Thanks Jane.

And it’s also a huge tax drain. The Marijuana Policy Project estimates that “marijuana would save $7.7 billion per year in government expenditure on enforcement of prohibition. $5.3 billion of this savings would accrue to state and local governments, while $2.4 billion would accrue to the federal government.”

Counter that with the $1.4 billion that taxing marijuana would raise for the state of California. The state just laid off 23,000 teachers. If you assume a $60,000 annual salary for teachers, that’s an annual total of $1.38 billion, about the same.

We’re going to have to make tough choices about our future in the wake of tough economic times. Prison guards and prison profits, or basic public services that are being cut to the bone in the wake of state budget crises. Our audience overwhelmingly believes that the Marijuana legalization initiatives are very important, and I think FDL can play a role in helping people to understand what’s at stake, and push back against the false arguments being advanced to perpetuate a disfunctional status quo.

Bullseye, as per usual.

Marijuana legalization is really about self-determination and ownership of one’s body–the vessel of human existence.

Without control of one’s body, there is no freedom.

licentious, frivolous, post-smoking hippies, and outside the realm of consideration by serious people

I don’t see an issue /s

but on the other hand, if someone is aware of a study that has determined the amount of $ heading into international criminal organizations and the source of those $ (I suspect a majority is indirectly funded thru insurance payments after theft),
I would ask to be pointed towards it.

Thanks, Jane.

The “three strikes” law also places a huge burden on the penal system by incarcerating non-violent drug offenders for very long periods.

There a bigger reason to support it I feel.

Jane talk about it but doesn’t really expound it enough. We need to let the right stop definign the debate. The right defines ALL debates now a days.

they did ti for HCR, they’re doing it for immigration.

We live in a world that’s defined by them.

There are real constitutional reasons to allow it, and ther ewe’ll have an ally with Libertarians. There are also real financial reason, there we’ll have an ally in everyone being hurt by the ecconomy.

the most important thing tho is that we change how the discussion takes place. It’s got to be good idea vs bad idea, not damn pot smoking lazy hippies vs us good real americans.

If we can do it for something as simple and obvious as pot, we can do it for anything.

Thanks, Jane. Some may believe that this issue is not important enough to bother with but for the state of California, it’s very important. We need the money – it’s as simple as that. It’s not cost effective to keep putting people in jail for pot when it costs so much to keep them there – the last time I read something about cost, it was $25,000 per year per prisoner. I don’t want my tax dollars going for that. I’m also fed up with the prison guard union. They are far more powerful than they should be.
I’m too old to suddenly start smoking pot but I certainly would if I had a disease that would be helped by it. It’s not our job to keep people from having whatever they need to live their lives.

Most of the young people I know who are apolitical or who lean toward TeaBagger-ish thinking are just waiting for one major party or the other to support liberalization of marijuana laws. That’s the party that will win their allegiance, assuming the support goes beyond lip service. It’s the right thing to do AND the smart thing to do.

Thom Hartmann said just yesterday or day before that hemp was outlawed because it was giving real competition to the paper pulp industry and cotton industry. Said it had nothing to do with drugs or anything like that.

All of the prohibitionists’ arguments boil down to a single point: If my college-age child gets a little off track and starts using marijuana, the prohibitionists want to put them in PRISON. Prison is not good for my kids or for yours, and it’s much worse than the effects of marijuana, so we can pretty well disregard all of the prohibitionist nonsense about keeping it illegal “to protect the children.” I hope my kids steer clear of marijuana, but I REALLY hope that if they do use a little marijuana, they don’t end up in prison and don’t have to pay the prohibitionist “treatment” cronies in order to remain free and productive.

If you’re a California citizen (or if you want to pass this along to any California citizens), Californians can register to vote at w w w . sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_vr.htm by completing the online form and mailing it to the address on the form

Even Barbara Boxer came out against legalization. It means she can’t get campaign donations from the illegal drug industry if they take all their money away.
There have been several stories about the drug money saving some of our banks after wall street raped the world financial markets with pseudo investments.
And what about our national forests and park lands being used by mexican drug cartels to grow it with poisonous levels of fertilizer and destroying the ground and ecosystems.
It’s about time we stop criminalizing medicine that actually works, isn’t it?

If you assume a $60,000 annual salary for teachers, that’s an annual total of $1.38 billion, about the same.

That’s a big assumption….

Otherwise, I agree with the post.

Parents, let’s watch out for the “October Surprise” and let’s stop putting our own kids in jail!
As the party of individual liberty and responsibility, I hope we as Republicans will put an end to this wasteful, police-state approach to marijuana. It’s time to let ordinary Americans grow a little marijuana in their own back yards.
Hopefully Californians will be prepared for the “October Surprise” that the prohibitionists will pull out of the hat as November approaches. They will no doubt try some late-breaking scare tactics and continue to ignore the harm caused by putting our young people in prison, the loss of tax revenue, the waste of tax money, the huge cost of enforcement, and all of the other evils of prohibition.
Parents, let’s watch out for the “October Surprise” and let’s stop putting our own kids in jail!
Citzens of California can register to vote at w w w . sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_vr.htm by completing the online form and mailing it to the address on the form.

Was William F Buckley a Libertarian? He advocated decriminalizing drugs (all drugs, IIRC)!

http://www.illuminati-news.com/marijuana-conspiracy.htm

Amazing: Ford’s first car was to run on hemp alcohol

* George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers GREW HEMP; Washington and Jefferson Diaries. Jefferson smuggled hemp seeds from China to France then to America.

* Benjamin Franklin owned one of the first paper mills in America and it processed hemp. Also, the War of 1812 was fought over hemp. Napoleon wanted to cut off Moscow’s export to England; Emperor Wears No Clothes, Jack Herer.

* For thousands of years, 90% of all ships’ sails and rope were made from hemp. The word ‘canvas’ is Dutch for cannabis; Webster’s New World Dictionary.

* 80% of all textiles, fabrics, clothes, linen, drapes, bed sheets, etc. were made from hemp until the 1820s with the introduction of the cotton gin.

* The first Bibles, maps, charts, Betsy Ross’s flag, the first drafts of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were made from hemp; U.S. Government Archives.

* The first crop grown in many states was hemp. 1850 was a peak year for Kentucky producing 40,000 tons. Hemp was the largest cash crop until the 20th Century; State Archives.

* Oldest known records of hemp farming go back 5000 years in China, although hemp industrialization probably goes back to ancient Egypt.

* Rembrants, Gainsboroughs, Van Goghs as well as most early canvas paintings were principally painted on hemp linen.

* In 1916, the U.S. Government predicted that by the 1940s all paper would come from hemp and that no more trees need to be cut down. Government studies report that 1 acre of hemp equals 4.1 acres of trees. Plans were in the works to implement such programs; Department of Agriculture

* Quality paints and varnishes were made from hemp seed oil until 1937. 58,000 tons of hemp seeds were used in America for paint products in 1935; Sherman Williams Paint Co. testimony before Congress against the 1937 Marijuana Tax Act.

