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“I would like the President to explain why Jeh Johnson is now saying that what he told the public on March 11 is not true. Jeh Johnson said the Pentagon only began their review of this situation two weeks, as opposed to five weeks ago when they told the President that they had. So now that they’ve acknowledged that Manning’s treatment was punitive, as Jim Miklashevski has reported, and that he was not being held appropriately (he was being held in maximum security conditions because he was supposedly so dangerous, and now he’s going to medium security), the President needs to be explain why he was either misled, or chose to mislead the public himself.”
Jane’s not done at MSNBC today – look for her on the Dylan Ratigan show with former State Department spokesman PJ Crowley in the 4pm hour.
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Did I tell you i love you today Jane, you keep going.
Thanks Jane. Obama needs to wear Manning around his neck.
Go Jane!! Thank you!!
Wouldn’t that be loverly.
O is cleverer than WI Walker in the sense of keeping all his anti-peeps stuff from boiling over, and sending out pacifiers to the Ds. But O is so far to the right, that it is not out of the question that one of his moves will backfire.
Not holding my breath, but think it’s a possibility.
Hold his feet to the fire, Jane. The hall-mark of the Obama administration is lack of accounting for responsibility. Don’t let his remarks go down the memory hole like everything else. I am persuaded that they moved Manning because they were getting heat from European governments.
Bradley Manning is fortunate to have an advocate like Jane Hamsher. There are many people in our society who are really hurting. I just talked to a friend from work whose daughter tried to commit suicide a few days ago. Things are getting tougher, harder, more extreme.
I’m grateful for this site as a conduit for information, a place to share with friends, and for the pulpit when it’s needed.
Jane was great today! As always had all the factoids in a row and was spot on with what is at stake for everyone… Habeas Corpus..
obama doesn’t have time – he’s campaigning. What’s important to this miserable fraud is his re-election.
Good on Jane Hamsher….However,Anyone remember Jose Padilla,well some democrats used Padilla’s treatment by GWBush to gain political office,one that comes to mind readily is AlFranken.
AlFranken when he was on Air America talked about Padilla & what the GWBush WH was doing to him as one of the reasons why he was going to run for the Senate….He frequently lamented Paul would not tolerate this, meaning Paul Wellstone.
Well, has anyone heard anything from AlFranken on Bradley Manning or Jose Padilla since AlFranken became a Senator ?Noe of the 2 major political parties represents our interest,This is therefore a fight between We the people vs the political elites & the Corporations.It may sound unpleasant but that’s the reality.
Good point re Franken.
And no one has ever stood up for John Walker Lindh, the real precedent setting case of how innocent Americans would be treated.
They are treating a human rights problem like a PR problem.
Obama sure sounded different in Illinois when he got passed a bill requiring the police to tape confessions. What happened to that Obama?
Should we look for a Pod?
You know, B, I forgot to mention in my list that this site is a place for anyone to rip on an elected official who isn’t mentioning every little problem that the commenter cares about. There are a lot of issues to deal with. It’s affective for a person to pick a few issues and focus on those. That’s how I see it. But, just because someone is not screaming about your issue doesn’t mean that they are lazy or wrong. Just something for you to think about. But, I do understand that many here like to come and rant and judge others.
I don’t believe Lindh was innocent, from what I know. But then again you may have better info, or a different definition that I could accept. Since I generally find your comments spot-on, except for this one, I’d be inclined to agree with you.
In any event, torture is forbidden, whether the person in custody is innocent or guilty. I’m sure all of us at FDL can agree on that.
I really thought his comment was a very good historical perspective. I do not know how accurate all this is about Franken. But if he’s got it right, we need the reminder. What annoyed you so much?
We need jobs and a reason to hope between the bank bail out and all the bad bank debt the fed took off the bank’s books we have spent how many billions bailing out the banks?
Why can’t we bail out America by creating jobs? Tax cuts don’t create jobs.
Bradley leaked information that is helping end the war I see no convincing case being mad he leaked information that harms American troops.
Yes he leaked about war crimes but the Afghans and Iraqi’s already knew we were committing war crimes.
Bradley’s crime is telling the American People whats being done in their name.
The Ruling class and their puppet Media does not think we understand.
