Ladies and gentlemen, your Progressive Caucus leadership:
Washington, D.C.– Rep. Raúl M. Grijalva, co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, today released the following statement on the emerging debt deal:
“This deal trades peoples’ livelihoods for the votes of a few unappeasable right-wing radicals, and I will not support it. Progressives have been organizing for months to oppose any scheme that cuts Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security, and it now seems clear that even these bedrock pillars of the American success story are on the chopping block. Even if this deal were not as bad as it is, this would be enough for me to fight against its passage.
This deal does not even attempt to strike a balance between more cuts for the working people of America and a fairer contribution from millionaires and corporations. The very wealthy will continue to receive taxpayer handouts, and corporations will keep their expensive federal giveaways. Meanwhile, millions of families unfairly lose more in this deal than they have already lost. I will not be a part of it.
Republicans have succeeded in imposing their vision of a country without real economic hope. Their message has no public appeal, and Democrats have had every opportunity to stand firm in the face of their irrational demands. Progressives have been rallying support for the successful government programs that have meant health and economic security to generations of our people. Today we, and everyone we have worked to speak for and fight for, were thrown under the bus. We have made our bottom line clear for months: a final deal must strike a balance between cuts and revenue, and must not put all the burden on the working people of this country. This deal fails those tests and many more.
The Democratic Party, no less than the Republican Party, is at a very serious crossroads at this moment. For decades Democrats have stood for a capable, meaningful government – a government that works for the people, not just the powerful, and that represents everyone fairly and equally. This deal weakens the Democratic Party as badly as it weakens the country. We have given much and received nothing in return. The lesson today is that Republicans can hold their breath long enough to get what they want. While I believe the country will not reward them for this in the long run, the damage has already been done.
A clean debt ceiling vote was the obvious way out of this, and many House Democrats have been saying so. Had that vote failed, the president should have exercised his Fourteenth Amendment responsibilities and ended this manufactured crisis.
This deal is a cure as bad as the disease. I reject it, and the American people reject it. The only thing left to do now is repair the damage as soon as possible.”
Yesterday Grijalva was perfectly willing to hand over his Congressional authority to a new Catfood II Super Congress to slash Social Security and Medicare when he vote for the all-cuts Reid bill:
When it comes back as the McConnell-Obama bill with the GOP’s blessing they won’t need his vote any more, however, so now he can shake his fist in defiance.
I rest my case.





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The only major difference between the Reid bill and the McConnell-Obama bill that anyone has reported is the trigger:
How he could vote for one yesterday, but shake his fist in rage at the other today, is something of a mystery.
It’s easy to make speeches.
Still, I wouldn’t entirely write off the House Democratic progressives either. The House is going to be hammered in the next elections: I can’t see any way not. The Progressive Caucus members know they’ve been thrown under the bus. Some of them are probably going to be angry enough to do something about it.
If so it’s out of pure expediency.
You can’t vote for this one day and then rage over virtually the same bill the next day and claim to be doing it out of principle.
Not expediency, Jane, cowardice. Pure cowardice.
PCPs are already operating in the red when they take Medicare patients. Doctor’s aren’t just being greedy pigs when they refuse to take medicare patients. The effect of this will be to ration care for the elderly by keeping them locked out of the system. The pool of PCPs willing to take medicare patients out of a sense of charity and duty is shrinking with every funding cut.
You’re right. I have to cede that point.
Progressives? Progressives? please wake up!
We progressives are acting like, Obama, Mitch, John, Harry, and Nancy just develop this plan to kill Social Security, Medicare, and Medicade? No, this was months in the making.
Once Obama got the Bush Tax Cuts pass which was name ” How to screw the USA middle class 199 plan”
Obama, and his bad of thugs have working on “How to Fuck Up Social Security and of course screw the middle class shock docrine plan number 200″
we are all watching the end of this movie.
A lot of people refuse to look at EVIL and Call it Evil, Obama, Nancy, Harry, Mitch, John, are all on the same team, and their team has 1 goal shit on the USA middle class.
Rep. Raúl M. Grijalva is just an actor! for LOL
Raul got the phone call from OBAMA go to the MEDIA and act like you hate fucking dumb americans. Bill Maher said it best A lot of Americans are Dumb.
Raul needs to work on his crying, we need to see tears, he still will not get an Oscar or Emmy, I just think it will play well in the WH movie theatre. Obama and Raul will share a big laugh about fucking the USA middle class.
Obama,Nancy, Harry, Raul, will all share a Cigar once the kill the new deal.
How many Dems stood up for the public option? ZERO
Bin Laden evil does not come close to the Evil we are watching in DC right now.
Wall Street and their puppets put this shock docrine plan together a long time ago.
I think they may have under estimated how this plays out?
First Black president kills Social Security?
First Black President kills Medicare?
Fist Black President kills Medicade?
Wall Street has not calculated how “race will factor into this”
People are saying Jedi, “race will not be a factor”
Jedi? racism died years a go O-Kay and Pigs Fly
I hope all of you are correct.
I see a lot of people feeling hopeless for a couple of days,
and this hopeless feeling turning into very intense rage directed toward OBAMA and the Dems
Obama was losing white, hispanic, and black voters before this?
Race will be a factor for good or bad. it will be a factor
I have been in the game to long. to ignore this fact
No one knows what going to happen when a black guy kills the new deal? I have a very, very, bad feeling that this is going to get, very, very, ugly.
By the way! keep this in mind Obama, Nancy, Harry, Mitch, John, Raul, just voted to kill some of your neighbors and friends. Yes! americans will die when this bill passes.
Someone needs to ask OBAMA, Nancy, Harry, Raul, how do you feel about killing Americans? Because your Deal will Kill Americans.
Obama has more blood on his hands! this time he has a lot more American Blood on his hands.
History will say OBAMA killed Americans! to get re-elected in 2012
Exactly right. Take it from someone who is already there and dealing with it.
Dear Dems in Congress:
If you vote to cut entitlements, I will vote to out you. #itsonlyfair
Yep. Along the lines of what I’ve been saying:
*****************
You cut Social Security/Medicare 2011?
We cut YOU 2012.
*****************
Again why are we paying trillions in interest to the federal reserve? More importantly why is’nt this brought up every time when discussing U.S. debt?
Not that this should excuse them, but progressives always end up in this position because of what comes from the top at the very beginning. Obama starts his “negotiations” by giving away the store and things go from bad to worse. Now nobody wants to be the guy who gets blamed for the collapse of the American economy. Not only that, no matter what any of them say, they all like the political cover that will come from the super congress.
“If so it’s out of pure expediency. You can’t vote for this one day and then rage over virtually the same bill the next day and claim to be doing it out of principle.”
I agree. On the other hand, I’ll settle for expediency, if it will swing the House. And sometimes, even, people have changes of heart. Who would have thought that the California Attorney General who presided over the Japanese internment would have gone on to become one of the great liberal Supreme Court Justices?
Well I hate giving him the benefit of the doubt but I think yesterday was simply a procedural vote. There’s also the very good chance that the deal that the president is coming up with will be even worse than what he signed onto yesterday. I hope this time they mean it. I mean, perhaps someone here can tell me how the dems can take back the three branches by throwing soc sec, medicare and medicaid to the wolves? Raul must like his minority status…
Two, we need to find somebody to primary the president Jane. Maybe it will be you and Glenn traveling someplace and recruiting but this guy needs a primary opponent or a viable third party run. (Do you have 100 million to burn? That’s what it would take…or do you know 300 Hollywood Left millionaires who would be willing to start a third party? They would have to be millionaires who are disappointed with the president’s positions…)
I do have a cunning plan:
http://www.indiegogo.com/The-Lets-Create-Viable-Third-Party-Runs-Campaign-1
Jane, you are absolutely killing it today.
This was like watching Jordan in his prime.
Wow.
say good bye to the slow recovery and hello to the double dip recession.
Yeah, it’s pretty pathetic. Welcome to the Recov… er, to the Double Dip Recession.
Actually, that’s arguable. To the average person, it feels like they never came out of the first dip.
Turned on CNN a few moments ago, they’re replaying O’s remarks.
Village: They. Are. All. Insane.
At 8:30 p.m. this evening, the Senate suddenly returned from the recess it began at 1:39 p.m. today.
Harry Reid read a statement about compromise winning the day, and Mitch McConnell then made brief remarks about their agreed-upon budget/debt “framework.”
The Senate will convene tomorrow, Monday, at 10:30 a.m., continue on the Reid budget deal as-was until 11:00 a.m., and then recess from 11 a.m. until 12:30 p.m., so that the Party Bosses can privately give their marching orders to the members of their respective Senate caucuses on the still-secret Obama/McConnell/Boehner budget deal, as-is. [The Senate Democrats will privately gather at 11:00 a.m.]
C-SPAN says that the House Republicans will be privately gathered at 8:30 a.m. tomorrow, and the House Democrats will likewise be gathered sometime during the morning.
The obvious line of the day and next course of action, as Mitch McConnell candidly predicted on Saturday: “the Democrats will fall in line” right on cue, and do the President’s bidding. (At a minimum, wherever House and Senate Democrats are needed to fill in around the edges, to pass Obama’s “compromise” with McConnell/Boehner, because Republicans alone can’t quite fill the gap. Step up, rotating villains, the curtain’s about to rise.)
At 8:36 p.m., the Senate adjourned for the night, and Dick Durbin came over and shook Mitch McConnell’s hand.
Have we learned yet that the House “Progressive” Chorus er Claque er “Committee” er whatever is a completely sarcastic joke that isn’t even funny?
Of course he promptly denounced the bill he voted for. He can’t literally talk out of both sides of his mouth at the same time. He has to first talk out of one side, then, as rapidly as he can, talk out of the other side.
But not at the same time.
If you are like me, your perspective on the “debt ceiling” circus has gone from “horrified”, to “genuinely offended”, to “jaundiced if only I wasn’t right”, to “utterly contemptuous of each and every figure involved”.
We’re seeing the US national government not just stick toe in the yellow pool of banana republic politics, we’re seeing the two parties compete to see who can do the fanciest acrobatic high dive into the pool. This isn’t K-Mart flotation devices in the pool of banana republic politics, this is Michael Phelps going for the gold over and over again.
You can start to laugh, but only once you’ve totally lost all respect.
Hear, Hear…thanks for the shout out….she deserves it.
Obama is looking down while making his speech. Not a proud moment.
Baldrick
Progressive Caucus of California Democratic Party Calls for Primary Challenge to President Obama
More premature-Obamulation by going out there and talking.
Tea-GOPers are gonna kneecap Bohener so he can’t agree. Idiot.
Not seeking to be disagreeable, but to me the Villagers’ actions reflect their self-interest: they earn their affluence by sacrificing the resto us to the corporatists.
Bingo! That is exactly the way they play the game. These are cosmetic votes. I expect this sort of thing is agreed to behind the scenes in advance once they have their vote count and passage is assured.
But Obama is acting like he expects the “agreement” to be rejected. He just wants to make sure everyone knows he agreed on something. Then it will be the fault of others if it doesn’t go through.
There, fixed it for you.
Inasmuch as the Dems in toto couldn’t stop any bill in the House what reason is there for them to vote for such a piece of shit? Even if a Dem was totally ideologically in bed with the Regressives s/he could still vote no to appease his/her constituents with no consequences.