* Henry Ford’s first Model-T was built to run on hemp gasoline and the CAR ITSELF WAS CONTRUCTED FROM HEMP! On his large estate, Ford was photographed among his hemp fields. The car, ‘grown from the soil,’ had hemp plastic panels whose impact strength was 10 times stronger than steel; Popular Mechanics, 1941.

* Hemp called ‘Billion Dollar Crop.’ It was the first time a cash crop had a business potential to exceed a billion dollars; Popular Mechanics, Feb., 1938.

* Mechanical Engineering Magazine (Feb. 1938) published an article entitled ‘The Most Profitable and Desirable Crop that Can be Grown.’ It stated that if hemp was cultivated using 20th Century technology, it would be the single largest agricultural crop in the U.S. and the rest of the world.

The following information comes directly from the United States Department of Agriculture’s 1942 14-minute film encouraging and instructing ‘patriotic American farmers’ to grow 350,000 acres of hemp each year for the war effort:

‘…(When) Grecian temples were new, hemp was already old in the service of mankind. For thousands of years, even then, this plant had been grown for cordage and cloth in China and elsewhere in the East. For centuries prior to about 1850, all the ships that sailed the western seas were rigged with hempen rope and sails. For the sailor, no less than the hangman, hemp was indispensable…

…Now with Philippine and East Indian sources of hemp in the hands of the Japanese…American hemp must meet the needs of our Army and Navy as well as of our industries…

…the Navy’s rapidly dwindling reserves. When that is gone, American hemp will go on duty again; hemp for mooring ships; hemp for tow lines; hemp for tackle and gear; hemp for countless naval uses both on ship and shore. Just as in the days when Old Ironsides sailed the seas victorious with her hempen shrouds and hempen sails. Hemp for victory!’

Certified proof from the Library of Congress; found by the research of Jack Herer, refuting claims of other government agencies that the 1942 USDA film ‘Hemp for Victory’ did not exist.

Hemp cultivation and production do not harm the environment. The USDA Bulletin #404 concluded that Hemphemp produces 4 times as much pulp with at least 4 to 7 times less pollution. From Popular Mechanics, Feb. 1938:

‘It has a short growing season…It can be grown in any state…The long roots penetrate and break the soil to leave it in perfect condition for the next year’s crop. The dense shock of leaves, 8 to 12 feet above the ground, chokes out weeds.
…hemp, this new crop can add immeasurably to American agriculture and industry.’

In the 1930s, innovations in farm machinery would have caused an industrial revolution when applied to hemp. This single resource could have created millions of new jobs generating thousands of quality products. Hemp, if not made illegal, would have brought America out of the Great Depression.

William Randolph Hearst (Citizen Kane) and the Hearst Paper Manufacturing Division of Kimberly Clark owned vast acreage of timberlands. The Hearst Company supplied most paper products. Patty Hearst’s grandfather, a destroyer of nature for his own personal profit, stood to lose billions because of hemp.

In 1937, Dupont patented the processes to make plastics from oil and coal. Dupont’s Annual Report urged stockholders to invest in its new petrochemical division. Synthetics such as plastics, cellophane, celluloid, methanol, nylon, rayon, Dacron, etc., could now be made from oil. Natural hemp industrialization would have ruined over 80% of Dupont’s business.

Of all the reasons to legalize marijuana, there is none more powerful than the need to stop feeding the prison industrial complex with bodies because of nonviolent drug charges. The United States has 5% of the world’s population and 25% of its prisoners. According to the FBI, someone is arrested every 18 seconds for a drug law violation. Four-fifths of those are for possession only, and nearly half were for possession of marijuana.

it touches on human justice and fiscal issues.

If we legalized Mary Jane, we’d suffer an increase of unemployment among gangs, sheriff/county jailers, police, DA and Staff, prison guards and associated industries. The horror.

That goes the same for Woman’s reproductive Rights!! Ya can’t separate the person from Their Body!!

Must be a bunch of DFH here at the Lake taking the poll….

It will be very interesting to see who, besides the CA prison guard’s union, will be financing the opposition. Corrections Corporation of America, no doubt, will have some skin in the game, but who else? FBI agents? DEA agents? County mounties who get to seize a lot of assets during pot busts? District Attornies
who get to up their conviction statistics based on pot busts and drug “conspiracies?” There are a lot of careers in law enforcement built on exploiting pot smokers – my guess is they’ll be crawling out of the woodwork and screaming at the top of their lungs very soon now.

Counter that with the $1.4 billion that taxing marijuana would raise for the state of California. The state just laid off 23,000 teachers. If you assume a $60,000 annual salary for teachers, that’s an annual total of $1.38 billion, about the same.

This is the main issue for me. And it’s really simple math. My daughter’s little elementary school right down the block just lost 6 teachers. There are signs in the windows that say “Ms. K got a pink slip because of our state’s budget shortfalls.” “Mr. B got a pink slip because of these budget cuts.” etc. In a state where education is already falling apart, we’re getting rid of the boots on the ground. It makes no sense.

I understand they dynamic here involving loss of pay and potentially loss of jobs for our correctional officers. I personally have friends in the Alameda County Sherriff’s Office, which provides deputies for Santa Rita County Jail. It would suck to see those guys miss out.

For me, it’s a moral decision. Would I rather pay for a prison guard to keep someone in line after they’ve fucked up royally? Or would I rather pay for a teacher to show someone how to not fuck up royally in the first place?

Of all the reasons to legalize marijuana, there is none more powerful than the need to stop feeding the prison industrial complex with bodies because of nonviolent drug charges… tens of thousands of people wind up as bodies working for pennies a day for private companies that collect billions from the government for incarcerating them.

This is THE issue, along with people being incarcerated because the gubmint disapproves of their taste in plants.

Exactly, and speaking of border states, there’s a giant drug cartel war going on in Mexico now, which is having a profoundly negative impact on all border areas now. The Mexican drug cartels are mostly bringing in marijuana, albeit also other drugs.

I’m not naive enough to believe that legalizing pot will stop the Mexican drug cartels, but for heaven’s sake, let’s at least stop the madness.

CA can use the money in terms of the taxes on pot. We can decriminalize it so that there’s much less incentive for the cartels and gangs to focus on this, and we can stop feeding the prisons with non-essential drug busts.

The reasons are more important that simply that it would be “nice” to have pot legalized. A lot of citizens really don’t appreciate the deleterious affects of anti-pot laws and how much money is wasted on keeping it illegal.

Reefer Madness … again

In 1937, Dupont patented the processes to make plastics from oil and coal. Dupont’s Annual Report urged stockholders to invest in its new petrochemical division. Synthetics such as plastics, cellophane, celluloid, methanol, nylon, rayon, Dacron, etc., could now be made from oil. Natural hemp industrialization would have ruined over 80% of Dupont’s business.

