Just before the House passed the health care bil, Nancy Pelosi sent out a letter. In it, she said that “An op-ed by E.J. Dionne on Friday reveals that the current health reform legislation pending before Congress was “built on a series of principles that Republicans espoused for years.” She bolded Dionne’s headline:
Why Democrats Are Fighting for a Republican Health Plan
It’s great that the Speaker of the House is telling people that intellectual credit for the health care bill belongs to the GOP. But Brad DeLong concurs:
Neither Democrats nor Republicans have an incentive to discuss the Republican roots of Obama’s health-care plan. But that doesn’t mean they’re not real—and deep….The conservative DNA of ObamaCare is hardly a secret. “The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan,” [David] Frum wrote. “It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to ClintonCare in 1993-1994.”
DeLong says the Republicans are so busy demonizing the bill for political advantage that they don’t want to admit it’s essentially the plan the GOP has been putting forward for years. He believes that the political calculus for the Democrats was “Romneycare or nothing”:
But if they pointed out the intellectual origins of the plan—oh, and by the way, the guts of the plan came out of the conservative über-think tank, the Heritage Foundation, and it was what Mitt Romney thought was good policy back in 2004—then the left-wing Democrats’ heads would have exploded and their votes would have vanished.
If it was so politically wise for Democrats to pass an essentially Republican plan, one wonders why Obama never campaigned on it. Pursuing this logic, Obama rode into office espousing something that was too wacky and “liberal” to ever pass Congress — even though the majority of Americans supported him for it.
I think Armando calls the out the laughable notion of this bill being a “progressive victory” most succinctly:
The fact that is is a conservative bill filled with Republican ideas does not make it bad substantively. But it certainly does make it hard to argue it is the greatest progressive achievement since Medicare. Indeed, that has been a long standing point for me – comparing the health bills to Medicare is absurd. Medicare and Obamacare take two fundamentally different paths. Medicare adopted a public insurance based approach and Obamacare took a regulated private health insurance market approach. One is the progressive approach – Medicare. One is a conservative approach – Obamacare. Whatever the merits of the health bills, surely adherence to progressive ideas on health care is not one of them.
It has been both dissociative and bizarre to watch progressive veal pen organizations line up behind this bill, but their support was critical to the party both when it came to invalidating progressive opposition and whipping Congressional Democrats (ironically from the right, while pretending they came from the left). But after they didn’t need them any more, leadership couldn’t wait to start throwing these outfits under the bus, laughing at what chumps they’d all been. It was just too irresistible.
Right now the veal penners are patting themselves on the back for their pragmatism, their steely eyed realism as they enjoy their moment of unity with the “pack.” But they are already being mocked by the media for abandoning their principles, for getting hoodwinked into throwing their weight behind a Republican bill, for being suckered by an oh so clever President who kicked their asses in a masterful game of 11 dimensional chess. They’re ridiculed for participating in their own ritual humiliation — by the very people they thought they were helping. The Speaker of the fucking House does not release something like this unless she’s chortling uncontrollably at them for thinking they would now get to be members of the “club.” As I wrote the last time it happened, “Nancy Pelosi laughs at progressives — and so should you.”
Armando says: “Shorter E.J. Dionne – progressives got rolled.”
The health care debate was essentially a fight between political parties, not political philosophies. And the public understood that (via Scott Payne):
If Bush had tried to pass this bill the entire progressive movement (such as it is) would have squealed like stuck pigs, with the volume and intensity they responded to Bush’s privatization of Social Security. Instead, we’re hearing about the “twilight of the interest groups” and the second coming of Abe Lincoln. It’s no surprise that Pelosi and others are trumpeting the bill’s conservative underpinnings today: now that they no longer need liberal veal pen validators to whip Democrats in order to pass it, they are anxious to insulate themselves from GOP attack by distancing themselves from progressives once again and trumpeting the bill’s Heritage Foundation roots. The question is why anyone was ever hoodwinked into thinking this was a “progressive” victory simply because the Republicans were against it. It was a Democratic party victory.
The White House is betting that those who committed themselves to Obama during the campaign won’t be bothered if he triangulates againsth is own campaign rhetoric and passes a right-wing health care bill — that their commitment to the ideals of the campaign will be trumped by their commitment to him as a personality. They may well be right. And the interest groups? Well, have a look at ACORN, because that’s where the dumb ones are headed. The smart ones (and they know who they are) got their payoffs.
In the end, “progressives” should be honest and admit that they are clapping for a health care plan that most found to be moral anathema when the GOP proposed it in 1994, and that going forward they will settle for nothing from the Democrats. And like it.
On the Republican side, there is a huge gap between the GOP corporatism of this bill and the libertarian anti-tax critique that the GOP is attempting to harvest with their “stop the mandate” ballot initiative campaign. But since the GOP won’t have to take responsibility for passing this bill, they can exploit it to turn out the vote in November without much fear of anybody noticing. Democrats will protect themselves by blaming the “liberals” for the bill’s shortcomings, and run to the right — as if they weren’t already there.
Before it’s all over, this thing is gonna make NAFTA look like the Emancipation Proclamation. And as for NAFTA itself — well, when Bart Stupak tries to repeal it, progressive leading lights will no doubt oppose him on the grounds that the President thinks he’s “icky.”




304 Comments








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About FDL Action
i wish the country had gotten romneycare — a far better policy than obamacare (or even the house bill).
how sad is that? (rhetorical question only)
yep. turns out obama is both a master at 11 dimensional chess and he was playing his game.
we just lost.
Are they really that stupid? They could be proposing an invasion of Iran and
repeal of the income tax, and they would still be taking incoming fire from the right.
To reiterate something I said on an earlier thread, the turning of Kucinich had nothing to do with the close calculus of the final vote, for the Stupak block was always the key. Kucinich was the lone holdout on the left, and the only voice within the dem congress that could delegitimize obamacare. Getting his vote, no matter how he justified it afterwords, silenced any leftward descent w/in the institution. Totally gratuitous and totally strong-arm political game play. Now the left has no one they can trust in a position of even weak power. everybody says lets primary this one or that, but look how fast Donna Edwards joined the Obama bandwagon. And none of these people have any fear that they will be called out from the left because pelosi and the dlcc money have their back. A third party has never done much more than be a spoiler in our system so… Maybe all dem challengers should have to put up their house and their pension so that they contractually lose both if they change a vote they campaigned on, the proceeds to be used by a primary opponent.
What’s even more twisted is that even an effort to hold Michael Bennet accountable for his grand-standing and lies is shunned for possibly “wrecking” things and raining on the big party. The most generous thing I can say about this environment is that people are so used to losing to Republicans and so beaten down by the conservative machine, that they’ll take anything and tout it as a progressive victory.
“Progressivism” to some is just an arbitrary term; something that can be pushed aside casually when the chips are down, and doesn’t benefit someone politically. When I see the mindless celebration of “victory” over a bill that is fundamentally conservative I feel completely defeated. I feel these “progressives” really betrayed the values they have been fighting this whole time for a cheep political win. I refuse to be apart of this “lesser of two evils” mentality anymore. Besides, what do we really gain with that type of thinking? I’ve considered become a member of the Green Party simply because the Democrats don’t serve the beliefs that I’m committed to anymore. They have become center-right, with a few liberals. We all need to get real, and stop being used by the democrats only when it suits them politically.
Moooo!
Brad DeLong
It’s a damn shame that the Democratic leadership doesn’t or can’t treat their moderate members the way the Republican leadership treats its…
Someone will have to write an Encyclopedia of Douchebaggery to chronicle the bahaviour of the Democratic activists during this period of history.
You know what republicans, heck the media, are failing to acknowledge about the heath bill, is the education part. If all these doctors are going to leave they need to make sure there will be replacements. Check the scope on the education legislation in the health bill
http://wendygdphillips.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/the-%E2%80%9Cother%E2%80%9D-bill/
Minor typo, paragraph below the chart:
Should be “was”?
The GOP unleashed the Club for Growth to whip their “moderates” and threatened to primary them if they didn’t toe the party line.
The Democrats unleashed the unions to whip their “moderates” and threatened to primary them if they didn’t toe the party line.
If there’s a meaningful difference there, I don’t see it — except for the irony that the Blue Dogs were responsible for loading down the health care bill with all its most toxic corporatist crap, and now are most at risk paying the price for it.
Which is much more satisfying than anything that might happen to Lincoln Chafee or Arlen Specter.
Thank you again and again, Jane.
The NAFTA reference piqued my curiosity: is there a Marcy time line somewhere in the back closet that traces the parallel history of NAFTA?
** the whipping of reasons why it needed to happen;
** the reassurances that the problems some folks were seeing a) weren’t really all that bad; or b) would get “fixed later;”
** the round-up of the pundits to push the thing?
I’ve just made up all these elements, but I think it would be useful to draw some comparisons about this whole MO. It’s been used so many times now — Iraq, TARP, FISA, Patriot Act — that I’m sure there’s both a time line, a roster of the major players, and a schedule of the actions leading up to the bad result.
The names may change [well, except for Rahm], but the roll-out and result sure look the same.
I thought the Blue Dogs all got released to vote against it? Instead, “liberals” [such as they were] were goaded into voting “yea” so Blue Dogs would be free to vote “nay.”
Am I misunderstanding here? [I concur that the Blue Dogs (or Obama's efforts to win Blue Dog support) loaded the bill with crap.]
I’d also add to my list above [time for editing has expired]
** the trashing of the critics
I think it would be quite useful to have a “follow-up” on several of these disgusting pieces of legislation, comparing the original claims, the original criticisms, and an evaluation of where we are now. [Otherwise known as "how did that work out for you?"]
Now I would love some links to that [media bashing of the veal pen occupants]!
Links!! I want some links [to media bashing of the ven penners].
Why not just have a Veal Pen blog roll?
You know, tnr.com, samefacts.com, dailykos.com, etc.
Will save a lot of unnecessary googling.
Your comment about a third party is actually what the two parties in power currently WANT you to believe. There have been third party candidates that have won…example Jesse Ventura. If there was ever a time when people WOULD vote for a 3rd party candidate, this is probably it. Here are interesting articles on this myth.
http://www.ypa.org/article.php?article=0030
http://www.the13thstory.com/krg/words/myths.html
My god, you’ve gotten so tedious, Jane.
Not everybody. I am saying primary them all. Jane Hamsher, a while back, said any Democrat voting for a bill restricting abortion rights should be primaried. That’s very different from “primary this one or that.”
So, in case I’m not being clear: PRIMARY THEM ALL!!!
We didn’t lose, it was the idiots that went along with it. We still have our integrity.
So long as the goal of keeping PhRMA et al from running $100 million or so worth of Harry and Louise ads this election cycle is achieved, Obama and particularly Rahm (who was the guy who gave us NAFTA and who was a prime mover in the Clinton HCR battle) pretty much don’t care, it would seem.
And this debunks her statements how?
Jane, a while back, you said any Democrat voting for a bill restricting abortion rights should be primaried.
Was that just big talk, or did you mean it. Now it’s the clear light of day. Are you going to run a post entitled, “Primary them All”? Are you going to start raising a fund to put it to them in 2012?
Or is your good rhetoric trumped by your friendships with the ActBlue folks who went along with the abortion-restricting bill?
Inquiring minds want to know.
thank you for making my point far better then I could.
That’ll have to wait for 2012 — one of the reasons this got dragged out so long was because nervous Capitol Hillers wanted to make sure the deadlines for filing primary challenges in their respective states had passed before they dared commit to this thing.
Of course. I understand that 2012 is when we have to make this move. That’s the Full Court Press plan, by the way. The question is whether progressives have a longer attention span than a 3-year-old and can plan that far ahead. Or is this old news and they are preparing to get clobbered by the next outrage. And the one after that.
Speaking as a Minnesotan, Jesse won largely because he got a ton of non-voters to vote for him — something neither Norm Coleman nor Skip Humphrey (or Roger Moe, the Democratic kingmaker who talked Jesse into running in the first place, hoping to siphon off votes from Norm) thought would happen.
