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Beyond the invasion of privacy problems caused by these x-ray-based airport security “porno scanners,” there are real health concerns. According to Dr. Michael Love, these scanners are going to give some people cancer. From Alternet.org:
“They say the risk is minimal, but statistically someone is going to get skin cancer from these X-rays,” Dr Michael Love, who runs an X-ray lab at the department of biophysics and biophysical chemistry at Johns Hopkins University school of medicine, told AFP.
“No exposure to X-ray is considered beneficial. We know X-rays are hazardous but we have a situation at the airports where people are so eager to fly that they will risk their lives in this manner,” he said.
The level of X-ray exposure from a single use of the machine is small, but if they are the primary screening technology at the airport, we are talking about millions of individuals exposed multiple times a year.
With the X-rays concentrated at the skin, it is statistically likely that some of these millions of people who travel through the machines will develop cancer. Individuals who are predisposed to cancer would be at increased risk.
It is a sad irony that in the TSA’s efforts to protect individuals from potential harm caused by terrorists, we are potentially going to give people cancer.
Since 9/11, we have had no Americans die as a result of weapons smuggled on to an airplane through an American airport using our previous screening system. The risk of dying that way is very small. Even if these backscatter x-ray scanners cause skin cancer in as few as one out of every 500,000 people, they still, in a safety cost-benefit analysis, do more harm to Americans than good.
Welcome to the warped world of security theater, where the treatment is even more dangerous to you than the disease.
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In addition to the medical harm, couldn’t this be construed as a violation of HIPPA (sp?) medical privacy?
And yes, I’ll take the 1% risk that my flight is somehow compromised, over the 100% guarantee of psychological and medical harm that my govt is subjecting me to.
Jon, you might also want to check out LA Times article (linked by rapiscan) about the FDA “approval”. And the comments by readers who feel the same way I do after having read it.
Where is the documentation?
Why were “tests” run in civilian airports like O’Hare? I’m sure they appreciated being treated as lab rats.
What are the long term consequences? Where’s the longitudinal study?
etc.
The FDA has not provided evidence of any complete study. And if they did, rapiscan should be linking to that, not some article claiming a study was done.
Thanks for the diary.
Sounds like the classic “burn down the village to save it” strategy. I feel safer already. Thanks, TSA. And thanks to Michael “Just tryin’ to make a living” Chertoff, too.
They can’t have named it RapeScan by accident.
I think they take pleasure in destroying rights, dignity, and life.
Also funny was Stewart or Colbert:
- Illegal Wars – OK
- Illegal Spying – OK
- Torture – OK
- But an image scan…. AMERICANS WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!
For the radiation – well depleted uranium plastered across a few countries is OK, but not an extra X ray for travelers. This could be a concern, but still ironic how much terrible things are allowed – and people get up in arms about this one.
If they can put you in a very embarrassing position and make you take it, they have control. If you accept it over and over they’ve won and you have lost your right to privacy. If you lose your right to privacy, you’ve lost it all because there will be no stopping them.
Jane on MSNBC right now
I’ll never go through a rapescan machine, nor will I submit to be groped by TSA employees. Good news for trains, buses and slow boats to wherever.
It won’t be a problem for me since I don’t travel any more, but the thought of a perfect stranger groping me makes me feel sick. I simply couldn’t do it.
But that’s so totally consistent with history. It’s always the tiny, innocuous seeming things that set people off and bring down empires.
Another medical hazard that I have not seen mentioned is irradiation exposure to fetuses. Fetus and children are most vulnerable to the damaging effects of irradiation. The greatest danger I think is for the fetus before the woman may be aware of pregnancy and not in a position to protect her fetus. I would suggest that all women of child bearing age give consideration to refusing the scans.
Of course it is my view that to have to have this discussion is ridiculous.
the salt in the wound is that these scanners used gazillions of dollars in “stimulous” and created one job
one
frigging
job
Apart from the principle of it being just wrong, (not to mention unConstitutional as I interpret it), it’s just creepy. Fuck that. I’ll drive three days before I submit to that kind of treatment. I’m not a criminal and I;m certainly not going to volunteer, even PAY somebody in order to be treated like one.
I have a metal hip, I wonder if that acts as some kind of antenna or magnifying medium to put me in even greater risk
I go for the grope
According to this articlethe chances of dying from cancer caused by these scanners is about the same as the chances of dying from a terrorist attack while flying. If this is true we have just doubled our risk when flying since the scanners won’t actually stop any terrorists. Brilliant!
Good point. It was the business with humble salt that brought down British rule in India.
I believe it’s external only, not penetrating.
Just don’t fly. When the airlines start losing money, this will quickly be sorted out. Petitions are useful tools but not very effective ones mostly. Money has a much stronger voice.
Much as I object to the job they’re doing, the TSA screeners who have to work near these machines are really screwed…
(Anybody who says they deserve it can go Cheney themselves. Most of them are poor, semi-trained schlubs who can’t get work elsewhere, being paid $11.50/hr to start, in a job guaranteed to rack up the karma meter.)
WAS planning on visiting my sis in cali, not going now
I want to stress that even though the FDA says the risk is extremely minimum. We are talking about increase in protection from a risk of terrorism that is basically incalculably small. Even if it results in one cancer death from every 200 million scans that is still about five cancer deaths a year in America.
btw
anyone that says these images can’t be saved is a puppet
even if it were possible to technically prohibit a save or screen capture, (it’s not), all that has to be done is point a security cam at the screen, or a cell phone
I am also told (but do not know) that the person watching the screen is in a remote room, that’s even more disturbing, you can bet there will be back room banter for each shot, it happens in the operating room, the police dept and it will happen here
And it was French Royalty giving themselves double representation at the Estates General of 1789 that led to the French revolution. It’s always the little shit. It’s almost axiomatic that the bridge too far is always an extremely short bridge.
