In 2007, Glenn Greenwald wrote a column about how our political debate was being constrained by the demonization of figures like Howard Dean, Al Gore or Ron Paul who were singled out and labeled “weirdos” for expressing opinions outside of party orthodoxy, even though those opinions may have broad popular support. Noting that Ron Paul shared several core principles with progressives on the issues of civil liberties and his opposition to the Iraq war, Glenn asserted that his participation in the GOP presidential primary gave him an important platform for “expanding the scope of issues we consider and the ideas that are worth hearing.”
Glenn’s column triggered an ongoing debate, with many “liberals” demanding that anyone who embraced a pro-life stance (as Paul does) must thus be excluded from serious consideration on any issue whatsoever. Glenn noted that Paul’s pro-life position was no different from Harry Reid’s.
I find Glenn Greenwald’s defense of Ron Paul’s anti-abortion record deeply bizarre. “Look over here, he likes the Constitution” doesn’t exactly respond to concerns that, in a Ron Paul world, tens of millions of women will be forced to use their bodies to bear children against their will. I’m less than pleased that my civil liberties are being abrogated, but I’m not willing to sell reproductive rights down the river for it.
That’s an interesting position. Does the health care bill Ezra has been fervently pushing “sell reproductive rights down the river?” Some would argue that it doesn’t, but Ezra Klein is not one of them. When the Stupak amendment passed in the House bill, Ezra wrote:
The idea that people are going to go out and purchase separate “abortion plans” is both cruel and laughable. If this amendment passes, it will mean that virtually all women with insurance through the exchange who find themselves in the unwanted and unexpected position of needing to terminate a pregnancy will not have coverage for the procedure. Abortion coverage will not be outlawed in this country. It will simply be tiered, reserved for those rich enough to afford insurance themselves or lucky enough to receive from their employers.
The abortion language that was ultimately included in the health care bill came from the Senate, which does in fact force women to purchase separate “abortion plans” on the exchange, and allows states the ability to opt out of offering abortion plans on the exchange altogether. Ezra allows Michelle Goldberg to make the argument for him that the health care bill does really good things for women anyway, providing “feminist cover” to support it even though one would have to objectively say that it “sells reproductive rights down the river.”
And what about those people who still hew to Ezra’s 2007 position, believing that it’s not okay to “sell reproductive rights down the river”? When we pointed out that this is in fact what the bill does, Ezra dismissed it as “helping activists kill the bill” rather than “actually informing anyone about what is in the bill.” According to Ezra, “the restriction here is not on the right to choose, but on whether primary insurance covers abortion.” Therefore, since the goal of the bill is not restricting a woman’s right to choose, the fact that it does so anyway is just a coincidence and therefore not a valid reason to object to the bill’s passage.
Ezra then went on to write (with no small amount of irony) that poor David Frum had been purged from AEI for his failure to walk in lockstep with the GOP on health care, after Frum pointed out that the foundations of the bill really were conservative. He castigates the party for its unfettered tribalism in shutting down a truthteller like Frum, whom he applauds for merely pointing out the obvious conservative intellectual inconsistency. You could give yourself whiplash trying to count all the reversals wrapped up in that one post, starting with Ezra’s long-held insistence that the health care bill represents a huge progressive victory (though he has been trying to square the two, as if progressive “goals” hadn’t been used as bait to neutralize liberal opposition and achieve a drastic corporate agenda).
It’s probably unfair to single out Ezra for this rather glaring inconsistency, since he was just one of many who were quick to excoriate “purists” on the left who didn’t support the bill and then subsequently leaped to Frum’s defense. But if the lesson of the David Frum firing is that it’s really bad for a political movement to stigmatize dissent and deviation from the party line, what does it say about those steely-eyed “pragmatists” who castigated pro-choice dissent within their own party when abortion rights were deemed an acceptable sacrifice?
There is no consistent, coherent moral position being expressed here. Rather, a woman’s right to choose has value primarily when it can be demagogued to exclude those who don’t pass its litmus test of tribal loyalty. Abortion is a core element of the liberal canon that cannot be broached at any cost when it comes to shutting down potential trans-partisan alliances around civil liberties or ending the war that have nothing whatsoever to do with choice. But when it comes to a law that actually seriously impacts a woman’s right to choose, abortion rights can be sacrificed for some “greater good,” with some feminist cover quickly assembled to affirm that an appropriate standard has been met. And anyone who doesn’t arrive at that conclusion at the same time is operating in bad faith and should not be taken seriously.
The abortion issue is emblematic of the way in which appeals to tribal loyalty were used to stigmatize and delegitimize progressive opposition to a radically corporatist health care bill. George Bush couldn’t privatize Social Security because of liberal opposition, but liberal resistance to a health care bill authored by the insurance companies was effectively neutralized by a call to Democratic party loyalty. Anyone making a consistent values argument, who didn’t immediately fall in line and support the passage of a neoliberal health care bill, was “helping the Republicans” — as if Republican opposition to the bill wasn’t the very thing that gave progressives negotiating power in the first place.
In What’s the Matter with Kansas, Thomas Frank poignantly describes how white working class Americans are tricked by corporate elites into acting against their self-interest through naked appeals to irrational tribalism.
Glad that only happens to Republicans.




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I see some of your “shrill, dead ender freaks” are over on FB giving PP the what for in their oh so sincere efforts to give Madame Speaker props
I hope you’re proud of yourself missy ! :D
Ezra does abortion rights mean something different when Ron Paul uses it vs the President in his healthcare plan?
Once again, the question must be asked when has Ezra and his ilk (Village Progs) been correct about anything in the past 18 months.
On Gillibrand, Geithner, bi-partisanship, TARP, the excise tax, reconcilliation, Afghanistan, etc., etc., etc., — the “smart” Progs have been wrong every step of the way.
Now thanks to them, in large part, the public has been sold the comprehensive Dole/Romney/Aetna healthcare bill as a “Progressive” victory.
Thanks, Village Progs.
Since Ezra Klein gets on The Rachel Maddow Show as if he is an expert on the things that he pontificates about, no, it is not unfair to single Ezra Klein out.
After all, consider the hypothetical. Suppose that instead of swallowing the absurd assumptions underneath the mainstream economic math modeling on the individual mandate, then he would not have been swallowing the lie that an individual mandate is the only means to avoid the “insurance death spiral”.
Its not like he is genetically unable to reject bullshit assumption made in mainstream economic models … he did so quite a lot during the period of the final days of the housing bubble, the bursting of the housing bubble, and the lead-in to the Panic of 2008.
So suppose that whenever he discussed the individual mandate, he had said, “it would be as or more effective to direct 4% of an employer mandate into an individual health insurance exchange account, and of course then nobody could argue that citizens were being forced to engage in commerce”.
