The commentary regarding the Lincoln/Halter race continues, ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous.
“What happened in this race also gives the lie to the insufferable excuse we’ve been hearing for the last 18 months from countless Obama defenders: namely, if the Senate doesn’t have 60 votes to pass good legislation, it’s not Obama’s fault because he has no leverage over these conservative Senators. It was always obvious what an absurd joke that claim was; the very idea of The Impotent, Helpless President, presiding over a vast government and party apparatus, was laughable. But now, in light of Arkansas, nobody should ever be willing to utter that again with a straight face. Back when Lincoln was threatening to filibuster health care if it included a public option, the White House could obviously have said to her: if you don’t support a public option, not only will we not support your re-election bid, but we’ll support a primary challenger against you. Obama’s support for Lincoln did not merely help; it was arguably decisive, as The Washington Post documented today.
Just for kicks someone should put together a post with links to quotes from everyone who not only swallowed the “60 vote” Kool-Aid, but used it to beat anyone over the head who said otherwise. If you decide to do it, cross-post it on The Seminal or send me a link. That’s something I would love to read.
Ari Berman: “[A] lot of base Democrats stuck with Lincoln out of residual loyalty or because they just never got to like Halter, who ran a focused, disciplined campaign but was unable to shed the icy and overly ambitious image that surrounds him.”
Sounds like it came out of Blanche’s oppo department. Democrats “stuck with Blanche” because she had a gazillion dollars pouring in from the Chamber of Commerce and other shadowy organizations, $3 million in PAC money from the likes of Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Exxon-Mobil and Wal-Mart, the support of the Democratic Party, the current President of the United States Barack Obama, and former President of the United States (and Arkansas native) Bill Clinton, who all were willing to demagogue labor’s support from Halter in an anti-labor state.
Apologies to those who found Halter “icy.” Jesus Christ wasn’t available.
It’s incredible how the complete imbalance of power on the two sides, and the alignment of the most powerful man in the world with the largest and richest lobbying entity in the world, is rarely mentioned.
Chris Matthews:
What worries me are those who try to manipulate democracy, the pressure groups, the money people who’d like all elections to come down to who can buy the most advertising on television, most of it negative advertising.
What gave me hope last night is that voters don’t like to be pushed around any more that I do. A lot of labor money went into the Arkansas Senate primary and produced a lot of drama — and a real hero. The kind of stand-alone, what-side-are-you-on woman celebrated in that pro-labor film Norma Rae. The irony is that the heroine, the Norma Rae last night in Little Rock, was the Democratic Senator Labor tried to beat, Norma Rae’s name in this picture is Blanche Lincoln.
I guess my memory is getting fuzzy, because I don’t recall “stand alone” Norma Rae getting millions of dollars of support from the Chamber of Commerce in the form of a racist ad blitz:
It really does show how broken our entire political debate is when shady ad-hoc groups like “Americans for Job Security” can drop millions in support of Blanche Lincoln and somehow this outweighs the millions of dollars in small donations that tens of thousands of ordinary Americans gave to Bill Halter.
At least Red State notes that Lincoln’s victory is a Pyrrhic one.
The real story, from the progressive side, is that when Accountability Now was talking to challenger candidates across the country, we didn’t know how much hard money collective organizations could raise online in any given race independent of party support. I guessed $3 million, but couldn’t say with certainty or point to a track record. In the end, the ActBlue tally was $1.2 million and MoveOn raised about $3 million.
Strong candidates don’t want to risk their careers running against incumbents unless they know they have a good shot at winning — if you shoot the king, you better kill the king. Being able to point to $4.2 million in hard money donations in the future is going to be a very powerful recruiting tool for the grassroots. We couldn’t do that 10 years ago, before it was possible to quickly message to millions of potential supporters without the intercession of a commentariat who think Blanche Lincoln bears some sort of resemblance to “Norma Rae.”
Prior to the Halter race, it was thought that labor was the only progressive entity capable of funding challenges against Democratic incumbents. Labor’s presence was a mixed blessing in a state like Arkansas, in that it pulled big Chamber of Commerce money into the race once it was mistakenly cast as labor vs. Lincoln. Bill Clinton quite successfully used labor’s support for Lincoln against Halter when he came to Little Rock to campaign for her, which many believe gave her the margin of success.
But most of labor’s money came in the form of independent expenditures — the $4.2 million in hard money that went directly to Halter, the money that directly funded his campaign, came from small online donors. Anybody commenting on the outcome of the Lincoln/Halter race who doesn’t understand the significance of that figure, and what it means for recruiting and funding progressive challengers in the future, is missing a rather large elephant in the middle of the room.
Blanche Lincoln sent Norma Rae’s job to China. I think Norma would be delighted by the new possibilities.




159 Comments

Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About FDL Action
One other thing about Matthews’ program I noted last night — watch the whole ball of wax for this, not just the clip — he sounded a bit wistful, like he really wanted a shot at PA against Specter. I don’t think most viewers were thinking about Matthews as a rumored potential candidate some months ago.
Which makes me wonder if the White House through intermediaries told Matthews to stay out of the race, and the Halter/Lincoln outcome now makes Matthews think he dodged a big waste of his time.
Oh, for a media that wasn’t compromised and co-opted so many different ways to Sunday…
Can’t stand Tweety. Waste of the time space continuum. Comparison to Norma Rae is beyond comprehension and the real Norma Rae is spinning in her grave. Ridiculous. Yes, Betty Crocker Lincoln sent Norma Rae’s job to third world wage slaves a long time ago.
And did Halter REALLY lose this race? I have no trust in our voting system anymore. Even excepting the fact that the Garland County polling places were mostly closed, I have no trust that Blanche actually got the majority votes. Seriously: why should I believe that??
And he’s a Republican. Duh.
Right on, Jane.
So please tell me I’ve got this right;
We may have been defeated in Arkansas, but we’ve scared the shit out of the enemy.
We’re getting the hang of this, and we’re going to be more successful in the future.
Am I missing anything?
The best thing to hapen for the “Democrats” in the current Senate is the election of Scott Brown so they could claim that excuse to the gullible and lazy. That’s why they didn’t press harder for Franken to be seated, it didn’t have anything to do with Coleman’s sore loser challenge. That’s why they tried to avoid seating Burris and that had nothing to do with Blagojevich. That’s why they didn’t help Coakley more. The Democrats want an excuse to pander to their true masters while having a “plausible” reason to avoid the change we were promised over and over. They LOVE Lincoln. She’s a reliable pro corporate vote and has no chance of winning in November. But it’s all kabuki. If it wasn’t her, it would be Nelson or Baucus or Bayh…
I like that idea, but I’m pretty sure it would crash the internet.
Like Glenn Greenwald said in his article today, Blanche Lincoln political career is over, no one thinks she will win in the general.
Mission Accomplish.
Other Blue Dogs now know this fate awaits them
Thanks Jane.
You could also add that some times Tweety just says really stupid shit.
Jane, thank you and thank you again for keeping the focus where it needs to be. More and better candidates, we have no chance otherwise.
I hope Labor sticks to their guns and sends a clear message to the WH and its apologists by refusing to put boots on the ground for politicians like Lincoln. She’s on her own now, talk about a waste of money in November when her defeat is a virtual certainty.
The lies that are being spun are being effectively countered, but not often enough in the media. You go there. Tell it like it is.
I don’t regret for a moment my small contribution to the Halter cause.
I wouldn’t say it quite that way — I’d say we have proven that a new tool in our arsenal (online fundraising) is capable of funding a campaign to the tune of $4.2 million, independent of union money, and we’ll be able to use that in the future.
Don’t forget, this was a primary. We could probably do much better for a general election.
And THAT was in the middle of the Great Recession. Imagine what we can do when we get back to work! Hmm, could that be cause for some of the slow-walking we’ve seen?
Yes, maybe Big Labor has finally had its wake-up call that this administration is not its friend.
Thanks Jane, so true.
I sure hope so but they’re gonna have to show me by actions.
It’s great to have a data point for the capacity for online political fundraising! Pretty good ballpark estimate beforehand too.
Any idea how long $4.2 million per entreé hold-up before all the small donors can’t afford to donate anymore?
Once we get a candidate into office, how do we hold them accountable to all the money we raise for them?