Many people don’t have that option. Anyone who has to fly for their jobs (including pilots and flight attendants). Those who would like to see their families, but don’t have a week or more to spend getting from one coast to the other.
That said, I do have time…and was thinking about a trip from ABQ to Pittsburgh to visit family. I’m thinking now I might drive instead.
That sux. Maybe this will get sorted out sooner rather than later.
I can’t believe they will not make some kind of alternative for pilots and attendants
I mean really, if a pilot is going to bomb his plane he could just crash it instead
Man, if there was ever an opportunity for someone to come out with a cheap, reliable small aircraft for the private market…maybe that’s it! The stimulus money that bought the scanners actually stimulates the private aviation industry! Eleventy-dimensional chess!
Jon, here is a link (http://merlyn.posterous.com/chance-of-dying-from-airport-backscatter-radi that attempts to scientifically estimate the radiation risk and finds out that it is pretty close to the same risk of the terrorism they claim to be preventing.
I understand that. I’m not stupid or not cognizant of the fact that it’s not always possible. It’s important to note that people who have to fly for their jobs, (as I used to), are being paid to fly. As for pilots and flight attendants, their unions have already registered strong protests. I was just suggesting that if alternative transportation is practical, it should be considered rather than automatically buying the airline ticket.
My wife had TMJ when she was about 30 and has a titanium plate in her jaw. We have a letter from the doctor detailing the situation that she carries when we travel as she always set off the alarm on the metal detectors. There was never a problem until we were returning from Vegas a couple of weeks ago. She set off the x-ray and they did the grope on her. It all happened so fast it was a little blurry at the time but I remember thinking, ‘… what the frak was that all about?’.
I am reminded of the line by Warren Beatty in “The Parallax View.” “Don’t touch me unless you love me.” See if that gets their attention before they beging their assaults.
The read deal for me is the embarrassed spectacle of the great exceptional Americans cowering in terror submitting to such activities. Are our policies and principles not worth collective risk?
But, but, but…..this is happening to us!!
OT: Stockholm issues warrant for Assange.
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
there’s the IV Amendment…
No searches without a warrant on probable cause…
are pilots and light attendants being rape scanned when they report for work? and (honestly) how many people “have to” fly? For those people who (honestly) have to fly, and have no other alternative ( even one that is less convenient) then the rest of us boycotting flying will only help.
That’s what that blessed document says and we should stand up and be counted.
Yes they are being either scanned or if they object, they are being groped. Just like the rest of us. And the idiocy of that is stupendous since they’re already being entrusted to fly the damn planes.
Sweden has alkways been a secret appendage of the worst excesses of US foreign operations. Think back to the “Russian submarine” the Swedish Navy crippled off their coast. A few of their own military brass who had loyalty conflicts in many ways similar to the 51state, dual nationals that pollute the US establishment, decided to intervene. It went further than that later. A prime minister was shot dead in the street and as if nby magic, no one had a clue who did it. My guess is this shit starts in various university fraternities in both countries. Evidently, the same disgusting strings can still be pulled today.
Giving cancer to a nation with no health care. do you think our elected representatives care.
@It is a sad irony that in the TSA’s efforts to protect individuals from potential harm caused by terrorists, we are potentially going to give people cancer.
my sketchy filter sees it as predators building future markets /another form of front running.
Yep, that’s how I interpret it too. And to arrest and fine somebody for refusing a search, even if they’re trying to leave is in direct conflict with the spirit and the letter of the fourth. The search itself could be considered allowable as nobody in government is compelling that person to board and fly.
WTF does flight crew need to smuggle weapons or explosives on board for? Air crew could do a hell of a lot more damage with the kinetic energy of a functioning aircraft than they could by blowing one up.
Fucking idiots!
That makes it unconstitutional and therefore illegal. But, no problem, because apparently the USA is lawless. Either there are laws, or there aren’t. Either you follow the law, or you don’t.
It’s quite obvious that laws are only for “the little people”. I could go on a rant about the US government breaking a whole lotta laws itself, (like the V amendment, habeus corpus etc) but I’d be tilting at windmills.
Apparently, I’m one of those loonies who believes in the law and justice being applied to everyone equally. How 20th century of me…
Well, there was a guy arrested for Palme’s murder, but it was overturned. The leading theory is that it was his criticism of S. Africa that led to his murder. I went down to the intersection a month ago to touch the stones.
I was hoping for some changes at the FDA during the last two years. It seems there is none. The FDA does not protect the people who pay them. The FDA is an appendage of the Oil industry and it protects the polluters. Now they are protecting the Death Ray Machine makers.
Just get rid of the FDA, it does nothing.
Well, how about we go the whole hog and install scanners and searchers at bus-stops, restaurants, shopping malls, etc. Anyplace that a terrorist might act. Would that be reasonable? NO!
How about the Murrah building in Okie? No one went in there with a bomb, but a hell of a mess was made and lives were lost. Do we now have to scan vehicles parked outside? I’m not yelling at you Margaret, I’m just as mad as hell. There’s no END to this farce, just keep cowing the people till we’re all good little robots.
in response to Margaret # 42.