We understand that to keep the wars going the Ruling class wants out Social Security, our Pensions, Medicare etc…plus they want a tax decrease.
They treat everything like a PR problem, just like the Bush administration did. There isn’t a sheet of paper’s difference between the two administrations in that respect. Government by PR. If that doesn’t work, then apply PF (Pure Force)
We see differently, I guess. I wasn’t so much annoyed as bored by continuing comments that call out this or that voice because, as I said in my comment, that person isn’t shouting about x, y, z, issue. What I’m saying is that there are a lot of issues and no one person can fight for them all.
Did I sound so annoyed? Just making my feelings known.
Do you speak out on every issue every day? Of course not. No one can.
I usually say what I mean, but thanks for asking for clarification.
I agree. And, especially about hope. I’d love to see hope. I don’t have a paying job, but I volunteer 20 hours a week to help others.
I pay attention to what’s going on, but I prefer to be hopeful by helping others.
I thought a good point was made about Al Franken and didn’t mind the reminder. For me, it seemed apt at this point. Inquiring minds disagree sometimes. Best to you.
Thanks so much to Jane and ongoingly fine job that she’s doing. I am so sickened by the treatment of Pfc. Bradley Manning… done in MY name, whether I agree or not. Any means to hold Obama accountable for this and shine a light on this disgrace is very good thing.
Keep on fighting, Jane! I’m with you all the way.
Thanks Jane as always you are awesome!!
I wish we could as a country realize what’s happening before it’s too late but history indicates we will not…
I felt that what I said was also apt. I’m just sorry that the way I made my comment didn’t touch you. And, I wish you the best also.
“You know, B, I forgot to mention in my list that this site is a place for anyone to rip on an elected official who isn’t mentioning every little problem that the commenter cares about”
There seems to be cognitive dissonance here. In post 6 you praise Jane for calling out Obama “who isn’t mentioning every little problem that the commenter cares about” regarding Manning then six posts later you go and criticize someone else for doing what you had just praised.
I thought he was a bit nuts. But torture can do that to a person. He should lose his citizenship be banned from America but he would I would argue be considered a POW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh
Without refreshing my memory, Lindh was caught on the battlefield, as a soldier for the Taliban, fighting a scrappish war that he got caught in the middle of. He allegedly met OBL, but that was before 9/11, and was related to his studies of Islam, nothing to do with antiamericanism.
He had no f’n idea what had happened on 9/11 in the U.S. when he was captured.
He was wounded & on death’s door from cold & malnutrition when he was picked up, interrogated without proper medical care.
His father hired a lawyer for him, but he was not informed that he had a lawyer until the interrogation was far advanced.
His lawyer did a plea bargain bc he was smarter than I was at the time. IOW, I wondered WTF had a hippy Islam studying guy who got caught up in world events done that in any way endangered the U.S., who he didn’t even know he was “fighting.” But his lawyer knew Lindh was going to be the poster boy for scapegoating every thing on, and, as I said, his lawyer saw the political reality that I missed, so did the plea bargain, rather than risk inflamed emotions in court.
As I said, I did not refresh my memories of the time, so correct anything I misremember.
Got me beat maybe I do maybe 5 hours a week volunteering.
Wow, talk about lacking hope. Not to disagree…just such a sad comment. I was thinking the other day that we are not any longer “the home of the brave & the land of the free.” What all have we lost….we are not free in so many ways we used to take for granted, and we are controlled and governed by fear. Who woulda thought…..Is it really too late? I surely hope not, and I guess that is an open question.
i also thought the point about al franken was worth reading and thinking about.
They are badly treating everything like a PR problem the Bushies and Obama never respected voters enough to even tell a good lie when they were caught doing stupid stuff.
I wonder how many war crimes Hugh’s list has on Obama and how much more he has to do to pass Bush?
I never thought I would be wondering that 2 years ago.
I absolutely disagree…(Torture)is not a little problem.
And for all the concern AlFranken showed about Padilla & torture…well I stand by the comments @9,AlFranken has been MIA big time.
On the other hand,if none of us is going to piss & moan then we can expect what happened to Manning & Padilla to be the norm soon.
and to grease up and apply that Magnificent ‘Merican Murder Machine.
