Similarly, the bill with the Nelson abortion language and President Obama’s executive order will be perhaps the biggest political and policy victory for the anti-abortion movement in decades.

And as an extra special bonus, Ben Nelson: ‘I Will Vote Against The House Reconciliation Package’.
Which is means it’s time for the Beltway Dems to punch another hippy,
blame FDL and hope to get a pat on the head from Broder.

Democrats are accused of being socialists and baby killers no matter how hard they try appeasing Republicans or kicking their progressive mainstream base. They take the political blame for “socialism” without the political and policy upside of providing people with a popular public program like Medicare available to all.

Agree almost completely.

The Public Option is in H.R. 4872 Reconciliation Act passed on 3/21
Title II
Subtitle B

Sadly, I doubt the lesson was learned.

The real tragedy is that the Dem leadership is so convinced of the brilliance of their own clever triangulation schemes that they are oblivious to the possibility that there is anything new to learn.

The chance of any course correction or strategic change by Dem leadership after this debacle is zero. They got exactly what they wanted from the beginning. That is why they are so taken with themselves today. They really think they are geniuses.

What do I know? Maybe they are right, maybe they will cruise to huge victories in November from an adoring public.

Then again, maybe not.

Jon, This isn’t the first time this has happened. Clinton got charged with socialism also for his managed care proposals in 1993-94. When will Democrats learn the old lesson: “May as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.”

Btw, Chuck Todd pointed out today that Dems didn’t pass “Government-run” health care “like they have” in the UK and Canada. Of course, in Canada, insurance is Government-run, but health care is still in the hands of private providers. But such small distinctions escape the mighty minds at MSNBC.

Which reminds me: when are you and FDL going to start getting hung for a sheep by forgetting about the PO, and just coming straight out for HR 676, enhanced Medicare for All?

That’s the text of the original House bill (which the Budget Committee used as a shell for the reconciliation bill when it passed out of committee while Pelosi was finishing up drafting the bill he wanted in it). There is no public option in the bill that was passed.

Title II, Part B in the bill that passed covers insurance reforms that apply to grandfathered health plans (something that looks like it conflicts with the Byrd Rule, oh well), pharmaceutical pricing and funding for community health centers.

MSNBC has the text of the 150 page reconciliation bill,
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/03/18/2232071.aspx
and here’s an FDL page with the the 9 page manager’s amendment (which makes only minor corrections, changing “dependent” to “child”, etc).
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/03/20/managers-amendment-to-reconciliation-sidecar-released/

What? How can anybody still be laboring under the illusion that Democrats are interested in passing socially conscious legislation at all? They are not. They are interested in carrying out the whims and agenda of their corporate benefactors, end of story.

Gawd. What will it take for people to get a clue on this?

I’ve always felt we should call the Republicans’ bluff. Since they always accuse us of incredible things, we should go ahead and do some incredible things. Let’s put some real death panels into the healthcare legislation and get to work.

Phone Calls to Wall Street (1938):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOZTldbo2Fw

The Ds accomplished just what they wanted. They got accused of providing ‘nearly universal’ health care, which impressed many low-info voters, while doing nothing of the sort, and while raking it in from PhRMA & insurance corps. I call that a brilliant strategy.

If this health care fight finally taught congressional Democrats that Republicans will always tell insane lies and that they simply can’t ever be appeased with policy changes, it just might have all been worthwhile. If you are going to get the blame either way, do the legislation the smart way to at least get maximum credit when it works.

Sadly, I doubt the lesson was learned.

In fact, I think they already know all of that. They play dumb, because it gives them a plausible excuse for doing the bidding of their patrons, against the interest and will of their constituents. And the press plays along with this charade, because they it makes good narrative.

“Oh this bill is the greatest thing since the invention of sliced bread!”

No, it’s not.

Check out realclearpolitics online. No, the Dems and their claims of the popularity of this bill are wildly exaggerated.

Precisely — the public option was a great gambit when the Veal Pen was being corralled into national Romneycare, but that moment has passed.

but health care is still in the hands of private providers.

Um,no it isn’t. In Ontario, doctors and other healthcare workers are employees of the province/state and hospitals receive their funding from the province/state. So, no, it is not in the hands of private providers. Taxpayers own the hospitals.

Q: Have you heard about McDonald’s’ new Obama Value Meal?
A: Order anything you like and the guy behind you has to pay for it.

Sadly Al Sharpton didn’t help much by saying that people who voted for OBama knew were voting for socialism—cringe

In Canada if you need a gall bladder operation and it’s in November, you’re out of luck. Their system is out of money by the end of September and you’re stuck waiting until January (unless a bloated bureaucrat thinks it’s life threatening).

Even in the US many hospitals are publicly owned.

But we can all respect him for speaking the truth.

Hahahahaa…….ok where did you hear that one? Please show us more of your intellect by proving it. You see, money is not the answer to everything when it comes to healthcare. I won’t wait for your proof, because you are just throwing those nice talking point lies around.

When I read the posts on this site I have this feeling that we think we are entitled to something and if we don’t get it then it is the President’s fault or Pelosi or someone else. Have you noticed that the other side, yeah those reprehensible Tea Baggers and repugs, are out there all the time? Where were you? Where was the support for the President and the House on the ground where it was most visible? Until I see that this stuff all comes across as whining much as you would see a child stomp his feet if he doesn’t get what he wants. If the other side is energized and you are not —–

But are the doctors government employees? Nope. THAT is REAL healthcare.

Depends upon which people. The progressives are hamstrung by progressive ideology — do the doubters at FDL really represent anything more than a small portion of them? Oh, sure, the teabaggers and other wingnuts hate this thing, but how useful is their opposition when they behave like a bunch of drama queens about a personal mandate which could go as high as 2.5% of annual income?

Oh, I’d love to see a unified American public come out in opposition to this piece of crap. But frankly it doesn’t look like it will happen.

Why should you have to fight for something every other wealthy nation has? Why do you have to mail, phone and march, in order to get politicians to do what is right?

Check out the polls cassi. This thing isn’t nearly as popular as the trolls from DKos and HuffPost pretend it is. Even Obama’s polling numbers have barely moved. Those celebrating, are in for a rude awakening.

Why should you have to fight for something every other wealthy nation has? Why do you have to mail, phone and march, in order to get politicians to do what is right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q&feature=related

I guess in this case, ‘what is right’ is defined as what canadianbeaver wants.

That sure makes it easy for you.

Support? I agree with you the Left should be out there, but NOT supporting National Romney Care.

The democrats got exactly what they wanted and they used the republicans and will continue to use them, just as they used the left. Blaming the republican because they can’t get more done or better policies. I even think they deliberately demoralized their progressive base so they can continue their republican policies without the left having the energy to fight them.

Where did I say that? I didn’t so stop it with the strawman bullshit. IF a majority wants REAL healthcare, and not insurance crap, why would you or anyone else need to stand on the Whitehouse lawn with picket signs? These clowns were elected to represent the people, not Wall Street, not Big Pharma, and not insurance companies.

please.
spare us the nonsense.

there are plenty of reasosn to dislike the Obama health care bill, but do so honestly, not with the same tired lies we’ve heard since reagan was on GE theatre.

Hey tinman, you’re home schooling hasn’t served you well. The tinman wanted a heart and the scarecrow a brain. You have neither. You are what used to be called an “ugly American.”

