You don’t understand Jane. Ollie was a hero. He sold those weapons to terrorists because he was told to do so. A good soldier does what he’s told – do or die not question why, and all that.

Bradley thinks too much. Thinking is dangerous for those without the proper authority. He needs to either have his head reprogrammed, or just be properly disposed of. So say I, and let me please introduce myself, I’m a man of wealth and taste.

Jane,

Good on you for going along on this trip. Small tech problem -

Whenever I try to forward petition to friends through the action page I get an error message telling my to use my browser’s back button and try again.

Agree completely with what you said. I can too well remember my rightwing fundie family exhorting me about what a “great American patriot” Ollie North was. Falls under ye olde rubric: IOKIYAR!!11!!

Loved your last sentence: indeed.

Manning assisted in pulling back the curtain, revealing the elites at play. Mustn’t do that or there’s heavy dues to pay.

thanks, Jane, for the post and for visiting and for links to petitions. Very important.

Good on you, Jane, and Thank You!

The 80s are sooo over.

Besides, I’m sure if Ollie were ‘detained’ today, the conditions would just as severe as Manning’s. /s

So say I, and let me please introduce myself, I’m a man of wealth and taste.

This what ya mean???

Thanks Jane!

Thanks, Jane; will sign soon. But I gotta tell you, I write in Ollie’s name for Prez every time I vote. They don’t make Patriots like Him any more; just a goddam shame…

Hammer.

Nail.

Bang. :o)

Jane

Being the ant at the picnic seems my lot in life. Is there a plan B? Do you really expect the commandant to receive your petition, say OMG you’re right, I will correct this immediately? It’s more likely you won’t get in to see him. Hope I’m wrong.

Jane, already done!

Is there someway you can remind them that they swore to uphold and protect us and our Constitution? They are to recognize the enemy within as well, and also that every person that has signed that petition also pays them?

Silly person. North is the exact opposite of Manning. They were trying to get North to not rat. With North, to rat or not to rat was not a question.

totally

BTW, Thanks Jane for all you do.

Another significant difference between North and Manning is the fact that North was an officer while Manning is enlisted. The military have always treated an accused officer as presumptively innocent and enlisted as presumptively guilty. That’s systemic, regardless of specific circumstances. Yeah, it blows but that’s also part of what’s going on here.

Was in some of the sets we played back when…
And yes Jane keep up the great work. We need your voice!

I know you mean well, and I know what I’m about to say won’t be popular, but I’m going to say it anyway. I will not be signing the petition because I don’t believe it will make one bit of difference. The number of signatures also doesn’t matter. You could get one million and Bradley Manning’s fate will remain the same. If we solicited petitions for all the grievances we gripe about daily, we would be doing nothing more than signing petitions that are irrelevant anyway.

Otherwise, I agree with what you say about the double standard, and firmly speak against detention of individuals without due process and abusive treatment of any prisoners, not just individuals detained without being charged with anything.

Signed the first time around.

Good on you, Jane.

Where does Manning’s family fit into all this. Do we know if they’re visiting? I can’t imagine them not being in contact through the mail.

Thanks for the insight re officer v. enlisted. Good point, but still… Ollie would’ve been treated the way he was regardless bc running guns for Reagan was so “righteous & patriotic.” Or, at least, that’s what my conservatarded family told me at the time…

Considering the disparate treatment of Manning and the last thirty years, I have to lean more to this one:

Don’t mind the maggots

Sargent North wouldn’t have been running guns for Reagan, except as physical labor. Colonel North on the other hand was the organizer and expediter.

Combination of the two. The Army was supportive of North’s actions so he was gonna get VIP treatment regardless. Officers are usually confined to their living quarters or restricted to the base if awaiting court-martial. Enlisteds go to the brig.

So the petition will do no good. I can agree with you on that. It probably won’t change much, if anything. But it is a means to express our opinion on the matter directly to those involved.

What does NOT signing it accomplish?

First time I’ve ever heard of David MacMichael. He sounds like a genuine mensch.

Precisely and the higher up the officer, the less restriction s/he will face….for any accusation.
Edit: None of this makes what Jane is saying invalid but it is very relevant when discussing Officer vs Enlisted treatment.

If nothing else it shows the PTB that people are watching and many of them took the time to voice their displeasure.

With demonstrations it’s said that for every person who shows up there are 10 who agree with him/her that didn’t. Same can be said for things like petitions.

Go David! Go Jane!

Please convey to Private Manning that some Americans regard him as a heroic American, along the lines of Hugh Thompson (the Huey pilot who stopped My Lai from being much worse).