If he was a touch less ego-driven and a touch more compassionate, he would have been among the best governors Minnesota ever had. As it was, he was better than the absentee governor we have now.
Obama would not campaign on what came to be known as Obamacare but which should be considered health care à la the Republican Party because the voters found single payer and public option plans more appealing. Obama and his Party hoodwinked more than the progressives in the party. The Democrats betrayed the common American.
To flog a dead horse. This bill goes further in eroding women’s rights than the GOP could have gotten away with. The Executive Order signed for purely
monetarypolitical reasons by a weak, disingenuous, democratic president goes further than even the Hyde amendment. IT is an EO that will result in thousands of women not being able to have the choice of control over their own bodies. It is not acceptable to any of us that believe in Human Rights.A-yep. Planning ahead and doing unglamourous grunt work and (eeeek!) getting up from the computer to doorknock and lit-drop!
Slightly longer – progressives got rolled by their party leadership and their supporters who failed to admit that they understood ahead of time that this was a Republican sellout.
You’ve sent me many emails about your own project to do just that. You spam links in our comments to your site all the time.
I didn’t realize it had been a failure so quickly. That’s too bad.
We have an organization to recruit primary challengers in all parties, it’s called Accountability Now. I know it’s a hard task to recruit Democratic challengers in this environment, but if you can’t do it, chiding others to do the work for you because you’ve failed doesn’t seem productive.
Maybe a diary about all your efforts, and how they didn’t work, would be helpful so others can learn from your mistakes?
Good Morning Jane and Firedogs -
this just in . . .
Obama To Host Pro-Life Dems For Abortion Executive Order Signing
today at 2:30. closed to the Press
wonder if DeGette and the other handmaid’s will be serving cocktails and hors d’oeuvres
link
Heck, I’ve been saying all along that this resembles nothing so much as the Republican alternative to the Clinton plan. No wonder “ex” Republican Markos supports it.
My spouse, a director of a women’s health center, and I heard that this morning on Newly Partisan Radio. The vileness of this man is getting me down.
I do not know if you have read the EO yet but please do so, it is short, mean, malicious and very dangerous for women.
Extreme mendacity in the defense of neoneoliberalism is no vice.
Markos won’t be happy until he has fixed all of the minor problems he had as an R by molding the Ds in that perfect image. What with the Army being the perfect society and all armies being driven by chain of command he can probably see the light at the end of the tunnel already.
Indeed!
I wonder who the genius was who attached the penalty for not having health insurance to the IRS for collection. “Hmm, that’s should lose us some more votes.”
The irony is that if there had been a true single-payer none of these constitutionally dubious sleight of hands would have been necessary.
Ugh! Right? Wearing their skimpy French maid and Playboy Bunny costumes. I wouldn’t expect anything else from a bunch of NARAL zombies though. They’re keeping their powder dry, (while Orahma takes away their guns)
I believe that in that history you will find that we are repeating some it.
e.g pubs try to impeach Clinton and all the democrats spend all their energy defending him, while he screwed the middle class and poor.
Now: they attack Obama, racism, birthers, tea baggers and people like Rachel, Keith, all (most)the progressive radio stations spend all there time defending the presidency of Obama while he puts the screws to the poor and middle class and completes privatizing of our country. And then in 8 years all those progressive radio and tv show hosts can lament about what Obama did to this country.
Thank you so much for your response.
I recognize that I am small and meek. But since the Full Court Press plan has been aimed at 2012 from the very beginning, because we are aware of the difficulties of lining up candidates, calling it a failure might be a bit premature. How many candidates has your group lined up for 2012? See?
At this point, we are explicitly focused on winning others to this perspective. Call it chiding? Whatever.
Accountability Now is recruiting challengers in all parties? Great. On what basis? That is my gripe with ActBlue. They find candidates a whisker to the left of a Blue Dog, and then we wonder why we end up with just another liberal who votes for a bill containing Nelson.
The fact is that you were calling for them all to be primaried. When I questioned that, I was excoriated since you are such a radical leader. Seems like I was right to question you.
As for my chiding you, to quote from Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility.
I enjoyed my job in the Navy. I really did. Where else can a high school drop out succeed beyond any expectations working on the highest performance fighter jet ever made? Absolutely loved my job and wish I could do it again. As for the society? Backwards, authoritarian, reductionist and simplistic. One of these days, I’m going to be able to marry professional contentment with private happiness.
Excuse the rudeness, but who’s the asshole flooding the Seminal with old Jane Hamsher posts? None of them are available for comment, and one trots out the mistakes made on the Jonathan Gruber matter uncorrected. Whoever it is, this site suffers when people propagandize. And there can be no more complete propaganda at a blog site than to disallow comments on posts.
What shit.
If this health care debate has solved anything, it is the mystery over what happened to all the moderate Republicans.
They now inhabit and control the Democratic party.
The largest block of voters is the independent block. They end up being split in the current system because of the one party (two-faced) strategem. If people could be made to realize they are being played for chumps, it really shouldn’t be that hard to split votes away from the two lessor political labels and win with a different one. After getting hope-a-doped, anybody with a D or an R beside their name will not get my vote. If enough sensible/had-it-up-to-here people do the same we could upset the apple cart. If not, big effing deal, we get more of the same.
Ouch! Please remind me not to irritate you. :-)
“Clutching spear through chest, falls to ground”…
As a fellow Minnesotan, “a ton of Non-voters”. My point exactly. We need to put up candidates to get the non-voters to vote. I am sick and tired of the democrats saying they have to get the republican votes. Why don’t they get the real democrats and others that no longer have anyone to vote for?
Same day registration, did not hurt either.
yes I have read it and concur mightily.
again Nom, mad progressive love and props to Mrs Nom
Great post! I tried to write something like this in a diary a few days ago on DK and it wasn’t anywhere near so coherent or hard hitting. It was fun, however, to (attempt to) beard the DLC in its’ lair.
My husband works with tons of republicans and every day he goes to work, he tells them he does not understand why they don’t love obama, he is a republican.
Wow! I didn’t know he was a sandgorgon.
and thank you Jane Hamsher for keeping it real !
the obligatory puff pieces on how Speaker Pelosi was the ‘true hero’ of getting this passed are popping up all over today
I wasn’t attempting to imply anything about your experiences. The reference was about a quote from Marcos. Sorry for the failure to make that more explicit.
Yeah, it’s best to duck when Jane is irritated. She uses a flamethrower. :-)
No, no. No misunderstanding on my part. I was agreeing with your assessment of military society.
Good morning CBL!
Got that club handy?
Instead of throwing insults why don’t you try rebutting Jane’s arguments with facts?
Oh … you can’t, can you? That’s the whole point. You are in the veal pen and in the veal pen facts don’t matter. It’s just blind cheerleading in the hope that you can be one of the kool kidz. So when someone comes along and tells you the truth, they must be demonized.
Very much appreciated thank you ♡.
It appears it was a true genius. They did it to make it constitutional. You can not force Americans to buy anything, but you can tax them if they don’t. As if this corporate Supreme Court would not side with this sell out to the corporates bill.
Rudeness expected. Too bad some folks can’t simply forgive and forget, eh?
Exactly the problem. There are way too many “progressives” who believe in false pragmatism over substance. Do they understand that progressives will never move the country in the correct direction when those pragmatic types refuse to fight for basic principles?
just finished re-tarrin’ her and headed over to FB – Go Team ! :D
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup freedom Fighters:
Good post…agree with most of it but I wonder if there isn’t a bit more to it than simply bein’ rolled by a couple a smooth operators (Phony Pelsoi and Obama). I would like to know what this whole thing tells us about the topography of power between the White House and congress and where is Rahm in all this. I’m gettin’ the feeling that the only way Rahm stays in the White House is as a lightening rod, whipping boy or straw dog. Where is the balance of power now and how is it gunna show up in the jobs and bankin’ legislation moving forward into the fall elections? The Huffington Post had a piece about Al Franken callin’ Axelrod out in February after he had been bustin his ass for a year for the public option only to be told to get back in the barn…I’m not sure there isn’t some dawning awareness among some Democrats that unless they get their shit together they’re gunna get their asses handed to ‘em in November, no matter what the New York Times says.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE STRUGGLE GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Apparently I’m not being very clear or cogent this morning. It happens. Maybe I should go out on the porch for a bit.
Jane, let me keep it simple. Do you think Nancy Pelosi, who strong-armed this rotten deal through, should be primaried in 2012? Yes or no.
File this under the last lame-ass reason for killing the public option:
Shorter: The Senate is saying they can’t trust the House to ratify a public option.
How boorish of you, Jane, to poop on the party. Taibbi also wrote about the Pelosi letter, which could well become infamous.
http://trueslant.com/matttaibbi/2010/03/22/baby-killers/
I have a name for those people. I call them “Republicans”
She should have been primaried out after taking impeachment off the table, IMO. A primary now is a few years too late.
I call them Kossacks.
(Ugh. I still read the Great Orange Satan. But they’ve got no fight in ‘em)
Citizen Margaret:
So they gave ya the keys to the porch, did they, great news!! Have some for me, dear.
Come on. The Senate was never going to put a public option in. The only thing more offensive than their corporate shilling was how stupid they think we are. Kabuki is not reality except in the MSM.
M’eh. What’s the difference? Except Republicans are red and Kossacks are orange.
That’s rich. In a “Daahhhling, let’s have anotha vodka and kool-aid mahtini” kind of way. You should knock back one more and go celebrate your
progressiverepublican victory.Jane needs all the ammo she can muster, considering all the wolves she encounters, that are cloaked in blue. The Daily Kos comes to mind.
The posts aren’t open for comment. Jane repeated a mistake made by David Dayen that Jonathan Gruber had a contract with the White House Office of Health Care Reform. He didn’t, it was with the HHS Office of Health Care Reform, and he didn’t report or work for Nancy Ann De Parle. Once is a mistake. Twice is possibly you didn’t get the message. Again and again and again is propaganda and outright lying.
Er…Boehner is as orange as the Great Pumpkin, as one firepup said many threads ago. Rep. too tan.
Those ones are cloaked in orange. ;-)
I have those kinds of feelings all the time. Mostly I just hope that folks can determine what was meant from the attempted structure and skip over my more obvious mistakes.
There is an upside to passing this bill. Since there are no cost controls, medical costs will continue to increase dramatically and the insurance companies will raise their rates as much as they can get away with (and then some). People will soon realize the bill is a failure and demand real cost controls – a robust public option or single payer. It’s just a matter of time. And it won’t be that long, either.
Do not respond to trolls derailing an important thread…just skip right on by. ;-))
Jane
I favor some strong but perhaps not so publicized (at this time) recruitment of candidates to oppose conservative Democrats. I would not favor opposition to the traditionally liberal Democrats who we feel abandoned us this one time over this one time piece of legislation.
You asked for suggestions the other day. This is more a response to that than today’s.
Obama is a conservative. His ideology is conservative and what legislation he inspires will have that mark. We have to measure how much and quality of effort it will take to add our mark also in the laws. Any concession, small as it may be is a victory for liberals.
On health insurance one could see it coming. He began triangulating the liberal wing early. The liberals in Congress, in particular the House, neutralized that to a large extent by never taking the bait to turn on the administration directly. (I personally wish they had been more critical of the Blue Dogs or at least not discouraged outside groups doing so but…)
Whether it is good strategy I don’t know but FDL made the choice to remain consistent and has so far not been the object of more triangulation.
Maybe it is just my nature to be wishy washy and I should just shut up. But I really feel, that this is not the time to mount aggressive opposition to those who are our nearest ideological neighbors.
I would prefer to focus on the positive which in my opinion is huge in its symbolism. That being the new law is an affirmation by the Democratic Congress and President that health care is a human right. I am not certain Obama would have on his own grasped that opportunity. He certainly began the process favoring and talking about the money people. Personally I give Pelosi and the liberals credit for forcing that turn..