I think what your analysis misreads is that this IS the bill Obama and the Senate Democrats wanted. They didn’t want a social insurance program. They wanted a private insurance scheme. See, it’s a win-win…for them anyway. That’s why the Left has to stop thinking to can give deference to the political process. We actually are not all on the same side. We should have rallied around Medicare for All. Indeed, your lesson could apply to the so-called progressive activists groups who agreed to the Democrats demand that universal Medicare not be discussed. Those PO supports who bent over backward to please the congressional Democrats by ignoring the possibilities Medicare offers as a solution to the health care crisis, were still deemed unreasonable for not giving up until they did.

I’m sorry, but Democrats are simply idiots.

They keep thinking their opposition will react to policy, when their opposition is concentrating on politics. Republicans will always consistently throw policy they might otherwise favor under the bus to score political points. And rule #1 in scoring political points is “Never allow your enemy a victory.”

So Dems water down their own legislation to nearly nothing and still get no support. No shit. Really?

And now comes the really “fun” part. Because by creating a weak, corporate bill, they have handed Republicans ammo for the fall. Foolishly overconfident Democrats will crow about numbers and statistics and policy minutiae and you’ll be able to see voters’ eyes glaze over in real time. All the while, Republicans (aided by a compliant corporate media) will be hitting them with a few simple emotional-trigger talking points repeated over and over. They don’t have to be accurate. They don’t even have to be true. And it’s the Republicans who will (as usual) win the message traction war.

We’ve seen this movie before.

I have this feeling that we think we are entitled to something and if we don’t get it then it is the President’s fault

Obama cut deals with the insurance, medical, and drug cartels before the congressional process even got started, then pretends to be mad at them. He took voluntary, affirmative action to do what he promised he would not do

“Any healthcare bill I sign will have a public option.” Absolute horseshit.

The Obamabots on this site make everything stupid/funny.

Instead of having a Health-care blitzkreig with Obama leading the charge as he recovered from his post inaugural ball hangover(s), we got the SitzKreig, the phony war where everyone looked around and nothing happened.

But we all know who Bart Stupak is now, and we know that the Catholic Church is a player in our political scene in a big way… a man who ran what used to be the inquisition now gives marching orders to American Bishops to insert themselves into our lives.

Drugs will cost more, insurance will not only be mandatory but cost more and I guaran-danm-tee you that no Health insurance CEO will take home a smaller paycheck because of all this “socialized” medicine.

Oh, and we have $208 Billion dollars of really, really cool fighter jets on order…. I hope none of the women flying them ever need an abortion.

Sadly, I doubt the lesson was learned.

Ditto!

Ditto. None of these folks seemingly have ever run for office much less managed a poltical campaign for elective office. While they are politically active, there is a certain nihilist cry baby aspect to all of this professed “disappointment”. Mr. Walker has never provided a legislative scenario including the votes and by whom that would have produced a single payer system from this Congress. Sure Obama made mistakes such as the fool Baucus but all of the present problems with healthcare can be traced back to the Clintons, the DLC and the Wall Street democrats so actively promoted by the Clintons. No one seriously suggests that Obama would not have trumpeted single payer after he was elected if the votes were there which they never were as Mr. Walker should well know. The Clinton democrats dominate the democrats in this Congress, said and done.

Because by creating a weak, corporate bill, they have handed Republicans ammo for the fall…..We’ve seen this movie before.

This is the first time I’m going to enjoy it though. Grab your popcorn!

We may have National Romney Care as you say but we got what we fought for starting last summer. This is a fight that takes everyone, not unlike civil rights. You cannot just stand down when the Tea Baggers and friends are out there every day at the town halls and in your face right in the capital. We have a beginning now. Instead of knocking it, get out there and improve on it. We will see again this November how much the Left really cares or maybe just blame Obama some more.

Jane Hamsher, Upon Losing, Doubles Down!

Jane Hamsher – who sided with the Republicans, the Tea Parties and the Insurance companies has doubled down: did you hear the one that says Republicans would’ve played nice if ONLY Obama had left Mandates off the table…

You played your hand and came up empty. Your heart was in the right place, but you believed that you carried far more weight than you actually do – and once your head was filled with Jane Hamsher, you thought you could change history. But you couldn’t.

There they go again, lies, damn lies plus they are boring. They are such shills, catapulting the corporate propaganda. They want to escalate this because they want to be with the Kool Kidz.

Why do you have to mail, phone and march, in order to get politicians to do what is right?

Do you mail, phone and march in order to get politicians to do what you don’t want?

Refering to ‘what you want’ as ‘what is right’ places moral superiority on your position.

According to the most recent CNN poll on the bill, compiled over the weekend, 39% favor this bill, 43% think it’s too liberal, and 13% oppose it because it’s not liberal enough.

So it appears that damnfool opponents of this bill outnumber the smart ones by a margin of more than three to one, while the “progressives” who ought to know better are three to one in favor of it.

This is not good news.

Yes, it all worked out wonderfully for congressional democrats and their owners.

There is a complex interplay of the interests of the vested and the interests of the elected, sometimes those interests are in tension, sometimes they run smoothly along the same path.

We should at least learn OUR lesson from this last example of the process of government, and not continue to pretend that there is any truth to the promises politicians make to voters. Our power must start with this knowledge.

I go to realclearpolitics and you can read all the polls and not just one. It gives you a clear indication of just who support this crap. Not as many as is hinted with the trolls. To listen online, you’d swear Obama and Pelosi just parted the seas, and found a cure for cancer, as well as giving everyone a new pony. Polls show, that isn’t the case at all.

We have a beginning now

No, we don’t. The bill is a permanent subsidy to insurance companies, who will be able to parlay their extra cash into increased political opposition to real reform.

http://www.calnurses.org/media-center/in-the-news/2010/mar/pro-single-payer-doctors-health-bill-leaves-23-million-uninsured.html

With Democrats like you, who needs Republicans?

What the hell are you yapping about? Go away. What “I want” is the same as what a majority wants. REAL health reform. If you don’t want that, then that is your problem. Go join the teabaggers or something and quit flaming me.

They’re just baiting. They play just like the Republicans actually. The thing to do is not react to them but act or play the game on your own terms, something Dems have never been good at doing.

Yes, depressing on both counts.

Where was the support for the president? Did you truly want us to support his deal with pharma, to not import drugs, or his deal with the hospital for profit lobbyists to kill the public option, or the one where the insurance came to him and said of course if you make it a law that everyone buys our insurance we will not be able to refuse(pre-existing condition)them or drop them, but hey we will have 45 million more customers(must have broken the insurance companies heart they only got 32 million mandated. What I really loved is when the lobbyist for the hospital said he could trust obama and he would not allow the public option in, per their deal and yet during his campaign he told the american people he would have a public option, and we could not trust what the said. Is that the guy we were supposed to support? And in reality, if the tea baggers had half a brain and knew what was going on, they should be the once supporting this president. He just did more for their anti-abortion and corporations then Bush could have dreamed of. You would not have stood for this, if it was Bush doing it.

As for the reason you see Tea baggers and not us out there, they are not covering us on the corporate media. There are far more of us out there then the tea baggers. And besides that we are out there fighting this president on war, climate change, bailing out the banksters, spying on americans, torturing others, supporting the firing of teachers, extending the policies of Bush.