Win or lose, it would have put the alternative on the table. And while that is a reform that is independent of putting a Medicare Buy-In into the health insurance exchanges as a not-for-profit, publicly administered option, putting both into place would lay the foundation for a genuine health care reform.
Heh, that’s funny.
Say it with me: NE-O-LIB-ER-AL
Tribalism works because rules enforce loyalty at the expense of the tribe supposedly for the tribes greater good. People like Ezra,Obama and Bush before him use the lizard brain defend the pack response to shut off debate.
The more we talk the issues the more they scream Danger and your weakening our beloved Leader!
That and they dismiss us by saying it can’t be done its politically impossible.
Tribalism enables and rationalizes greed when the wrong people are in power.
Tribalism encourages helplessness without the group’s support. Either we fight this now or in ten years we will be Bush’s Republican Party of Mistakes.
Why the Leader is never wrong.
Jane !
I don’t know how you take all the flak and go on, but am sure glad that you’re continuing on …
I agree that appeals to tribalism are a major problem in our political discourse – and that ressentiment (a sense of resentment and hostility directed at that which one identifies as the cause of one’s frustration, an assignation of blame for one’s frustration) seems to be driving far more of the political agenda than any positive emotion.
But it doesn’t seem to me you’re being fair to Ezra Klein’s position. You write:
But this isn’t what he’s saying at all in the piece you link to. Klein concludes his piece saying:
Thus claiming Klein has demonstrated a “glaring inconsistency” in chortling at AEI’s firing of David Frum is a bit off.
I think your point has salience. But Ezra Klein doesn’t seem the ideal representative of what you’re talking about. Aside from on the health care issue – in which he was pretty militantly opposed to your position. (Though for what it’s worth – I was really disappointed with you as well.)
I used to say those very words about Bush.:)
From Klein’s distaste with Paul, I’ll make the following deduction: Klein supported the invasion of Iraq.
This has been stupefying … that the “smart progressives”/neo-liberals are getting support from the same people who fragged BushCo on a daily basis.
Ha ha “honk honk” is the new “bahhh”
Sup Dude ?
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I was wonderin’ when we would get ta hear the shrill tones of a Hamsher aria this mornin’ and, well, there you are!!! I am so glad that you are pushin the larger issue of womens’ reproductive rights and the larger, genderless constitutional right to privacy while not lettin go of the politics of healthcare. The use of issues like choice to keep people divided from each other and themselves is, ultimately, a non-partisan tool and the progressive anti-corporate campaign must move quickly on issues like choice and racism to reach the huddled mass of poor white folks who are scared to death of what’s happenin’ to them but don’t have a clue who is doin’ it. That’s why I warn you about playin directly to the right-wing populist Ron Paulites, the linear descendants of Huey Long populism. This group needs to be challenged directly on issues of race, choice and class because until they are confronted on these issues they will be a reliable force in the corporate mercenary army.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS FIGHT WON’T END UNTIL WE STOP FIGHTIN’!!
Awesome, Jane. You’ve made the point quite well and it’s *crystal*. Thanks for so patiently repeating yourself on these topics. Do you think the tribalist mentality is intrinsically hypocritical? Is it because of a “big fish in a little pond” principle? Why are these folks so stubbornly opposed to the welfare of anyone else outside the pond? Seems like they think there is a Big Nothing beyond the pond.
Klein and Markos both seem to epitomize the fairly recent conversion of the Ds to tribal politics or team sports. Since we understand very little about tribes in these days but nearly everyone believes that they know about team sports it seems almost reasonable that politics might turn into two sides jockeying for position. This might be the result of first Rs and now Ds having traded away their values for lobbyist influence. We saw plenty of so-called progressives receive marching orders that went against their previous promises. The party faithful, knowing that they can’t afford to take real positions on issues like the PO are now, like the Rs, reduced to playground taunts in the hope that it will weaken the other team. The superficial posting on financial reform Krugman (linked previously by Blue Texan) is yet another example. Being for Dodd’s proposal is about being for reform, everyone else is a closet conservative and attempting to make the home team fail.
Sure am glad the term is gaining some ground.
A lot of people heard you on Saturday. Mary’s show has a huge following.
I agree-I admire a smart, tough and unwavering person. Jane certainly falls in that category.
Namaste Petro!!!
Citizen SouthernDragon:
“NEOLIBERAL”…kinda has a catchy ring to it doesn’t it?
Yeah, like VIET CONG
They’re not “pro-life”. The correct term is “anti-abortion”.
I like “forced birther.”
Jane, you and we pups are now in the “right for the wrong reasons camp,” while Ezra, Kos, et sl are in the “wrong for the right reasons” camp. That way the wrong ones can’t lose, and they can sleep at night knowing that just because they are wrong, it doesn’t mean that they are wrong.
Sad but true.
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
SouthernDragon:
Careful about pissin’ off the VC, they fought like tigers against the forces of “neoliberalism” and managed ta kick it back to the States where we are still wakin’ up to it…comparin’ the “neoliberals” to the VC is a slander of the little folks.
Namaste SD !
*Bows Deeply*
I’d say we were more imperialists than neoliberal at the time. The neoliberal ideology didn’t come together until the 80s. Charlie fought the imperialists and won. We have to fight the neoliberals and win. If we don’t, democracy as we know it will cease to exist. VC was a catchy term, though.
It is amazing how many people that were all for the progressive win on the health insurance reform front came out within days to admit that this was exactly what the Rs wanted in years gone by. Ezra doesn’t seem to be alone in attempting to explain how this liberal win was so quickly converted into a corporate bonanza.
Whocouldaknowed?
Since when is Ron Paul some sort of anti-authoritarian?
Perhaps I’m mistaken, but I thought that Paul’s platform consisted more of returning anti-authoritarian “authority” to the states, while removing such power from the feds. (and, yes, I know that he is a fervent opponent of such as the Patriot Act).
lol.
“Auntie Cecile Went To The White House, And All I Got Was This Lousy Bumper Sticker”
So do I. The term suits them quite well since that’s all they care about.
From the latest, shameless begagram from DFA:
Jane,
Do you like being lumped in with this rogue’s gallery of spineless sellouts?
When people here use “neoliberal” is it the same meaning as the term when used in political arguments outside the narrow confines of US borders, where neoliberal refers to the resurgence of the old 19th century liberalism? What everyone else from the center leftward calls neoliberal outside the US is normally called “globalization” inside the US, on the pretense that “it just happens” rather than being a collection of deliberate policy choices.
It is not at all unexpected that the same corporatists that critiqued Bush daily are on board with Democratic corporatism … the reason that the Democrats were able to rebuild their corporatist wing after the oil companies defected to the Republicans is that there are conflicts of interest between different parts of the corporate sector. But when a challenge comes from outside the Corporate Party, the Democratic and Republican wings tend to close ranks against the outsiders.