Janezilla!
Also, Hamsher is one of my heroes. I don’t think anyone else with a media presence has the integrity to just tell the truth about the US governance disaster. And her writing is fun. You might as well have fun if you can’t stop the train wreck.
Everyone should send a nasty letter to their electeds. No, the won’t listen to us at this point, but they need to know their constituents are pissed. They hear from the looney tooneys all the time–now they must hear from us.
We are in this position because there are no progressive mass movements. No one is taking to the streets (certainly not the AFL-CIO). Emmanuel neutered the liberal groups into nothingness. We need folks who are engaged in local actions (there are and they are successful) to take their work national.
Oh yeah, I’m not voting for Obama and I don’t care about consequences—except around the margins, how much worse would another lunatic right wing presidency be? Safety net is now in tatters, government is contracted out, wars continue, immigrants are still being deported, civil rights are violated, what is left?
Time to man the barricades and not just with pitchforks and torches! As Norski always admonishes pass the ammunition we are going to need it and with better weapons!!
I also wrote about the four groups that could start viable third party movements here:
http://my.firedoglake.com/steelydan3/2010/07/02/four-ways-you-can-get-to-viable-3rd-party-runs-and-one-fantastical-green-party-way/
Now, Jane, we are not supposed to know that these bills are virtually the same.
Most of America’s citizens do not, yet, know this truth, and “progressives” like Grijalva hope (and pray) that they NEVER shall.
And here you go, spilling the beans …
“Progressives” … stuff it, Grrrrrijalva!
DW
But that’s exactly the point. It won’t swing the house. If there is any danger that voting against will actually cause the bill to go down, Grijalva will suddenly be enlightened and “reluctantly” vote for it. It’s all a show.
Best tweet of the day:
‘s office.
I guess they do not love us any more.LOL
The triggers strike me as the most telling evidence against the politicians; they’re basically guaranteeing that they can get into the committee, tap dance and showboat and put on all manner of tricks in front of the mass media, then just point their fingers at each other, blamelessly, when the triggers go off automatically.
Sure – but nonetheless, I say they are INSANE. You can’t have a United States without us, and ignoring us is folly.
Maybe not this second, maybe not this month, maybe not for a while; but they are set for doom. People are too pissed off.
“If I can’t dance, I don’t want to be part of your revolution.” Emma Goldman
Bingo!
DW
Don’t forget the proposed Digital Blackwater.
House vote 682 (7/30) was to Reject the Reid Plan:
http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/112/house/1/682
House vote 677 (7/29) was For The Boehner Plan:
http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/112/house/1/677
So it seems there is some procedural confusion here.
If Romney is the Republican candidate, Obama will lose and frankly, it probably will not make much difference. How can he be much worse? The only good thing is that the Terror Party will probably be voted out once it sinks into the American idiots just how insane they are. Read Krugmans blog Tax Cut Memories. Obama is an idiot and he is taking us down with him.
Okay, Jane, saying you’re right, what is anyone going to do about it? I’ve contributed to Blue Progressives and a lot of others in my state. I’m tapped out. Money runs the system. I’m also trying to save for my own retirement. Rather than curse the darkness, what candle do you light?
I tire of all this.
http://www.bgladd.com/KY4Dems.jpg
let’s hope so.
According to the link, the main body of the Democratic Party of California basically clowned the Progressive Caucus.
It sounded like they punched the DFH’s into the ground.
Typical.
Yes! If you don’t think this will hurt beneficiaries, then I have a plot on the Moon to sell you. The “providers” either won’t accept Medicare patients (as some no longer do now), or they will charge more for secondary plan coverage. The providers statement is pure lies, and nothing less.
Oooh! I sense a Sternly Worded Letter coming on …
#FUWashington just passed 100k (that Tweet just flew by) …
What I don’t get, is how Obama’s political advisers think there’s any way they’re going to spin this shit show into electoral gold in 2012?
Since the day he got elected, Obama’s been characterized in the media — unchallenged, of course — as a “socialist” (we could only wish) or some other sort of left-wing loony, even as he enacted policies that were a corporatist’s wet dream made real.
So, instead of implementing actual liberal policies that might have been effective in resuscitating a moribund economy, he’s going to held responsible by voters for prolonging if not worsening the recession/depression — and also for having done it with his crazy far-leftist governance. Well done, politicos — it’s the worst of all possible options!
“Independent voters” aren’t going to give him points for getting garbage legislation passed. They have to stand in unemployment lines, and want to collect Social Security, just like registered Democrats and Republicans do. They aren’t going to look at him as a pragmatic, above-the-fray leader, he’s just going to look like a failure to them. Worst of all, the narrative has already been written that says it’s because he’s been too liberal — facts be damned.
We must seek the light of courage … from within.
There is no easy, simple, or safe way forward.
You have a choice, do nothing, or begin to rebuild civil society.
Starting with a functioning rule of law …
There is no other course available.
“When in the course of human events” … etc
The Rubicon HAS been crossed, if ye seek comfort, then retire to the sidelines and hope for deliverance, jonerik.
That is the truth of this moment and whatever shall flow from it …
DW
The title of this bill is “Grandma must eat catfood so Wall Street Banksters can afford caviar.”
So, we’ve kicked the market plunge can down the road by one more day.
Given the time frame, I’d suggest phone calls (to both DC and “home” office) + e-mails (individually and via their web page — usually has a place for “comment” or “contact”).
And get your family & friends to do the same. Yeah, yeah, it probably won’t change their mind, but hopefully it will scare them. And it IS better than doing nothing.
Where are the tax increases?
Did anyone see Ralph Nader on some MSNBC show say 100 letters were going out to qualified progressives and we will have third party candidate. He said it would not be him (thats,O.K.) Has anyone heard anything about this?
I work with doctors on a daily basis. You are right. Worse, Medicaid reimbursements are even lower — by as much as half.
Wolf Blitzer just told Mike Lee (Tea Bag – UT) “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.”
AAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!
No.
My profound wish is that Dem Congresscritters realize he is taking THEM down with him, and it somehow scares them into voting against this travesty.
in your 401k / IRA accounts.
make no mistake people will die prematurely from this…fear of affording DR. bills etc
Rep. Raúl M. Grijalva is a spineless coward with a mouth way bigger then his brain or his heart.
We all knew that in our hearts. You have done us all a public service by proving it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
All part of “Bending The Cost Curve.”
I think I’m going to be sick
Maybe they’ll give nice speeches or something equally powerful.
It won’t be covered.
po Leslie is extremely neuron deprived as his Jeopardy performance of -2000$ showed
I assume the vote tomorrow, since no cloture has been filed, will be a majority vote???
If so, where is Bernie Saunders at when he says he really really really opposes this bill?? He can filibuster it if he really really really feels that way.
Just. More. Theater.
Yeah, He was on Olberamann with lame Schuster sitting in on Friday. Schuster was almost babbling at the idea of primarying Obama. He tried to insult Nader and Nader said, “Well YOU called ME”
Who knows we may get another party out this instead of the monotheistic one we have now.
dont be sick,save the cash it will cost…fight the dicks
So who in the Democratic Party is not beholden to Obama?
I just go into the bathroom….quietly.
First, understand that the problem is capitalism. The system can’t be reformed. No matter who is in charge, it will always tend toward devolution and corruption.
Capitalism has to be completely replaced, and you only have four options that I know of: market socialism, centrally-planned socialism, and fascism (which have all been tried), and participatory economics (which hasn’t).
The left can start building pareconish institutions and transforming its existing institutions along pareconish lines right now — no one is preventing it but the left itself. That would put the fear of Jesus Christ into the capitalist class and cause them to accede to massive social changes.
FDR was protecting capitalism from a truly revolutionary movement from below. We need such a movement today, but it can’t be based on what has historically been called socialism (which would more accurately be called “coordinatorism”). The only way to build a revolutionary movement from below today is through participatory economics. Nothing else will work.
But first, the left will have to acknowledge the existence of a third economic class: the coordinator class, something that the left has shown zero interest in doing for decades now.
But if the left does that, mountains will move. And relatively quickly too, I think.
even despair suicide
When it comes back as the McConnell-Obama bill with the GOP’s blessing they won’t need his vote any more, however, so now he can shake his fist in defiance.
I am very disappointed
yeah,i saw that…..uhm you called me
D’accord, DW. I’m a little skeptical at the moment of the efforts to build a “progressive caucus” in the House. If the promoters of this effort have such little confidence, what am I supposed to believe?
Say hello to the ‘Greenspan favelas’, as Charlie Stross put it.
I’ve been on Medicaid for nearly 20 years now. I’ve watched it cut to the bone under Clinton and then, mostly Bush. I don’t know how they’re going to explain to the HMOs that they can’t have their candy and eat it too.
this is going to be a disaster
There are already shortages of doctors who will take medicare patients, so we are already seeing rationing. I can’t imagine what is going to happen when any cuts take place. As far as social security, they haven’t gotten a cola in 4 years. If the rat bastard in chief thinks the indies are going to swing his way he is far more brain damaged than I ever thought.
Absolutely right, athena1.
Obama just sealed his legacy, a legacy far worse than that of George W. Bush, and just like Bush, Obama has no one to blame but himself.
Last year, Obama could have single-handedly raised taxes on the wealthiest 2 percent (averting any “negotiations” with Tea Party Republicans this year over revenue increases) by Obama promising to veto
any legislation extending the budget-busting deficit-exploding Bush era tax cuts. Sen. Reid and Speaker Pelosi could have done the same in Congress, vetoing any Bush tax cut extension bill, refusing to bring any to the floor for a vote. Thus, the revenue issue would have been resolved just by reverting to Clinton era tax levels.
Likewise, failure to raise the debt ceiling last year, or at least try to raise it with a clean bill, would have averted this current hostage-taking economic-extortion shake-down of America, the poor, the middle-class, the elderly, our nation’s children. But I don’t remember Obama last year using his bully pulpit to push the (at the time) Democratic-controlled Congress to raise the debt ceiling.
And shockingly enough, if the revenue-draining Bush era tax cuts HAD been allowed to expire as scheduled at the end of last year (with Democrats simply doing nothing), then talk about raising the debt ceilling probably wouldn’t have even arisen, now or in the immediate future. Remember, Clinton era tax levels actually PAID DOWN the debt, actually balanced the budget on the positive side by the time Clinton left office. Then Bush and Republicans blew holes in the budget, just as Obama, the Republicans, the conservative Blue Dog DLC Democrats and even some “progressive” Democrats are getting ready to do.
Therefore, this was all planned in the Obama administration, with Obama signing off on it. Yes, the Republicans are stark-raving rabid, but Obama has kept throwing hunks of blood-dripping meat and bones at them, feeding them, instead of putting them down.
When unemployment by the end of this year shoots past 10 percent, and rising, following passage of this budget-busting deficit-exploding Obama/Republican deal. Obama will be blamed (and rightly so since he signed it), but equally-to-blame Republicans will use Citizens United-funded ads, Fox News propagandists and right-wing talk show hacks to try to deflect blame for what they helped cause from them. Maybe they’ll succeed. Whatever. Next year is looking to be highly volatile, economically and electorally…just what the apocalypse-minded right-wingers called for.
There are NONE
is already extremely high…or no money for heat,or air condiion…oh sigh
IDK. Frankly, I don’t know why anyone would be beholden to him.
