According to the latest WSJ/NBC poll, the health care bill is “particularly unpopular in the districts that matter most in the Republicans’ effort to retake the House”:
According to the latest Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, 52% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for a candidate who wanted to give the health law a chance to work and then make changes to it as needed, while 45% said they would be more likely to vote for a candidate who wanted to repeal the law entirely and start over.
But in the 92 House districts considered most competitive, that support flipped, with 42% voting for the candidate who wanted to keep the law and 55% voting for the candidate who wanted it repealed.
Josh Kraushaar argues that Democrats who opposed the bill are doing better in conservative districts than those who supported it:
[P]olling recently commissioned by the National Republican Congressional Committee in 65 of the most competitive congressional seats held by Democrats provides more. When participants were asked an open-ended question about what gives them the biggest pause about voting for their sitting member of Congress, a solid plurality said it was health care – ahead of the economy and jobs. In a follow-up focus group in Erie, Pa., with some of the poll’s participants, one of the organizers said it was striking to see how many women’s votes were driven by health care. Some came to the focus group reciting chapter and verse the provisions of the law they didn’t like. Many said they were Obama supporters in 2008, but the more they heard about the health care bill, the more frustrated they became.
The surprisingly strong opposition from women may explain why the latest NYT/CBS poll finds that the GOP has “wiped out the advantage held by Democrats in recent election cycles among women”:
If women choose Republicans over Democrats in House races on Tuesday, it will be the first time they have done so since exit polls began tracking the breakdown in 1982.
For those who weren’t following the contretemps at the time, FDL did polling in January of this year about the opposition in swing districts to the health care bill. We used SurveyUSA, a polling firm with one of the most accurate track records in recent years, and they wrote the questions and determined the methodology (as they always d0, contractually):
- SurveyUSA/Firedoglake Poll: OH-01
- SurveyUSA/Firedoglake Poll: AR-02
- SurveyUSA/Firedoglake Poll: IN-09
- SurveyUSA/Firedoglake Poll: NY-01
The results were indisputable: if these members of Congress were forced to vote for the health care bill as-is, their election prospects were in serious jeopardy.
The DCCC, whose internal polling no doubt showed the same thing, went on the offensive to try and discredit the poll. There were any number of people anxious to help them.
Is this supposed to be an impressive finding? If anything, it suggests that the downside to Republican argumentation about the mandate is pretty limited — even in a world where the other side doesn’t get the favor of arguing back.
James L, Swing State Project:
I have no interest in discussing the healthcare portions of this poll (and neither should you).
National Democratic strategists dismiss the surveys as rank fear-mongering in an attempt to pull the party to the ideological left and note that in several of the polls some of the demographic data — most notably the percentage of voters age 18-34 — was far lower than it is in the voters files for each state.
Alan Abramowitz, Emory University:
In the past few weeks an ostensibly left-wing blog, Firedoglake, has sponsored a series of polls in House districts currently held by moderate Democrats including Indiana 9, New York 1, and Ohio 1. The polls, each of which was conducted by well known automated pollster Survey USA, showed the Democratic incumbents trailing potential Republican challengers by margins ranging from a few points to double digits….[T]here appear to be serious flaws with both the questions and the samples used in the Firedoglake surveys that should give pause to anyone about drawing any firm conclusions about the opinions of voters in these three House districts.
SurveyUSA’s Jay Leve responded to the criticism of the polls:
The highway to high office is littered with the road kill of political operatives who find it easier to campaign against a pollster than an opponent. If the DCCC has polls showing congressional Democrats doing better, release them.
Here’s what Chris Van Hollen told Alex Isenstadt of Politico:
“Let me just say that with respect to those polls, they are totally off,” Rep. Chris Van Hollen of Maryland, chairman of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, told POLITICO. “We had the opportunity to compare those polls with polls that have been done in a professional manner, [and] the others are very different. So they’re not credible.”
And then there’s this gem:
One House Democratic aide said the party decided to engage in a concerted pushback on the polls because, “in some cases, people had the perception the sky was falling,” and the questions about the surveys “needed to be told.”
We agreed that the the truth “needed to be told,” so we challenged the DCCC to release their own polls, and even offered to poll the districts together. They refused. Markos Moulitsas said that the DCCC should release their own polls if they continued to criticize ours, but none of the so-called “experts” who were so very concerned about the integrity of SurveyUSA’s methodology apparently had that level of intellectual curiosity. None of them expressed any desire to see them.
Then again, Markos has always exhibited an impressive commitment to honesty and integrity about polling that you always want to see in someone who analyzes polling data.
Instead, the DCCC lied to their members about what a vote on the health care bill would mean, when they clearly knew the truth from their own internal polls.
I’m really looking forward to looking at how well the polls predicted the impact of the health care bill in these districts after the election, and compare SurveyUSA’s methodology with the outcome in each. I hope those who willingly did the hatchet work of the DCCC will do likewise.




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it is astounding how accurate your “pulse of the nation” is jane, it seems you have been right for just about every issue, the effects of a policy and the political backlash
I wonder why one of these politicians haven’t put you on their staff
Jane Hamsher and Firedoglake are the Cassandras of our times.
I’ve got bad news for them: It’s none too popular in liberal districts or at elast the two I keep up with.
If I were a rank and file Democratic Party politician, I think I’d be very pissed at my leadership right now – all of it. That they don’t seem to be might be another sign of how corrupt and disconnected DC has become.