Citizen SouthernDragon:
By 1948 when the corporations had solidified their hold on the political infrasctructure of the Democratic Party, the prototype of the “neoliberal”, the tribal Democrat and later in the 50′s and 60′s the corporate Democrat, was carryin the day inside the party. Hubert Humphrey is a perfect example.
Reproductive slavery coalition works for me.
By the way, for anyone who wants to know what neoliberalism really looks like when it puts boots on the ground (and the cameras are turned the other way) I highly recommend the movie Winter Soldier. Viet Nam vets speaking on their experiences as soldiers of empire in the nineteen seventies while the “police action” was still in full swing. Pirate Bay has a strong seed of it I think. (amazing how many people still seek out and share these obscure documentary records).
Yes.
Some of us here started using the term a while ago to more accurately describe the current political/economic agenda.
This might already be out there, but I think we need a new acronym…
IOKIYAC (It’s OK if You’re a Corporatist)
Kinda goes with Jane’s call for a new way of looking at politics.
Tribalism from the Left or Right is stupid its about the power of Tribalism being used to squash dissent and gain short term advantage at the expense of long term gain.
We beat the GOP because we were logical we will lose to the GOP if we let the Dems become the GOP in power.
Ouch, doesn’t get snark?
A few of us here lived it, including Norske.
But issues like race and choice are being used to push a corporatist agenda now Norske. “If you don’t do x you’re a racist/sexist/don’t care about little children.” As if you have to agree with all of their policy recommendations before you can be said to care about those things.
The neoliberals appropriated progressive values order to make calls to tribal loyalty and certainly as the neocons did patriotism to push the war (“why do liberals want the terrorists to win”). That’s the point of the post.
Speaking of VNVets, I haven’t seen Raven around for awhile.
I agree about the corporatist pol being the neolib prototype but they weren’t fullly formed yet.
Yes, I am becoming more aware of that all the time. You guys have actually quite a contingent here I think.
Raven comes, Raven goes.
America first.
Democratic Party second.
That simple.
Who should I listen to–Glennzilla and Jane or Ezra Klein? Hmmm….that’s an easy one.
Now, if only Rachel Maddow would wise up.
Less than half dozen that I know of.
Vocal though.
Human nature is tribal.
I don’t think Norske is arguing I think we have to take these issues back the school lunch post for example speaks a bunch about Race and Classism poorer people tend to eat school lunches.
Michelle put her Cred on the line for this Obama the street activist would be protesting this if he were still an activist.
We have plenty of targets like this.
20% unemployment for African Americans in Chicago heck I’m expecting riots this summer.
Yeah, we have a hard time keepin’ our mouths shut.
:-)
Mike Huckabee on his Fox show said that the EO that Obama signed will not stop abortions. Huck said that the EO was an underhanded sneaky trick. Then Huck explained how he used EO’s when he was gubner of The ARK.
Huck said that women will be able to get abortions paid for by the gubmint in the Community Health Centers (which Huck said fall out of the gubmint funding exception for abortions).
What is Huck lying about?
Perhaps we shamed him into taking a break from standing on the sidelines of the threads lobbing spit-wads instead of contributing to the discussion. I for one was getting really tired of it. I’m sure he has a lot to contribute when he wants to, but in recent weeks it was mostly unpleasant one-liners.
“We need your money so we can have a voice at the table!”
To say what?
“How weak would a public option have to be in order for you to let us have a token version of it to present to the American public as another political trophy, Mr AHIP lobbyist Sir? Can I get you another drink Sir? Here let me light your cigar…”
It was my impression, perhaps mistaken, that the reason Stupak wanted more than the original language in the bill was to make sure the Community Centers were included in the prohibition.
I miss Raven and we all have the right, within limits of course, to say whatever we please. He contributes a lot and I want him back.
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is now available for our perusal: In the Wake of Arrests in Three States, Right-Wingers Rush to Defend Terror Suspects, Criticize FBI
No shit.
Reminds me of the old comedic Maoist label, “running imperial lacky dog.”
They are much loved here.
Don’t anybody tell these people to put their shovels down. Dig, baby, dig.
Ms Molly, believe it was opening the exchanges that set ol Monsignor Stupak off
Raven has bad times like many of us here do we fight we argue we get cranky. Still he fights quite well for our side and we do miss him.
Bingo. Too bad humans will probably become extinct before they move beyond some of those outmoded evolutionary survival instincts.
Da trolls ain’t too fond of us. *g*
That would be really funny were it not true.
Namaste, rf. How ya doin’?
I think he just didn’t like all the criticism of O.
Rachel wise up? Not likely. Once your soul is sold, it ain’t never coming back. Now that she’s making big speeches for orgs like Clinton’s Foundation, you can bet that her sellout is complete, final, and irreversible. Can you say, “Corporate Whore”?
Namaste, SD. Doing okay, how ’bout you? Sorry I missed Caturday.
That’s good. I’m much more fond of the expression “puppet of the establishment,” though. They’ve come a long way at making puppets these days. They’re so flexible. Ezra’s virtually a contortionist.
GO JANE!
btw I too hate to see the flattering, Orwellian descriptive “pro-life” EVER used for the fetus fetishists ..
“radically corporate” is a keeper, however!
Sorry to disagree, but of late Raven wasn’t contributing much of anything.
I come here partly for the things I learn from the perspectives of all of the denizens of the Lake, partly because it feels like a virtual family, partly because it’s just fun. There’s a wealth of knowledge here that I don’t find anywhere else, and a minimum of combat among commenters. Of course anyone has a perfect right to express an opinion, but I do think Raven was getting tiresome. I also hope he comes back — and contributes to the discussion.
I wasn’t alone in that opinion. Others shared it also and were beginning to speak up.
OK, I stand corrected. Thanks!
Oh, I hope that’s not true. She had so much potential.
Still, she does seem to have been sucked into the bubble really quickly. Ezra Klein is like fingernails on a blackboard, but she loves him.
What is Huck lying about?
Make it simpler and shorter: what is Huck NOT lying about?
Once you’ve sold your soul, I think it gets easier and easier to go along to get along. Unfortunately, that now encompasses our entire Congress.
We should capitalize on all points where Ron Paulites and liberals agree. It has great potential. Both sides have been marginalized by the status quo. With so-called Liberals such as Maddow and both Kleins misrepresenting our worldview, we cannot effectively get our message to the masses (who already agree with us on choice, healthcare, the economy and foreign policy) on teevee and radio.
We can gain ground with Paulites on the the issues we agree and increase our numbers.
The public does not agree with Ron paul on abortion. Set that issue aside. Our liberal representation – our side – government and instituional – has sold us out. Move on and address it later. We can split with the Paulites when the time comes.