Maybe this is one reason why this administration is so averse to creating good jobs. Less disposable income = less money available to challenge entrenched interests. If people have to work more hours and devote every penny to just getting by, that’s leaves us less time to keep up and less money to invest for change.
About the only way is to throw them to the curb next election cycle if they climb onto the corporate train.
AND when and as more and more citizens decide to direct their funds away from the central party machines and veal pen fundraisers!
If we create more jobs that means we’ll eventually have to start making stuff here again and that’s the last thing the neoliberals want.
Yes, I agree. Those figures are hard to beat. Once again: thanks Jane for leading the effort here. It’s good to see final outcomes, even if we didn’t get quite what we wanted.
And yes, I feel that we sent a message to “Dems.” Why else was Rahm yelling at us AGAIN? If progressives have no power, then why does power yell at us DFHs to STFU and to STOP doing what we’re doing?
Methinks Rahmbama has a something bugging him…
In other words, welcome to the “big time” ‘doggies!
Go, Jane!
As usual, couldn’t agree with you more.
P.S. Don’t diss me, but I was the ultimate Disco Diva back in the day… I like the nightlife, I like to party, I like to disco alllll night looonggg… and I’m no feather-brain, m’dear! Different strokes & all.
I wish we could find a different term since “liberal” is the last thing they are. But I guess it’s suitable since neocons were, by all definitions, radical rather than conservative.
Hey, I’ve never dissed anybody for liking disco. Just wasn’t my bag is all.
EDIT: As for feather brained, there’s no denying there was a lot of that going on! I should have said present company excepted. There were a lot of jelly brained people in MY crowd.
From the Washington Post, and quoted in Glenn’s excellent piece today:
I work almost primarily with the poor African-Americans in the inner-city. They are understandably very proud that one of their own surmounted seemingly impossible odds to become the first black President. When we talk about the failures of his administration to make meaningful changes in their lives, most of them continue to blame Congress, saying that the President is really trying to do the things he promised, although more and more are reluctantly agreeing that he has sold them out too.
But one of the reasons, according to the New York Times article by Matt Bai yesterday, that Obama is indifferent to other groups that make up the Democratic base is 1) he feels they have nowhere else to go 2) he (mistakenly) feels he can sway more independents with his center right conservatism and 3) he can mobilize a mass of people that ordinarily don’t vote, primarily African-Americans.
I mention here repeatedly that it is important that, other things being equal, we support credible African-American (or Hispanic) candidates for office to deal with point number 3, and make sure that candidate has a strong record as a progressive, in order to take care of 1).
Obama’s popularity with minorities, he believes, is his ace in the hole. Neutralize this, and you have a horse race — and I’m referring both to challenges in congressional primaries and (please God, make this happen) a viable challenger in the Democratic Presidential primary.
Obama will be vulnerable, I believe. It would be a shame if progressives gave in to defeatism, and refused to think of mounting a primary challenge from the left to, if nothing else, make Obama defend his execrable record in the White House.
Of course, Matthews’s ridiculous analysis could have been worse. He could have deftly compared Blanche to Abraham Lincoln. Afterall, they both share the same last name.
Yo ! Wazzup, reader ?
The term was resurrected from the dustbin of history in the 70s by the Chicago School of Friedman advocates. They called his “shock doctrine” theories neoliberal, privatize everything and dismantle all social programs. When the DLC was formed those theories were at the core.
Franky, I’m surprised he didn’t. Honestly has anybody looked into Tweety’s connections with the ownership of NBC? He can’t have gotten where he is on talent.
When you can accurately predict how the economy will fare in the future in this country, you let us know. Most people I know wouldn’t be so audacious as to claim that kind of clairvoiance.
Online fundraising has increased steadily and dramatically over the past 6 years. If people can’t afford to do it any more, there will be much bigger problems than political fundraising.
Also, nobody likes Blanche Lincoln.
Thanks for the explanation. I was aware of some but not all of it. :)
Just yanking yer chain of course. I had a good giggle last night but too tired to comment. I really enjoy dancing; Disco just happened to be the “in” thing. I traveled around the world in the late 1970s, and it was rather amazing how HUGE of an impact “Saturday Night Fever” had almost everywhere. I’d be way out in some “forgotten” corner of the planet, and lo & behold: there would be a disco with Sat Night Fever embellishments & music!! What was I to do but boogie on??? Had to keep up the side, ya know.
Couldn’t agree more. It’s sad that BHO has sold out minorities; the disappointment factor has got to hurt.
That said, I still find many white Dems finding ways to “excuse” BHO that are similar to what you report. In fact, at an event last night with mostly lefties in attendance, many white folks kept saying gibberish like: Well, BHO is TRYING (my response: I didn’t hire at POTUS to “try;” I hired a POTUS to “produce.”), or another classic: Well, I think BHO really does CARE (my response: really? why? Why do you feel that way? what has BHO done to demonstrate that he “cares”?).
In most cases, I got stricken looks and sort of scared shrugs. People don’t want to face how badly they were FOOLED and that they’ve been sold out to the highest bidder.
Since it was a work function, I could only say so much, but I did what I could to disabuse these rather nice people of the notion that BHO had their “interests” in mind at any time.
Saturday Night Fever is only half of the reason I hate John Travolta. When it came out, my favorite radio station went disco. A couple of years later when Urban Cowboy was released, my next favorite radio station went country. That man does NOT want to meet me in person. >:-[
‘Ari Berman’ — I have never forgotten his Nation piece back in 2005 — I was furious with his bs back.
Geez, what a crock o’ shit that was.
For my money, this is the most important passage in the Greenwald piece:
How long before Greenwald, or Hamsher, or some other well-known Democrat utters those magical and infamous two words: third party?
You bring up an excellent point, very, very good one which needs to be a key component of the next progressive push to hold legislators accountable.
We must be asking the minority communities for their votes, and we must do via proxies who are well-known to them and have their trust. And the same proxies also need to point out that they have been let down and taken for granted by the folks who were supposed to deliver change.
Blanche Lincoln is sure as hell not change any African, Asian, or Hispanic American voted for.
I’m depressed, but hopeful. I gave $25 to the Halter campaign and I’ll do it again should a CANDIDATE come along that I believe in. I vote with my pocketbook and I won’t be giving money to the party in the future, but directly. Thanks for speaking out Jane. I still <3 you.
I don’t think either of those will be the prime mover behind a 3rd party. Can’t just attach one’s name behind a concept then leave the work to others, not that Jane or Glenn would do that. Forming a 3rd party would be a full time job for a number of years. Look at the Greens. When Nader bailed the party stalled. What is involved in being more successful at party building than they were?
I’d be willing to bet that the birth of a viable 3rd party won’t come from the intertoobz. Not that the concept isn’t already out there but real party building requires lots of boots on the ground.
Guess it’s OK for wealthy individuals like Meg Whitman or Carly Fiorina to use their wealth to get elected, or people like Blanche Lincoln who do big money’s bidding in DC and reap the rewards. But when working people organize their individual contributions through their union or other interest group to impact elections, they’re “buying” them.
Do the numbers, okay? If we had a government structured more like that of the UK, we might be able to pull off a spoiler role. How do you do it without that structure?
And if a third party has to win critical mass — 50%+1 — in order to take control of the White House or Congress, how do you successfully peel away people from BOTH parties so as to avoid the Nader 2000 situation? Let me know when you have that credibly figured out, because the progressive insurgents of the Democratic Party talked about it in November 2004. That’s why we had Howard Dean as chair of the DNC, why the 2006 change in majority, why Obama won. But unfortunately, we forgot to make sure the bloody DNC rules were changed to prevent the freaking White House and its staffers from co-opting the DNC once they were elected.
You want a faster way to get to 50%+1, you have to hollow out the Democratic Party institution from the inside and change its operations and rules, finish the job that Howard Dean started.
Do we have IRV yet? Or any other voting mechanism that would allow a third party to be something other than a spoiler?
Failing that, do you have $10 billion lying around to start a major nationwide party from scratch?
Or is the idea to “heighten the contradictions” and allow Republicans to win on the idea that we want them to speed up the wrecking of America so that the scales will finally of American eyes and the masses will rise up in revolt at last? (See also: Bush, Gore, 2000, Nader.)