That is the REAL reason for outlawing Hemp! “Corporate Profits” first people second… Usual fare for the Right!!

Most major police agencies and unions are already on board. It’s going to be a fight. But my wife told me about a poll being discussed on morning radio the other day. Apparently the yeas were 70ish% to nays in the 20ish% range. I’m trying to find the poll now. But looks like this one may well pass.

I’m fully in favor of legalization but when you offer distorted claims you sink to the level of our opponents.

Legalizing pot will not put gangs or cartels out of business any more than repealing alcohol prohibition ended the crime syndicates that had engaged in bootlegging. It will pose a slight inconvenience for them but there are other ways to make a dishonest buck.

“Weakens your credibility with people you hope to win over to our way of thinking. You will be painted as pot smoking druggies and your important message will get lost in that argument. There are more important and winnable battles to be fought.”

Why do so many people accept compromising themselves and their beliefs in a weak attempt to gain respect from people who are ignorant. How are any changes going to happen if people are always worried about how they look to their opposition.

But looks like this one may well pass

have to find someone to write, sponsor and carry

My esteemed Senator, the former writer and star of SNL, was not willing as of 1 month ago (I have the email if you wish to see it)

So when will the team at FDL poll their on line audience and email list if FDL should take on the Israeli Palestinian issue. Whether your audience thinks that the ongoing conflict that many people who decide to blow themselves up to take out Americans over is important enough for the heavy hitters here at FDL to write about or take on.

Sure appears that this critical issue is far too controversial for the FDL team

“The state just laid off 23,000 teachers. If you assume a $60,000 annual salary for teachers, that’s an annual total of $1.38 billion, about the same.”

One wonders how much of the money saved would go to teachers. I’m guessing they will figure out a way to continue screwing teachers.

I look forward to the day when a tax on marijuana profits funds a renaissance in education in California.

I think it is a great idea, mostly for a reason alluded to in your post Jane, but not said right out:

We have seen the insurance/drug industries wave their hands and make healthcare poof! become a guaranteed new customer base.

We’ve seen (so far) the incompetent plutocrats – financial Masters – wave their hands and poof! reform of the biggest, easiest-to-see disaster in 100 years of economics become some kind of slap on the wrist w/ the trillions-big derivatives market untouched.

BUT! With all the states’ budgets collapsing from lack of revenue, the one ____-industrial complex that IS vulnerable is the prison one. It is such a huge GOP-brand style of privatization, with horrible conditions and cushy jobs that any Dem with a sense of politics should be happy to go after them (not to mention all that moral stuff).

I live in Pennsylvania, and here in Philly our new, progressive DA (Seth Williams) just got an ounce or less decriminalized in order to… unclog the court system! We have just had a big scandal uncovered about such clogging, but the fact remains that states have to crunch down, and with all the loss of wealth and foreclosures, people are more open to letting out kids caught with pot, etc. rather than not have their trash picked up or have less cops.

So to beat back people who say it is just not important enough of an issue, just tell em that it’s a huge opportunity to break a power base for all those particularly bastard-ly Republicans (and Blue Dogs) who get to say the damnedest things, safe in their rural enclaves by fueling the local economy with white prison guards over (over-charged) black inmates from the city. And, of course, a smack in the face to the drug industry – if I knew html I’d link to that Chris Rock bit about pot, drug companies, and ‘brown people wealth’.

I believe there are any number of reasons to deal with the drug legalization issue that are at least equally as important as the prison industry. How about the militarization of our law enforcement agencies? This is a direct offshoot of the “War on Drugs”. How about the devastation and destruction done to other countries? Mexico has had thousands of direct deaths due to fighting over who gets to control the drugs flowing into the US. How about the rise in Gang violence due to territorial fighting over drug sales? Not to mention the budgetary issues already pointed out.

I believe the estimate of tax collected in California is way low. Everyone west of the Mississippi will come here to spend tourist dollars. I bet the hit to tax collections will be more in the $5-7 billion range. And boy could we use that money.

Not only do we spend a lot of tax dollars locking up people for possession, by doing so we remove them from the workforce and lose the income tax they might have paid as a productive member of society. Additionally, it is damn near impossible for ex-cons to get a job, so we sacrifice a lot of potential future tax revenue they could have generated. Madness.

Crime will always exist, but if you can eliminate one of the main products that the gangs make money on, it will weaken them. They have become powerful because of the income from pot. Why would you not want to take that profit stream away.

Not relevant to the thread.

I’m not quite understanding your comment here. The proposition for the state of California has already been written and certified by the Board of Elections. It will be on the ballot here in November.

For me, it’s a moral decision. Would I rather pay for a prison guard to keep someone in line after they’ve fucked up royally? Or would I rather pay for a teacher to show someone how to not fuck up royally in the first place?

Are fucking kidding me ?? Keeping anyone in jail for POT is plain and simply wrong. If we stop incacerating people for POT we won’t need so many guards.. the money saved could go to Teachers who Don’t teach how for fuck up but how to grow up and learn how to use the basic tools of getting ahead in life!! Very easy call for me… besides many of these guards are not very nice peole and treat many in the jails illeageally. Many should swap thier bages for jump suits!!

When I was stationed in Spain during the mid-60s smuggling was an honoured profession, made possible by all the prohibited or highly taxed goods. I could make a good chunk o’ change moving American cigs across various borders.

It will only weaken them briefly. As I said, I’m fully in favor of legalization. There are a multitude of reasons to do so, it is not necessary to make specious exaggerated claims.

I’m looking for a link to the proposition now, but I recall reading a provision that a large percentage of the tax dollars and public funds raised and saved would be required to go to education.

Keeping anyone in jail for POT is plain and simply wrong

Maybe those convicted of violent crimes could be mandated to smoke a couple of bags a month?

Ok, just kidding. Just snark

I think you misunderstood me. I agree. I would much rather see those teachers brought back to my daughter’s school than see more prison guards in uniform. I was trying to say that as much as I’d hate to see my friends lose jobs, I would rather see more funding used for education as a preventative strike against crime. I think the money could be better used to educate than incarcerate.

OMG, you were Milo Minderbinder! “g”

LOL

When I was stationed in Spain

Air Base?

but.. but.. how many pot smokers do you know who ARE Violent?? I would rather have a run in with a pot head than a crack freak… just saying… that goes for driving also… Although I am not advocating smoking and driving…

Nah, he was too busy having lunch with Franco.

Yeah but Ahnuld was a pothead, so that might convince enough people to vote against legalization.*g*

but.. but.. how many pot smokers do you know who ARE Violent?

sorry, bad writing on my part. was snarking about individuals that are violent and that currently do not imbibe

I’m firmly in the legalize-everything-for-adults camp. I consider drug legalization for adults to be a fundamental progressive belief.

On the other hand, once marijuana gets into the hands of the merchant types, they’re sure to take the fun out of it somehow. You know how capitalists destroy everything they touch. We should be careful what we wish for.