Frankly, I get pretty tired of “all Obama bashing, all the time” around here, too. I guess I would comment differently, perhaps more like Demi, who lights up the room when she’s here.
Puppet
Sorry, BigJess, I disagree completely about Rachel. Please give us some examples of the “sellout” that leads you to call her a corporate whore. I think that is unjustified.
No one is compelled to read every comment. If you find a commenter tiresome, I suggest you skip their comments.
IMO Raven has paid his dues, he should be able to say anything he wants. Most of the time my impression is that in his sardonic minimalist fashion he is pointing out that some of the regular posters and many of the commenters at FDL practice their own variety of tribalism.
If that is his intention, he’s correct.
and all this time, I thought papa was a running dog lackey of the bourgeoisie
Early in the process, Rachel appeared to be interested in the actual content of the healthcare bill. As time went on, she spent most of her show railing against Republicans and other obstructionists. Instead of keeping a critical eye on what a miserable piece of shit the thing had become, she just kept gloating over and over that it was a done deal, nothing the Repubs could do about it, yada yada yada. And then there’s her frequent guest Ezra.
IMHO, Obama has earned all the bashing he gets. He needs more bashing. I am not at all bothered by Obama bashing. Often, cogent points are made within the bashing.
Obama was the “Fight The Lobbyists in favor of the people” guy. Obama still maintains we “stood up to the big health insurance companies”. Yet, sick children will still be excluded from “health insurance”. Health Care Reform turned on a dime to become Health Insurance Reform.
BTW, Obama sucks.
LOL
I used to simply applaud it’s excellent satire, these days I find myself singin’ along – I blame you godless pinkos :D
Ditto!
That’s right. Rachel was/is effectively a big ol’ corporate shill on Health Care. She seems to be hitting the right notes on DADT and Gay Rights. Let’s hope she doesn’t fold on those issues. Now I have doubts.
ROFL I can go back to work with a smile now.
Namaste
godless pinkos LOL
Amen.
I agree that the Affordable Care Act is a PoS in many, many respects, and we’re already beginning to find that out with the childrens’ pre-existing condition loopholes.
But there are a lot of people whose opinions I respect who believe sincerely that the bill is at least a step in the right direction and who supported its passage in the face of Republican obstruction. I will reserve my “corporate whore” and “sellout” epithets for our elected leaders who struck deals with the lobbyists and the insurance, pharma, and for-profit hospitals to write the bill to their liking, in exchange for contributions. Exhibit A is Obama.
Who’d have ever thought the road to revolution started in the halls of Shambala?
Tribal loyalty…Fuck Yeah
Huey Long invented social securty so to say that the Paulites are their linear descendants is sill beyond belief!
Wherever he went I hope he stays there.
Well, if one takes serious the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, then tribalism is anti-thetical to these principles and undermines them. So, the US was not founded/is not organized upon Lizard Brain principles and enshrining them in our law is a huge discontinuity and a mistake. The film, A Few Good Men (1992) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Few_Good_Men_%28film%29), is about what can go wrong when tribalism trumphs all. Note that Lt. Daniel Kaffee was based on David Iglesias who was, at the time a United States Navy Reserve commander, and later US Attorney dismissed in 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissed_U.S._attorneys_summary#David_Iglesias).
There are no true progressive pols in the Democratic Party but the “progressive” movement is completely rife with party loyalists. Obama, Rahm, and other Dem leaders realized that before we did and dismissed the Left, knowing that when the time came most would fall into line.
Rachel demonstrated during the past few months that she is a party loyalist first and foremost.
OOPS. NSFW!!
LOL.
Gandhi.
Colour me gone.
I did some sparring with Raven from time to time, but I still like him. He is a colorful character.
Apparently in your estimation he failed the tribal purity test.
This is very true. Jane and Greenwald are progressives who stand on solid progressive principles. There are others on the web, but they are rare.
We have to fight the neoliberals and win.
Agreed. But Ho Chi Minh did not defeat the mighty American Empire by circulating petitions. He paid for his victory with a river of blood. The neoliberals (the Obama Administration) now control the American war machine. How do you propose to defeat them?
Here, just let me pull those arrows out of my back…
;)
Personally, I have no problem with a woman’s right to choose as long as the guy either:
A: Has some input into the decision whether to keep the child
-or-
B: Can walk away from the pregnancy and the unborn child and not be hounded for the next 18 years by state and federal government for monies on behalf of the child.
While it is true the child does rest with the mother for 9 mo., it is unfair to shackle the father without any say in the matter whatsoever. I understand the reasons why abortions happen, and I agree there can be justification for it, but what’s fair is fair.
If abortion is OK, then the guy can make a decision and walk away and have no association with the child.
Just seems very much like a double standard that will go forever unaddressed because of the shaming tactics that are used to counter it. “You made your decision when you had unprotected sex..” blah blah blah “You need need to man up to your responsibilities..” yadda yadda yadda
It is just if a woman can make the decision to walk away from a pregnancy, so should the guy.
Yep, and then the Party let Hilton build a hotel in Ho city so ex-Viet. vets could come and visit the old battle fields and bars of their youth.
RE: “keeper of some reprehensible flames” — Why didn’t he spell them out?
Hell, James Kirchick at TNR had the guts to not only level specific charges (bigotry, anti-Semitism, etc.) but provided some documentation from Ron Paul’s newsletters to back them up.
Greenwald’s position on corporate speech might surprise you, not to mention the great lengths he’ll goto to absurdly assert that discussions of corporate speech and personhood are practically separable.
I really don’t understand your point. The very quote you use to say that Jane is being unfair only bolsters her point. You re-post what Klein says in 2007: “If you believe that civil rights must come at the price of reproductive freedoms, or vice versa, I assure you that you will end up with neither.”
How is this not proof of naked hypocrisy and tribe-loyalty given what has just happened with the health care travesty bill?
“There are others on the web, but they are rare.”
Please post links. I love Jane and Glenn, but I needs more links. NOM NOM NOM
:)
Bolt the party Jane. Then you can say YES. I am not loyal to the party.
Malcolm X: “You can’t have capitalism without racism.” [or any of the other artificial divisions they foist on us, e.g., tribalism]
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=18263
Being neoliberal means never having to say you’re wrong.
Uncle Ho had it easy, relatively speaking.
Step one of the assault on the war machine will be the economy next year.
He did spell it out in the sentence above:
He included a link to a previous post of his in which he discussed these more specifically.
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=12&year=2007&base_name=dear_andrew_sullivan_and_glenn
Perhaps I haven’t been around here enough to have seen the good side. He has his supporters.
Good answer. Have a cigar.
