‘Bout time. Thanks Jane.

And many thanks to cool headed, rational, reasonable religious leaders.

Mornin’ Jane and Firedogs,

Southern Cali Represent !

More than 30 Southern California religious leaders gathered Friday in downtown Los Angeles to show their support for plans to build a mosque and community center two blocks from ground zero, despite widespread opposition to the project

What took these “leaders” so long to do this? Glad they finally are doing something, but they let it get so far out of hand before they did, incalculable and irreparable damage has been done to the U.S. social fabric.

That’s really nice Ron. You seem like a reasonable guy with a problematic and unkempt mailing list. Hard to imagine that you could have fathered a guy like Randy- a man so out of it his plan to “secure the border,” involved pet technology.

You see why I like Ron Paul?

“War on Prayer” sounds like a misnomer. I’d bet the people who are most against the community center would characterize themselves as very religious. “Prayer War” might be more apt.

Jane, thanks for sharing this. I’m not religious but am resolute in my support of freedom of religion. I’m disgusted by the demagogues fanning these flames, and have been looking for ways to stand against the bigotry. I don’t believe for a second all of the references to polls showing most Americans are against the mosque. Despite the ample evidence of pockets of real hatred and bigotry in our country, I’m convinced an overwhelming majority of Americans, once informed of the facts surrounding this issue, would side with the developers of the community center, regardless of their religion (or lack thereof).

It is not in the interests of Christians, Jews, or secular humanists for America to vilify Muslims and fan the flames of a religious war against Islam. Only a few pundits, politicians and neo-cons stand to profit from this entirely destructive, manufactured fight. Americans living in the fact-based world and even those who aren’t, but who have a modicum of enlightened self-interest, must stand against this nonsense and reverse this trend before it is driven any further.

this is ‘light speed’ compared to the all but non existent pushback on torture

I’m still waiting for someone in the media that most Americans see/hear — namely, network TV news and drive-time radio — to point out that Pam Geller and Franklin Graham are doing Al-Qaeda’s dirty work so effectively that one almost wonders if they’re being paid to do so.

You like him because he’s not all bad? ;)

And let’s see if this makes any of the nightly network news shows, or drive-time network radio.

Grateful thanks to you, Jane for lifting up this youtube and this campaign. I’m going to share it with many people.
And, thank you to cbl2 for the california connection.
It’s better to light a candle.

Um…because he’s crazy only most of the time?

About. Damn. Time.

These folks have a masterful turn of mind: Stop the War on Prayer is a magnificent riposte.

It’s not about religion @ all! It’s just part of the Reich’s ongoing Kultur /Political / Class war they wage ceaselessly from every media outlet they either own, control or intimidate ( AKA almost all of them.)

I’d bet the people who are most against the community center would characterize themselves as very religious.

IMVHO, the people most against the community center are the politicians who want to capitalize on it as an election issue (just as soon as they can indoctrinate the rabble with the proper amounts of fear and loathing!)

BT brought this up just this morning.

Let’s see Beck, Hannity, O’Reilly, Fox & Friends, etal tap dance their way out of that one…

Deserves very side circulation, especially to people who think “Fox” is a legitimate news operation. I’ve already sent it to a number of acquaintances who are of the wingnut persuasion. So far, silence…which I choose to take as a good sign.

It does not surprise me that habitual good guys like Rabbi Burt Visotzky of the Jewish Theological Seminary, and CEO of Sojourners Rev. Jim Wallis are on the list. But I am surprised at the absence of an Episcopal bishop on the list. They are usually predictable partners of such efforts. Perhaps one will sign on later.

Bob in AZ

Terrific point. Bad on me for not thinking of religious leaders’ lack of leadership on torture. Being areligious, I don’t expect anything of religion, except I would expect them to react when their own chosen field gets attacked.

The ‘media…’ I’ve gone to referring to them as USG propaganda outlets.

NPR-National Propaganda Radio. A farce.

How twisted has our national dialogue become, when our President and religious leaders can actually make news by stating their support for freedom of religion in America?

The right-wing noise machine has manufactured a national “debate” about something totally non-controversial. It’s the “death panels” all over again.

I side with Howard Dean on this. It’s not a matter of religious freedom. We agree the muslims have just as much right to build as any other religion.
If this is supposed to bring people together, it’s not. The elephants in the room are: it was muslims not strippers who hijacked a plane and crashed it into the WTC; We are at war with 2 Islamic countries; Islam is still stuck in the 6the century with a culture that is mysogonistic, practice stonings, honor killings, etc; Add to that, public opinion runs high against building at that site.