Bingo. Obama supporters in 2008 but they more they heard about the health care bill, the more frustrated they became.
How much more evidence do the naysayers need to admit the problem isn’t “socialism” but the problem is the folks out there don’t like the health care bill FOR THE SAME REASONS we don’t like the health care bill.
Because she tells the unvarnished truth and politicians, being narcissists, would rather hear what they want to hear.
there isn’t a single person I know who is happy with the bill, and it all comes down to the mandate
I wonder how it is there are political blogs that actually think the health care bill is either progressive or beneficial
ah
I kept wondering why I too have not been called by the obama team, now I know
Not to mention that their goals are completely different than Jane’s.
The mandate and the lack of any competition with the private, for profit insurers is what I’m hearing. The mandate is why the wingers hate it and the lack of public competition is why the liberals hate it. Candidly, I hate it for both of those reasons.
Well, that too! :)
The unexamined prejudice that drives that reasoning seems to be that the mandate is necessary so that insurance can afford to accept people with pre-existing conditions. There are several things this thinking fails to address, but the most subtle one is that there don’t appear to be any studies of that point about mandates worthy of the name. It’s just that most economists believe it, which is good enough.
Off topic but here’s one more reason not to eat at McDonalds, (as if more reason than the fact that they don’t serve food is required). This is going to run afoul of some laws.
When I hit the edit button moments after I posted this comment, it said my time had expired. I think maybe that time needs to be extended. ;)
I hate it for both those reasons and more. No real cost controls is a biggie. Still not making healthcare a right instead of a privilage is another.
But yeah, I don’t know how ANYONE, liberal or conservative, can like the mandate. Wait until other industries figure out the gravy train that precedent sets up and buys off a future Congress and Prez to mandate their industry’s goods/services.
No way it meets the spirit of the Constitution. No way.
Fixed it for ya.
With no way to enforce a price cap that companies can charge, the “reform” is not only meaningless but it arguably does more harm than good.
Just one more way McDonalds leaves a lousy taste in my mouth.
Wait? the military/industrials have long owned them and we have been forced to support them through our taxes. Two wars are lucrative and I’m waiting for the North Korea or Iran debate to end when we’ll find out where the next one will be.
Krugman repeated the same trope, as did other left-leaning economists. I think it had as much to do with economists just not checking their assumptions as it did political expedience.
With insurance premiums shooting up like Fourth of July rockets, with few if any of the bill’s supposed benefits in place—why is this any surprise?
Obama supporters tell us that the tune will change in 2014 when the bill is fully implemented. I think the howls of anger will only get louder when the mandates kick in.
StewartM
Obama destroyed the Democratic Party
Heresy!
Or maybe they assumed, (or even stated), that there would be some real cost controls in it instead of just throwing money at the states for “monitoring”.
M’eh. IMO the Democratic Party was already laying in the street run over. Obama just put it to sleep for good.
Obama supporters say that huh? Obama supporters also swear he’s incredibly intelligent.
How stupid of a politician do you have to be to pass a bill that everyone will love but not have it take effect until after two more elections have passed?
Obama supporters talk out of both sides of their mouth and those sides rarely line up when placed next to each other. Either he’s incredibly stupid or the health care bill isn’t/won’t be popular. Although at this point both seems a good bet to me.
I can’t help but notice that there have been fewer defenses of this pos even at Kos, nor have they published one front page piece on that lame Q&A with Obama the other day. I guess even they can’t figure a way to spin that pig’s ear into a silk purse.
Not sure this is the best comparison. Cassandra didn’t fair too well in her own time…
Oh how I wish there was one, just one, Dem. Senator who had the integrity & strength of conviction for Democratic IDEALS to expose Obama’s HCR for what it was – sleezy, corrupt legislation structured to benefit the very interests who created the mess we’re in.
And for being spineless when we needed him most, Russ Feingold deserves FDL’s reelection support?
Of course they don’t want to poll the districts together or release their own polls. Their job is to lie and to discredit those who tell the truth. Their paychecks depend on them not knowing the truth, not accepting reality.
Clinton destroyed the Democratic Party but walked away a VERY wealthy man. Obama learned well from Clinton.
Remember that “health insurance reform” also trusts the deficit-ridden states to enforce its most pretty-sounding provisions, according to rules which the insurance companies will eventually dominate.
As I’ve said before, the mandate penalties are meaningfully low, so we can expect large numbers of people to pay them until they get sick, at which point they will be filing applications for insurance they won’t be able to afford. No biggie — it goes on the credit cards, like it did before.
83% of bankruptcies caused by medical expenses today are filed by people with insurance. Don’t expect that to change a lot.
The expansion of Medicaid will come out of Medicaid funding, no?
Obama and the Dem Congress have replaced a system which gambles with our health with another system which gambles with our health. The main difference is that when we walk into the emergency rooms of America with medical conditions we still won’t be able to afford to fix, more of us will claim to have insurance after 2014 when we approach America’s medical secretary’s desks and are asked about our “coverage.”
I guess if you’re a single issue voter, he does not. I agree that his caving on this farce is pretty abominable but not so bad as to reward the batsh*t crazy guy running against him. That’s just my opinion as I can’t vote for either of them, not being a Wisconsin resident.
It doesn’t matter. The basic premise was unexamined, which would assume that there was some enforcement mechanism. By “unexamined”, I mean no study was done of whether the underlying premises – that people would only buy insurance when they needed treatment, etc., were true enough to matter.