First or 4th what difference it makes ? these guys are vandalizing the constitution anyway. The right wing S.court is their partner.
Also, if you dont fly, the air lines will loose money. True. But there will be a bailout waiting for them. Remember after 9-11, how the airlines were “helped” by tax payers money.
Whew! I’m glad you put that in there! I was becoming increasingly shocked, dismayed and a little frightened. I was just trying to figure out how anybody could have gotten the idea that I would support, let alone defend these abominable invasions.
And maybe you should spend some time lurking and getting to know the community before you start making assumptions about what I believe. You’re preaching to the choir. BIG time. Just a respectful suggestion.
I always tried to be properly dressed when flying but I guess people now should rush over to Victoria’s Secret and get something uplifting since they can see your undies along with everything else.
Margaret, I’ve read MANY of your posts and KNOW that you’re very level headed and I mostly agree with everything you say. I guess you could say I was striking sparks of of your comments. What the TSA is doing is unconscionable and illegal, all under the aegis of “keeping Americans safe”.
It’s all bullshit. The government doesn’t give two shits about the people.
If they DID, we’d HAVE universal health care and Wall St in fucking jail.
Well that’s the thing, isn’t it? This is potentially step one: increasing the invasion of privacy at the airports. So we say: boycott flying. Fine. Then what?
They’re already checking IDs to get on most trains in the USA. What’s stop ‘em from installng rape-cancer machines at train stations? Or at sporting events? Or at bus stations? OR, etc… Think it won’t happen?? Why not? If Chertoff can make money from it, why stop w/TSA at airports?
Seriously… it’s come down to this, so where are you gonna draw the line in the sand? Boycotting flying is all very well, and may be a good idea. But that’s only a band-aid, imo. We need to go after this in a bigger way. Just my 2 cents worth.
Agreed with all of that. Emphatically. Some days I’m too disgusted for words.
I’d go more in favor of: regroup the FDA and turn it BACK into the fully functioning regulatory agency it once was. The FDA has done really good work in the past, and I’d like to think it still does some good.
That said, I agree that, like most gov’t agencies since Bushco, the FDA is certainly going to be willing to go along with the PTB in their never-ending greed quest to rip off citizens wherever possible.
If this rape-cancer scam machine begins to wake up conservatives to the rip off happening with the govt – and getting them away from the stupidity of Dems v Reps – I’ll be very happy. One can only hope that this wakes up some of the population to the massive rip off going on.
Hey, as long as Skeletor is getting rich wtf do they care about the little people? Plus more cancer + mandatory private insurance = big bucks for big pharma I can’t help but think.
That was misspeaking. The FDA does not protect taxpayers. It does protect the corporations who pay for phony reports that the FDA adopts. Some of the FDA scientists are phony chemical company shills who do take bribes from corporations.
I think the FDA might require some investigating because it seems as corrupt as during the Bushie years. Oh then some Administration flack will say, “Our hands are tied, we can only do so much.”
“Since 9/11, we have had no Americans die as a result of weapons smuggled on to an airplane through an American airport using our previous screening system.”
And on 9/11 we had no Americans die as a result of weapons smuggled onto airplanes. I went over all this yesterday in a different thread about the TSA rape scanners.
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/11/17/tsa-administrator-acknowledges-invasive-pat-downs-screeners/
Come on FDL, do a little investigative journalism OK? Instead of taking the lazy route and accepting the bullshit at face value and simply trying to argue against it from the right wing’s home court. An afternoon’s worth of examination of the details of this mess would very quickly and easily reveal that the foundational myth for all this intrusion, mainstreaming of police state measures and wars of aggression is a pack of lies whose details are so far-fetched (with some being downright impossible) that a child could see through it. You do us no favors FDL by giving lip service to the right wing’s mythology.
I hope you’re right. Again, it seems like it’s always the little things that get people wound up and woken up
Gotta go do my workout. I think I still still do that without getting a license or getting grope raped…
Laters.
This isn’t MY America, I’m 59 Y/O and have seen it destroyed by the oligarchs.
Bread and Circuses baby, Bread and Circuses. Keep em dumb, keep em from starving (mostly) and distract them from how much they’re being fucked by the rich. Hell, I’m starting to sound like George Carlin!
Obama’s done nothing to clean up the agencies, which were deliberately destroyed with insider hacks during Bushco. Your commentary is correct.
Just to add fuel to your fire, if the govt cared, they would force screenings of cargo regardless of the cost, but Nooooo!
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/shippers-fought-full-screening-cargo-pla
Stop bashing FDL.
I hear you. Frankly, I want MY country back, but I’m not saying that in the Tea Party parlance… I’m speaking about the times when the super wealthy were taxed fairly, and where being a rude nasty bully was considered “bad form.” The days where the rule of law was adhered to, and people spoke about the Constitution with real knowledge. Well, I could go on, but you get the picture.
This nation has been run into the ground… and the rubes keep hollering for more bread & circuses. It’s really frightening some days.
Well it’s kinda hard not to when FDL mouths the same bullshit myths that help keep people in the dark about what is going on around them when even a cursory examination of the details would show how fake it is. And who made you the FDL thread police anyway?
Yeah, a point I’ve made numerous times over the years since 911. All business travelers who fly frequently know that the TSA screenings are little more than a joke… a sop to the public to make them *think* that “something real” is happening. The lack of screening for cargo and baggage is of *real concern,* but Chertoff, I guess, can’t make a quick buck off of that… so don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
Load of b.s.