Pheew thanks for clearing that up…

It would help our state’s first lady, Skeletor, with her appetite issues, though. Then she might stop looking like a skeleton in Ahnuld’s closet.

Rota, small airstrip but had a permanent rotating sub tender.

Strictly on the politics makes sense too. there’s nothing that drives registration and turnout among the youngest eligible voters like a marijuana initiative or referendum.

Here in Wisconsin, where we have no Statewide initiative process, we’re gearing up for non-binding legalization referenda for the November ballot in several of the smaller college towns.

Where you the one who got the GOOD Stuff from Morocco and into Germany?? I was in Germany from 67-69—

I’m bettin’ on Rota

To late typing

Yeah but Ahnuld was a pothead,

so why isn’t he getting out in front of this effort nationwide? Don’t see too many future political positions for him

oh wait, maybe dea

I’m with you, babe.
Don’t bogart.
Too much pot smoking may in fact lower some people’s inspiration to work outside of their booth, but, they don’t go out looking for violence.
Just a personal perspective here.
Hi ya hon.

you a squib?

Mornin demi!!! Waving southward towards demi!!!

I’d prefer that FDL get behind a policy of “Ending the Unjust and Wasteful Drug Wars and Institute Rational Drug Policies” rather than “Legalize Pot.”

Here’s another side-effect of America’s drug wars, and it has everything to do with unjust persecution and panic, and nothing to do with pot:

http://www.bms.state.mn.us/documents/awards/20100308-Boise.pdf

Even if drugs are legalized I’ll never get to partake because private companies can still insist I take drug tests before they’ll hire me, and can still refuse to hire me if THC shows up. Even if pot IS legal. But if we address the anti-drug propaganda, we can address the gross infringement of personal privacy that are mandatory drug tests as a condition of employment.

US Navy 61-75

Mobile Riverine Force 67-70

I think we’re in the beginning stages of just that.

((( demi )))

BTW, I didn’t make that up, SD really did have lunch with Franco.

I didn’t answer the email survey because there was no way to qualify the answer. I agree that it will diminish the standing of FDL even though I agree with legalization.

I actually think we should legalize all the drugs, thereby taking the profit motive out of it for the drug dealer killers that are running rampant.

Let them have the drugs, but if they end up in an emergency room with an overdose we won’t treat them. If you want to kill yourself, go right ahead.

I am Orr. Been ditchin and paddling for Sweden.

I was there 65-66. We had a weekly flight to Morocco. Head of the Security Dept was a pilot. He liked money too. *g*

I’d be fine with kicking the Mexico Mafia out of California’s deserts and forests.
Garage Pot, baby. Let’s go.
Seriously, I’m agreeing with you.

Namaste SD !

Yes, among all the many ratfucks, cleaning up DEA policy will be another one of Obama’s crowning achievements.

Oh, hello, great North Guru. :D

Legalizing marijuana would also create thousands of jobs and provide a new cash crop for farmers. Furthermore, hemp, which for some strange reason is highly restricted or outlawed in most states even though you can’t get high off of it, would be a great alternative to plastics, paper, and textiles. Hemp is also a renewable resource, unlike trees. There is absolutely no good reason to keep it illegal.

Great work Jane as usual…

I’m not crazy about legalizing pot for 1 fact alone that noone has addressed, it will filter its way down to teens regardless of what anyone says just like cigarettes & alcohol does…

I have no problem with adults doing it as they do it already…

What your argument points out is the fact that California has major problems with the prison system and privatization that has not worked but made a lot of people a lot of money…A typical systematic failure which just happens to be embedded within CA political economics…Calif’s problems are not going to be solved by Pot or the taxes thereof…

The Comptroller has often warned of the problems it faces and the cutbacks that need to be done…Yet all CA has ever done is raise taxes on everything & add more costly regulations to do business…This is a great time for them to address their problems…Open up the books…Its time for an Audit…Time to cut & run from programs that don’t work and the fraud etc to get back on sound financial ground or things will never change & get better…

After that is done then you can take a look at underlying issues and as far as I know CA already has misdemeanor laws for pot, so its hard to determine what the facts really are when it comes to drug offenders imprisoned…

My biggest argument for legalization is the war on drugs has never worked & cost billions of dollars…I saw the DEA’s numbers and for what it cost to run and what they have accomplished, I would shut them down…There is no justification for spending billions and all your doing is plugging a leak in a dam with chewing gum…

You liked that story, didn’t ya? Right place at the right time. Been very fortunate that way.

Ah, ah, ah! Obama was also a pothead, IIRC.

Namaste, Petro!!.

Brown Water?

have a good bud that was pbr’s 67-71

another that was udt, got transported by the first

More realistically, legalize drugs and (I hate to say it) bring the pharmaceutical companies on board as the providers. Clean, safe, reliable LSD, heroin, meth or coke, affordably available for persons participating in a licensed treatment program.

The Pharma companies get to make money producing and selling government subsidized drugs. Treatment companies get to make money producing and selling government subsidized treatment. The real challenge is designing programs that actually clean up the addicts rather than turning the whole system into a boondoggle of perpetuation, but I suspect Europe might have some lessons to teach us there.

The other challenge is that organized crime would possibly resist with violence… the Kennedy family can tell us how badly that can turn out.

“I would rather have a run-in with a pot head than a crack freak . . .”

OR A HEAVY DRINKER!!!

Say “hi” to Elin for me.

I have that movie on DVD, need to get it out and watch it. Still amazes me that there is such a good film adaptation of that novel.

In addition to the too-powerful prison guards, this initiative will be opposed by every single law enforcement agency in the state. Not because of their principled objections, but because passage would mean reduced budgets, and therefore power, for them.

Californians need to understand that law enforcement heads — sheriffs, chiefs of police, all the way up to Attorney General Jerry Brown — oppose marijuana legalization because it reduces their turf. Their power over the rest of us will be diminished, and lots of that budget savings will be at their ‘expense’ in the form of fewer dollars for them to spend.

It’s a bureaucratic response, not a betterment response.

Yep. River Rat.

Back to work.

Namaste

It’s a great anecdote. You were definitely part of an elite force on that day.

Namaste SD.

Not relevant at FDL. Too bad you folks can not take a challenge

i’m with you leen, just not on this thread

Ow, that smarts. No wait, I was sitting on a tack. Never mind.

Leen, i would like to see it come up. I agree it’s not relevant to THIS thread, but i’d definitely like to see FDL readership polled ( with hopefully an action step following ).

You know what “putz” means?

I/P issues are Siun’s beat, and she writes about it every week.

BTW, I didn’t make that up, SD really did have lunch with Franco

I wish to call bullshit, what’s the procedure

My white , just to be clear,brother is under arrest for growing 25 cops claim, 18 he claims 4″/8″ plants. Couldn’t have weighted an ounce. Locked up for 4 days , 2 shackled to a hospital bed because they withheld his prescription nitro patches until he had an angina attack.He’s on medical disability living on a little over $500 a month. He smokes because of taking medicines all his life since childhood he has no teeth and is in constant pain.They claim he’s a felon, was in the school zone radius thingy and should go to jail for ten years and lose his house (follow the desperate states need money).The 25 number is some threshold number

FOR 18 OR 25 PLANTS GROWN FROM GODS SEEDS

I would strongly recommend against calling BS on Southern Dragon. He’s the real thing. He was on the ship the night the Gulf of Tonkin Incident occurred, also.