Look, sometimes it’s better to back off a little till tensions ease down. Public reaction is not unexpected and to force this down people’s throat is not uniting people which I thought was the point.

Someone is pumping big money into the certain media outlets to forment this scapegoating of an easily identifiable religious group. It is eerily reminiscent of what occurred in Europe in the late 1930s, with only a slight variation of the scapegoat.

This is yet another desperate attempt by someone to deflect attention from a very big crime.

Gentle reminder to not let the crazies take over the language. This center is no more a ‘mosque’ than a YMCA, hospital, whatever, with a chapel is a ‘cathedral’, and calling it such just encourages them.

These wingnuts would have been fed the same koolaid if this center were going to be built 10 blocks away. It’s the hate that drives politics today and it’s working.

Looks like we’ll have another meaningless election with the real issues off the table and never discussed.

I’ve finally decided to believe my lying eyes. I stopped watching what I used to refer to as MSM a couple of years ago. I initially thought that as I read & learned more, I had outgrown the media oriented toward people who didn’t have the time to learn that I did. IOW, I thought the MSM was unchanged but I had become more knowledgeable. Now I’ve been sampling TV again, and am appalled. Yes, I’ve become more knowledgeable, but they have deteriorated into really obvious propaganda. There is no pretense of anything close to reporting anything close to accurate.

Guessing you need to do some objective reading about Islam.

Dean’s position was simple deference to Obama–he was doing damage control to help the WH for being so flip-floppy on the issue. Identify the leaders of the anti-mosque movement and it’ll be clear to you that there will be no compromise with these people–they profit from manufacturing and fanning the fight.

Holding all of Islam accountable for 9/11 is prejudice and bigotry, plain and simple.

Granted there are large sects in Islam that long to return to the 6th century. Do you believe fanning a religious war is going to weaken or strengthen those forces?

If you think we are at war in Iraq and Afghanistan because their populations are largely muslim, you are living on another planet.

Get informed and think for yourself for crying out loud. You are being shepherded like a sheep.

Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is ready: Republicans Love the Constitution, Except All the Parts They Want to Change

@psalongo:

look on the bright side- it’s not actually religious intolerance or prayer-hate. the white nativists only think they hate muslims. but they don’t know what “muslim” is. What they really hate is american black people specifically, and brown foreigners more generally.

to wit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwaNRWMN-F4&feature=player_embedded

We are at war with 2 Islamic countries …

We’re at war in two Islamic countries. We’re supporting Muslims in each. Should they consider their countries to have been invaded by Christians?

These folks have a masterful turn of mind: Stop the War on Prayer is a magnificent riposte.

Seconded. Tosses their pseudo-piety right back in their faces, with a wisp of parodic teasing re the “War on Christmas.”

Ron Paul is correct about neocons and their “ill-conceived preventative wars.” Obama might not OPENLY promote Islamaphobia to bolster support for his escalating war in Afghanistan but his murky convoluted rationale also appears to be based on some theoretical preventative necessity.

We might as well acknowledge the fact that President Obama is also a neocon.

Now that bin Laden has all the recruitment material he needs, compliments of Fox and other Murdoch vehicles, the spineless christ-tards creep forth to bleat and mewl for tolerance.

Like it or not, there appears to be a strong element of that in Iraq and Afghanistan. Add to that, we are sabre rattling for Iran.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk

Got sent that video earlier, it’s a propaganda film from the 40s…some of the points it raises speak far too well to how people on the far right are attempting to portray others for publicity or political gain.

I’ve discovered that is pretty much true of all things mainstream. Ken Burns documentaries seem pretty good when they are about subjects with which one is unfamiliar. Whenever they broach a topic I know well I’ve found that factual errors abound.

It is difficult to strike a balance between quality control and pandering to the lowest common denominator and mainstream media obviously favors the latter (or it would not be mainstream).

You’ve missed my point entirely. What you seem more concerned with now is winning your point regardless of what happens.

Perhaps you can make your point specifically.

from elsewhere:
“Miss USA (Arab Muslim American) is opposed to this mosque”
but you can safely ignore what Muslim women say. Muslims do.

me: It’s true that Muslim women are frequently ignored by men. That’s what makes Grover Norquist’s perdicament so thoroughly entertaining. Wait till the D-baggers find out they’ve been buying small government clap-trap from a man that literally sleeps with their perceived enemy- a woman that should be referred to as a “non-belligerent combatant.”

well…anyway- i thought it was good.