I read your post, and for what it’s worth, I found it off-putting by the way that you wrote it. It’s my opinion, but I think you could be me more instructive by not putting things quite so harshly. I think most at FDL aren’t “buying into rightwing mythology” at all.
State your case clearly and with respect, and it’s my opinion that more will be informed. Just my 2 cents worth. whatever…
I wasn’t speaking directly to all of FDL’s readers. I was speaking directly to the FDL blog writers who never seem to get around to finding the courage to look into this matter.
I just didn’t know what he was referring to specifically. Seemed like a blanket statement.
Perhaps you’d do better by sending an email directly to a blog writer that you want to inform. Otherwise, it seems like you’re “yelling” at everyone (or, at least, that’s how it seems to me). A suggestion.
I’m not really even sure what you’re getting at, quite honestly, but now I gotta go… back to work.
I think I made it pretty clear what I was referring to especially considering I provided a link to a thread where I explained the complete falsity of the 9/11 myth yesterday, a myth which is constantly invoked by the reactionaries to justify this or that latest intrusion. By the “right wing’s mythology” I was specifically referring to the 9/11 fairy tale. Let me be perfectly clear: 9/11 was such a blatant false flag operation that anyone who made it through elementary school who bothers to look into its details should have no problem figuring it out. FDL’s blog writers do us no favors by endlessly repeating the “nineteen hijackers with boxcutters” myth instead of taking an afternoon to actually look into the matter and put 2 and 2 together. Clear enough?
You ought to just do it yourself.
When I say “Come on FDL, do a little investigative journalism OK?” I think that’s pretty obvious that I am not yelling at the multitude of people who read this blog but rather at the blog’s writers. I don’t see the reason for confusion there, sorry.
Especially considering that the quote that I referenced at the beginning of my post was a quote directly from this article. Again, not sure how this could be confusing people.
I see your point now re the myth. But agree with onitgoes that the harsh tone is offputting. sorry.
I’m not sure what you mean here. Did no Americans die? Or are box-cutters not weapons?
I get your whole 9/11 conspiracy theory. Before responding to this I went into the thread from yesterday and read all of your comments. I think some very fishy shit happened in the weeks leading up to 9/11. I also think there are logical explanations for most of those things. There is hard evidence that weird stuff happened. There isn’t any hard evidence that someone did these things deliberately to start a war.
What you’re saying in the longest of your comments, when citing all of the conspicuous events leading up to and on 9/11, is basically tantamount to saying “Boehner’s penis hangs to the left, he must be a democrat!”
It doesn’t hold water, especially when you’re uber-agro about it. If you want to rationally discuss the events of 9/11, there are discussion boards for that. Start a diary here, linking to all the things you talked about. I’m sure ghostof911 would be happy to join you. I’m incredibly interested in the subject, too. I’d be grateful for a diary. But shouting at the moderators and bloggers that FDL isn’t doing its job is just shitty.
p.s. – if you can kill someone with it, it’s a weapon.
calling FDL writers/frontpagers “lazy” doesn’t entice to read further either. I also don’t follow one commenter’s arguments from thread to thread. You did more work than I did. Call me lazy. :)
And isn’t it “convenient” that printer cartridge bombs were aboard cargo planes that flew out of Yemen, “Justifying” the US military to set up operations there…
bullshit
time to
scroll
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I wouldn’t call you lazy, I’d call you smart. I actually wanted to do the guy a service and read his comments before I gave my opinion.
provide the links to your sources so we too can become ~~~Edtied by Moderator. No name calling.~~~ like you.. inquiring minds want to know…..
Yeah, just stay asleep and enjoy being raped by the big corporations that have you and the rest of this country by the balls. Just ignore it and enjoy your fantasy world.
I tweeted this story three times… once just plain, also to @BarackObama, and with the #tcot and #page2 hashtags.
Nobody hijacked anything that day with boxcutters or pen knives or a sharpened spoon or a set of car keys waved aggressively. Read my posts on the thread I linked to and it explains the myth.
How is running around yelling “9/11″ like Rudy Giuliani keeping you from being raped by corporate America?
So you’re saying those folks in 93 were lying to their loved ones? Or are you saying there were no folks on 93 and all the recorded voice messages were faked and the people trotted in front of the camera were lying?
It’s called dissent. And those who oppose it always say it is inappropriate.
Had you been around here you might have learned by now that the commentators here are some of the best educated and informed people on the internet.
Here is the latest TSA logger Bob Update, correcting all those false narratives. No one is exempt, except corporations who are superior to human beings.
Oh great, my comment with several links and a ton of information is now “awaiting moderator approval”. Hopefully sometime next year it will be approved.
~~~Mod Note: There are limits to the number of links in comments which is why both of your attempts have gone to moderation. Repeating the same thing, is not going to change that issue. Better to take the lengthy comment with links and create a diary~~~
So you’re saying that a Boeing 757 can disappear leaving nothing but a crater in the ground, completely vaporizing itself but leaving intact a “hijacker’s” bandanna, passport, youth hostel card and pen knife so they can be used as evidence? Supposedly fished out of the crater? To be used as “evidence” in the Zacharias Moussaui trial? If you believe that one then I have a nice bridge to sell you.
So much for the video making the rounds where they groped three year old
Yes. An invasive pat down.
No it does not make “good security sense.” The backscatter Xray does not do anything more than play as security theater and the actual people doing the “pat downs” have precisely been using it as a punishment, regardless of what the DHS people are saying.