At least, none of these folks cited such a study.
rove is LAUGHING and LAUGHING and laughing
it seemed impossible the republicans would ever have credibility again, rove got in obama a perfect villain, someone who didn’t know the first thing about bargaining, poker, chess, who has no idea how to push back.
I am agreeing, obama seems like he is not to far north on the intelligence scale
I agree. I didn’t see any such citation.
Funny how Republicanless European McDonalds give their employees more benefits. And isn’t the “food” closer to real food there too? Hmmm. Maybe the Republicans are the problem.
Of course! Nobody working with the Democrats will admit that the Elmer Fudd Theory of Electoral Victory has been anything less than a shining success!
I’m betting on Yemen or Somalia. Iran and North Korea have a sizable military and invasion of either or both would require a draft. The U.S. won’t resort to that until the unemployment numbers are higher.
Knox @27 (reply not working)
Yep. She was cursed. However…she was right when no one believed her.
I think he’s very bright, just very far down the corrupt end of the spectrum. He’s brighter than Bush but that makes him worse because he knows what he’s doing to the rest of us.
Barack Obama: MAWBB
What? It’s brilliant! When the crappiest parts kick in, he’ll either be on the short timer glide path, or already on the six figure speech circuit. Cynical? Maybe. Politically stupid? Only if one assumes politics is anything other than venality.
Does anyone know if Obama is going to be on Jimmie Kimmel tonight. I think the country enjoys their president also being a celebrity. Wouldn’t it be fun to out with him after the show and have a beer?
And the Stupak/Nelson backstabs delivered to pro-choicers didn’t help the women’s vote, either, I’ll reckon.
I just don’t see them as being very lucrative targets for the MIC. Blowing the shit out of dirt will get rid of some ordinance, sure but it can’t last. While everybody else seems to have forgotten sustainability in favor of short term profit, the MIC has moved in the opposite direction. Just my .02.
No, it sure didn’t help my viewpoint any.
I say thank you Jane Hamsher…could you imagine what the WH would be getting away with if not for Jane & Glen Greenwald.
Those so called progressive TV hosts & orgs who discarded their credibility just for WH meet & greet,were willing to sell us WH spin….well folks just remember what those TV peoples & organisations represent…not you nor us.They are frauds,have no shame nor conscience & are willing to misinform & harm Americans just so they can get WH invitations.They rather suck up to power at our expense.
Thank you Jane.Keep up your great work.
It’s all about the obscene expense of elections these days.
There’s a reason that Rahm recruited millionaire self-funders when he was running the DCCC: It’s because even with sellouts to corporate interests, they still back Republicans more fervently than they ever will Democrats. That’s why even though the official Democratic party groups have more money than the official GOP ones, the groups allied with the GOP have dumped nine times as much dough into this election cycle than have Dem-aligned groups.
Want to change that? Back groups like http://www.publicampaign.org that are working to level the monetary playing field.
Did they poll the insurance providers? One would imagine with 30+ million suckers, er I mean customers, being dumped in their laps they must be ecstatic.
Yes, but the problem is that Republicans have very cleverly framed everything Obama does as “government takeover of X (healthcare, banking, the economy), radical socialism, out of control spending, tax hikes, etc (paid for you by the Koch Brothers). So that’s the headwind you face arguing for any reform to the left of “corporate sellout” has to fly into. Hell the White House will go full on corporate sellout and they still get tagged as socialists.
Hi Jane,
I’m sorry for going off topic here, but do you have any recommendations for how I can get people to read my new diary?
http://my.firedoglake.com/tripwonders/2010/10/29/note-to-progressive-creampuffs/
I’m thinking about going professional and legit and all that.
Fixed it for ya.
There is some weasel-wording in that WSJ/NBC report.
Note that not all of these districts have Democratic incumbents.
Plurality – most votes but not necessarily a majority. How solid was it? What are the numbers?
And what were the numbers for and against the healthcare bill? If it’s so definitive where are they in this “polling recently commissioned by the National Republican Congressional Committee”? This part is pure Republican spin; otherwise the numbers would be shoved in your face.
And what were the Dem-Rep breakdown for those 65 districts? How far did the result depart from that Dem-Rep breakdown?
This is a very slender thread of evidence. I’m waiting for Wednesday.
I guess I don’t understand. Yes, we progressives hate the health bill.
But the cure isn’t to vote in Republicans who will kill it.
“Start over”?
They’re not going to touch it after they kill it. If they can.
Well Yemen does have frankincense and myrrh and I hear their honey is delicious. I’m sure the corporate media would be willing to convince the U.S. public that they need the honey. Somalia, well I’m sure the military wants a do over.
Not one Republican voted for the Health Care Bill. Who do the Democrats have to blame but themselves?
A mandate would become necessary if the U.S. adopted a government administered health care system. That would not preclude folks from going the private route if they choose to do so, of course.
Oh, what I would not give for a president who actually gave anti-government, anti-welfare states exactly what they wanted. Mississippi, Alaska, Louisiana, West Virginia, North Dakota, etc. all get more federal dollars from the government than they pay in taxes; in some cases, they get almost twice as much. Why don’t we give them what they want and kick them off of government welfare?