Not to throw cold water on “we’ll get them next year,” but I really hope Halter’s failure will bring home to those who really should be in the radical camp the failure of liberal pluralism and of the idea that workers can compete with firms in buying an outcome. Most working class people have a very thin margin between staying in one’s house and being evicted, fixing the old car and not being able to get to work, etc. If progress depends on raising cash the corporations (and both of the corrupt parties) win. If progress depends on getting people into the street workers win.
Spot on – and here in Mass that was the talk before Brown. 800,000 of us stayed home to send a message to Obama that “60″ was an obvious con when he really did not want real change – just the appearance of trying for change as he did corporate welfare – as in his farcical support for a public option.
Now a challenge from the left in the south – and they still do not get the message and seem to want a war with the unions. Obama will finish the destruction of the Democratic Party as anything other than GOP-Light.
Halter was poor at hiding his ambition – so what. He said a day before the election he planned to screw the unions on card check – but did pledge to go for better workplace rules. He was not the best – but Blanche did not deserve to win – only friend Bill Clinton and new buddy Obama bringing out the black vote saved her. That said, she is a hell of a lot better than the GOP fellow. It is getting to be like the 50′s when no matter how many northern Dems you elected you knew the real power was in the hands of the Southern Dems and the GOP – and racism and corporate control was going to be around for a while longer. Indeed since FDR, except for the 60′s – and the Clinton attempt to change health for real with a budget that actually hit the rich a bit – it is hard to recall a moment when politics led to change ATTEMPTED OR MADE that a progressive could do more than give a weak smile about.
So it can go on indefinitely at least at this level, and the trend is toward the ever-increasing? Where’s the money coming from?
Aren’t there studies and trends for discretionary income continually going down over time? We know that wages have stagnated for 30-years, and fixed-expenses as a proportion of income have gone up (health insurance, house payments, other debt-service). Or at least I read a lot of articles here about those conditions.
That coupling seems like its contradictory, not complimentary? It sort of seems like either discretionary income must actually be on the rise, and always trending that direction, or the capacity for donating must be trending down, because donations come from discretionary income?
I’m sure I must be missing something simple that resolves the contradiction.
Any ideas on the other question?:
It seems like money superbly spent if we can actually get some political action out of them, but isn’t it at all concerning that we might throw all that money at someone, and it results in just another D.C. insider exploiting us for cash?
Though I guess if discretionary income is constantly on the rise, then it doesn’t really matter, because we’ve got money to burn?
Jane is working on a multigenerational strategy, trends be damned.
The California new primary law with a general election in June called a primary and top two in a run off in Nov ends the ability of the grassroots to influence party choice – indeed ends 3rd party.
Grassroots campaigns know that. It requires more work, more face to face. Almost like going back to before tv campaign ads in the 50s. It can be done because I’ve done it for a congressional campaign. We didn’t win but we got more votes than any challenger in 30+ years. Shoestring budget, no name recognition and lots of volunteers. If ya want it bad enough there’s a way and if ya don’t win the first time, there’s another one 2 years down the road.
it comes from “classical” or original liberalism, the philosophy originally had a strong component of laissez faire capitalism and douchebaggery.
Technically the Democratic Party became a party of what would be called Social Liberalism or Modern Liberalism, except we aren’t allowed to use the word social because it scares the idjits, which added in the overriding importance of social justice. Now the Democratic Party is pretty much classically liberal or neoclassical-liberal, which is too long so neoliberal.
Once again the voters in CA have fucked themselves. Wonder how many years before they figure this one out? Took ‘em a long time to figure out Prop 13 wasn’t so hot.
Short a revolution, that’s what it takes. Gotta be willing to work for the long haul. There is no instant gratification in politics.
Don’t the trends where the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, and more and more of us become the poor, become even more important over the long haul?
Or am I mistaken about the trend? Are the poor getting richer, and the rich getting poorer? My tea leaves must be broken.
Also, too Gumball never seems to shut up long enough for anyone to answer one of his inane questions.
Thanks Jane. Keep the heat on!
$4.2 million
That much money could have funded community health clinics and health funds like the Ithaca Health Alliance. Or it could have gotten people off the streets and into homes. Or it could have started cooperative businesses that give people jobs. A cafe that employees ten people could be started with what? $40k, $100k?
Instead, this money, and the $10 million in union money, is just flushed down the toilet in the hopes of someday getting a rich white guy elected, who might give us (by decree), health care, homes, better schools and jobs.
To form a third party, we would need broad grass roots support and lots of money from a big donor (aka Citizen’s United). I wonder if George Soros has thought about this?
Yes they do. The more who fall into poverty make the numbers dangerous for the wealthy. Simplistic, but Soylent Green reflects some attributes quite well, imo, the masses of unemployed, food shortages, the vast numbers of homeless.
The income gap is ever widening.
Back to work
Namaste
Hourly wages have fallen in the US every year since 1970, with the exception of the last two Clinton years. That means that more than 70% of the population is becoming less and less able to take part in the “let’s buy us a lobbyist” game (they actually never were in that game). Who does that leave to advance “progressive” causes? Upper middle class liberals.
See, but you’re forgetting all the marketing consultants, advertising firms, and tv affiliates that were enriched with all that money due to the creation and broadcasting of ads.
It’s not entirely anti-stimulative. It stimulates the economy surrounding Big Media. See, it’s a double-whammy for us. We might be able to buy our own politician, and in the process buy our own media outlet too. Well, until the media outlets figure out that our politician wants to cut down their profits, or until the media outlet convinces the politician not to be ours anymore.
A reply also to Rayne and Southerndragon. I’m well aware of the challenges and the risks — one of the risks at this moment in time would be racial division — but surely we can at least have a discussion about it at FDL of all places, no? A discussion that doesn’t end when someone yells Nader!!! (whom I voted for in 2000, in NY, and proudly so.)
I don’t have time for a full discussion, perhaps I’ll write a diary, but for now a few points…
- I haven’t seen anyone present a credible plan-strategy for unlocking the Democratic Party from the grip of Wall Street and corporate power. Breaking away from the Democratic party might well be the least bad option.
- I’m not one of those who believes Obama is as bad as Bush, of course he isn’t (except perhaps on civil liberties) but the country continues its steep downward trajectory.
– the Democratic Congress wouldn’t be letting a Republican president get away with some of the things Obama is getting away with.
- If you date the modern progressive movement’s birth at 2002, then we’re only eight years into say a twenty-six year plan to take over the party (to use the Goldwater to Reagan model) so I might be inclined to keep plugging away if there were real progress being made. I don’t see it.
- there is third-party activity at the local level; it need not be national.
- unpredictable things happen. The Berlin Wall fell, so two could the two party system. Let’s say Lou Dobbs ran as an independent and split the GOP. There could be an opening for a progressive, or some other scenario that won’t seem so crazy in retrospect.
- I’m a voter and a citizen, not a political strategist, so when I long for a third party, it’s not so much because I know it’s in the long term interests of the country but because I can’t stand voting for the lesser of corporate-imperial evils, because I hated to be even vaguely aligned with a party that supports war crimes.
All for now.
That’s the thing. It takes money, sustained effort, and time to build a national party that actually has a shot at being anything other than a spoiler, particularly in America where the voting laws are geared to preserve the status quo.
And the problem with rooting for the most conservative people to win, in the hopes that they wreck everything immediately and cause the masses to rise up, is that it didn’t work in 2000 when we tried it and it really didn’t work in the 1930s when the German Communists got behind Adolf because they figured he’d immediately wreck things so badly that the people would toss him and then turn to the Commies for leadership (“After Hitler, Us!”).
I would most sincerely hope that FDL will recognize the reality that following the mid terms, the American working class will be hit with a full out attack on the last vestiges of our safety net, and made to suffer debilitating austerity measures. Currently the introduction of similar measures in the EU and Britain is being greeted with a sobering sense of deep injustice expressing itself in a mounting number of protests and strikes.
(http://www.zcommunications.org/class-struggles-heat-up-in-greece-by-dimitris-fasfalis
Our government will meet the growing popular dissatisfaction with a drumbeat for war with Iran and an expansion of troop levels into Afghanistan, threatening both Iran and enraging Pakistan’s moslems. World public opinion of the US will sink to below Bush levels. I think we’re looking at some very bad times. Long term strategies may prove inadequate to so much as ding the impending reality.
