This shouldn’t be that hard to understand. Obamacare/Romneycare is better than what we had before. A public option would have been better. Single payer, or the French system where people can buy private insurance in addition to the great state system, would be better still. But moving from a worse system to a better system is progress, and it has helped a lot of people (including several members of my own family, who have insurance coverage only because of Obamacare).

Medicare is already single payer. Moving from single payer to a voucher system would be a giant step backward. Given that politics is the art of the possible, there isn’t anything inconsistent about the Democrats praising Obamacare and trashing the Ryan plan to voucherize Medicare. The former made things better (though not as much as the proponents say), the latter would make things worse.

People forget that both Social Security and Medicare started as more limited programs, that were gradually extended to reach more people and provide more benefits. FDL has a tendency to compare real programs with ideal programs, when the correct thing is to compare proposed programs with existing programs and see if things would get better (even marginally) or if they would get worse, and whether there is a path to further improvement. Otherwise we can all sit around being right and clever and smart and ineffective.

The real political malpractice was letting most of the good stuff wait until 2014, giving the Republicans multiple years to take shots at it. If it were all in effect, then we could keep pushing for the addition of a public option, and insurance companies would need to be on their best behavior to prevent it from coming about.

Good thread, Jon.

Actually, “the problem with” The PPACA is it was wisely designed to have a Public Option. But idiot voters elected corporatist Blue Dogs like Baucus.

O is selling trickle down and austerity. I’m not buying.

Obama is taken the weird position that being at the mercy of insurance companies at age 68 would be horrible but at age 64 it is great.

Talking out of both sides of his mouth at once is a learned skill.

As for his other assertions? Don’t hold you breath.

Not to mention a blue dog like O.

The problem is that Romney losing is a GOOD thing but Obama winning is a BAD thing.

I seem to recall something about a rock and hard place.

If Obama is still willing to raise Medicare eligibility age aren’t we moving slowly away from single payer? The ACA may be a Trojan Horse to eventually end Medicare.

“This shouldn’t be that hard to understand. Obamacare/Romneycare is better than what we had before.”

No, before President Catfood did this I wasn’t a serf to the insurance companies and the IRS didn’t work for the insurance companies.

“People forget that both Social Security and Medicare started as more limited programs, that were gradually extended to reach more people and provide more benefits.”

Not forgotten – those programs didn’t start out by turning people into serfs forced to buy corporate products or else the IRS would penalize them.

Baucus/Obama:
Handcuffs for Medicare for All advocates.
Handshakes for Billy Tauzin.
Medicare for All in Libby, Mt.
And now Romney is more of a Socialist than both of them.
Where’s an Asteroid when you really need one?

Medicare is already single payer. Moving from single payer to a voucher system would be a giant step backward.

Single payer might be a good thing, but as currently constructed, Medicare is unsustainable. Ryan thinks moving from single payer to a voucher system would lower costs because seniors would shop around for better insurance, lower cost medical procedures, etc. I’m not suggesting it’ll work, but staying the course is not an option.

Now, if you want to fix Medicare but keep it structurally as-is, all you have to do is raise payroll taxes a bit to pay for it. Problem solved.

Like basically all of Barry’s policies the rhetoric says one thing while cognitive reality says another. The entire purpose of Obamacare was to solidify the position of the massive rent takers in the system while convincing the rubes (Dimcraptic Tea Baggers) that the party was finally acting on an issue after decades of empty promises. Not a carrot, not a carrot on a stick, but a picture of a carrot on a stick.

I heard part of a “debate” between Glen Ford or The Black Agenda Report and Michael Eric Dyson on obama. Dyson’s view is that o has done wonderfully well given the repug obstruction. Ford shows how o has failed on many fronts. Ford says that black people need to pressure o to do the right thing. The problem with the “debate” is that in the end Dyson will vote for o, never in doubt, but Ford says that he also will vote for o because the scary repugs are too much to allow to be in power. Ford doesn’t say how he is going to put any pressure on o if he votes for him and o wins.

“Obamacare/Romneycare is better than what we had before.”

Really? It’s better to be forced to buy insurance whose co-pays I can’t afford?

I know, I know, Medicaid will be expanded. Except in the conservative states where it won’t. And this is what we got with the White House and both houses of Congress under total control.