Check out this infographic for details:
http://www.visualeconomics.com/united-states-federal-tax-dollars/
Of course it begs the question why should the insurance companies capture the rent of mandated premiums (which are not scaled by income) instead of the Feds simply levying taxes (which are). Even if taxes were used to pay private insurance companies to provide coverage (sort of like Medicare Advantage), it’d be an improvement over what Obama passed.
i can easily understand why ppl would be unhappy with o’bumblecare…OTOH..thats no reason to go running to corporatist repugs either ..its ludicrous at best to think that the repugs will roll back a big handout to their cronys’ in the health insurance cartel…
more likely..too many women have bought into the mama grizzly bullshit…
Progressives. For whining about not getting substantive reform./s
other than Prop 19, this is the one thing I have been looking forward to on Tuesday night
not that any of these fierce pragmatists will acknowledge their crap, but I’ll be there to give ‘em an opportunity just the same
Nate Silver in January 2010:
Heckuva job, Nate.
Who suggested that?
Hey y’all.
Can there be any less credible way to start a sentence than with those three words? I’m having a hard time coming up with anyone to whom I’d be less likely to listen. Maybe the Dudley Damn Do-Rights at BP. Or the DOJ regarding anything done in the last decade or so.
Is there any difference worth a damn between D’s and R’s? Depends. At what level are we talking? It’s clear the War Party just puts on or takes off those masks as needed. But locally, sure, there are differences.
It’s like the batteries in cars. Both poles arise from the same box, right? The creeping corporatizing weaponization of both parties drains all potential energy from the system.
The battery was damn near dead already when the collapse hit. Maybe the collapse was the symptom? At any rate, as far as getting course-correcting amperage to redirect our ship of state, we’re dead in the water.
It may interest you landlubbers to learn that a ship with no way can not be steered. If pols don’t hold to principles, if they focus-group our shared narrative so much that there’s insufficient potential for change, we’ll lose the power to shape our day. Methinks we already have.
Likewise, when the tide changes, it doesn’t do it digitally. After the ebb, the water just stands around for a while. Just as the flood begins, you can see hundreds of whirlpools form. That’s where we’re at, going nowhere, spinning around on our own axes until the current shapes the water.
If it weren’t for our awareness of this very human power right here, to shape our flow from within, I’d have to agree with the ones who are trying to machine all life on earth under the dominance of their mechanical thumbs. Effing gear-heads.
hey Mods -
am getting a awaiting moderator approval message – wth ?
Sooner or later we are going to have to make a stand…re-electing people who keeps giving us corporate friendly legislation is not the answer either.
Quite telling work, Jane. After the debacle on Nov. 2, I hope you begin a big push to expose the Democratic operatives and office holders responsible for this strategic blunder. The Democratic leadership needs to be confronted on numerous levels on issues such as bankster fraud cover-up, BP Oil spill coverup, civil liberties malfeasance and coverup, coziness with the health and defense industries, immigration reform avoidance, DADT and a raft of other issues. The principal leaders need to be targeted and a move to replace the leadership needs to become a primary topic here at FDL. Some progressive legislators like DeFasio are starting to voice their disappointment with the Democratic establishment in the open. Hopefully more will come put of the closet with help from progressive bloggers such as yourself.
Ha ha, thanks. I used the present tense because its ongoing process– whether its healthcare, bank roform, the BP sill, mortgage fraud, Bush tax hikes or whatever comes down the pike next, the Administration has come up with a unique formula for failure (its the second part which is the real innovation).
Sell out to corporate interests while getting tagged as socialist.
Give me a break!
Obama, Axelrod, Gibbs, Rahm, Jarrett, and the phony dems in congress, all knew the Bob Dole Health Care Bill would not be a winner.
Only a corporate sell out would push to pass such a terrible HCR Bill. (and OBAMA is the ultimate corporate sell out)
The HCR scam is a lot like NAFTA. NAFTA did not get the hate it deserved due to the internet being in it’s infancy.
Rational political leaders always seek to win their next election by doing things their base of voters like. Not Obama, he represent a new kind of politician that seeks to only please and worship his corporate bosses at the cost of being call a traitor to the people who got him elected.
(Obama and the phony dems were betting on most of their voters staying ignorant and unaware about how they had sold them out to insurance companies. It use to be easy to keep the masses dumb, just tell them to watch CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX, MSNBC, etc. SEE all these media outlets call Obama a strong Liberal. (Obama has change the true meaning of Liberal, at this rate Reagan is going to be call a progressive)
Obama and some dems, want to trick and treat their base like the GOP treats and tricks theirs base. THE GOP is built and sustained by ignorant voters.
“The GOP is the only party on Planet Earth with people who vote against their best interest and love doing it!”
The average GOP voter will smile and laugh about how they just gave their good paying JOB to china or india by voting for their GOP congress person that hates the idea of americans having good Jobs.
A lot of Democrats are not that Stupid!
or could have just asked those of us in MA in 2008 or early 2009 (not that it would have been conclusive, but it would have been an early indicator). don’t think i can ever forgive the dems and their allies for how this one went down without a fight until it was too late and an unworkable po neoliberal policy was successfully branded the progressive policy while sp supporters were branded as unrealistic, stupid, wrong on the facts (when they weren’t) and even non-persons not worth engaging in policy discussion. this one was way too close to home in how it has personally affected me.
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is up: Christine O’Donnell Should Apologize to Gawker
Here,here.
The Democratic party leadership….corrupted to the core.Most of these people have got to be booted.
on less controversial note….
i stopped by to wish ecahn a very happy birthday (i’m pretty sure it’s today). if anyone reading this comment “sees” her later will pass along my good wishes, i’d be grateful. thanks.
And don’t forget the little hit job Gibbs did when he said something to the effect that those DFH’s will never be happy until “we have Canadian style health care and have shut down the Pentagon.”