Ah, I gotcha!
So constantly bleeding the poor of their already meager resources, and pushing more people that direction by getting them to try and outspend the rich to buy politicians is just a way to accelerate the number of people who are impoverished, so we will finally take swift corrective action that doesn’t rely on purchasing our government?
Now, that is some 11-dimensional chess!
One would think there might be a way to get to that last part without impoverishing everybody first? If only there were some relatively cheap and effective means to organize lots of people to take some kind of political action…. hmmm.
I’m not a heighten the contradictions guy. I don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good but I have trouble abiding crappy.
But ultimately the prospect of a Palin presidency can’t shut down the conversation, not least because Dems are pretty damn good at losing to Republicans all by themselves. Speaking of, Gallup has Obama at 44/48 today.
And increasing repression here at home. Also. IMO. Unfortunately.
But why use it for any candidate in any way shape or form associated with the Democrats? For heavens sake. Raise money for your own party and put up your own candidates. You won’t turn the Democrats from the inside. You have to kill them from the outside. And a candidate under your, untainted umbrella would be at +10% in polling from day one. At least. You’ve got the media exposure to do this. So what are you waiting for?
Yes, absolutely correct. I remember reading somewhere that what the conservatives took away from the civil rights and anti-war movements was that middle class folks had too much free time to get involved in things, and that that ethic of involvement was being passed on to their kids. They had to find a way to make day-to-day life harder, more stressful, and leave the people less time to organize, object, complain, etc.
BTW: What was Halter’s final margin of defeat? (How many votes?) And why hasn’t he sued over the Garland County voter suppression issue?
Not quite. It will meet discontent with combat troops on the streets of your cities, with shoot to kill orders in the cause of protecting plutocrats. I’m not joking.
One more point: the idea of a independent progressive populist movement sounds great but unless it’s truly independent from the Democratic party, co-option is inevitable.
Well I guess there we have it. The FDL political strategy explained. The upper-class with a guilt-complex are going to successfully organize to pool all the resources they earn from their employers to buy our government back from them, and their employers will put up with this for some reason yet to be determined.
I guess that begs the question. When the rich-liberals are finally in-charge, will they actually let the poor into the government? Oh, wait. I think I might be living through that exact scenario right now. Let me take a look around and get back to you.
Here! here!
Jane, heard your remarks about the Commission looking at Social Security cuts the other night when you were on the “ED SHOW”.
The Public is going to be hysterical when this thing surfaces.
The Chicago Gang in the WH are going to be moving back to Chicago soon.
That’s one of my beefs with the 3rd-party agenda. There’s not a whole lot to keep it from becoming the liberal Tea Party (astroturf) in being co-opted by the Democrats (after all, they have gobs of cash). Pretty much the only way seems to rest on strict authoritarian control of the New Party.
I’m sure that sounds appealing to authoritarians.
It’s a whole lot of work that will take a long time, and require lots of fundamental shifts in politics. From voting systems on down the line.
If we’re going to go to all that trouble, why start with tinkering at the margins? Why not just put all that effort into making a fundamentally more democratic government?
Many years ago I was inspired by Barry Goldwater and decided to work for his election as President. Lived in Bristol Township, PA (Levittown), which had a 3-1 Democratic registration advantage. About 30 of us worked door-to-door, making phone calls, etc. and Goldwater nearly won the township at a time when Johnson got about 60% of the vote nationwide.
The point is that a small group of dedicated people can make a difference if they continue the fight, promote good ideas, and are just and honest.
In the ensuing decades as a newspaper editor, then publisher, I have seen dozens of examples of small groups growing in influence through smart, hard work. And I have grown to be a libertarian progressive.
You are to be commended for fighting the fight and I hope you don’t give up. Remember, the serfs endured the elites for more than a thousand years before anything changed, and even that revolution led to wage slavery for most of us.
Because you have to control the existing government before you can make it more democratic?
I agree. You need voting reform. But you need a third party people can trust (for real) and vote for, in the interim. Of course it wouldn’t be easy.
“You are to be commended for fighting the fight and I hope you don’t give up. Remember, the serfs endured the elites for more than a thousand years before anything changed, and even that revolution led to wage slavery for most of us.”
That was before the land bristled with nuclear weapons. Time is no longer on the side of history.
Tweety’s lucky that the real Norma Rae died last September. She would slap the taste right out of his mouth.
As opposed to one primarily funded by the GOP.
So, your constant harangueing that WE/Jane/whoever should form a 3rd party is about giving YOU an option that YOU want and not about an effective political process???
Gee, thanks. Way to contribute, dood.
Yes, but that ‘party’ is blatantly co-opted by the GOP to pander to the racist, bigoted, hatey folks they daren’t normally speak to directly. A genuine third party co-opted by no one, standing for the values this blog supports. Single payer health care (no discussion). Imprisoning Bush torturers, and enablers (and Holder’s heroes where necessary). Ending all legalised corruption in politics (more jail terms for the guilty too). Banksters on trial too. 80% to income tax bracket (over 1 million) – no cap on earnings paying into social security. Shall I go on? A party that stands for this and stands clear of the Democrats. People want it. People want someone who will do this. People recognise that these policies are in the interests of the vast majority. If they know where to vote for it, and have the opportunity to do so, my guess is they will. And the media can be by-passed with increasing ease with youtube and a million other internet possibilities.
I don’t mean trying to elect people, a very brief period with COpirg (and five years as a college political science professor) exposed me to the theory that workers can match corporate dollars through legwork. And it just doesn’t work. What I mean is mass demonstrations, complete mobilization, general strikes, etc.
I really don’t mean to be Debbie Downer. But here is a quote from one of the “founding fathers” of US pseudodemocracy:
Now, tell me that isn’t EXACTLY the system we are currently living under, one in which the majority of the population is, by design, cut out of social decision making.
Constant haranguing? Do you have me confused with someone else?
And the point you cite was one of several. The other addressed practical considerations. In that one I was discussing a hope of mine (God forbid). I crave an alternative, and I’m not alone. The wonder is that you don’t.
Except that the Constitution provides a way for us to make the existing government more democratic without controlling it from the inside first. We’re allowed to call for a Constitutional Convention to propose Amendments without the intervention or necessary assistance of the national government.
It can be done through nearly half of the states using popular initiatives, and requires the State legislatures in the others. Or is the thinking that we have a better shot at reforming the national political scene than the local one?
Yo! Petro! Lunch was up … I’ll catch up with you in a later thread!
So, you’re suggesting not changing a thing because rich liberals offend you? You believe corporate tyranny is swell if a wealthy person wants to help break the chains that bind us? Are you watching Fox now?
I imagine the poor can accomplish much, at times. Caesar Chavez did. Ghandi did. Unfortunately, the poor in Europe during WWII couldn’t do a damn thing to stop the military machines devouring the countryside. They were poor. They were incapable of anything more than resistance – they could not marshal resources necessary to confront the state and stop its excesses. In fact, the Germans had ways of ensuring the poor never had contact with potential leaders. Concentration camps had a way of muzzling opposition, much to the delight of the elites of the day.
There’s a title given to powerless people without money: peasants. The world already has too damn many peasants. We need some wealthy friends willing to risk a comfortable lifestyle to stand up and organize those who can’t do it themselves.
Well, okay. That’s also a strategy. Working towards that is worthwhile. I’d still argue you can simultaneously do the groundwork of putting a truly leftist movement on its feet beforehand, because a new voting system needs to be taken full advantage of to show people the benefits it brings. One of which will be more parties. But if you achieve it at state level, you have to push it to national level eventually. You’d be forced to anyway by the growing fissure between state legislatures and federal ones.
Huh? Quite candidly I’m not suggesting that. I am suggesting, and have repeatedly suggested, that attempting to purchase our government is to accept defeat from the outset.
Not only because I don’t think a government corrupted more to my liking is a significant improvement on the scale of human social progress, but more specifically because I have serious doubts that it can be done at all.
Yes, we do. Except for the problem where they get into power to act as our proxies, and they turn into the very regime that was ousted. I hear there’s a term the natives use for these kinds of people. Democrats? Eh, something like that.
