Progressives were justifiably upset when Michelle Malkin and the right wing went after Graham Frost and his family for speaking up about health care during the Bush administration. But apparently it wasn’t the tactic that was appalling, it was just the target:
In fact, this whole campaign feels a bit like déjà-vu: As the first reporters to expose the Tea Party as an Astroturf PR campaign funded by FreedomWorks and Koch-related front groups back in February, 2009, we see many of the same elements driving the current “rebellion” against the TSA: Koch-related libertarians, Washington lobbyists and PR operatives posing as “ordinary citizens,” and suspicious fake-grassroots outrage relentlessly promoted in the same old right-wing echo chamber.
Seriously? Is there evidence of this? No, it’s just guilt by (perceived) association, an attack on a government critic. It’s no different from what the Bush administration did to Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson.
The nation recoils in horror that Tyner (and others) define themselves as “libertarians.” It’s a retreat into values-free tribalist blather, and Glenzilla responds:
In order to do what Tyner did — firmly assert one’s rights against government agents and then vocally and publicly complain about rights infringements — one has to take one’s liberty seriously. After all, to do something like that is to risk being threatened by the Federal Government and smeared by journalists loyal to those in power. It’s hardly surprising that many of the people willing to do that have incorporated the concept of liberty into their political identity. The Nation may want to ask someone what the ”L” in the ACLU stands for.
And therein lies the most odious premise in this smear piece: anyone who doesn’t quietly, meekly and immediately submit to Government orders and invasions — or anyone who stands up to government power and challenges it — is inherently suspect. Just as the establishment-worshiping, political-power-defending Ruth Marcus taught us today in The Washington Post, objecting to what the Government is doing here is just immature and ungrateful; mature, psychologically healthy people shut up and submit. That’s how you prove that you’re a normal, responsible, upstanding good citizen: by not making waves, doing what you’re told, declaring yourself a loyal Republican or Democrat and then cheering for your team, and — most of all — accepting in the name of Fear that you must suffer indignities, humiliations and always-increasing loss of liberties at the hands of unchallengeable functionaries of the state. I don’t really care what political label John Tyner applies to himself: we need far more of his civil resistance in our citizenry and far less of the mindless obedient drone behavior which these Nation writers seem to venerate.
I’ve talked to Tyner. It’s literally impossible to have a conversation with the guy and come away with the impression that he’s a publicity-seeking political operative. He was unprepared for what happened in the aftermath, and was primarily concerned with protecting his family. In his interview with the Nation, he completely undercuts their entire premise: “I can’t set up the TSA side of this action,” he said.
But writers Mark Ames and Yasha Levine had an agenda, and they carried it through the journalistic “process” from start to finish:
At least one local TSA administrator wondered if Tyner hadn’t come to the airport prepared to create a scandal.
There is absolutely no legitimate journalistic reason, none, to grant anonymity to this TSA official. It’s pure supposition. There is nothing in his realm of expertise that leads him to this conclusion, it’s just a hunch, completely unsubstantiated, advanced for the purpose of attacking the integrity of a government critic — on a day when the government is trying to head off further civil disobedience.
It’s obscene that The Nation published this hit piece. There’s nothing “liberal” about using your platform to launder unsubstantiated attacks by government officials against individual citizens who criticize them. They owe everyone involved an apology, and unless they can provide proof for the claims they make, they should print a retraction.
You can download this sheet to print and take with you to the airport: Know Your Passenger Rights (PDF)





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Oh snap Jane
Thanks for bringing this to light. I would love to say I was shocked that the Nation would print such an article, but of course I would be lying. While the Nation has many good writers, many of them our just democratic apologists. This from Katrina Vanden Heuvel in her November 4, 2008 blog:
http://www.thenation.com/blog/transformational-presidency
Sure they have criticized many Obama administration policies, but rarely do they blame the president. Snark( Only right wing silly people could object to getting groped when the democrats are in charge) end Snark
The Nation profited mightily from the campaign against George Bush and to elect Barack Obama. It became popular again as folk forgot that it has always urged Ralph Nader not to run and has been lacking in integrity since Obama came into office, the print version of DailyKos I always think. It is such a pity when it labels itself as progressive – a magazine that has so much of the ‘wish it was’ and just a veneer of being what it purports to be.
I am encouraged that my Democratic Senator, Tom Udall, sent me a request for my opinion on the TSA rules because although I rarely fly, the public transportation issue is a real one for me and I won’t subject my person to such unhealthful invasions if this sort of thing expands to trains and buses; I just won’t.
Last night the local news announced they would not say whether or not the machines and the groping would be happening at the local airport. Yet we hear that once you are there you cannot leave. Kafka couldn’t invent a scenario like this.
I hope the Nation will see their policy immediately reflected in their readership. Bravo to John Tyner.
One of the reasons I dropped my subscription to their magazine.
I asked this on an earlier thread when someone linked to Glenzilla’s critic: Has there been any change in funding for The Nation of late? Have they done similar hit pieces before & if so, who were the targets?
Thank you for calling out The Nation when it’s necessary to do so. There’s no question that this is one of those cases. Katrina needs to reconnect with the concept of “Agitate, then organize.”
I agree with Glenn:
On this point, though, I wish he’d gone a step further:
The imperative to submit to a totalitarian police state is a big problem, but who’s been pulling the government’s strings for the last few decades is the real heart of the problem.
The Nation has been acting a lead gatekeeper for a long, long time.
Your comment addresses part of my Qs in 5. Thanks.
The Nation has been a disgraceful rag since 2008 at least, maybe earlier, but definately since the glorious moment. The Nation should be attuned to the interests of ordinary powerless people. They should not be defending the god damn fascist TSA, or any other authoritarian institution. They know better so peices like this come off as even MORE offensive.
Thank you.
There have been way too many brain-damaged liberal / progressive attempts to defend TSA on the grounds that if the Tea Party is against TSA then it must be supported.
When I read that article, I thought, wtf!
Whatever, these measures should be protested. And of course, privatization should be as well.
Has anyone contacted Chris Hayes? He seems reasonably sane.
Thank you for this. I’m becoming very suspicious of the divisive rhetoric used to alienate the Tea Party from progressives. As I read articles such as this and the comments of the many thinking progressives on this site, I am becoming more and more convinced that we (progressives and Tea Partiers) are being manipulated and (frankly) used. Push the right (or progressive) button/s, and we (or progressives) respond on cue, without any thought or analysis. Until now (?).
Between this “response” by the Nation and the WaPoo’s blow-off via Ruth Marcus, it’s clear that the Veal Pen got invited in for some extra-special WH tea & cookies time over the last couple of days.
Come to think of it, I recall LoDoh on MSNBC being among the first to interview Tyner and asking him if this were a stunt for publicity.