Hi everybody.

LOL

My 14 year old is reading the novel now.*g*

what state?

just snarking, sorry should have indicated that …

As I recall, the story was that he was on R&R camping with a CO. They didn’t realize they were on Franco’s estate, got rounded up by guards and taken to the palace. Franco was friendly, gave them lunch and a pass to camp on his land if they wanted.

SD’s credibility is rock solid, IMO.

You needed to do a poll to determine that members of a left wing blog are heavily in support of legalizing weed?… Wow! What a news flash.

“That’s one hell of a catch, that Catch-22.”
“It’s the best there is.”

great story, I’m jealous

It’s always good to know what the family is thinking though.

Drugs being illegal has done little to discourage use. Mostly, the illegality allows poiticians plentiful opportunities for posturing. Sadly, posturing is what matters most to them.

Good choice. Kind of a tough read, not exactly a straightforward narrative. Seems like when I read it in my late teens I started it 2 or 3 times before sticking with it through the end.

David Sirota post up, making an important point about framing this issue.

He points out that some activists are jumping on the tax revenue issue, and that is a mistake because pols will respond (disingenously or not) with the public-safety frame and capture the debate. (Sirota points out that our recent history shows that people will “Pay-Any-Price” when confronted with security issues.)

If we do this, we should hammer on, and own for ourselves, the safety issue. It is unsafe to have this time-bomb of a prohibition to continue ticking, colleges are safer with less drinking, etc.

I’ve often suspected that the whole reason for outlawing weed is to give law enforcement a license to fleece the flock to whatever level is desired, much like unrealistically low speed limits.

That and having a big ol’ club to whup the disenfranchised and keep them in their place.

Originally the law was designed as a tool in the systemic repression of African Americans, later expanded to include the non-affluent of all races.

I agree! Handing the police “arbitrary enforcement” gives them way too much power.

If we do this, we should hammer on, and own for ourselves, the safety issue. It is unsafe to have this time-bomb of a prohibition to continue ticking

I have made that argument with my Rep and Senators but as of now, to no avail. As of last month, they have declined the invitation to engage or to discuss.

This would also be a good time to start quoting people like Buckley and Paul on legalization. Try to force the opposition to outflank us on the left. That is not terrain they are at home on.

The survey asked whether the FDL community thought FDL should play an active role. I think MJ should be legal, but agree with the reasons of the naysayers to this survey listed in the body of the post.

Don’t argue with them. Pols will sway with the popular breeze. The rainmakers here are, as always, the media.

Yep. All those stoned jazz musicians are coming for your daughters…Don’t think they won’t say it again, either, substituting “rap” for “jazz”.

Has anybody looked into how the United Nation’s 1961 Convention on Narcotic Drugs might affect California’s proposed marijuana legalization scheme?

I read the Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010, and it appears to me as though the Act might violate the 1961 Convention. Maybe someone with 1961 Convention interpretation expertise could comment on this issue.

Antoine

Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is ready and waiting: New University of Washington Study: Tea Party Simmers with Racial Resentment

I thought all the bulleted dissenting views were valid, except for the last which included the following.

You will be painted as pot smoking druggies and your important message will get lost in that argument.

Opponents are going do that in any event.

If we would reform our marijuana laws we could finally move onto using this wonderful crop in all aspects of everyday life. Food, textiles, paper, building materials, oil…

…oh yeah it makes good medicine.

But we get none of the benefits because some people want to smoke it.

All I can say is: Hemp for Victory!!!

I have followed FDL on Youtube since a guest to the Rachel Maddow show named dropped the site to me about 9 months ago. Not until reading this piece from Jane Hamsher did I decide I must support this organization. This piece is quite possibly the most compelling drug law reform essay I have ever read. I am onboard and ready to do my part.

Short version. I was vacationing with a Chief Gunners Mate and his family. There was a campground outside of Madrid but we unknowingly set up camp on adjacent land. Three Land Rovers of Guardia Civil appeared shortly and told us that we were on Franco’s land and we’d have to come with them. Took us to a house and Franco came out. Had a nice lunch. House is now a museum according to a friend of a friend who’s married to a Spanish woman and lives in the area.

true dat rat… & for Dupon’t future profits… Another reason to bring back Hemp… IT IS a Green crop(no pun intended) grows everywhere and the plant can be completely used … every stick and stem!

Good to see you, Lou! IMO, we get none of the benefits because some people want to persecute people who smoke it.

I’m all for drug legalization, just I don’t see this as a pressing issue – unless this is for pressuring Congress rather than being a state issue. Back in 1975 California changed the law with possession of an ounce or less being a $100 fine (and more than an ounce being a $500 fine) – it’s not like the California prisons are being filled with people who were caught with a joint. Even if the ballot initiative does pass, possession of marijuana is still federally illegal so whether the ballot initiative passes or fails, marijuana is still illegal and you are still left to the whims of the federal government. Federal law trumps state laws, so go after the feds or else you’re just spinning your wheels when there are other pressing matters. Obama is putting citizens on assassination lists and locking people up indefinitely without trial, while this is something that whether it passes or fails marijuana still remains illegal regardless of the outcome.

a blessed life S.D. for sure

btw i was ecm/ew – buffs and ac’s

Has anybody looked into how the United Nation’s 1961 Convention on Narcotic Drugs might affect California’s proposed marijuana legalization scheme?

That prohibition was strong-armed on the world by the U.S. The rest of the world would love to have that boat-anchor removed from around their collective neck. Europe already “violates” it in some areas, and the only enforcement arm, such as it is, is the U.S. We could walk away from that anytime.

Hi RonD, Good to be seen.

I didn’t even mention all the opportunities that will open up for talented people who smoke and can’t pass a drug test because they burned a fatty over the weekend.

Once upon a time I heard one of the biggest opponents of legalization was cotton growers who didn’t want to compete with hemp for a share of the textile industry. Even if it was true then it might not be now, as I think domestic textile production is damn near extinct.

Not all my encounters have been as enjoyable. *g*

A reason for my “no” vote that Jane didn’t include was that, like equality issues for homosexuals, the move towards pot legalization, though frustratingly slow, is widespread and I believe irreversable. As the older generations of reefer-madders are replaced by more enlightened and accepting younger ones, it’s just a matter of time before these progressive reforms are done (or am I just dreaming?). FDL’s high profile support/fundraising would seem to be unnecessary, subject to ridicule/marginalization (DFH-punching) (and perhaps cause some blowback by weakening its influence on other issues), and I’m afraid would spread its efforts too thin on other issues where it has more uniquely important influence. But maybe it’s just me being unable to keep up with with all the issue advocacy that FDL does, and sort of dreading yet another one to keep up with (the “democracy is hard” thing).

