On 6/7/2010, one day after Wired first reported Bradley Manning’s arrest and Adrian Lamo’s role transpired, Tom Allen and Carol Off interviewed Adrian Lamo for CBC Radio.  In the interview, Lamo says that his first meeting was with two special agents from the Army, an NSA representative and an FBI agent.  Thanks to SteveNS and nedits for transcribing.

Audio available here.

TRANSCRIPT:

CBC:  Almost every day, someone confesses their crimes to Adrian Lamo.

As a high-profile former computer hacker, he attracts those who do the kind of thing that once made him famous. But a recent disclosure by an American soldier stood out.

The Army specialist told him he was the one behind the release of sensitive military secrets to the website Wikileaks — including the video of a helicopter strike in Baghdad that left a Reuters reporter and his driver dead. We told you that story when Wikileaks went public with the video in April.

Mr. Lamo went to the Army with what he knew — and that, it seems, prompted the arrest of Specialist Bradley Manning.

We reached Adrian Lamo at home in Carmichael, California.

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CBC: Mr. Lamo, why did you report Spec. Bradley Manning to the Army?

LAMO: I felt compelled to report Spec. Manning after he revealed to me that he had leaked a substantial number of classified diplomatic cables to Wikileaks. I felt that that in and of itself endangered our economic security and in some cases our military security. And he also mentioned to me a top secret operation that the Army essentially for lack of a better word freaked out over when I mentioned it to them. They would not even say it out loud, they wrote it on paper and showed it to somebody else when discussing it. It was when I initially confirmed through a friend of mine who has experience in military counterintelligence and had him virtually blanch or at least I imagine over the telephone when I mentioned the operation that I knew that I had to act.

CBC: What we know of the material that Spec. Manning leaked is a well-known video that shows an Army attack – a helicopter attack – in Baghdad where two Iraqi journalists were killed. But it wasn’t that video that made you — the fact that he was the one — he confessed that he was the leaker of that, it was these other documents that particularly troubled you. Is that the case?

LAMO: That is correct. Had it just been that video I would have left well enough alone. It’s not my place to say whether leaking that video was right or wrong, but the actions depicted in it are deplorable and it was important that it see the light of day. That video would not have induced me to report him.

CBC: How did the Army react to what you told them?

LAMO: They drove up two special agents from a fairly good distance in order to discuss it along with an FBI agent and a representative from the NSA. They took it very – very seriously. Everybody who I spoke to was very professional, and it kind of took me by surprise and I think it took the FBI by surprise when Manning was arrested. At the table we didn’t discuss arresting him at any point. I was just instructed to continue on as usual.

CBC: And now Wired magazine is reporting what you just said, that the military has arrested Specialist Manning. He’s being held in Kuwait. The State Dept. doesn’t confirm that, but his family says that that’s what they’ve been told by an Army defense lawyer. What role have you been told you might play in the prosecution of Specialist Manning?

LAMO: I have been asked about testifying against Spec. Manning and after sleeping on this, I feel that bad about the idea, I don’t want to, but I made a promise to the FBI that I would and that’s one that I have to keep. That said, it was a heartbreaking decision all around because I know that I’m probably ruining his life and words cannot express how badly I feel. However, much in the same way I started a computer security company when my sentence was over, I really, really hope that somewhere down the road he’ll have a chance to rehabilitate himself in the same way that I did.

CBC: Talk about your sentence. You were a hacker yourself, a rather high-profile one. And people have told you – many people have confessed to you – their own hacking, their own efforts to get into material. Did Spec. Manning tell you why he wanted to leak this material to Wikileaks?

LAMO:  Well, people come to me on an almost daily basis with confessions of federal felonies, and I have never turned any of them in. I consider trust to be an important thing. In the situation with Spec. Manning I was faced with two choices: one, in which people would be likely to hate me, and the second, where I would hate myself. But I am not a snitch by trade, and I feel bad that circumstances forced me to be one here.

CBC: I just wonder, if Spec. Manning told you why he felt compelled to turn this material over, or to leak it, to Wikileaks?

LAMO: He was dissatisfied with certain Army policies and he wanted to make a difference in the world, and that difference would include destabilizing United States foreign policy. I don’t know how he felt things would go from there, he didn’t really have an end game planned, he had just had an end game.

CBC: All right, well we will follow developments in the case of Spec. Manning and i thank you for speaking with us Mr. Lamo.

LAMO: Thank you.

CBC: Good-bye.

LAMO: Godspeed.

CBC: Adrian Lamo is a former computer hacker. He was in Carmichael, California.

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