You mean BONER? I don’t care what he says, I know a whole lot of Americans with that string of letters in their names and the “O” is always hard. (heh, just some accidental humor)
New post up top…
Dear Speaker Pelosi:
“We will see if this market-based system works. If it doesn’t, single-payer plans and public options will look more attractive.”
We know the market-based systemm does not work, because it’s what we had for the last 50 years. It’s unable to contine costs for comsumers, becuase insurance has evey incentive not to cut consumers costs, skimming 15%-20% of the take.
Insanity is repeating the same while expecting a different result. But you are not insane. You, and your collegues are honest politicians. You remain bought.
WTF is a pro-life Dem for abortion? Is Tommy Friedman writing Josh’s ledes now?
I still have the tire marks from the bus running over my back. I’m sure they will have healed by 2010 and 2012, when I sit home on my old, fat ass. I would be more than happy to vote for a third party candidate if a reasonably sane one could be found, but the myth of the “two” party system will be with us for many, many years because that’s the way the deck is stacked. We’re fucked. Always have been and always will be. Unless something drastic happens.
Jane, you’re head and shoulders above any journalist in recent memory.
The White House determines the roles and responsibilities of all of those agencies that it controls. That is the the effect of the much glorified chain of command. You simply want to change the effect of Gruber being an obvious mouthpiece for administration policy by pretending that HHS is an autonomous branch of government.
Heh. The Mr. makes that point every time Too Tan comes up in conversation.
No worries! ;-)
It’s as likely my synapes are still in la la land. :-)
“My first act as President will be to pass the Freedom of Choice Act”
or
“No insurance company will be able to turn a child down for coverage”
ya mean like that ? ’cause I’m sure you’re all over that and not embroiled in some petty vendetta involving perceived personal slights in the blogisphere, right ?
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I’m gettin’ the feelin’ that the Lake is bein’ targeted by the “counter revolutionary guard” led by that cleverly fierce Andremanure, Marcos M and the mighty KOS. And I wonder if we aren’t left open to the attacks when in response we huddle together in a defensive circle, sharin’ the safety of secret handshakes and membership tatoos. This place is sufferin’ from an inability to open itself up in the face of pressure from outside the inner cadre of cool kids…defensiveness and paranoia are even hurting the quality of snark around this place. Firepups, stay cool and don’t shoot the friendlies.
Since the bill has passed isn’t it time for the pragmatic, steely eyed realists to join in pushing for some real reform. All their reasons for going with this limited bill instead of something stronger have expired, right?
Are there any particularly good amendments coming up in the Senate?
What trash. You don’t know how the federal government operates, do you? Did you catch the debate over the role of the OLC at DoJ at all during the last few years? The agencies operate with some autonomy, and the contract numbers went to a person in HHS who has the role of checking — called evaluation — the economic numbers on all of the projects within the agency. Nancy Ann De Parle was/is part of White House Staff, coordinating the administration’s efforts.
You simply have no idea what people like Jonathan Gruber do for a living, don’t understand government funding and contracting, and have a propaganda case to make, so you slur over obvious divides within the government.
Are you the one who put up the old pieces at Seminal? I wouldn’t mind, and would take my objections and put them up coherently at the proper post, except that whoever keeps doing that (and it keeps happening on a lot of subjects) never re-opens the comments or re-starts the comment field for new comments. The effect is whoever has this power is propagandizing, putting up non-critiqued pieces that suit their agenda with no rebuttal from those who disagree.
They should revoke the privilege.
So the Republican Party, which ran as a third party in 1856, has never been anything than a spoiler?
I’m with you Norske. I want to work with the Kossacks. The problem is that Kossacks are claiming that we firebaggers are obstructing the great O’s agenda.
There is a real and palpable difference of opinion.
Me too. Has anyone in the corporate media ever done anything besides praise this bill as the best invention since sliced bread?
The real (but publically unspoken) reason conservatives object to universal health care is that it disproportionately benefits racial minorities, who are twice as likely to be uninsured. Republicans loathe the prospect of sharing their family doctor with newly covered blacks and hispanics.
What HCR does is overcome the racial barrier. Now that all those “vile” minorities are getting health care anyway, conservatives will be inclined to support a less expensive way of doing it. Once the dust settles this should open the door to single payer or medicare for all.
But be sure to keep it within the (Democratic) Party?
Do we even have that?
WHO gives a shit to whom the contract was written? It’s to whom the DEAL was made that matters.
Citizen dick c:
Good question..but I think that the White House either bought out (Bernie Sanders) or put the boot on the necks of all those who might try and offer progressive amendments. There is a huge vacuum waitin for leadership on the left (especially in the Senate) and I wonder where Franken is and what he’s doin’ right now…remember he’s got Paul Wellstone’s seat.
…not the mention the fact that the Kossacks are working hand in hand with turncoat D’s in the Congress to pass this bill at any cost. Kossacks may want progressive change, but they seem unwilling to do much of anything go get the change they want.
I think every single politician should be primaried in every single election, especially in heavily gerrymandered districts with strong one-party leaning. I’ve said so about a million times and started an organization based on that principle.
Think about that diary on all your failures. People could learn a lot from it. I imagine that using google first before you demand people declare things that they’ve said over and over again for years might cut down on them.
If the Republicans ever read this piece, the Democrats are in serious trouble.
There are a few charlatans out there who obsess over imaginary political plans in which they “recruit” all sorts of famous people by mentioning their names over and over again. We used to have that with the Green Party back in the days of USENET. Are you a “recruit”?
Ah, the dirty little secret is finally coming to light.
Democrats are fighting for a Republican POS, while the Republicans are fighting against it as if this Republican POS were socialism itself.
Kabuki gone wild.
Citizen yellowsnapdragon:
I agree but we’ve known about KOS carryin’ bedpans for the White House for awhile now…we hafta listen to those that come into the house with honest questions and the desire to feel that their politics and efforts over the last little while have not been comepletly wasted. Those who are on search and destroy missions can be identified easily, and Firedog snark can take care of those little bastards…unless we’re all so defensive we can’t tell the friendlies from the mercenaries.
And here is what the actual post said, replete with links:
As always, if you have authoritative links that prove anything said in the actual quote is factually untrue, please provide them.
Silver lining alert: How screwed is Romney’s bid for the 2012 primary once his opponents tag him as the author of Obamacare?
As far as the primaries, I remember Obama saying in Ohio that he would overturn it and joining in with Biden, Dodd, and Richardson saying it was a bad idea. (Though Biden, Dodd, and Richardson had voted for it.)
Hillary had said it was a bad idea but had no vote to prove it with her only reasoning being that she voted No in 2003 to extending it to Central American. Obama was off the hook again, like he was with the Iraq vote, because he was not in the Senate yet.
I became a staunch Hillary supporter after Ohio. Obama had given a wink to Canada by sending Austan Goolsbee there saying it was only politics. I was also furious with the mailer he had put out regarding Health Care. It looked kinda like the ad the Republicans put out against Clinton with his health care attempt.
Hillary supporters came out screaming, people who had blogged with KOS and DU and even here throughout the years, over his wink to Nafta and the health care mailer. The left wing blog wars were on, with Hillary supporters that had even written for KOS, banned and cursed off boards.
So my assessment and memory, in relation to now, is this is when the left wing of the Dem party bloggers split. The left was separated from each other like KOS and FDL are experiencing now. I think the veal pen started long ago with Hillary supporters still even splitting with FDL.
And I really wish that part could be different but theer are still hurt feelings on both sides. Hillary supporters would never go back to Kos (though some have to DU). I do hope that FDL bloggers will also hold their guns like Hillary supporters have and never stop confronting KOS as well.
Just heard Grayson on David Sirota show. Going on and on how great this bill is in saving lives. He is going on and on about how this has to be passed. And of course begging for more money for his bomb. He is saying Reid promised a vote on public option this year and said there will one more reconciliation bill this year. How much do you want to bet it will come right before the November election? How much do you want to bet that was their plan all along and that is how Kucinich was bribed to vote for this. Look for upcoming vote on public option to save Reid’s seat.
Citizen Hamsher:
Keep on keepin’ on, Sister Jane, and don’t waste a lotta time tryin’ ta herd the cats here in the main room. A lotta regular Firepups are feelin’ pretty bruised, used and abused right now and we’ve gotta go through a little self-criticism and healin …but I hope you just keep on organizin’ and doin what you do best and report back to us with the information we need to carry the fight where it needs to go.
Yep, the celebration is galling if it goes beyond one day–yesterday. Yes, it is a definitely Republican bill that the Republicans to a representative opposed. And it makes the Congressional Republicans, even the Lamar Alexanders and Dick Lugars look as extreme as the John Cornyns and Michele Bachmanns and Virginia Foxxes. Yes, the progressive groups were played. Yes, Rahm looks happy. And yes, the reconciliation sidecar will be passed if only to ensure that Obama’s reforms to student loans get passed.
And yes, it’s not a progressive bill. But it is more progressive than the status quo. The good stuff takes effect sooner and the bad stuff is left for a few years out. And it provides a new political environment for healthcare reform. One that makes progressive reforms more possible than before. And absent some weird SCOTUS stuff, it won’t be rolled back.
It’s time to move to the next step–fixing the bill. And making the analogy with Romneycare is an excellent way to start. Because some of the problems with Romneycare are known and can be expected in the system of national exchanges. And the German-Swiss-Netherlands legislation gives us ideas of how to fix those issues because this legislation moves toward those models instead of toward the Canadian-Japanese model.
To do that, we need to know who in Congress is ready to continue this fight and not celebrate and drop it for a generation. And we need challengers to support for the rest of the members of Congress who can win and not be symbolic votes. And who will go the distance instead of using progressives as ATMs and volunteer temporary labor every two (or six) years. And we need those folks to have a better understanding of legislative strategy and hardball negotiating–and a staff that does not insulate them from reality (Kissell’s CoS apparently put in in a bubble about the facts and the unpopularity of Kissell’s opposition to the bill; Kissell’s explanation of why he voted No sounds unhinged.)
And we need to have a clear understanding with the candidates that we support that, like other sources of support, our support is contingent on their performance. And that while our support might be marginal, most campaigns are won at the margins. Progressives are now a swing vote.
Finally, we need broader support of progressive principles. You can’t pass a bill with representatives from current progressive strongholds alone. What this requires is stronger messaging about what progressive principles and policies actually are and demanding an end to the Cold War stigmatizing of liberals, progressives, and socialists. Movement conservatives successfully de-stigmatized “conservative” during the Reagan administration, shedding the dead weight of Hooverism by pushing Coolidge.
It’s time to pick ourselves up, start wearing something other than the clothes with the bus tire tracks on them, realize that politics is about persuasion of people outside DC, and get moving again.
If anyone ever questioned why I’ve been saying for months that this is the best site on the toobz, then you’re getting your answer now and in the next few weeks/months.
Keep on keepin’ on Jane, and thank you for a glimmer of hope in an otherwise dark, dark landscape these days.
LOL!
Donkey thought bubble “Damn, that carrot is RIGHT there! One more step and I’ll get it for sure!”
Citizen madma:
Did Grayson actulally say that Reid had promised a public option vote in a future reconcilliation this year? If that’s true, that shit’s gotta get out to the troops in the field ricky tick!
We could change the history on that. We now have the internet for an organizing tool which was not available in 2000 for Nader.
we should inform our representatives exactly why they do not represent us, and primary each and every one of them. A conservative nation where the majority of the populace has a progressive lean on at least pocket book issues is a total disconnect.
Citizen United has made it clear that the more money you have the more freedom of speech is guaranteed to you.
I would concentrate on economic justice to the exclusion of every thing else, as the sine qua non issue of our times.
Who would be a better GOP candidate for 2012?
Proving it is my synapses that are in shut down. I intended an earlier reply to go to you but misfired.
I fully acknowledge I made an error in interpretation. Sorry.
Grayson’s going on and on about how great this pos shit is? Bullshit. He can take his bomb and shove it.
At least Grayson has been honest and straightforward about his political opinions. Kucinich has been a weasely turncoat, IMO.