Like the people who built Silicone Valley who were hanging with Ken Kesey back in the day.

$1.4 billion in tax revenue isn’t an accurate assessment. $250-$500M is closer to the mark. Mark Kleiman worked the numbers – see this comment from the previous re-legalization thread. Mark was pretty down on Jon Gettman’s consumption estimates, but he did end up making revisions.

BTW, seminal contributor Joh Padgett is working on re-legalization in my former home state of Indiana. I’m hoping to assist him via a moribund tax exempt organization best known for placing billboards advocating re-legalization.

I’m a volunteer coordinator for the Washington State legalization effort, and wanted to comment just to familiarize folks with the Washington initiative.

First, our proposed law is complete legalization in terms of state law. That is, it would be legal to grow, sell, use, etc. for any adult in any amount. If our initiative gets on the ballot and passes, a local farmer could grow marijuana or hemp and bring it to his or her local farmer’s market and not have to worry about any violations of any state law. Of course, under-age possession and use would still be prohibited as would driving while under the influence.

Second, in gathering signatures our volunteers are also registering voters. We have an average registration rate of about 10-15% and in some counties (particularly red ones) upwards of 50%. I have talked to numerous people who say, “I’ve never voted in my life, but I’ll register to vote for this.” And since Washington is a vote by mail state, they’ll get a ballot in the mail whether they plan on filling it out or not–no need to drive folks to the polls!

I absolutely believe that this issue is a winning one for the left. It will motivate our base in a year in which we need motivating. If anyone is interested in helping out, check out http://www.sensiblewashington.org.

With the ascendancy of corporate control of our government aided and abetted by Juda$ Obama, I can’t imagine this issue moving forward much. Big Pharma makes big money selling overpriced medications with long lists of side effects to people who have little choice but to buy them. Whether it’s for recreational use, or for medical use, I suspect the corporate interests are not in any way shape or form in favor of revenue streams that don’t funnel back to them. Even if state initiatives pass, I expect the Republicans, who always say they are for “states’ rights” to reverse course and argue against those very same rights here. Also I expect Obama may give tepid support in speeches if states measures pass, while he and his goon Rahm Emanuel work to kill it in private to please their corporate owners, just as they did for the Public Option in the health care “reform” legislation.

domestic textile production is damn near extinct

after this recession is totally over, the economy and corresponding wages should be adjusted so that those who are inclined to, could setup operation again. Economic viability once our wages are on par with other areas of the globe

See Tominator at 14 great list of reasons why… Except he forgot it was and is used to suppress minorities…

Not all my encounters have been as enjoyable.

10-10

All in all, it’s a shithole of a country, what? Private prisons industries is the frozen limit, imho.

O/T: Just watched First Harpy Palin on Fucks News telling the Southern Racists Conference that her favorite bumper sticker slogan is “Don’t Retreat . . . Reload,” (HUGE roar from crowd), then “How unfair media says we are calling for violence.” RELOAD WHAT, SARAH? Black continues to be white. Don’t trust your lying ears. Sheesh!

sounds like a screenplay

Tominator said:

“In 1937, Dupont patented the processes to make plastics from oil and coal. Dupont’s Annual Report urged stockholders to invest in its new petrochemical division. Synthetics such as plastics, cellophane, celluloid, methanol, nylon, rayon, Dacron, etc., could now be made from oil. Natural hemp industrialization would have ruined over 80% of Dupont’s business.”

Wrong. The DuPont family fortune came from explosives, not fibers, and the 1930s was a great time to be selling explosives. Synthetic fibers were a minor sideline. In addition, hemp was a minor crop at the time and even the farmers who grew it couldn’t make any money at it. The 1934-35 hemp crop sat in the warehouses for years because there weren’t any buyers.

Jack Herer told a good story but it isn’t entirely accurate. Also, it doesn’t explain why marijuana was already illegal in 30 states by the time Harry Anslinger took over the Federal Bureau of Narcotics.

Anyone who wants a longer explanation of this topic see http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/hemp_conspiracy.htm Anyone who wants more information on the history of the laws see http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/history.htm Actually, the real story of why marijuana is illegal is more interesting than the conspiracy theory.

A state where you can kill 25 people working for you, through negligence and not be labeled a felon.

I have joined MassCann here and am going to actively advocate and get out the vote for legal cannabis for all the reasons mentioned above.
So, Jane, if there is anything i can do to forward your activism on this (already donated $50), please let me know.

Mark Kleiman’s numbers don’t hold up. All one needs to do to prove it is to do a short survey of the sales of the existing medical marijuana stores in Los Angeles. I did my own analysis based on very simple principles. You count the number of dispensaries. You make some ballpark estimates of how much they would have to pay for rent, utilities, employees, etc., just to keep their doors open. Multiple the number of dispensaries by the bottom line estimate of the minimum amount of profit they would need to make to keep the doors open. Then, use a ballpark number to figure what their sales must be to achieve that much in profit.

Anyone who does this in Los Angeles will find that the bottom line number — the minimum required to keep the stores open and their employees earning minimum wage — is more than what Kleiman estimates.

The guy is spending too much time in his office and not enough in the real world.

Not true. The cotton growers have nothing to fear from hemp. Two different products with two different sets of applications. As for hemp competing with cotton — forget it. Hemp, for all its wonderful properties, takes a lot of labor and effort to harvest and bring to market that just isn’t required for cotton.

This is why I appreciate this site sooooo much. Where else will a site operator ask readers for direct input into whether or not to put resources into an issue? Whether you stand in favor of complete legalization, de-criminalization, or maintaining the status quo (for whatever reasons), it’s inspiring to see that all opinions are given respectful consideration. That separate FDL from the “other guys”.

It’s ok with me if someone smokes marijuana, and I agree that prisons waste money and offenders lives. But what about public safety? A person can drive home relatively safely after having one drink (of alcohol), but not after having a joint. Our society is highly dependent on the automobile, and it’s not realistic to think people aren’t going to drive after consuming marijuana.

If you want to help re-legalize cannabis these national organizations could use your donations:
Marijuana Policy Project
NORML
Drug Policy Alliance
ACLU

I’ve listed them in order of effectiveness x focus on cannibis.

Got to remember plus benefits.

Article on the legacy of Dupont “Better Living Through Chemistry” from TIME

Seems We are paying a very large price for making POT illegal and promoting Big Chemical Companies… It is in the water and in us because of Dupont!!

Wrong. DuPont’s fortune came from explosives, not textiles. The 1930s were a great time to be selling explosives. Nylon, rayon, etc., were just small change by comparison. Furthermore, hemp was a declining crop at the time so there was no reason for any industrialist to consider it a threat to their empire. Even the farmers who were growing it lost their shirts because there was no market for hemp. There are lots of other problems with this conspiracy theory — like the fact that it doesn’t explain why mj was already illegal in 30 states when Anslinger took over the Federal Bureau of Narcotics in 1930. See http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/hemp_conspiracy.htm

Wrong. see http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/hemp_conspiracy.htm

You’re just misinformed. Performance of almost any activity is much better with pot than with alcohol. No comparison.