My point though is this is not just one isolated event for which petitions are solicited. Considering all the grievances that equally deserve our expressions of opinion, the number of petitions would mount precipitously and we would be spending an inordinate amount of time petition organizing and signing rather than possibly fomenting a more effective game plan for conquering this Beast of a system. I’m not saying we shouldn’t salve the wounds as we go along, but if our mission becomes just salving the wounds, then we will never prevent the complete bleed out to come because we aren’t focusing, and acting upon, the cause of the bleed out.

Thanks, Jane. When do they have to respond to Manning’s lawyer’s speedy trial petition? Ever?

If you’d rather not sign the petition then by all means don’t. But you haven’t been around very long if you think that all we do is pound outrage onto our keyboards and sign petitions around here.

Prevailing in the small struggles leads to prevailing in the larger ones.

I don’t think they care, but even if they did, the same could be said about your comments here. You are expressing your opinion about the unfair treatment of Bradley Manning. With the petition, they will either throw it in the ashcan, or put the names on it on a watch list, if they aren’t already on that list. Most likely they’ll do both, and the politicians will stay under the covers with the Plutocratic Lobbyists and Foreign Dignitaries.

When are the people going to wake and realize that there is indeed a class war in America and we’re losing.

I respectfully second Mr.Teller’s request and sentiments!

No, I haven’t been around HERE very long, but I have been OUT THERE, and if you’re doing something more than what you say, I’m not seeing the results. It’s going in the opposite direction. Isn’t it time to rethink the strategy?

I don’t not struggle because it might not lead anywhere. On a list? I’d be upset if I wasn’t on at least a dozen or so.

What does losing small struggles lead to?