There’s no end to the bloodletting with these criminals with big guns.
I didn’t mean to express that torture is not a little problem.
Clearly, I’m in the minority here and frankly I absolutely think all ya’ll have a right to not hear me.
Shaking the dust off my sandals. See ya.
As said, this piece is a reminder of so much that Jane has done and also of her smarts and persistence and courage. She really was the force that brought the Manning issue to public interest and outrage…still hard to tell what the Pres. has known all along.
It’s not a competition. Again, sorry for being so obtuse and misleading in my comments.
Can’t find no mention of war crimes he just joined the other side and shot at Americans it seems that makes him a traitor. But well a POW type traitor not a war criminal 20 years seems a bit excessive.
I’m no lawyer but he seems to have been disgusted with America and left at 18 in a sense he resigned his citizenship except for his need for a passport.
I am not sure if you can defacto resign your citizenship but I think he effectively did.
I know its not a competition Demi:)
I do not remember that he was disgusted with the U.S. or de facto resigned his citizenship, only that he was studying Islam in a search for himself. But I’ve been eating an artichoke so haven’t googled even his wiki, which I’ll now review.
I have a strong memory that he had no clue what had happened in U.S. on 9/11, and was not consciously fighting against the U.S.
Paul Wellstone, RIP, wore some damn big shoes.
We can play a game that would piss Obama off mix and match torture, police misconduct etc stories about Bradley with several African Americans on death row and then play guess what prisoner suffered what guess which prisoner was tortured how, guess which prisoner was made to confess.
Link Bradley to how African Americans are treated by the Prison system and watch Obama’s African American activist support wither that is if Obama’s horrible record in creating jobs for African Americans has not already ruined that.
Fire it up Jane.
From Lindh’s wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh
I assume if you join a foreign army you must renounce all other ties to all other countries before they give you a gun. If he was motivated by Northern Alliance atrocities I admit the story seems doubtful everything about this story is doubtful well we were backing the Northern Alliance.
If this story was true he was trying to stop America’s puppet from doing war crimes. Defense of others is a valid defense in criminal court I don’t know how that works in military court.
Please demi don’t leave…I hear ya I am sure everyone else respects your view.I know you are a very kind & gentle person who hates conflict but on the other we can only progress as a country if people raise hell at times.
I miss Wellstone big time. And I’m so disappointed about Franken. I thought once he was seated he’d use his prodigious humor and smarts and ability to think on his feet in strong service of what’s right. But what we got instead was his becoming very serious and very quiet.
I, myself, question seriously the “factual basis” for these wars but that’s just me.
No legitimate war, no war crimes on his part.
We do do war crimes though.
During their dispute over the 2008 election, Franken and Norm Coleman competed for who was a bigger supporter of Israel’s Gaza war.
Nice BMcGarth:) seconded! but I do have to go now for personal reasons bye!
Agreed Bye:)
I didn’t mean leave forever. It just seems I need to fine tune my communications skills. I’ll be back when I feel more confident. Thanks.
Franken has been assimilated.
I’m with eCAHN. Lindh was no terrorist.
ThingsComeUndone writes:
> I assume if you join a foreign army you must
> renounce all other ties to all other countries
> before they give you a gun.
Sure. Like Rahm Emanuel?
Yeah! seems that way.
Why would you assume that?
Think all sides in Afghanistan armed anyone they could lay their hands on. Don’t think they were too careful about where their fighters came from or the legal niceties of citizenship. Think you have a much more formal situation in mind than anything that ever prevailed in Afghanistan.
U.S. had not entered the Afghan fray when Lindh fought against NA, so his participation had nothing to do with the U.S.