So what did Obama get for throwing Democratic principles under the bus? He gets an extension of the debt limit so it doesn’t hurt his reelection chances. Personally, I think what he has done seals his fate and he won’t be relected. Those cuts just about guarantee a double dip recession or worse. The discussion will not be about jobs, but how much Medicare and Social Security will be cut. I won’t mention Medicaid, because that will be totally eviserated.
Obama may have negotiated the defense cuts in the trigger lower than originally thought. Obama is talking about the new commission taking a shared sacrifice approach is a canard. That commission will close tax decuctions that are beneficial to the middle class while preserving corporate tax breaks in the name of creating jobs. They’ll reduce tax rates. Locking in the Bush tax cuts.
All that will happen is that the middle class is going to pay off the debts caused by corporate welfare and fraud. The cycle is complete and the corporations have managed to privatize profits and socialize losses. With the new “free” trade deals the middle class will lose even more jobs. Obama had the chutzpah to call for the passage of these free trade deals to help out corporations. That is not going to help those who are suffering through no fault of their own.
It is going to make me very happy to see this guy go down in flames next year.
It wasn’t a procedural vote. It was Reid bill, straight up.
Well I hope so. I wonder who the qualified people are? Will they be “community organizers” too. Hopefully they won’t have been past members of the DLC.
The presidency is the hardest thing to win. You need anywhere from, and these are my estimates, 100 to 300 million dollars to contest the presidency of the United States. I did write something called the 5/25 plan where you would start lower, say 5 senate seats, 25 house seats. You need 2.5 million to contest a senate seat (small to midsize state) and at least 200000 dollars to contest a house seat. As always I do have a cunning plan:
http://fivetwentyfiveplan.blogspot.com/2010/03/progressives-should-support-seius-third.html
Yes, he was on MSGOP yesterday saying that.
Comity!
*snerk*
If votes proceed with no hitches, this will probably be a 5% up week for the market.
All or most of that $2 trillion + will be monetized by the Fed in QE3 (who else would buy it?), and the money recirculated through the primary dealers, who will turn around and buy Apple.
S&P could gain 500 points out of this thing. Even as we slide back into the Recession That Will Never End.
Providers have been not taking Medicare patients since the 90s. It’s not a new thing.
Well said, we must begin to live as we understand to be the best and proper way, it is only through the success of example that necessary change may now be encouraged to come about, Eric.
Participatory endeavor, in a rational, humane economic system and an equally rational and humane self-governance are the only way forward for the human species.
DW
Smells like NAFTA…ESEA…
I guess I’m saying that the bill they’re working on is worse than what he actually voted on yesterday, awful as it was. I think I meant procedural in the fact that it showed a united dem caucus…that knew they weren’t going to win. I guess I’m hoping that the Prog caucus isn’t just crying wolf like they usually do before they roll over and die…You never know.
Meaningless unless there’s big money behind that candidate. Already many third parties. They rarely break more than 2% of the popular vote, no way they are going to win with the f#cked up electoral college system. Face it, we’re f#cked. We need endless protests and, yes, riots right now for those lucky enough to be in big cities. As long as we sit around listening to the TV, ranting on sites like this, and fantasizing about distant election miracles, we’re allowing it to happen and we’re toast.
I talked with someone from the senate side tonight who said the Reid bill grijalva voted for is arguably marginally worse than the final bill will be. But since nobody knows what the details are yet, this is all about posturing.
I wrote mine this afternoon. Told him straight out what I was against, and also what I was for.
He’s generally left of the MOTUs, but not as far as I’d like. On the other hand, I’ve had far worse contgresscritters.
Awesome!!!
I’ve known most of those people for years
is it too late to storm the Bastille?
I don’t think it’s just that either. I think there’s a huge money factor involved. The DNC has been known to abandon members that don’t toe the line. Yesterday he voted for it because the PTB told him to and now they want him to try to recover some of the progressive cred they just demanded he sacrifice. But it’s like they aren’t even trying to be convincing any more. They’re going through the motions out of rote habit.
Excellent point.
What do you “believe”?
What world do you envision, that you might share with the rest of us?
Our gravest lack is considered imagination.
We have, now, the opportunity of real and genuine change, if we’ve the courage to rise to the needs of OUR time and claim it as our own.
It will not be easy, painless, or without great cost.
Yet, have we not all been preparing for this time all of our lives?
I submit that we have.
DW
…surely anyone here who has noticed is tired of the one-note samba I’ve been posting repeatedly, but keeping it simple has its advantages:
OBAMA IS A FRAUD.
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS A FRAUD.
DE-ELECT THE PRESIDENT AND HIS PHONY CONCUBINES IN CONGRESS.
VOTE THIRD PARTY PROGRESSIVE IN 2012.
Any of you NOT buying guns and ammo at this point are fools.
right now,i just want to overthrow the Obummer machine
Damn, Jane is on roll today.
Nice work.
Well being correct in this instance totally sucks.
I said the ceiling would be raised. Why? Because the markets are far too stable. The chickenshites at wall street go bat-shite crazy over storms, much less the US defaulting. Look to the markets, ie. those that literally own the place.
Of course Catfood of some form will go forward. And of course the Repubs will attempt, AND SUCCEED, in making it a very powerful committee. They’re not even fighting against the Catfood idea. It’s all kabuki. The markets have spoken.
How does SS and affect markets? How does it “add” to the debt? How does gutting it make businesses more comfortable? The fact that the corporate media and all our so-call “reps” never even mention this is because they are all reading off the same script. Catfood was a given. Only how vicious it will be to the weakest and most defenseless is up for question.
And we can see that the Dems have agreed to it. So now the Repubs counter with an even a stronger Catfood (which everyone knows will happen), and then O and the “Dems” will “fold” (which everyone knows will happen and it is exactly what they want), and then we will have a super-duper Catfood.
It will be brutal.
I must give props to the kabuki. Everyone on the same script. Fooled most Americans with this imaginary crisis, and everyone, O, Rs, Ds, and the corporate media all reading from the same script. Perfect tension, ie. shock and awe, created. Well done oligarchs/plutocrats/rich.
The Catfood has another benefit. They are easing us into it. Most are resigned to the “necessity” of it and the eventual gutting of SS. A program that does NOT add to the deficit. So now they let the anger die down, and after months of spouting the same lies on the corporate media, most will be more resigned to the “necessity” and the anger will have been vented long ago.
Check and mate.
Remember, evil, not stupid.
At this point, the double dip recession is already a given. I’m just concerned as to whether we are moving into a full blown depression.
Agreed, but I don’t think the anger or willingness to jump ship has seen this level. At least not in my lifetime. There are millions of us who are not going to vote for these asshats any longer. I know I am still going to vote, not voting is not an answer either. I just wont be voting for democrats or cons.
He’s been talking about shared sacrifice for weeks.
Unfortunately, the only people sharing it will be those who can’t afford to lose any more. The guys at the top with the money and lots of cars and houses, they won’t have to sacrifice any more than a 5-figure political donation.
I think you’re right. It seems like Obama has sealed his fate, as well as ours. There will be at least one third party candidate and the middle vote that he’s always shooting for will be diluted. Any idiot the republicans choose will then become electable by their unwavering base. Also, no good news on the economic horizon spells defeat by itself. When the republicans are back in control they’ll dismantle the seriously flawed health care plan and we’ll have four years that were not only a complete waste of time, but also destroyed any democratic hopes to recapture power. What a nightmare. I need the ghost of Christmas future to come and tell me how all this can be avoided.
This man was a traitor on the Health Care Public Opption and now this.Does anyone want to Remove The Incumbents or go down with the lobbiest puppet’s.Make the lobbiest buy a new puppet every election.
My bold
From Wiki
How many generations do you think will be required for this to come into being?
The featherless biped is most proficient at postures, poses, and ritual displays.
It is said that the Dodo bird was equally gifted.
Jane, what would you do, if you were “there” …
;~DW
Can’t eat guns and ammo. Can’t get to work on them. They’re not very useful.
John Garamendi for President in 2012
Look at Europe (especially Greece), or huge chunks of the Arab world. They have hundreds of thousands of people in the streets, but what have they won? Not much. Why?
You have to have an institutional program to consolidate your gains. You can see this even in the history of U.S. social movements. Over 100 years ago, general strikes brought the country to a stop. But no one had an institutional program with which to consolidate anything they won. Consequently, people have to keep re-fighting the same battles over and over again.
That’s why parecon is important. You have to build it now, from the ground up. You can’t wait, have a movement, and then build new institutions after the fact. You have to build them concurrently with the movement, otherwise you have to keep re-taking old real estate. It’s inefficient and demoralizing.
Right now, the left needs a crash course in three-class analysis: workers, owners, and coordinators, who all have different interests. If the left could just begin talking about the coordinator class, and acknowledging its existence, that alone would, I think, go a long way toward building a new movement … requiring elites to find a new FDR to save the system.
Only this time, we need a movement that won’t stop once it wins Social Security or whatever. We need a movement that keeps going long after every single one of us is dead. We need a society whose defining institutions embody a movement, and allow that society to keep making strides by its very core structural logic.
Parecon is a vital part of such a society. No other mode of economic organization can accomplish this; indeed, historically, we’ve seen that every mode of economic organization has actively worked against positive social change.
Basically, it’s parecon, or we keep doing this shit over and over until the human race finally goes extinct.
does anyone know how Frank Lautrenberg and Robert Menendez voted? I live in S Jersey and plan to call them out in the paper if they did vote for it…for whatever this worth I am planning to write to as many papers in S Jersey/Philly area as I can to get the word out about BOTH parties…
I am new to being an advocate and I must admit and I really trying not to become too much of a cynic…
I must give props to the kabuki. Everyone on the same script. Fooled most Americans with this imaginary crisis, and everyone, O, Rs, Ds, and the corporate media all reading from the same script. Perfect tension, ie. shock and awe, created. Well done oligarchs/plutocrats/rich
——————–
that is the essence of theatre…everyone is on script
but fooled they are not
they are playing for keeps
I think what’s happening now is a split even among the left. Those who are fully employed can tune this stuff out and play it down. At worst, it’s a symbolic blow for their team or side. Meanwhile, their little world is great. They have a job, fun life in the city or in the burbs with their family. They hear bad news, maybe see things here and there, but it’s not something they really understand. For them, this idea we just get better Democrats or keep trying third parties seems reasonable.
Then you have people like myself who are underemployed or unemployed, on social services, with health problems, with college debt and so on who are living in deep fear right now. Hearing people talk about far away elections (electing better Democrats or third party candidates, like we haven’t been trying this for many elections now) as a response to this historic nightmare sounds completely out of touch with the severity of the situation.
Draft Donald Trump for President with Howard Dean as Vise President.
and it will be more important for the Tea Party Republicans to preserve their extremism by voting against it for not being radical enough than it will be important for Progressive Caucus Democrats to preserve their integrity.
There are none! The boehner bill Obama blew up last week had $800 billion in revenues. He wanted $400 billion more and Boehner walked away. Reid bill had none and this reportedly has none.
He negotiated it in the OTHER DIRECTION over the course of the week. He panicked when he saw his poll numbers and gave them more than they were asking for in the first place.
A very big “if.”
One way or another, we’ll know shortly.
http://www.bgladd.com/TeaBagger.jpg
The Federal Reserve holds about 11% of the national debt, on which we paid $414 billion in interest in 2010, which comes out to something like $45.5 billon, which is still a hell of a lot of money.