But hey, I have no right to complain and I should support this guy because he has a “D” after his name. Well, during Clinton I counted on the corporate media and NPR and did not know about what Clinton was doing to this country. With the internet, there is no excuse this time.

OMG, you are still blaming the Clintons? Geeze Louise. Obama is conservative. Wake up.

What if the politically dominant faction of the Democratic Party is strongly committed to fiscally conservative policies?

If it is thus committed, then Obama’s use of Joe Lieberman’s antics during the Senate debate over health care, Obama’s bipartisanship, his call for deficit reduction, his freeze on non-military discretionary spending, the insurance and pharmaceutical backroom deals his office brokered, etc. appear less as a capitulation to the right than as an expression of Obama’s conservatism.

It may be time to give up on the belief that Democrats and their party are essentially social democrats and are waiting for their political moment to realize their essence. The Democratic Party is captured best by characterizing it as a pro-empire, pro-corporatist and fiscally conservative entity. Naturally, the lower strata are meant to bear the brunt its fiscal conservative policies.

I’m sorry. I don’t think this is a beginning. I think it’s a road block.

we got what we fought for starting last summer.

No….Obama got what he promised in his deals with the insurance, drug, and hospital industries.

FDL and progressives wrote, called, blogged til they were blue in the face. It was pointless. Obama used his buddy Baucus to ram through the bill he wanted. Wonder why Obama never called out or pressured any of the Blue Dogs who were allegedly “ruining” Obama’s wanted bill? Lincoln said he never called her or pressured her. He went to Montana and praised Baucus when Baucus was doing his two month kabuki in committee with the bill, if I remember correctly.

It is actually an amazing accomplishment. In one year Obama has chased progressives and young voters out of the party. People here don’t swear loayalty to people, but to issues. As you will find in November, he may have won this battle, but he’s lost the war.

Clintons were/are conservatives as well. Obama is just continuing their same policies, because, most of his staff are ex-Clintonites. But, after the next elections, if the Reps win again, they’ll go back to NeoConitis, because that’s how politics are played. It isn’t who you vote for that holds the power and makes decisions, but those behind the curtains. There is a reason Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were in government for decades without getting elected.

He’s conservative because he’s conservative.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of the opposition to this bill in the US comes from right-wing fools who hate “socialism,” whereas the “progressives” are for the most part in the Veal Pen on this one.

I don’t know what to think about posts like this one, blaiming the democrats as bowing to republican demands. It should be obvious by now that this is the bill the president and leadership really wanted all along. No Medicare buy in, no public option, no single payer and massive wealth transfers to pharma and insurance.

It doesnt do any good to analyze the bill this way, because when you do you get solutions to problems that don’t exist. The problem is the president is either an incredible liar. Or the most incompetant major politician in the US in the last century, perhaps ever, take your pick.

Once you start from that point then you can try to figure out what to do next.

Quit blaming the left. Your hero wouldn’t even give Single Payer a seat at the table. Then, he bargained away the Public Option in secret, after promising his supporters he’d fight for it.

The guy is a sellout.

Open you eyes. Liberals have no voice and no place in today’s Democratic Party.

I mean, this “Obama is just continuing their same policies, because, most of his staff are ex-Clintonites.” Who hired them? I agree Bill Clinton is a fairly conservative Democrat. That said, Obama has been to the Right of him as President, see Obama on health care, jobs, and womens reproductive health.

Don’t forget education policy:

http://www.counterpunch.org/weil08242009.html

did you really think you could snap your fingers and the insurance companies and the Tea Baggers and the repugs and the independents would just fade away? This is a long term fight and if you are not up for it then you lose. This bill covers 32 million that were not covered before and it provides them and small business with subsidies. It does some real good for the average American too. It is not perfect, so we should not have it is your point? And if I don’t agree with that I must also be a Tea bagger?? O I know it was Obama who should have snapped his fingers.

You are giving the Dems too much credit. There are no lessons to be learned. They wanted to pass an industry friendly bill. It’s what they set out to do and it’s what they did. They didn’t screw it up accidentally. They didn’t screw anything up at all – they accomplished their mission. Everything else is just theatre.

It’s just that their mission screws us.

Oh yeah, that’s right. He has the eduction policy of George Bush on steroids. He is A CONSERVATIVE. I listened to him very closely in the primary and he always staked out a position to the Right of the Party, which somehow some mistook as being “progressive.

I think I follow. But that means the president always intended to do one thing but represented something else to the public. Doesn’t that make him a liar. Is that what you meant.

And your point is the Left should just form another party and then all will be well? Good luck with that.

The president is not paying attention to the left right now, probably because he feels no serious resistance.

What are you talking about? George Bush passed a huge expansion of prescription drug coverage under Medicare, while I support the notion of covering drugs for the elderly, it doesn’t mean I support his proposed method for doing it.

Obama could have rallied the public for public insurance. The public loves Medicare, they polled highly for a public insurance program, he and the other Democrats could have done that. They didn’t want to. It has nothing to do with snapping ones fingers.

I suggest you read Robert Reich’s ‘What the “I’m Mad as Hell Party” Could Do’. Teabaggers are not the only ones who are angry. Tough sh*t.

I gotta agree with you. The Dems out-corporatist-ed the Repugs and THAT’S what they’re pissed about. With all the new campaign cash coming into this next “election” from The Corporation, the Democrats will be rewarded handsomely for selling out the American people.

Meanwhile, while we were enthralled by this capitol hill “health” debate, in other news, states are cutting Medicaid to the bone…again, for their budget shortfalls. Let’s see. it’ll take 4 years for this to kick in so, how much suffering for the poor, disabled & children in the meantime?

Then, there’s the added bonus of taking wimmin’s rights one step further away from us…even tho it IS the law (who cares?)
This is NOT going to be pretty.

First they elevated corporations, then they ensured rates will skyrocket, then they came for socialists, then they came for small business, then they came for immigrants, then they came for working poor and middle, then they came for women… and there was nothing left but fascist mandates and a promise to fix things later.

This post makes me really upset… because its 100% right.

If this health care fight finally taught congressional Democrats that Republicans will always tell insane lies and that they simply can’t ever be appeased with policy changes,

If this health care fight finally taught the public that Republicans will always tell insane lies and that they simply can’t ever be appeased with policy changes.

There are still a lot of independents and folks who vote but don’t follow politics closely who wonder why Congress can’t just get along. And there are those in at least 30 Democratically held Congressional Districts who are getting the same bullcrap from their Democratic Congressman that Republicans get from theirs.

Remember that a random-sampling poll showed that only 13% of the population thought the healthcare bill passed Sunday night was “not liberal enough”. There is a lot of field work that progressives must do if they are to start changing the public discourse. Starting with “Earth to America; the Soviet Union no longer is there as an enemy; the Cold War is over.”

This is a long term fight and if you are not up for it then you lose. This bill covers 32 million that were not covered before and it provides them and small business with subsidies. It does some real good for the average American too. It is not perfect, so we should not have it is your point?

[ ] Cool story bro

“Any healthcare bill I sign will have a public option.”

Not only did Obama NOT FIGHT for what he explicitly promised, he dealt it away before the process even began. If Obama is going to live up to his word, I guess he’s going to veto this bill, right?

You saw the arm twisting that he applied to progressives to get this monstrosity passed. Where was that for the Blue Dogs earlier? Ahhhh….it’s pointless. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.