MSNBC, Nov 18, Last Word:
There’s a lot of great booster clubberism over in Glenn’s comments.
Amazing.
I really expect better from the Nation. This is just unacceptable on their part.
Did you ask John Tyner why he turned on the video prior to this ordeal?
And did you ask him about the “I’ll have you arrested” part?
Having been groped by the TSA myself, I loathe them. However…
It would not occur to the vast majority of people to say, “I’ll have you arrested”, as Tyner did, let alone turn on this recorder before the groping was to occur.
Your indignation over this is not entirely understandable.
“At least one local TSA administrator wondered if Tyner hadn’t come to the airport prepared to create a scandal.”
Well, dammitall, I thought the same thing. Why is this so unreasonable, Jane?
I always think the same thing whenever I see one of these Nation Magazine Pravada jobs. But Chris Hayes only speaks for The Nation when he submits his stuff. He dosent speak for the rest of them.
The Nation isn’t alone. Most of the MSM is siding with TSA. Anyone surprised? The MSM always sides with the establishment.
Excellent post, Jane. Any chance of cross-publishing it at RedState.com?
Hopefully the public-private abuses of power at TSA will open the door further to: 1) expanded coalition-building between progressives and conservatives; and 2) more public willingness to put truth-telling ahead of social polemics.
OK I need to go read TFA, but sympathy, however oblique, for these TSA submit-now-to-zap-or-grope insults has little to do with Progressive philosophy as I see it.
I absolutely agree, Jane. Thanks for this. I was starting to think I was losing it, thank god it wasn’t me – it was them.
I don’t understand where Nation is coming from, trying to have it both ways? That is not going to work, it is crazy-making.
That’s sad. The Nation has moved into the veal pen.
Different strokes for different folks. Tyner may have turned on his camera & thought of how he would react because he could see what was happening to the people in front of him. His reaction is very similar to what mine might have been in his place, even if, or especially if, I knew nothing about such an invasion prior to arriving at the
scene of the crimesairport.Besides, The Nation’s criticism of Tyner is just a stoopid way of making him the issue, rather than addressing the real issue, which is gross USG violation of our rights.
Phone the airport, they should be able to tell you.
In the 1770′s citizens of the Colonies had a word to describe those who willingly submitted to the power of the rulers–”Tories”. What could be more safe and secure than quartering redcoats in your house?
Why does ANYONE take this woman seriously?
What a moran.
Oh
if The Nation did not make this shit up, under what possible journalistic professionalism would The Nation allow such an accuser to remain anonymous.
Where was the Nation while Clinton did NAFTA and destroyed the media? Can you imagine, they are no different then the people who supported Bush because he was a republican? And now the dems can do far more damage to this country because of so called progressives like them. Well, there are tons more people out there to the left of them, that will not vote for Obama, especially after his first act after 2010 election was to do an “Arms Deal” with India. Not exactly progressive.
I’ll bet Seoul will be surprised !
the Main Stream Media is own by rich republicans, so them supporting the TSA is normal.
the NATION attack on John Tyner is similar to how the New York Times attacked Halter
on one level you have Trojan Horses Like Obama (who keep progressives in check)
level two you have trojan horse Senators Like Nelson, Baucus (who keep progressives in check)
level three you have phony liberal news outlets like the New York Times, Nation, MSNBC etc. who keep progressives in check
to maintain the status quo, the elites have to use such tactics
SUN TZU says it best
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
Not to mention Pyongyang!
Oh thank you. I’m a witch who works her craft with words, that one is per-r-rfect! Just what I needed. Thank you.
Tories, now we have a good name for them. I have a feeling it is really going to catch on.
Ugly, pathetic, and shameful.
What does everyone think of Self-Appointed Apologist in Chief at the DailyKos, “Don’t blame TSA officers for doing their job” Laura Clawson, and her opinion today?
I hope she gets the much needed intellectual abuse that all authoritarians deserve. Pisses me off so much – don’t know what to say . . . The Nation and Kos, down the same rabbit hole.
5th Paragraph – please capitalize nation. The Nation (magazine) is not the nation.
I cancelled my sub for The Nation when they began to defend Corporate Democrats for the same acts for which they derided Republicans.
That is not a defensible liberal position.
Palin did not just become a MORON, she has always been a MORON
however the so call MSM treats her like some political heavy weight, because the elites now want all USA presidents, senators, house members, to be dumb as crap!
the elites know it is easy to control the stupid!
After Palin says N Korea is an ally of the USA, one would think this would end her political career. NOT!!! going to happen
the MSM will work over time to prop Palin back up!
I’ll say it again.
Ben Franklin, the one who coined something about those willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserve and get neither, would be an outcast today.
Ben Franklin. Forefather. Would be railed against by today’s media. Screamed at by government officials. Ridiculed by talking heads.
When Ben Franklin would be considered an outcast in your country, then there’s something wrong with your country.
Our corporate overseers have some psyops damage control to do. The White House and Pistole are making the Tea Party the new Professional Left. As we all know, within the Village Beltway they are equivalent. This is classic Veal Pen but they cannot keep playing this same old triangulation forever. If the Tea Party wants to fight government groping, I will support that.
The Nation story left out an important fact about McLain. She is “smokinghot”.
No, but it sure is typical.
Whoa! When did I suggest anything else?
@jedi and Morgan, believe it or not there are a lot of Tea Party people (myself included) who do NOT support a Palin run for the presidency. It’s nice to paint us with a broad brush, but a great many Tea Party people who love Palin as a person do not support her as a 2012 candidate (I am definitely one of those who don’t).
Cross-post to Redstate? Not a bad idea.
Link.
SPalin mispeaked. Generally, the North is our ally while the Global South provides our booty for plunder.
Why is our resources always under the soil of other countries? It’s so annoying. /S
you didn’t
I am just saying anyone that call themselves a journalist should have known this obvious fact! Palin is a MORON
I was just piggy backing on what you said
Palin 15 minutes of fame should have ended two years ago
There is NOTHING more despicable than our Child-Molester-in-Chief condoning the molesting of our children.
I hope you will comment often at FDL. Maybe you could help us understand what the Tea Party actually is. It’s hard to get a handle on it. And a sincere question, please – what is it about Sarah Palin that makes you love her?
Um, um, I subscribe to The Nation but I contribute more $$ to firedoglake than to The Nation. The Nation runs ship cruises twice a year, and hardly anyone gets to the pier who doesn’t fly there from home. The Nation doesn’t want to lose cruise business now, do it? If firedoglake hosted cruises we probably wouldn’t be reading as much here about airport body snatchers.
Excellently put.
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is up: Sarah Palin Speaks on the Korean Crisis
Oh, for the love of all that is Holy…That woman must never be near another lever of power. Sparsely populated state or otherwise. Period.