Any deal that was made to put the PO to a vote in the future is silly. We know from experience that critters will vote strongly for XXX bill so long as that vote will not matter. That is more Kabuki that Kucinich would be foolish to accept. Unless, of course, that is his game too.
“pubs try to impeach Clinton and all the democrats spend all their energy defending him, while he screwed the middle class and poor.”
The poverty rate fell from 15.1 percent in 1993 to 12.7 percent in 1998. That was the lowest poverty rate since 1979 and the largest five-year drop in poverty in nearly 30 years (1965-1970).
Under President Clinton and Vice President Gore, child poverty declined from 22.7 percent in 1993 to 18.9 percent in 1998 — the biggest five-year drop in nearly 30 years.
The poverty rate for African-American children fell from 46.1 percent in 1993 to 36.7 percent in 1998 — the lowest level in 20 years and the biggest five-year drop on record.
Yes. That is exactly what they are saying.
You are soooo wrong. It makes every difference what the contract was, how it was fulfilled, who the reports and numbers went to, and whether or not those reports and numbers were accurate. You are nothing but a propagandist if you believe otherwise: an image guy, an advertising artist. And push the envelope enough, a slanderer and a libelist.
It’s evident by now that this country needs a revolution. The form this revolution should take is still within our hands to decide, – but perhaps not for long.
It’s simple. It’s like chess. He who controls the center, controls the electorate.
Minwax makes wood beautiful.
How many visits to the White House does it take to get the message “this is what we need?” Wait, don’t answer that, because the point is moot. I’m sure, now that posting the visitor logs is politically prudent, K street has plenty of conference rooms to serve that purpose.
Minnesotan here … Senator Al is firmly behind this bill and carrying water for the WH and appears (I have made multiple phone calls to this office and multiple emails also) that he is refusing to engage in any debate or discussion. Keeps repeating the talking points over and over and over. The only ‘substance’ I witnessed was early on when he was mentioning the system that Switzerland has …
I thought there was a glimmer of hope with him but the appearance is that he is just another pragmatic seat holder … (and seat wanter)
and
fixed.
You need to back up your claims with supporting links so we’ll have something to address other than ad-hominum attacks fired at other commenters.
This was not a victory. It was only the opening battle in the fight for universal single payer.
I don’t know why Dennis decided to flip in the end, but I think it’s harsh to call him a turncoat or weasel.
IMO, Grayson made our efforts to get real reform harder by accepting far less than he should have from the start, defending far less as if it were good enough, and taking money from progressives as if he were a fighter for real health care reform when he hasn’t been. Now his putting real reform off to some future time in order to drain even more resources.
If anyone’s the weasel, it Grayson and his ilk (Weiner).
I’m a newcomer here, please be gentle. Could someone point me to a public option that I can read and is similar to the Swiss model?
I unsubscribed from Grayson’s newsletter and won’t be sending him any more money. For months I have been saying this is a Republican bill and the thing Democrats did to make sure it passed was stomp on women’s rights.
I was glad that Clinton did not go with the Romney bill, though I was furious at Nafta, though I was glad at least SCHIP was created. I was so torn at that time. I ended up leaving the DEM party after Clinton primarily because of NAFTA. It was such a hard decision. I did not get involved in two party politics again until the 2008 primary, and that was such a hard decision as well. This has all been such a mind fuck for the left, and I still hold OFA responsible for this. When Donna Brazille said “We must tear the party apart to rebuild it” I knew the progressives in the DEM part were fucked because Obama supporters interpreted that as saying, “Get the centrist and moderates out!”.
Citizen yellowsnapdragon:
The efforts to organize a progressive force to create a viable movement inside the Democratic Party that includes as many primaries as possible startin with Blue Dogs is where Citizen Hamsher is tryin ta take this thing. But to not explore the possibilities of leveraging the promises made by the leadership against them is a mistake…we gotta use every lie, trick and empty promise against these people, especially vulnerable folks like One Hung Harry. To call folks like Kucinich and Grayson names and isolate ourselves in a closet of our own delusions is the path to the dustbin.
So, the opening battle ends by handing millions of Americans over to the private insurers, who will use the profits to fight future battles against creating or expanding any public plan?
It set back real health care reform 10 years. Some people thought the bill forced insurance companies to give 80% of their profits to health care.
As a Minnesotan who has spent time with each of them, please don’t waste your time on Al Franken and it is such an insult to equate Al to Paul. The disingenuous of Al Franken is beyond belief when comparing him to Paul. He and Paul were both brilliant and short, but that is the only comparison I can come up with.
Al came to MN (from NY) and bought all of our elected officials (helped fund their campaigns, even city counsel) so they would owe him at our convention. He is best buds with the Clintons and they taught him well. Knowing we had a better more progressive candidate (Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer) everyone decided to they were obliged to give him their first vote and when he won on the first vote you could have heard a pin drop. Everyone realized they had just screwed themselves. He barely beat Coleman because he had 335,000 fewer votes then Obama. Many of those were pissed off progressives.
Better for whom?
“One time?”
Just about anybody, at least the progressives would not let them get away with privatizing our country w/o a fight. We may still have a chance to save social security and medicare. How many times has obama said that medicare is our biggest expense in this country? Say what, I thought it was defense spending.
excellent! best comment i’ve read in the past week. thanks
karen
Heh.
I am disappointed in these guys as well. Looking at the wreckage now is there anyone in the Dems whose behavior can be held up as brave or exemplary?
It would be helpful to be able to point to some critter and say you know good job…anyone?
That was the point that I was trying to make. Obama going up against Romney probably would have forced Obama to treat his base better. If he were going up against Palin, he could almost go on vacation rather than campaign and still win.
Jane,
I agree completely with your assessment that the D’s have created an emotive mess for themselves that will haunt them for years.
Can you imagine a scenario that carries more negative emotion for the average American citizen than being forced to buy products from vilified corporations under pain of enforcement, collection and fines by the Internal Revenue Service? What were these people thinking?
It reminds me of the old SNL skit where a radio talk show host is faced with a bank of phones that aren’t ringing. So he proposes the following topic:
“The use of tax free municipal bonds to pay for the forced busing of Chinese Communists into your neighborhoods for the purpose of killing your children’s puppies.”
the amendment he did about suing corporations for rape was good, I will give him that.
I agree. I have spent virtually no time with Al, just met one time for a few minutes different story with Paul tho. I also agree with Al’s associations with the Clintons, his methods, motives and desires seem to line up with theirs …
Citizen madma:
As a native Minnesotan who lives in the western Wisconsin “suburbs” I take issue with your characterization of Franken. First, he grew up in Minnesota, NOT New York, he has been straight up with everyone includin’ the pseudo-feminists and knuckledraggers in the DFL who almost got Coleman re-elected. His politics are much closer to Paul Wellstone’s than someone like, say, Ralph Nader and he is tryin’ ta learn how to maintain his integrity while being an effective elected representative, something Paul learned early and put to good use. Your spew is what I have been tryin’ ta caution against this mornin’…try and understand that cuttin’ yourself off from those who are closest to you in a fight borders on stupid.
:-))
got one more comparison for u madma … they’re both likable and funny guys.
But Paul grabbed you by your heart strings, you could believe everything the man said. You just knew it was from his heart. With Al, I know I have to filter what he says …
I follow what you’re saying, but forcing “Obama to treat his base better” would likely be an instance of wash, spin, dry, and repeat.
Not calling Grayson names. I prefer the honest types because I want to know what I’m getting–no surprises.
Disappointment and anger directed Kucinich is only natural considering his change in vote, The fact that he was actively whipping others to vote yes at the end is particularly galling. Maybe weasel was over the top; turncoat was not.
Bush I tried to fast track NAFTA so he could sign it before he left office. I think there were some backroom deals that the Republicans would “work with” Clinton for his health care proposal. The same nativity that Obama has shown too.
Are You Kidding Me? He absolutely supported this POS legislation … oops, I mean LAW
THEY ALL SUCK AT ALL TIMES.
How many times do we need to say this in fancy erudite and oh so serious ways? Go back read these threads, it’s hedge hog day each and every day. A fucking Kaffee Klatch society, – is this what firedog commenters have devolved to? Is this it? How many ways can we put into words the obvious, – wait wait don’t tell….
Au contraire monsieur “Cuttin yourself off from those who are closest to you in a fight” is very wise if they’re the ones punching you in the nose.
and … I’m one of those directly affected by the inadequacies contained in this bill.
I just want to scream when I hear TV News reporters spewing “But look at all the number of people that are now ‘Covered’ by health insurance”.
I’m a single parent. Three children in the home, no health care and can’t afford it but now I have to purchase health care insurance or face fines that will be imposed by the IRS. My goodness, Thanks Senator Franken and Senator Klobuchar. You have helped my family SOOoooo much …
And you think I’m going to forget about the financial position they have put my family into come this November and 2012 … and 2014 … and 2018 ???
The positive portions of this bill could have been accomplished on a Single Piece of Paper …
Those that support this bill and the Senators and Representatives that passed it into law can … well I can think of several things they should do to themselves … hopefully in the privacy of their homes …
DITTO !!!!!!!
It’s so interesting to me, in a way that makes me want to vomit, that someone like Franken can go from a “hero” for some then a tool of the Clintons. It is getting way old and just further divides the left and is actually getting pretty damn stupid that people cannot see how KOS et all has been behind this all along.
“That’ll be a fifty dollar co-pay, justalacky. Also, he’s going to require surgery. Your 2500 deductable check should be in the mail soon so we can schedule it, privided we don’t get a denial in the first round of a necessity analysis first. By the way, your premium check is due. Please don’t forget to pay. If you end up losing your insurance due to lack of payment, you’ll be fined.”
What are Franken’s proposals for job creation in MI? I really don’t know. Suppose I could go look it up but thought you might know. Is he trying to counter balance his reversal on healthcare thinking he might get some promises fulfilled in jobs? He is one that seems like he got nothing in return for his switch. At least Bernie did get the community health centers, something that looks half way progressive in the POS bill.
I phoned Representative Oberstars’ office this morning and wanted to tell them the financial position that Jim has placed me with his support of this bill.
His aid (in his North Branch office) stated “There is no IRS involvement”.
I asked ‘Are you that uninformed’, they responded with “No, are You” and then proceeded to laugh and mock. Them fucking assholes …
He (and the local media) are publicizing that the law will help reduce Minnesota’s deficit ….
Thanks Al … couldn’t have done it without you …
The situation you find yourself in is the most objectionable to me. How in this country can people who can’t afford insurance be forced to buy it? After you have insurance can you afford the medical care? It certainly won’t be free. Lots of problems with this law and I worry about so many people I know in your exact situation.
Just checked Franken’s senate website. If jobs is on his list of priorities, it’s down a aways. Everything on his website is about Health Care.
He really does a great job of Public Relations. He can be admired and respected for that … He’s a likable guy … have to give him that …
but then that old TV Ad keeps popping into my head – Where’s the Beef
Think triangulation.
I did so back in January. I just looked back, and it will take me some time to find my post, but it was Rayne who put up an accounting of Gruber’s work, and that was faulty. It included both work doing health care reform numbers and work at a foundation as P.I. to a project on aging. That was the beginning: It established that you were willing to push any numbers that made it look more scandalous, whether or not they were accurate. Next came the assertion, repeated by you, that he worked directly for Nancy Ann De Parle at the White House Office of Health Care Reform. He did not. He got the grant from the HHS Office of Health Care Reform run by Jeanne Lambrew. Then was the assertion that he was hired to provide the numbers the White House wanted. That’s the response (of mine) that I haven’t found yet. His numbers went to an Assistant Secretary of HHS, whose department is a department of Evaluators (that’s a profession, with journals and credentials and all the rest), whose job it is to collect and review all budgetary projections that are generated by all projects in HHS. In other words, the contract was to provide numbers for evaluators in HHS about various reform proposals, not to jury-rig numbers for the White House Office of Health Care Reform for whom he did not work.