Bottom line, how stupid do Rahm, Obama and YOU think we are? Not stupid enough to pretend not to notice.

All reality starts as a dream.

If you think that this President or this Democratic Party cares a whit about liberal values, then you’re dreaming, too!

“The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”

You go right ahead and keep marching lockstep with the people who are playing you for a fool. See how THAT works out for you.

Drudge linked to a story that really made me sad Hmm, I’m starting to think it hasn’t sunk in to a lot of people that the plan doesn’t get started for FOUR YEARS. Bonus downer, this guy doesn’t realize he has to pay up to 9% of his income on premiums before he can start on the co-payments.

DURHAM, N.C. — Uninsured Triangle residents said Monday that they eagerly await the overhaul of the nation’s health care system.

“It’s just going to be like Christmas,” said DeCarlo Flythe, who lost health coverage for his family when he was laid off almost three years ago. “It’s going to be great. You know, no worries (about) the bills. We are going to go ahead and pay our co-pay and be alright.
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7281166/

New CBS poll

Americans believe that both Republicans and Democrats were fighting about health care reform because of politics, not policy, a new CBS News poll finds.

Asked why Democrats worked to pass a health care bill, 57 percent said “mostly political reasons.” Just 35 percent said it was because Democrats think the bill is good policy.

Americans had an even more cynical view of Republican motivations: Sixty-one percent said Republicans were acting on the basis of political concerns, while 29 percent said Republicans truly believed the bill was bad policy.

While partisans on both sides tended to think their party was acting out of policy concerns, independents were overwhelmingly likely to say that both parties were simply playing politics.

We mailed, phoned and went door-to-door to elect Obama, who said he was for health care reform that included a public option. So no, we shouldn’t have to “make him do it.” He should be leading the way, doing it. Instead, we got…what we got.

c’mere

yesterday, the WH announced it’s appointment of DLC Head Bruce ‘Mr Privatization’ Reed to it’s commission on ‘Entitlement Reform’

so once they’ve slashed it and opened our retirement $$$ to Wall Street, (no doubt in some hybridized, but beautifully compromised form) you and others of your, um, ilk . . .will be over here telling us ‘it’s a start’, ‘not perfect’, but ‘necessary for bending the cost curve’ blah blah blah. Teabaggers, Republicans, and Independents aren’t the problem

Go Team !

We still are in some parts of the world, noticeably those we’ve tried to bomb back to the Stone Age since Viet Nam.

I am sorry I don’t support your view of the President. You really should get someone else to represent you, but then I am not sure who that will be. Someone said Obama may be a one term President. That may be right. But you know what? he will have this health care bill next to his name forever — something no one else has been able to do for a hundred years.I think that is something and I support him for it. And, yeah, I think the bailouts and stimulus were absolutely necessary unless you wanted even higher unemployment and a depression like your grandaddy saw. We need to be supportive in face of the Tea Baggers or suffer the consequence. I guess that is where you are at.

well, I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt in suggesting that he might be merely incompetant, but I think liar.

Let’s not forget the betrayal by Rep. Dennis Kucinich. Without his flip-flop, many other so-called “progressive Democrats” would not have collapsed like dominoes. I am not Ralph Nader (cf democracynow.org discussion with Kucinich). I don’t have to be tactful and respectful of Dennis the healthcare menace. He is now just a rep from Ohio; just as untrustworthy as other Democrats.

What if the politically dominant faction of the Democratic Party is strongly committed to fiscally conservative policies?

What if, on the other hand, the politically dominant faction of the Democratic Party is strongly committed to making believe they are champions of fiscally conservative policies?

The Democratic Party is captured best by characterizing it as a pro-empire, pro-corporatist and fiscally conservative entity.

If we characterize the Democratic Party as pro-empire, and pro-corporatist, and I think you’re right, then we just about negate any possibility that they’re also fiscally conservative, because there are absolutely no limits to the amount of our money that they are willing to spend on war and dominion.

There are no fiscal conservatives in Washington, there are only crony capitalists who take turns handing the taxpayers money to their their corporate friends, in return for a share of the booty.

Sorry Jon, but this article appears to me to be an attempt at revisionist history. The way I remember the battles over insurance care legislation this past year was Democrats-for-corporate-welfare vs. progressives with Republicans sitting on the sidelines. Remember the Repubs weren’t even offering a health care plan of their own? Remember that? Remember that only one Repub would even negotiate at all, then voted against the bill? Remember that? No this past year had nothing to do with Republicans. And as a progressive, I can tell you that I’m not half as mad at Republicans as I am at Democrats! Democrats sold out the progressive “stakeholders,” as the president likes to call people, by refusing us a place at the table. And “progressive” leaders in Congress either capitulated without a stand or were browbeaten into submission by the WH to leave out the public option or not include it in amendments. Single payer was dropped even before the debate began by the President. A clever little story that points a finger at the Republicans will not divert my frustration and the betrayal I feel toward Democrats. I’m done with spineless, corporatist, blue-yellow-brown dog democrats – all of them. So don’t tell us that Republicans gave us this nasty bill. They didn’t have a thing to do with it. It was Dems who gave us this insurance care law.

A bill with the public option could not be passed. Not passing a bill means no one gets coverage of any type. That’s your preference?

ygm FB

just now saw it. thanks sweetie

You said it, Sister/Brother!

Your encapsulation sums up the situation perfectly.

The Democrats are playing liberals like fools, and until we draw some blood, nothing will change.

did you really think you could snap your fingers and the insurance companies and the Tea Baggers and the repugs and the independents would just fade away?

Of course not. I am also, mind you, not under the delusion that putting insurance companies under permanent subsidy will make them “fade away” either — in fact, quite the opposite will occur.

This bill covers 32 million that were not covered before

It will probably be quite a bit less than that — CBO is quite optimistic — and then there’s this problem of coverage not offering any real guarantees of access to affordable care. The insurer regulations are insufficient to deter the insurers from denying claims, and will be badly enforced by states without money. There might have been a real debate about that except that it was walled off through constant invocation of this “progressive” canard that people were dying through lack of insurance. People die because they don’t get health CARE. Insurers are gatekeepers.

and it provides them and small business with subsidies.

with money taken from “Cadillac” plans and Medicare — robbing Peter’s access to health care to pay for Paul’s.

It is not perfect, so we should not have it is your point?

This claim that the current bill is a “step forward” generally ignores the fact that it provides no foundation for any real improvement: no public option, no Medicare buy-in, no real cost controls — but it does provide a foundation for permanent subsidy of health insurance corporations, who will use the money to fight whatever competing foundation dare announce its existence.

What’s really sad, moreover, is that the people who oppose this development are a bunch of Teabaggers and that folks who ought to know better are too busy cheering Sunday’s victory for the insurance companies.

I vote liar, too. He’s perfectly capable of breaking knees to get what he wants, as long as it’s liberal knees he’s busting.

Just ask Byron Dorgan or Bernie Sanders or Dennis Kucinich.

Next to his name will be the names of thousands who have died in Af and Pak-stan, Iraq, Columbia, Mexico, Guatemala, and all the other victims of Obama’s continuing imperialism and militarism. Next to his name will be the names of 180,000 Americans who will die before 2014, when his insurer-care “reform” is activated.