He strikes me as a lawyer on that issue. No offense intended since I did my time in that profession myself, but lawyers are trained to see distinctions like that which are somewhat crazy to people outside the profession. Law school is three years of straining for distinctions and being beaten with the difference between holdings and dicta. I see a distinction as well between allowing speech and other aspects of personhood in the decision. I don’t trust that the Supremes won’t be happy to go further down the road of corporate personhood, but they didn’t go all the way down it in the Citizens United case. I also don’t think that corporations should have free speech rights, but I agree with Glenn that the practical difference won’t be that great. I think we just weren’t as focused on just how many different ways the corporations buy our elections before this. Look at how well they did with all Congresscritters who were elected before Citizens United. Did you notice any noncorporatists to speak of in the HCR debate? I think Kucinich was the only one and the overwhelming weight of the rest of them got to him in the end anyway so it didn’t matter he wasn’t doing it for cash or a cushy lobbying job.
Jane said:
Klein wasn’t saying that. He was saying that no progressive should support Ron Paul – for that among other reasons. The other reasons being his race-baiting, his dismissal of sexual harassment as a real issue, and his blaming of victims of AIDS.
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=12&year=2007&base_name=dear_andrew_sullivan_and_glenn
He welcomed Ron Paul into the discussion – but correctly judged that it is difficult to square being a progressive with supporting Paul.
Do you – or Jane Hamsher – think otherwise?
No, he failed the test of common courtesy and mutual respect. I can enjoy some lively and pointed back and forth with the best of ‘em. But when you immediately reach for the cheap shot and the sneering comment you lose my empathy and consideration. I know his type. Gets no quarter from me. Sorry.
I can remember thinking well of him and wondering what was up with him, both. Unfortunately, I can also remember wondering what was up with me when reading comments I had posted in the past, so I can’t afford to be too judgmental. The only comments I got really pissed off about long term were Jason’s during the Coakley/Brown wars. He got on my last nerve and then kept on going after that. Not much chance of him taking a break from FDL, though, so I’ve had to just get over it.
That’s bullshit, even in the section you pull out:
He’s demagoguing a position Glenn never took. Obviously Glenn never said anything like that, nor does he believe it. Ezra is leaping to the conclusion that Glenn’s post about Paul is an assertion that “civil rights must come at the price of reproductive freedoms.” It’s right up there with “liberals who oppose the war hate America,” as major distortions of an argument that were likewise made to attempt to delegitimize opponents of the war. It’s dishonest, it’s reprehensible, and it very much proves the point. You can’t throw in a few of Ezra’s famous qualifiers and hope to mitigate the fact that he’s distorting Glenn’s argument.
Again, with the “being a supporter of Paul.” Which Glenn most certainly isn’t.
It appears that it is physically impossible for you to successfully address the substance of what Glenn said, and you’ve got to slip into misrepresentations and personal smears (neoliberals have refined both to a high art) in order to be able to address it at all.
As Churchill said, I think we’ve established what all of them are, we’re just haggling over price.
Bed Bath and Beyond…LOL
Oh, I agree that the practical differences regarding peddling influence are probably minimal. However, I’ll as the same question ask I asked Greenwald,
This of course also ignores the patently absurd condition within our society that corporations can be both persons and property, depending on which definition is most advantageous to its owners. Lest every single corporate officer be subject to challenges under the 5th and 13th Amendments.
I can’t really speak for Jane. I have a hard time supporting Ron Paul because his positions are internally logically incoherent.
I’m way more left leaning than probably most of the people who comment here, but I’m pro-life (as in the sanctity-of), though I would never in a million years legislate against it, because there appears to be no causal link between the legality of it and its incidence.
I do know that Ron Paul claims to want to put an end to our military-adventurism and lemon-socialism, and to those ends I’d have no problem working together with him to make it happen. So long as the duration of our partnership extends only that far.
I don’t care at all what Rav’s positions were on things. It was the poison-dart style that I have no time for.
Jason’s comments make me roll my eyes. Rav’s cause me to narrow them.
Anyway this diary isn’t about all that. I’ll drop it.
Great read. Thanks. What I get from lumping Glenn and Ezra together on this is that civil liberties are not expendable but women are. So maybe I should rephrase that. Civil liberties for men are not expendable.
Has it occurred to you that the reason many women opt for abortion is that cowards like you won’t take responsibility for the lives you help to create? And why should any women subject herself to the “input” (read: control) of someone who is so flippant about life that he wants no part of the responsibility for raising a life he helped to create?
When you can answer those question honestly, then you will have some wiggle room for debate. Until then, you simply represent yet another irresponsible segment of human society that lectures others without any basis.
Jane, it’s why you matter so much.
there are several hangin in the weeds here at FDL
could be very positive to have a narrowly defined coalition
I thought Republican opposition was the cape in the bullfight: Toro! Toro!
Political 2 dimensioner thought bubble: “Aim for the cape…aim for the cape. OUCH!”
Great Post!
This why the POWER TO DEFINE is so important.
The elites are using the “power to define game” to define what issues are going to be conservative and which ones will be liberal.
Soon you may hear some in the MSM say the idea of cutting taxes on the wealthy is a liberal idea.
Progressives must re-capture the power to define, so that the debate does not become a muddy mess.
The democratic party currently has pro war factions? and anti war factions?
The democratic party currently has pro life factions, and pro choice factions?
the democratic party has pro business factions and labor factions.
Some of the factions listed above do not belong in the democratic party, if you asked the average american Dem or Rep, they would say that the Dems are not Pro War, Pro Life, etc. someone is making the Dem party a muddy mess.
Actually Glenn and Ezra both seem like smart polite boys, but neither of them gives any serious impression they give a f*** about women’s rights. They give lip service and a nod, but they don’t have a stake in the fight. And that appears to be par for the course in the progressive blogosphere. Kind of a fun playground for boys and the girls who want to play too.
Agree with both. We can’t do it alone and I think if we can get everyone clear on who and what the real enemy is then we can debate the other differences, respectfully and in a dignified manner, within the framework of a real, functioning republic. Let’s be bridge builders not ideologues.
say it with me,,, less defining (and misdefining) people and dismissing them, more honest argumentation.
A lot of people on the left want the same things but don’t agree on how to go about getting them.
Argue about the goals and the tactics instead of the names of the players.
It’s an interesting and thoughtful post and deserves to be considered as valuable without wasting much time on individuals.
Interesting. Raises the question, “When does a big tent coalition degenerate into a tribe bound only by myths, rites, and symbols?”
I’m comfortable with that but it’s tough to keep your eye on that target while continuing to duck stones, rocks and boulders (and if those boys in Michigan have their way, other things).
Framework for trust is missing maybe. How do we cross over those ideological boundaries, that are very real, and create partnerships?
Maybe you already stated it, agree clearly on who and what the real opponents are (don’t care for that other term, little too militant for me)
when the goals of the various factions are divergent?