Now these same articles you wrote come back again, but they aren’t open for comments. Do you stand by your work, Jane? You, and the people working with you, made some mistakes. You should acknowledge them instead of acting like I’m the big slanderer. After all, I never tried to embroil your professional career in a national scandal, like FDL did with Dr. Gruber. I can understand that you were playing politics, and that politics is hardball. But you didn’t have the story. You had a bunch of people who had very little understanding of these specific grants and contracts trolling the government sites looking for dirt.
and the D’s did it …. almost unbelievable for a person that’s been involved in the party since Karl Rolvaag was in the Gov’s mansion …
Great post, and this is perhaps your greatest line ever!
I wasn’t aware of the Heritage origins of the bill passed. Thanks to the speaker for pointing that out. She and her lot turn out to be bigger rat bastards than I ever imagined.
You’ve made a lot of claims without providing a single link. Clearly you have access to a computer. I just put up a link to the specific text of what I said, none of which you’ve done anything to refute. Instead, you make claims you can’t prove, and then expect someone to respond to them.
If you’ll provide links to specific things you’re talking about, and exact quotes you take issue with that have links substantiating your refutation, that is the minimal amount of work someone has to be willing to do before demanding that someone pay attention to their claims. If you’re not willing to do that, don’t expect anyone to take the time, because there’s nothing to respond to.
Dr. Gruber? Do not just blame one person for exposing this shill. But to its credit FDL certainly helped “deep six” his career. Gruber is another lying neo/con/lib. HE destroyed his own career and good riddance to him.
I mailed my donation to the Green Party of the United States (GPUS) yesterday as Obama was signing the bill, as I said I would.
I’m done with the Dems. Looking forward to being a card-carrying Green.
Send the Greens a donation. You’ll feel better. Donate your time and energy working with the Greens at the local level, instead of hustling for people who think you’re a “fucking retard”.
Dito that
This fix was in so long ago. Obama also spoke at the Hamilton Project. I think it was just before he announced he was running. Rubin and Andy Stern were also involved way back. They had both spoke in a planning session with Hamilton regarding health care. I have lost a bunch of my bookmarks, but on the Hamilton site it shows where Rubin and Stern were listed as speakers. FDL did write about some of it back in December. Though I don’t think the article mentions Stern.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/17984
Yes he did. I don’t know how you would go about listening to that segment of David’s show, but it would be worth the listen. Be sure to read between the lines. But he was very clear on Reid promising a vote on public option this year.
the cap on annual payments on federal education loans went from single digit to 10% of income – and that only begins in 2014 – and the number of years reduction from the current 25 year cap seems missing/lessened.
Seems we still expect our doctors to graduate with $250,000 in debt – a $2000 a month payment – and to then charge lower fees as they struggle to pay the loan off after 4 or more years of residency where they earned $45,000 a year, to $60,000 in the last year.
Pell grant increase is nice -but good luck on that making a difference on doctor production.
never too late … she’s about to do much more damage on several other fronts …
Here was the one from Hamilton Project health care “chat” way back for April 2007 where Stern and Rubin were together with the CEO of Aetna.
http://www.brookings.edu/events/2007/0410health-care.aspx
I hear what you saying, you need to direct you anger and energy in the right direction, toward OBAMA not the Democratic Party and the other Phony Dems in congress.
We progressives must comes to grips with the fact that we have been CON, by a very smooth CON man name OBAMA
Would you have voted for Obama if he had said the following?
Hi I am Obama I am for more War
Hi I am Obama I am against the Public Option, and I love individual mandates.
Hi I am Obama I am going to roll back and try to destroy Roe vs Wade
Hi I am Obama I am going to tax Union Health Care Plans
Hi I am Obama I hate the idea of Drug Importation
Medicinecat would have voted for this Person? No
Do you think Obama is a Democrat like JFK, FDR, etc? No
Obama is a Con Man, or trojan horse, the elites use to capture the white house to keep it out of a real progressive hands.
Obama is not the only phony Dem in congress talking like FDR, JFK, and governing like Ronald Reagan.
Yes we have all been CON
Obama is the one that needs to join a new Party, NOT YOU!
Actually, from what you are saying, if Grayson still has you fooled he is the weasely one. He agreed far sooner to support this bill then Kucinich did. You will be disappointed down the road if you give him any money.
I love your list, but please add one more. How about the fact that Obama has kept in place all of the Bush Federal Prosecutors. Never in the history of this country has the new president not fired the old prosecutors and replaced them with his. Obviously, Bushs’ are also Obama.
Better late than never.
Nonsense -
“department of Evaluators” – miss-named or just does not exist?
An actuarial review of the crap he tossed out was never done – this is evaluation?
The basic concept source for the Professor of Economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the Director of the Health Care Program at the National Bureau of Economic Research and current Research Associate, the co-editor of the Journal of Public Economics, and an Associate Editor of the Journal of Health Economics was never evaluated for weakness – the RAND study of 1982 justified only a small deductible for services, and those studies that followed were fatally flawed in my professional opinion – and I am a retired actuary and MIT grad.
Dr Gruber should have informed with basic information – that RAND did not justify HSA approach – that HSA approach only worked when regulation/price control was sky high as in Singapore – that otherwise it leads to non use of the health system and poorer outcomes than in single payer countries. He did not inform the Connector folks in Mass (my state) and he did not inform the Federal folks of these basic facts.
HSA’s are cut back in the HCR bill – and to the extent this is due to the “evaluators” rejecting his ideas – thanks.
Thank you for the summary, and the poll showing people know in some way what is going on. The sad thing is they know we have a somewhat close idea of what is going on – but they still don’t care.
I guess if you steal trillions of dollars and get away with it stealing a trillion over a few years, and putting lipstick on a pig…is child’s play.
I also like Lawrance O’Douche last night talking about thanking the staffers, and how Obama should have mentioned Nixon.
Isn’t Nixon on tape as someone explains the HMO’s/etc to him and he says essentially: This is “great” it a “money factory”.
oh I’m so slow … took a couple of hours before I realized you were mentioning our friend Rahm …
you would also be advised to compare their entire foreign policy …..
Jane, allow me to clarify. You may say you have an organization to have a primary in every race. That is laudable. You say it is difficult to recruit candidates, and indeed that is so.
My difficulty is that I am small and obscure, and apparently have wracked up an impressive list of failures since December 2009. You might make a specific reference to the diary in question, as I don’t know what you are talking about.
How about your failures? Such as failing to stop the healthcare bill from containing abortion-restricting language?
In any event, I believe your difficulty in recruiting is very different than mine. Mine is at least in part that a candidate should stand for a certain set of principles to be a Full Court Press candidate. Not particularly running to win. And that 2012 is a long ways off.
Your difficulty is that you are recruiting to win. You want candidates who are marginally better than the incumbents and have good reputation and can attract money, and can win. Such candidates would almost by definition be part of — or become part of — the regular Democratic Party machinery. You might call your slate “Future Blue Dogs of America.”
As for Pelosi, it’s nice that you would support there being a primary candidate against her. Allow me to sharpen my question to account for your dodge. Do you think that Nancy Pelosi should be defeated by this hypothetical challenger? Would you actively support a challenger from her left? Yes or no.
The paid ops are so classic as visitor on this site. No doubt the “smartest guys in the room”…
[Edited by Moderator: Please do not be insulting with ad hominem attacks.]
This horrifying Insurance Monopoly bill is the anthesis of what “progressives” (if any still exist) have been fighting for. The fact that no one in the Congressional Progressive Caucus demanded that the bar be set higher than this is evidence that there is no “progressive caucus” anywhere to be found in Congress.
Obama, by choice, is turning the Democratic Party into an even more transparently Corporatist Party than it ever was during the Clinton years.
At least Clinton had the guts to change the U.S. Tax code in a fundamental way in order to reverse Reaganomics (trickle-down supply-side theory), and bring down the debt for 7 straight years (leading to an Economic boom). At least Clinton had the guts to stand up to the GOP on the bluff to shutdown the Government (leading to his re-election).
Obama would never do either one of these things. He is an opponent of any true reform, and there are no “progressive” principles that he won’t happily pre-emptively trade away, before any debate even begins. He has given the Insurance Companies even a tighter Monopoly over Healthcare. He wants the Federal Reserve Monopoly to have even more power.
President’s Obama misuse of the role of government continues to go beyond the breeches of Richard Nixon, and is equally as bad as George W. Bush/Dick Cheney.
We’ve already seen this abuse before with the indefinite detaining of people with no legal process, Military Tribunals, the denial of Habaeus Corpus, the perpetuation of horrific CIA Secret Renditions, escalating Predator Drone reckless Bombings of civilians throughout Afghanistan and Pakistan, sheltering and providing legal protections for Human Torturers, the perpetuation of the Orwellian “U.S. Patriot Act”, new undeclared Paramilitary and Military provocations and hostilities in Iran and against Venezuela (via Columbia), and on and on and on.
If any Foreign leader on the planet ever did these things, the U.S. Media and our Government would universally regard him as a dangerous Tyrant on the World stage, and a War Criminal.
But Obama has obliterated the Constitution and the role of government now in an entirely new way. He has made it unlawful for an American citizen to exist without writing overpriced checks to a predatory Corporation, for an unguaranteed product.
Not only has he used the role of government to subsidize and advance the interests of a Corporate Monopoly, using the hard-earned money of American citizens (itself a robbery of the public), but he has also tasked the I.R.S. to deprive them of their own private money and assets, if they do not become the slaves of these predatory Insurance Monopolies.
Now, this is not free market capitalism.
It is not socialism (as “teabaggers” might incorrectly claim).
It is not communism or a “Soviet health care” system.
It is pure Fascism/Corporatism.
It is a 100% misuse of Government, and Violation of the Oath of Office: to protect and defend the Constitution.
For Obama to direct American Citizens to be captives of a Coporate Monopoly, and then criminalize them through the I.R.S., makes Richard Nixon look like a saint in comparison.
This is like mandating that people must all now do their Banking with Bernie Madoff, or face the collection of their assets by the I.R.S.
The rights and freedom of poor American citizens have been denied once again, and the costs and burdens fall squarely on their backs. Since the rules don’t kick in for a few years, the real anger and backlash won’t occur until Obama is already comfortably out of office, on the sands of Hawaii (or making millions in Corporate speaking fees).
This is not only not the progressive answer, but Obama’s Tyrannical abuse of the proper role of government is tantamount to Treason.
Is there a location on this site that discusses and debates future courses of action, and that only? I’m specifically looking for discussions that exclude pure venting. Venting is fine, but not really constructive.
Fair enough. As soon as I have time to, I will. Shall I put them on this comment list or elsewhere, or do you want me to make a post?
Specific complaints:
1) Amount of money Gruber supposedly was paid by the “White House” to “shill” for them.
2) Allegation that he worked for Nancy Ann De Parle.
3) Allegation that he didn’t properly disclose in NEJM according to their disclosure rules.
4) Any and all insinuations that his numbers were in any way purposely altered to fit a political conclusion.
As for his political views, or whether or not you agree with his assessment of “Cadillac plans”, I have no problem with what you said on them.
Rayne originally put up his numbers in Rayne’s own format. Many of the questions asked are alright, except where they insinuate, since if you don’t know why, for instance, a person might have two DUNS numbers, you don’t know much about government funding. Some other questions have complicated answers, but the proper approach would have been to call a grant administrator and get an explanation to some. I know that you cited numbers in the $780,000 range and above, I believe there was someone in between the two, I haven’t the time to ferret that out right now.
Here is a link to the creation of an Office of Health Care Reform in HHS, headed by Dr. Lambrew.
The allegation that Dr. Gruber didn’t disclose properly at NEJM was by David Dayen. Except that it’s incorrect. On articles like the one that Dr. Gruber published there, the disclosure is for all funding connected to work reported, and for all connections to for-profit industry whatsoever.
Here’s the link to the HHH/ASPE (Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation). That’s the place where Dr. Gruber’s numbers went. It is, as I said, an evaluation department for all such plans, projections, and budgetary projections, and it advises the Secretary of HHS, not the head of the White House Office of Health Care Reform. Do you understand? One is Kathleen Sibelius, the other is Nancy Ann De Parle.