This war-criminal who kills with affability; the president who gave away our children’s taxes to his finance industry friends, the Peace-Prize butcher will be long remembered. You are absolutely right!

The tantrums here have become quite amazing.

Some of it is true. For the first time in my life, I have to agree with the republicans and if Obama is lucky, the republicans will figure it out and love him.

Our educated POTUS could have — along with a portion of his D Party — embarked on an intelligent examination of perhaps ten different ideas of how nations in Europe,Asia,South America do healthcare and then also fully reviewed with Americans how our own Federal Medicare or VA System works,who it works for,how well it works.

Instead our POTUS — Mr. Changey Hopey Yes We Can-ey took single payer off the table and refused to talk about it. He sabotaged any PO ideas no matter how weak or marginal. He did not conduct an intelligent national conversation about American healthcare pathways going forward.

He did barter/negotiate secret deals with AHIP/PhRMA. He did slow walk the process when it suited his purposes to thwart intelligent political debates by letting the Know Nothings dominate late 2009 summer with the death panels nonsense and who is going to kill gramps and grammy malarkey. He swayed and swooned on any PO ideas while behind the scenes he was pulling strings to effect what his frontmen Baucus and Conrad were doing or more on point not doing.

So now we are being told what a triumph this AHIP/PhRMA Approved HCR is by Obama,Pelosi and lots of D Party hacks and the Obama/Pelosi Bots.

The truth being this is not a triumph other than for status quo AHIP/PhRMA regimes — given to them and us by Barack Obama and his Dupeocrats Party.

But by all means let’s blame the R Party for this betrayal of us by Barack Obama and his hacktacular D Party Cave Ins and MisDirections and Rotation Villains. Because Eric Cantor and John Boehner surely made Barack Obama strike secret deals with AHIP and PhRMA. Barack Obama was powerless to thwart Cantor,Boehner and Mitchell. Shivering and quivering ensued unless Barack Obama did what they wanted him to do. It must be their fault. This being the mindless nonsense now employed by the D Party for blaming the Rs.

The American two party “conflict” so effectively gamed and played by large entrenched organizations like AHIP and PhRMA (or AIPAC,MIC and Wall Street ). They get what they want from both the Ds and Rs. Does not really matter from who. As long as they get it. Which our Yes We Can POTUS has just made sure took place.

Honduras is the current target. Shock Doctrine and death squads, America’s gifts to the world.

A bill with the public option could not be passed.

But that’s exactly how he ended up negotiating this bill — using the exact secret processes that he railed against and which he swore he would banish. It was only because The Huffington Post’s Ryan Grim uncovered the secret memo-deal the White House had entered into with PhRMA — a deal they had publicly denied until then and until PhRMA demanded they publicly affirm it — did we know that the administration had agreed to oppose drug re-importation and bulk price negotiations, measures Obama (and the Democrats generally) repeatedly promised to enact. Indeed, when it came time to vote on drug re-importation, the administration concocted false “safety concerns” about re-importation in order to whip against Byron Dorgan’s re-importation amendment, rather than admit that they really opposed it because they secretly promised they would to PhRMA, which hates drug re-importation because it lowers prices. And it was only two days ago that we finally had confirmed what (at least to me) was obvious all along: namely, the White House had agreed in secret with health care industry representatives that there would be no public option in a final bill, even as the President publicly feigned support for it and pretended to be fighting for it.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/03/20/health_care/index.html

Yeah, all those stupid facts they use. Feh!

I think the Republicans have already figured it out. Not the electorate, but the politicians.

That DK slam is interesting because as of last week FDL’s site traffic matched the traffic at Kos. So they’re probably feeling a bit burned by that.

Jon, I could hug you for that thread, and for not joining all the frabjous-daying that’s going on with so many democrats.

This was, in substantial measure, a sellout. It’s no accident that hospital and health insurance stocks went up yesterday.

I don’t think that Obama and the dems needed to protect the $275 billion that was made off of sickness and ageing in america by the health leeches.

I think that they could have afforded, and we badly needed, healthcare reform that would have had Wall Street shitting green nickels.

The tantrums here have become quite amazing.

…which equals, “I can no longer argue against the facts laid out here, so I will resort to calling everyone ‘shrill’.”

The left as a group are inconsequential. We serve the same purpose as the tea baggers. A group to fire up when the elected are out of power, ignore when they’ve obtained it.

Have you seen any left/progressive viewpoints in the media for the past 8, 12, 24 years? Except to be held up as ridiculous, impossible, crazy ideas?

Elections are won and lost depending on the strength of the marketing campaign. The elected then go to work for the vested.

That isn’t to say that working to keep good solid progressive ideas in the public consciousness is a bad idea- it’s just that you can’t expect the politicians to actually act on them.

What jlamkin said:

about Obama’s “toughness” and “courage” in dealing with us fucking retards.

Except they have privatized our votes, so they no longer have to listen to the people.

We need to be supportive in face of the Tea Baggers or suffer the consequence.

That dog won’t hunt….

Here is the more important point.

This is no first step. Dem’s will pay a very heavy price in November. They will remember that for a long time. Doubtful they will be able to convince anyone to walk the plank by saying “there’s no plank” in the future.

So, no attempt to do even more will occur. It will become a third rail.

Secondly, you all know this bill is imperfect. It IS going to cause insurance policy rates to go up. WHO will be blamed for that? It IS going to cost more than the Dem’s said. WHO will be blamed for that? People are going to very pissed off about the mandate when time comes for them to HAVE to pay insurance companies. WHO will get blamed for that??

The bill is like the big party where the booze is flowing and the beer goggles make everything look wonderful. But, the hangover is going to haunt the Democrats for many years to come.

You see, it is an imperfect bill, doomed to failure in many ways. Even though it is not socialist, the public now has it labeled such. When it fails, “socialism” will fail.

Had the Democrats REALLY set out to reform the system and not just get “anything” passed, they might have reaped the rewards for many years.

Who were the big winners on Wall Street yesterday? Hospitals, drug companies and some insurance companies.

Yes, they’re very good at dividing and conquering the people. But the job is made much tougher when the left media and veal pen progressive bloggers are laying down for the administration. I believe the president would listen and do more for the left if he felt some pressure, just even in the media and the blogosphere. He doesn’t feel that pressure right now. He only feels it from the right, so he’ll cater to the right.

If this was Bush, you would be outraged, so as I see it, Obama is far more dangerous then Bush could ever be. And don’t get me wrong, I don’t see people standing up to Obama. He is good. He knows he can give a good speech and people will love him. He knows that Americans don’t have a clue as to what he is really doing.

You can agree with me or with Obama. And you have a right to your opionin, just not the facts and if you agree with the facts, I would say you would love it in the republican party. You may want to shut off the corporate media. They can’t be trusted.

42- 0. That’s the way I want my team to win. But it doesn’t always happen that way, mostly because there is a team on the other side. When you take the field you have to be prepared for a hard fought game.The end result is not predetermined. Politics is not much different. You should know that I too can find all sorts of things to criticize about Obama and health care. But, in the main, I cheer him for this success. It runs along with my feeling about what is right. Insurance companies making a profit? I am not as exercised about that as you seem to be. But, yeah, I want to control them and when the politics are right I might take them out. That time is not now. We do not have the might and we never did. Obama is not even that liberal. (not sure I am either)

“A bill with the public option could not be passed.”