I at one time had 4 teenagers and never did I see them unable to function when stoned. Horribly red eyes, funny, and very hungry but never out of control.

$1.4 billion means sales of 70,000,000 ounces if taxed at $50 an ounce. That’s 2 ounces for every resident of California. Realistically it’s less than 20% of the population that uses more than 2 ounces a year.

Kleiman’s numbers are off – and he responded to my criticism to the earlier post. He and I had about 10 emails back and forth – I provided source data used by Gettman and also UN and NAMSHA studies on US cannabis usage. Gettman’s estimates are about 2-3X others as far as amount used and size of using populace. Granted there are confounding reasons for survey data to low ball estimates, but Gettman still seems overly high.

When selling revenue estimates it is better politics to under promise and over deliver – we’ll raise $300M in taxes as a promise, then when actual experience comes in at $700M people are delighted by their vote.

I’ve contact MPP to jump into this thread, I expect we’ll see Bruce or Aaron very soon.

Alcohol wins all the prizes for road hazards. It accounts for about half of all road deaths. All the illegal drugs combined aren’t even close by comparison and marijuana isn’t even a blip on the radar.

Besides, this never had anything to do with why marijuana was outlawed. If that was a good reason to outlaw a drug then alcohol would be the first choice to outlaw. But we already proved conclusively that prohibition doesn’t solve those kinds of problems — it only makes them worse.

Just FYI, the worst drunk driving problem we ever had came during alcohol prohibition. see http://druglibrary.org/prohibitionresults.htm

Try my method. Count the number of dispensaries in Los Angeles. Do some quick research to figure out how much profit any given small store has to earn to just keep the doors open. You will quickly discover that Gettman is probably much closer than Kleiman. I had trouble believing Gettman at first myself. Then I went and did an actual count and ran the numbers. The minimum figures for LA County alone were bigger than most of the market estimates for the entire state.

If you’ve done this research please present it here.

The problem that the US Government has with marijuana in California is a simple lack of resources to enforce it. It doesn’t much matter what Federal law says, or what the treaties say, if millions of people are simply ignoring the law. The DEA has about 5,000 agents total. They can scream all they want about legalization but once it happens, there won’t be a damn thing they can really do about it.

That’s not to mention that California is already under a Federal court order to reduce the prison population by one-third, and California is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. In short, law enforcement has shot its wad on this one and they can’t stop it, whatever.

Hemp: The little plant that could
And
Everything hemp

Just Some of the other uses besides smoking it…

Jane, I’ll have some of what you are smoking…
.
.
.
Oh, thanks!

taxed at $50 an ounce.

You’re going to have some problems with that level of taxation.

We’ll have another generation or two of revenuers running after people

but then, i guess all those dea agents could cross train …

Well, here are the basics:

Cost of rent – figure ballpark of a buck per square foot per month. A minimu size shop would require $1,000 per month for rent.

Salaries for employees – figure 3 employees minimum, working at $10 per hour, 40 hours per week. (Most have more than this, and longer hours) That adds up another $4,800 per month.

Then, just to make it real simple and easy, figure that they only spend another $1,000 per month on lights, telephone, etc.

Then add in $1,000 per month for advertising. This figure is quite low if you start looking at what advertising costs.

So, at a minimum, the typical shop would need something like $8,000 per month just to keep the doors open — and it would be obvious at that rate that the owners were not getting rich.

Now figure that their profit margin is 40% (a generous estimate). That means, in order to net $8,000, they had to make about $20,000 in sales.

So a small store has to make about $240,000 in sales per year (minimum) just to keep the doors open. Note that, at this level, just about none of the stores would stay in business simply because the owners would look for something more profitable. Nobody wants to risk all their money on a business for a potential $10 per hour job.

Multiple that number (using round figures again, for the sake of internet convenience) by an estimated 1,000 dispensaries in Los Angeles and the immediate surrounding area. That brings you to estimated sales of $240 million per year — absolute bare-bones minimum. The number really couldn’t be any lower than that.

And, obviously, there is enough profit in the business that it has encouraged lots and lots of people to go into the business. Why do they go into the business? Because, as one dispensary owner told me, he puts $2,000 of unrecorded, untaxed cash in his pocket every day from his store. Obviously, there are lots of people out there making more than the absolute minimum required to keep the stores open.

And note that this is just the stores. It doesn’t count delivery services or the more “traditional” marijuana dealers. And that is just LA County.

There is the method. Do your own numbers and see what you get. You will quickly discover that lots of the estimates don’t match up with what would be minimally required just to sustain that many open shops of any type.

That’s the assumption used to get $1.4B – $50/ounce, 70M ounces annual sales. It’s the taxation level Mark Leno used in his legislation.

Cost of growing is pretty low – especially if grown using natural sunlight. Licensed personal growing would make a small amount of revenue for the growing permit. Excess product from personal grows would have to be taxed… grey market concerns come into play – if Joe Budgrower grow 30 ounces a year, use 4 ounces a year, the other 26 ounces need to be legally disposed of – does he sell to a wholesale aggregator or purchase tax stamps and sell retail? What kind of paperwork to he have keep, and how does he avoid self incrimination for federal violations?

Some of this has been dealt with by the California Board of Tax Equalization for medical cannabis supply and dispensing.

So gross revenue of $240M. Sales at average of $50 for an eighth, or $400 per ounce. That puts LA at 600K ounces a year. The rest of the state is going to sell 69.4M ounces?

it would be a start, I’d prefer to see a decreasing tax over time, otherwise there still remains a fairly large criminal enticement

I’d like to see a half ounce of high grade cannabis sell for under $100 including all taxes. I suspect that production cost of a half ounce is on the order of $10. $25 tax, $15 for distribution, $50 profit.

prices could be cut in half and still allow for that level of taxation very high profit margins if those assumptions are correct. And from talking with growers the cost of production is in the right ballpark.

that makes sense, as long as the tax portion is low enough not to provide justification to work around it

If there’s going to be major activity in California, can we spend some time on single-payer? I understand we only need two more supporters in each house to override a guber veto…

No, not gross revenues of $240 million. That number is the ABSOLUTE FLOOR for what the number is. COULDN’T BE ANY LOWER THAN THAT. That means the real number is much, much higher.

Now, use the same method again to figure out what the number PROBABLY is. That is, most stores have more than 1,000 square feet. They have more than three employees, earning more than $10 per hour, for more than 40 hours per week.

Use these more realistic numbers and that minimum figure will quickly double — and that would still be a MINIMUM.

