Gee pat , you jackass , maybe we can’t afford to murder every Muslim on the face of the earth.

My magic 8-ball predicts that Obama and the Capitol Hill Democrats will cave in; that the capitulation will be even worse than any expected; that there will be an intense but brief burst of outrage at places like MoveOn and Daily Kos; and that after the outrage spends itself, we’ll hear an unending series of exhortations to quiet down and get to work because we have a Really Important Election coming up in less than two years.

Let the country default. And this from a U.S. Senator. What could go wrong with that idea? Hmmm let’s see. First we lay off congress, since they can’t help. Then we lay off the armed forces. That’s pretty good. But how do we bring them home? O,just leave them there to fend for themselves. Then what are those departments Perry wanted to trash? Yeah they can go. And the IRS they can go too. And who needs money? So the fed can close up shop. Who needs ATMs? This will work out just fine, I’m sure of it.

Sure that could work out too. But I like the default option better. It’s, oh, sexier.

The cognitive dissonance between FDL venues on this outcome is very striking today.

I know! Let’s put Walker and Bogg in the Thunderdome.

He is right about one thing. Obama will most certainly cave. So put in your order for cuts now.

Naomi Klein’s shock doctrine ad nauseum is what this is. Seems to me like the shock is starting to wear off. Even Obama partisans from just a couple of months ago are disgusted by him.

I find that refreshing.

Obama’s not caving. He’s doing exactly what he wants to do. But it’s nice to see you say that.

Tbogg is probably a very nice person but he’s EXACTLY what I mean by a person treating politics like it is a football game.

Yesterday’s outcome was not the worst in the world but it was not by any means a victory for progressive values particularly when you parse Obama’s statements on Medicare’s effect on the deficit.

I don’t read tbogg; he seems like that yippy little dog down the street who won’t shut up

Yep he sure is and he got repugs right were he wants them. They’ll take the blame for something only he a demodog can do, take down the rest of Main Street for his ws puppet masters.

Tammy and bluedot I likem them both;)

Mike does a pretty good job on Shock Doctrine and what happening north.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/01/02/the-big-heist-in-the-great-white-north/

His classmates called him Pat Tumor, so now he gets even.

Obama is A CIA plant, a droid, if you will. I have no other explanation for him, other than that he is a natural dickhead and that he fears the Cheney.

Obama will most certainly cave

it’s not a cave though, it’s his opus, it’s what he planned before he took office, he said so himself

“Sen. Pat Toomey (R-PA) is calling on his fellow Republicans to let the country default if necessary to force Obama to agree to cuts.”
__

That would be a violation of his Oath, over which I would have him impeached. It is the constitutional obligation of Congress alone to ensure that “the public debt…shall not be questioned.” Forget all this gimmicky crap about the 14 Trillion Dollar Coin ordered by the President. There is not one word in the Constitution giving the president authority to borrow.

In contrast to

ARTICLE I, Section 8

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States; …

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures; …

History is prologue.

My prediction -

Repubs jam Obama at debt ceiling vote so Obama agrees to cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid “to pay for” the Bush tax cuts that he just turned into the Obama/Biden tax cuts.

After all, here’s what the NY Times called them:

The full Bush-era tax cuts were the single biggest contributor to the deficit over the past decade, reducing revenues by about $1.8 trillion between 2002 and 2009.*

But what’s the harm – after all the tax cuts worked really well the first time around -why not do it again? So who needs that silly government safety net anyways since we’re all so wealthy now?

Ridiculous. Young SkyWalker would instantly vanquish the decrepit Praise Tboww! aka “the PragProgs’ Ross Douthat.” (P.s., a PragProg is an emo Obot grifter.)

Karl rove loves everything o delivered to him and georgie, just loves it to death !!!!!!

BULLSHIT WARNING > It’s the wars and the military mafia PERIOD ,,,,, It sucks a country dry.

Copy that

Copy that copy.