That’s rich, shop around from a price fixing cartel for your insurance. Medicare is “unsustainable” for the same reason the entire system is “unsustainable”, the health care system in this country is set up to extract rents, not to deliver health care.

Obama is taken the weird position that being at the mercy of insurance companies at age 68 would be horrible but at age 64 it is great.

Did he say that “at 64 it is great”? I think that’s bit nitpicky for what was essentially an infomercial and not a plan. The job of an informercial is to emphasize contrasts. It did.

We all here know that Medicare for All (or VA for All) provides the best solution for health care in the US. We still face the problem that too many people still think that they want to “get government out of my Medicare.” And too many employers want to hold on to those golden handcuffs that allow them to suppress wages and salaries. And the public has not completely come around to the idea that raising taxes to support what they collectively want is just normal government.

We have a huge political job to do too.

Ryan thinks moving to a voucher system will lower costs because he’s deluded by his ideology. Insurance companies take 20% in overhead, Medicare takes less than 5, so at minimum switching to vouchers costs 15% more unless either care is denied in more cases or seniors pay more out of pocket.

The payroll tax can be raised, but the Medicare Part D rule forbidding the government from negotiating with drug companies over prices can be repealed and cost controls can be imposed, so that patients still get the same care for the same amount of money but drug companies and hospitals can’t extract unlimited revenue from the public.

Just the fact of 85% medical cost ratio minimum makes it better than before. “Better than before” is a low hurdle.

As I get older, I see the positives of moving forward when possible,
even if it is not the absolute best path, it has seemed to me over life we let too many chances to take positve action pass by due to endless debate, indecision and fear that the chosen path may not be the absolute best path.
I am glad that we have at least moved in the general direction of choice, and am willing to continue to zero in on the goal by making choices, changes and adjustments as we move in the chosen direction instead of staying still and complaining that we are not perfect. ty

Insurance companies take 20% in overhead,

The ACA provides a framework for lowering that. Just slip in a change to the legislation that raises the medical cost ratio from 80% to 95%. Fight that political fight.

There are lots of administrative and legislative tweaks that can bring the cost down.

But we are distracting from the campaign to use the impending individual mandate as a strategic tool to make the political argument for Medicare for All. National Nurses United is out there pushing Medicare for all. They need some additional help and coalitions.

Stop waiting for the President to wave the magic wand of the “most powerful leader on the planet”. That only works if you want drone strikes. Not so much on domestic policy unless you want bailouts.

as Bubba said the other night…..arithmetic…..a good example of the rod serling world the current republicans inhabit, age old tools like math, emperical observation and common sense have taken a subservient role to fear, hate and the rest of the human foibles that have been our heritage.ty

well said,indeed,unrebuttable.

The simple point is if you believe making people buying insurance on an exchange puts you at the mercy of insurance companies then by definition Obama put people at the mercy of insurance companies

Medicare is “unsustainable” for the same reason the entire system is “unsustainable”, the health care system in this country is set up to extract rents, not to deliver health care.

You can go back to the 1920′s if you want a doctor with a black bag in every town who charged based on what you could afford. Of course life expectancy was 53 so you aren’t likely to need your Medicare anyway.

The other “simple point” may be that Mr Walker is very emotionally attached to his hyperbolic, imaginary and fearful scenarios, and cannot currently see outside of his self created box..ty

Where insurance exchanges currently exist, they have done nothing to make insurance more affordable. There simply are not enough products available. Plus, the insurance companies can tweak coverage aspects (especially pharma coverages) from year to year.

Most importantly, consumers do not usually know what parts of the care package they will actually need in the upcoming year. How much will that $150 per day in the hospital actually mean to me, versus that $25 deductable for each primary care visit, versus the $45 I will have to pay for Metoprolol Succ** vrs. the $4 I would be paying for the other form of Metop** (which one is the doctor prescribing, anyway?) .. etc.

You don’t have diabetes today you are not smart enough to guess you will have it 4 mos. from now, much less guess what that will mean in terms of what insurance plan you should be signing up for vrs. premiums.

So people using exchanges tend to wind up with craappy cheap(er) plans, not what is actually best for them. And the exchanges do not actually do anything to control the cost of medical care.