Here is the HHS/ASPE mission statement.
That’s at least enough for you to start on. I’ll try to get back when I have more time. But, like you say, you obviously have access to a computer…
The painful thing is that even though everything you say is crystal clear, so many people just cannot see it. Why is that? Most Democrat/left pundits seem to believe that this was a GOP defeat. That the kleptocorp in general is somehow unhappy with this legislation. They don’t see the kabuki, the three card monte, the bait and switch. It’s just so frustrating. Folks, GOP resistance to this bill was pure theater, illusion, prestidigitation. Christ, wake up.
Me too. I am just about to despair. Great idea to have a war room kind of place.
Dr. Gruber or Dr. Sunstein or Dr. Zelikow or Dr. Yoo or Dr. Strangelove. These academic posers steal our freedom, steal our universal health care, steal everything from us. Who owns this country? The top 5%. Does Gruber report that. These doctors of disaster deserve complete contempt. And they have it.
What are they going to steal next? Social Security and Medicare.
That is also my memory on the deals on Hillarycare – Bill killed single payer before even giving the task force to Hillary because he was promised by my lobbists (I was a tax department head and tax and health lobbyists played together) that we would not attack if single payer was off the table (off course, while I did not have concurrent knowledge of the game plan – I was tax and not health – the industry immediately post promise started the planning the anti-anything commercials. I worked for a life company – and the casualty companies ran the show and obviously had different “business ethics” than those on the life side).
Funny how the 94 Senate filibuster occurred despite the deals – guess the GOP ethics are a match for the casualty company ethics.
Yes, I think you are right—that might be the next target. But, I fear there isn’t much left in either to steal. Like the pyramids—they have already been plundered.
I think it you who may be missing the victory. The message is the beginning. It is going to take a long time of remessaging and revisioning the future for the country. Reagan has been so successful that most people even many Democrats take right wing economics and psychology of selfishness as conventional wisdom.
not sure if you realize it or not, that’s just about identical to what some of the citizens over at the tea party are saying …
Once again – I don’t care about motivation
The work was crap – he bought into, without analysis, studies that did not prove his conclusions, and then fitted those conclusions into models that of course, being based on poor analysis, gave bad answers.
If Gruber is hurting – and I do not see that as I believe he is still giving advice to the Mass Connector people – he would be hurting because his work product was flawed.
It tells us that worrying about which rich powerful asshole is running things does not matter – in the end they are working for the same thing (not sure what it is, but that is what they are doing).
And firing Rahm or giving him a blowjob does not matter, both of us will still be digging ditches (working) tomorrow.
It’s a pity Dr. Gruber will never “fall” so far from grace that he will lose his ticket to health insurance through MIT and have to balance a subsidy check and limited income with the expenses of the necessities of life and, thanks to him, the inflated extortion fees to the insurance and pharmaceutical cartels he mysteriously “calculated” as justified. His economics degree might actually give him a leg up on the ability to process the table full of bills, claim denials, and other insurance red-tape that would surely and most effectively transfer any wealth he might have managed to accumulate to the insurance/pharmaceutical/financial sector.
Good for you for speaking up about your, I would assume, past career. Do you have a blog? Have you ever written up your experience and “remembrance” of this? Progressives can no longer afford (we are out of money) to let the history of all of this be rewritten.
I actually think they are saying “We aint fixing shit, we like it this way and the house can go F themselves”.
Well said hotdog. I appreciate ondelette’s right to post what he sees as an injustice but why do I have a suspicious feeling that he/she has an agenda–just me—whatdoiknow?
The new law is not an afformation that health care is a human right. No way, no how.
You just get fined if you are so stupid as to be poor.
Democrats have produced a great “victory” passing republican legislation against token republican opposition and the message is what? That there is only one party in Washington, the Kleptocrats. They do put on a great show though.
Hey, protecting the sterling image of the great institutions is an essential part of getting research grants. When it looks like the going rate for an excel spreadsheet is somewhere around 400k, a little huff-puffery is in order.
The Democratic Party is finished, Norske, you should think about that. Sorry, but it’s gone.
And that makes it somehow wrong or stupid or dangerous to point out the truth because everybody knows that tea baggers are both brain dead and dangerous right? Everybody knows that because they are instructed to know that. Just as they were instructed to vote for a hollow shell of a big fat zero because they knew he was “the One”
Au contraire, it’s quite alive and well and doing wonders for its owners.
I think people wanted to believe in Obama, and they are just projecting whatever they want to on this bill, and ignoring his “Bush 3rd-term” Foreign Policy tyranny, his D.O.J. abuses, etc., because they find his personality charismatic and seductive.
But, in a way, the “teabaggers” may be correct in saying that Obama is the “antichrist”. He is the antichrist for progressive politics in this Country, and he is just leading the Democratic Party rightward and Corporate-ward to the point where they have become one in the same on a policy level with the GOP — except on fringe issues like abortion.
RahmObamaMonopolyCare = RomneyMonopolyCare
Obama is the advocate and perpetuator of: Indefinite Detentions, Secret Renditions, mass-murder and theft of Oil masquarading as “National Security”, Human Torture, and unnecessary, irresponsible, chest-thumping Warmongering against peaceful countries like Iran and Venezuela.
If we are to have any type of “opposition Party” in this Country, Obama needs to be Primaried. He cast his lot with Goldman Sachs, The Federal Reserve swindlers, Wall Street, BigPharma, The Insurance Monopoly, and the War-CIA-Murder-Inc.-Establishment.
The only answer that I see is: Feingold/Kucinich 2012
The Soul of the Democratic Party is at stake.
That’s stupid, I watched the whole thing realtime, Gruber was asked if he had any financial relationships/conflicts of interest by the Washington Post for his editorial/propaganda and he said ‘No’, in their words that’s what happened. Then it comes out that he was paid a lot by the government to consult on their HCR atrocity. He’s a fucking paid shill, and you want to whine at jane about whatever the hell you’re whining about?
I remember you from back then actually, you were minimizing these FACTS then too. How much they pay you, or are you still hoping?
I’ll admit TalkStick, I’m slow, very, very slow …
So what was the victory in this Trillion dollar POS? (and please remember, I’m very slow. If possible, explain it so a fifth grader can understand …) thanks
“Feingold/Kucinich 2012″
Really? Do tell…
Nah, the soul is gone. Feingold? Thanks for nothing. Kuchinich? Yeah, your wife is hot, but you folded and you should have stood for us.
That is really cool – wasn’t there some sort of bubble going on back then… can’t quite put my finger on it.
where’s the anger coming from?
I never made a judgement, nor did I characterize or demonize. Not even a simple comment.
Simply stated you agreed with people who more than likely are on the opposite pendulum of the political line ….
Take a breath. Life is good
Touche. It’s be nice if there were any real dems left. Not a one aside from wishful thinking.
That other actual brave and upstanding people will deliver.
Slavery was also the foundation for an economy that worked for some people, and for more later, and heck after a few hundred years we even got rid of slavery.
Who were the Speaker and Majority leader then?
I don’t think its harsh to call DK a turncoat.
I stood up and applauded him for his stance on one day, thought I at least had someone I could cast a vote for in 2012… to seeing him sell it all out (“to help the Obama presidency”).
Look it up yourself (tip – use Google), that is a historical point. I am only using it as an analogy (my point being that its a shitty foundation and we could have & must do better).
… and that I do not think some great point in the future is why they did/do what they done/did.
Whatever you call it, he folded when it mattered most. I like the guy, but that’s a punkass in my book.
Sorry, I hope you didn’t take my response in the wrong way. No anger and not trying to jump down your throat. I respect your posts quite a bit actually. My reaction comes because I really believe that people who self identify as progressives should be leading the way when it comes to building consensus and being empathetic to, not dismissive of everyones reality especially those who appear to be very far from them on the political line. Again, I apologize for over reacting. Life is good. Peace :-)
I find this thread to be quite entertaining.
Yet, no one has ventured forth to comment on the Congressional Black Caucus and the Hispanic Congressional Caucus in their loud support for Health Insurance Industry Reform legislation.
And from my point of view here in the Sonoran Desert, “progressive” proponents have been correct in labeling this HCR as DoleCare. Yet, Obamacare seems to have made it into our lexicon for poliltical palaver and which I believe is an intentioal misdirection and a deflection played on today’s reality. What we have is Party politics writ large and not of a philosophy/ideology for self-governance.
This legislation was a ‘support system’ that was required to keep the incumbents in office, and nothing more. And it’s for this reason that the Chicano community was willing to accept HCR despite being the best of the the second rate or third rate being available, and given that either one will help resolve a major part of our “unmet need”.
Now, there are many “progressive” in both of these Caucus’ and yet they too voted affirmatively, on the premise that they were reflecting the wishes and desires of their respective constituencies. And that reinforces national party politics. This HCR was not or was never expected to be about philosophy or ideology, from our perspective. It’s about the ‘brute force’ of power, especially when our daily reality of today is local law enforcement agencies and their amoral behavior for ‘racial profiling’ us, the Brown People. Thus, I am this ‘subject’ so I find it hard to get “excited” when the progressive discourse started with “single payer” and which was a insolent compromise from the much more effective “open access” to the VA, Medicare and Indian Health Services.
Here in the Desert, we advocated for “open acess” to the VA, Medicare, and Indian Health Services. All this could have been accomplished via an amendment to a Defense Authorization Bill or through an amorphous bill relative to another reconciliation process. Not to be of course.
And finally, the Inscrutable and Prescient Norkse offers the wonderful admonition for knowing the difference between friends and allies versus the ever-present “mercs”.
Jaango
From my post this thread #82
Also see my Diary
Good post. And kids can’t get turned away… unless they don’t have enough money.
Next up school privatization, since that works so well in places like Hati.
Call back, replay the scene – record it – and send it to new and post it. If recording is not allowed then transcribe it.
Nothing bites them worse than being shown to be the rich powerful jerks everyone expects them to be.
Hey Cass. Through the NY Times comment section, I just got exposed to the Bull Moose Movement. Have you seen them and what do you think? Huff po has a feature out about them.
They definitely get what I believe is the main point: Corporatism is at the heart of our problems as a nation.
I think they would be a strong component of the Alliance, but I confess I have not examined their entire platform.
Oh my. /facepalm
I appreciate your efforts Jeff, and I’m pretty sure one of the people working with you contacted me directly via phone to see about planning, improving, and building a more cohesive technical infrastructure for your project.
That said, comic book characters seem like they might make for a terrible source of rebuttals.
No they can, if the insurance company claims ‘fraud’. Which they already do to deny care, and which is still allowed in the bill.
No mercy.
Why don’t you file a lawsuit or something?
Reagan was so successful, he’s got Obama out there praising him and continuing to push his message and his policies.
He praises Jaime Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein as “savvy businessmen”.
He crafts and then jams through policy that rewards the health insurers and bankers that were at the core of the problems we’ve had in those sectors (and that Pelosi seems happy to have characterized as a Republican product of the Hoover Institution).
Show me the victory. Please. Show me.
You’re kidding me right? You’re making a joke?
You’re baiting me maybe?
Dream all you want, Rights are not established by statute, edict or decree or even by the present occupant of the WH. But if you really want to delude yourself … (oops maybe the Bill of Rights was amended when I wasn’t looking – if that’s the case, sorry)
The new LAW is an affirmation that the IRS can bend me over. The new LAW is affirmation that I can’t afford Health Care for my children – [edited]. What an [edited]. The new LAW is affirmation that the IRS will collect money from those under the poverty line and hand it over to the insurance pukes. You know, I’m holding myself back. I really want to tell you to go [edited]. You are a [edited].
affirmation my ass
[Mod Note: no namecalling or insults please]
I used to associate with people who quoted Chairman Mao. I wanted to demonstrate that I had more mainstream sensibilities.
:>)
As I said on another blog that had the name “Democratic” in it, the Democratic party has been co-opted from the inside. It really doesn’t exist anymore.