I’m just suggesting that maybe you don’t know everything there is to know about everything. I know that may be a blow to your ego but there it is. Why come around here and whine about what we’re doing if it doesn’t suit you? There must be hundreds if not thousands of sites more to your liking.

~~~mod note – disagree without being disagreeable~~~

It’s somewhat easy to figure out the difference here.

Whenever anything happens where there’s a violation involving military personnel, it’s always the folks at the bottom of the totem pole

A little research will show you the pattern.

No one here is suggesting our mission is to “just salve the wounds”.

If you have any helpful suggestions I’m sure everyone here would be open to hearing them. Nobody is insulting your ideas. You just haven’t presented any.

Jane and the rest of the team here successfully pushed for the Fed Audit last year. And student loan reform. Those are two very tangible victories that the group at Firedoglake can claim. We don’t just sign petitions. We lobby, we protest, we make phone calls, we VOTE, we write, and we educate. Get on board :)

Hear! Hear! One of my hobbies used to be making my FBI file as fat as I possibly could without getting arrested. All the fun went out of that when they went digital but that doesn’t mean I’ve slowed down agitating. Looking for full time employment full time is what accomplished that.

I don’t not struggle because it might not lead anywhere.

A petition is not a struggle, though. It’s well-intentioned, but it’s not a struggle when the apparent other side side of the struggle doesn’t even acknowledge it exists.

Shorter Morocco Bama:
“It will never work…..You’re wasting your time….Stop pissing in the wind and listen to me….”

Depends upon your definition of struggle and in what context.

Well, I know you’d like to drag this out for the rest of the afternoon to blow the thread but I’m gone.

Back to work.

Namaste

When gas hits $5.50 a gallon and people realize 80% of that value is wasted? Economic value which could be spent for food, education, cloths, medicine. Economic value wasted, as you continue to pay more for energy and waste even more value, out your tailpipe? Then spend $3.6 billion a month in Iraq, so Exxon Mobile et als can sell US gas, at $5.50 a gallon?

Slaves where exploited for energy. Now energy exploits US! It’s hard to wake up an addicted, afflicted, nation, lacking a memory. No amount of “slave” can stop a “puncture wound” from bleeding out!

Uh-oh… Jumbo Christie just jumped the shark with his base.

Let’s take the Fed Audit Bill as an example. It can hardly be called a success. It’s a watered-down version of what Ron Paul submitted and Bernie Sanders sold the damn thing out. You have to be able to call a spade a spade if you want to tackle this Beast of a system head on. Petitioning the Beast with letters and phone calls may result in a few minor pseudo victories, but the Beast marches on stronger than ever. Sure, it might make you feel better to think you are doing everything you can, but it doesn’t mean you are doing everything that can be done, or that your methods are effective when looking at the big picture. Once again, I know you’re well-intentioned and your hearts are in the right place, but that doesn’t make what you’re doing any more effective.

Hmm…good point. This thread is too important to allow to be hijacked. Thanks Jane for all you do, not only for us but for the country at large and especially Pvt Manning.
I’ll not provide a further reaction point that could possibly be used to derail this thread. Back to the job search.

As a troll in good standing, I take issue with your telling Mr. Bama to get lost. Let me suggest, as I have before, that we devote a section of this site to discuss what we can do to change things. I don’t mean a post with comments that disappears into the ether. I mean a permanent page devoted to that subject and permanent pages for other subjects like what, if anything, we can do to help Manning other than an online petition. In an email to Manning’s military lawyer, I suggested he open source the defense, make a page for lawyers or anyone to contribute ideas to the defense. Never heard back.

As for Manning’s detention, I’m not an authority on the Military Justice act but I understand it eliminates habeus corpus. Has this ever been constitutionally tested? I cannot believe Article 3 judges will allow the military to go on its merry way without any oversight.

Not at all. More like stop, look, listen, come together and create a think tank who’s mission is to inculcate a strategy to tear this Beast down and replace it with a system that allows mankind to evolve.

Thanks for pigeonholing me though, and erecting a strawman out of what you believe my intentions to be. Very telling about your character to attack the personage of anyone who disagrees with you, especially when they are potential allies.

I’ll back out now since I seem to have ruffled some feathers and continue my search for……..I really don’t know anymore…

I’ll ask you again for suggestions. You seem great at telling us what we’re doing wrong. How about telling us what you do right?

“The New York Times recently reported that these techniques are being used to induce Manning to flip on Julian Assange and Wikileaks.”

Believe it.

Well, I’m actually afraid to sign because I DON’T want to be on a list, and I’m very afraid that all signatories will end up in a gov’t database. This isn’t paranoia, it is real fear.

Not to worry, if they throw you in the clink, a petition can always be drawn up for your release. Feel better now?

And, how can Manning “flip” on Assange? If Wikileaks is following its protocols there can’t have been any contact with a leaker and anyone at Wikileaks. Anonymity is what makes wikileaks Wikileaks.

NO.

What other legal means do you suggest to assist Bradley Manning?

Assange also didnt break any laws…

Of course, “legal” is the operative word there. Considering that operative word, I would say prayer would be equally effective, but since I’m a strong agnostic, I can’t participate in that one either without being hypocritical.

First they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

Not breaking laws won’t keep Assange from being extradited and tried and bled dry with legal fees and years of litigation. The gov’t can do (and does) what it wants–law be damned–invoke State Secrets or whatever. The gov’t always gets its way, at least since 9-11.