This was reported on http://www.thenation.com on December 22nd and it is in regards to David Koch (of Koch Brothers fame) taking aim now at Hurricane Sandy victims:

“…Earlier this week, AFP (Americans for Prosperity), which is chaired by Koch and believed to be financed by several other plutocrats from the New York City region, released a letter warning members of Congress not to vote for the proposed federal aid package for victims of the storm that swept New Jersey, New York City and much of the surrounding area in October. An announcement on the group’s website says that the vote next week for the Sandy aid package will be a “key vote”—meaning senators who support sending money for reconstruction could face an avalanche of attack ads in their next election. Already, opposition to the bill is growing, although it passed one procedural hurdle last night….”

I would like to say “you couldn’t pay me enough to read shiT Bagg“, but as I’m unemployed and broke, that’s patently untrue. However, until the actual bribes start coming in, my few remaining shreds of sanity keep me from even contemplating that vile, unfunny, condescending, bootlicking hack’s existence, much less acknowledging his continued pollution and corrosion of this site by ever clicking on his page.

So I had no idea that he was praising Obama for (once again) giving the 1% a mere 99% of what they wanted. I’m shocked, I tell you! Shocked!

(Or…not.)

Please envision your best Artie Johnson impression)

So, if he planned to cave then it’s not a cave.

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Interrrestink. But schtoooopid.

Despite all the folderol, it seems they’ve actually kicked the can down the road–again. Wasn’t the whole point of the fiscal cliff to force Congress to come up with needed reforms? Military and spy funding is gone from the discussion, and one hears otherwise bright people say things like, “We all know entitlements must be addressed”. Maybe the Market is right….they’re rallying like crazy today.

Excellent!!! If we take away the social safety net, won’t be so many people dependent on it. /s

YOu don;t hear “folderol” much anymore. But it fits.

Are you sure there arent’t two “l”s at the end?

No, one L.,I’m glad someone noticed.

Just wait until he votes to cut SS and Medicare.

Toomey will be a ONE TERM SENATOR.

Oh wait, he won’t have to vote yes the Ds will cut it without the Rs voting for it in the Senate.

The military is our comparative advantage, comrade. Without them, crapitalism is a goner.

i can’t stick around long, have a meeting to go to, but I just want to say you are right about the Dims folding on any SS, Medicare, and Medicaid cuts and O is already laying the groundwork for it today.

Hmm …

So you are suggesting, Teddy, that the FDL community is feeling the discomfort of simultaneously holding two conflicting “beliefs”, or perceived “perspectives”?

Perhaps, it is really a form of Cognitive Irrelevance, suggesting that the two “competing” apparent “cogitations” have nothing (or as little as possible, except for the unpleasant name-calling and the hysterical claims of false equivalencies) to do with each other? The “anti-propinquity effect”, as it were, as in … whom do we love to hate? Why, those “stupid” blankety blank blank blanks who are “close” enough to argue with, since arguing with strangers can quickly get out of reasonable and civil hand, leading who knows where. (Could it be that the FDL “family” has unresolved sibling “rivalries”, which some of the sisters and brothers take pretty or even too damned seriously, and even far too personally?)

I guess we’ll have to dig up Leon Festinger to get an unbiased opinion.

;~DW

At some point the progressives have to stop acting like doormats. When they do, the Democrats in leadership will have to start taking them seriously. Alas, I am not sure the new crop of Democrats is strong enough.

The fight coming in the next several months will make this latest little dust-up on Capitol Hill look like floating down a lazy river on a warm, summer afternoon. It’s gonna get ugly. The grownups need to start laying down the law immediately – like now. This teabagger shit is way out of control and sane people across the spectrum need to state it – loudly and repeatedly. While I’m not sure shame will work on a bunch of crazy fucks, it certainly can’t hurt. As for Toomey, I’m not sure his corporate masters will take too kindly to Toomey and his teabagger buddies screwing around with the full faith and credit of the US Government. If and when it starts to affect their business, they’re likely to get pissed.

Personally, I think Jane likes to have “both sides present an argument” and allow people to choose more than one direction approach. Although Tbogg’s “arguments” are more like namecalling and belittling than actually presenting an argument IMO. His threads are either for people who want someone else to tell them that they’re smarter than other people or for people who think differently with extremely thick skin.