Hey a little off topic,But on the subject of the “war on terrr”, how many people have read about the “senior taliban commander” that US was negotiating with? The one that turned about to be not a taliban commamnder at all. Not even a Talban in fact. Just a faker. I love the line from a “senior US diplomat” .. “Its not him, and we gave him a lot of money”…. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/world/asia/23kabul.html
The irony is that they would have if it weren’t for the liberal/statist media’s promotion of her (granted through negative publicity), but left alone, she’d have disappeared from the scene once she quit as Alaska governor. This is clear as day to most people, but people kept attacking her, keeping her in the spotlight, giving her the national megaphone. It’s amazing, isn’t it, that someone who probably should have been left to her outdoor life in Alaska was forced to the forefront of socio-cultural political discourse, thus making her an actual contender for president in 2012. Again, not something I support, nor do a great many other “teabaggers.” It’s all made up, invented. Stop and think.
Who is Morgan?
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher and the Fierpup Walkin Wounded:
This hit piece doesn’t surprise me and I am very happy that your are leveragin’ Glennzilla’s piece, Sister Hamsher. I got a call from the Nation folks a couple a weeks ago lookin’ for money and after I got up from roflmao I told the caller that first off most of the folks he was callin and all the folks the Nation is s’posed to speak for and to don’t have any money left to give to the Nation Foundation and maybe if Cruella Vanden Heuval would forgo a few of those Manhatten cocktail parties and Caribbean cruises with high rollers she would have enough time to figure out why the Nation is goin broke…(or maybe not).
But before you start a campaign that ends up shootin’ some of our own troops I would encourage you to review some of the trends that have been showin’ up around FDL lately in what appears to be your move to the “libertarian center”. When conversation moves to the wars, there are voices who go unchallenged that characterize the National Guard, Reserve and recent regular enlisted troops as “mecenaries”. Indeed, when someone attempts to set these lunatics straight, the responses get edited while the original comments go unchallenged. Also, when goin after Obama the FDL comments get full of Naderite appologists and, I think you risk marginalizin’ your audience to those who are willfully ignorant of our history.
I think that your work through FDL is part of a vanguard for real political change but I would urge you to take a moment or maybe begin a series of posts on what a “new” anti-war politics looks like and where it is goin’. Keep up the pressure and…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHERE TO SHOOT!!!
So now The Nation is against the 4th Amendment?
The Nation is against whatever Obama is against. Period.
Aw, thanks, I was worried that I was being too vocal here. About Sarah, I love her because she’s tough as nails, she’s totally unafraid of anyone or anything (she fights the establishment GOP just as much as she fights the Dems), she’s personable and gorgeous (just like Obama, not to be underestimated), and she’s very much an American patriot. She also, although many don’t like to admit it, has a very good handle on energy, both our nation’s natural resources and our ability to work toward renewable energy (she’s dismissed on this for some reason).
All that said, this description (excepting her expertise on energy) applies to a great many people I know in life, none of whom I’d want to make president. I actually do not want to see Sarah run for the 2012 Rep nod (and have been saying this for ages to other Tea Partiers, many of whom agree); I really don’t. You’ll find that almost no Tea Party people identify as Republican, we’re not. We’re libertarians, conservatives, and “old-fashioned” democrats (ala JFK). But the thing is, the more she’s attacked, the more of an underdog she’s made, the more people flock to her. Americans LOVE an underdog. The best thing we (and I’m being presumptuous and including both progs and “teabaggers”) can do is to just let it go. Attacking her empowers her. We know that.
So just curious Norske, you in favor of giving up the 4th amendment or opposed?
First they came for John Tyner…
References to Martin Niemoller’s oft-quoted lament are almost passe because they have become so common since the Bush years and Obama’s continuation of his and Dick Cheney’s worst legal excesses. But Niemoller’s observation retains its power because he directed it at intellectuals’ laissez-faire attitude toward his government’s creeping, then full-blown police state tactics.
Harper’s Scott Horton talks about the Germans’ reappraisal of that period. He follows with an interview of Yale’s Bruce Ackerman, about his The Decline and Fall of the American Republic.
Citizen Twain:
Ooops, thought I was readin’ FDL….JEEsus!
Uggh. I’m a great fan (and subscriber) of The Nation, but their attitude on this one is reprehensible.
Say, wasn’t that Rosa Parks lady a suspicious character? Wasn’t she working with one of them Comm-yunistic civil rights groups? Didn’t she set up the Montgomery bus system?
Well I can tell you where the “new” anti-war politics AREN’T going, and that’s refusing to make cause with other anti-war supporters because people might not share every single opinion with them.
And thanks for your concern about our “marginalization.” I’m deeply touched. I’m comfortable, however, that we still continue to represent (as we always have) broadly popular public opinions. It’s the extremists who demand a loyalty oath within a cult of personality who got a good swift ass-kicking in November, and their numbers grow smaller every day. The fastest growing segment of the political spectrum are those who trust neither party. There’s good reason for that, and I’m happy that we provide a place for those who are justifiably skeptical that their own interests are being represented in the current system.
We are, and continue to be, issue-drive. Values last; cults have a way of sputtering out, but not before they’re reduced to an echo chamber of the craziest who have no where else to go. I don’t think catering to that segment is a “growth industry” for anyone, and will gladly leave it to others.
I really appreciate that you took the time to answer. I don’t see what you see in Palin but that’s fine. People like different flavors of ice cream, too. I’m 77 and thought the world had ended when JFK died. I think there are issues where Tea Party members and Progressives can find common cause and we should try. Again, welcome to the Lake.
I still want to know who “Morgan” is because if someone can’t show the courtesy to get my name right, then I’m afraid granting them credibility isn’t something I’m willing to do.
What does everyone think of Self-Appointed Apologist in Chief at the DailyKos, “Don’t blame TSA officers for doing their job” Laura Clawson, and her opinion today?
Par for the course for her. She also went after those who are attacking President Obama for TSA abuses, even though the buck stops on his desk. So who, then, deserves the blame, Ms. Clawson?
Isn’t it okay to be polite at FDL? If someone takes the time to speak to us, shouldn’t we reply? Look, Norske, you would have to search far and wide to find someone more liberal and/or progressive than I am but I refuse to be rude to people. I really enjoy your comments.
Citizen phred:
Where in hell do you get the idea that I’m in favor of givin’ up the 4th amendment??!!! I been workin’ to make Obama a one termer and we make the corporate wars the center of our politics and I will continue to work until they cart me away to the re-education camps. JEEsus, I’m done with this fuckin’ place. Please spend a little quiet time thinkin about the difference beween individual rights and individualism and then try and get your brain around the concept of “conservative libertarian”…there is no such thing as a censervative libertarian and those who call themselves such are nuthin more than your standard American fascist and they are usually racist and certainly not opposed to limiting the 4th amendment rights of those with whom they disagree.