“That commission will close tax decuctions that are beneficial to the middle class while preserving corporate tax breaks in the name of creating jobs. They’ll reduce tax rates. Locking in the Bush tax cuts.”
Nailed it.
And most Americans will buy it.
The Dems’ slashing Social Security marks the end of the Democratic “brand” and the imminent demise of the party. The weakness or strength of so-called progressive politicians is mostly irrelevant to this process. Social Security has been the Democrats’ signature issue since the time of Franklin Roosevelt, and a vote by the party to gut the program, along with Medicare and Medicaid, eliminates the most fundamental reason why Democrats have been elected. The bill also marks a definitive break by the Democrats of any allegiance to Keynesian counter-cyclical economics, the centerpiece of their economic program during their period of ascendency in the last century. The future is unforeseeable, but it is clear that the scope of the political upheaval will be comparable to that in the 1850s when the Whigs disappeared and the Republicans (a party far, far from the modern version) took their place.
How interesting, but the resolution to primary Obama is not a done deal, yet.
From the web site of the Calif Dem Party Progressive Caucus:
He voted for this shit too.
Be really careful throwing around a word like ‘traitor’, as it has a very specific meaning in the Constitution.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43946055/
Frog on slow boil
Garamendi voted for this too…
Yes, I don’t mean to suggest otherwise regarding race, gender, and authority — not at all. I take those issues very seriously although, yes, I am emphasizing parecon right now, because I think it’s the one that is currently the most important. Also, it’s very well-developed, whereas the others are not.
http://www.bgladd.com/DonaldDiplomat.jpg
So when does the public get to see exactly what is in this Grand Compromise?
I know Congress got the message that America does not want Medicare/Social Security/Medicaid messed with. Let’s see how well they understand that 2012 and 2014 is their kick out the door!
Post
A lot of us who have full-time jobs don’t have any guarantees of a job next year.
Don’t assume jobs mean uncaring or ignorant. A lot of the people I know are worried.
We’ve been in a depression for months now. The “official” definition is bullshit. We’re going to have it MUCH worse than they did in the ’30s simply because of overpopulation.
Will I be surprised if Obama threw in the Free Trade Agreements he has been pushing? NOPE!
Well, yes, a resistance needs a solution to offer or else someone else with more money will take the opportunity. This is a lesson from Egypt. The democracy activists started it, but were not able to follow through and now the Muslim Brotherhood (who were marginal during the initial uprising) and army are the big players.
More importantly, we need to get people out in the streets though. Sitting around with theories and solutions means nothing when no one is out there saying they’ve had enough and demand real change.
Jane, I’d be willing to impeach him for incompetence, with that kind of negotiation as evidence.
Sorry, Ms. Hamsher, but you are simply dead WRONG on this.
That vote you mentioned was a procedural vote that was ginned up by the GOTP to insure failure of the original Reid compromise bill…the one that was defeated in the Senate on Sunday by not making cloture. It was basically a show vote done by Boehner for propaganda purposes.
To hang Grajalva for that and diminish his correct opposition to the final “compromise” bill like this is the height of hypocrisy…and I have to ask what your agenda in all of this really is to smear a progressive that’s really on your side of the debate.
Anthony
I know menendez did and I’d be stunned if lautenberg didn’t.
You are really on a roll today. Blessings upon your, DW.
The person quoted is probably Bob Mulholland. He hates anything, and everything progressive. I could tell you stories …
I know people in the CDP Progressive Caucus and I have to tell you, their statement isn’t the last step in this. I guarantee you they’re going to do something
“How many generations do you think will be required for this to come into being?”
I think we could completely transform every aspect of society within ten years. I don’t think that will be the hard part.
I think the hard part will be getting people to see the necessity of pareconish institutions to replace capitalist ones, getting the coordinator class to even acknowledge its privileged position as a class — basically, the hard part won’t be changing society. It will be changing the left.
How long will that take? I don’t know. But there’s no doubt that the overwhelming majority of people all over the world are hungry and ready for massive change — they’re just waiting for someone to show them what and how.
Mayhap a war, a class war, will bring about sytems of barter and what is known as “black” markets SD?
Charismic Dragon warriors of justice and conscience have profound effects upon local understandings … and the power to move the hearts of the timid and uncertain. All true courage comes from the heart, as Namaste-love spirits have long shown the rest of us.
DW
I second that EMOTION!
“I think what’s happening now is a split even among the left. Those who are fully employed can tune this stuff out and play it down. At worst, it’s a symbolic blow for their team or side. Meanwhile, their little world is great. They have a job, fun life in the city or in the burbs with their family. They hear bad news, maybe see things here and there, but it’s not something they really understand. For them, this idea we just get better Democrats or keep trying third parties seems reasonable. ”
Exactly.
This is the key. Until the really feel it, they do NOT care!
But they will. Because guess where the money is? We don’t have anymore. That leaves those who are currently “comfortable”. The middle class is the “next” target. I say “next”, because they’re already targets, but they’re going to ramp it up after this win. After this, it’s smooth sailing against all the “comfortable” folk.
I have never voted for a Repub (back in the day did respect Ed Brooke of Mass), but if Romney survives the primaries and moves to the center, he could conceivably arrive at a place to the left of Obama. Afterall, the Obama healthcare plan is the Romney Massachusetts plan!
And if President Romney moved to cut Social Security, the dems would stand united to stop him.
You need to fill DC with demonstrators, if you’re going to make it count. Surround the WH and the Capitol, and fill the mall. Elsewhere it’s just going to make people mad at YOU.
Where does this keep coming from?
You got a link showing it was a procedural vote instead of a vote on the bill itself?
and a bullshit press/media
Twenty years, at least. Because first you have to be able to explain it so people can understand what the hell you’re talking about.
Superb comment, caleb.
DW
Here in the south unemployment is so high we are already bartering. Fresh eggs, meat, and veggies are awesome for a little painting and car repair!
You got it hoss.
It is not going to be pretty. Let the gutting begin.
This is a fact. My husband is about to lose the job he’s had for the last 20 years. We are going to lose everything we’ve worked for. This company is profitable. Why are they laying people off? They want to increase their bottom line. The millions in profit isn’t quite enough I guess.
I hope Jane produces a movie about this deceitful treacherous president’s
rise to power and his destruction of the American dream. Call it, Natural Born Snakes. Who would be willing to play the part of this spineless, venal, coward and tyrant?
The liberal class, and its institutions, the most important of which was the Democratic Party are dead. Nothing proves the death of the liberal class more than the debt-ceiling kabuki we have seen in nauseating slow-motion over the past several weeks. Anyone who has been paying attention knew the fix was in, and that so-called progressives would soon be voting for a plan to further hollow out the middle and working class, plunge us back into recession and restrict healthcare for seniors and hard-won social security benefits. It was only a matter of time. We’ve seen this movie before.
We need to continue to say loud and clear: we will not vote for anyone who votes to cut social security and medicare. And then back that statement up with action.
From Chris Hedges, Death of the Liberal Class:
“The party consciously sold out the working class for corporate money. Bill Clinton, who argued that labor had nowhere else to go, in 1994 passed the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which betrayed the working class. He went on to destroy welfare and in 1999 ripped down the firewalls between commercial and investment banks to turn the banking system over to speculators. Barack Obama, who raised more than $600 million to run for president, most of it from corporations, has served corporate interests as assiduously as his party. He has continued the looting of the U.S. Treasury by corporations, refused to help the millions of Americans who have lost their homes because of bank repossessions or foreclosures, and has failed to address the misery of our permanent class of unemployed.”
The last time I voted for an R, voluntarily and with forethought, was 1972. Pete McCloskey. For Congress. (I’d actually met him. Twice. He’s still the only one I’ve met.
EXACTLY!!!!!
If mainstream media reported on the things I see everyday the jobless economy would not be such a secret!
Gotta shout it out to Jane who has created a movement that attracts some of my favorite (types of) people. It makes a difference. It surely does.
(((TrueHearts)))
Keep hope alive.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/31/black-caucus-progressives-to-oppose-debt-deal/
thats what ive been thinking
It was a fucking vote on the damn bill give me a break.
Does the term yet apply? We’ve torture and the destruction of the rule of law … and an intentional assault upon civil society … when do we approach “high crimes” … or even “misdemeanors”?
I would genuinely appreciate your thoughts on the matter PJ.
DW
I know. DC is the heart of the problem in this case and that’s where the bulk of the demonstrations should to be. Symbolic demonstrations that just irritate people trying to live their lives are not effective of course. That said, in other big cities with a high concentration of people living in the city, there are plenty of places where people can protest. Outside the NY stock exchange, major financial firms and banks in NYC, any corrupt politician who has cut jobs and so on.
Unfortunately, the way big American cities have been gentrified, those living in them are more and more likely to be quite wealthy and have little motivation to demonstrate, whether they vote Democrat, Republican or whatever else. Maybe they’re nervous about their job, but it’s a bit distant.
Anthony don’t you know the differance when someone is pissing on your leg and telling you that it’s raining,if it’s rain water or piss?
Great guy. I’ve met him, too, and liked him a lot.
(((tbsa))))
USA=GREED IS GOOD
Exactly how is it ‘better’ ? It’s a serious question, not a snark
I’m working with a year-to-year contract. It renews at New Year’s, but I can be fired at any time.
;~DW
They hollowed out a shell bill and added the text of the Reid bill in toto. Are you arguing that the content didn’t matter and all we should care about is the bill number?
Some of us actually still care about substance.
Sorry. Somebody brought this up a few months ago and I did a little research on it. Not in the least impressed with it. Looks nice in theory but extrapolate it out onto a diverse population of 300M.
And they won’t.
They ABSOLUTELY will NOT.
As long as they can keep the perception alive, they forestall any pushback.
And each day is millions more to the royalty. Each day is another one where they cement their power and hold. Each day means less chance of turning it back.
The corporate media is doing their part.
Yes, but I think the mistake that many make is demonstrating in front of the White House. The real demonstrations need to take place at Capitol Hill while Congress is in session and not flying around the world on our dollars!
To further add to this sad situation, those who believe it is “liberal” policy will tack further to the right which will take us as a country even further into the abyss.
Yo Anthony, you need to start posting some links to your sources/evidence man.
There’s an idea I’d help fund. As long as it exposed the hypocrisy and self serving greed of both major parties and all of the players.
I’ll second that, demi!!!
DW
We ought to storm their exclusive, $503 per YEAR medical clinic in the basement.
Thank gawd for the job killing debt deal. yeehawwwwww….. /s
No link?? Why? Because it was a vote ON THE BILL.
And I have to ask what your agenda is in all of this that has you outright lying?
inevitability,and learned helplessness
True! TWOOPH all the way!
I work downtown in a major city, and NOT in government or finance.
We get every effing demonstration in town screwing up our neighborhood and our traffic system. We’ve had demonstrations that resulted in us being locked in the building temporarily.
Please DON’T do it any place but DC and Wall Street.
I wonder if Redford might be interested, Margaret?
I always thought he should do “Bread and Roses, Too”.
DW
collusion, corruption, fraud, treason.
Yes, TREASON!
“Okay, Jane, saying you’re right, what is anyone going to do about it? I’ve contributed to Blue Progressives and a lot of others in my state. I’m tapped out. Money runs the system. I’m also trying to save for my own retirement. Rather than curse the darkness, what candle do you light?”