Do you expect him to say anything differently? You are awfully credulous on this issue.
Suddenly we’re supposed to trust the FDA on this? Where’s the studies?
And I see you’re not responding to the investigation of Mr Tyner for refusing both the backscatter and the pat down but chose to (attempt) to leave the airport and not fly
Really I lost a dear friend’s daughter on that flight, our families went camping with them for years…
They also found a license that belonged to the you lady I lost that day… That is all they got back of her.
And how do I create a diary? Sorry but the simplest thing would be just to post the comments on this thread since they are in response to Nahant who demanded to see links.
And any idea as to where the 255,000 lbs. of airplane disappeared to? Or why a plane that can hold over 200 passengers was allegedly flying cross country with less than 50 passengers? Please try using your head.
Go to myfdl and RTFM you seem like a quick learner..
Oh I have as I said I have a personal stake in that day!
Airlines especially pre 911 frequently flew near empty planes just to get them to their next location to have them in place ya know logistics… I have across the country several times with them way less that 1/4 full.
Silly troll. None of us here can afford a bridge.
As for believing that, no, I don’t really. I think that evidence was manufactured. I do believe that a 757 can be essentially vaporized on impact at the speeds a 757 is capable of travelling. I also know that fire can do some very odd things. They can burn buildings to the ground and leave the one next door untouched. We don’t know what happened that day, that’s the point. Belittling the writers here for itterating the logical explanation is pointless. No one knows, and I doubt we ever will.
Just reading through the comments, so if this has been pointed out already, I apologize for the duplication.
- Illegal Wars – Not here.
- Illegal Spying – Not visible.
- Torture – Not here and not visible.
- But an image scan ===> Here, visible and my child will be either groped or radiated if my child must fly.
I imagine having to show papers to the SS bothered German citizens in WWII, as well. It touches me. It scans me. It is hard evidence of our police state, no longer nascent.
The tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breath free thought this place was the fabled United States of America. It’s not. It’s a mirage with all of the bureaucracy Soviet Union carefully blended with every bit of the cold, torturous efficiency of Nazi Germany, rolled into one delicious candy treat, marketed on Fox and sold on eBay. Established 12:30 p.m. Central Standard Time on November 22, 1963. New and improved!
When will immigrants be rounded up into concentration camps, I wonder? It’s all their fault, right? Those bastard brown-skinned immigrant terrorist maids! You can easily see though their clever disguises; just ask the governor of Arizona.
I wonder what will happen when some bean counter discovers there are untapped profits for the domestic natural gas industry in fueling perhaps, oh, say hundreds of large ovens scattered all about the countryside, with adjoining prison/labor camps.
[Slaps forehead] Silly me!
The President of the day will pin a medal on that man, reminding citizens how much safer their streets are, and how much more money is in their pockets, since the brown menace was neutralized for the glory of the Homeland!
Sig Heil, Herr Bush! Sig Heil, Herr Obama! Sig Heil!
I’m lobbying congress for a new national motto: “War pigs. Because we’ve nothing else to sell.”
All glory to the IMF. Sig Heil!
It’s “breathe,” I know. This keyboard has several broken keys. Literally. Long story.
Repeating myself (and several others here), I beg you to fix the javascript so the timer on “Edit” is longer then the frequency of a wave with a wavelength of the Planck constant. If you don’t get that, get this:
It doesn’t work, period, in multiple browsers. If you need me to write a fix, I’d be happy to. This is ridiculous.
http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2010/05/17/concern.pdf
Report from a group at the University of California San Fransisco sent to Dr. Holdren: the science and technology assistant to the President. This was sent April 2010.
Oh, but we do, to an extent. It is impossible for a building to free-fall into its footprint without explosives.
Three buildings did that on 9/11/2001.
It is impossible for kerosine to collapse steel and concrete structures. Only 3 buildings in history are alleged to have fallen because of kerosine. All of them were at WTC on 9/11/2001.
The buildings were rigged to be pulled. Records were destroyed, gold was stolen, the Constitution was replaced by the gigantic, pre-written so-called Patriot Act and an all-invasive security state was established. Two wars were begun.
FOLLOW THE MONEY, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The MSM never refers to it as 9/11/2001. It’s just 9/11. As if there were no events prior to it. Revisionist history began then. It’s a divine number.
We do know what happened. Americans are too timid to confront their police state, so they act out of fear. Fearful little mice, terrified of their government they imagine is ruled by the Constitution.
“It’s just a piece of paper.” – THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!
The designed events of September 11, 2001 were collectively a false-flag event designed to impel a cowardly public to do the bidding of strongmen. Dictators. Bankers. Despicable men whose enormous wealth, generated at our expense, empowers them to act as if they were gods to the rest of us.
There was an attack on 9/11/2001, to be sure. Thanks to the joint efforts of the Bush and Bin Laden families, in concert with the bankers who’ve wanted this forever, the Constitution is dead. Someone should run right out pin a Medal of Freedom on one of them!
I didn’t know kerosene was jet fuel.
That’s scary. Very scary. A relevant passage for the non-clickers:
Cancer machines. Can’t wait to be scanned, can you? So you’ll accept sexual molestation by TSA agents instead?
From wikipedia:
Point the first: Wiki is not really what most would call all that credible a reference
Point the second: JP4 or any other jet fuel is far from being garden variety kerosene.
and there was tons of JP4 on board, the planes were supposed to cross the country ya know..