Citizen Hamsher:
LOL…your response to my concern is deeply felt…and I thank you for clearing up the direction of your politics…I wonder how long it’s gunna take before a few others around here figure out where you’re takin ‘em.
“Conservative Libertarian” = Republican who smokes dope. Just my .02. Because otherwise it’s an oxymoron.
first rule of being a serious progressive journalist “Obama can do no harm” unless he does and then it’s the second rule “It could be so much worse if the Republicans were in charge”.
Well put. It’s either, the GOP sucks more or the GOP secretly made him do/not do something.
More damning video is needed. If Democrats and the MSM are inundated with footage of uniformed government agents copping a good feel, and footage of elected officials getting waved through without a scan or a grope, perhaps they will change their tune.
The MSM will chase money. If the money is in anti-TSA groping, the MSM will chase it. Threats and pressure from the government establishment will give them pause, but the MSM will not be able to resist the money shot of a nun or a Hasidic Jew or a little girl getting felt up.
I didn’t. However, in your comment you didn’t address anything in Jane’s post. So I was just curious what your take on the TSA was… Unfortunately, I still don’t know.
You haven’t been around for awhile, why the sudden burst of misplaced vitriol?
In the thirties, they were called “Good Germans”.
mercenary: hired soldier, paid soldier, hireling. The all volunteer military ended decades ago. Those that fight today may be deluding themselves into believing that they are patriots but they are naught but hirelings. Peace
It sounds like a Palinism, made up to join any number of words she remembers and imagines she can demonize.
Jawohl. See Scott Horton at Harper’s on how it took more than six decades for the Germans to reappraise themselves. Here, it will take longer, if it happens at all.
many of those independents are “pissed off progressives” who left the dems. And the dems keeping saying the independents want them down the middle. Can they be that stupid?
What does that have to do with anything?
What a lame article!
yes
first rule of being a serious progressive journalist “Obama can do no harm” unless he does and then it’s the second rule “It could be so much worse if the Republicans were in charge”.
That’s the regular-strength rule. The extra-strength rule is “Look over there–Sarah Palin!”
You’re interested in a new anti-war politics, yet you use over-the-top war tropes to do it? I don’t get it. Are we supposed to war our way to a new way of being anti-war? WTF?
Nice self-contradicting rant, NFT. What’s next, fucking for abstinence? No wait, I know: let’s all arrive at airports totally nude, that’ll learn for invading our privacy, right?
If you’re seriously interested in ending war, I suggest you lose the self-defeating devotion to war as your metaphor of choice. You can start by dropping the ridiculous exhortations to pass ammunition etc. in the effort.
After all, my firebrand friend, as I’m sure you’re well aware, it used to be just the pen, now it’s the keyboard that’s mightier than the sword. I got all the “ammo” I’ll ever need right here.
I can’t help but wonder about this us vs. them mentality that is obviously being fueled by the statist media and the Obama syndicate. We don’t have to agree or see eye to eye on Palin, it’s enough that we both agree that she should not be president. Isn’t it?
For starters yes and perhaps we can agree this groping or radiating people at airports is not a good thing.
But they have resisted it. We’ve got two cancer survivors who’ve been humiliated and abused (one had to hand over her prosthetic breast to the TSA, the other left covered in urine and weeping), but the only people making noise are the “crazies” (i.e. you progressives and we Tea Partiers). It’s time, I think, that we took control of the narrative.
LOL, we absolutely agree on that point. ;)
According to today’s media reports, nothing happened. People are using the x-ray and very very few are opting out for patdown’s. People want to get home to their loved ones for Thanksgiving, not be a pain in the ass. If you are a normal person who fly’s infrequently, the radiation from this will never harm you. American’s know what is important this holiday, traveling safe and being home with family. Stop complaining about nothing.
It is a political movement.
I modeled it after girl scout troops since that is what I know. I was a new troop organizer for years. If you compare the structure to girl scouts you will see it is similar. I meant it to grow organically, just like it does. I did that on purpose because I knew our enemy kills our leaders. Anyone who was going to lead was going to have to do it in secret.
Personally I’m very pleased with how it is going. Not exactly like I planned, but good enough.
Citizen phred:
Jane’s post was about the Nation’s take-down of John Tyner…I responded in the affirmative and, indeed, complimented her on supporting Glennzilla’s rapid response…my additional comments were intended to generate discussion of a couple of the disturbing trends I see in the evolving “consensus” or political coalition that seems to be developing. And it seems I succeeded. I’m afraid however that we are gunna see a lot less self-criticism within this new movement and when the shit hits the fan, the conservative libertarians in the new politics are gunna be the first of the jackbooted guards ushering us into the camps…Read a bit of the last days of Weimer and the connections between the American oligarchy and the rise of Nazism.
Because he did not attend Trinity School, as did Katrina Vanden Heuvel. And he did not graduate from Princeton ’81, Summa Cum Laude.
Oh I cannot wait for the flame war against The Nation.
Agreed. I welcome your presence here. I have a couple of libertarian friends who are smart, decent, thoughtful people. Although we do not agree on several things, there are areas in which we are in total agreement. Our opposition to being groped or having naked pictures taken is one of those areas.
At this rate, we won’t need flashlights because we’ll all glow in the dark.
Shorter bobbyd12: “Comply with whatever you’re told to do. Surrender your liberty so I can feel safe. Allow your freedoms to vanish because I’m a coward”.
Sheeple will always find the path of least resistance. Peace
clap clap clap
I still want to know who “Morgan” is.
You mean Henry Ford, Charles Limburgh and Walt Disney? Peace
Don’t forget Prescott Bush…
You are correct and I apologize for accusing you of not responding to her post. I have been stunned by the number of Dem apologists for the TSA and so my initial question was a sincere one in regard to your views of the TSA.
I over-reacted to your response and I apologize.
I disagree with your oversimplification of libertarians, but I am happy to agree to disagree on that point. Just as “liberal” and “conservative” have largely become decoupled from any meaning other than that in the eye of the beholder (or epithet thrower), so too has “libertarian” been co-opted by a diverse and often internally inconsistent Tea Party movement.
Libertarianism is alive and well in the Live Free Or Die state and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the racist folks screaming that the government needs to keep its hands off Medicare.
There are still a lot of airports that don’t have the scanners, e.g.:
http://www.presstelegram.com/ci_16697877
The TSA says this about the “pat-downs”:
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/pat_downs.shtm
“What triggers a pat-down?
Pat-downs are used to resolve alarms at the checkpoint, including those triggered by metal detectors and AIT units. Pat-downs are also used when a person opts out of AIT screening . . . ”
But what if there is no AIT unit at your airport? The TSA doesn’t say, but I suspect that there is no “pat-down”.