Without fundamentally reconfiguring facets of governance to be more democratic, to rely significantly less on heroes and fathers, we will always, always just be playing musical chairs with superficially different plutocrats. Perhaps that’s the best humanity can do?
Since I think that challenging Lincoln WAS the way we hold representatives accountable once they’re elected, obviously we have fundamentally different ideas about the answer to your second question. But I’ve written about that probably 10-15 times in the past few weeks. I didn’t bother repeating myself, but if you need to refresh your memory on that subject, Google is your friend.
People who donated agreed. You don’t. That’s fine. If you think they’re stupid for doing so, that’s a patronizing but acceptable position to hold. If you’ve got a better way for them to spend that money to achieve accountability, feel free to launch your own campaign and convince them. That’s the beauty of the internet: in a free market of ideas, you have the ability to persuade everyone that you’ve got the best answer.
“I’ve always depended on the kindness of strangers”?
sounds like a plan.
Well, there are a lot of 3rd partiers running around the joint …
You have *no* idea if or what alternative I seek. That I “don’t” is a figment of your imagination. And a manipulative assumption.
I grow very weary of commenters misrepresenting and misinterpreting what Jane is about. I have seen her answer all these *charges* and still the commenters sing the same song. Are you listening? Others sure aren’t.
It gets so bad I start to wonder about how much of this is about “how dare that Hamsher woman build something and have the temerity to choose the direction she thinks is best!”
I apologize for offending you, but Jane has put an awful lot into understanding and uncovering what is going on with this political system … including actually testing what does and does not work and what *could* create a place for some kind of change. But day after day after day that grassroots effort is dissed by the refrain: “give us a 3rd party.”
If you want a 3rd party, gather up the 3rd partiers and go start one!
Please!
The word you are looking for is “workers”. The fact that it escaped you would indicate that you have no idea what is like to be one, the overwhelming majority of the population. This is the sort of person we can expect to “rescue” us? No thanks, to paraphrase Marx, I would rather have one worker join the movement than 1,000 turncoat petty bourgeois.
Point to an example here in the U.S. during the last 10 years where this:
actually worked. We’ll be waiting.
I can point to rallies of hundreds of thousands and millions where it didn’t work. The anti-Iraq War rallies, the immigration reform rallies, anti-Prop 8 are just a few. It’s going to take more effective organizing than this.
You think people living on “thin margins” have the time and resources to organize or attend rallies? Really? I remember having to take an unpaid day off work to do that when Cheney showed up in town. It’s cheaper for me to send in $5 or $10 via PayPal than give up an entire day’s work and it buys me the knowledge that I contributed to the effort even if I couldn’t be there.
And compared to some retirees on fixed incomes who lost thousands and thousands in retirement savings and property values over the last few years, it’s cheaper to send in that same $5-10 to folks who’ll make shit happen in an effort to salvage the rest of the savings; gods know that pretending the problem will go away won’t do the trick.
Trumka needs to shackle himself to the White House fence, and then call for unrelenting rolling protests. Civil disobedience and demonstrations of our loss of confidence in the good faith of our government, spearheaded by labor and augmented by the left in hopes that the disaffected population will join in, is exactly what’s missing.
For me, it’s no so much about forming a third party as making it possible for third party runs to have impact and influence.
Jon Walker has written a lot about IRV voting. That could be important, because right now third party runs are instantly deligitimized as “spoilers” and their own potential success is used to defeat them.
Third parties have historically arisen around specific issues of interest to voters, only to recede once those issues have been addressed. They can be local or regional as well as national. The important thing is that they be able to credibly form and exist, rather than becoming simply another party that is subject to all the same systemic flaws as the current ones. But I admit my thinking is pretty nacent on the subject, and YMMMV.
Glad you acknowledged that. You’ve been heard about the third party many, many times. Realize that some people around here actually are activists AND political strategists, and if we don’t jump on your every demand, it’s because the numbers simply may not work at this time.
Perhaps it’s time to do some deeper thinking on your part about how to actually make a third party work before demanding this of others. Lay out a strategy with objectives that are SMART: Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Timely. When you can do that, perhaps people will be more inclined to drop off the real work they are already doing to organize accountability and a return to real representative democracy.
[edit: What Jane said at (96) -- and read Jon Walker's series about the Anti-Saloon League. There's a couple more features coming soon. Their efforts worked at stopping sales of alcohol; can we translate some of what they did into a contemporary effort to effect real and deep change?]
Ten years, huh? Bush and Obama, that is a pretty narrow window. But I’ll give you a wide window: point to ANYTHING positive in the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES that was NOT accompanied by people taking to the streets. I’ll be waiting a lot longer. Social security didn’t happen because Roosevelt thought it was a good idea or because workers sent money to lobbying groups, it happened because people took to the street and demanded it happen. Same with civil rights, it didn’t happen because people spent money, it happened because Johnson and the other elites were afraid of much more fundamental changes from people taking to the streets.
I’m just trying to get an understanding of your overall strategy, and the thought process behind it. This site I think implicitly, if not sometimes explicitly, promotes itself as a kind of outlet for a “movement,” except what’s confusing about that is how hostile your overarching strategy appears (though perhaps I misunderstand) toward movement politics.
Just the other day you spoke of Daniel Choi, and the impact of civil-disobedience, and I’m left to wonder why there’s no FDL fundraising or organizing for things like that?
Things seem to genuinely and consistently center around playing D.C.-money politics. Poking the insiders with other insiders.
That’s perfectly fine, we’ll agree to disagree on whether or not D.C. can be reformed from within (I stand in the camp that it cannot), and whether or not the People can successfully, and sustainably, engage their government like an eBay auction (I stand in the camp that they probably can’t). It just seems like your holding the contrary positions belies the general tenor of the content on your site here that isn’t related to horse-races.
Are you asserting that there was no arguably better means to spend $4.2 Million of other people’s money to further progressivism in the United States of America than running a primary campaign against Blanche Lincoln? That doing that was “the best” idea. Do you have an argument for that position? Surely there’s a mountain of thinking and deliberation that led you to that conclusion?
I think we’re talking passed each other on accountability. How would you have held Bill Halter accountable for those $4.2 Million? Primary challenge him? And what of the next turncoat after that?
It didn’t work because only the hippies and the gay were spearheading the action. But when labor, the left, the conservatives, and libertarians unite against the excesses of a corrupt government, the equation would ,imo, change drastically.
Can we not do both, you know – do what BP failed to do?
Well, have you got $75,000,000.00 in your hip pocket to buy the Republican primary in California? How about $150,000,000.00 to run for governor in the general? Have your friends got the $500,000,000.00+ it costs to run for President?
Working within this system is expensive. If you’d prefer anarchy, go for it. I can’t wait to see the evening news with the water cannons, microwave weapons and compliance techniques. Hell, if you get enough people to join you, in a few years, you may get 10% of the change you desire (see: The 60′s I lived through, somehow). In the meantime, there are Supreme Court justices retiring. Who decides the law? They do. Who appoints them? The finest Congress corporate money can buy. How did the 5-4 Roberts court come into existence?
Money, money, money, money.
Money!
Look back at the other factors which also existed when people could successfully take to the streets and know that they would be heard.
Like a media whose ownership wasn’t ridiculously concentrated across a couple handfuls of corporations. Look at the Vietnam War and Nixon, and how outlets like the Washington Post and The New York Times could and WOULD hold them accountable. What do you see happening today, in spite of the rallies?
Until we get corporate money out of politics and until the media is diluted and changed, the rallies may as well not exist, having been replaced by the latest breathless coverage of the missing white girl du jour.
That’s extremely well put and I hope you get a satisfactory answer.
I think you’ve seen that in progress over the course of the last year. FDL has been demonized for its willingness to work with “strange bedfellows” like libertarians.
Bravo!
I don’t mean necessarily with respect to funding sources, but that even the much (and appropriately so) maligned Barack Obama had massive numbers of small contributors, and it uh… well didn’t get us very far.
Should the American people feel assured that the next election with a candidate promising HOPE™ and CHANGE™ will be different? Pouring the time and money into them with assurances that this time, finally, the candidate won’t turn out like all the others?
How are you going to do that without a Constitutional Amendment?
And if it’s going to take a Constitutional Amendment, then why aren’t we organizing for a convention rather than more Democratic Party flacks?