From wikipedia:
From wikipedia:
From T.C. Forensic:
and from the same:
And here’s the important part!
Now, if the concrete was melted and the steel had lost 50% of its structural integrity and was sagging, it’s perfectly reasonable to believe the building could collapse under its own weight, right?
Let me clarify here. Simplify, if you will.
Concrete burns at or above 300F. Steel burns at or above 450F (for the most fire resistant type listed in my post above). Steel loses 50% of its structural integrity and sags at 550F.
Kerosene-type jet fuel burns, open air, without additional fuel sources, at 549.5F.
How about when fanned by the incoming air.. Seems to me there was fire roaring for over an hour before collapse.
also all the interior decorations, plain old office furniture and such… shit I can get my wood burner stove hot enough to turn steel yellow in color..
Exactly. It’s physically possible, even probable. When you factor in that fire feeds itself (strenght and temp-wise) when there is ample oxygen and burnable material, it seems like a no-brainer.
I was just responding to the portion of patrickhenrypress @105
From the evil, not to be trusted, spawn of Satan themselves, those ignorant engineers who don’t know a damn thing about concrete, steel, kerosene or demolition.
It was a false-flag operation designed to allow the nation to be overthrown from within. A silent coup. The Patriot Act is the Constitution. Examine, please, the powers vested in the President. The three branches of government, and all industry and commerce, come under the control of one man.
That IS a dictatorship.
The law WAS passed overwhelmingly.
Ergo, we are living in a DICTATORSHIP. The Republican/Democrat moral duality puppet show notwithstanding.
You imagine, I suppose, that the Patriot Act was given to Moses by The Lorrrrrduh Thy Gawwwwd?
Sorry. It was written by totalitarians, at the behest of our creditors, who own us. We are their enemy. The act has little to do with terrorism and everything to do with subjugating the American people.
The buildings were brought down by controlled demolition. The buildings were wired with explosives. The evidence was shipped off to our now-great creditor, China, for destruction.
The perpetrators and their cohorts are publicly affixing to themselves the finest of medals. For them, this is no recession. This is a gold rush. This is heaven on earth. Free at last! No laws to stop them from raping, stealing, extorting or crushing men or nations.
It’s all about money. FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!! The engineers cited above aren’t the ones reaping obscene profits from this. Who is?
When the truth of 9/11 and global warming becomes more stark, there will be no place on earth safe for Americans. So, Vote Conservative! To the glorious future for the Homeland! As the U.S.S.R. and NAZI Germany were, so Amerikkka shall be! With a propaganda machine to die for. Or because of.
So far, the Fed is holding rates at or near 0%. When that changes, here comes the inflation. People will die fighting over trash to eat. Despised the world over and eating garbage to survive. Who wouldn’t beg for a powerful strongman to free them from the barbarians at the gate, abandoning the remaining shreds of democracy and the tattered remaining bits of the Constitution ground under their boot heels for “Peace and Security.”
Bravo, for-profit enhanced security state! Bravo! The chumps still argue the lies while the profits amass to the heavens themselves.
Nahant, why do you think the NYFD tapes were kept from the public for years? That would be because they have the firefighters in the South Tower making their last transmissions saying that there were just two isolated pockets of fire that could be knocked down with two firehoses. Then the South Tower “collapses”. Why? Because the planners of 9/11 knew they were about to lose their excuse for the “collapses” if the firemen had already put the fires out. Hence the “collapse” (implosion) of the South Tower, the one that was hit second and burned for less time.
By the way I finished my diary and posted it. Not sure where it will turn up but it’s in the hands of the moderators now I suppose. I apologize for its considerable length but the official 9/11 fairy tale has such a godawful amount of gaping holes in it that it takes quite a lengthy deconstruction of it to cover the more prominent ones.
Not perfectly reasonable to assume it will “collapse” at freefall rate in air as the N.I.S.T. and the 9/11 whitewash Commission both admitted. Think about this for a moment OK? Freefall rate in air, meaning the uppermost stories were passing into and THROUGH the remaining solid majority of skyscraper as quickly, meaning as EASILY, as falling through air. When was the last time you saw a car accident avoided because the cars passed harmlessly through each other? In the real world the only way that the uppermost floors could “fall” through the solid remainder of the building as easily as falling through air is if something (explosives) disintegrated it to the degree that it was offering no more resistance than air. The Twin Towers and WTC-7 were obviously controlled demolitions.
I should also note that the buildings didn’t fall because of kerosene. They fell because they were hit by fucking AIRPLANES travelling in excess of 300MPH (I believe that’s the number), then burned for an extended period of time.
So instead of promulgating falsehoods, why not buy yourself a comparable structure, insure the hell out of your private jet, and plow it into your investment to see if it collapses into its own footprint from the fire alone?
Buildings are cheap in this recession. You’d be paid handsomely for the televised spectacle.
Prove it.
I dare you to try. There’s a big planet out there. Pick a spot. And when you succeed, let the Pentagon know they’ve been wasting money on explosives for all these years. They can just fly a drone into a skyscraper and everyone will be helpless to save it!
Yuri is wise!
There is much to learn!
None of that has anything to do with the Twin Towers. Building 7 wasn’t hit by a plane, therefore it’s demolition/collapse is irrelevant regarding the facts I pointed out. We were talking about jet fuel, not the building down the street.
We do I need to. The science supports history. I’m citing science, you’re citing sources.
I look forward to reading it :) I do believe some very sinister shit happened that day, and our government was responsible for a lot of it. I think we just vary on our beliefs in the degree of government involvement.