In which case the “pat-down” is clearly an intimidation tactic to encourage use of the AIT unit.
I disagree.
I think media is agenda driven and what you said is used as an excuse.
The agenda in this case is to legalize rape. there is a motive for this. Some people are doing it and they know they are going to get caught soon, their defense will include the claim that it was normal to feel people up in a public setting – like airports, so doing it in jail is also perfectly OK.
You have to understand the background on this. The media is run by the CIA. The CIA rapes people on a regular basis. See, does it now make sense?
Can’t help you there Margaret ; ) And in all things, the proof is in the pudding. So we’ll see…
Being particularly gifted at messing up proper nouns on a regular basis, I cannot throw stones. It’s weird, I can almost always remember the first letter of a name, but after that, it’s anyone’s guess…
It’s easier on-line as I can see it on the screen. In casual conversation though, I’m hopeless : )
Citizen knownuddhau:
You are ignorant, Citizen knownuddhau, the grunts who are shoulderin the brunt of the violence against our occupation are NG, Reserve and newly minted “volunteers”…the NG’s and reserves went in for the extra cash with the expressed idea that they would be stateside unless there was a full blown “national emergency”. Many went through at least 2 and sometimes 3 deployments before they could get out and the new recuits to the regular armed forces are responding to the law of restricted choice since their opportunities for education or employment are now non-existent. They have no idea what they are in for but they soon find out. Take a look at the movie “The Hurt Locker” and talk to anyone who has served in the last 40 years and seen a shot fired in anger…and then you can talk to me about an “anti-war movement” and self-contradicting rants. Until then, shut the fuck up about stuff of which you clearly have no understanding.
Or the Zapata Offshore Oil Company, the Bay of Pigs, the CIA, George H. W. and his rat faced son George the Idiot. Peace
It doesn’t have to have to do with anything b/c it’s on a blog. Plus The Nation ID’s itself as a magazine of opinion. The Nation doesn’t (or shouldn’t) care where its next subscriber comes from. If their next subscriber is a conspiracy enthusiast who pays, it’s fair and just. Incidentally, Lee H. Oswald, Sirhan B. Sirhan, and James E. Ray each lived for a while in Dallas within three city blocks of the same location.
So did a number of other CIA agents. Peace
I’m just sayin’ that if somebody can’t be bothered to get my name right, and then can’t just say “I’m sorry I got your name wrong”, but ignore the inquiry instead, then it’s hardly surprising that they identify with the teabag crowd where respect for them is always required but respect for others seems to be optional.
The list is long and growing.
Thanks for that one. I enjoyed it. I’d like to add I still have my telephone. I find it amps it up considerably.
After I called The Nation, I wrote them a comment, I was pleased to see they even posted it,
I consider it progress that it was printed, it used to be I could never even get that far with these Tory outfits.
The chick on the phone started telling me that they get all kinds of calls from people claiming they started the Tea Party.
I told her if she didn’t want to tell them, it was OK with me. I know the FBI listens to my phone calls, and if she didn’t what to tell her boss what I said it didn’t matter to me. I just called to inform them. That took her aback and she said she would give them a message.
Citizen phred:
Stand up response, Brother phred…no need to appologize, I never ask for appology nor do I offer ‘em uness I have misread or misunderestimated. As for “libertarian” I would only ask that you think about the two concepts I advanced: individualism and individual rights and then see if it is possible to conflate conservative and libertarian in your head at the same time without blowin your last 3 brain cells.
This is the most revolting piece to have appeared in The Nation for decades. So let’s get this straight. If the state starts carting us off to concentration camps, The Nation will smear the resisters because the Tea Baggers are protesting too? Since they like innuendo, guess who Katrina’s father worked for once upon a day? But let’s not stop with The Nation. Fact is that tons of Obamabots, especially the well paid insider types, have bought into the logic of the national security state.
I appreciate your view, but I am always intrigued by anyone who asserts that the right or conservatives or “teabaggers” are in any way associated with fascism. How does limited government “fit” the ideology of fascism (an ideology, by the way, rooted in Marxism, a leftist movement, and impossible without a massive amount of power vested in government)? The only thing remotely (and I do mean “remotely”) connected between fascism and today’s conservatism is patriotism. However, it must be acknowledged, mustn’t it?, that patriotism and rabid nationalism (a tenet of fascism as imposed by both Hitler and Mussolini) are vastly different. Let’s, for once, drop the statist media interpretations of who we are and look at each other as people.
Now that Obama has a complete list his fear has become obvious for all to see. Peace
That’s fair. And fwiw, I agree.
We get ahead of ourselves typing sometimes and apologies are often in order.
Palin serves a purpose!
You do not get the attention Palin gets without a lot of help. (Palin is a puppet, but who are here puppet masters? I agree with you, making Palin the face of the Tea Party, makes the tea party look like collection of moronic americans, I loved what the elites done here. Ron Paul is a problem, they like Palin being the face of the Tea Party)
Palin like Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Bush Sr, Obama, all come from the same cloth! they are the direct opposite of people like FDR, JFK, LBJ, NIXON, Carter, Ford, real presidents that led the naiton base on their beliefs and ideas.
Obama, Clinton, Reagan, Bush Sr. (the most dangerous president ever, a nation should never vote an ex CIA officer president) Bush, etc. don’t give orders they are presidents that take orders. (this is where the problems begin, who and what is telling OBAMA what to do and not to do? figure this out, and you will get your nation back)
all of us need to kill the labels, Tea Party, Democrat, Progressive, Republican, etc. etc. and just focus on the issues
how many americans like NAFTA?
how many americans like OBAMACARE?
how many americans like the current WARS? (the USA is not really fighting wars these days, more like finding reasons to keep Military industrial Complex necessary)
if a small group of people wanted to take over the USA what would they do?
1st consolidate control of all news media and entertainment
2nd destroy the middle class and unions via pushing jobs off shore
3rd destroy the USA political system (all the elites had to do, was plant their people in both parties, this would help them control the visions and ideas of both parties)
4th you have to get the masses to submit, this is easy, the elites of the USA done what their parents done in the 20′s created a war on terror
these four steps should get you total control of a nation like the USA
Fascism is a creation of the Roman Catholic Church and Mussolini was the vehicle the Church used to bring it to the public. Nazism is fascist-socialism and Fascism is Christian Marxism. Peace
All of the people you mentioned were Bourgeoisie Capitalists. They cared only about saving the system of capitalism. Peace
You can thank me for that. I wanted to legalize pot. Here is how I figured to do it:
Split the Republican Party by drawing out it Libertarians to start a new party, then do the same to the Democrats with progressive talking points. Combine those two new party forces to end the drug war and because of basic underlaying structural truths, by extension, all war.