Boom, in one sentence he equates support for single payer healthcare with being as crazy as closing down our military.
From the OBAMA White House Press Secretary.
Jane has always had a better view of what is happening in the country than the countless overpaid political analysts surrounding Zero who tell him what he wants to hear.
Only slightly OT: has anyone taken a look at the blogs of those “progressives” invited to the White House Tea Dance to determine if it influenced their “coverage” in any way? [I.e., made it even more rabidly supportive.]
Well, the past 3 decades have shown that those results are irrelevant. Politicians really only care about what the public thinks in the last 6 weeks remaining in an election. Those 6 weeks are always up for grabs because money, along with lesser-of-two-evils sermons, largely determines the contours of those 6 weeks. So if it comes down to licking the corporate donor’s boot three months before an election or looking at public opinion polls, a politician will grovel like a pig for the money every time.
:lol: the repugs definitely wont kill it…read my earlier post…
I do know that HP is full of kool aid drinking zombies.
Yes, it does beg that question, although few seemed to respond to that begging at the time.
Ding ding ding! Verb tense of the day! Well said, beowulf. One of my poetic techniques is to keep it in the present imperfect. Cuz that’s where and what we are.
Other tenses denote static characteristics of extant things. But there are no such “things” in nature, we’re all vortices in the same field. SO where is the boundary between your “thing” and my “thing?” Life is not a -ness thing (as in happiness, sadness, fullness, emptiness, and so on), Life is an -ing thing. Be -ing!
Here in the present imperfect we find the ineffable, limitless power of the people, united. Oddly enough, the soundless sound of these unspoken words (which you hear in your inner ears even now, even though they never have been spoken) is the only “thing” known that can sound our endless depths.
You have that right. But the ability to see the future does not forestall the future. Remember that Cassandra predicted the fall of Troy, the death of Agamemnon, and her own death.
And the reason no one believed Cassandra:
That’s where Jane differs. There are bunches of people who accept her analysis. But telling folks “I told you so.” does not necessarily endear them to you.
I propose a new bumper sticker:
[Please note: this is only for those who feel compelled to vote for Dems, not for those who will vote Third Party.]
OT and for what it’s worth Politico is reporting that the Obama administration is planning a push for NAFTA style trade agreements after the election.
Oh crap, do I know that as well. Every time I am foolish enough to comment over there, I get piled on upon by the Obamabots.
Any rank and file Democratic politician who does not understand his own district better than the DCCC deserves to lose. Most knew full well what they were doing, and the ones who were allowed to vote against it were the ones that the caucus thought were most vulnerable to challenge.
Russ was the only person who, for years, stood up on civil liberties and the war. He did it when it was hard and unpopular.
To abandon him when he’s in need because people are miffed about his vote on this bill sends a signal (rightfully) that you can’t trust support from the online communities you’re sticking up for, because it will always be based on what you had for dinner last night.
I don’t think that’s a relationship we want to have with people who have done everything we’ve asked and more on key issues over the years. I understand people are upset, and Russ is paying a huge price for that health care vote. But the long-term view is the important one here, I think.
Boy if I cared about “endearing” people to me, I’d have a different job, that’s for sure.
The same people who led everyone down the garden path on this bill are largely the neoliberal hacks who supported the war in Iraq. And they’re making the same ” we were right to be wrong” arguments again.
It’s not “I told you so.” It’s “why do we keep listening to these people.” At least the liberal blogosphere had the good sense to mock them when they were cheerleading the Iraq war. On the health care bill, they became the go-to experts.
And, you know, if you look at what happens in the last six weeks of most elections, the voting patters are really determined more by the attack ads and the way politicians respond to them. What voters thought six months ago doesn’t amount to much when Swift Boat Veterans For Truth are yelling in their ear today.
[[[[selise!]]]]
Yep.
It’s theirs, they OWN it, and they are fully responsible for it.
And Tuesday they’re going to face that responsibility.
And had they done something as radical as say, single payer, and have it kick in Jan. 1, 2010, I would bet every penny I have or ever will have that their electoral prospects going into Tuesday would be MUCH BETTER. Much much much better.
Live and learn.
Or not. I suppose some would prefer we don’t hold Democrats accountable. Since the Repugs are worse, we shouldn’t hole them accountable. Interestingly, a lot of those same folks insist W and The Dick should be accountable for their war crimes, the banksters should be accountable. Everyone should be accountable but the Democrats.
Guess what folks. If we the voters don’t hold the politicians making and enforcing the laws accountable, how the hell can we reasonably expect them to hold anyone else accountable?
Who knew that Obama would bring conservatives and liberals together to hate his health care bill?
Bipartisanship you can believe in!
I hate the bill for forcing people to buy health insurance, and that it doesn’t come close to covering everyone in the country.
Not well at all. She was enslaved (she went with Ajax’s share of the loot) with all of the surviving Trojan women.
And another cheerleading squad.
I read a comment on the HCR some time ago that I think hit the point right on the button. The stipulation mandating the purchase of private insurance poisoned the bill for good, and may well result in its being overturned by the Supremes, and for good reason. It is unheard of to force people to buy something from the private sector that they may not want to buy (or can’t afford to buy). Had the Public Option been maintained in the final bill, the mandate would stand, because people would always have a public option — hence, not ‘forced’ to buy from a private insurer.
Whatever else went into the bill, and I’m not denying that there is a lot of good stuff in there, is spoiled buy that one rotten apple. It was a miscalculation of the highest magnitude.