Hmm, goals and tactics… I think a broad perceptual attack on corporate/globalist lackeys of both parties would be appropriate. Relentless imagery which shows how craven is their subservience to money and how little they really understand about the lives of the people for whom they presume to legislate. Equal opportunity destruction of D’s and R’s. Just off the top of my head sorta.. People have been doing this forever obviously but is their a way to focus it more tightly..sellout of the month award?
Well, fortunately for us Jane Hamsher has already reached out to similar segments of the body politic occupied by Ron Paulian sorts, and some movement forward has already begin; namely in pushing for Fed transparency.
If society’s technology reaches the point that the father can elect to carry the child if the mother does not wish to, then society could elect to give the father equal say in whether or not the child should be carried to birth. Until then, anyone other than the mother making the decision is reproductive slavery.
That is a distinct issue from a society’s rules on parental responsibilities, which kick in after birth when the child is a member of society. No amount of sophistry can convert it into an either-or.
Division of the Gauls was Caesars genius tactic. It’s so very easy to do. Someone has to be the first to reach out because the danger of not doing so is going down to frustrated defeat again. Agree with your semantic adjustment BTW :-0
Which is great I think, exactly right. What happened to that audit the fed push anyway? It’s a perfect issue but it seems to have lost a little profile lately.
are there other factions or groups where there is a possibility that a consensus could be reached?
If you regard it as more important to attack “sellouts”, rather than disputing with people openly advocating right wing positions, sure.
Not more important or even appropriate at all possibly. Just thinking off the top of my head about strategy etc.
Depends on the issue. I suspect that one could find a lot of anti-Drug War warriors among the Firearms Rights crowd if one could defuse the mutual skepticism between the groups by pointing out that they’re both essentially saying that demand-side material prohibitions are pointless abrogations of personal liberty, do nothing but militarize the state against the people, and that policy regarding both should be limited to the realm of harm reduction.
Of course that would require liberals to quit being afraid of guns in the process.
House version (HR1207) has 317 co-sponsors
Senate version (S604) has 32 co-sponsors
Momentum stalled during the health care debate, but I expect it to heat back up soon…maybe.
Thank you for the update!
I’m a weirdo, born and live in Minnesota but lived in NY and CA. I stopped years ago mentioning to people that I own guns, freaks them out (and I never mentioned hunting) But I understand those from large urban areas that are frightened by firearms and their fears.
Lately when I’ve written Senator Franken regarding the ‘Drug War’, I’ve mentioned the amount of money going into International Criminal Organizations and that I believe it is indirectly coming out of our pockets in the form of insurance policy payments. Additionally, the size of these Criminal Orgs can be measured in the form of GDP of their native countries. Not a very comforting thought.
And then of course, I ask just how well did Prohibition work out of us.
So, It sounds like we need spokespeople minimally at the state level, maybe needing to drill deeper? (network thru existing politico orgs and recruit those that are sympathetic maybe)
What’s the next step? (has it developed that far yet?)
appreciate your thoughts Nathan
This from the Phan Rang Phenom.
In my view, the Neo-cons animates the “confused” Conservatives. The Neo-libs animate the “regressive” Moderates. As to the “aggressive” Moderates, the ‘center-left’ animates this mindset. Thus, being politically engaged is imperative, otherwise these “kissing cousins” (Neo & Neo) will keep up all in the attic, as in out-of-sight and out-of-mind. And I don’t “need” any more of this on a national level, since the Sonoran Desert has more than enough of these “Cousins” and which have been imported from Chicago. (Okay, Chicago is a pun on the Chicago Cubs, since they have gotten the Republican-led Legislature to appropriate more tax credits to build a new stadium.)
Jaango
Tribal loyalty stops change in it’s tracks no matter what legislation is being talked about. It’s that simple. Blogs and media that are currently on the “Ain’t Obama and the Dems the greatest thing evah” daily routine, are in fact doing nothing but supporting the status quo. If you look at any of the blogs since the insurance reform corporate giveaway, they are all nothing more than rah rah cheerleader sites. Blogowners I respected have turned into shills. In the media, the Rachel Maddows have turned into party loyalist corporate whores not worth watching. What did they promise Rachel to get this, a sparkly new pony? Sad, sad, sad.
The next step is probably a lot of really uncomfortable co-mingling between groups that woefully misunderstand each other. Well, that’s probably not the next step, but it’s around the corner.
The next step is actually articulating what I stated in a way that’s succinct and impactful (I think I just made that word up), that appeals to both groups. Possibly even different messaging to each group, to the point that they discover the overlap on their own. Nothing gets things done like convincing someone else that they were the champion of the idea.
One of the big problems on the pro-firearms side is that many of their criticisms are 100% valid, but unwilling to be heard. Similarly for the anti-Drug-War side. So, some really no-non-sense examples from both sides highlighting the absurdity would be helpful. Presented using the Socratic-method, so the result appears to be self-discovery.
Many of the restrictive laws on the books for firearms are completely ridiculous, often penalizing purchase and/or possession based on little more than physical appearance. I used to have a really good example, I’ll have to dig up images. It’s an identical rifle, both semi-auto, both magazine-fed, one has black-plastic casing, and the other is wooden. Literally identical otherwise. The black-plastic one is restricted, because it’s an “assault rifle.” It’s completely incoherent. It’d be like telling people they can’t buy big rims for their cars, because people might be afraid they’re a drug-dealer.
Ni sweat and no offense meant. This post offers quite a bit to think about.
demand-side material prohibitions are pointless abrogations of personal liberty
That’s the nut of the matter, right there.
Yes, I don’t think anyone is suggesting broad support. Just pointing out a few individual(but important) points of overlap where some teamwork would be possible. Anti-war, anti-torture, police state excesses/abuses…
And Andrew Sullivan suggesting that Ron Paul was the best Republican candidate in the 2008 primaries was far from a ringing endorsement. With the exception of a 4 minute Ron Paul vs Giuliani debate regarding the Iraq & terrorism, the 2008 Republican primary debates were an 7 flavors of Bush snoozefest.
As for Ezra, I think he’s a road to nowhere. Progressives will get nowhere swinging in the corporate breeze like Ezra.
Can we advance social issues much further without first breaking the political power of the corporations?
It seems to me that they’ve decided to divide&rule based on a few key social issues. And they’ll do anything to make sure that these issues are eternally held hostage.
Hoo, hah – what a great article and subsequent discussion! It was all well worth reading, and I’ll start by working my way backward through some of the narrower issues and with luck eventually get to the larger ones before I get tired.
Yes, sometimes it’s more important to attack sell-outs than to beat up the farther right-wing idiocy. Now may be one of those times: progressives willing to buck the Democratic party line have been so completely marginalized that neutralizing the internal opposition may be necessary before we can regain enough support to defeat the opposition on the right (since right now the party seems more inclined to embrace or otherwise utilize the right to help advance right-of-center policy than stand up for what it used to stand for).