It has not been easy, but in eight years with no more than a keyboard and minimal support, I figure I’m doing pretty good. It was a complicated plan with a lot of working parts, but I do have an innate advantage – I actually know what makes people tick.
I learned it all in girl scouts.
you are correct
Yep. It just re-enforces my opinion. Fairly or otherwise. I get ahead of myself while typing too so I’m not one to have the syntax error high ground. I do make every effort to correct my mistakes though, no matter my opinion of the person about whom the mistakes where made. That, I think, shows a fundamental difference in the way progressives and conservatives, (and that’s what teabaggers are), view the world and the societies which exist therein.
I’m ignorant? No shit, of many a thing. Ask my bankruptcy atty. But to ascribe to me the global attribute? Wow, I hope ad hominem isn’t the best you can do. What a lame rebuttal. Care to try again, this time like an adult?
I’ll thank you to address your comments to mine, as I did with yours, and not make attributions for which you have no grounds.
Also: point made, thanks for the help, my firebrand friend.
Citizen fuzislippers:
First put down the book “Liberal Fascism”…the great red herring of American fascism and, indeed the new American Conservatism, is the concept of limited government or it’s application. The “limitation” on government that these politics describe is the limitation of government to regulate capital or property. Government is free to demand that the general population support the security of capital and it’s property and this limited government is allowed to limit the rights of groups of individuals to any degree and to define away the rights of citizenship to groups in defense of the rights of individuals. This is, of course the mechanism of the “conservative libertarian” politics and the method of substituting individualism for individual rights.
That’s the connection between the corporate shell game of the “conservative libertarian” or Teabagger movrement and totaslitarianism…go read some German history from 1929-1933 and then you can talk to me about who’s a fascist in our politics.
Do you know E. L. Doctorow’s writings (mostly fiction)? He’s one of the few major financial funders of The Nation magazine.
Warning new Silly Troll Post tells us to bend over and obey. Is it Blogger Bob?
Citizen knowduddhau:
Yes, I agree that you are ignorant but take heart that ignorance is voluntary. I tried to disabuse you of your ignorance about bein’ “anti-war” and anti-troops apparently I was unsuccessful. But please understand that to be ignorant of something is one thing but to continue to argue with those who are not moves from the relm of ignorance to the kingdom of stupidity….and don’t you dare censor this response, Moderator!
Yes, he used to work with Ian Fleming and Ayn Rand. So I guess that by the Nation’s logic, that makes them even more spooky and libertarian than the Kochs. You could even link the Nation to the Kochs using that kind of logic, and they would be hoist on their own petard. But the real issue here is that the left has to take civil liberties seriously, as Glenn Greenwald is arguing.
How interesting, that reminds me of something Alan Watts said in a lecture titled, The Relevance of Oriental Philosophy, one of my all-time favs of his.
Not so sure about those historical claims, o ancient Egyptian (-nicknamed) friend. I prefer “Christian Imperialism,” as developed by Watts.
My translation of Christian Imperialists: Who cares what those people think, look how miserable their lives are, god sure must hate them. What a terrible temper he has. I know, let’s show god how much we love him (and make no mistake: god’s got balls), by making their lives a living hell. That’s sure to get our sorry asses into heaven.
The point being, our beliefs about the world (in this case, that the cosmos is god’s own, or Newton’s own, or even no one’s own, perpetual motion justice-dispensing war cash machine mastered by the exogenous application of ever greater leverage, as most excellently exemplified by our science, military, and economy) shape the world stage on which we play our notorious parts long before we take it.
When we come to the conclusion that our opponents must be stupid, insane, or mindlessly evil for them to do the voodoo they do to us so well, o fellow fierce firedogs, I respectfully suggest (that includes you, NFT) that it’s time to look to their worldviews, their beliefs, their (dare I say) mythologies, to make sense of otherwise inscrutable actions.
I could care less whether Tyner considers himself a libertarian. Labels increasingly are irrelevant, although the media thrives on them. What does Obama consider himself, do you think? I have no idea. And people create videos at every opportunity – at times that seem strange to me, but that is their right. There is nothing wrong with Tyner creating a video when being groped by TSA.
The events of 2008 (including the media’s adoration of candidate Obama and the bailouts) showed me that what matters far more than political labels is the extent to which a politician is controlled by the corporate, wealthy, and military industrial powers. Ron Paul and Kucinich agree on a bunch of issues and bills because they are not controlled by corporate forces. The 2 party system distracts Americans and pitches them against each other, while the same forces come out winners regardless of whose in power!
Is that supposed to be an improvement? I do believe you’re still trying to insult me, a Zen Buddhist who dares go by the name of knowbuddhau, with absurd attacks aimed at insulting my ego. How quaint!
Please do ponder just what the hell I must mean by my choice of name. What part of “knowbuddhau” don’t you get?
Is it the “know”? I presume you know what know means. Same goes for “u”. So it appears you don’t get the “buddha,” do you?
With much respect, I suggest you go sit on it (ie, meditate). I bow in your virtual direction.
You replied ‘yes’ (thank you), but I won’t ask which of his works you know.
Exactly!
bobbyd12:
How’s that government Kool-Aid tasting? There is a need for the Ruth Marcus types to bone-up on what knowledgeable experts are saying about these backscatter X-ray machines because the Government can’t afford to be straight with us.
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/11/fda-sidesteps-safety-concerns-over-tsa-body-scanners.ars
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/11/the_safety_question_pt2.php#more?ref=fpblg
Thanks. Perhaps the one with Joseph Paterson Bennett in it.
The English word ‘know’ fascinates me, especially that once-said hard ‘k-’ that begins it (like its cognates ‘can’ and ‘ken’). (‘Knock’ used to be a doubled ‘k’-ing, possibly to echo a double knuckle-rap on a tent mast or door post.) Maybe ‘know’ (from OE ‘cnawan’) was/is the sound you get when you rap the top of your head while your mouth is open. In pre-speech times. Do you think we developed speech-as-we-know-it (not the same as language, per se) when we domesticated dogs, to control them and discover what understanding means?
Psycho Nation for the psycho nation.
Considering that women have larger speech centers in their brains than men
and that males start speaking later than females,
and females are less likely to have speech defects, I think speech/language developed to care for children and to teach them and to get them to maturity. IOW – look to the distaff side.
— as well as getting together to make children –
So was Paul Newman.
In Reply to NCgal @ 130
It appears that it is illegal to record a search at the airport.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/nov/21/gun-crusader-strips-down-shorts-hauled-out-san-die/
Which may explain the old adage:
“Men fall in love through their eyes,women fall in love through their ears“
Elaine Morgan’s The Descent Of Woman is one of my favorite books. I tried to distinguish between language and speech in that comment. Mothers and infants murmur and coo (mama = mammal = breast-feeding = the human suckling’s sounds). I didn’t mean dogs, I mean bitches since I had a dog who wasn’t castrated and wouldn’t obey — especially when he understood.