If Obama had put his clout behind a real P.O., or better yet, just single-payer, and the dem congers had kept running it out for another shoot-down by the people who’ve nearly ruined american, it would have defined the assholes for what they are, better than any speech, or even, their own drool-on-chin rants.

If he had fought the good fight, and regularly, “lost” to their obstructionist tactics, the voters would relate to that, and he would have owned the GOP’s scrotal sac by the time the mid-terms get here. Instead, we’re probably going to see the largest and quickest reversal of a political landslide, in our history.

And if he can’t get real HCR done with some of the biggest margins since FDR, what’s he going to do with razor thin majorities, or maybe, non-existent majorities?

Actually, that last paragraph may be just rhetorical, in that it’s looking more and more like Obama, and the dems will be very comfortable with their status of one-legged ducks for the last two years of Obama’s only term in office. It will relieve them of the burden of all the expectations and hope that got them elected.

The vitriol here is so Republican-T-baggerish. Jesus Christ. If we don’t get our way then it must be the President sold out. I thought the thought on this forum was on a higher plane than most, but when it is all said and done it reverts to baby talk. It has taken 100 years to get some kind of national health insurance and this President did it. He did it against a million dollars a day of opposition; not a single Republican vote in either house; Right wing domination of the air waves; main stream media that didn’t have the guts to point out that the opposition was making everything up and playing it anyway; lies, and more lies; Blue Dogs; pro-life Democrats; and a progressive movement that threatened to withhold support if we didn’t get our exact demands.
The President and the leadership used bailing wire and chewing gum to put together something that has eluded us for a century. How about some credit? Now we can fix what is wrong with it. The work is not over. As progressives we did yeoman’s work to get it this far, but we didn’t do a perfect job or it would have been easier. Now is not the time to become pussies.
Jane has done a superb job holding up her end and ideals but didn’t win this one. That doesn’t mean we have to quit and go home. Let’s build on it and go forward. The future is monumentally brighter from this point on. We now have National Health Care. Finally. The job is to make it better. I believe it will be easier to repair than to get in the first place. We are over the biggest hump. The administration and the President didn’t do a perfect job; they are only in office just a year and still learning, but look what they accomplished. Time to go back to work.

Where do you get off with this shit? Do you live here? Get a life, and if you get sick in the US, God help you. Canada’s health care problem suffers from underfunding, but it covers emergencies immediately and doesn’t bankrupt ordinary people for getting sick. How many charwomen in the US are insured? In Canada they all are. Taxi drivers, too. Imagine that! It’s not just the Rancho Santa Fe crowd that gets to enjoy medical care up here.

Republican’s bluff? 80% of what passes fro Republicanism is a result of a political system whose aim it is to keep the population at each other’s throat, preoccupied with one another, while the creators of this ‘condition’ trample us at every turn.

We’ve been rudely awakened to the reality of HCR after 1 year of oblivious slumber, so let’s extrapolate from what we’ve come to realize about our cynical government and apply our insights to the Rep/Demschism thats nurtured
by our government.

Show the fucks what a united (bpartisanship) populace can do to their evil schemes by rebuilding bridges that they have burned.

Wake the fuck up, please!

The Democrats in reality know what comprehensive, sensible, and just HCR policy looks like. But given our corrupt governmental system where votes and influence are bought and sold via lobbyist and corporate money, they’re unable to pass any effective reform and maintain their political power and status quo. They basically have sold the soul of the Democratic party to the highest bidder. Obama is the man now because he was able to sell out all Democratic Party principles to corporate money, and at the same time effectively sell (through lies and manipulation) the garbage to the American people as landmark reform.

“That dog won’t hunt.”

LOVE it. :o) :o) :o)

The droolchin flatearth bible-zombies are NOT the problem. For now, they are irrelevant. If the people using them as red-herrings to try to cover Obama’s feckless ass are really worried about them, then let me point something out to you:

Passing a healthcare reform bill that mandates 30 million americans into the arms of the health insurance leeches, on pain of having the IRS come after them if they don’t, is putting democratic balls into rightwing peckerhead bench-vises, politically speaking.

THAT is high-velocity ammo for these wingnuts. And they are going to be using it.

If we had made the real changeover to a Canadian-style system, where you walk into a hospital or medical center and put down your card, and you are treated, and that is IT, if this had just been explained and documented to the people, instead of Obama’s meeting with the healthcare leeches and their uber-lobbyists (and then, trying to hide the meetings…) to get their “input”, we could have been off to the races. Now, we get shafted both ways.

Not even so much as the choice of a public option for americans, and the asshats got the big-government bugaboo that will play in Peoria.

See everyone at the mid-terms? Or not.

Big hug for Knut; get ‘em. :o)

I believe the dominant faction of the DP believes that limits do exist to the amount of money the US can spend on war and its empire. Dismantling the welfare state will help to pay for the warfare state.

It’s not deficit eradication that’s important. It’s balanced budgets and deficit reduction.

That said, I do not believe the strategy is rational. America can no longer support an empire. A sound economy is the source of a nation’s political capacity abroad. Large does not entail sound. In other words, this is one of those situations that will not go on forever because situations that cannot endure for eternity will not last till the end of time.

Wait a minute here.
I won’t dispute this sell out POS by Congressional Democrats.
Nor will I argue that they put their own power mad, greedy selves before the greater good by not standing together against our Dictator in Chief.

But, the bottom line is we had a two faced Chief Executive. He made a deal with pharma and insurance way back in June was it or August?, that there would be no PO. And behind the scenes he was protecting his corporate cronies all along. Enforcing his promise to them yet allowing some Dems to keep leading people on so party members could keep on asking for campaign cash from PO supporters. When I think of all the poor saps who were BEGGING these people to fight for the PO it turns my stomach. Frankly, this is the most reprehensible type of sleazeball behavior and evidence of their contempt for us. Could even be considered somewhat fraudulent on the part of the president since money was being collected.

Obama fought like a Banchee all the way to the bitter end. He kept his promise to all his corporate buddies and threw us under the bus. All these months he KNEW there he WAS NOT going to allow a public option while simultaneouly he and his smooth talking minions were cruelly playing on the real life and death needs of average Americans. Disgraceful beyond measure.

The guy is a massive scam artist. As far as I’m concerned, nothing he says should be believed. Nothing, zippo, nada.

It has taken 100 years to get some kind of national health insurance and this President did it.

What’s next?! Let’s end homelessness by mandating that everyone has to buy a house. End unemployment by mandating that everyone has to have a job! Now we’re cooking with gas!

and a progressive movement that threatened to withhold support if we didn’t get our exact demands.

Hahahaha…”our exact demands”! Wow.

Now is not the time to become pussies.

Speaking only for myself, I will never vote for a Democrat again for the foreseeable future. You don’t reward someone, or a group, who has sold you out so thoroughly and completely. The Democratic party doesn’t represent me or the things I care about. I’m not voting for them.

We now have National Health Care. Finally. The job is to make it better.

Again, we don’t have national health care. We have enforced health insurance. Sign everyone up to take their money and raise copays up to $1k. Don’t like it? Too bad, you’re mandated to stay with us.

These folks can’t tell shit from apple butter.

Exactly right. I look forward to our awakening when we realize, both sides play for the corporate team. It’s basically one party with 2 sides and for us ‘thinking’ ordinary Americans, we have no party anymore, both have been stolen, bought and mutated into coporate ‘brown shirts’.