Again, I’ll ask you for actionable ideas, as you’re simply demeaning our attempt here. What alterative do you suggest?

I feel like Lawrence O’Donnell, which makes me sick

An excerpt from the U.S. Armed Forces enlistment contract:

DD FORM 4/3, OCT 2007
H. CONFIRMATION OF ENLISTMENT OR REENLISTMENT
22a. IN A REGULAR COMPONENT OF THE ARMED FORCES:
I, __________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
b. SIGNATURE OF ENLISTEE/REENLISTEE c. DATE SIGNED (YYYYMMDD)

Many thanks to Jane Hamsher, David House, the other persons who visit Pfc. Bradley Manning and to the members of his support team. I hope all of you take good care of yourselves and stay vigorous in your efforts on behalf of Pfc. Manning for the duration.

I came back to this post for a looksee. I just read where you are suggesting a think tank. I also feel we should create one but I have no idea how to and don’t have the financial backing.

What are your thoughts on getting to that point and what we can do to actually make a difference? I’ve suggested we create a think tank, a PAC, etc., here before. Help us out with your suggestions.

x3

Jane, great contrast with Ollie.

I also like comparing Private Manning with Captain Hugh Thompson (RIP).

That’s exactly why I DID sign. The Nazis came to power because they intimidated decent people. Fuck them. A 19 year old girl named Sophie Scholl exposed her government’s lies and got her head chopped off for it sixty five years ago. Last year somebody, could be this kid, did the right thing too, and now instead of taking off Bradley’s head, they’re reconfiguring it. They’re standing there right in your face and telling you they have the authority to apply sensory deprivation, control dependency, and forced drug administration to someone who hasn’t even been convicted of anything! Right in your face. They’re telling you what they can do and are waiting for your complacency to buttress their power grab. Are you as brave as a female 19 year old university student in the face of a hateful, spitting, nazi kangaroo tribunal? She knew the risk, but she did it anyway. If you’re already that afraid, we’re at the same stage in the process.

People made the same arguments about slavery.

How much do you donate to FDL each month?

I kick in $20/month. Someone as concerned about their personal safety as you, ought to be able to do significantly better.

And they have access to databases that the nazis could only dream about.

I don’t think you can speak to Bradley Manning’s state of mind, and what will be meaningful to him or not.

David House, on the other hand, has told me that this show of support is extremely meaningful to Bradley Manning. What is the source of your unique insight?

Well said. *applauding*

Ha. They already know everything there is to know about you. You even have RIFD chips in your underwear, in your cereal boxes, and everything you do is watched. Might as well sign the petition.

Better point that I’ve made all thread. Thanks Jane.

If for no other reason, the petition should be signed because it’s meaningful to Bradley Manning.

Wow, you really are psychic. Please, do tell us how you know so much about what Manning, his lawyer and his friends think will be helpful in the situation. Clearly you know more than the people who are actually involved.

Did they tell you that coming in here and being a cynical know-it-all would be a good thing? Or are you just so much smarter than anybody else that you could tell without even bothering to ask?

I’ll take that as a “no,” you are a damn freeloader, reading and posting without contributing anything. Do you think this place runs on air?

Citzenship comes with responsibilities.

You’re a cheapskate AND a chickensh*t.

Did you miss the American Revolution? Do you think the British just handed it to us?

Your sorry-a$$ would fit in well at Red State.

Hi Jane!!

waving.

The Nuremberg Tribunals focused on the leaders. The heads of the military, political and business interests were prosecuted and punished.

Right! And that Government sniffer/hacker Lamo is walking free!

Jane

You’re mixing apples and oranges. I am sure Manning’s spirits will be lifted. That’s important and worth the effort. I think Mr. Bama (and myself) believe the purpose of the petition was to change the conditions of his detention. I don’t think the petition will do that.

reddog said,
“Well, I’m actually afraid to sign because I DON’T want to be on a list, and I’m very afraid that all signatories will end up in a gov’t database. This isn’t paranoia, it is real fear.

reddog, just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t after you… Hmmm

I made the decision to let David House stay with me, repeatedly, and drive him down to Quantico knowing that the consequence would be inviting this kind of thing into my life.

Sometimes you have to say that intimidation tactics only work if you let them, and it’s important not to let them right now. It’s more important for me to stand up to Gitmo tactics, and their importation on to US soil, than it is to stay “safe” in the situation (if such a thing is even possible).

When Manning gets a visit from David, he hears what is being done for him, and by whom. That lets him know that he is not alone, even in solitary confinement. That means the world to him and more than makes it worth it for me.

The heads of the military, political and business interests were prosecuted and punished.

Because they were all criminally complicit. We don’t have any corporations like that around, do we?

Great catch!

Sophie Scholl

Bail or some equivalent of a writ of habeas corpus is optional pursuant to the UCMJ. The Commander of QMCB makes the decision after a review of the facts of each case.

Arphid chips are the least of anybody’s worries because they are very limited in range and somewhat useless for actually tracking anything because a sheet of foil will block xmissns. What is known about you (your life, your debts, your interests, your purchases, arrests, etc.) is in a database, somewhere. The problem starts when these databases are cross-referenced, and since 9-11, the DHS has done a pretty good job of doing that. Problem is, they still can’t tell the difference between John Smith, who has ties to a Somali immigrant in Minnesota who has a cousin that has ties to Al Qaida, and John Smith who is 9 years old and lives in FL. But the point is, they do have John Smith in MN linked to the Somali cousin that knows someone in Al Qaida, so when John Smith flies somewhere he is always selected for “extra scrutiny”.

