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Now that three of the nation’s largest newspapers–the Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and New York Times–have editorialized about the unacceptable conditions of the still-untried Bradley Manning, and a high-level State Department official was forced to resign over his remarks about Manning’s treatment, you can no longer plausibly deny that the issue hasn’t risen to the attention of the President of the United States. As such, he is now fully and directly responsible. To paraphrase Harry Truman, the buck has now stopped.
So, I would like to simply request, just this once, that President Obama engages in some of that looking backwards of which he is so famously not fond.
Because if Obama looked way back, he would be reminded of some very old-fashioned and, apparently, now quaint notions. For example, the belief that before the government punishes someone, they are responsible for first actually proving that individual is guilty. (Fifth Amendment) And the conviction that punishment should never be cruel or unusual. (Eight Amendment)
I sadly don’t expect that to happen because it seems only “looking forward, not backwards” is integral to the strategy of “winning the future.” Of course, if this is behavior Obama feels is necessary for him to win the future, I think I might prefer losing.
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From the outside looking in, (I’m Canadian), this Bradley Manning dude did something pretty illegal – and is in the slammer for it. While your justice department tries to figure out what to do with the guy (treason is tricky) they’ve put him away where he won’t bother anyone.
It’s a crappy situation for all involved, but the hyperbolic over the top reaction from the left on this (and I’m as leftist as anyone – Canadian eh?), is mystifying to behold.
Surely there are better outlets for the bulk of your outrage than this considering who currently sits in the speaker’s chair.
Do you honestly think Bradley Manning is the most fucked up thing in your country right now?
/just saying.
Hey, once the Bush administration established the unitary executive and broke the shackles of the rule of law, there’s no longer any need to look back. That would only limit our possibilities. Now there’s no mountain too tall, or valley…or gulley…or sewer…too low.
too low
Keep the heat on, and Obama will find a scapegoat for this travesty. If he signed off on it, however, the information will eventually come out and he will be cooked.
Eh? Rush & Glenn, no doubt, have got Obama’s back(wards), and Obama can go forward blissfully bc the rightwingers have by now been duly instructed to hate on all those dreadful LIEbrul newspapers: the NYTimes, LA Times and WaPoooo. So Obama doesn’t have *worry* about what those LIEbrul rags have said about Manning. Obama’s “good to go” and to fahgedaboud Manning bc the Military (who never lies) said Manning’s treatment is “A-ok.”
No snark intended. I avoid RushGlenn at all costs, but from what trolls have posted here at FDL, I *assume* that those are the rightwing talking points to provide Obama “cover” for what’s being done in YOUR & MY names.
We would all do better to look to a future without this executive.
I’m “looking forward” to 2012 elections. Possibly a renewed electorate (labor), tired of GOP grandstanding and Democratic (Obama LLC) cave-ins, anti-employee agenda and non-governance, will dump non performing politicos.
Obama is style over substance. Obama is perpetuating Abu Ghraib, but is just make stylist changes by saying the treatment he’s giving is for the prisoner’s own protection. In a not unsurprising note Barak Obama Elemetary is shutting down (not that Obama is directly to blame, but the whole mentality that he perpetuates is):
At the time that the school acquired its new name, administrators took a lot of flak for ostensibly focusing on the name change instead of the plight of its students. http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theticket/20110318/ts_yblog_theticket/barack-h-obama-elementary-to-close
Obama by the way got rid of secret CIA prisons by just renaming them “Intelligence Gathering Centers” – all style, while perpetuating and making worse the Bush substance.
The Executive Branch is out of control. It operates in a bonapartist fashion. The complaints of large newspapers or political bloggers mean nothing to it anymore, and that’s quite frightening.
Stephen Harper? Is that you?
Yes.
Reasoned considerations are also of no interest to Augustus, Jeff, for he anticipates elevation to deity status … any day now. Why, rumor has it that Obama is saying that he has done the “change” which he promised to do … which he claims may be truly believed “in”.
The ruling classes have been behaving badly for a very long time.
History is the record of that behavior.
Even the “Official History”, which claims pride in, destitution, death and destruction.
DW
This action is being done by Obama, not Boehner. What Boehner is doing isn’t necessarily good for the economy and is bad – but basically legal – policy, but what Obama is doing is unconstitutional.