They were designed to be able to withstand “fucking airplanes” flying into them faster than Boeing-757s. The WTC’s Construction manager, Frank DeMartini made comments about the building’s potential to withstand multiple impacts and he said the effect would have been similar to “sticking a pencil through mosquito netting”. But NIST fails to recognize Mr. Martini’s remarks at all.” http://stj911.org/ryan/NIST_Responses.html The quote was from an interview with DeMartini in 1993 in which he said “The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door — this intense grid — and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting.” http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html#ref6 Bear in mind a FULLY (fuel) LOADED Boeing 707, not the half-empty 767s accused of crashing into them on 9/11. In fact, the Towers were each designed to withstand the impact of at least one Boeing 707, with Chicago engineer Joseph Burns saying “I designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it.” http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/analysis/medserv_collapseshocks.html Before anyone says “But they were hit by -767s” it must be mentioned that the -707 is only slightly smaller than a -767, and travels considerably faster, the length being 153 feet versus 159 and the wingspan being 146 feet instead of 156. The speed of the -707 is 607 mph versus the slower -767 at 530 mph. http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html (The information there was lifted directly from FEMA’s report at): http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch1.pdf So common sense tells you that a 707 going 607 mph is going to do somewhat more damage than a 767 going 530 mph. If it would have easily withstood fully-loaded 707s then it would have easily withstood 767s with half-empty tanks. The Towers were highly redundant structures and an MIT scientist even is quoted as saying: “the World Trade Center was probably one of the more resistant tall building structures,” McNamara said, adding that “nowadays, they just don’t build them as tough as the World Trade Center.” http://www.public-action.com/911/jmcm/sciam/
That first sentence was meant to read “Why do I need to?”
I miss edit.
Where exactly does science tell you that solid things can fall through other solid things without even being slowed down by anything beyond air resistance?
I’ll read your cited sources here, and your diary. This is the kind of information and reference I was asking for earlier. Thank you.
These were highly redundant structures. Engineering News Record stated in 1964 that: “A design procedure that will be used for structural framing of the 1,350-ft high twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City gives the exterior columns tremendous reserve strength. Live loads on these columns can be increased more than 2,000% before failure occurs.” http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/eng-news-record.htm
You’re most welcome.
Well, my (admittedly basic) understanding of physics would lead me to believe that extreme weight, travelling downward around a central point, would gain momentum, and cause a domino effect of destruction on the points below. As these points were also destroyed, they would add to the weight and momentum of the downward collapse around the central point. As the main supports for the building were located in the center, this seems to be feasible.
I understand there would be loss of energy and momentum as the ruins from above struck the floor below, but I don’t see how this can’t be explained by the contributing/countering factors of weakened support from impact/fire damage, gravity and weight.
And if you see my diary please let me know where it is. I can’t find the damned thing.
That is very telling information. I think that is the best support for your argument thus far.
Thanks! Of course, those buildings were not demolished. See:
All 3 buildings were demolished by explosives placed inside the buildings prior to the events of that day.
It was an event designed to destroy the annoying Constitution and its rights. You love this? You must love the Rothschilds. It’s their wet dream coming to life.
One world government ruled by a wealthy aristocracy.
Gosh. When you think about it, if you knew that was coming to pass, you could thumb your nose at the law, couldn’t you? Especially if the three branches of government are dominated by your aristocratic peers, and you’re the President.
Let’s look forward, not back.
GHWB is a hero.
I don’t spend much time on Bin Laden.
It’s just a piece of paper.
You should be able to find it through the “MyFDL” link at the top right of this page. Or by clicking on your name and clicking on “my diary” in your profile.
In addition to banning these health damaging scanners, what really needs to be investigated is the role played by Mr. Michael Chertoff (former Homeland Secretary) and his commercial interests. He is representing the makers of scanners (rapiscansystems.com) and using his government contacts to sell these evil devices while jeopardizing health of innocent people.
Another important issue is Chertoff (apparently, who is also Israeli citizen) and Israeli connections behind this scanners. Is any part of these machines manufactured in Israel or Do Israelis’ have any commercial or ownership interests in the manufacturing or vending of these machines? If it is so, it is shame on our politicians to sacrifice Americans for the benefit of Israel again and again.
BELOW IS SOME INFORMATION on Chertoff and the scanners:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=21746
The full body scanners are manufactured by Rapiscan Systems, a firm represented by the Chertoff Group. The Chertoff Group is Michael Chertoff, a dual Israeli/US citizen appointed Secretary of Homeland Security in 2005 by Puppet President George W. Bush. The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) used Obama’s economic stimulus, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, to purchase 150 Rapiscan machines. Much larger purchases are in the works.
Chertoff has been a federal judge on the US Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit and a federal prosecutor who convicted and destroyed the Arthur Andersen accounting firm, apparently illegally as the conviction was overturned by the US Supreme Court. But, of course, the firm and the careers of its employees were already destroyed by Chertoff.
Chertoff was also appointed Assistant Attorney General of the Department of Justice by George W. Bush. Chertoff supervised the 9/11 investigation or non-investigation.
Chertoff is also the co-author of the USA PATRIOT Act, a piece of fascist legislation that destroys American civil liberties.
Today Chertoff is using his government credentials to push full body scanners into American airports. A rights group, FlyersRights.org, has criticized Chertoff for abusing “the trust the public has placed in him as a former public servant to privately gain from the sale of full-body scanners.”