This is how it works and one you’re in the system you are there forever. Eventually the database may be refined enough to know the difference between the two John Smiths but it still might not make any difference to them.

My point isn’t about Bradley Manning, and you know it.

Do you mean if the commandant doesn’t permit habeus, the courts go along? I would think Manning’s detention conditions are so severe as to be unconstitutional cruel and unusual punishment. Saying something is unconstitutional reminds me of those most famous of famous last words “You can’t do this to me”.

Pfc. Manning can be *persuaded* (with the help of long-term solitary confinement, minimal exercise, subtle sleep-deprivation and anti-depressant medications) to implicate and incriminate Julian Assange. For exmaple, Pfc. Manning could do this by testifying (1) that Julian Assange in advance explained to him how precisely to best access, encrypt, compress and download the data from the SIPRnet classified system across the air-gap to commercial portable media, and (2) that he and Assange had direct communications before, during and after the downloading and unauthorized distribution of such classified data. Such testimony would make Pfc. Manning and Julain Assange co-conspirators to commit espionage, pursuant to the overly broad U.S. Espionage Act of 1917.

What’s Jane is saying is her point is. In the face of the possible futility of this petition, at least it will help Bradley Manning feel better.

You’ve yet to answer my about any possible ideas or solutions. Actionable suggestions. I’m lurking here just waiting for you. I’m practically salivating. You’ve got me sooo excited about new and interesting ways to free Bradley Manning and change our government.

Seven-years of college….. wasted.

Why not? You talk about “the monster” and then act like a martyr isn’t a good way to fight one. Correction – it’s one of the best ways, or at least it has been for the last 2 or 3 thousand years. I’d rather Bradley not be one, but he is. Furthermore, we don’t need a think tank to foster the meme that government lies, secrecy, torture and subservience to militarism is bad for everybody, most thinking people already realize that. We just need to speak louder and not give in to fear.

Start a thread here at firedoglake to be the initial depository of shared thoughts and ideas. From those shared thoughts and ideas, begin to develop a structure of a society that allows mankind to evolve. Create a new “Constitution” encompassing this new society. Develop methods and/or strategies for confronting and ultimately dismantling the old order of things, to be replaced by the new structure and constitution.

I would start by saying whatever is developed it should be minimally authoritarian, if at all. It should be highly decentralized and localized in order to maximize a diversity of approaches, practices and ideas. It should always be flexible, adaptive and improvisational when practical. It should balance individual expression with what’s good for the commonwealth of the universe in which we reside and rely upon.

That’s a start.

What bothers me about Bradley is that he took this jump probably thinking folks like you could get his back….and you can’t. You don’t have the capacity. Not yet. But you could, eventually, if you have the proper focus and don’t beat the hell out of anyone who comes along who suggests there may be other ways if we just stop, look, listen, challenge our core beliefs, share and collaborate. It won’t happen overnight, and you may be gray, if not already, before you see any tangible progress, but if you’re going to take this Beast down, you have to think big, really BIG. Asking it pretty please won’t get it done.

You Garden of Eden types are all the same. There never was time when it wasn’t a struggle. Human evil did not just spring fully grown, it’s always been around.

Can you make some more thinly veiled calls for a different “strategy?”

LMAO.

You wanna a different strategy, contribute more to FDL.

BTW, how much do you contribute a month? How really committed are you?

A very disingenuous and arrogant comment. That’s positive. Do as I say, not as I do I suppose is the approach. I haven’t been this way with you, or anyone else on this thread with the exception of the comment to reddog. I’ve been respectful to a fault. You could at least pretend to reciprocate.

Showing the government a list of names of people who are not afraid to speak up for the Constitution, the Writ of Habeas Corpus and the rule of law is not asking “pretty please.” It is saying “we are not afraid of you.” Which is EXACTLY what it takes to stop it.

…..to develop a structure of a society that allows mankind to evolve……

Can women evolve too, or is it just a male thing?

Humanity will evolve whether we like it or not.

Do you understand what Posse Comitatus is? Do you understand what is meant by the “Separation of Powers?”

You need to read a lot more and post a lot less.

There are reportedly established criteria such as flight risk, national security risk, risk of repeat crimes, et cetera, that are allegedly considered in arriving at a decision on whether or not to permit some time of restricted bail in each particular case. The discretion of the QMCB Commander appears to be broad in this matter.

BTW, how much do you contribute a month? How really committed are you?

Not sure. Look at my profile and count my posts if you want to know. I have to go vacuum and mop the floors before the wife gets home, or else I’ll catch hell.

Can women evolve too, or is it just a male thing?

How pathetic. Even Evelyn would take exception with that comment, wouldn’t you Evelyn?

Mod Note: Let’s everyone dial back the rhetoric a couple of degrees

Her point was right on target.

Sometimes actions are ethically right at the same time that they are extremely unpopular.

Voting against the mis-named Patriot Act after 9/11 was an example. Only one member of the U.S. Senate had that courage and he just got voted out of office by a guy who married the daughter of a billionaire.