I’m done voting, I’m done giving money, we can’t help our country by continuing the insanity of trying to get our current system UN-corrupted…never gonna happen.

I’ll be there if we put together a reform party of some sort, until then I’ll just keep lurking and waiting…

I live in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Lots of Canuck snowbirds.

I have YET to find one who doesn’t like their system. And I make it a point of asking.
There’s a freebie bluegrass jam at a Bojangles near me. I pick a little and I go there to listen. I would up sitting across from a couple from Ontario. When I found that out, I asked the husband how they liked the Canadian system. Boy, did I get an earful!

Hand slapping on table, in HARRD-driving 4-4 time, :o) :

“Every word you hear on FoxNews about the Canadian Healthcare system is bullshit!”

Would it have been too difficult for Obama and the dems to get on that pony and ride it? To keep coming back to the FACTS of “socialized medicine”, and making their case for, at the least, a choice?

Instead, Obama killed single-payer and the Public Option like they were a couple of 4-foot Timber Rattlers he found in the white house laundry hamper.

He wasn’t forced into this. He did it to placate the fatcats, and just as he pulled the plug on the Dorgan amendment for the same reason, it’s arrant horseshit to try to cover his butt by saying “it couldn’t pass”.

He didn’t even try. The least he and the dems could have done was campaign hard for single payer and then come down to a good, strong, public option THAT was very doable, if they had wanted to do it.

Insurance companies making a profit? I am not as exercised about that as you seem to be. But, yeah, I want to control them and when the politics are right I might take them out.

That’s nice. You want to control the insurance companies, so you cheer on a bill which will grant them at least 2% of everyone’s annual receipts as if it were some kind of victory.

You are also not “exercised” about insurance company profits, so I presume you don’t mind if they use the additional profits they will be making thanks to the mandate to buy the votes of a few politicians, so they can evade whatever “control” you would hope to impose upon them?

jlamkin didn’t say that the answer was to start a new party – it was you who suggested it. But since you have, I will say it. It’s time for progressives to start a new party! We supposedly have a democratic republic except that we have neither a democracy nor a republic. Oh yes we vote, but we vote in a hurricane of PAC funded ads meant to confuse the public. So people vote not knowing what they are voting for because they don’t know who or what to believe. As a progressive, republicans certainly don’t represent my views, but at the same time democrats fade left then go right every election, so they don’t represent me either. In fact, the president in this last election completely misrepresented his position regarding his “will” to undo the corporate and special interest stranglehold on Washington. It is nearly impossible for a new party to get on the federal ballot in all 50 states and takes millions of dollars to do so. So I’m left without representation – my voice and those of progressives like me gets labeled “fringe” or “like teabaggers” by my so called democratic brethren. Then after we’ve had no influence on something as important as health care, we are expected to rejoin the democratic party, hold hands, and sing Kumbiya while singing the praises of our great leader who gave us this historic mandate to buy overpriced insurance. Give me a break. YES, progressives need a NEW PARTY. We need representation. We need a vote that matters and that fits our values.

Right on, jakegittes!

Think of it. Allegedly, the idea of having a health plan in the first place was to make it more affordable and reign in costs. But, noooo!

Obama wouldn’t even allow the slightest competition from a shitty public option.

It also proves that when he wants something, man, he goes to the mat for it. I think he has no problem if people think he’s weak. Good cover for him so blame is deflected to whoever. Republicans, Progressives, Blue Dogs, it doesn’t matter to him one bit.
In the end, he gets what HE/corporations wants.

Keep preaching, sucker.

It’s easy to “get it done” when you sellout, behind closed doors, to the powers that be.

Just look at the dude’s campaign contributors. They’re getting exactly what they paid for.

You wanna go along with people like Rahm Emmanuel, playing you for the f’n retard you are? Have at it.

I’m done, and so are a lot of other liberals.

The power establishment finds it to more than useful to pitch the left’s numb-nuts against the right’s teabaggers. Failure to recognize the overt incitement by the Media is a monumental failure of introspection on our side.

You are being played, every fucking day by the Power Establishment, and refuse to even consider that that is so.

Think, step back from the gruel they feed you every day, ask yourselves qui bono?

“He knows he can give a good speech and people will love him.”

Not anymore.

Does it sound like we’re negotiating here? It’s a solid bet that all of us who are critical of him on this thread voted for him and were delighted when he won, and won big.

Now? I won’t send him a dime, and will do all I can to limit him to one term of his “centrist” crap.

We saw him as the saviour of the party, and not unreasonably, considering how bloodily and astronomically-expensively wrong, were Bush and the republicans, and how well Obama spoke of the change that we need. But he’s squandered more political capital, and gotten less for it, than any president I can think of. At the rate he’s going, people are going to be coming out of the woodwork to run against him in 2012.

Why not?

“Who were the big winners on Wall Street yesterday? Hospitals, drug companies, and some insurance companies.”

I believe that’s the 8-ball in the side-pocket. :o)

Come on, Obama is not the Clintons. He may have to deal with the Clintons’ residue in the form of Larry Summers and Wall Street. But he can only do so much and frankly the democratic congress is lame. In fact there is little support for him in the Senate a la Schumer et.al. So Obama does what he can.

Dream on.

The reason so many Progressives heard what they wanted to hear instead of what he was actually implying during Obama’s campaign is because the media kept hammering home how liberal he is.
Hell, MSNBC still labels him liberal. And Fox, they continue to call our Manchurian Neocon variations of a left wing Socialist radical.

Ha! Ain’t that a kicker?

You can try to dance your way around it but if Obama did not think Summers were worthwhile to listen to, he (Summers) wouldn’t be in the WH.

I have to laugh as I see you trying to justify how Obama is not at all like the Clintons when he is implementing the same policies or worse.

How does that kool-aid taste these days?

But the fact that both are owned by the same power brokers, leaves no one here to take a pause and connect the dots?

No wonder we’re getting shafted, when intelligent people can be so easily manipulated.

Late Monday night sales and success rate of trials figures for a range of OTC drugs that were introduced from early 2009 thru early 2010 were released in a little noticed press release by Graft,Corrupt and Associates.

The success of these OTC drugs was claimed to be unqualified. American healthcare industry sources indicate these OTC drugs will be monitored as to how this segment of OTC drugs performs on sales/results going forwards.

This class of drugs is known as PCTMS *.

The performance of this drug class has been outstanding according to American healthcare industry sources. Many of us likely know people who successfully use these drugs.

The press release did not disclose actual sales results breakdowns by product or manufacturer but gave indication that the results were viewed as “substantial and of long term benefit” by leading American healthcare insurers and health industry giants.**

*PoliticallyConfusedThwartedMadeStupid

** You have just read a snark attack — you can smile now ;->

Unfortunately this appears to be the worst time for progressives to found a third party, or even to join the one which exists for them right now — the Green Party — because they are doubtless still celebrating the Democratic Party “victory” for “health insurance reform” which occurred on Sunday. I fully expect the victory parade to continue all the way up to the point where they discover that nobody else will be voting for their candidates in November.

Regardless of the health care benefits, the evil corruption, the backroom deals, the lies, and deceitful manipulations from Democrats to FORCE this health care crap upon Americans who do NOT want it has AWAKENED tax paying citizens to all the disgusting, underhanded manuevers politicians will stoop just to line their pockets and get favors for their VOTES!