Insurance as set up today is a cost plus system. They throw their 10 or 15% profit every year (or 3% as they say after gaming the numbers) on top of their costs – cost of medical care, cost of processing. Insurance companies actually have no incentive to bring medical costs down and at the top they do know this.

ACA was one of the two biggest crimes Obama has inflicted on us since election. He has broke all his important campaign promises and deserves to not be the most important man in the world.

I will not vote for a “lesser” effective evil so I am voting third party.

Don’t forget Obama’s best friend Bill Clinton put his arm around Paul Ryan and complimented him for his plans for Medicare.

The problem, though, is President Obama has a creditability problem in the way he attacks it.

That’s “credibility,” not “creditability.”

and don’t forget Obama went on national TV and told Ryan this his plan had merit!

“Ryan thinks moving to a voucher system will lower costs because he’s deluded by his ideology. Insurance companies take 20% in overhead”

Obama and the Democrats set the very issue you raise it in stone that the insurance companies take 20%…that’s Obamacare that you’re talking about! I’m no fan of Ryancare, but using an Obamacare regulation as a defense of Obama just doesn’t fly.

More propaganda via factual manipulation. If you take out infant mortality, average life span is about the same today as it was 150 years ago.

Thank you.

I like this Jon.

Obama is taken the weird position that being at the mercy of insurance companies at age 68 would be horrible but at age 64 it is great

Medicare is for people over 65 years of age. To make a comparison that the ACA does the same thing as the Romney/Ryan is just plain RIDICULOUS! Currently those uninsured under 65 get NOTHING. Getting credits for insurance is a big improvement. Under the Romney/Ryan plan, those under 55 today get a discount coupon for their insurance after they turn 65, before that they get NOTHING!

What is this? Take a shot at OBAMA day? Was his speech not progressive enough for you?

It is true that Medicare costs are unstainable, but it has nothing to do with Medicare. Medicare is much more cost efficient than private insurance. Why do you think the Republican refused to let Medicare negotiate the price of prescription drugs? The problem is a broken healthcare system. The Republicans offer nothing to curb healthcare cost. They keep mumbling about allowing insurance companies to sell across state lines. This will do nothing but produce crappy insurance policies that provide skimpy benefits. To the Republicans that solves the problem because it will lower the number of uninsured.

The ACA takes baby steps toward curbing health care costs, but at least its a start.

This is probably the most dishonest blog I have seen on this site. I thought it was only Republicans that did this kind of hit job. You should send a copy to the Romney campaign. Maybe, they’ll make a commerical out of it.

Stop waiting for the President to wave the magic wand of the “most powerful leader on the planet”

I don’t think that’s what single-payer advocates expect. What we wanted was for single-payer to be given fair consideration in the debate. Obama used his position to put his thumb on the scale and prevented single payer from even being discussed! Then he told us that he would give us the public option instead. Many of us considered this an acceptable, if not entirely palatable compromise. And then he even took that away, cynically trading it for campaign cash and a phony promise of detente from big pharma.

Medicare is for people over 65 years of age. To make a comparison that the ACA does the same thing as the Romney/Ryan is just plain RIDICULOUS!

No, it’s the artificial distinction between people who are under 65 as opposed to those who are 65 and older that’s ridiculous. Don’t try claiming that people getting health insurance from employers is a valid reason for this distinction. Employer-based health insurance is a bad idea and furthermore the percentage of people covered by it is declining and the ACA will probably accelerate that decline and put people at the mercy of the insurance industry. Also, many people are facing steadily rising cost-sharing and co-pays from employer plans.

The ACA takes baby steps toward curbing health care costs

Really? What were those?

HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGES – That’s what the Ryan Medicare voucher plan does.

TAXES ON HIGH-PRICED HEALTH PLANS – Seems like adding taxes will make things more expensive.

INDEPENDENT PAYMENT ADVISORY BOARD – Establishing an Independent Payment Advisory Board with the intent of forcing policy-makers to limit Medicare cost increases – Sounds like we’ll have to pass more “Doc Fixes” to bump the prices back up every year.

PROVIDER INCENTIVES – Incentivize hospitals to promote high-quality care and avoid unnecessary readmissions, specifically, Medicare payments will
be reduced for hospitals with high rates of potentially preventable readmissions. – I would think it would incentivize them to not take Medicare patients in the first place.