Yes. They were invaded by Christians. Dubya called it a crusade. Wh was the oustspoken General who said our God is Bigger/Better/Righter than their God? Find a Congressman who is not a Christian. We have Nat’l Day of Prayer and A Prayer Breakfast. Members of Congress beholden to C Street Christian Fundamentalists. Gubner of S Carolina went on a prayer walk to Argentina. Republican Party Chapters call for an Officially designated Christian Nation. Christians all.

Except Obama the Socialist Muslim. /s

-it was muslims not strippers who hijacked a plane and crashed it into the WTC

Are you certain about that? I recall that the hijackers visited strip clubs just before they carried out their mission. Receiving final orders? Perhaps Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri have been in this country all along disguised as strippers.

Christian Warrior General Boykin was likely not an abberation. Recall too that Erik Prince of Blackwater is a big time warrior for Christ (as he lined his pockets). Then, there were all those Christian US Atty’s recruited from Diamond Miner Pat Robertson’s Liberty University. Christians all around.

You think Iraqi’s don’t believe they were attacked by Christians?

Ha :)

That “element of it” you mention are the ones we’re fighting. They use that to peel off supporters from those we’re fighting with, similarly to haw it’s being used to divide people here. The point is, we are not at war with Islam and Islam is not at war with us, no matter how much some people want that to be true.

We are at war with 2 Islamic countries; Islam is still stuck in the 6the century with a culture that is mysogonistic, practice stonings, honor killings, etc;

I was going to defer comment when I saw the responses of others to your ill-informed comments, but since you responded to them with basically the same ignorance as before, I will echo and add to what they said:
* We are at war *in* two Islamic countries, fighting with mainstream Islamic factions against an extremist minority Islamic faction.
* If you really think that “Islam is still stuck in the 6the century…,” then you plainly do not know much about modern Islam as it exists around the world. It is as if you characterized all of Christianity on the basis of the Branch Davidians.

But you seem intent on making your ignorance clear to everyone, and don’t seem inclined to open your mind at all, so you probably won’t listen to me, either.

Bob in AZ

We’re not flying a Christian flag and this isn’t a Christian country. I’m sure you can tailor the question and parse the answers to make it look like Iraqis think we’re a Christian invader, but I doubt anyone outside the small group of morons you find residing anywhere (or in any army) consider these to be religious wars.

in response to 18
“Let’s see Beck, Hannity, O’Reilly, Fox & Friends, etal tap dance their way out of that one”. Dont forget to include ADL (fighting bigotry and extremism) and Elie Wiesel to include in your list.

(Pat Robertson’s “university” is Regent – Liberty was Jerry Falwell’s baby)

The ‘media…’ I’ve gone to referring to them as USG propaganda outlets.

aka The Ministries of Truth.

Jane, it is not a Mosque, it is an Islamic Cultural Center that has a mosque located in it. As long as we accept and use the right wing’s terminology, and not try to counter it with the truth, how can we on the left continue to complain when they continue to win the pr wars. I see way too many progressives calling it a Mosque, it is not. There’s nothing wrong with Mosque’s, but given the fear Americans experience with the word, we need to reshape the debate by changing the terminology.

I have Muslim friends who are not that much concerned to have a mosque or recreation center at the proposed location. Their main complaint is the Hypocrisy of the so called patriotic Americans (the wingnuts), Human rights preacher as Eli Wiesel and anti bigotry champions ADL.

Find a Congressman who is not a Christian.

Keith Ellison. But granted, the exception proves the rule. And then there are numerous Jewish Congress Critters.

Pete Stark as well (from his wiki)

Stark is the first openly atheist member of Congress, as announced by the Secular Coalition for America.[36] Stark acknowledged his atheism in response to an SCA questionnaire sent to public officials in January 2007.