Don’t hold your breath. They never retracted this nonsense as far as I’m aware. The Nation is perfectly happy to publish nonsense if they think it’s in our best political interests.
He wasn’t the hard-core Socialist that Doctorow has been, so I didn’t mention him. The Nation deserves bashing every five years or so, it’s like how Clemenza explained to Michael about the family wars.
Hi, the question I ask about Sarah Palin is: How could someone who has become a multi-millionaire overnight without (singing or inventing something or working on Wall Street) be an underdog in this material world?
Either way, it’s falling. Melody Gardot (singing Baby I’m A Fool): “Look me in the eye and tell me love is not insanity…”.
Everytime I go to a Dolphins game they pat you down. Every concert I have been to lately, there has been a pat down. I see no and have no problem going through the backscatter device. My comment was based on the fact that today, most other Americans had no problem with it either. It isnothing more then a minor inconvenience in my mind. Life is full of important things to worry about, IMHO, this is not one of them.
heh, interesting what you said about your dog.
Thanks for the title. I’ll read it.
I get frustrated when all the talk about human advancement centers on male activities. Women aren’t props.
A lot of us “fell’ in love back in 2008.
Some “falls” are more serious than others….s/
There are pat downs and then there are “enhanced pat downs”, as are currently being perpetrated by the TSA. Kind of like the difference between interrogation and “enhanced interrogation”. It’s a real big deal if it is simply ineffective security theater while cargo goes unscreened.
Oh, Jane, you’re just pissed because Katrina jumped on you for trying to form
an alliance with Grover Norquist. But this is the same argument. The Nation
gets bent out of shape when the leftists and the rightists try to make common
cause. Jeez, if people can’t stay on their sides, we can’t tell who are the good
guys and who are the bad guys. We’d have to examine issues instead of just
resorting to tribalism.
“After Palin says N Korea is an ally of the USA, one would think this would end her political career. NOT!!! going to happen.”
Sigh! Back when we had a relatively free press and an electorate that was not completely brain-dead, Gerald Ford lost the 1976 election because he pardoned Nixon and then sealed his fate by saying in a debate that Poland was not under Soviet domination.
That CBS poll was shilled up BS. Look at the new polls at Zogby and USA Today and you’ll see that your premise is false.
Temporary anguish. In a year or so it will be routine & second nature. Hey, I hope people revolt against it instead of accepting it as they’re apparently doing now. It would be great to have bullet trains and great railway systems everywhere.
Poor guy. He was caught in a diplomatic fuzz-off about that. The Baltic states (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia) had been subsumed by the USSR as Soviet states (I think in 1944), but the US would not ‘recognize’ the USSR’s having sovereignty over those ‘countries’. It was a real Cold War issue, countries took sides about it. So, Ford’s statement about Poland was politically correct, literally, in the broader geo-political context of ‘recognition’.
Citizen knowbuddhau:
I think it’s time you took your advice and ~~edited by mod~~…after all what would the Buddah say? But if you are really sincere in your pacifism, then certainly you can see the contradiction between bein’ anti-war and anti-troops, in this context anyway. But take my responses to you as a sign that I believe that you have enough mental ability to learn from history, your own experience or rescognize your ignorance…otherwise I wouldn’t waste my time with you…but maybe I’m wrong, after all I was wrong once last year.
~~~modnote: it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable~~~
Wow! Thanks for posting this. I’m so upset to see this level of propaganda in the Nation. Called the only number I could find to tell them they’d just broken my leftist heart. It reaches the desk of Joanne Drake, the Nation Associates connected to the Nation mag? 212-209-5427
Those TSA workers are idiots
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/taking_pictures.shtm
in the course of my labors at Rational Review News Digest, I’ve become the “progressive” watchdog for commentaries worthy of a libertarian audience. The Nation (along with In These Times, The American Prospect, Our Future Blog and some mainstream-press outlets like the Boston Globe) has been a regular choice in that quest, but I’ve learned to read carefully and avoid several of their posters entirely. Had I seen this one during my usual rounds, the only reason I’d have used it would have been to file another “editor’s note” at the end. And with the lack of ameliorating response from the Nation so far, I think they may not get as much coverage in RRND as has been the norm.
Three microbiologists and a medical doctor on faculty at UCSF beg to differ with you.
Van den Heuvel and her crew have always been ‘stablishment moutpieces, it just happens to look like opposition when the GOP is on top. This is just evolution in action – once a hack, the only way to go is down.
Best comment over there:
“I think it was dishonest for him to say that he was an ordinary American.”
Right on. I totally agree. Whatever Tyner’s failings might be, between the Tyner quotes Greenwald offers and the fact that Tyner had the balls to break the rules and record the clown show that passes as “security”, he is *nothing* like the bedwetting hysterics and unprincipled whitebreads that pass as The People in this here blighted nation.
Jane, you are absolutely right.
Mr Tyner should be applauded by all for bringing to attention the fall in our value system. When US Government starts scanning and probing private parts in the name of security when it does nothing to ensure security it is going too FAR right. If fact the right wing government in Germany in 1930s in one reads the history a bit started out doing the same stuff in the name of security and then went down the slippery slope to do the worst incidents in the whole history of humanity and creating a gold standard for humanity haters both on Far Right and Far left. We need to stop the drive to lower levels before it is too late.
Except for Private corporate Airplanes I do not have information on, I saw that only few Govt. officials are exempted.
Does congress and senate members feel okay if their privacy and their children & grand children privacy is violated in the name of security. TSA are not only doing that but also violating fourth amendment. Where is the common sense based security we used to have in the past and El-Al applies even today without affecting anybody privacy rights and which even vegas applies successfully in US right at this moment without pat-downs or privacy part scans.
Thank you, Jane, for being so rational and consistent in your principles.
I’ve never seen Glenn Greenwald referred to as Glenzilla before (I am fairly new to this site), but I hope that is meant in a supportive way. He’s one of my favorite people in the world.
I think there may be a ploy in play by the corporate-welfare-right to exploit public rage at the TSA to privatize airport security since I’ve already seen comments from sheeple at the bottom of Yahoo! articles who think (sic) that is some kind of solution. Of course it would just be another way to turn the national treasury into a corporate feedbag.
FDL, get off this. You are siding with another astro-turf T-Bagger attack on Obama.
The overwhelming majority of Americans don’t give a hoot in hell about this.
You need to worry about the coming war in Korea, and the next one in Iran.
I think FDL can handle more than one subject.
Wha????
I don’t know who you think you’re talking about at the Great Orange Satan, but I’ve never seen Laura Clawson as author of anything there. (Certainly she isn’t one of their front-page writers.)