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2010/01/02/group_slams_chertoff_on_scanner_promotion/
I just found it.
http://my.firedoglake.com/brutaltruth/
The “main supports” for the building weren’t all that was holding it up. There were 47 enormous core columns (around the center of the building) plus over two hundred perimeter columns. Please realize that accepting the official myth’s explanation means accepting the ridiculous notion that all 47 and all 200+ perimeter columns failed simultaneously throughout their entire length. Which still doesn’t begin to explain how as I noted the uppermost floors are accused of falling THROUGH the remaining scores of stories below them without encountering any resistance at all beyond air resistance. In other words if they were crashing down into dozens of stories of jell-o or butter or water they would have encountered more resistance to slow or stop their fall. This is a common sense issue when one thinks about it really. Solid things. Air. Only with demolition charges disintegrating the remainder of the building is this feat possible in the real world.
I think you’re taking this (discussion) a little too personally, friend. I believe our government killed Americans that day, I believe they did it knowingly by ignoring the warnings, so that they could further their thirst for war.
I just don’t think they collapsed those buildings in controlled demolition.
Thanks, I’ll check it out.
Wow they had to turn so much of it into tiny fonts and italics that I don’t think anybody will ever read it. Maybe if someone wants to read it they can copy it and paste it to their own wordpad program on their computer and blow up the size of the fonts, just a suggestion. I had no idea it would be in such small typeset. Anyway it’s up there in case anyone wants to read it.
Typo, I meant to say “They were designed to be able to withstand “fucking airplanes” flying into them faster than Boeing-767s” not Boeing-757s.
They count on your disbelief, trust me. As the son of someone who was very active in politics – the people who did this are only concerned about the end result, not the means.
They were controlled demolitions designed to scare the hell out of the public and congress. The Patriot Act was passed WITHOUT READING IT and was written WELL IN ADVANCE of the events of 9/11/2001.
When confused, ask yourself, “Who profited from this?” It wasn’t the public.
In San Jose, CA., the city government is strong-arming everyone. All pensions are being rewritten. All benefits are being cut. All in the name of “we have no money.” Conservatives now get to gut social programs they detest because of a recession whose free-fall, much like the buildings themselves that fell, was triggered by they themselves.
It’s as if we are indebted to the fascists at the IMF.
A massive crime was committed and the perpetrators hope everyone looks forward, not back. After all, as President Bush said, the Constitution he swore a mighty oath to defend, is “just another piece of paper.”
Follow the money.
I’ve been wondering if that’s part of the plan.
To all of you 9/11 conspiracy theorists:
Go take engineering classes. You’ll need statics and properties of materials, at a minimum. Dynamics helps, too. Then you can start to understand how much one of those towers actually weighs, and why taking out some of the major structural supports could make the whole thing collapse, without invoking Secret and Invisible Government Activities. (Do you really think that explosives could have been planted without anyone in the building, including the cleaning and security crews, noticing?)
You can also try building a (not very accurate) model. Use frozen ice cream (or even just ice)for the pillar, with a plate holding a brick on top. Set a glass of hot water next to one or two of the pillars.
Congressman RON PAUL is mad as hell about the airport scanners and touching & fondling of your private junk at the airport. He has introduced a legislation in the House – the American Traveler Dignity Act.
Watch the video, he makes sense:
VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-N5adYM7Kw&feature=player_embedded
Break the diary up into a series for easier reading by others. Just a thought.
Rape-cancer machines. That’s a good one. Boy are we ever seeing 2 classic paranoias on display here. 1) Puritanical freak out over the exposition of the human body. Rape! Rape!Rape! My body is going to be viewed by someone else! Oh the horror of it! My sacred boobies will be seen by a stranger! RAPE!!!! RAPE!!!
People Please. These are supposed to be Progressives? Shit none of you would last 10 secs on some of the communes I was on in the old days and on half the beaches in Europe. Grow up.
2) Radiation. In all likelihood none of you has a thing to worry about. I on the other hand, having spent the last 28 years in and around radiation, DO have some reason for concern as radiation is cumulative. I have even refused x-rays at the dentist when I felt it was unnecessary. Although I have not seen the specs for the amount and characteristics of this particular x-ray tube, my sense is that it is a fairly run of the mill arrangement with low level radiation necessary to penetrate cloth and unless you are wearing lead clothes, that ain’t much.
I AM concerned that it encompasses the entire body and YES if you are a frequent flyer that could be a bit too much exposure. I would be most concerned about exposure to the eyes and thymus. I also believe that young women should have their gonadal regions (the ovaries) sheilded by a lead belt about 6 inches wide.
Leaded glasses should be made available to everyone, no exceptions. This should be a handleable situation and all this freaking out is just not helpful. One airliner blowing up in mid flight will quiet a lot of the hysteria.
Liberal pansies! We invaded Iraq to protect the ‘Homeland’ and all you guys did was piss and moan!
Ungrateful idiots!
•••••
Leftists freaks! We spied on Peace-Fresno and the Quakers because there’s a subversive Pinko lurking inside each and every one… and you went to court!
How dare you!
•••••
Commie-symps! We listened in on your phone calls and monitored your email traffic because you never know who is Osama’s friend… and besides, if you don’t have anything to hide, why should you object?
Friggin igrates!
•••••
Wimps! We radiated you and felt you up and terrified your children because we didn’t want to spend the money and exert the effort training screeners like the Israelis do!
Where are your papers?!?
To which Americans rightfully say: Go straight to Hell.