Demi, Certainly no one intended to offend you….You always contribute. Sorry if I caused you any angst….not at all intended. Just had a different thought….;)
Or Jeffery Goldberg…! ;-)
Well, I don’t think we can reform politically like this. I don’t think working on local elected officials (grass roots approach) will work (see what’s happening in MI for example) that or they will just become bought or be made insignificant. It obviously doesn’t work on a national level where you need millions just to run. The SCOTUS is toast for the rest of my lifetime at the least. We don’t have any institutions with enough “base” to hold against the onslaught of corruption/propaganda to the media, the government, the military and the people who only watch TV for news (usually older). I’ve been watching this since Mr. North and Iran/contra and CIA/coke/crack days; we’re worse now and we get worse with every new presidency. China and India are where the next “consumers” are at and they are bringing the “shock doctrine” to the USA in it’s own unique fashion. Selling off of public assets to anyone. I could see Michigan being renamed “McDonalds” in 10 years or China owning all the highways in S. Dakota. I don’t know what it will take to wake us up…we’re in 3 1/2 (Pakistan) wars now, there’s no or not many good jobs (unless McD’s is good) and there’s no reason to think there will be. No reform from Katrina, from BP, from the wall street crash, from torture (we just keep enhancing seeing how quickly we can start crushing “anyone” who protests, think of B. Manning as a “test” case) or illegal wars (cause that’s the only one’s we seem to do now) I bet they are taking notes from what’s happening in Egypt, etc. to ensure they can prevent peaceful protests here down the road if they fear it. The news will make up a good excuse why it had to be done.
Everyone knows we’re in a bad way as a country and yet nothing moves or changes the direction..that is sad.
Love the accurate and punchy framing: treating a “human rights problem” as if it were a “PR problem”.
nice, I wanna ask him what happened and how did it happen so damn quick (maybe he was told he’d get wellstoned ?)
Now why would ya think that…?
That is the rule for fighting in western armies, with the possible exception of France’s Foreign Legion. No matter, it’s an oath that’s not taken remotely as seriously as one’s oath to fight with one’s comrades in battle, and to be loyal to them no matter what.
As I hope Jeff Kaye will comment on, keeping Manning isolated and disoriented (through surprise changes in location and routine) is the key to fully exploiting him, to breaking him psychologically and to eliciting from him what it hopes is damning evidence, however accurate in fact, against Julian Assange and WikiLeaks.
At least as important is demonstrating the president’s Cheney-like ability to do WTF it wants with hiss prisoner, the law and civil criticism be damned. It’s how we win against terrorists, dontchyaknow.
The idea that Mr. Manning’s jailers are doing anything remotely in his interest should be laughed off the airwaves.
Thanks. I was unaware that it is a “rule” for fighting in western armies, which is a good thing for me to know.
But as your comment continues, I think my point about Afghanistan free-for-all is the substance of the matter.
Next Q: It you violate the “rule” is it a crime in your home country to renounce it & fight in a war where neither side is your home country? I’m thinking of CIA operatives.
I disagree… I think it’s the only way…! See Wisconsin…!
Conflicts don’t often arise as a practical matter.
Typically, formally, in order to join a country’s armed forces, you have to publicly renounce prior loyalties to an earlier sovereign and swear loyalty to your new sovereign. Where the interests of both sovereigns align (US-Canada, Canada-Britain), the norms can more readily be bent or loyalties deemed to co-exist. Once you have disowned a former sovereign, you no longer owe it or them loyalty. As with all oaths, the issue is credibility (and the desperation or needs of the service).
Practically, states don’t always respond that neatly. So, it’s not a good idea to travel willy nilly between a former and current sovereign’s countries or their controlled spheres, especially where those sovereigns don’t get along (as with the US-former USSR during the Cold War).
I recall during the election someone talking on the Moyers’ program, reflecting on W’s expansion of powers, signing statements, etc., and saying a new Pres. never gives up any of the enlarged powers for the Executive….I can almost recall a (mine) sneaking thought that surely Obama would not be like that….how naive can one be? And how telling the comments were as we continue to hurdle to this world of expanded powers and loss of privacy. Sickening that we are living thru this; wonder what the Obamas think they are creating for their daughters.
CIA operatives are a different issue than serving openly in the military.
If a CIA employee is operating under official cover, they will normally have diplomatic immunity. If operating under a NOC, you are legally and practically exposed; power and the willingness to exercise it on your behalf is all that protects you. (See, eg, Raymond Davis).
Spying is traditionally a crime. Spying for a foreign power against your own country is a classic case of treason; the penalty is death or a long term of imprisonment. If that’s your hypothetical, I would suggest putting all your affairs in order before undertaking the assignment.