And Gibbs never apologised for it, so we can surmise that Obama agrees with him.
And they wonder why there is an enthusiasm gap.
I hope the court overturns the mandate. Ironically, there’s strong, bipartisan support for it to be overturned. Conservatives and liberals both hate it, ableit for different reasons, but they still dislike it, and rightfully so.
What you said.
The HCR turned into a give-away to the corporations at that point and lost all of semblemce of capability to really solve the problems it sought to fix. It leaves the “average citizen” still at the mercy of BigIns, which is only about making money out of people’s health care and medical issues.
Dumb. Dems will reap the whirlwind. I have no sympathy. Buncha tools.
When HCR passed, health insurance stocks immediately popped up 5-10%. The public isn’t so dumb as to not understand the implication.
And just yesterday, NPR morning edition ran a story on healthcare which went something like this: huge premium rate hikes next year, Obama’s HHS admin says it’s just silly to relate the rate hikes to HCR. Silly… as silly as electing Democrats it would appear.
But no worries… people can just take out a 2nd mortgage on thier homes if healthcare costs become a strain on the family budget. A perfectly sensible solution unless the mortgage industry was mired in a train wreck of fraud, forgery, lawsuits and insolvency. I guess people will just have to tack the rate hikes onto thier 30% interest rate credit cards.
If Obama got 90% of what he wanted, I’d be scared to think of what 100% would look like. I don’t think we could afford it.
Yes because we all know that beating up on & dissing the base that worked really hard and contributed money to get you elected makes a lot of sense as a continuing campaign strategy…
Well put.
OT, but did you know Brian Wilson’s Beard has never been to the doctor?
Indeed. I shudder to contemplate what Obummer’s 100% looks like. And if he’s “satisfied” with his performance so far, that’s pretty pathetic.
Michael Moore was on Rachel Maddow last night (rarely watch but happened to see that segment), and Moore was totally begging people to vote Dem and “give Obama just 2 more years.” Pathetic. I wanted scream at Moore… he’s turned into a tool as well.
Yup. Genius political strategy, and after Nov. 2nd, the base will get the blame (as usual) if the Dems lose big.
Even if the Dems somehow keep Congress, the fact that Obama’s incompetence has resurrected the GOP is enough reason to primary him in 2012.
Obama doesn’t get it, and I don’t think he ever will. His “heck of a job, Summers” comment the other night on TDS showed how out of touch/aloof he really is.
You did all you cldve done Jane. You took them evidence that supported your position and bcz it wasnt what they wanted to hear or do they dismissed you and us as outside agitators who whine when we dont get what we want. I remember stating that this healthcare bill was a democrat in office killer but who am I to question the wisdom of The Hyde Park Rabbit. He cocksuredly predicted that the dems who voted for this mess wld be able to campaign confidently on it. In fact he dared the republicans to make an issue over it. I live in Ohio ( Kilroy’s district) and I have not heard a peep about the healthcare bill. As bad as the republicans are and will be for this country this group of democrats deserve the ass kicking they are about to get.
Moore is part of the Democratic establishment now. He’s not a muckracker working from the outside. He’s part of the inner circle.
Seconded. I chafe when I see Democrats who fight the good fights and ultimately capitulate get dumped into the same compost bin with those who merely pay lip service to the good fights, or worse (as is too common) fight on the wrong side.
I’m offended that they actually expect us to enthusiastically get behind their handling of the economy. We’re supposed to cheer on Summers and Geithner? We’re supposed to cheer them on because they maintained the privilege of the economic elite instead of temporarily nationalizing the banks and getting our economy on solid, equitable ground again. They haven’t removed any of the risks, practically speaking, in the way the economy functions. Indeed, they’ve actually strengthened too big to fail.
Yep, Mike has bought into those scary republican scenarios also. It is as though results and performance dont mean anything.
And the administration really hasn’t put any of the criminals behind bars, for crying out loud! Trillions of dollars of fraud and nobody goes to jail. We’re supposed to be motivated by that?
Yup, and the same thing has occured in the UK. Tony Blair has become stinking rich since leaving office… meanwhile the new government is laying drastic austerity down on the public to pay for the Tony Blair years. Blair has collected about 15 million pounds since leaving office. And he collects at least a few million additional pounds a year as advisor to the big banks such as JP Morgan.
Wish I could say it was a single issue. He also voted to say that Israel has a right to protect themselves regarding the issue of Israel killing those people on the ship taking aid to Gaza.
you forgot snark tag (please tell me you forgot snark tag)
(((selise)))
Referred to you at WTO Miami as someone who stands up to be counted the other day.
Haven’t seen eCAHN today but will pass on your good wishes when I do.
I really, really hate polls.
“…while 45% said they would be more likely to vote for a candidate who wanted to repeal the law entirely and start over.”
Were that a true statement, it would describe me. In reality what it means is “repeal the law and do nothing“.
That’s not the only reason you haven’t been called :-)
Oh now you’re just being silly. We can do TWO WARS AT ONCE! ;)
And if we want to properly ratchet things up, why not throw Somalia in there too? They did humiliate us with all that BlackHawk Down stuff, after all. And Somalia would be easy peasy because as the MSM says, they have no real govermment to speak of, and they got no nukes. I don’t know if Somalia has oil, but they are on a coast that is near to oil…we could stop some pirates – always good for some PR back home – and use the Somali coast as a launching point for raids into Iran.