Shorter Morocco Bama: “Imagine” by John Lennon.

Good lord. Have you managed to hijack this thread entirely? Hey, here’s an idea: since you don’t like this one, start your own fucking blog.

You’ve been incredibly disrespectful in refusing to acknowledge my request for these alternative courses of action you intimated that you have. I’ve asked you no less than 5 times for specific suggestions. I started off very nurturing of the idea in saying that people here are always open to new ideas and I’m sure they would be appreciated.

I’ve directly asked you multiple times for your opinion and your ideas, since you seem so bent on suggesting that ours won’t work, and you’ve repeatedly ignored my question while responding to other comments.

You’ve made absolutely no input of any substance in this thread.. If you want to exchange ideas and debate the merits of various actions, fine. That’s what I want, too. If you just want to continue to denegrate Jane’s and the other ‘Pups’ actions and ideas, then I’ll say good day to you, sir.

What was your last FDL user name?

Mods, apologies.

Appreciate you keeping the dialogue civil. That is the more important value.

Guess I’m not going to get an answer to the question I’ve been asking for the last two hours…

I’ve got a little more to say (nothing incite-ful but hopefully insightful):

It won’t happen overnight, and you may be gray, if not already, before you see any tangible progress, but if you’re going to take this Beast down, you have to think big, really BIG.

Wrong again. Wikileaks IS an overnight, tangible progress. Hence the resistance and the extreme (and extremely stupid) measures to quench it. And it is BIG. Big enough to have this entire fascist government turn its ugly head, which is an accomplishment usually relegated to terrorist acts or forces of nature. This situation, Wikileaks and the criminal incarceration of Bradley Manning, is an important moment in history. Calling for patience and suggesting we haven’t any “capacity” reeks of government meddling and damage control.

Agreed 100%. This is a defining moment for the age of technology and our current generation. What our government gets away with IRT Bradley Manning will forever change how our military’s accused are dealth with. And whatever happens to Wikileaks will forever shape how the world deals with whistleblowers.

Wikileaks is a hugely important entity and must be kept alive. It’s one of the few organizations actually telling the truth in this world.

Anyone know why Manning’s in a brig and not a stockade, since he’s Army. Given my druthers, I’d avoid the Marine brig like the plague.

You can find that point discussed in the letter from a former Commandant of QMCB:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/01/20/former-commander-of-headquarters-company-at-quantico-objects-to-treatment-of-bradley-manning/

January 20, 2011
From DAVID C. MACMICHAEL
General James F. Amos
Commandant of the Marine Corps
3000 Marine Corps Pentagon
Washington DC 20350-3000

I was initially ambivalent about signing since I don’t see much use in complaining to the commander of the brig. I’d would be much more enthusiastic about signing a petition that said I wouldn’t give a dime to help any Democrats until Manning was released nor would I vote for them in any elections. I don’t think there’s any doubt Mannings situation is entirely political. I’m happy to do it if it helps him to know that people out here support him, I just worry it won’t do anything to get him out of there.

I think this issue (Manning / Wikileaks) probably outranks any other. It’s the secrecy that the Administration is trying to protect and without knowing what our government is doing we really have no hope of having any kind of democracy.

I gave the answer, but it’s not the answer you were looking for, because you weren’t really looking for an answer. I said the petition wouldn’t work. Many of you then conflated that with House pleading his case from a legal standpoint, That I do agree with in rationale and spirit, but it still doesn’t answer the larger question of tackling the Beast that just keeps popping Bradley Manning type cases, and worse, out of the ground like whack a mole. For that, you have to think BIG, like I said above. It apparently fell on deaf ears, or for those who read it, ridicule was the response. For the record, I haven’t ridiculed Jane for her intentions…because i know her heart is in the right place.

By the way, is House doing this pro bono?

Also, how many of you here support the troops? I don’t. If you support the troops, you support the Beast that brings the wrath of war upon the inhabitants of this planet.

Where’s the answer? Use the blockquotes and the reply and show it to us.

Okay. You’re still not answering my question. I’m asking for specifics. Think Big and Establish a Think Tank to come up with strategies to take down The Beast aren’t relaly specific suggestions. You suggested to someone else (again, not a direct answer to my question) that they should start an idea thread.

You’ve been implying all day that you had ideas for more effective action. This was the premise for you saying this petition would do nothing. Not only would the petition do nothing, but there are better ways to do something. That’s what you said.

I’m asking what those better ways are. Paying people to come up with ideas at a Think Tank, thinking Big, and starting a thread on a blog (sounds kinda like a petition for ideas…) don’t amount to actionable suggestions to solve the current problem.

You are still not answering my question.

Again, I feel like fucking Lawrence O’Donnell. I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Just to bump this question into the current conversation, I’m interested as well…

Manning falls under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ, shouldn’t we also be hammering the Armed Services committee about this as well? The commandant of the brig is basically just following orders.

No, you’re not. It’s a loaded question, and you’re coming across as stalkingly obsessed. At this point, I don’t believe what I mentioned is even possible here, not with the mentality you are exhibiting. You have been defined by that which you believe you are struggling against and will forever be involved in a struggle because you have learned to embrace and love the exhilaration it gives you. If that’s your thing, then go for it, but it’s not effective, it’s pathological. I am not an authoritarian. I want us to arrive at a new world together, so I’m not going to dictate specifics because the specifics are what we all need to figure out.