On September 20, 2007, Stark reaffirmed his atheism by making a public announcement in front of the Humanist Chaplaincy at Harvard, the Harvard Law School Heathen Society, and various other atheist, agnostic, secular, humanist, and nonreligious groups.[37] The American Humanist Association named him their 2008 Humanist of the Year.[38]

Paul has his moments of lucidity when it comes to foreign policy.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I take your point to be that the developers of the Islamic community center are acting antithetical to their desire to unite the community. I get that argument. But what compromise on their part would unite the community, given the tactics of the puppeteers manipulating base public fears and prejudices? I disagree that compromising and moving the center to an alternative site will do more to unite the community than standing up to the demagogues in the name of religious freedom for all. I believe the consequence would be the exact opposite. It would encourage the demagogues to continue fanning the fire.

You are moving away from topic. In any event, just because there are backwards elements to other religions doesn’t excuse Islam.
Branch Davidians, Christians, Amish didn’t fly planes into the WTC. They were ALL MUSLIMS! Don’t be an[Edited by Moderator. Do not insult other commenters]

I am an atheist so all worship of supernatural beings is nonsense to me.
That said, when women are viewed as less equal and must be wrapped up in bhurkas, when stonings still occur, when fatwas demanding death for someone that insults the faith or Mohammed are issued, excutions for adultery, etc, etc, THEY FUCKING OPERATE IN THE 6th century. This is a backward assed religion in need of reformation, PERIOD!

Sometimes it’s best to concede a point, as the Pope did with nuns decades ago in Auschwitz. If all you are doing is harm by trying do what you perceive is good, perhaps it’s time to reassess. Sometime you win ultimately by showing your ability to be flexible in your plans.

My apologies to bobschacht. Just got a little heated.

It’s nice to see someone on the other side concerned about a War on Prayer, even though it is only because it sticks a finger in the eye of their perceived “enemies.” Once the mosque is built or moved, they will go back to not giving a crap about “prayer.”

Muslims will need to up their game if they want to be in the US. It’s rough and tumble here. If you can’t take a symbol of your religion sitting in a jar of piss as an art piece, you’ve got no business being here.

We protest, we say what we think. There are no sacred cows here. If you can’t take the heat of hearing people with opposing views to yours, you won’t do well here.

If you don’t like a leader of your religion held up to ridicule, like, say, Franklin Graham, you really ought to consider being somewhere else.

If you think you can “build bridges” by calling those who don’t agree with what you are doing “haters,” then, maybe you ought to rethink if the US is the place for you.

We don’t pull punches here. If we think Bush is a war fucking criminal, we say so. If we think the leader of a religion is a pediphile, like the Pope, we say so.

This is freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly in action.

That’s why we don’t have Ayatollah’s tell us what to do. That’s why we don’t give a crap what the President or mayor tell us what to do or don’t do. Or, if they tell us what being “good” is. We don’t give a crap what they think is good.

If we don’t like the war, we’re going to raise hell. If we don’t like the mosque being close to Ground Zero, we’re going to raise hell.

And, it is in the finest traditions of America.

Can not believe I am saying this but MSNBC’s Morning Joe and Mika have been doing an incredible job staying focused on this issue. Ripping up Newt Gingrich’s comments, the hatred on the streets towards Muslims, Glenn Beck, Rush, Sarah and team flamming the hatred. How this is the dark under belly of the U.s. Morning Joe is on target on this critical issue. Again can not believe I am saying this

They brought up Daisy Kahn’s interview on This Week and the Rabbi from the Jewish Community Center who Daisy and team have been consulting about the development of the Muslim Community Center from the inception. Their plan is to have conferences on comparative religions, debates, swimming pool, etc. The Mosque part of the conference center is part of the community center. From what Daisy said on “This Week” with Christiane Amanpour the focus of the Cordoba House will be similar to the focus of the Jewish Community Center in New York.

Daisy said that the hatred that is being fomented is like a “metastisized anti semitism”

That clip is amazing. Wondering if it has been played on national T.V?

Sorry unable to link. This is an important listen. About the Mosque/community center, cultural center

August 22, 2010| Conservative, Constitution, Islam, al Qaeda | Scott Horton

Suhail Khan, Senior Fellow for Christian-Muslim Understanding at the Institute for Global Engagement, discusses the letter he co-signed with five other Muslim Republicans that takes his party to task for bashing the “Ground Zero Mosque,” the popular anti-Muslim sentiment that turns traditional Conservatism on its head, why the terrorists win if we abandon the Bill of Rights, how religious bigotry adds credence to al Qaeda’s assertion that the U.S. is at war with Islam, the remarkably-ordinary majority of American Muslims and how activism within the Republican party can effect change.

MP3 here. (29:04)