I can’t vote for him either, but I did NOT give him $$ this time around! As for it’s just 1 vote, Feingold did NOT have a Progressive six years, not even close!
Yes, and things like that do more to undermine the left than a thousand busloads of teabaggers and a hundred Rush Limbaughs.
Sickening.
As I remember it, the liberal blogosphere was divided on the healthcare bill. Dramatically divided.
“Why do you keep listening to these people?” is indeed what you have been saying since you discovered the “veal pen”.
But there are a lot of folks in the “these people” category. Why do folks who blog about politics listen to what folks in DC are saying about what is going on in the rest of the country? Why do folks continue to enable Politico and hang on every word of the NYT and WaPo opinion page? Most voters, Republican and Democrat, don’t give a squat about what David Brooks, Tom Friedman, or even Paul Krugman have opined about. Few watch the bobbleheads on Sunday morning; a third to a half are at church during that time. I don’t think there are more than 1% of Democrats who know who Lannie Davis or Bob Schrum or Mark Penn are. And fewer care what they think. Few voters don’t use Charlie Cook to decide who to vote for.
There are one hell of a lot of “experts” that I find myself asking “Why do folks listen to them?” But then on the other side of the aisle I ask the same questions about folks outside the Beltway who hang on the words of Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck or Michael Wiener (Savage) or … for that matter.
And I ask myself why every Congressional staff has a TV tuned to FoxNews.
Repubs are NOT worse when the Dems have the power, w/o one stinking Repub. vote, to effect real, critically needed change. When the Repubs control all 3 branches of Gov’t., THEN you can call them the worst, but right now they’re not even close. This Obama Administration & the lying, spineless weasels you refer to have blown a once in our lifetime opportunity to right the wrongs of sixteen consecutive years of thoroughly immoral, corrupt, corporatist Regimes. Obama & the Dems are ABSOLUTELY the WORST! If voters cared we’d vote out EVERY Incumbent, both sides. But, guess what?
I’ve read & tried to keep up with you since your team’s spectacular (what absolutely should have been Pulitzer winning) HCR coverage. Your abilities, energy & especially your refusal to be misdirected away from your long-term objectives is truly amazing (& hopefully will pay off big-time).
In the meantime, you’ve got my support, when I’m able to choke down my outrage. Feingold Had a TERRIBLE term, you know better than I do – it wasn’t just HCR. He should be ashamed of himself & he deserves to lose. But, for you, I’ll stop calling attention to the miserable sell-out he’s become until after the election. That’s the best I can do & I’m doing it solely for you.
Another famous victory for Rahmbama.
I can guess. Republicans aren’t likely to vote for Democrats in a general election. To hold accountability and vote out incumbents of your own party, you do it like the Tea Party did, in the primary. And like the Tea Party, only part of the political establishment will be with you. It’s time, maybe a little late, to figure out who to put up in primaries in 2012 and who to challenge Republicans in 2012. Otherwise we will have to take what we are given again. If you don’t fight, you can’t win.
Yes, Jane is often right… but politicians really, really hate Cassandras. No use for them. Period.
Most people assume that the Obama administration’s health care reform push began when top Obama officials met secretly with executives and lobbyists from the health insurance industry, pharmaceutical companies and hospital executives, with Blue Dog Democrats working out an industry-friendly deal which took a public option and universal single payer off the table.
Actually, the first “health reform” action occurred prior to these secret meetings, shortly after President Obama was sworn-in, something pushed by Speaker Nancy Pelosi, based on one of her pet peeves. They raised the federal tax on tobacco, but only on cigarettes, not cigars, or pipe tobacco, a regressive federal tax increase affecting tens of millions of U.S. citizens during a Great Recession and at the time 750,000 jobs were being lost each month.
But I had my suspicions of these neo-liberal “Democrats” prior to Obama becoming president, primarily because of their enacting a bill granting retroactive immunity to telecom companies who participated in the Bush/Cheney administration’s illegal warrantless wiretapping programs. Speaker Pelosi even took impeachment off the table, even as administration evidence kept appearing that top Bush/Cheney administration officials had committed egregious “high crimes and misdemeanors” over and over again.
President Obama, a similar neo-liberal “Democrat,” then became our 44th president, and has continued neo-liberal “Democratic” policies, covering for the previous Republican administration, using the “state secrets” argument to hide Bush/Cheney crimes, pushing generally conservative-friendly policies.
Yes, they raised the federal minimum wage. Yes, they extended unemployment insurance. Yes, they helped get loans to small businesses. Yes, they stopped another Great Depression from occurring by pumping federal stimulus money into the economy and into state coffers.
But they gave so much more away to the conservatives and Republicans, with plans apparently to give even more away. Sen. Harry Reid, as Senate Majority Leader, could have cracked down on the obstructionist Republicans, making their lives hell in the U.S. Senate, but he didn’t, forcing them to actually filibuster, instead of Reid (and Democrats) caving just to the threat of a Republican filibuster. President Obama could have established a Job Creation Commission, but instead opted for a deficit-cutting “Cat Food” Commission which has since veered off into talk of “reforming” Social Security, even though Social Security doesn’t add anything to federal budget deficits. Likewise, instead of the Obama administration tapping into the Social Security Trust Fund to cover monthly COLA increases for senior citizens (especially during this Republican-caused Great Recession), the neo-liberal “Democrats” are talking of sending one supplemental check, like was done last year. Wasn’t the Social Security Trust Fund established for just such emergencies, whether baby boomers retiring or Republicans almost crashing our economy again like they did in 1929, with the Republican President Hoover then making matters even worse?