I think Not signing it…. is signing on for Silence.
Thank you, Jane and David. I wish I could be there in support.

You want us to arrive at a new world together but you won’t “dictate” specifics because we need to figure them out? I’m not asking you to dictate anything. I’m asking you to suggest some alternatives. I think, if you have actual suggestions, they could be helpful. I agreed with you at the start that this petition isn’t likely to do anything as far as changing the establishment or bringing justive for Bradley Manning. Jane pointed out that it will make Manning feel better. I think that’s great.

What I’m asking you for, AGAIN, is some alternative suggestion to what we’re currently doing. If you want to start a conversation about the future and changing the establishment, let’s start it. What are your suggestions?

Jane pointed out that it will make Manning feel better.

How can it make Manning feel better if he has no contact with the outside world? If you care so strongly about him and his plight, as strongly as you are militantly chasing me down for an answer you have no interest in hearing because it’s not a real question, then gather a posse and head on down and break him out. And no, I’m not joking. Anything short of that that contains the kind of passion you are exhibiting here is pure posturing.

Of course, I know if you all did that, those soldiers you support would ~~~Edited by Moderator~~~

So, since this is your hang, why don’t you start that thread to end all threads about the really BIG ideas and solutions, and come up with a plan to get off the merry-go-round of eternal struggle in this paternalistic system of oppression.

As Jane states in the post, David House is about the only person from the outside that is meeting with Bradley Manning. David will be delivering the petition to the Quantico commander AND meeting with Bradley Manning this weekend.

That means that David House will be able to tell Bradley Manning of the support of the thousands of people who have signed the petition.

Thank you.

In that case, I agree that the moral support is helpful, but it won’t change the sadists mind in what they are doing to him, or what they will do to him.

How can it make Manning feel better if he has no contact with the outside world? If you care so strongly about him and his plight, as strongly as you are militantly chasing me down for an answer you have no interest in hearing because it’s not a real question, then gather a posse and head on down and break him out.

See darkine01@121

And no, I’m not joking. Anything short of that that contains the kind of passion you are exhibiting here is pure posturing.

I’m very passionate, although I don’t see how I’ve displayed it here. I’m simply being persistent. As I said upthread, I’m asking you for LEGAL solutions.

those soldiers you support

You asked upthread about folks supporting our troops. As far as I know, nobody answered you. I sure as hell didn’t. I certainly don’t support any of our foreign wars of occupation. I have individual friends that serve in the Armed Forces and I support them on a personal level, but give them no illusion that I support the actions they take in the name of our Nation.

why don’t you start that thread to end all threads about the really BIG ideas and solutions, and come up with a plan to get off the merry-go-round of eternal struggle in this paternalistic system of oppression.

This is not my goal. This is your stated goal from upthread. I never said this is what we need to do. I simply asked you

What does NOT signing it (the petition) accomplish?

You then responded with

we would be spending an inordinate amount of time petition organizing and signing rather than possibly fomenting a more effective game plan for conquering this Beast of a system

And

Sure, it might make you feel better to think you are doing everything you can, but it doesn’t mean you are doing everything that can be done, or that your methods are effective when looking at the big picture. Once again, I know you’re well-intentioned and your hearts are in the right place, but that doesn’t make what you’re doing any more effective.

So I began asking you for suggestions on effective action. You have yet to provide me with any.

I’ll ask again. What do you suggest we do to effect change in our society? Or to start a better society? How do you think we should go about that?

These are legitimate questions designed to ellicit a response. I’m constantly seeking possible solutions to the things that plague our society as a whole, and solutions to the systemic problems of our current government. I’d appreciate a genuine response.

The only way to “change the sadists minds” is to go up the chain of command. The only way to go up the chain is to appeal to people in power and make sure they know they will be held accountable. The only way to make them know they will be held accountable is to say “This is who I am, and this is what I stand for, and I am not alone.” THAT’S how movements grow, not by investing in a circle jerk of eggheads and waiting for something to hatch.

Well said hotdog. I tell folks all the time that calls to Senators’ offices do something. If those phone-jockeys answer enough calls about a subject they get irritated and frustrated. Those frustrations are expressed to the higher-ups. Those higher-ups report to those in charge. The people in charge start to realize that something may need to change. It’s not a fruitless exercise at all. Neither is this petition.

Right on! Love your last sentence.

THAT’S how movements grow

Like the Teabag Movement?

I’m afraid if you want REAL change, you’re going to have to be willing to shut your computers off, get out of the coffee shops and take it physically like they did in Russia, China and Cuba. If you don’t start that plan now, when this devolves into chaos, it will be too late and the power vacuum will be filled by those who have been thinking about it and have a plan. Appealing to power when that time comes, and it’s coming soon, will no longer be an option. Like I said, you may have some pseudo one-off “victories” here and there with your current approach, but for anything that really matters, like the bail-out to the bankers, phone calls, petitions, letters and protests don’t mean a thing.