There’s a drastic military analogy if you feel you feel the need for one.
I really hate to perpetuate this rat-hole, but the pedant in me requires the observation that you don’t appear to have fully understood the ‘either – or’ proposition to which you responded.
In particular, one part of wirerat1′s contention was that if the woman enjoys the unilateral right to walk away from a pregnancy by terminating it, then the father should have a similar right to walk away from it up to the end of the period when the woman has the legal right to terminate it (possibly due to this decision by the father). I doubt that his/her main contention was that the father have the right to compel the mother to carry the child to term.
Rachel is an important case, since at one point she appeared to be a strong voice for real progressive goals but lately has devolved into a party-line cheerleader (certainly on the health-care ‘reform’ issue, and she’s showing signs in other area as well – though I’ve been too disgusted recently to follow her closely).
So ‘party whore’ might be a more apt description than ‘corporate whore’, though in practice she has wound up carrying corporate water by helping the party do so.
This is not because she’s clueless, since she observed quite recently (after the House ‘public option letter’ started picking up steam in the Senate) that the party would ignore the PO and single-payer options ‘at their peril’. But she appeared to forget that comment very soon after she made it, and since has loyally promoted the Obama line (including the occasional reference to how important passing this sham was to the future of the party and a readiness to attempt to marginalize any on the left who felt differently).
She would be a great asset if there were some way to get her back on a legitimately progressive track, but I see no indication that there is.
Yep, was just thinking about Rachel and our “progressive” media. I feel entirely lost. Lost. I remain stunned that this bill was an abomination in mid December and then became the greatest liberal victory in 45 years once they figured out a way to pass it. Eyes open. Not easy. I will talk in non sentences forever I guess. Again what happened to the only story I can’t get out of my head-you know the one about Obama killing the public option 9 months ago? Isn’t that like the major story of the fucking year? Kabuki theater indeed.
As I said on another post-where do we find a new language when we don’t even exist? There is no liberal dissent shown..just easy mocking of right wing loons.
How can you watch people you respected like Rachel Maddow turn into tribalists and then still be able to believe anything they say? My husband says oh they just think passing the bill is better than not passing it. Bullshit. They know it’s crap and they are going along to be part of the team and keep their job. Fine but I ain’t gonna go along.
At least Dennis Kuchinch didn’t say the bill itself was worth it. Just the illusion of the Obama presidency that he for reasons I cannot fathom still believes in.
It may still be worth evaluating just where on the ‘sell-out’ spectrum specific people and organizations lie. For example, while they both qualify for condemnation, I place Obama at one end of that spectrum (I’ll never in any way trust him) and Kucinich close to the opposite end (hence he still might be worth talking with even if not worth supporting until such time as he explicitly recants).
Similarly, while MoveOn has disgusted me for at least the past two years (they clearly have an agenda, at the top of which is being a ‘player’ regardless of what it takes), DFA is far less knee-jerk. They inherited Dean’s personal commitment to doing nothing to damage the party while within that constraint doing everything they could to reform it, a position which I don’t agree with but do respect (all the more because in Dean’s case he was so up-front about it from early 2003 onward). Right up until the end they were promoting the PO, though stopped short of demanding that the bill be defeated if it lacked one – and they’re now supporting those who were vocal in promoting it in Congress (even though they eventually didn’t back that up by defeating the sham that actually passed).
Even PDA has a checkered record of reluctantly supporting Democrats in a pinch regardless of how progressive they appeared (especially in 2004 and IIRC 2006), but since the 2008 election seems to have been pretty much on the side of the angels.
There are people out there who may not agree 100% with what many here believe but who still have sufficiently strong common interests that we could work with them and even possibly ‘enlighten’ them. I tend to be a bit too far out on the fringe to be very good at that, but I can be quieter if necessary (or just continue to represent the extreme which makes the average position here look relatively moderate).
In every successful rebellion and revolution, the fight has begun with a fight within the insurgent camp. In broad strokes, what has to be settled is WHETHER to fight. Once that is agreed, you can proceed. If that is unresolved, knives in the back are guaranteed.
My guess that it was not threats against Kucinish himself that caused him to fold. It’s like in Nazi-occupied France. The Nazis would round up the villagers, and if the Resistance did anything, the entire village would be massacred.
Thus I think it likely that what Obama threatened was to hurt the people of Cleveland, cut funding, cut services, do things that, for the poor, literally mean death. I think caving in was the wrong thing for Kucinich to do, but in the absence of support from the so-called progressive community, it was a very human thing for him to do.
Well and concisely put. And that was indeed what the post’s title promised, though it did kind of get lost in all the focus on abortion in its body.
So how do we counteract that rather than just remain a relatively small and successfully-marginalized tribe of our own? FDL was a really comforting place to come when the extent and complete success of Obama’s health-care betrayal became undeniable (not that there weren’t plenty of other similar betrayals, but this was the most blatant), but I’d like to think that we can mount something worthy of being considered a real counter-offensive.
National Democrats and their apologists have been very effective at playing the ‘lesser of two evils’ card against most progressives since 2004. I will now start voting Republican for national offices as the most appropriate response I can think of (voting for third-party progressives or leaving national ballot slots blank since early 2004 may have been personally satisfying but does not seem to have actually been productive, whereas ‘throwing the bums out’ would at least potentially leave a vacuum that more deserving representation – new Democrats vowing their commitment to progressive values would be acceptable to me – could then fill), but I’d REALLY like a better option.
What can we do to gain back those real progressives who have been seduced away by tribalism? The kind of brute-force opposition that I tend to fall into isn’t effective: at best I can sometimes obtain grudging admission that I have a point without getting any real acceptance of its validity. Surely there are some here with more political acumen than that: please share it.
So you’re guessing that Obama threatened to cut funding and kill the poor people that Kucinich represents?
Seriously?
“What does it say about those steely-eyed ‘pragmatists’ who castigated . . .” single-payer” ” . . . dissent within their own party when . . . ” enhanced Medicare for All was “. . . deemed an acceptable sacrifice?”
Actually anti-abortion-rights
This is fairly standard practice, actually. Cut projects. Cut funding. This was the kind of thing lots of people wanted to do to Joe Lieberman. Standard congressional hardball. Was Obama hoping to kill innocent people? I doubt that. But in these times, wouldn’t that be a consequence?
Or do you have an alternate explanation?
Do I have an alternate explanation for Kucinich’s switched vote?
I have several guesses, equal to yours in absence of any evidence.
Start with the always more popular “more carrots” instead of “more sticks”
It’s a boatload easier and smarter to reward Kucinich and his district rather than to screw him over. Obama can throw a big bunch of money at the district and the congressman. people may not long remember favors, but they don’t forget harms.