The Senate doesn’t need 60 votes to pass legislation. They need 60 votes for “cloture” which means debate ends and vote taking begins. In order to “pass” a bill, a simple majority is needed (50 or 51 votes) with the Vice President determining a tie.
So…if I were on the Senate floor, I would repeatedly DRILL into the public’s mind that certain Senators won’t even ALLOW a vote on issues and make them defend such a stance. However, the “60 vote” excuse was and is an excuse to remove any progressive action from bills.
If I lived in Arkansas and originally voted for Bill Halter because Blanche Lincoln IS a corporatist, I certainly would not vote for Blanche Lincoln now. So, I won’t be surprised if she is soundly defeated in November.
So to combat each and every billionaire running for congress, we need to find a counter billionaire?
best I recall, Beckett wrote a play about that.
and that was not greeted all that kindly in the FDL ‘community’.
He also made a conscious decision to move away from individual donors in favor of corporate contributions. They weren’t raising enough, or so the story goes. I suspect it was all Madison Avenue. It was the plan all along to spur the masses, then turn to the nation’s real owners to seal the deal. The money boys. The multinationals.
He’s an actor on the world stage.
I think at this point, any ‘new movement’ will be formed elsewhere. A few comments here have sadly laid bare a very thin strategy, that is essentially all about the same old, same old. It’s not surprising. In the end, what else will most people do? But a number of people come here hoping for something really different, and yet, I fear, it is slightly rephrased, somewhat potty-mouthed Arianna in the end. This blog is also playing the game.
Adios amigos. Una lastima, pero por siempre…
Wow. Could you have written a more vile, condescending note if you set out to do so?
“You’ve been heard about the third party many, many times.”
I have? This is the first time I’ve discussed it at FDL.
“Realize that some people around here actually are activists AND political strategists…”
Wow. Aren’t you cool. I’m an activist and a novelist — how cool am I? Funny that you addressed this one point of mine and ignored all my others.
“…and if we don’t jump on your every demand, it’s because the numbers simply may not work at this time.”
my “demand”? I’m just having a conversation. Your defensiveness is odd and telling.
“Perhaps it’s time to do some deeper thinking on your part about how to actually make a third party work before demanding this of others.”
Again with the odd claim that I’m making demands. You sound like a White House insider speaking to a progressive activist. And I suggest you do some deeper thinking about how to make the Democratic Party work. That would impress me so much more than self-righteousness, condescension, and claims that I just don’t get it.
I’m surprised that mere mention of a third party would trigger such ridiculousness at FDL. I thought I left that shit behind when I stopped hanging out at Daily Kos.
I don’t doubt the narrative much, but there’s also something wrong in that all those small donors have no real recourse, and that’s more my concern. They still don’t have a seat at the table for all their time and effort, and now they’re older and poorer, and there’s not even the faintest guarantee that the next candidate will be a different story.
No. We need $$$. Anarchy won’t accomplish anything except work for Haliburton. Last I checked, the middle class was on the verge of extinction.
The Supreme Court set the ground rules. Find a way around them or find a way to use them to your advantage. Without cash, the latter is difficult, wouldn’t you agree?
I’m not suggesting a billionaire for a billionaire, but the American revolution would never have succeeded if not for the deep pockets and ample support of the French. Where are our Frenchmen?
My donation in the primaries certainly didn’t go for what I believed it would. No argument there.
Why all the crazy talk about a third party?
I must have miss the event that Obama said the following to Democrats.
I Barrack Obama believe in making union pay more taxes on their health care plans.
I Barrack Obama will create a health care plan that will force everyone to buy Health Insurance with no public option
I Barrack Obama will kill Drug Importation, that will help save americans money.
I Barrack Obama love Blanche Lincoln, Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson, they are my type of Democrats and I am going to govern like them.
I miss this speech by Barrack Obama
Barrack Obama lied to all of us to win the Democratic nomination, so why do we have to go start another party, Barrack Obama and all the Corporate Dems need to go start a party.
Nathan wait until 2011, the lying so call Progressive Barrack Obama will return again to lie his way to the Democratic nomination. Go to tell him to start third party.
There seem to be three notions floating around:
FDL: Support more better democrats.
Fringe#1: Help organizing transpartisan demonstrations.
Fringe#2: Build movements calling for a Constitutional Convention.
is a three pronged approach too much for FDL to act upon?
Came late but couldn’t resist. Chris Matthews is a nitwit. This is a guy who says the first thing that comes into his head and then proceeds to treat it as the Conventional Wisdom. Listening to him can be very disconcerting. He can actually make sense for a few minutes, but then whoosh he’s back out there in the twilight zone. That’s how he can make a corporatist stooge like Blanche Lincoln into some folk hero. The man is completely incapable of rational analysis or thoughtful reflection. He is the quintessential media clown. He is paid not to present us the news but to distract us from it.
The shorter version. Is there a Hamsher Manifesto someplace that describes the thought process that went into your concluding that trying to buy back the country is both desirable and feasible?
I ask specifically because everything I read on FDL, save for the electoral horse-race stuff, seems to indicate that your assessment of the problems and your concluded solutions have a very wide gap between them. At least that’s the outside appearance. I’d very, very much like to understand the thinking that bridges that gap, as it may be very persuasive and clarifying. I’d like to hold better ideas than I currently have, and if you can explain yours then there’s an extremely high likelihood they’ll supplant the ones I currently have.
Where the fuck are these $$$ supposed to come from?
So, make it official Jane. Is it your opinion that we should continue backing Democrats and “hope” we put “better” people in those positions?
If we’re sound-biting prerogatives mine would be described thusly:
#1. Draft initiatives and proposals on key issues, and organize to get them on the ballots of all the states that have popular initiative or proposal mechanisms.
#2. Start the process of organizing around moving for a national constitutional convention, plausibly starting by using the process in #1 as a gauge for interest and political landscape.
Sound-biting helps focus the mind. Otherwise all we get is minds on treadmills.
Ah, now I see why my innocuous comment sparked such a reaction, because third-parities come here and challenge Jane to break away. Well, I was doing no such thing. I’m not even a hardcore third partier, but merely someone who sometimes vote for third-party candidates and who believes that such a discussion about a third party is only productive if only because it might make us realize that the way we’re doing things is in fact the best way — challenging our own assumptions. And while it’s good, I suppose, that you want to stand up for Jane, she of all people doesn’t need you to. Note that she calmly responded to my comment.
Nathan Aschbacher?
You act like, the game of politics has morals. Like everyone plays by the rules.
You are forgetting the most important arm of the political parties, the Corporat MSM.(the republican party has a news station FOX)
How are you going to fight the Corporate MSM? The Corporate MSM has the power to control information. Information controls what people do, and will not do. It is said he who controls the flow of information controls the world.
Nathan, how are you going to keep Trojan Horses out of your Holy third Party? Obama lied his way around the nation acting like a progressive.
The Corporate Elite brought the 4th arm of politics a long time a go, the MEDIA.
Chris Matthews and his type would attack your third party and he will call on his friends at Fox to do likewise.
Has anyone ever seen Tweety’s backside? I expect there a slot to put in an 8 track tape and a wind up key.
I don’t advocate for a 3rd-party. It doesn’t make sense to me anymore. It’s just a tweak to the existing malfunctioning system. To me it feels roughly the same as neoliberalism’s view of markets. That everything’s generally sound and functional, save for a tweak here and there. A 3rd-party seems like a big deal here, because we’re not used to them. But the reality is that it’s not really a departure at all from the overarching system of anti-democratic governance.
However, you do point out something that would effect what I’m suggesting; which is utilizing existing (and expanding) the institutions of popular government that we already have access to.
The MSM can screw up populism just as much as it can screw up anything else. There would absolutely need to be a sustained auxiliary effort to focus on successful messaging that specifically doesn’t rely on the MSM, and not only pro-cause messaging, but anti-propaganda messaging as well. Door-to-door, innovative new uses of the internet, cunning publicity stunts to get the MSM to promote a cause without realizing it (I suspect you could exploit their narcissism and hubris to that effect), etc.
How about ranked voting?
Yes absolutely. Preferential voting is definitely something that makes sense to try and push through a state initiative.