After the nightmare of the Bush years-9/11, needless wars, Katrina, propaganda, rigged elections-I don’t really cotton to false illusions. I don’t get how you can have party or one leader loyalty after the Bush years. Didn’t anyone LEARN anything in those years? Weren’t they bad enough? Do we have to have people that do the same thing that pretend to represent us do it to us now? Just because you call it health care reform doesn’t make it so. Just because you call yourself a Democrat doesn’t make you one.
But I guess people are so weary and beaten down, they take their little crumbs. I am still amazed that something like the pre-existing condition benefit that is much touted was never analyzed to the COST. THE COST was really the point of reform. Not changing the rules. If you can’t afford the health care reform, you get no health care. It’s nice the rules are better-but rules are not the cost.
Still it’s the faith and prayer bill. Most of the left give me the answer-it can be made better, it’s a start, it’s better than nothing. All of those depend on faith in the president, the congress, and insurance companies. Why in God’s name would you ANY faith ever again in any of them? I learned something during the Bush years-apparently the masses and certainly the left learned zero.
Faith/belief *change we can believe in* is for fools.
And if there is a “bubble” created by this POS bill for insurance stocks (28% rise already), I’m sure you would be blowing bubbles in the streets. Hope you got in on it.
Kaiser Health News has written an article titled “Doctors, Hospitals, Insurers, Pharma Come Out Ahead With Health Bill”. As if many commenting here weren’t already aware of that.
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2010/March/22/winners-losers-health-reform.aspx
heh heh heh
> “Feingold/Kucinich 2012″
> Really? Do tell…
Clearly a far better choice than sticking with RahmObamaGates.
Feingold is against the Wars, and against the Patriot Act.
And we all know where Kucinich’s heart is on all of these issues.
Even Al Gore would have made a much, much better President than Obama
So yes if those guys had real power…then the conversation would be a whole lot different.
Errrr. Do you know what the word “affirmation” means?
If you get a kick out of promoting the Republican agenda by chanting their Elections 2010 talking points, be my guest.
> “Nah, the soul is gone. Feingold? Thanks for nothing. Kuchinich? Yeah, your wife is hot, but you folded”
Kucinich folded because he had no real power. Obama and Pelosi were going to probably take away his subchairmanship position (of course it’s okay with them for Joe Lieberman to Chair a major Senate committee). And their crooked little warrentless wiretapping program probably enables them to blackmail any member of Congress that they want to go after .. by planting innuendo and snippets of private conversations in the Corporate Media, and in the papers .
You understand, of course, that Kucinich and Feingold would bring an end to the Patriot Act, and an end to the Wars. The whole National Dialog would be different with people like them having the bullypulpit and real power at their disposal.
It is Obama, and the Democratic Leadership watchdogs (Rahm Emanuel, Nancy Pelosi, Reid, Baucus, etc) that are censoring the progressive voices — not the other way around.
Is there a troll filter? Wish it would kick in.
See my #236
Good Luck with persuading anyone in the D’s against a sitting President.
I was very, very young and somewhat idyllic and foolish in 1980 when I took to the stage at the endorsing convention and suggested that maybe we could consider someone other than Jimmy Carter and our favorite son for endorsement to their second term. (inflation and interest rates had just hit 20% and we had helicopters flying into/crashing with airplanes in the desert while trying to rescue Iranian hostages …) I didn’t state non-support for them, simply questioned their elect-ability.
You can probably imagine the response from those in the auditorium in Minnesota … (Yea, I was soundly booed off stage) Do you remember the results of that election? yep, Jimmy took six states – oops.
So, good luck attempting to endorse anyone else … I believe the best you can do is knee-cap his goals, elect Reps and Senators who will carry the Flag and prevent him from doing additional harm
not sure what or who you are but my posts speak about my OWN experiences.
Who are YOU representing?
I think the current House now has the numbers and the leadership to do that and can certainly do more if we send them more real Democrats..
For the record, and for folks who may be new here – we strongly discourage namecalling and insults. Please stick to a discussion of the issues – thanks.
What you see is what you get. I am not a politician or a beltway process geek. But I do have some expertise in media and messaging. I am an aficionado of George Lakhoff.
I think the genuine liberals here who are focusing on the details., most of which will be profoundly modified before being applied, and process and posting such venom are doing so because they are such wonks. It is hard to let go and step back to appreciate the whole picture as I think the people will perceive it. I hope to do my part in that being a positive view, not the one the Republicans intend to run on..
OK, I agree with sending more real Dem’s, but also believe that means replacing a considerable number of those in the sheeps clothing …
Oh, and Biden’s “slip” (This is a big fucking deal) was intentional – duh. Hope they didn’t pay some brainiac to come up with that one.
> “not sure if you realize it or not, that’s just about identical to what some of the citizens over at the tea party are saying …”
Yeah, ironic huh?
Except that the “teabaggers” are saying it based upon the phony, untrue, and silly narrative that Obama is a Socialist/Communist.
Obama is easily shown to be a Corporatist/Monopolist, and his policies are decidely Corporatist/Monopolist. But the “teabaggers” are correct that he is misusing and abusing the proper role of Government. Since when does the U.S. Constitution give either the President (or the Congress) the right make U.S. Citizens buy a Corporate product or treat them as criminals?
Since when does the 16th amendmant (taxation on income), give the Government the right to Tax Americans for failing to write expensive checks to empower a Corporate Monopoly?
Why is any of this Constitutional?
Answer: It isn’t. It’s just more Orwellian madness.
I meant it as snark. Thanks for making the point explicit.
On that we agree. I live in Blue Dog land and have been preaching for years of their danger to the aims of the party nationally. In fact I resigned some leadership positions rather than support conservatives running as Democrats.
I don’t want to get in on it, I want to take a shower to wash it off.
Thanks, but I think the MSM has it covered. “Historic” health care a “right” for all… etc. I heard it all day. A “foundation”.
Of course the details can come later – oh, wait there is a shiny object over there – frig the details.
Where you quote yourself previously on down a wormhole of self-reference. I read it before, that’s how I got this far down the thread.
You state that Obama eventually came around to mouthing rhetoric that health care is a right when forced by Pelosi. That’s a nice assertion and I’d almost buy the idea of changing the rhetoric as a precursor to changing the policy…but wait hold everything… that was the point of my comment.
Obama talks a lot and says some nice things. He also has given the shout outs that I listed…and then some. He’s not changing the terms of debate or discussion in DC, he’s delivering them with better skills.
Disheartened, disillusioned, disenchanted, and most importantly for the D party, this D is disinclined to vote for them this November.
Why would you agree to that? We have the real Dems in the Congress and the White House right now. And I say that as someone who used to work at the DLC.
Those are “real Dems”. It’s unfortunate, but it is also true.
Perhaps you mean real liberals or real progressives?
> Good Luck with persuading anyone in the D’s against a sitting President.
> … I believe the best you can do is knee-cap his goals,
Well I do think it is in all our best interest to knee-cap the goals of RahmObamaGatesGeithner.
They are not on our side here. Obama hates progressive ideas and works behind the scenes with Rahm Emanuel to squash any momentum behind them at each and every turn.
It is the fashionable thing to blame Jimmy Carter’s defeat on Ted Kennedy, but it really was the Corporate Media that worked so hard to destroy Carter — even dedicating a whole new TV Show (“Nightline”) setup just to mock Jimmy Carter every day for a relatively minor Foreign Policy event by either the standards of the 1960s/1970s/1980s or today’s standards. The truth is that the Shah of Iran was illegally and criminally installed into power by the CIA during the Eisenhower years — but the U.S. Media always finds a scapegoat, to fool the public with, for the CIA’s barbaric tyranny and their own failures.
So, yes we need to Primary Obama.
Obama cannot possibly run on the theme of “change” this time around.
He did not change Bush’s Wars/Foreign Occupations
He did not change oversight over the Federal Reserve and Wall Street
He did not change the Health Insurance cost structure one damn bit
He sanctioned and legitimized Bush’s evil DOJ and Human Rights policies.
So it would be very, very easy to mount a narrative to challenge Obama, and expose him as a political fraud.
Feingold/Kuicnich 2012 baby!
Oh yes – I mentioned earlier a suggestion of comparing the US foreign policy. This administration vs the last. There has been some change, it appears to be more engagement, less dramatic rhetoric but in terms of military might being used to enforce policy, I don’t see much change.
I’m not sure if labels such as Corporatist/Monopolist adequately describe this guy, he seems to really like the stage along with having power and control. But in the area of Corporatist/Monopolist, he’s similar to Bill C in that regard. Under Bill, the Oil companies were allowed to combine into their present day appearance. This was not only in the exploration and pumping Corporations but also in the Pipeline and delivery companies also. Allowing the Pipelines to consolidate had a significant impact on prices and continues to this day. We may see those same types of consolidation in the Media market under the O.
If someone else has observed a major shift or change in direction of our Foreign Policy, please point it out …
I referenced my post and diary because I can’t say it any better. It is my opinion. I hope I am right in predicting the message will take hold.
As I have said other places and I believe we have to accept as part of the landscape,. Obama is a conservative. The best aim we can have is to get him to talk and act on some of our points.
If another Democrat as charismatic as Obama and as liberal as Teddy Kennedy primaries Obama I will vote for him or her.
Thanks, Yes that is what I meant (you are good at reading thoughts ….) Many times I use the terms and labels interchangeably (old time habit that I need to change).
I do agree with that, using him as a Public Spokesperson. If he will be the face of the message, he is very good at that. But when push comes to shove, I believe he knows where his bread is buttered.
We need to serve him up a lot of Liberal Butter. :-) His buddies in the GOP aren’t doing much for his image.
I don’t know enough about Feingold but am so incredibly opposed to the Patriot Act … (and thought very highly of Kuicnich until last week, now I’m watching and listening …)
:-) Them darn little details … the actual things that affect my children and grandchildren … darn them
Quick summary:
Feingold:
. Voted against the Patriot Act
. Voted against the Iraq Resolution
. Wants to end Afghanistan war
. Supports public options on Health Care
. Supports auditing of the Federal Reserve
. Good history on Campaign Finance reform and crack downs on corruption
Kucinich:
. The ulitmate populist/progressive
. Co-author of Medicare-For-ALL
. Had the courage to submit Impeachment articles on Dick Cheney and George Bush
. Supports not just auditing the Federal Reserve Monopoly, but full Monetary Reform
. Anti-War, and Kennedy-esque in his pursuit of policies of peace
. Anti-Corporate corruption
These guys would be 180-degrees different than Obama if they ever got political power in their hands.
Come people Wake-up!!
Feingold/Kucinich 2011-2012 baby!
To put it bluntly, the willingness of progressives to continue to give the status quo another chance will ultimately be its undoing. At what point do we say, “Enough is enough?” Listen to yourselves, Kucinich/Feingold 2012? Are you serious? These sonsofbitches just sold our souls to the healthcare industry and you’re already willing to get behind them as candidates? Are you mad?
People in this thread mentioned Hillary, are you insane? Enough with the pseudo-royalty. Can we not have a relative of Bush or Clinton in the friggin White House for a couple of decades before going back to the same well?
Progressives willingness to turn the other cheek and willing to press on and work with such slimy self interested egomanics is insane. Don’t be surprised when they turn on you. How many times does it have to happen before we realize that this is not going to work anymore? Enough is enough.
I despise the teabaggers, but as moronic as they are, their downfall will come from one of them doing something insanely stupid, but I give them credit for continuing to try to fight. Odds are they will succeed in getting more of their platform through Congress than we will before that time comes. We are always thrown under the bus and end up begging for scraps.
It is time to abandon our current approach to pushing our agenda. I’m not sure where to go, but this healthcare disaster that is being hailed as the best thing since sliced bread is a fallacy. I refuse to continue to support this system.
I understand your point-of-view. I wish I felt it were true.
I just don’t believe that Obama projects a consistent message that can resonate. The conflicts between what he says and what he does are very jarring. And you end up with the situation we have now: strong pressure to shut up and salute.