Kucinich is possibly having money troubles,
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/fundraising/89165-despite-sending-dccc-e-mail-kucinich-has-come-up-short-on-dues
and I hear there was some talk from Kucinich about finding funds for Ohio homeowners
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN296510520100329?type=marketsNews
and now money seems to have been found.
Several thoughts.
I still love Rachel Maddow, but I am definitely disappointed in her recent reporting on the health care bill and frequent guesting Ezra Klein.
I feel the same way about Keith Olbermann. What happened to the fellow who swore if this corporate bill with a mandate passed he’d give up his own insurance and refuse to buy insurance or pay the fine, no matter what the cost? How did his show instead become a platform for Kos?
What really hurt me about the MSNBC “progressives” was Ed Schultz’s complete cave-in. He went from “Kill the Bill” to “we have to pass this bill now.” It seems his reward was to be able to do the play by play for the passing of the Senate bill in the House.
During this time Jane and Glen have been lifesavers for me, keeping me afloat in a sea of insanity.
One other thing. I read a lot in these comments about the Firedog Lake family. I’d really like to be a part of that too. But I don’t have the time to keep up in the exchange. One or two comments in one or two posts a day is about all I can do. but I’d like to be a part of it all.
Who Am I? I’m a 55 year old woman who lives in Bellingham, Washington with my 85 year old mother in the same house I grew up in, along with my 29 year old college student son and my 27 year old unemployed, musician son. My only other child is my 23 year old college student son who lives nearby in his own place but is over here a lot. I raised them as a single parent since they were 10, 8 and 4.
I am a mental health counselor and do problem gambling counseling and counseling children recovering from trauma. I work for an Indian tribe and work mainly with tribal people. I am a Gael (Scots & Eire) myself with a smidgen of Cajun and a little English (hey we all have something we’re not happy about.) I used to be a Presbyterian Pastor and then an Ecumenical Pastor. I left the ministry when I accepted my transsexuality and started my transition from male to female in 1995.
I was a Democrat in my youth, drank the kool-aid in my early middle age and became a Libertarian and got in the GOP. (That was mainly due to the influence of Robert Heinlein.) I woke up in the 90s when I couldn’t ignore anymore that the whole small government thing wasn’t really about empowering the average person but about allowing the plutocrats to rape the average person. It also was hard to stay on the extreme right when two things happened- I changed sex and I went on the internet and got exposed to what others on the extreme right were really all about. My move back to the Left quickly took me far beyond my early Democratic loyalty in my youth. Basically I went from hating Clinton to hating Clinton but for totally opposite reasons. Oh well. However, I saw myself as a Democrat, just a very progressive one. My latest political journey is struggling with whether I can still call myself a Democrat or if I’m just too far to the Left for that now. I was a big Obama fan in 2008 and am one of those who in 2009 realized I had again been tricked.
So that’s who I am. I hope a few comments once in a while can make me part of the family. Oh, I should add I post under the same pen name in HuffPo, Common Dreams and Open Left.
Wonderful comment… thanks so much for sharing.
That’s not out of line with my interpretation. The reason I lean the way I do is that I think the offers of goodies would have been made a while ago. For him to turn at the virtual last minute implies to me that there was a threat involved, and given his long-standing record of courage, I don’t think a threat personal to him would have worked.
But I am certainly willing to consider other possibilities.
Perhaps it was improper to compare Obama to the Nazis. It’s easy to get steamed because the consequences of Democratic timidity during this great recession is really destroying people’s lives, particularly people already at the margins.
every one gets steamed at times, certainly I more than most and I’ve been known to say outrageous stuff. I’m glad that you can recognize it quicker than I usually do.
here’s something that Kucinich posted that was linked to in somebody’s Seminal diary.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/3/29/852279/-Why-I-Voted-Yes
Well, yes – that was part of my point about the body of Jane’s post being so single-issue, even though its title was not. I doubt that these two even come close to exhausting the possible examples.
If you have time for reading, you might try Neal Stephenson – a Heinlein descendant and excellent writer. His Cryptonomicon and Baroque cycle are stellar, and his earlier work is very enjoyable.
I read most of my Heinlein well before arriving at voting age or becoming politically aware, so I just took in his libertarian ideas as one part of rather than an entire world-view. Even rereading him more recently he doesn’t strike me as unduly doctrinaire – just robustly distrustful of government (and these days, aren’t we all?).
I think that most people eventually arrive at a state where they’re made up of many different influences which they balance with varying success. On my more optimistic days that suggests to me that we all have some things in common on which to build communication, and differences from which we can learn.
As for using a common posting name, that does make it easier for acquaintances in one venue to recognize you in another. Of course, that applies to people you might prefer to avoid as well.
An interesting link. Of course, he had to say something, and the question remains since he couldn’t just say “I was threatened,” or “our region was threatened.”
Don’t the conservatives/libs think that Obama is a Socialist and that the Progressives are FAR Left Socialists?
The labels we use about ourselves and our perceived opponents, by themselves create confusion, mis-perceptions and mistrust.
With that said, I’m not aware of any constructive method that could be used to remove those mis-perceptions without a formidable national voice.
Civil Liberties, Corporatist Control of Government, Fiscal Responsibility and Compassion for the Underprivileged may be areas of agreement. I’m sure there are many others.
What would be the result if that voice would carry a message to all listeners/viewers of MSM, Radio and especially MSNBC/Faux stating who Progressives are, what we are, and reinforcing the commonality with other groups?
Ok, I’ll stop being the PollyAnna now
“Therefore, since the goal of the bill is not restricting a woman’s right to choose, the fact that it does so anyway is just a coincidence and therefore not a valid reason to object to the bill’s passage.”
But the Bill DOES seek to restrict it, as the Bill could easily have been written to ensure that women with fedgov subsidies couldn’t use them for abortions, instead of applying to whole private plans thereby restricting people who don’t receive fedgov subsidies.
It’s getting harder and harder to figure out WHO the D-Party represents any more other than corporate interests, and the upper middle class that watches its investment portfolio getting bigger while putting into place policies that help their taxes get smaller.
Just like the Republicans, only more hypocritical.
“If you have time for reading, you might try Neal Stephenson – a Heinlein descendant and excellent writer. His Cryptonomicon and Baroque cycle are stellar, and his earlier work is very enjoyable.”
I love Stephenson. Cryptonomicon is mesmerizing and gave me real insights to the shark nature of the corporate world. I am afraid, though, that I coudn’t maintain interest in his Baroque Cycle about a third of the way through the first book.
My taste now is definitely more towards the fantastic and gothic. My favorite Neal is Neal Gaiman. Of course my favorite Heinlein protege is Spider Robinson. I should check and see if Spider’s got any new works out lately, it’s been a bit of time since I last checked. I also like Tim Powers, whom I met once in internet chat and when he revealed who he was and I told him I was a fan he sent me a box of books for free. I still think of him as a friend.