Hell it makes sense to try and push it through in counties and municipalities as well, as it sets the stage for being able to get into the lowest-levels of government more easily, which can only help action down the road.
speakingupnow (109) — bingo, you hit on an actionable strategy, one that was used frequently against Dems during the Republican majority Congress. A strategic media blitz that a particular member won’t allow a vote can help. It may not be 100% effective as the situation with Jim Bunning’s obstruction on unemployment bills showed, but consistency is part of the trick.
fuckno (111) — yeah, I admit to my own trepidation, but I do keep in mind that liberals and libertarians share the same values on freedoms; we just don’t agree on government’s role all the time. We have to go to war with the coalitions we have, not the coalitions we want, to paraphrase an asshole from the former administration.
Nathan Aschbacher (124) — that’s actually a strategy which has worked very well for the right-wing; we didn’t catch on until 2006 that they were gaming ballot initiatives against us. Look at when the DOMA initiatives first launched across multiple states, along with TABOR initiatives. Ditto the charter school initiatives. These are used to motivate the right as well as the independent-libertarian-leaners.
What kinds of initiatives would do the same for the other end of the political spectrum?
As for constitutional convention: I don’t know that I can recommend this one. I’ve seen presentations on it, and we’re still rather fragmented politically that we wouldn’t be able to pull off a critical mass of folks to support the left.
Thank you for well thought out comments. I personally bring up the idea of third party candidates because the current two parties do not remotely reflect my beliefs and believe me, I’m not radical, unless believing in compassion, charity, and respect for others has become “radical”. From everything I have seen, the Democratic party (political members, not individuals) has been taken over. I can no longer in good conscience vote for either legacy party except for the rare candidate “for the people” which comes along. So, if someone continues to suggest voting for the same party will somehow change our current situation, I have a difficult time accepting that.
That is the missing link in the inside game. As I said, when it is a fight involving material wealth that small group who hold most of the material wealth will win. If it is a fight involving numbers of people the majority who own little more than their ability to work for the first group will win.
All this moaning about how Blanche Lincoln won her primary still glosses over the basic fact that she — “the corporatist” — still managed to win over more female and Black votes than the supposed “progressive” candidate Halter.
Is it really because female and Black voters in Arkansas are that behoven to Bill Clinton and Barack Obama that they are so willing to vote against their own alleged interests to keep a Conservadem like Lincoln in power??
Or…maybe it’s because Halter wasn’t actually that much of a “progressive” to begin with, and only played one to win the “netroots” over and seperate himself slightly from Lincoln?? What’s to say that he wouldn’t have moved himself rightward and adopted Lincoln’s positions in the general election??
Or…maybe the majority of Arkansas Dem voters (and remember, a pluarity of them did vote against Halter in the first primary) really are that conservative that they don’t buy what the “netroots” are selling, and that Halter’s efforts really did look like an outsider ambush on a principled “centrist” candidate.
The only way that ConservaDems like Lincoln (and Landrieu in Louisiana, and Lieberman in Conneticut, and Ben Nelson in Nebraska, amongst others) will be toppled without enabling right-wing Republicans is through a truly independent, populist and unabashedly independent Left opposition from below that isn’t merely an appendage of MoveOn or Firedoglake, and that goes beyond mere griping about the power of the DLC and Obama to directly attacking the Center AND the Right through truly egalitarian policies. Merely replacing them with slightly less conservative Democrats just won’t do the trick anymore.
Anthony
I was following that closely at the time and by my recollection it’s not really accurate to say that it was “not greeted all that kindly” by the ‘community.’ It seemed to me the closest you could get to that would be to say that there was lively discussion and the ‘community’ was, perhaps, equally divided among those who:
1) disliked the idea of working with, and therefore, legitimizing, the “enemy,”
2) saw the value of strategy and effectiveness regardless of ‘us’ and ‘them’ divisions, and
3) those who were willing to let it play out -or- were pursuaded that the approach had merit.
There were strong opinions. And strong support among many members of the community, including myself.
There was much debate about ‘purity’ tests. And Jane made excellent arguments about leveraging common cause. This common cause resulted in having a considerable effect on the Audit the Fed outcome.
In the end, we all learned a lot.
With no lasting *harm* done. :-)
You may have left already, but I have to say, you hit the issue exactly.
This may be OT but thought it important to provide this link. There is a growing opposition to the anti-labor, pro corporatists in the WH and the halls of Congress. The line has to be drawn in the sand. They have take for granted the working and middle class for far to long and the day of atonement has arrived. This is just one site. Others exist.
http://www.squidoo.com/progressivesagainstobama
- there is third-party activity at the local level; it need not be national.
- unpredictable things happen. The Berlin Wall fell, so two could the two party system. Let’s say Lou Dobbs ran as an independent and split the GOP. There could be an opening for a progressive, or some other scenario that won’t seem so crazy in retrospect.
excellent points. I sense an unprecedented disillusion with Versailles leadersheep. Our problems are not even being addressed, let alone solved.
And working at the local level makes the most sense, those are elections where small numbers of determined supporters are best positioned to make a difference.
I’m not so sure that IRV is the answer to creating more viable third parties or to electing more real progressive candidates.
However, if it is, then shouldn’t we be focused on initiative petition campaigns (in states where initiatives are permitted) to get IRV adopted? Seems to me we focus first on the smallest states that permit initiatives because in those instances a modest amount of funding generates the biggest bang. Success in a couple of those states then acts as a springboard for similar campaigns in larger states. And while we are fighting the fight in those larger states, the third party and/or more progressive Dems we elect in the smaller states begin to become a source of power and influence in Congress. (Can you imagine the beautiful chaos caused by just one true Progressive senator who was willing to play as rough and as dirty as Baucus, Lieberman, Ben Nelson, etc., do?)
Excellent analysis and strategy.
One would think.
I have to go back and check my notes, but it seems like IRV was pursued within the California Dem Party back in 2004-2005; if we could help a state that size move it along to other parties and to the legislature, it could be a trigger for other states.
This was a key state in the right’s ballot initiative efforts in 2006 and 2008; it’s the fifth largest economy in the world, can have a lot of clout just as it probably will should Prop 8 go down in court.
The big protest marches, with mass-produced signs, especially the ANSWER coalition marches, are mocked by serious activists. They exist solely to prop up the leaders of those groups, and these demos are not designed to win anything. They are used to increase membership for the organizations that hold them. They are as top-down and bogus as teaparties, OFA, Moveon and the Democratic party.
It’s a false dichotomy to pretend our choice is between protest politics on one hand and Democratic party politics on the other. Both will fail to bring about change, because neither is meant to. Here`s the Democratic party in a nutshell:
Running against entrenched democratic candidates is going to be expensive and it may not get you the results you want. It will take more time but it will be easier for progressives to run against republicans than it will running against incumbent democrats. If progressives are serious about change we have to get over our fear of republicans being in office and let a whole lot of democrats lose. If the dems and unions in Arkansas decide to help Lincoln in November bcz they are scared of a republican senator then Rahm and Obama are correct it was a waste of their members money. The dems need to be a minority party again and then we can run real progressives in the next election. We did eight years under rightwing republican Bush, and we are doing 4 years under rightwing Obama, there is no difference btwn them. Why not sit out the next two elections, let the dems lose, and then run real progressives against incumbent republicans. Trust me after four years of Obama and four under Romney, this country will be starving for real change and at least by then we can hopefully provide it.
The country was “starved” for change in 2008, which is a major reason why President Obama is now in office. One thing I learned, do not elect corporate DLC type candidates to win primaries and pretend they represent “we the people”.
Excellent! When do you start working on it?
We’re still in the “writing about it” stage, working as we are on respirators for fishermen in the Gulf who will probably spend the rest of their lives sick if nobody takes up their cause. And not being loaded down with money and manpower, we just don’t have the resources to fulfill every wish of our readers. But if you want to volunteer, that’s great!
Just start posting about it over at the Seminal. Let people know what kind of campaign you’ll be running, where you need volunteers and what you want them to do. I’m sure you’ll come up with a great campaign that will sweep everyone up in a tide of enthusiasm, now that you have a focus for your energies.
I think this is wonderful. Maybe you can start in your own state, if they have a ballot initiative process? Always a good place to begin.
This is so exciting. I love it when readers go from complaining about what we should be doing to actually doing it themselves.