The REAL MINIMUM NUMBER is probably at least twice that bottom line estimate — and that still wouldn’t leave the dispensary owners going home with any profit. Even at twice that bottom line estimate, there wouldn’t be any businesses open because it wouldn’t be worth the owner’s time. And, obviously, there are a lot of people getting rich off this business right now, so we know that the owners are making a decent profit on top over and above that minimum. Note, when I say “decent profit” that I am referring to people who have told me that they pull $2,000 to $4,000 per day from their stores — before they started figuring out the store profits.

Then, if you really want to go into a real-world analysis of what they must sell just to stay open, the number would be many times that.

And note that this is only the dispensaries. Most people I have talked to in the dispensaries estimate that the black market is still probably equal to what is sold in the stores. And that doesn’t count delivery services, either.

So, using more reasonable figures on the costs to keep a store open, you could easily double the $240 million. That brings you to half a billion right there — assuming nobody earns a profit. Then you double that to account for profit — that brings you to about a billion in sales in LA County each year alone. Then you estimate that the existing black market is of equal size, which brings you to two billion per year in LA alone. And that doesn’t count delivery services.

Everyone who I’ve ever talked to about this subject says yes, we should legalize marijuana. Why is it still illegal? We are fighting the capitalist interests.

We are fighting the capitalist interests

and DoD, and LE and the MIC and DEA and Labor and I’m sure I’ve left out several hundred special interest groups

OK, so 8 times $240M in gross revenue. 4.8M ounces sold in LA county. Again is the rest of the state going to sell 65.2M ounces?

The US policy to criminalize possession and use and growing marijuana back in the 1930s had its roots in white racism. It seems that back in the 1920s and the 1930s black jazz musicians were having fun some pot and getting high. Some of them were getting cute white girlfriends, too… This was too much for our racist puritanical culture to take, so marijuana was criminalized.

Portugal, which used to have very severe anti-drug laws, finally decriminalized all drugs several years ago, and authorities were surprised to see drug use drop in half. It seems that about half of illegal drug use occurred because drugs were illegal…

It is time for the puritanical USA to stop criminalizing drug use, and follow the European way of treating drug use as a medical problem…

California already enforce their alcohol laws and any cannabis laws would basically be the same thing.

The $$$$$ that would be made by legalizing and taxing is huge. The time is here.

But Pete Peterson only wants the government to save money but cutting social security.

I think legalization is pushing people too far too fast. There’s already a backlash against *medical* marijuana in California because people are flaunting it. This is something that needs to be kept very low key.

I think this is a poor move, tactically. I have nothing against legalizing pot, but you don’t fight corporate takeover of your government with ‘legalize it’. It’s a good road to non relevence, imo, I don’t buy the framing that I’m ‘buying into’ right wing talking points and perceptions. Reality is reality, and people do not take those advocating this seriously.

But whatever.

Every last fiber of this initiative is going to have to be used to keep the legalization narrative from being co-opted by caricature “potheads”, and focus on the issues of policy failure, and wasted resources, like a laser.

If it becomes a stoner-movment narrative, it’s going to sink like a rock.

I don’t think there’s any way to avoid that. Stoners will support it. It’s a recipe for spinning wheels.

I don’t doubt they’ll support it, they should. We just can’t let the narrative become about the benefits of smoking marijuana; not that there aren’t any, but because people who don’t smoke it, don’t care.

Congratulations Y’all. Apparently you are sane and reasonable.

Here! Here! The time to end this foolish prohibition is LONG overdue. It’s sad though to see that Keith,Rachael and Ed from MSNBC NEVER bring up the subject. They ought to.

Pete Peterson – a very destructive man, indeed.

Keith,Rachel and Ed from MSNBC are FRAUDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you want to demand representation, paying taxes is a good start.

Here a theory on why they don’t, the Pope owns a controlling interest in GE. BTW, that means the Pope is a war profiteer. His flunkies on MSNBC are NOT going to blow the whistle on him.

I have some good news, a sighting of sanity in the deep south,

MMJ Bill Clears Hurdle in State Legislature
http://cannabisnews.com/news/25/thread25570.shtml

I have been observing the effectiveness of the War On Drugs for quite a while.

Recently though, thoughts started to congeal, specifically one day when I heard news commentators referring to the size of International Criminal Organizations in terms of their host nations GDP. That’s frightening.

The War On Drugs has become a National Security Issue (or it’s utter failure has created a national security issue)

btw – I don’t use, haven’t for 30 years

I think you are a fraud and why should Keith or Rachel bring it up. On the list of issues it at bottom of the list as far as I am concerned. Futhermore if CA want to get more revenue why not raise taxes on those that benefited the most. By the way CA has a stupid GOV and they are about to elect another one. In any case this entire matter has to be sorted out as to the intent,what are the benefits or not. How much money will be collected and what will it be used for period.

Don’t even get me started on hemp, because we could solve a very great many of our problems through heavy investment in hemp manufacturing.

Okay, Jane, good work: you convinced me. Solid arguments ~ I do hope we can reduce the prison population and the associated costs. That’s worthwhile to me. Breaking down any part of the insanity that Reagan initiated would be great; I had just figured it couldn’t be done. Maybe we can start a course change coming at it from this direction.

To at last, after all these many years to be able to discuss this subject without being labeled as someone who’s opinion doesn’t matter.

I’m am 61 years old I first smoked cannabis while in the service in Thailand in 1969. I don’t need to hear all the fantasy stories all the propaganda and I’m hear to say it’s wrong.

Prohibition of anything is wrong but the wrongs that have been perpetrated by the Prohibition of Cannabis are sinful. The lives that have been altered and lost just to keep people from feeling good and for the sole purpose of reducing competition in the market place are inexcusable.

Now that creditable media outlets such as FireDogLake have taken this on we should be able to enlighten more people to the real victims in this war on pot. There is no reason to fear legalization.

Legalization is not a frivolous issue.

only compared to at least a dozen other things – including prison and sentencing reform.

the economy, unemployment, the environment, education, healthcare, the wars. these issues make pot legalization look worse than frivolous – they make us look frivolous.

when was the last time fdl actually supported a progressive economic issue? (and no, neoliberal ones don’t count).

are we the out of touch liberal elites that chris hedges writes about? looks like it.

But legalization does go to the heart of prison reform.

Legalization does away with criminal penalties, should lead to a lot of folks then being released from the PIC.

How was student loan reform to end unneeded payments to banks so the money instead go to pell grants to low income students not progressive economic issue?

But legalization does go to the heart of prison reform.

neither necessary nor sufficient.

(p.s. i’m all for legalizing a lot more than pot – i’m just making note of priorities)

more people leaving school under less onerous debt peonage is imo an unadulterated good. but that does change the fact that the whole concept of individuals paying for school, of starting adult life with school debt — instead of treating education as a public good, is 100% within the neoliberal economic orthodoxy.

maybe a teach in on neoliberalism is in order.

p.s. to jon: on the other hand if what you are suggesting is only a two week long side topic campaign, that shouldn’t have to interfere with also working on some of the higher priority economic issues.