(jonerik)
THIS:(Progressives can move markets much quicker than we can move the political system. Jane, et al are dead on. We’ve been looking in the wrong place for the problem. Thanks guys.)
(Eric Patton)
“First, understand that the problem is capitalism. The system can’t be reformed. No matter who is in charge, it will always tend toward devolution and corruption.
Capitalism has to be completely replaced, and you only have four options that I know of: market socialism, centrally-planned socialism, and fascism (which have all been tried), and participatory economics (which hasn’t).
The left can start building pareconish institutions and transforming its existing institutions along pareconish lines right now — no one is preventing it but the left itself. That would put the fear of Jesus Christ into the capitalist class and cause them to accede to massive social changes.
FDR was protecting capitalism from a truly revolutionary movement from below. We need such a movement today, but it can’t be based on what has historically been called socialism (which would more accurately be called “coordinatorism”). The only way to build a revolutionary movement from below today is through participatory economics. Nothing else will work.
But first, the left will have to acknowledge the existence of a third economic class: the coordinator class, something that the left has shown zero interest in doing for decades now.
But if the left does that, mountains will move. And relatively quickly too, I think.”
Nah… The job creators will finally turn loose all of that cash they’ve been sitting on now that they’ve been protected from rabid socialism. This time for sure!
millions went to scumbuckets inaugural…millions could go to preserve their rights jeeeeeeebs
Anxious to see how the corporate media will spin this thing tomorrow morning. Screw them all.
Well folks, this experiment in a representative republic has been fun.
1) Wholeheartedly agree with you that capitalism is the problem. No, you can’t tame it, cage it, or harness it. It will break out of any system to regulate it for the common good you devise. The only thing you can do is kill it and make something different.
2) Wholeheartedly agree with you that FDR, by saving capitalism in the 1930s, guaranteed that his work would one day be all undone. The great failure of the New Deal is that its reforms wouldn’t stick.
There is another problem here–with the rightward progression of the Overton Window. The left in the US helps this immeasurably by always shooting its own left flank. No matter what the issue, it joins the right to attack the furthermost wing of the left to prove themselves “reasonable” and “sensible”. Of course, the result is that a part of the “reasonable” left then becomes defined as the “looney” left.
The right by contrast realizes this and always protects its right flank, no matter how extreme or even violent.
-stewartm
The current panic over the debt issue is, in large part, really about pensions. You know – those things the financial “industry” promised everyone with a 401K so that they could live out their golden years with no worries. (And if you didn’t do that you would end up with cat food.) The national debt supports those promises and in the event of collapse, the pension funds will be hit big time. So it’s ironic that in order to secure repayment of the debt, the government plans a raid on the only other source of retirement income, social security. The private system didn’t work, so let’s raid the public system that did work – and then say it didn’t.
I don’t think explaining parecon is the hard part. I think the hard part is that most of the left — at least most of the movers and shakers on the left — doesn’t want to acknowledge its coordinator-class privileges.
In my experience, the coordinator class is loathe to see itself as a separate class. It constantly conflates itself with the working class. How many doctors, managers, lawyers, and college professors think of themselves as workers because they don’t own the means of production and are therefore not capitalists? Most.
That is, people persist in believe class relations arise only in regard to one’s ownership, or lack thereof, of productive resources. People continue to think there are only two classes: owners and workers. But in modern industrial societies, this isn’t true. There is a third class, people who do not own the means of production, but who run them on behalf of the owners.
The success of Fox and the right in organizing the working class is that workers deal with coordinators on a daily basis — and they hate them. The left can’t figure this out though. So capitalists, through their right-wing conduits, organize truck drivers, plumbers, janitors, coal miners, secretaries, and the like by constantly reminding workers just how much they hate coordinators — not a difficult task, because coordinators look down on workers with utter disdain.
All good propaganda is rooted in truth, and this right-wing propaganda is no exception. Of course Fox News is a bunch of posers who don’t give a shit about workers. But if no one is putting money into workers’ pockets, then hell, if they’re going to listen to anyone, it may as well be those who “share” (albeit in lip service only) their hatred of the coordinator class.
I mean, that may be a little bit simplified, but the fact remains that most of the left is a very inhospitable place for the kinds of working-class folks I mentioned above. Left-wing culture is largely coordinator-class culture, and generally not very accepting of working-class culture. That’s true even at ZNet, run by Michael Albert, one of the founders of parecon. Mike may be a genius whose theories are largely correct (and he is and they are), but he’s also a little bit of a hypocrite. That doesn’t negate the correctness of pareconish theory, though, nor does it make me any less of a pareconist.
And no movement in the U.S. in 2011 and beyond will ever look like the workers’ movements of the 1930s without a broader and deeper understanding of pareconish theory, in my opinion.
can we get Mike Moore interested?
Treason, most foul, tambershall …
DW
Does anyone know the procedure tomorrow in the Senate????
If there has been no cloture filed on this “compromise” bill, then ALL Bernie Saunders (or any Democratic Senator) has to do is to object to it coming up for a vote as though they were going to filibuster it.
I’m no fan of the filibuster, but isn’t it funny how the Republicans can use it on EVERYTHING but the Democrats won’t??
Or am I missing something here and tomorrow’s vote is already to be a 60 vote threshold???
NOTE: Not that it would matter in the results. I suppose they’ve got plenty of votes to pass 60. I just want as many D votes ON THE RECORD as I can, and if the threshold is only 50 they’re going to rotate villian their way into protecting some Senators.
But it’s not the PCPs that are causing the problems though. It’s the pharmaceuticals and those companies that pitch the over priced powered wheel chairs and hospitals and on and on that are using medicare as some sort of gravy train.
Those are people that need to be reined in.
Tavis Smiley and Cornell West will conduct The Poverty Tour from August 6 to August 12, 2011
Click here if you would like Smiley & West to visit and hear your family’s story on battling poverty. Click here to follow the tour.
i really pinch myself,trying to grasp the gravity of the heist
As I mentioned this morning, and it is even more true now that the deal is more in view; there really is not much to worry about.
The “trigger” is half defense and half Medicare. Sounds scary!
But, look more closely. The “cuts” to Medicare are only to providers. If the trigger happens, the providers will be cut. They will complain and threaten to leave the system, AS THEY HAVE DONE FROM MANY YEARS, Congress will then reverse these “cuts” in a new doctor type fix.
So, you end up with defense actually cut (as progressives have dreamed for many years), and Medicare pretty much as it has always been.
I’d call that a huge win for progressives and huge loss for the GOP.
That is the “real life” way it will go down.
So, there was nothing to worry about, as said this am.
The ONLY thing that is not so good for Dems is that they have lost the “cuts to Medicare” issue for the election. BUT, this gets that whole thing out of the way in December, with plenty of time for the voters to forget by November, and the tactic can likely still be used.
Absolutely! If a bus is going close to me, I’m on it.
I think Labor Day would be the perfecta!
Not to mention the nursing homes and care facilities.
Finally the trickle down will happen. Thank Dawg.
I’m so tired of them peeing on me all the time.
All we have to do is give up SS/Medicare/Medicaid, our jobs, our homes, our property, our public land, our public utilities, …
And we finally get the trickle down fairy??? Oh boy. I hope she don’t pee on us too before the real trickle down happens.
I knew it was bound to, eventually. All we had to do was give them everything, including our children …
/s
ya know what
BHO…is completely
AUDACIOUS
look at the size of his heist….
We shouldn’t be afraid to use the word.
We shouldn’t trumpet it out like idiots either.
But what else is this?
Easy. After extracting a few hard won and necessary concessions from the awful libruls, the wise, responsible and very serious Republicans saved the country from economic apocalypse despite the President doing everything his little Kenyan brain could imagine to derail the whole thing.
Where has market socialism been tried? Googling it, I don’t see anywhere, unless you have a very different definition than I (my definition–worker-owned and controlled companies that raise capital via selling bonds but not stock and who compete against other similar firms in a market system).
-stewartm
Jon Hack Alter,called libruls FIREBREATHING tonite….g
You and me both.
I honestly can not believe this is happening.
This is insane. Utter madness. The number of people this will affect is mind-boggling.
And these sick Fs are committed to it.
I don’t even know if they’re human. No heart. No soul.
What kind of thing does this?
I read the NYT to say that because the Reid bill failed, it means the House rejected it, not that the vote was to reject the Reid bill.
Yeah…that doesn’t surprise me. Gonna engage in some tongue biting and self moderating now. Imagine the temerity of people demanding someone, (on the “left”), stand up for the principles they espouse. What a buncha unserious, hippie, firebaggers!
That is so cool. Thanks for the alert. Two people I admire.
Hummm…I like the market socialism.
That one deserves to hit the Big Time, tambershall!
Damn, I’m glad you joined us!
DW
Baaahhhhh, shit! Grump, here. I mean, I didn’t learn anything new. same ol’ shit. But after this, how any democrat can’t see that the party is fucked-up is beyond me. The party just signed-on to cut the safety net, stuent loans, etc and preserve tax cuts and breaks for the wealthiest. This is the Democratic party I just said that about! how can any democrat notr ask themself “Hey, whoa. What the fuck just happened and why?” i don’t get it.
Exactly correct.
Their idea of “balance” is to get some crazy right-wing corporatist “economist” and some idiot D corporatist “economist” who both believe that gutting SS, which does not add to the deficit, is the “sensible” thing to do.
Liar, thieves, and the corporate media. What a match.
The vote is only a simple majority. That’s what I am hearing anyway.
I am so in the Garmendi corner. I’ve actually suggested him as a primary challenge to Obama here in and FDL diary and:http://www.opednews.com/articles/John-Garamendi-Vs-Barack-O-by-Robert-Arend-110727-31.html#comment338984
That one deserves the Big Time, as well.
(and you were “here” when I joined “up”!)
DW
Except many of us who fall into that category know friends/relatives who aren’t. So we’re still hit.
Moreover, when the double dip comes, we might not be employed either.
This “compromise” (I wonder what President Bipartisanship gave away THIS time? I see no revenue increases so that part of his “stand fast” shtick sure didn’t last now did it?) is a disaster for the country. Anyone who fights it–and I still hope the Tea Party will, because anything with Obama’s endorsement they despise–has my thanks.
-stewartm
So what’s coming our way after they’ve shredded the social safety net? A move to repeal the Minimum Wage – in order to create more jobs? Will the Dims put that on the table next year when they negotiate with the repukes?
Agreed. Absolutely.
DW
yup without a true progressive leader,we are caught flat footed…he was swept into office by a mandate,and kicked us to the curb,for dirty money
i welcome their hatred!
Stewart -
Nothing is ever pure socialist. But similar conditions exist in Germany, and other places in Europe, i.e. worker controlled companies. They own stock, not bonds though.
In the US they have ESOP companies. Usually they are small to mid size companies. Everyone I know who is in one loves it. The retirement packages are fantastic.
He voted for this bill dear.
Is that picture all you know about Donald Trump.Trump is more Honorable than anyone that’ in DC now and would be a better President than we’ve had for over 40 years.Trump hates NAFTA knows the importance of Social Security and Medicare Trump is a Builder and Producer.With advice from a VP Howard Dean you would have Health Care covered not forced health insurance for profit.