This is a terrific idea!!! If you have time to put something like this together, please post it! I think lots of us would like to play this game with our friends and co-workers!!!
Lndh’s joining the Afghani Army under Taliban rule would hardly be like a Mexican national joining the US Army or other such western militaries…!
“Everyone knows we’re in a bad way as a country and yet nothing moves or changes the direction..that is sad.”
Yes, it’s been quite the jawdropping 3 decades of slo-mo freefall. At least Jane and others get to show up on peoples’ teevees once in a while to try and set them straight.
Right now IMMO (in my myopic opinion -p) the entities that need to be neutered are the MSM and the corporate pockets behind them and the anti-people agenda. Perhaps citizen initiatives in every state to dissolve corporate charters and media ownership rules. Or a million of us moving to Delaware to do that (where most co.s are registered). I was reading Hartmann’s last book and he mentioned that, way back when, corporations couldn’t exist for more than 40 years. We take back the airwaves and dissolve the pockets behind the anti-citizen spin, and issues like Manning and torture can stay on everyone’s front burner where they belong. Accountability only follows when everyone is talking about it and the people set the agenda.
I have a couple of comments. The first is that for two days there has not been any mention of Bradley Manning on NPR. I am just shocked by that since they have proven lately that they are such good journalists covering the misstatements of so many officials. The second is that I doubt that you could have said the taliban in Afghanistan was fielding a real army for a real state. It was probably closer to being the armed force of a war lord with no questions asked about citizenship. Also, I don’t think that they had any real proof that JWL actually fired any shot at American troops, so the US government was happy to have a plea bargain done.
We never quite had to live with the personhood of corps, as I recall. What an oxymoron. Like having a bad relative. Really bizarre. But persons have to pay taxes….so nothing makes sense. Thanks for the reminder;)
Whoa Nelly…! Now, why on earth would I possibly want to move to Delaware…? ;-)
To live among you corporate relatives?;)
I didn’t say that any of us not already living in DEL wanted to move there. Just as RevBev said @74, that’s where the overwhelming majority of corporations have incorporated because of corp-friendly laws. So that’s where WE go in numbers to change the laws that harbor them. Then, as they bolt to other states, we return to where we were living before, but now the bastids are on the run, uprooted, and we start to focus on dissolving their corporate charters, placing limits on their mating habits (limiting their mergers, haha, perhaps the one issue where progressives could get in on the restricting of someone’s reproductive rights ) and returning (not raising) their tax rates and tax enforcement back where they belong. I don’t know that any of us want to go to DEL, but if a million other progressives want to, then we won’t have to! :)
Ditto.
It’s important to point out the hypocrisy in the name of partisanship.
It’s NOT okay when someone wearing a *D* label does what we rightfully raged against when the *Rs* did it.
But, but, it gets cold in Delaware…! ;-)
Are you all going to put up the Dylan interview? I tried to watch it at Dylan’s site, but the MSNBC player is broken. I got to the part where Jane complimented PJ Crowley on his courage and his smile was priceless.
The Dylan Ratigan segment with Jane Hamsher and PJ Crowley from today is located here.
/~~~
Muchas Gracias ;)
I recommend a two phased approach: 1. Continue to harp on Manning’s treatment. 2. Follow the fucking Constitution and charge the man, present habeous corpus info, and then convict him ( I think in some quarters it is called a trial).
Someone needs to ask Obama why the military is violating the Constitution and not timely charging Manning? Ask Obama when is the trial of A REAL FUCKING AMERICAN incarcerated for years. Give us a date when justice will prevail.
Even Rethugs can get behind that one.
And if Al had made a stand on Manning’s behalf, and it didn’t result in more humane and constitutional treatment for him, then he would’ve been blasted by many here as a shameful sonofabitch (see Kucinich). Damned if you do or don’t.
I fear you are right Jane, as I tried posting yesterday. I believe that Obama thinks that Pvt. Manning falls under the Bush’s unconstitutional Military Commissions Act of 2006, that he has been declared a “combatant” and is due to be “lost” at Ft. Leavenworth. I guess Obama has forgotten that they put the Great Writ of habeas corpus back in the US Constitution, therefore a speedy trial before an election just is not going to happen.
Go, Jane, go!