PREVENTION AND WELLNESS PROMOTION – The ACA adds an annual wellness visit to the guaranteed Medicare benefit package, which the CBO estimates will cost $3.6 billion over 10 years with no savings. – Oops.

And on and on. Baby steps indeed.

Gee, the ACA was not what progressives wanted. You think I didn’t know that? Sometimes you have to take what you can get. Were you going to get single payer? NO! Were you going to get a public option? Probably not, the insurance lobby would have gone all out to kill it.

Teddy Kennedy had a chance to do a healthcare deal with Nixon in the 70′s and he let it go because he wanted much more than Nixon was offering. He regretted it until his dying day.

The ACA is a start. Why do you think the Republicans are willing to do anything to kill it? They know that once its in place, it will be impossible to derail. Just like Social Security and Medicare it will expand and be improved.

If you think the Republicans will give any subsidies to those under 65, you’re INSANE! What they will do is decrease the value of the vouchers for those over 65 and means test them until they become worthless. Then they drop Medicare all together because it will only subsidize the poor.

This is a poor battle to fight. The battle to fight is to improve the ACA. Writing a blog that says well it’s not as good as Medicare for those under 65, so Obama can’t really critizes the Romney/Ryan plan is RIDICULOUS!

You missed one. How about covering a lot of the currently uninsured allows them to get preventive care and prevents emergency room visits and catches illnesses before they require expensive hospital stays at the government’s expense.

Instead of shouting at the rain, maybe it would be better to expend you’re energy figuring out how to start improving the ACA.

“Just like Social Security and Medicare it will expand and be improved.”

With the looming bipartisan efforts to “strengthen” social security, I don’t think that statement is particularly consoling.

Were you going to get single payer? NO! Were you going to get a public option? Probably not, the insurance lobby would have gone all out to kill it.

Well it was a sure thing we weren’t going to get single payer after Obama refused to let it even be discussed. No I didn’t think we would get it but if it had been used as a negotiating position we would have gotten a much, much better deal than the what the ACA turned out to be. Many single-payer advocates, myself included, thought the ACA with the public option was an acceptable compromise. But you don’t start out by offering your compromise position unless you either 1) the most inept negotiator in the world or 2) a fucking, slimy, weasel scumbag who wants to sell out the folks he’s supposedly negotiating for. The public option sell out was most likely planned in advance as you, Mr. Obamapologist have conceded.

Teddy Kennedy had a chance to do a healthcare deal with Nixon in the 70′s and he let it go because he wanted much more than Nixon was offering. He regretted it until his dying day.

But Teddy Kennedy did not start out by offering a compromise position that he planned to sell out the first chance he got. Not comparable situations at all since Obama, unlike Teddy Kennedy, does not and never has believed in single-payer.

The ACA is a start. Why do you think the Republicans are willing to do anything to kill it? They know that once its in place, it will be impossible to derail. Just like Social Security and Medicare it will expand and be improved.

Keep dreaming pal. The ACA will suck all of the oxygen out of the health care issue for at least a decade. It doesn’t even take effect for two more years and the focus will be on implementing the exchanges and other details rather than improving the big picture. And no, I do not trust the fucking, slimy scumbag weasel whose biggest wet dream is cutting SS and increasing the SS and Medicare eligibility age to “expand and improve” the ACA.

If you think the Republicans will give any subsidies to those under 65, you’re INSANE!

That’s funny, I don’t recall saying anything of the kind. Oh, sorry I forgot – you’re a slave to the false dichotomy that the only two choices are being butffucked by Obama and being buttfucked by Romney.

This is a poor battle to fight. The battle to fight is to improve the ACA. Writing a blog that says well it’s not as good as Medicare for those under 65, so Obama can’t really critizes the Romney/Ryan plan is RIDICULOUS!

No, it’s a great fight to fight. And I didn’t write the blog (although I agree with it) so don’t complain to me. It’s those of you Obama-fellators who are RIDICULOUS and INSANE. Not the rest of us. No go on back to the Great Orange Satan where you belong.

Totally agree. This group has been bitterly dissapoited that our country did not get the Public Option. One step at a time.

We just saw a 3 year old girl who’s Health Insurance Maximum was nearing so when she needs her next Heart Surgery in the next few months, there’s no way her family could afford it. Selling their home, going bankrupt would not help.