We’ve already got a rentier class calling the shots, why in the world would the workers buy into a system that relies on rentiers for capital?
No, no, you misunderstand.
This is obviously OUR fault.
Why can’t we all buy what the corporate media is selling?
And when they said trickle down they actually meant peeing.
So all that wonderful pee, and let’s be honest, also a lot of shite, which is also yellowish/brownish, is what they meant all along.
Welcome to an economic policy of pee and shite.
We’re so skrewed.
im thinking EPA,FDA
anything that helps ORDINARY people
Elizabeth Warren ’12
I guess. It’s better to do it while they’re there, but any effort is better than sitting around waiting for elections at this point.
You’re welcome. I also see it as a way to put at least the Black Caucus on notice.
The “slope” gets ever steeper the further down we go … free fall …
Get yer hand-basket, climb aboard, going …
d
o
w
n
!
DW
First they’ll let the courts find DOMA unconstitutional, make a big show about “repealing it” and strut about preening about their commitment to civil rights. Then they’ll take on more social safety net butchery and robbery.
Anybody else in 2012!
So ecosocialism, as described by Joel Kovel, Saral Sarkar, and all of the good people at CNS, isn’t an option?
That was probably me. *shrugs*
If you want to win, say, single payer in the United States, you’re going to need a movement of 100 million people. How do you get that many people? First, you have to believe that it’s possible. I don’t think most of the left honestly believes it can organize 100 million, and that lack of belief is part of the problem.
But I don’t say believe just out of thin air. Rather, have good theory, and understand what the implications of that theory are. You can’t get 100 million without organizing a lot of janitors, factory workers, garbage collectors, and the like. How do you get those people?
Harriet Tubman said she could have freed a lot more slaves if only more had known they were slaves. That’s true today as well. Pareconish theory highlights this, though, and it also provides a solution — not by copying failed “socialism” (more accurately referred to as coordinatorism), but by highlighting its flaws and correcting them. It’s actually not that hard to understand — it’s just so different (not to mention threatening to coordinators, which is always the dominant class in any “socialist” system) that privileged people resist it.
That is, if you’re asking which came first, the chicken or the egg, it doesn’t matter since we already have both. But what if you don’t have either? Now it’s a very important question — at least if you want have eggs and chicken to eat.
Do workers push the left to become more pareconish, or does the left become more pareconish and then explain the theory to workers and help them organize this way? I don’t know.
But I do know that, if capitalism doesn’t go the way of the dodo bird, the human race will. And the only replacement in town is parecon. You will never build a movement for “socialism” in the United States at this point in history.
me too
anybody but zer0
“Where has market socialism been tried?”
The former Yugoslavia. See Michael Albert’s Thinking Forward.
Golden Parachutes for them …
Golden “rains” from above
f
a
l
l
i
n
g
on us.
Yes, yes.
DW
You in this day and age, I say skrew socialism.
I would prefer ESOP as a start.
Do you plan to write a diary on this – I think it deserves to be aired out.
Michael Albert and economist Robin Hahnel’s idea is a large step – getting rid of money for a non-transferable voucher is not a small change.
And some say communism with incentives is not that different, while others see union participation in management at the board level by law as in Germany achieves the same worker motivation.
There is a lot to discuss – I encourage you to set up a diary – and do not get discouraged if few comments – you will have a lot of readers.
Do you agree that Labor Day, the day before and the day after would be the perfect storm?
Yep but crap made out of filet mignon is still crap….
“Golden Parachutes for them …
Golden “rains” from above falling on us.”
That’s it.
That needs to be a bumper sticker.
T-shirt!!!
(When is FDL going to make use of the genius displayed on the threads?)
Splendid, Twain!
DW
Medicaid is controlled by the States as to benefits – perhaps a move to a different state would help?
Another T-shirt.
Margaret, I miss ya, and am true glad when your wicked-wise humor hits the threads.
;~DW
Obama gave away his presidency
Obama gave away his presidency a long, long, time ago.
This Deal will force Dems in DC to define why they exist?
What are Dems going to say we Yell at the Tea Party a lot, but the Tea Party always wins.
Chuck Todd, Luke Russert, think this is a Monday Night Football Game, for LOL
If I was a Dem in DC I would be running for the HILLS!!!
In 2008 some very bad people came to DC, and OBAMA has shitted on these people a lot.
Can Progressives list any thing Obama has done for them?
Obama has better find some progressives wins quick!
Some people don’t like getting fucked over!
I think a lot of people are getting a lot of strange phone calls tonight.
These are not nice phone calls.
Thanks for the explanation.
Stocks–even worker-owned stocks–are a BAD idea, as it encourages short-term profit-taking and “cashing out” that can destroy the whole system (i.e., the workers sell their stock to someone for a one-time sweet deal else and you’re right back to corporate land). Firms need to be able to raise capital, but the proper way to do it in a socialist market economy is by raising bonds. Bond purchasers buy those bonds with the expectation of a return, but have no sayso in the running of the company. The company leadership would be beholden to the workforce via “one person, one vote” elections. Workers can vote them in and vote them out.
The big difference I would predict from this system and our current system is this—right now, US companies “burn down the house to heat it” by declaring as profits for Wall Street funds which are really needed to keep the company in good long-term running shape. I see company after company being run as “cash cows” with precious little in the way of maintenance or reinvestment or R&D, all to produce profits to make the insatiable Wall Street clients happy. That’s the real reason, far more than any other, the US is becoming uncompetitive.
A worker-controlled company? If it’s like the folks I work with, the cry is “We need to BUY NEW STUFF”. We say that even more than we want big raises and bonuses.
-stewartm
You can’t keep markets for allocation. Not if you want classlessness, anyway. ESOPs (carried to their logical conclusion) are really just market socialism.
Historically, economies of scale have used either markets or central planning for allocation (the “divvying up” of resources among producers and consumers). Both destroy the possibility of classlessness, though in different ways. However, markets are even more socially destructive, beyond their class-inducing effects.
very few people in this contry know what a golden parachute is
lets kis..BHO
audacity of THEFT your SS
“And some say communism with incentives is not that different, while others see union participation in management at the board level by law as in Germany achieves the same worker motivation.”
Yes, the German system has many benefits.
But using the c word, communism, is neither accurate or appropriate.
It’s far to simplistic, such as saying socialism as an economic model.
But also in Germany, universal healthcare, with additions. The additions are private insurance, THAT IS HIGHLY REGULATED.
That’s the key.
No one pure system can work. The “purity” issue wrecks the damn thing. Doesn’t matter if it’s capitalism or socialism or communism or whatever -ism one prefers. It’s gotta be a mix. Because a mix allows for the best of all worlds.
Unfettered capitalism … well as we see it leads to massive corruption. And them peeing and shiteing on us. The whole “purity” thing.
No, he did not.
Yes! She is the awesome.
NY Times reports in part: …”According to Democratic officials close to the talks, among the final sticking points that were worked out were efforts to exempt the Medicaid program from reductions under the automatic spending reductions and make certain that the Medicare cuts hit health care providers, not beneficiaries.
Negotiators did agree that any deal would not include language that could lead to a new formula for the annual cost-of-living adjustments for Social Security beneficiaries that could save more than $100 billion in the first 10 years. While many economists have long said the existing formula overstates inflation, many Democrats oppose any change that would reduce benefits from current law.”
Isn’t it most likely that the recommendation of the Catfood Comm. 2.0 will suffer the same fate as all the rest of the Commissions and go nowhere? I know there is no revenue trigger here, but the triggered cuts don’t mandate chained CPI for SS or Medicare cuts to beneficiaries. If Obama is re-elected are we to assume he will let the Bush tax cuts expire?
Ya mean there is a state of reason, one not outsourcing conscience and humanity?
Do tell … where?
I imagine, papau, that interstate immigration will soon be frowned upon.
DW
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
Sadly I am quite ignorant on this.
I will have to research.
Please write a diary and educate us. We will thank you.
Whether or not parecon gets rid of money depends on how you define money. In any economy of scale, people have consumption rights. In capitalist economies, the greatest consumption rights accrue to those who own the most productive property. In coordinatorism, consumption rights accrue according to output. Under parecon, consumption rights accrue according to effort and sacrifice.
As a measure of consumption rights, money will still exist in a parecon.
peeps/pups i tired
we will fight tomorrow
I don’t know what your situation is, but protests are going to inconvenience somebody who’s not the target of the anger. If you’re more worried about getting home on time and not joining protesters in the protests we’re talking about here, your priorities seem a little screwed up. That falls in the divide I mentioned before. It’s easy to huff and puff here because your team lost (actually, continuing to serve the interests of the wealthy who own them), yet you can fantasize all you want about distant elections as being the solution because the rest of your life is fine.
“audacity of THEFT your SS”
Can we please make this into a bumper sticker?
Don’t assume anything. If O is re-elected all bets are off.
Eric, you must, if you’ve time, put up some diaries exploring those “lines”.
Seriously, well-considered.
And appreciated.
DW
My guess is they’re describing market socialism (since no one advocates central planning anymore). I’m not sure, though I’d bet Michael Albert has an essay about it somewhere.
No, Garamendi did not.
CALIFORNIA
Democrats – Baca, X; Bass, N; Becerra, N; Berman, N; Capps, N; Cardoza, N; Chu, N; Costa, N; Davis, N; Eshoo, N; Farr, N; Filner, N; Garamendi, N; Hahn, N; Honda, N; Lee, N; Lofgren, Zoe, N; Matsui, N; McNerney, N; Miller, George, N; Napolitano, N; Pelosi, N; Richardson, N; Roybal-Allard, N; Sanchez, Linda T., N; Sanchez, Loretta, N; Schiff, N; Sherman, N; Speier, X; Stark, N; Thompson, N; Waters, X; Waxman, N; Woolsey, N.
Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/07/29/2337333/house-roll-call-how-they-voted.html#ixzz1TjzxbdUU
Our current rentier class was created by our form of latter-day capitalism, where people get greater rewards for manipulating money than they get for actually producing goods and services. *That’s* why the money has flowed away from people who make things or deliver services into the non-productive money manipulators.
One of the things that needs to be done is to blow our “money manipulation” business up by abolishing privately held banks among other things. I’m for a national banking system as well, a bank of the US.
-stewartm
‘Night, sadlyyes, pleasant dreams.
DW
F assuming anything.
We know exactly what he will do.
Sell out America to his masters even more.
And now he doesn’t have reelection, he will be unstoppable.
YES WE CAN!!!!…….g
Oh, I didn’t finish an earlier thought: parecon doesn’t use markets or central planning for allocation. It uses a new allocation method it calls participatory planning, which may be thought of as horizontal planning. Even right-wing arch-marketeers like Milton Friedman acknowledged the complete inability of market economies to do any long-term planning. Put another way, if not for the government, we wouldn’t have the internet; the private sector would never have developed it. (That’s true of many other things as well.)
We should Primary the bastard already or forever hold our peace.
Diaries!
Please, stewartm.
And, thank you, for your thoughtful perspectives.
DW
Wrong rollcall.
That was the Boehner bill he voted against.
I believe he voted FOR the Reid bill yesterday, but I will double check real quick.