Sorry to not respond in kind. My time is limited to drive-bys a few times a day. Your points are great. Keep it up and don’t let the bastards drag you down!

Let me hear you say you don’t support the troops. I can say it. I don’t support the troops, morally. I am coerced by the “law”, for which you appear to have such respect, to pay taxes which go to fund the MIC to the tune of 60 cents on every FIT dollar collected. I choose to pay it, because I think I can do better by my family out of jail as opposed to in jail, and I have an aversion to anal rape. I teach my children that soldiers are murderers and to never, ever join the military and to never morally support anyone who does. I believe in starving the Beast to the extent that’s possible without being incarcerated and anally raped.

My son was studying for a test tonight, he’s eight, and one of the questions was concerning our form of Government. He said “Dad, they are saying we are a Democratic Republic but I know we’re really an Oligarchy pretending to be a Democratic Republic.” That’s my boy!!!

Are you doing that with your children? If Bradley Manning’s parents had done that with him, and all the other parents of soldiers had done it, there wouldn’t be a need for a petition, would there?

Now I see! You believe our country is a lot further gone than I do. You’re calling for armed revolution, or suggesting that it is the only solution to the greater problem at this point in time.

I still believe in our Democratic system. I believe we can influence the way this country is run at the polls.

Don’t get my wrong. I think our efforts will probably fail and armed revolution is in this country’s future. I’m just not ready to give up the good fight, yet.

I don’t support the troops.

I always think worst case, and then allow myself to be pleasantly surprised. It beats the other way around.

I don’t necessarily believe armed revolution will take place. I believe it will take that to get this planet/universe out of the cold dead hands of the Plutocratic Oligarchy.

The possible permutations for the near to mid-term future are myriad, some more plausible and possible than others, but mostly bleak in one form or another.

My nightmares of nuclear conflagration started up again a couple of months ago. I hadn’t had one for 30 years. I had them regularly when I was a kid. I hope it’s not an omen. The last one was terrifying. I woke up sobbing terribly. I couldn’t shake it for a couple of days. The imagery and suffering was stark and piercing.

Wrong yet again. You’re batting zero dude. Real change in this era comes through organizing in the digital world. It’s not one world or the other, it’s both. We’re all communicating ideas via the internet, and ideas are what galvanize people. If you’re intimidated by black-lists kept by the Stasi, I’m betting you wouldn’t have the guts to march in DC while snipers watch you in their scopes from buildings overhead (been there, done that). REAL change is going to come from organizing in ways that Wikileaks has only just begun to tap. If people in this country wanted to show the oligarchy how much power they had, they’d do it by organizing giant, instant boycotts over the internet, not by getting themselves shot by Raytheon’s microwave gun. The petition Jane is asking for is a token. It’s a physical act that dares the ruffians to act in the manner their mamas should have taught them to act. The power to influence outmoded government will be birthed in the medium in which Jane is a champion. This one.

Thank you. I support Bradley Manning in his legal battle to free himself from the goons who are torturing and abusing him. I spit in the direction of those goons, and all those involved in the decision to detain, torture and abuse Bradley Manning, including Obama, and the countless others to whom they do the same. It is my wish that one day real justice is administered to those who are responsible for these acts and the countless other acts of inhumanity leveled on innocent people the world over. And yes, like John Lennon, I do Imagine. Call me a fool.

Will House take this with him, and put it on top so it doesn’t get lost with the 50,000 other well wishes?

I’m not the one who said I was intimidated by my name being on a list. Reddog said it. I don’t think I’m significant enough to be on a list, and if I am, so what? If they’re watching, I’ve just dropped my pants and mooned them. Take that you bastards!!!!! And, I just shot them the bird. This internet protest stuff is contagious. I think I could grow to like it.

That’s a wonderful idea. Interesting how no one’s taking you up on it.

UCMJ eliminates bail not habeas corpus.

I had other ideas that were censored by the moderator perhaps as off topic, the main one being that FDL becomes a cooperative rather than the hierarchy it is. I know Jane abhors the idea and it is her sandbox. Interestingly the son of a long time friend who is a rabid right winger (the son not the friend)who takes Rush literally has the same attitude. He once owned a string of laundromats. He said if all his customers wanted his place to be painted pink and he wanted it white, it would be white. I don’t understand this attitude, but it is epidemic.

Do you have any idea why they haven’t attempted habeus corpus?

Agreed.

Jane,
Great work and good luck. I signed the petition and think any action like this is strong both for Manning and for everyone involved. Reminds me of the courage that Jim McDermott showed in going to Iraq before the US attack on that country.

What happens in the fallout of these sort of circumstances is the criminals claim that the good people didn’t do enough to stop them and so they had tacitly supported what they were doing.

As far as the concern of some people that there are or would be too many petitions to sign, well that sounds like a personal problem. If we had a bankroll for Manning’s protection I would like to see billboards with his picture and a message like: “Bradley Manning is being tortured for your sins”.

You are an inspiration to me and I am sure to Manning as well so you go girl.