BTW, exposing my nerd street cred …

Doesn’t Pat Toomey look like the love child of a Talosian and a human?

I consider that you’ve well got the “spirit” of it, cwaltz.

Namaste

;~DW

Well, given that bog(g) is English slang for toilet, I suggest Mr T’s continuing comedic ‘bit’ is aptly named.

Boggy produces the “two minute hate” channel.

The unremarked root cause for slicing and dicing the safety net ,and making valid projections for being unable to fund SS and Med. liabilities is thwarting economic expansion via Keynesian stimuli .Virtually everyone here has been bamboozled into a false dichotomy of tax hikes and spending cuts ,both of which are monopoly forms of economic constriction pitched by the benefactors of zero-sum extraction .Once again ,Wall St. spin doctors have mass-manipulated the masses via a corporate media universe .

I invite anyone ,or everyone ,to challenge my contention that it’s either Keynes or loss of all social insurance liabilities to enrich Wall St .

For Gawd’s sake, comrade, even crapitalists don’t believe in Keynes any more.

Given the reality, defogger, Keynes does not go far enough, indeed, as you imply, the MOTU will not permit, at this empire end-game of capitalism, any such thing to occur.

What will be required is the people demanding, insisting, that their will and their genuine needs be heard and met, that popular will and honest necessity determine policy …which require nothing less than true, participatory democracy. Feudalistic demagoguery or actual democracy, in society, in the workplace, and at home … those are the ONLY real choices.

Serfdom or actual democracy. There is no “middle” which will be “given” to or permitted to actually serve the many …

It is far too late for any hope that the political class will come to the aid and comfort of the people.

DW

High five, comrade Bartoo.

Hi DW ,I agree with your entire admonition ,which I ‘m quite sure you realize , since we are generally on the same wave length ,but my challenge was to get this FDL thread on the right track:economic expansion .Some are in denial while others are just dullards ,but even those on here for reasons of sport or loneliness ,should not be allowed to traffic in this no-expansion bullshit .

DW ,your thinking is far more evolved than most here ,whom I sincerely believe lack the political awareness to even realize that Keynesianism has undergone a smear campaign,and are too intellectually fucking lazy to ponder over its expansionary replacement .I agree with Veblin who made a case that business is the antagonist of production ,and makes itself necessary by convincing labor it provides exclusive intellect .However ,if the general public doesn’t hit a wall in a popular Keynesian mindset ,then what makes them believe another economic paradigm of our bent isn’t required ? I want to play the Keynesian card to show it cannot work in a neoliberal world of corporate governance .

I respect your opinion ,and you might not agree with my strategic tact ,but we are singing from the same hymnal insofar as our shared belief on the crisis at hand .

Expansionary replacement, comrade? I don’t think that’s where Veblen’s head would be at in present circumstance. I think the American might have even considered the Brit a fraud.

He was, wasn’t he? Sort of torn between two worlds, no?

Hi Ludwig ,you are completely wrong .The biggest threat to the royalist narrative is Keynesianism .I f you think they don’t believe in it , or mock it because it is ineffectual .then you bought into the CNBC hype .You are generally a good bullshit detector ,but these are very smart capitalists ,and I’m sure you will do better next time .

You correctly made a case earlier that our military is what keeps capitalism afloat ,and while this war economy was being developed ,Keynesianism was the darling of Wall St. .Got it ? The safety net was lauded when competing ideologies were in play .Got it ? We are now a superpower in a unipolar world ,so Keynesianism is being assailed as the antiquated preserve of economic outcasts .Now ,if you wish to make me into a Krugman acolyte ,I know you are just being frisky .I’ll check back tomorrow .