Cult of Personality is empty. Cult of Policy is something different and could lead to sustainable change. I’m skeptical that the path to the second leads through the first. Especially when the process of building the first involves buying off the players creating the problems you’ve set out to address.
Those bought off only become more wealthy and powerful and see (truthfully) that their success relies on further embedding themselves in the fabric of government. Obama failed to even try to shift private insurers slightly out of the center of the health care industry. He’s made them even more central. That’s not going to be undone…ever.
For that, Obama is to blame. He didn’t even try. That doesn’t build a message juggernaut.
Snark, right?
NOTHING in this bill, or in what the Democrats did, was an affirmation that health care is a human right.
Because nothing in this bill, or in what the Democrats did, has anything whatsoever to do with health care.
You may feel they affirmed a right to health INSURANCE, but I wouldn’t even go there because to affirm something is a right, you must first agree it doesn’t need to be purchased, because rights aren’t bought and sold. They’re RIGHTS. This bill doesn’t do anything of the sort.
Sorry, sounds like another Party cheerleader to me.
See ya in November.
> “At what point do we say, “Enough is enough?” Listen to yourselves, Kucinich/Feingold 2012? Are you serious? These sonsofbitches just sold our souls to the healthcare industry and you’re already willing to get behind them as candidates? Are you mad?”
Nonsense. You’re blaming the wrong people here.
Obama and Rahm Emanuel killed the ideas that had been building up for Medicare Expansion, Public Option, ERISA Reform, Reimportant of Generic Drugs, etc. Obama wanted those things to not be in the bill, right from the beginning. And then when people like Kucinich worked hard to get them included, Obama pulled the rug out from under them and had them stripped out (despite the fact that only 50 Senate votes were required and not 60).
So don’t blame the good guys. Blame Obama.
Kucinich has no political power today to fight against the Democratic Leadership by himself. They’ll throw him out on the curb — and then what will be accomplished? Answer: Nothing.
But if the grassroots was smart, they would all totally reject Obama, and throw all their energies behind the people (Feingold/Kucinich) who –if they did ever get political power — would totally change the National Dialog, and work aggresively toward progressive goals, and a progressive narrative.
If Kucinich were President, do you really think he would have Robert Gates as his War Secretary? Of course not.
It would be a new future….folks
Actually, he has this thing called a vote. If a congressional vote means nothing, then the American people have no power, and we should figure out where to go from there.
Thanks – Much Agreement There …
In discussing monetary reform I may take a turn that appears to be to the right tho … The Federal Reserve is a cluster #$*@ and think it should be abolished (sorry, I now sound like Mr Paul). But I’m not a finance guy so I don’t know what the alternatives are.
That’s just the point. He wasn’t paid to editorialize, and he wasn’t paid to create numbers that were false. He wasn’t paid as much as people here said he was for running the numbers through his micro health care expense simulation models. He wasn’t advising the White House, he was supplying numbers to the planning and evaluation part of the HHS responsible for compiling and disseminating such numbers about any HHS plan. You, in particular, in your rebuttal to me, have said absolutely nothing in the way of rebutting any arguments, just “he’s a fucking shill” and such. And this is indicative of the problem I’m talking about:
That’s a totally irresponsible accusation, you have nothing, absolutely nothing to run it on except that I disagreed with you. There isn’t a how much they’re paying me, they aren’t paying me. You have no grounds, other than the typical blogosphere (but also quite McCarthyite at its base) slur of accusing me of being paid because I’m complaining. And that about sums up the quality of the entire argument — not just about me, but about Jonathan Gruber, too. You disagree with him, he’s got government funding, ergo he’s corrupt. Such bullshit.
No Snark.
The political importance is that whether you agree or not passage does uphold the notion that all shall have access to care of their pain and suffering and it is a community responsibility to take measures to see to that. And that is how as of today about half polled Americans see it.
In fact the principle of insurance is shared risk, not equal pay out.
Yes I do support the House Democrats who pushed this thing through and look damned good doing it.
If you think I am a party hack you have not read much of what I have written.
I hate to sound cynical or heaven forbid disrespectful. We can’t sit around bitching and waiting for an incorruptible liberal to come along to lead us. But our culture is a cult of personality. Not many folks are as insightful as you are.
But that is the playground we have to live in. an electorate bemused by personality and celebrity spokesmen for our poltics who are bemused with self admiration and power. In a democracy the people have to come up with ways to make it profitable for elected leaders to promote and act in the interests of the people.
So, I’ve searched old comment threads, and frankly, I’m not sure what your real beef is.
Until you can produce those links, I’d suggest we not dig an even deeper hole.
So now you’re arguing the bill guarantees ACCESS to care??
OK, alright, I’ll give you that.
To be fair, I never questioned whether or not anyone before didn’t already have a right to ACCESS to care. I always thought that if you showed up, they would see you/treat you. But if you want to insist that this bill affirmed we all have a right to ACCESS to care, then I’ll agree.
That. and enough dollars to cover the co-pays/deductibles will actually get you care.
As for how good the Democrats looked in pushing this crap through, well, we’re all going to see how good they looked in just a few months.
Time ran out on #286
In a democracy we have to make it profitable emotionally and or otherwise for our celebrity leaders and spokesmen to speak our vision and to act for our best interests.
I am not arguing that the bill does anything. I am arguing that the passage presents a powerful message.
Then you and I will have to agree to disagree on whether that end result is worth voting in bigger D majorities than we’ve had in two generations, over a year of contentious hearing, town halls, debates, votes, and the party using up all of its energies and capital.
To get us a message.
If we’re never going to expect much from our elected representatives, then we ought not bitch when we don’t get much.
Me, I expect more.
Special note
Thanks to you all who have taken my notions seriously enough to reflect and show respect and courtesy. I know I am presenting a perspective that really is counterintuitive to the blogging environment.
Sincere Thanks.
And some of us appreciate your struggle.
Hang in there, the Lake is really a good place to ask these questions…even if we don’t always get the answers we’d like to hear.
Boner! He wishes.
“Kucinich has no political power today to fight against the Democratic Leadership by himself. They’ll throw him out on the curb — and then what will be accomplished? Answer: Nothing.”
Throw him out on the curb? He’s been on the curb for years. He has no pull whatsoever with the Democratic leadership. He was ridiculed by the party during both presidential campaigns and treated as an outsider. He wasn’t even allowed in all the primary debates. What exactly did he have to lose? The people of his district voted him in, not the DCCC. His whole appeal to those on the left was that people thought he stood by his principles. That has now been disproven. He has nothing left.
Then some of those citizens have got it right. Broken clock . . .
TS, I understand where you’re coming from, as I have read many of your past posts. Not many are capable of taking your long view, although the point you make about message is certainly valid. The problem is, many here want a concrete and immediate victory, and not a long-term or symbolic one. I guess I’m like that as well, but I can step back and appreciate the richness and perspective of the viewpoints you are kind enough to share with us here. It angers me to see you attacked as you have been today, just know that some here cherish the rarefied observations you frequently share and are glad to have the opportunity to learn from.
We’ve all been traumatized, and are shooting wildly in every direction right now. I trust that in a few days, we will regroup and make some serious plans. Noone is giving up.
I tend to agree with you although there are others around here that don’t have anything positive to say about them but many invectives instead.
If the behavior of some of them wasn’t so incredibly bizarre it would be easier to think of them in rational terms (how’s that for a whole lot of stereotyping …)
It’s important not to lump them all together as one. Some are racists. Some are just ignorant. They are useless. But, some have legit anti-govt, govt accountability, and libertarian positions that are well-informed and worthy of respect. You go too far in characterizing this site’s characterization of them, we’ve had many discussions here of the plausibility of making common cause with them on issues we have in common. Jane even posted about it a month or two ago.
People are just hot and angry today, and lashing out more than they will in a few days. Stick around, and don’t get in too many fights with the regulars. This is the best place I know for intelligent discussion and brainstorming.
Thanks for the guidance and wisdom, I do appreciate it !
I produced the majority of them already. You either looked or you didn’t. If you didn’t, I’m not going to follow your empty allegation that I didn’t produce links. If you did, you can explain to me, not the other way around, why you think numbers produced for ASPE are synonymous with numbers cooked for the White House. You can explain to me, not the other way around, why you think that a journal that asserts that you must disclose all sources of funding that contributed to the results section of a paper (i.e. all results derived on time billed to those funding sources), and any and all connections to for-profit companies related to any part of the paper, would include Jonathan Gruber’s listing of government funding in an opinion column in NEJM. Or ask David Dayen to explain it, because he made the allegation.
And you can explain to me, not the other way around, why funding that Jonathan Gruber managed as Principal Investigator at the National Bureau of Economic Research, is funding the Obama administration is directly paying him at all, let alone being money paid by the White House to get him to produce numbers to their liking.
You see, the case that he had done something wrong with any of the numbers he produced, and had received any funding that was untoward, and that he ever violated disclosure rules for NEJM are all not there at all. I’m not going to prove the negative, you people believe in your scandal, you defamed an economist, you prove the positive. You didn’t in your articles, in fact, most of those which dealt with sums of money data taken off Rayne’s spreadsheet were pure innuendo. And the assertion, made quite directly by Jane Hamsher, that Gruber worked for Nancy Ann De Parle, is quite false. It’s false because the way it was “proved” was to confuse the HHS Office of Health Care Reform with the White House Office of Health Care Reform, and the way you and others here keep thinking there is something I have made up in service to whatever tainted money you’re sure I’m taking, is by lumping all of HHS directly into the White House and saying, “What’s the difference?” Which is about as ignorant as any knuckle dragging teabagger saying, “Keep the government out of my Medicare!”
Sorry to be blunt, but you don’t have the facts. And that.last.phrase. is all I’ve ever been trying to say. YOU.DONT.HAVE.THE.FACTS. You have innuendo and insinuation, only. And because you don’t have the facts, babbling “Prove it” at me is not honest.
Has Anybody Else Read ‘It Can’t Happen Here’ by Sinclair Lewis?
Just witnessed the Majority Leader asking for additional security for Congressional Reps due to threats against them.
That may be a first … Don’t even remember that happening during the ’64 ’65 and ’68 Civil Rights and Voting Rights Legislation …
Oh, and as to the one (1) allegation made at FDL that actually had validity (possibly)? The one that he didn’t disclose all he was asked to disclose by the New York Times and WaPo? Do you believe the protestations of innocence of the NYT? Take a look at this article, also about health care, also about the numbers, also by an economist who crunched numbers for the government. It appeared this past weekend.
Don’t do any googling, don’t access your memory tree, just look at the bio/disclaimer line at the bottom. Does David Holtz-Eakin disclose his affiliations to the GOP? Does it say that the organization he is president of was co-founded (money-wise) by former funders and members of the McCain for President team? Do you know what David Holtz-Eakin’s sources of funding are?
Do you recall what Sally Satel’s affiliations are and where her money comes from? Do you see the point I’m making? The New York Times rarely, if ever, disputes the one line bio description/disclaimer fed to them by an Op-Ed author, no matter how far off it is. It is anybody’s guess whether they ever really went over Dr. Gruber’s funding disclosure for completeness, and whether he would have known he hadn’t disclosed properly for them if he disclosed what he disclosed for NEJM. Maybe he didn’t put something down for them. But since that’s all that anyone here at FDL ever really had on the guy, it’s no wonder that when Larry Mishel blogged for you about what he disagreed with w/resp to Dr. Gruber, he refused to agree with anyone here that Dr. Gruber had done anything dishonest.
My concern is what are you going to do about the 34 House members who voted against there own bill with a public option? At the same time what about those 5 DEM senators who voted against a public option and what are you going to do about them? More importantly what are you going do about the man in the whitehouse who continues throwing us under the bus on this issue of healthcare and will continue to do so on other issues. What we need to do is replace all of them period. Thus a new plan and to let all who seek our support have to follow certain guidelines dictated by us. In other words showing we have the power to replace or take you out given your position on the issues. It about staying or you are gone period. I want the REP and all of it supporters to continue to dig a hole for themselves,but it also mean some DEMS have to go also.