All I’m saying is that the Obama administration (and congressional Democratic leaders) seem to keep trying to straddle the fence, occasionally falling on the liberal, progressive side, but more often (on big dollar issues) falling on the hardcore conservative side. Our nation definitely doesn’t need anymore Republican “public servants” (who are actually slaves to corporate interests), but we do need better Democrats.
Thus, I’m still voting straight Democratic Party ticket this election, with the hope that the neo-liberal “Democratic” leadership will be ousted in the future and replaced with more progressive, more liberal Democratic leadership, who will provide a sharp contrast to the nation-destroying worker-attacking corporate-owned Social Security-hating Republicans. Sigh, one can dream.
Well you’re dear to us!!!
[Now go get rid of those nasty nested comments @ myFDL. s/]
I don’t disagree about how horrible the Dems are. I was just trying to find some way to characterize votes for Dems [and there will be some; see Michael Moore & Keith] as something other than a ratification of their tack to the Right, and approval of Obama.
Somehow those 850,000 Dems who stayed home in MA rather than vote for Martha Coakley didn’t get “counted” for anything. Brown’s win was just interpreted as further proof the Dems needed to go Right.
I don’t understand how public funding is supposed to really help. In order for it to do any good it needs to be able to get at least close to matching private funding, which means that the amount of public funding assistance would have to be absurdly huge, or public funding has to be the only source of funding available.
If you make it big enough to compete with private expenditures, then the public campaign funds turn into just another trough for would-be politicians to gorge themselves on to throw themselves the most grand shamelessly self-promoting glorified popularity contest campaigns ever.
If you try to make it so that it’s the only means of funding you’re going to butt right up against a handful of SCOTUS decisions barring you from doing it as a matter of Constitutionality.
Unless public funding provisions are coming in the form of Amendments, I don’t understand how they’re anything other than symbolic victories.
Yeah, those victories would just be symbolic now.
Before the Citizens United decision, when we were allowed to have campaign laws limiting expenditures, it would’ve worked well.
But now? The candidates will take their measly few bucks from the government, walk accross the street to meet with reps of X,Y,Z Corp., and discuss their real ad strategy. Paid for, of course, by X,Y,Z Corp.
It was obvious to me as early a 2006 that the fix was in on healthcare when Amy Klobuchar running for the Senate in a Minnesota where folks are truly keen on healthcare volunteered to the local press that “universal healthcare is unrealistic”. That prompted me to make a personal vow to never again vote for a Democrat who was opposed to my core values. I did not vote for Amy and I will not vote for her in 2012.
Sure, vote for Democrats who share your values but don’t give up on democracy. Stop voting for those who will not stand with you on the big issues. We don’t all identify the same issues as core to our values. But pick a few that are and don’t sell them out, no matter what. Don’t allow yourself to be intimidated out of the freedom to vote for what you believe in.
Thank you bailey, and I do understand it’s more than just health care.
Although we at FDL were already onto Obama,I think a large # of his supporters were shocked when C.C. Donnerly said on WW in review that Obama confided in her on the campaign trail that he didn’t like the public option but needed it as a ploy to lure Edwards peeps and delineate himself from Hillary.With the option over 7o% pro,without the option,over 70% con,Arrogance allowed them to play themselves.The overall cynicism this scam breed regarding future betrayals might be the most damaging aspect.
Individual Mandates for Private Corporations is bad for the future of Democracy in our country and it sets a very bad example to the rest of the companies to follow.
Example for companies is Be as lazy as you can be in competing for business, Be as large as you can be in having the market share, Be as strong as you can be in lobbying with Congress, Be as aggressive in getting IRS enforced mandates to increase, our country will become one of the unlivable places in the world. It is so bad with HCR bill that basic thing such as Anti-trust exemption is not repealed for AHIP and Pharma.
On the other side of the spectrum, Individual mandates for Government run single payer I am all for it. I know I can always work to elect congressman or congresswoman who will work to fix the issue if Premiums are going out of affordability or quality is going down.
You ARE good, vey good!
So, while you are whiling away imponderables, maybe you’ll remember who once opined, “Think, and you will be forever lost in introspection.”
“In a follow-up focus group in Erie, Pa., with some of the poll’s participants, one of the organizers said it was striking to see how many women’s votes were driven by health care. Some came to the focus group reciting chapter and verse the provisions of the law they didn’t like. Many said they were Obama supporters in 2008, but the more they heard about the health care bill, the more frustrated they became.”
Of course women are opposed to it. They have irregular worklives and will get hit with a mandate they STILL can’t afford. Their working class bros in construction and seasonal work ain’t gonna like that either. Ditto white collar contract labor.
The D-Party has one popular constituency and one popular constituency only: the upper middle class.
After HCR Bill & Financial Bill along with Bailouts in my opinion it is:
The D-Party has one
popularconstituency and onepopularconstituency only:the upper middle classAHIP, Pharma & Wall StreetI never saw Connolly say that. Do you have a link?
Sorry Jane,I actually don’t even watch the show,it;s just there after belva Davis.I was paraphrasing ,but if I recall ,her exact words were,’he was never a fan of the public option’.That was when I began paying attention ,yet even then,it wasn’t my full attention,because I also was processing how much this moved the timeline of his calculated duplicity.I think the the political reasoning for him embracing the public option is well-established,the news for me was that he never actually embraced it.The show was circa six months ago.