To the degree that he promised hope and change, Obama has already lost. He’s Bush with better rhetoric. Obama’s a total failure. We the people made a big mistake… again.
As far as the Republican field of candidates and who will replace him as president, progressives need to remember that Republicans don’t choose their nominees the way Democrats do. None of the candidates currently dominating discussion will be the nominee.
Bradley Manning epitomizes the breakdown of our society. We are a nation that likes to think we have limits to the power of our government. We are finding out that the government actually just does whatever the hell its corporate masters tell it to do and anyone who tries to uncover the truth about this perverted relationship is crushed, buried, or maligned. If you don’t think identifying with a martyr is a powerful mechanism for change, then for christ’s sake (so to speak) read some history.
President Hopeless <8-(
Can you provide a link to that trial transcript where he was found guilty ?
I know little about Canada but here in the United States Of America we are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Just because a make believe Constitutional Law lecturer says it’s all good, doesn’t make it so or legal.
I expect this shit from a unitary executive dictator, not our Constitutional President.
Sad to see that fascist wingnut morons exist in Canada, too.
IMHO it would be best if Obama loses in 2012. Let the Republican wackos win and the people will storm the gates demanding a real progressive alternative. Enough with sellout Dems.
“Do you honestly think Bradley Manning is the most fucked up thing in your country right now?”
I think his treatment is the most visible and easy to grasp example of a whole lot thats fucked up in this country right now.
yes, what you said.
Plus, this is a BFD because Bush/cheney set the precedent on the wrongheaded logic that detainees in Gitmo “don’t deserve” the protections of US Citizens, ie habeaus corpus, etc etc.
Obama has made it clear that now not even US citizens deserve the legal protections accorded to US citizens via the US constitution he perportedly studied during his years at Harvard. Perhaps his studies deserve birther rumor status as well.
so much for justice for all.
ETA: I must add that it was/still is very bad when we subject any human being as though there are no rules. I do NOT agree that the Gitmo detainees do not deserve legal protections or whatever crap Shooter says. If we believe as a people that an individual in our country deserves a particular system of justice, we believe and hold that for all people. If that’s what we believe, there are no exceptions. Indeed, Charlie Manson and Ted Bundy had trials. They are stripped of certain rights after the trial not before.
Yeah, this is a BFD.
He’s already a loser.
That’s twice today that I read “unitary” as “urinary”. Must be all those ED drug commercials…
Prove it!
You raise an interesting question, and it deserves a serious response.
“Is what’s happening to Bradley Manning the most-fucked up thing in our country?” (the question I’m sure you meant to ask, rather than say “Is he the most fucked-up thing in our country?”)
At a time when we are engaged in two well-known wars, one illegal and the other stupid, at a time of economic crisis, galloping economic concentration, destruction of the middle class, a fascist shift, deteriorating infrastructure, global climate change and denial or indifference thereto by the governing class (as well as other problems), is what’s happening to Bradley Manning the most fucked-up thing in our country?
Yes.
What’s happening to Bradley Manning is on a par with any of these things.
Bradley Manning is being tortured. Torture is a war crime. To me, it is on a moral par with illegal wars of aggression, which I believe Justice Robert Jackson said was the ultimate war crime.
If you believe someone has committed a crime, under our system it is appropriate that he or she be apprehended and tried as expeditiously as possible.
While I won’t pretend this always happens, it is wrong when it doesn’t.
Bradley Manning has been held in conditions that amount to solitary confinement for about seven months. He has been subject to forced nudity. It is well-known that prolonged captivity under these conditions of sensory deprivation can lead to madness. This is psychological torture. It is not water-boarding or the rack. He has not been beaten or electrocuted. But he is being tortured. Torture is the most disgusting thing you can do to a prisoner, and is more closely associated with fascist governments than with the Constitutional democracy we have long assumed ourselves to be.
On top of this, Manning has been convicted of — nothing.
He has been charged with a boatload of crimes, but convicted of nothing. Even if he is tried fairly and convicted of what he is accused of, our government still doesn’t have the right to torture him.