Veblin was an American of either Swedish or Norwegian extract .I want to eat ,so I don;t want to make an anchronistic argument about expansion if he were alive .Actually I don’t care about expansion ,just production ,but once again ,I don;t wish to confuse conceptual and empirical thinking .Theoretically expansion would not be part of my model ,but in the here and now ,if there is not economic expansion ,there will be a horrific outcome ,maybe another holocaust.Maybe you are a catastrophist ,as an American ,I certainly am not .

Veblin was torn between nothing ,one can be a radical and not be a Marxist . good night .

The most credible threat but not the biggest. My ideas from CNBC? That’s some good shit you’re smokin’.

I tell ya again, they tried privatized Keynesianism and da shit blew up. Now they’re goin’ for good ole rent extraction. Nothing ideological, comrade. Just bidness.

C’mon, Krudman’s a made man. Now why would I make you his acolyte?

Here’s sumptin appropriate, comrade:

The process of exploitation leaves purchasing power in the hands of a proletariat that enables it to purchase only an inadequate portion of the total products just turned out. The large remainder of the output must be fashioned and purchased by capitalists as part of the accumulation process. There is a continual threat, therefore, of too heavy a burden being placed on capitalist accumulation, a ‘burden’ that stems from the exploitation of labor. …

‘Underconsumption’ does not indicate that during phases of rapid accumulation and prosperity [the ‘boom’ portion of the business cycle] wages are depressed. … [T]he opposite occurs. But, while workers in these exhilaration phases are thus entitled to raise their consumption levels somewhat [because of their increased wages], it is never enough to lighten significantly the ‘burden’ on the capitalist class, which is soon made intolerable by a falling rate of profit. Thus, accumulation slows down until the previously favorable conditions for capitalists have been restored; and this involves principally the destruction of capital values and the replenishment of the reserve army of labor.

Ya see, Keynesianism is supposed to prime the pump, or at least keep the crapitalists from killing off da labor supply until their new bout of exhilaration. But da Amerkan crapitalists have been skimming off that pump priming for years … it don’t work no mo.

So you see, what you take, in your superior wisdom, to be the operation of fools and knaves is rather the endgame of a foolish and knavish system.

Ah … no catastrophist. An alarmist, yes.

Expansion not necessary or is necessary, you say?

Not Veblen, Keynes … he was … ambi-valent, shall we say.

Ludwig ,g as privatized Keynesyet even with my superior wisdom ,it appears you wish to squander another year attempting to best me .There is no such thinmulusg as privatized Keynesianism .even if it implies monetary stimulus ,it wouldneed to be publicly orchestrated .Whomever you are quoting reflects ,not their scholarship ,but your sense of it being appropriate to counter my contention that if a centralized economy radically constricts for an extended period there will be horrific consequences .

If you wish to argue from a Marxian perspective ,your reference should be capital dispossession ,not accumulation .It appears you are confusing capitalist production ,maximal extraction for surpluses ,with my vision of labor production in small-scale collectives via which the management duties are hired .

If you believe we don’t need well-crafted public consumption for expanding jobs ,then are you proposing we can adapt to impoverishment ,or there is a better means of propelling a virtuous spiral of jobs ,consumption ,and the tax receipts from both to eliminate the budget shortfalls that are now the casus belli for class warfare .

You need a counter-proposal to prove me wrong .Once again ,you appear to be flailing wildly .

Ah, but all you would have to do to prevent your pocket of ignorance from showing is to google “privatized Keynesianism”, comrade. It’s a very useful concept though difficult for the less agile of mind. Note that this idea long predates your warning about depression being bad for proles.

You will note that above quote references capital destruction and is from a Professor Emiritus @ Stanford who researched “Marxian theory, [and] Soviet and Chinese economics”. Perhaps you have superior credentials to him too. Bichler & Nitzan also identify “differential accumulation” as a target of crapitalists in recession and depression; there their strategy is lose the least.

The concept of differential accumulation is part of a new approach to the study of capitalism. This approach, first developed by Shimshon Bichler and Jonathan Nitzan, emphasizes the primacy of power rather than of consumption and production. The emphasis on power accentuates the centrality of relative rather than absolute measures and of disaggregate rather than aggregate methods. It focuses attention not on the quest for profit maximization by capital in general, but on the drive for differential accumulation by dominant capital in particular.