Sen. Menendez & Sen. Schumer you think Sen. Blanche getting support in primary from Wall Street on whom she going to legislate with financial reform bill is fair whereas Mr. Halter seeking support of Labor which suffered due to the financial crisis is not. And to top it all Democratic Party taking sides in a party primary in favor of strong child against the weak child is a fair thing. Reading all this to me it looks like Mr. Halter more as a Hero who fought a lone battle against the huge odds.
Chris Matthews should be in sports. He doesn’t give a shit about policy let alone politics. Closest analytical prowess he has is his attempts to keep score between Teams Red and Blue. (This is not a deep thinker.)
Several hours later, I see he hasn’t taken you up on your offer. ;-)
Why am I not surprised?
Much depends on the type of protest. See also Barbara O’Brien’s series on Protesting 101 at The Mahablog.
Jane,
Well, truth be told, I don’t watch his show. and finally, Chris Matthews is a troll who always switches sides to cozy up to power, (used to be a huge Bush-Cheney, (mission accomplished) fan and now has pledged that he will do anything it takes to make the Obama Presidency work) but to sum it up he is a completely useless corporate hack with no understanding of what policies the neation needs. Nuff said…….
I’m already working on a State Bank of Oregon initiative to give Oregon some tools to drag itself out of fiscal crisis.
Working with the former-AG, will be meeting with the sitting SoS, some retired execs from the banking and finance industry in both commercial and rural-commercial lending who want to see banking help Oregonians, and others with expertise in international exchange, and a couple of attorney’s with specific experience drafting language around banking regulations.
The crux of it is to provide an expanded version of the Bank of North Dakota, and provide some semblance of monetary policy and economic independence for Oregon, because the Federal government has shown repeatedly that it’s not very interested in helping the states. We’ve got all the downside of a confederacy and a federation, with none of the upside on either.
We’ll see how it goes.
Beyond that, I don’t really think IRV is all that helpful, and I’d rather put my efforts toward using direct-democratic institutions to build better government operations directly. Outside of doing the paper-pushing I don’t think there’s any sound reason to keep propping up representative-democracy. It will invariably devolve into selecting the superficial features of your plutocracy.
Jane disappeared from the thread for 6 and a half hours, and I didn’t see her reply until just this morning. Almost never does she even bother to come back and respond, if one can consider that a response. The answer to this is still completely absent:
Despite all the reporting that happens here constantly regarding to how fundamentally broken our national political institutions are, we’re still at it trying to reform them from within. She saw it with the wasted money on the progressive caucus, the wasted money on Kucinich, the wasted effort on Stupak, etc. etc. etc. She has these brief moments of clarity where she points out the effectiveness of civil-disobedience (Daniel Choi), and realizes that the politicians are just lackeys, so we should really be putting pressure on the corporate leadership, etc.
Yet, despite those realizations is FDL raising money for organizing sit-ins? Organizing general strikes? Organizing boycotts? Raising cash to bus volunteers into crisis situations like the Gulf? No, instead we’re asked to give money to run an ad in D.C., in D.C., because by some miracle the lobbyists and politicians will be deeply moved by becoming suddenly aware for the first time that the President’s message about off-shore drilling is a calamity. People are asked to lavish Democratic candidates, who have at best superficial differences from the incumbent they’re running against, to do what exactly? Prove a point to Jane Hamsher and Glenn Greenwald that the Democrats don’t give a shit about liberal or progressive values and organizations?
She literally said that it was worth the $10 Million to find out the the Democratic Party isn’t on board with the labor unions. $10 Million! Despite that we’ve got NAFTA, no action on EFCA, a battle over Union healthcare plans (wherein the Democrats were fully intending to screw them), a long pattern of neoliberal union-busting, etc. But we couldn’t have possibly definitively known that the Democratic Party was functionally anti-labor, and just exploiting them for their contributions, until $10 Million was hurled upon Bill Halter, a guy who’s significant ideological differences from Blanche Lincoln are barely measurable.
Since you’re clearly in complete agreement with the strategic path of FDL, perhaps you’d be willing to answer the questions that Jane repeatedly refuses to?
How are we going to buy back our government when we’re getting poorer, and our adversaries are getting richer? How are we going to buy back our government when most of our means of activism currently revolve around traditional means of messaging that materially enrich our adversaries in the MSM? How are we going to buy back our government when our opponents write all the rules of the game, and own not only the current officials, but the training centers where replacements are recruited from? Is engaging our government like an eBay auction even a sound and sustainable mode of operating?
My impressions of how broken the establishment methods for political activism are come specifically from the kinds of news that FDL publishes, and so I am left to constantly wonder… if they’re so obviously broken, why are we still using them? They seem like they’re designed to frustrate us, not help us.
She was there after you were. ;-) And you still haven’t really responded to her questions — you just moved the goalposts.
Part of the problem with the institutional left is that in the wake of the 1960s, it did precisely what you recommend: bow out of electoral politics, and the farther left one was (and/or the more influenced by Marxist theory), the more likely one was to do this, as the various varieties of Marxism have as one of their common beliefs the view that, as capitalism and democracy are seen as mere way stages on the road to communism, participating in democratic politics is holding back societal evolution. This was compounded by the fact that they bowed out at the same time that right-wing groups, especially the religious ones, were getting into electoral politics.
Another problem, as outlined by commentators like Robert Parry of The Consortium, is that the right wing, infuriated by Watergate, ramped up efforts to take over not just the news media, but colleges, think tanks, and other arbiters of objective reality. They were and are quite willing to invest lots of money into this goal, whereas liberals didn’t by and large wake up to what the Cons were doing until after FOX was founded.
Politics, expensive as it is, still gets more bang for the buck than does charity. You can pull a Bill Gates and donate a few billion to the cause of helping out a Third World nation, but what good does it do if the president of the US is quite capable of undoing your gains with a few hours’ worth of air strikes? As people besides myself have noted, Gates and Buffett could have plowed $5 of their $32 billion into starting up an honest-to-goodness major third party that wasn’t just a spoiler, and another $5 billion into buying a cable TV network (or repurposing MSNBC). The fact that they didn’t is rather suggestive.
Good! Getting a version of the Bank of North Dakota going in Oregon is one of the better things someone could be doing. I also like the idea of relaxing some restrictions on credit unions — but of course, the bankers don’t, which is one of the signs that it’s the right thing to do.
You’re joking right? 99% if the time Jane just outright ignores the questions, and when she bothers to responds it’s some variation on, “When you get your own FDL, then you talk to me.” I’ve asked the same questions a thousand times about the strategy, and she responds with how I’m not providing alternatives, even when I am specifically doing so, which still isn’t an answer to my questions. I’m also not constantly pandering for money and support, and the point at which I am you can be damn sure there will be a complete manifesto of the why and how I arrived at asking for that help, and specifically address the questions of the curious and the naysayers; rather than just calling them names.
We have lots of direct democratic institutions to use outside of electoral politics, and we’re utterly impotent inside electoral politics, specifically because the whole thing is rigged against us. You seriously think we’re going to out play the powers-that-be at their own game? We need to move the field to the realm of the populist (direct democratic institutions) where we at least have a chance. We are not a D.C. power-broker, and we’re not going to be. That’s not how things are configured.
I’m not advocating philanthropy. I’m advocating changing the system so that philanthropy is less necessary, and I’m arguing that it cannot be done through the established national political channels and engaging them like an eBay auction.
The thing that pushed me over the top was watching Robert Rubin explain how all of us were going to have to tighten our belts, and get paid several teacher’s yearly salaries to say it.
If I could have, I would have citizen’s arrested him.
When I started considering what could possibly done to divorce my state from the teet of federal help, that long ago ran dry, it made sense that a bank run by the state with a very specific mission for lending to local business, lend to the state itself, and lend to other local community banks would be the best long-term solution. Christ, you can almost bet a sure thing that with access to something like the Fed discount window and near-0% rates, Oregon would become the central nationwide hub for green energy research and commercialization post haste.
If the states cannot rely on the central banking of the federal government for assistance, then the states need their own de facto central banking functions. It’s really that simple.
beyond the pale
Belt tightening for Rubin means what?
one less weekend in the Azores?
Let him go without the bare necessities for a spell — b*stard