Finally, while he may have violated a trust that was placed in him by the military, to many of us, he is not a criminal at all, but a hero. A whistleblower. A man who has provided us with the information we need to make intelligent decisions about how we are governed. He may also have played a role in providing people in North Africa and the Middle East with the information that has sparked their mass democratic uprising. To torture this man is unconscionable, illegal, immoral, and stupid, although I believe the last man who said this was fired from the U.S. government.
So the answer to your re-phrased question is “Yes, what’s happening to Bradley Manning is the most fucked-up thing in the country today.”
Thanks for asking, and I apologize to my fellow Firepups for rambling on so long.
I wish. The problem is that after 4/8 years of GOP nutsville, any one looks progressive in comparison. that IS how Obama won in the first place.
I want him primaried.
Yep. Let’s have that speedy trial.
Why do you allow trolls to dominate threads? CM posted one comment and there have been 6 responses, some lengthy, only one that was clever.
I would like to know how big the injustice needs to be in order to provoke CouchMaster to action. Canadians arent to fond of political action, they still have the Queen on their money and they won’t let the NHL take fighting out of hockey.
I also want him primaried but the Dems are so week the only one that might consider it is Kuccinich and everyone knows what the corporate media will do to him. Another alternative is Peter DeFazio of Oregon, a real progressive.
Gregg Levine has his weekly video blog up: The Party Line – March 18, 2011
After the union busting, I don’t see a Republican upsetting Obama. Plus it needs to be pointed out again and again, Walker of WI and Snyder of MI were both the LEAST right-wing of the candidates and that is what got them elected – just like all the hope/change got Obama elected.
No, what’s happening to PFC Manning isn’t the most fucked up thing in our country right now; it’s merely a symptom of it.
The most fucked up thing going on in our country right now is that TPTB are quite convinced that they are above the law and that they are able to designate people or classes of people that are below it. This has led to a series of actions that have, one by one, made the US unrecognizable over the last half-century, or so.
So no, punishing Bradley Manning before trying him isn’t the most fucked up thing going on in our country right now, it’s just one more in a long chain. But it’s one where we’re trying to yell STOP!!! again. Who knows, it might work, I mean a guy can dream can’t he?
What we have here is a white Republican who managed to convince the country he was a black Democrat. While I think that deserves a round of applause, I don’t think it deserves a second term.
I know — The Rick Perry-David Petraeus ticket is waiting in the wings — I’ll still be sitting on my hands in ’12.
I make a distinction between trollery and disagreement. If we think that anyone who disagrees with us is a troll, we’re just as bad as the wingnuts of the right.
What about Barbara Lee? Has anyone asked her?
Nope, it’s because you’re subconscious has reached the point where it’s trying to tell you that you’re getting pissed on.
You don’t think Feingold would consider it? What has he got to lose?
Seven now :-)?
operor non nutritor everto
Hey eCahn. I used it as a teachable moment. I do not kid myself that I might change any entrenched minds. But sometimes I write a comment to point out to others who may be lurking and wondering just why this matters so much. There are as many US citizens as Canadian who do not know what is really in the US Constitution. We need to educate and empower the lurkers.
Hey, you took the name right out of my brain! why not Feingold!?
Thank you for a very reasoned and detailed explanation. Whether CM is a troll or not is possibly up for debate. However, a reasoned and thorough explanation can never go astray. Many lurk and read here, and some who do have not had the benefit of reading past posts about the unfair torture and mistreatment of Private Manning.
I wouldn’t mind a Feingold/Warren ticket.
I agree, as I just indicated at 40. Thank you, too. I think it’s reasonable to *explain* how the US system of “justice” is supposed to work. Not everyone who swings by here has read prior posts about this dreadful torture of Private Manning.
There are so many things fucked up in this country right now, it’s hard to prioritize. The reason we are up in arms about Manning’s situation is that it defies our laws, such as assumption of innocence until proven guilty, habeas corpus, cruel and unusual punishment. These are fundamental rights that our government is choosing to ignore as it pleases them. A step in a very wrong direction. Maybe he did something illegal, maybe not. Nothing has been proven in a court of law. First Bush, now Obama, are Presidents who are behaving like despots, ignoring our fundamental laws, doing as they please, trampling the rights of others. And see many people seem to think oh it’s OK, it’s not me, but you know what, tomorrow it might well be you. Well not you specifically, you live in a sane country.