You also should be aware that David Harvey analyzed the concept of “accumulation by dispossession” deployed by neoliberalism. So, thanks for the tip but these Marxists have an adequate handle on capitalist strategy in crisis.

You’re mistaken about the casus belli for class warfare, comrade. Budget shortfalls, which crapitalists have caused, are a tactic for destroying “excess” idle labor. Good luck with your vision, but if you don’t understand well how your enemy operates, you’re no good as Révolutionnaire du Peuple.

And your concept is still foggy, comrade. It seems you are back to expansion, what with the virtuous spiral of jobs & consumption. But, as comrade Bartoo tried to warn you above, Keynesianism will no longer do. Remain in your cloud if you must, comrade. There’s only so much we can say.

Yet ,you proffer no alternative to economic expansion for crisis prevention now ,on Planet Earth .You have no understanding of differential accumulation so why are you advancing it ? B& N make a very impressive case that capitalism has no connection to economic value ,i.e.,capital now symbolizes raw power .They make no case that emphasizes the primacy of power over production and consumption ,except in the case of monopoly as it reverts to a feudal ethos of taking as opposed to making ,i.e.differential accumulation .

You must be obsessed with me to be awaiting my response since yesterday .Unlike you ,I actually know this stuff and don’t need to spend hours trying to google a stumper . We all know David Harvey ,and few would argue that anyone has come close to a Marxist critique on capital ,yet you seem intellectually or psychologically incapable of dealing with real-world situations that ,as I noted yesterday ,require empirical melioration ,not theory .To be so impressed with academic pedigree tells me more about your lack of forthright candor than you might wish to reveal .

I will give you five minutes tomorrow if you put forward a proposal for dealing with the economic crisis at hand .I
could make a valid argument that public debt is a fraud ,an artificial construct for northward wealth redistribution ,Such auto-erotic adductions might make me look informed ,but they have no political legs .If you continue this artful dodging of a counter-proposal with political feasibly ,then I will ignore your comment .

good evening

Obviously, comrade, if you were to use your superior intelligence and knowledge, you would know that expansion is the best political panders can do. Redistribution, public ownership, and de-financialization are needed for a path w/o genocide.

I hope you don’t expect to be able to achieve even the pander’s best because that requires some expressive coherence, comrade. I am afraid you are in a conundrum. So I will continue to discuss what is necessary and you can continue with what is impossible.

I have to admit, you were making progress, but, well, you’re regressing.

Keynesianism is dead. Wake up, comrade.

So you think redistribution is antithetical to Keynesianism ? You think my vision of non-heirarchial collectivism in a decentralized context is different than that of David Harvey ? You don’t believe that deficits/debt are the pretext for wielding the class warfare club of austerity and its corollaries that empower rent-seeking monopolists ? And who on the left ,anywhere ,believe in a finance -navigated economy This is where I entered this deal by saying I admired Veblin’s maxim that finance was the nemesis of industry ,i.e.,business against production of wealth .

Ludwig ,you are knowingly or unknowingly ,arguing against Krugman and the liberal class .So as you chase your tail in some circular maze of incongruent reason ,I’m slipping out of this web of nonsense ,since your Krugman straw guy means I’m either dealing with a mentally disturbed person or someone who is very self-conscious about having a lack of formal education .I hope it’s the latter ,because some of our best thinkers are auto-didactics .

O my goodness, comrade. You are just catching on that I’m arguing against pandering liberals and their Krudmen (are you now damning me for iconoclasm, comrade?).

I am surprised that you cannot grasp privatized Keynesianism or that the rejection of Keynes (which you must misunderestimate as a smear) has non-ideological or pragamatic support.

Veblen, who despised the pecuniary obsession of businessmen, also thought that inequality made Amerkan proles poorer even though they were materially better off. Perhaps you can navigate from there to the idea that expansion is not what Amerkans need; reduction of inequality is.

Here’s hoping you’ve got a decent compass, comrade engineer.