They’re underpaid and overworked, too – at least the front-line people are. The administrators, not so much.
Exactly Right.
There is no perfect security. Just simply accept this self-evident fact and use as minimal security as commonsense tells one to do without affecting our bill of rights.
Just see a Bruce Willis movie or Steven Seagall movie.
If the hero is on the wrong side visualize how much damage they can do with just bare hands if properly trained and determined.
In the name of security if we use lose our self-dignity then it is the start of slippery slope where the machines will be applied everywhere in the name of security.
Somebody who knows even TSA might have your pictures captured with airport in-circuit cameras along with rape-scan images stored on hard drive and correlated.
That is besides the radiation issues nobody knows of. Ever heard of top-notch scientists like Mme. Curie who got Nobel Prizes and initially thought the stuff was
harmless and died later due to cancer. There is a saying Fools Rush In where Angels Fear to Tread.
Solution is simple which Las Vegas casino or El AL does on a daily basis.
Apply Common Sense with minimal security measures, Respect our Constitution and Honor our Bill of Rights and let trouble makers oversees know any violence on our country men and women will be paid back in the same coin.
Another of the many issues where “Progressives” and “Tea Partiers” agree on an issue, but can’t admit it because they’re too busy questioning the others motives. It’s interesting how often that occurs.
Regarding Sarah Palin, yeah, maybe she isn’t Presidential material. Then again, look where the geniuses we’ve been electing have taken us. And it’s not only the elected officials, it’s the advisors they employ. They all seem to have a much higher opinion of themselves than is warranted by any facts.
One thing I can say for SP – if any of the existing political class had been through one tenth of the scrutiny she’s endured, 90 percent of them would be in jail (except, of course, for the fact that they live to a different standard than the average Joe). There’s no doubt in my mind that Obama wouldn’t be president today if he had that kind of spotlight on him prior to the election.
I can understand the opinion that SP shouldn’t be President, but what I don’t understand is the vitriol directed towards her. Especially when I’d be willing to bet that a very high percentage of the people who trash her unmercifully haven’t accomplished anything close to what she’s done with her life. Maybe that’s got something to do with it. In any event, it says much more about you than it does her when you call her a moron, etc.
The Nation is GATEKEEPING GATE GATE.
There is a Thanksgiving fairy!! Tom Delay convicted.
Now, will the criminal Texas redistricting in the mid-nineties be rolled back?
I smell law suit! Someone in Texas with ‘standing’ needs to file a suit.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/24/tom-delay-guilty-money-laundering_n_788325.html
Beautifully stated. It is my new wish (and it’s relatively new as I’ve long bought into the idea that you progressives are lunatics who want to destroy America . . . until I took the time to read your posts and comments, that is) that we can find and use our common ground. As “fringe” groups, both Tea Partiers and Progressives are marginalized, by each other and the statist media. Oh sure, there are those who would use us (Obama, the GOP elite), but at rock bottom, we actually agree on a great many things/issues. It’s time, I hope, to come together and to stop being the puppets of the corporatists on both sides (look at the Millionaire Congress, how did they all get their millions? Hint: a whole new batch are being created today by the porn scanners).
Actually, fascism is rooted in Marxist thought and before that in Plato (go figure). It’s an interesting evolution, but one that is firmly on the left (and one that we are seeing manifested today in America BY the left). Think of it as the kissing cousin of communism (the way to which is via socialism according to Lenin). These are of the same family, and again, the only touches of fascism in conservative thought are in perversions of patriotism (not rabid nationalism). Again, fascism is completely incompatible with conservatism. You cannot have totalitarian control without an empowered central (federal) government. Logic must prevail here.
Wow, that’s some misreading you have here, but I’m glad you presented it, for it gives me a chance to explain. The idea that the conservative right (and I do NOT mean the GOP) seeks to regulate or control capital or people is (frankly) absurd. The point of it is just the opposite.
I am well-read in both German history and in the history of socialism/communism, so I can assure that what we are seeing unfold today is absolutely rooted in the agenda of both Germany and the Soviet Union (circa 1920′s-1940). Take a look at Lenin’s “electrification” campaign and Obama’s “greening of the economy” campaign, among a great many other things (including the use of tax payer monies to support a government-run media).
There is nothing on the right that leads to an imposition of strict controls via the law on the people. Nothing. We are against being told to wear seat belts or to buy this product (from light bulbs to health care) or that for goodness sake, do you really think that means we leave open the idea of a police state that mindlessly gropes and sexually assaults random individuals or of the shut down or complete state control of the news media? It’s the left who wants to control the media and the message, the left who seeks to dictate who eats what, buys what, uses what product. We on the right are firmly opposed to any such involvement in the daily course of our lives.
It’s not just corporate regulations (which by the way, you’d do well to research, find out just how so many dems are mult-millionaires . . . it couldn’t be through buying stock and writing laws for corporations and personal tax shelters could it?) that we reject but any attempt to legislate morality or health or fitness or anything else that the centralized, totalitarian regime we currently have wish to inflict upon us. You suggest I read about fascism, and I return the suggestion to you. Read about Lenin and the electrification of the Soviet Union, read about Hitler and how he was able, via the German constitution, to grab and amass power. Read about what exactly today’s American conservatism is and how it differs from any sense of national socialism (i.e. nazi’s). That’s a leftist movement, dear, always was.
Hi Palli, the “underdog” thing is by virtue of being victimized by the left. Unfairly demonized and marginalized by design (remember the sole and unified guiding purpose of the journolisters was to discredit her BECAUSE they saw her as the real deal and a threat. Americans were happy to line up to hate her for any number of lies: she doesn’t “believe” in AGW, evolution, or sex-ed. All patently false, but all lapped up and regurgitated by a frightened media who wanted only to instill fear in their gullible, zombie followers. It’s sad, of course, but a great many people were “played,” including progressives.). Palin cannot open her mouth without being demonized by the Alinsky-squad. For every Alinsky loser, I’d venture 2 (maybe even 3) “normal” Americans run to her side. It’s a losing strategy, but one the left seems to revel in, long past its usefulness or effectiveness, but that’s something that actually works for the right. While lefties are busy playing the politics of the past, we’ve moved on to the truth of the future. It’s fun for us, but I’m sure frustrating to your side.
You guys…
persistent, she is. And look at all those words!
* This one should be in the doggie-treat museum:
Lack of oxygen usually works well.
Palin cannot open her mouth without
being demonized by the Alinsky-squadsounding completely stoopid.There, fixed it for you, also.
Commenting (under a previous post) on Ed Schultz having defended gate rape, I wrote:
The Tyner story is an even more gruesome example. I now see what Jane means when she denounces “tribalism”. Incidentally, Glenn Greenwald’s counterattack has now been updated with a rebuttal to Ames and Levine’s attempt to defend their hit piece.