Your so right Carolyn. Now what are we going to do about it. We are sitting ducks for the right wingers….therefore we need to dump all of these spineless dems now. I still think all progressive organizations should get together with Labor Unions. They have the money and power to organize. We can replace Senate and Congressional leaders state by state and stop all of this. Ads running in all states identifying who voted to do this to us will be explosive, and when we get people to understand that the Washington Reps pay and benefits will remain the same while SS, Medicare and Medicaid is slashed……you will see these politicians dropping like flies. It can be done!!!
Our peas, you say?
;~DW
We have to consider Garamendi as a possible challenger to Obama.
Yes, he voted FOR this bill.
Glad Medicaid was untouched, otoh, like mentioned above, Medicaid varies state to state. If states lose money due to high unemployment and low taxes on the rich (less revenue) and less money from the federal government, then states will reduce the number of people who qualify. In some states it’s already extremely difficult to quality.
Even though he voted for the catfood commission??
That’s why it says “aye”
DW,
LOL! I had a taster and he told me the peas were poisoined.
Oh, LOL, I didn’t even notice his name was in the pic.
This was the vote:
CALIFORNIA
Democrats – Baca, X; Bass, N; Becerra, N; Berman, N; Capps, N; Cardoza, N; Chu, N; Costa, N; Davis, N; Eshoo, N; Farr, N; Filner, N; Garamendi, N; Hahn, N; Honda, N; Lee, N; Lofgren, Zoe, N; Matsui, N; McNerney, N; Miller, George, N; Napolitano, N; Pelosi, N; Richardson, N; Roybal-Allard, N; Sanchez, Linda T., N; Sanchez, Loretta, N; Schiff, N; Sherman, N; Speier, X; Stark, N; Thompson, N; Waters, X; Waxman, N; Woolsey, N.
Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/07/29/2337333/house-roll-call-how-they-voted.html#ixzz1TjzxbdUU
That’s the Boehner bill he voted against. Garimandi voted FOR the Reid bill with the Catfood Commission II Super Congress:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2011/roll682.xml
If you look at Grijalva’s name in the pink circle above, Garimandi is right above his as an “Aye” vote.
Then wut ‘appened to ‘im?
Porr … idge is gone, done daid an’ gone?
How do ya “test” the testers, ya know so ya know they tested the tasty?
Prolly kin get ‘em fer pea-nuts, right?
And wut do ya do wid the “used” testers?
DW
For the SECOND TIME, that’s the Boehner bill.
Nobody is saying he voted for the Boehner bill.
He DID vote FOR the Reid bill, complete with catfood commission II.
Essentially, workplaces are sets of tasks. In corporate-style workplaces, tasks are bundled according to their relative empowerment effects to create jobs. So tasks like “sweep the floor” or “empty the trashcan” get bundled to create the job of janitor. “Answer phones” and “file papers” becomes secretary. Hiring and firing and investment decisions become director of human resources, or whatever.
The point is that the empowering tasks are monopolized by a small segment of the workforce — maybe 18%-20%, that are not workers (though they do not own the workplace), but would more accurately be thought of as coordinators. That leaves maybe 1%-2% as owners, and the bottom 80% as order takers — workers.
Parecon doesn’t divvy up workplace tasks to create jobs of this type. Rather, tasks are bundled into what we might call balanced job complexes, giving everyone a fair mix of rote and empowering work. It doesn’t mean every person does every task — that would be impossible. It just means no one is stuck doing shit work all day while someone else gets to make decisions or do other empowering things all day.
Also, remuneration is not by ownership, or by output, but rather based on effort. And allocation is not accomplished by markets or by central planning, but rather by an iterative process where workers and consumers — who are actually the same people — come together and make collective decisions about how much “stuff” they want to make and how much time they want to take per week to make it.
Parecon is classless. There are no owners or coordinators — only workers — or, if you prefer, no class at all. There’s still authority and responsibility, it’s just not all monopolized by a small segment of the population.
There’s more to be said, of course, particularly about workers’ and consumers’ councils, as well as the planning process. Before Albert and Hahnel described participatory planning, no one thought a “third way” to accomplish allocation (that was not markets or central planning) was possible. However, Albert and Hahnel provided a mathematical model proving the viability of their model as well as its superior convergence to the other two models.
You must work for the Congressman.
I got salmon, veggies on the grill . . . but:
THIS IS WHY I LOVE THIS TOWN!!!
*G*
Bless ya, Mz. Hamsher . . . *scurriesbacktogrill*
I stand corrected.
Oops, I owe you a drink.
What’ll you have?
I think they are currently serving in congress, or on the tv news channels. There is something wrong with their cerebral functions after eating those Presidential peas.
Just like mine. Good ol’ Charlie Gonzalez. Guess that phone call Friday wasn’t forwarded to him. What a surprise.
Jane showed me the error of my ways.
Does anyone know how to get in touch with Adam Greene and the Move on People? I mean personally get in touch.
If you put this in diaries it can be archived and accessible whenever the need arises, Eric.
And arise it will.
Very good stuff for expanding thought-horizons beyond the flat-earth mentality of “mainstream” economists.
DW
Yeah, I saw that.
Sorry about the double team, wasn’t intentional.
YES, he did! Scroll up to the top of this page.
LOL, PP, I’m glad I had nothing liquid in hand or mouth …
(The cats think I’m havin’ an attack of some kind, and the dog is looking at me, askance …)
;~DW
A worker in a U.S. Ford factory, versus a Soviet Lada plant, versus a Yugoslav Yugo factory — except for language and cultural differences, their work lives were identical. That’s why when the left starts to talk about creeping fascism in the U.S., workers don’t care. Workers’ lives are already pretty fascist — at least the greater waking parts of them.
Why should workers care about the erosion of civil liberties, when they still have to deal with the same asshole boss every day? Coordinators, or other particularly well-educated people, may care a great deal about this. But to the working slob, it has no effect on his or her life anyway. So the left thinks people are apathetic, when really, the left isn’t touching people where they can really feel it.
Enter Fox News, which rails against the coordinators who make workers’ lives a living hell. Okay, that’s a little bit of an oversimplification, but it’s got a great deal of truth to it. People in the U.S. aren’t stupid or apathetic — the left just isn’t touching them in ways they can really feel. Instead of looking in the mirror and asking why, the left reverts to expressions of anti-working-class classism, which just serves to keep workers away from the left and instead watching Fox (to the extent workers do watch Fox, that is — many working people can’t stand Fox).
Anyway, that’s a big part of why I think pareconish theory is important. It helps orient activists to understand better ways to touch working people, I think. The fact that I also see it as indispensable for human survival is strictly a bonus.
I really do not see this bill going anywhere but down in flames in the House though. The teabaggers will hate and and so will the progressives (if you can call them that).
And Obama will simply let the country default because his modus operandi is to put it all on congress and keep his hands clean.
I’ve actually written some stuff here already, though it’s kind of piecemeal, like my thoughts often are. I don’t know how to do more than I’ve done. I’m actually not the BEST person to talk about parecon, but I’ll do in a pinch.
Aren’t there ANY members of Congress out there that see the trajectory on this and who are willing to say “over my dead [or at least not-re-elected] body”?
Hey, Mr. or Ms. Congressperson, so what if you don’t get re-elected. WTF are you thinking you’re gonna get done by staying in Congress? What is there that so desperately needs your support and promotion that you have to sell your soul & go along with Obama & the Dems, so that later your “pet project” or cause can be championed by you? And BTW, what makes you think that you would automatically lose if you vote against this tragic “compromise”?
Just stand up, do the right thing [vote against this monstrosity], let Obama and whoever else call you names. You should have learned this lesson in the health care/insurance give-away fiasco.
This is very true. Look at why and how the leftist have support in South America. They work with and help those in the villages etc. They know their plight and try to alleviate it. Instead of staying aloof from it.
Dear Rep Grjalva:
Not to worry! The very wealthy will be reduced to ruin by the very same relentless spiral into the abyss brought on by a hyperinflationary destruction of the U.S. economy that your cowardice, and the cowardice of your colleagues in Congress is guaranteeing by your collective refusal to reorganize a hopelessly insolvent banking system.
In fact, by your cowardice in willingness to be PLAYED you are hastening this end. We should all be grateful this nightmare soon will be over, then…
Sincerely,
A not-so-clueless, patriotic American
The baggers are going to vote for this because it is very close to the boner bill.
How and where is Obama going to campaign?
Obama is not trying to win in 2012. “this is more MSM kabuki”
I Obama the black man thought about cutting Social Security? this would have ended Obama political career.
But old OBAMA went further, he said he wanted to cut Social Security.
Come Tuesday Obama poll numbers are going to be so low, that Mitt Romney, Mitchell Bachmann, Rick Perry, are going to send their interior designers to the WH.
If I am Democratic Leader, I can care less about OBAMA right now.
I fear, a group of progressives stealing the base of my Party and taking over my CASH cow.
A lot of Democrats are speechless at the present moment, when they start talking, most of the words coming out will be of the 4 letter variety.
Damage control! is going to be in full bloom next couple of weeks for Dems.
Civil war is about to happen in the DEM party.
Obama said he likes Abraham Lincoln, he is about to get his own Civil War.
The DNC has to see this coming I hope?
I’m no so sure.
What do I believe? I’m not sure anymore but I used to believe that my vote actually meant something. Or my dollars. My point was not what I believe but what I’m supposed to believe if I vote for “progressive”: candidates and causes to which I contribute money. Only to have Jane Hamsher then tell me they are frauds.
I’ll say it here. Jane Hamsher for President! Let Jane primary Obama if she thinks there’s no one else. If Jane has a better way, she needs to change her message, run for office or start a revolution. If she wants to get people to support candidates then do that but then support them. If she wants to throw them under the bus because she thinks she can do better, then she just run for political office. I’ll vote for her.
I’d say you’re doing admirably well, Eric, and what I’ve seen here tonight will definitely send me to your diaries.
Thank you.
DW
Stewart -
Do you really understand how it works? The stock ownership programs aren’t liquid stocks; it’s not like you can day trade ESOP shares.
You also know that there is a lot of short term profit taking with bond market trading, right? You can day trade bonds like you can stocks. The volume of stock trades is a mere fraction of the volume of bond trades on any given day…
I’m watching MSGOP and I’ve seen several of them who’ve already said their caucus is going to support it. The rat bastard aka POTUS wouldn’t have come out on teevee unless he was assured of the votes by Pelosi and boner.
The Boehner bill passed, so I’m guessing this one, since it has the blessing of R leadership, will pass as well.
I just wish someone, ANYONE, would object to the vote tomorrow in the Senate and force it to require 60 votes to get as many Democrats on record as possible.
And they don’t have to delay it any longer by waiting for cloture to be filed. They can simply object to the original vote, then let Reid make a unanimous consent that the cloture vote take place immediately.
Unfortunately it’s not just the president. It’s nearly all of congress. Obama is not apparition of what’s wrong but the very epitome of it.
She really doesn’t want to, jonerik, which is one off the reasons why she would be a wonderful “break” from current, deadly “tradition”.
I had a wee chat with her earlier today, about this very thing.
DW
Here, maybe this will help. Anthony is wrong.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2011-682
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-2693
With Debbie Wasserman-Schultz as Chairman? Are you kiddin’ me? This is a neoliberal’s wet dream come true. She and all the Vichycrat mouthpieces will be spinnin’ this motherfucker like it’s God’s gift to America.
TPAZ-
Did you look at the image at the top of the post?
Garamendi’s name is at the top of the list.
edit: nevermind, I see that others have mentioned this already.