It’s a darn shame that there are as many US citizens as Canadian that don’t know the protections they have under the US constitution. There are only “beliefs” about what it contains. Like the bible.
Please read the post and click through the links. The president’s conduct in approving the treatment of Mr. Manning is illegal. The treatment is illegal. Arguably, this treatment would be illegal even after conviction.
The treatment isn’t necessary to protect Mr. Manning. That is as Orwellian a statement as this administration has come up with, and it’s come with nearly as many as its predecessor. Isolation and abuse foster suicide and self-harm; they do not prevent it.
Mr. Manning is no threat to himself – unless this treatment continues. He is not a threat to others – except to a political establishment and White House that is as fearful as its predecessor that if its actions become public, there will be political and financial costs to pay because of them.
If Mr. Manning did what the government alleges, and it has not produced or proven its case, he engaged in classic civil disobedience. He knew he might pay a terrible price for that. He did it anyway because of his concerns that failing to do it would be a greater crime. “All that’s necessary for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing.” That’s a textbook example of Eagle Scout ethics, the kind the military and the president claim to value with their codes of honor and constitutional law pedigrees.
Mr. Manning could not reasonably expect, however, to be consigned to a Soviet gulag, imprisoned as if he were already mentally defective, in order to keep him quiet, to intimidate other would be whistleblowers and the public at large, to discredit his actions and to cast doubt on the truth of what he revealed. Americans should not accept such naked aggression under the Orwellian banner that it will make us more secure or set us free.
Hmmm. I like Warren. It might help the ticket. but I also don’t want to take her off the job she’s doing. I have to weigh slotting her in the VP post vs appointing her to a more powerful watchdog post.
That’s not a reply to a troll. It’s a reply to an administration that knows it’s doing the wrong thing in order to protect itself from the consequences of its excesses. It’s doubling down on Mr. Manning in true Cheneyite fashion. The record shows that works, unless enough voices are raised loudly enough in protest.
Yes, Warren for sure. If the Democratic party was still the Democratic party they would be pushing someone like her and dumping Obama, but really what we need is a third party. Only 20% of the voters are Republicans and maybe 21% Democrats. Most people don’t want either party, because after all they are the same, corporate controlled, fascist oriented, imperialist America sold out traitors to the American people. But hang in there, soon our economy will collapse completely as the rest of the world moves to dump the dollar and then we will see some truly interesting events. Nothing gets us up off our couches faster than suddenly finding we have no living, no home and can’t afford to drive or buy groceries. And no rights as well. Look for a desperate Obama regime to clamp down on what remains of our ‘rights’ and assets. We must dump these corporate politicians in 2012. We can do it. Look at California, where Meg Whitman lost to our favorite kook, Jerry Brown, after spending millions. It didn’t do her any good because too many of us were on to her program. Same with Carly Fiorina.
Precisely.
DW
Agree x2!! The more pressure that can be applied, the better.
Free Bradley Manning!!
You said it well. Quite agree. Not sure how well Brown’s going to do in CA, but in the case of the last CA Gov election, I simply had to pull the lever for Brown. In that case, Brown was “better” – albeit not by much – than corporate rip-off, prison-industry expansionist, insider-trader E-Meg Whitman, who’da made WI Gov Scott Walker look like a left-wing extremist (seriously).
Well said! We really do need to keep repeating “traitors” because that is exactly what so many elected officials are, right along with the Koch brothers, Scalia & Thomas, etc, etc. We still have laws against propaganda, why hasn’t anyone sued that traitor organization Fox News yet? Traitor, traitor, traitor. Keep saying it, keep tying it to every Repub and Dem who should wear the mantle.
Brown was a great election but then we have, as I mentioned above, the ruse of moderate Republican that we fell for in MI and WI. We had the Obama ruse and now the governors ruse. I hope this is not something we fall for again. (Like Whitman, Snyder in MI used his own money to run. I wonder if this will be a trend.)
Please vote Green in 2012 instead of sitting on your hands.
That will send a clearer message.
Same here… I’d rather lose!
heh. the most succinct political commentary today. yep.
Yes. a very easy vote.