It’s easy to sit when you and your families are safe as compared to those with Pre-Existing Conditions and there are Thousands in our country who this Affordable Care Act Has Saved thousands of lives.

Thousands who couldn’t get any Health Insurance with Pre-Existing Conditions, no they can.

I find it Selfish for those who think only of themselves and forget how BLESSED they are not to have to experience the hardship and lives lost that other families are experiencing.

Perhaps before always bad mouthing policies that are implemented to help Struggling Families when yours is Safe, Warm, and you have that Job, stop and think of someone else.

Probably many on this blog profess to be Christian, however, they fell to show they are Christian by responses.

We are a country that looks out for each other, at least the majority. No one gets everything they want in life or politics.

Rather than bitching an moaning while those policies you hate are helping other families an saving lives of children and sdults, stop and just be Grateful that your family is so blessed.

Your premium might be a little bit higher, but thousands of families yes Sick Families could not Get Any Health Insurance no matter what the price.

Comparing the Affordable Health Care act to Medicare is no comparison

Finally, you are Misleading Seniors!

It’s a fact that Mit Romney and Ryan plan to turn Medicare into a Voucher System and kill Medicare

It’s a fact that Millions of Seniors cannot afford to Pay thousands of dollars for their care.

So consider those impacted negatively by you Blogs……….Seniors, Seniors and you all have Seniors in your families.

Don’t mislead our Seniors, it’s wrong, and you have no plans of giving them the money that $6,000+they will have to pay Out Of Pocket.

Be more considerate than just Blogging, be considerate of others.

Good comment. It is fashionable to be the cynic right now. Plays into the elect Romney/Ryan theme. If one is 60-65 or has any kind of health issue, premiums will be unaffordable. The little girl at the convention who is alive due to Obama care and would not be without it due to the ceiling on the cost of her care. The country does not want to talk about pretty little girls dead from lack of health care even though it happens often. The ACA does change the profit limit for health insurance companies which is why many people received rebate checks in the last month and got free preventative care last month. Change is not instant and may not be everything the dreamers wanted, but we know how the old way worked. Obama’s mother died partly from lack of health care.

No American should ever have to spend their golden years at the mercy of insurance companies.

Too bad Obama does not feel the same about us not in our “golden years.”

i would say number ’2′

wierd that all the o-bots are all crying that single.payer/pub.option won’t work .. can’t work .. won’t help yadda yadda

fact is it does work in every other industrial country where health care outcomes exceed the US’s in every category, people live longer, babies die less, citizens pay(significantly) less and all citizens get what every humanbeing deserves as a basic human right – health care

why you o-bots flacking for the horrible insurance industry? you all know that obama had that industry write his health care (sic) plan for him – that, just like the reality that single payer is better and more humane, are simply indisputable facts – as is the fact that your industrialist supporter lied about the pub.option to get elected ..

obama – the lovable liar

when i speak to my grandchildren i will be able to say that the government of my time thought it was more important to prop up the immoral insurance industry than it is to take care of its sick children

“Probably not, the insurance lobby would have gone all out to kill it”

Just because you choose to empower corporate lobbyists, it doesn’t mean anyone else here is going to conspire in that. Democrats whoring themselves out to corporate lobbyists is precisely the reason to protest and criticize, rather than just put our heads down and shuffle along. ACA was 100% on the Democrats and if they sell themselves out to the highest bidder that is shame on them, not shame on me for not clapping louder as they sell me down their river.

“Perhaps before always bad mouthing policies that are implemented to help Struggling Families when yours is Safe, Warm, and you have that Job, stop and think of someone else.”

Why do you presume to know about the lives of those you disagree with? Did you try and silence criticism of Bush policies that were supposedly implemented some group or do you only have that no criticism standard for Democratic policies?

“It is fashionable to be the cynic right now. Plays into the elect Romney/Ryan theme.”

Yeah, Romney/Ryan are just so fashionable at FDL /s

Too bad this article doesn’t mention that Obamacare is strictly a compromise inflicted on us by Republicans and Dixiecrats. The Democratic base would have been happy to see Medicare for all passed.

Why don’t you blame LBJ for not having Medicare cover everyone?