Yeah, that’s true.
He could simply be mistaken rather than outright lying.
I shouldn’t have said that.
My apologies Anthony.
“We can replace Senate and Congressional leaders state by state and stop all of this. Ads running in all states identifying who voted to do this to us will be explosive.” I agree. This is a gotcha moment for Dims. They show they’re true colors if they agree to this attempt to use a knife to slash the social safety net. They can run but they can’t hide….
I can already hear the shouts of “Amen!”, SD.
A neoliberal’s wet dream, fer sure.
You heard anything from Chomsky of late?
And while we’re talking of the old guard, anything from Raven, except drive-bys?
I think Raven might be having some things of interest to say to some of the younger chaps who’ve been “seasoned” in the ME. Saw conversations, yesterday, and thought of him, immediately.
DW
Read the information at the link. Sound familiar?
Inside the Mind of a Sociopath
Raven is not too happy with any of us here at the Lake, if his most recent posts are any indication. Well, some of us more than others I suppose, which is cool. Do hope he’s doing well though.
Chomsky. Pretty much have to go his website. Not a lot of new stuff from him. He’s in his 80s and lost his wife a couple years ago. Not as active as he was.
Raven. What OFG said.
Okay, I noted that yea vote even before I started reading this, thread, but due to a lack of Garamendi’s explanation for that vote, I am not going to hold him to a cultish purity test when his voting record ( http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=29664 )clearly demonstrates he has solidly stayed in the Progressive house throughout….
Yes, OFG. Raven has my respect and appreciation, as do the younger folks who have been “there”, as it brings on a much lowered tolerance of Bullshit that is most wonderfully important, and necessary, today.
DW
Hey SD.
It’s been near and over 100 degrees here for past few days. How damn hot is it down where you are???
Ugh, I can’t even imagine it.
Appreciate the link, SD.
Thank you.
DW
You answered my question. Too bad. If a moron like Michele Bachmann can run for President, I don’t know why Jane can’t. But I can also understand someone who actually understands how a job like that might be outside the reach. We must all take a step back to appreciate what pressure our elected officials must be under at this moment. Because I don;t think anyone of them, including the President has any idea what may come of the coming days. Even though I believe in my heart, it’s all a charade to cover over another grand heist which people will wake up to realize years from now.
Actually not too bad. In the mid 90s most days.
This is my comment at #29. Italics is an edit I just made.
“Inasmuch as the Dems in toto couldn’t stop any bill in the House what reason is there for any of them to vote for such a piece of shit? Even if a Dem was totally ideologically in bed with the Regressives s/he could still vote no to appease his/her constituents with no consequences.”
Get him to explain that away.
Trump thinks torture is fine. Thanks, but NO thanks.
“With Debbie Wasserman-Schultz as Chairman? Are you kiddin’ me? This is a neoliberal’s wet dream come true.”
i don’t think anyone is shock by OBAMA caving? Obama always punches hippies
remember the Fat Kid that kick the Bully ass, because he had enough, we may be approaching that moment when the Hippies say enough is enough!
People hated Obama befor 7-31-2011, this deal will not win him any friends.
Debbie is in over her HEAD!!! she probably will resign soon.
the Hell that will be taking over the DNC is going to make 1968 look like a peace rally.
A lot of people are not taking this well!
the WH wanted the House to vote tonight, come tommorrow morning everyone may be singing a different tune, or running for the HILLS.
the WH has better develop a list showing progressives what Obama has won for them?
Con Men like OBAMA careers do not end very well.
If he can’t explain it away satisfactorily, I will be researching other avenues to a primary challenge….
I’m going to call his office in the morning.
Perhaps too good?
The rest of what you say suggests considered thought and compassion.
I hope that you will consider working with this community as your principles are clearly in line with the direction which most here are firmly committed to following …
I am certain that from the bleak and black despair now felt by so many, that a new understanding of the value and sacred magic of the opportunity of life, on this planet, will arise.
That is not mindless optimism, but the truth which I have learned in my sixty four years, I have witnessed profound and substantive change for the better.
My “involvement” began in 1961, when I was fourteen, with Civil Rights and continued through my experiences with resistance to the war in Vietnam, and then further to articulating the economic failures clearly evident to me by the late sixties. I am gratified to have been part of the larger movement for genuine change and find some satisfactions in such contributions as I have been able to make as well as those instances when conscience forced power to blink and to retreat.
What is life if it cannot find resonance with potential and possibility consonant with considered thought, understanding, and imagination?
I am convinced, jonerik, that we have all been preparing for this time and I suspect that your heart will agree, for I know that you have contibuted and builded those things which have made this a better world.
There is still yet much work to do.
DW
Joeblue:Where did you get that imformation?I’ve never heard that.Varify
Oops – you’re correct.
In my defense, the NYT changed the description of the roll call after I was there.
I second DWBartoo’s suggestion on the diary. Your comments here and at 299 are thoughtful and useful–much more so than calling people losers or telling them to shut up. :)
Jane, I think you are extremely smart, creative, and I recognize that you know more about Washington inside baseball than I can ever hope to.
I have a question about your call to “punish” progressives that vote against their constituencies. It has to do with how you talk about the Tea Party.
Time and again in your posts you credit the Tea Party for having super discipline, and “taking out” the people that disagree with them.
But we know based on great journalism that the Tea Party is actually a small astro-turfed “movement” invented by corporate media ( Fox News ) & corporate oligarchs ( like the Koch Bros ).
It’s not like the Tea Party are brilliant little-guy organizers, or politically savvy geniuses. It’s just that they side with the rich corporate oligarchs that actually run this country!
My point is, isn’t it the case that the right-wing movement is _always_ more politically effective than the left-wing one BECAUSE it sides with the rich and powerful?
It just seems like you’re making the Tea Party out to be more effective than they actually are. When really, it’s just that those deluded fools happen to be cheering for the side that is _actually_ effective: ( i.e. the corporate oligarchs ).
I’m sorry if I’m posting this in the wrong place. I love your analysis, and literally signed up for this site so I could ask you this question.
Yes, but get this: It’s not for anyone to seriously challenge Obama. It’s just to get the left’s perspective into the election.
But Grijalva is still going to be called a liberal by the media.
And in the end, isn’t that all that really matters?
The man doesn’t have an ounce of shame in his body. He’s looking down to hide the satisfaction in his eyes–things are going according to script.
Unfortunately, he IS a liberal, compared to the current drop of congresspeople. Problem is, that gains us exactly nothing, since liberal seems to have acquired the definition of “says the right things, but folds like a cheap suit.”
I haven’t posted on this site in a while because I disagreed with Jane’s strategy. However her current strategy I’m starting to agree with.
Hell yes we should primary Grijalva.
So…where’s the plan Jane? Where’s the action call? Every time I get an e-mail from PCCC it’s trumpeting a Sanders statement. So where’s the action? Where’s the start of the primary?
I wait ready to donate for the first time in my political life to your campaign to get Sanders and Grijalva the hell out.
So where is it?
Your vote has no effect.
In 2012, after all this complaining, all you firedogs are going to vote to continue the four-decade-long Democratic party assault on labor.
In October of 2012, Rachel Maddow, Thom Hartman & their ilk, after three years of complaining about conservative Democrats, are going to whip up a fear vortex around those crazy Republican candidates – liberals always fall into this vortex and then vote for Democrats, not because the party platform is progressive (it never is), but out of fear of the other party.
Some of you may have the courage to vote third-party, that only helps elect Republicans as its primary effect the same as decreasing voter turnout.
Others will decide that elections have become too revolting to participate and decide not to vote – this decreases voter turnout and helps elect Republicans.
Those are your choices, vote Democratic and get what you have now – conservative policy. Or, vote third-party (or don’t vote) and still get conservative policy.
The only effect you can have is to throw the Dems out.
The only way to throw the Dems out is to vote Republican. It’s like getting two votes – the Dem loses one vote and the Republican gains one vote.
If 4% of progressives in each district were to do this, that would amount to an 8% swing in the vote from the Democrat to the Republican. I don’t think too many Dems would survive.
Democrats are going to do nothing for progressives until you show them that you will not vote for them. The billions that Obama is going to spend in 2012 is to sway a small percentage of brainless swing voters – the progressive vote can be counted on because progressives have no point where they say “enough” and leave the Dems.
In 2008 the Dems wet their pants when they realized they controlled both houses of Congress and the White House.
How could the Dems now avoid implementing progressive policy and continue to serve the elites without alienating their base?
They told us that you needed 60 votes in the Senate to pass any legislation. Good bye Medicare-for-all, good bye Card Check.
Funny, after the 2000 elections, Republicans controlled the House, the White House and the senate was split 50-50. Recall then that the corporate media told us that Bush could still get his agenda through the senate as the vice-president would be the tie breaking vote – no mention of the filibuster then (not even from the Dems).
Not only did the 2000 Senate Dems not filibuster but eight Dems voted for the 2001 Bush tax cuts. 33 Dems had the courage to vote against this bad piece of legislation that was going to pass anyhow. Seven Dems didn’t bother to vote (including Boxer and the one that wears tennis shoes from Washington state).
With Republican victories in 2012,Romney, Mcconnell & Bohner will wet their pants – they will have to implement crazy conservative policy (which has always increased debt). Conservative policy has always failed (think 2008 & 1929). A 2013 conservative government bailout of the again-failed elite will occur and then maybe those white people in the south will realize that their grandparents were wise to have voted Democratic.
I rise to defend Grijalva.
His vote was equivalent to politicl theater. To wit, the “critical” vote comes later today, and after the Senate considers it’s self-aggrandizement. The House will have to vote on what the Senate sends over. And that’ where Grijalva’s “yardstick” actualized, will be viewed and his historical relevance will be found. Consequently, will he represtenting his “constituency” or his “progressive” credentials?
And I much prefer his “constituency.”
Thus, our esteemed Jane, jumped the starter’s gun.
Jaango
The Reid bill was not going to pass the House, so in my opinion any position taken on it by Democrats (Progressive and otherwise) was not going to be as meaningful as it would on a vote where the outcome was in doubt. I do think it’s odd that not even one member of the Progressive Caucus stood up and opposed the Reid bill, if only because it would have been a good opportunity to get some attention as a lone defender of progressive values, and most politicians jump at the chance to “stand out” when the down side for doing so seems minimal. Jane Hamsher’s explanation for why no self-described House Progressives opposed the Reid bill is that they’re not truly progressive, but are instead corrupt, cowardly sell-outs. Maybe. But even if that’s true, it seems to me the temptation for any one of them to oppose that bill on an essentially meaningless vote — to grandstand, in a sense — would have been very great. Yet none did so. If they are as cowardly as Jane says, here was the perfect opportunity to camouflage that cowardice with a show of “principle”, at no cost.
I’m honestly not sure what conclusion to draw from the fact that not even one member broke from the Progressive Caucus on what turned out to be a meaningless vote. You’d think political opportunism alone would have led somebody to oppose the bill. Maybe the discipline in that caucus is better than I would have imagined. Is it even possible the Democrats (and indirectly the Progressives) got something good (?) in the final bill in return for a show of party unity on the Reid vote? (Or they got something bad left out of the final bill.) Maybe I’m over-thinking this, and they’re all as venal and awful as Jane says. I’ll be interested (sort of) to read the history of this episode.