It should be a crime to badly impersonate a Canadian (they’ve got a stronger dollar, better medicine, etc). I knew s/he wasn’t Canadian when s/he wrote “dude”, “slammer”, “crappy”, etc. What a moroni — Candadians don’t talk like that.
BTW, what’s left of the San Francisco Chronicle last week also had an editorial opposed to the treatment of Mr Manning.
Get it into your head already: Obama is having Manning tortured because he fully believes in the Bush-Cheney doctrine of torture as an acceptable means of treating uncharged, un-convicted prisoners. He is never going to stop this policy. We have to remove him through impeachment or by ensuring his defeat in next year’s election.
Amen. We throw the epithet “troll” around FAR too frequently here. There are some trolls who show up from time to time, but calling someone with a different view a “troll” for even asking a question is irresponsible.
eCAHN, I’m looking at you….this time, not always of course. But we have to draw a line about this habit we’ve fallen into.
I don’t think you know that. Canada is a big country and a LOT of it borders the U.S.
I think it’s admirable that everyone is treated with respect here. You are correct there are lurkers that are not as advanced as most of the posters here myself being one of them. I am trying to learn and be informed thanks for your comment it is appreciated.
It would certainly be the most fucked up, if I was Bradley Manning. Let’s face it, if we don’t start all conversations about the wars and our treatment of prisoners with “Prosecute the war criminals” then we give them a pass. I have sent my Sentors and congressman letters but I live in SC so I know how that is going to end. Everyone who believes they are war criminals should take timt to send real snail-mail letter to thier elected officials. Real envelopes have a magic effect.
Absolutely. But guess what? the GOP is motivated to impeach BHO on BS not on the real egregious lawbreaking that they themselves do. And the Dems aren’t going to impeach one of their own…quite the self-canceling conundrum…
yw. :) I should revise my statement though. There ARE lurkers who are way better informed than I am, many, in addition to others who read to become more informed!
When you don’t know what you’re talking about, please refrain from posting so the rest of us Canadians don’t look like idiots too.
I wouldn’t bet on a bullshit excuse to impeach; I’m guessing that if they can’t rig the 2012 election in their favor, they’ll bring up Tony Rezko — that scandal, like Clinton’s Whitewater deal, will probably be the rationalization. And unlike Clinton, Obama is stupid enough to have actually done something that would secure a conviction.
Except there is no evidence yet that Manning did anything illegal. Charges that he divulged classified information are based on highly dubious accusations from a glory hound of a right-wing blogger.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/06/18/wikileaks
From the start of this, Adrian Lamo’s accounts have been contradictory and misleading, and should be considered suspect. And even presuming that Manning did do something illegal — which is debatable — torture is against the law, no question.
You’re right, Obama is just a slicker, more articulate, more devious version of Bush and Cheney. I just hope the American people wake up in time and put paid to this fraud.
If Bradley Manning were tried by a fair jury with competent counsel, the jury would nullify the charges and vote to acquit once they saw how he exposed the crimes and deceptions of our government. However, he’ll be tried in a military court, where the dirty laundry he aired will be safely locked away, almost certainly convicted, and given a harsh sentence. His best hope is for the American people to awaken from their intellectual stupor (in large part as a result of his courageous actions) and elect a decent president who would pardon him.
I would also encourage folks to send letters to European Justice systems asking that charges be brought. Once again, get everyone to keep saying that criminal acts do not go unnoticed. We need to vote 3rd party even if we lose, so the 3rd party candidate can say these things.
No I don’t think Manning is the most F’d up thing in the American Oligarchy right now.
You can start with GE, Exxon and Bank of America who pay no taxes, pitch in the President (a paid off Wall Street lobbyist), the Tea Party who gives cuts of $400 Billion a year to billionaires while wanting to cut the only thing that does not contribute to the National Debt (Social Security, who’s recipients haven’t had a COLA in 2 years), and throw in those on corporate welfare, like Halliburton, who are as corrupt as the day long.
What you don’t seem to get is it is Bradley Manning who is the only one paying for it!
I am sick of politicians using the “Top Secret” stamp to just hide things from Americans. Personally, he should get a medal if he did it, but as usual, it is the privates who go to jail, not those who really are guilty.