Tax paying citizens are angry that Obama, Reid, and Pelosi TOTALLY DISREGARD our opinions, and ready for them to leave the administration! Look out because this fight is not over, and we WILL start voting them out in November!!

It’s clear you’re going for balance but there is no policy of Obama’s which comes to mind that has a worse counterpart during the Clinton administration. Sure, Obama didn’t bring back the hot potatoes of Rubin or Greenspan but Summers, Geithner and Bernanke are just as adept at their roles as shills and people are not policies. Certainly Obama by maintaining the Bush status quo as opposed to the Clinton era of attempting to address some Reaganisms we have significantly worse policies in a wide range of areas. Problems where no attempts have even been suggested to fix Bush’s serious lapses in judgment.

Not the same, worse.

In British Columbia doctors and specialists are private contractors who perform services under a single-payer system. Some hospitals are publicly owned and some are owned and run by other entities like the Catholic church. Reimbursement rates are set through negotiation. Doctors are not allowed to perform services covered by the provincial insurance plan privately.

It works pretty well. Costs are held down because there is unified pricing and less duplication of facilities and services. Is it perfect? Absolutely not – mostly because of attacks on the system by right-wing politicians once they take power. But Canadians love their healthcare system, as poll after poll says. Not even the ReformaTories dare even mention eliminating this system.

Everyone, down to the poorest homeless person in the province, gets first-class healthcare when they become sick.

That’s complete bullshit, sir. In Canada, if you need a gallbladder operation, you get it as soon as possible. Period. Provincial finances have nothing to do with whether you get the operation or not because they must pay the bill, by law, even if they run a deficit and are forced to borrow.

The procedures that are delayed due to rationing of hospital space, etc, are non-lifethreatening procedures like orthopedic surgeries.

Try to be accurate when slurring he Canadian system. It has it’s faults, but very few Canadians would trade their system for the American one. The ones who would have enough $$$ to get their healthcare concerns treated anywhere. For average people, the Canadian system is, literally, a lifesaver.

The Welfare Bill, the repeal of Glass-Steagall, NAFTA, the Telecommunications Decency Act, the bombing of Serbia, to name four.

Is there a website that systematically catalogs and documents all the lies told by everyone with political power, politicians or otherwise. Actual quotes and/or video/audio clips would be terrific.

If there isn’t perhaps FDL could organize such a system?

What, you think Obama and the dems can keep their losses to “moderate” this November?

I think we’re gonna get tsunami’d.

Another 8-ball in the side pocket. :o)

Lovvve hearing about the Canadian system from Canadians, instead of from Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck.

Don’t be strangers, you guys. :o)

There’s that “He can only do so much” line. Says who? Case in point: Gorbachev did a heck a lot more with a heck of a lot less, than this one ever will, ever.

Mad because people didn’t get what they wanted? What are you talking about. Progressives/liberals got nothing out of this bill. The whole “pony” meme is utter crap. And the only group I saw getting pressure from the WH was progressives. If the DINOs had been pounded as hard as the progressives I think there would have been a PO.

And the whole 100 years argument? I was not aware the US government had been trying for 100 years for such a bill. No one is a “pussy” about this; but you can bet that this matter will become so toxic after people learn what the bill entails that any reform on the matter will not happen.

Still learning? What are they learning? Did they just enter politics? I thought some of these people had been around for years.

God, the amount of cognitive dissonance by many people on the “progressive” side is scary.

There’s a fellow who has written with pointed accuracy on the folly of expecting the Dems to do anything other than what they are doing. This chap’s moniker is RichM.

I collated a number of his comments a few years back from a discussion group we both participated in. At the time I called it, “47 Reasons to Avoid the Democratic Party”, or something like that.

I’ll repost it here in segments.

Hat’s off to Mr. Mynick. We’re still spinnin’ our wheels on the Dem-Pub merry-go-round here in The Homeland.

1) The Democrats are just a faction of the enemy — not allies in any sense. They are not the “lesser evil;” they are an auxiliary subdivision of the same evil. They have betrayed us beyond all possible reconciliation, and are more truly allies of the Republicans than they are “friends” of ours.

2) It’s just a fallacy to believe that the Democrats can somehow be transformed into a political force defending the interests of the broader public. That’s not what they are. That they dare posture as the “party of the people” is an insult to our collective intelligence. In reality, they use this tattered & tired popular image to collude with the rightwing, confuse the public, & sell us out at every turn.

3) I encourage you to rethink your well-intentioned support of Democrats. (The writing of Howard Zinn is useful, in this connection.) The history of the Dem Party is one of deep partnership with Republicans, not of genuine opposition. The ballyhooed “rivalry” is just on the surface — essentially, just a deception. The Dems were full co-partners in building the military-industrial complex and the national security state; in inflicting criminal wars in SE Asia & Latin America, etc etc. And since 2000, they have outdone themselves in shameless unprincipled collusion.

4) This is a party ready for the dustbin of history. The only “help” we should give them is helping them get there. We should focus on laying the groundwork for a party that genuinely represents our interests, not helping to resurrect a disgraced & decaying enemy.

5) The Kuciniches and McKinneys are different from the Hillary types — but there are compelling reasons not to get too excited about them, either. First of all, they are used by the party as a “Left decoration,” simply to keep potential left defectors in tow. Secondly, the party power brokers will NEVER in a million years let the Kucinich-McKinney faction have any real power.

6) In other words, the progressive Dem faction is cynically used as a marketing tool by the national party. They are dangled before your eyes to make you think that the Dems are still the “lesser evil” (since the Republicans offer no such Left decorations).

7) But the real face of the Democratic Party is revealed, for example, by the way they had police drag people out of the 2004 convention for wearing anti-war tee-shirts. Or by John Kerry, who tried to pretend during the entire campaign that his connection with Vietnam was just that he “served” — trying to hide the fact that he’d been an outspoken OPPONENT of a criminal war.

8)In other words — don’t be fooled by the existence of a few decent Dems. They make no real difference in the overall alignment of the party, and will never be internally influential. They are a distraction.

9) Taking over” the party is a naive illusion. Both parties are dominated and driven by the interests of huge corporations and plutocrats. Neither gives the slightest hoot about the well-being of the general public — which, as both of them well know, is utterly defenseless, politically. Both parties regard the public as a lamb to be fleeced on behalf of their (the parties’) patrons. This condition is non-negotiable & not subject to alteration by ordinary well-meaning people.

10) Both parties represent little more than the will of giant oil, banking, media and defense corporations. The only way they differ is in marketing strategies, target populations, rhetorical style, & external fluff.

11) You make the oft-cited argument that the Republican Party was “taken over.” This is not quite true. The Republicans were always the party of Wall Street & Northern manufacturing. The Democrats were the party of the Southern slaveocracy. When the national Democrats defied southern racism by passing the Civil Rights Acts in the mid ’60′s, the southern states bolted, destroying the Democratic coalition. The Republicans profited from this by adapting to southern tastes, values, & religious/cultural conceptions.

12) In other words, neither party is particularly virtuous, and both are merely fronts for coalitions of big-money interests. The Republicans weren’t virtuous before they merged with the Religious Right out of self-interest, and they aren’t virtuous now. The Democrats weren’t virtuous when they were allied with Southern racists, and they aren’t virtuous now. Virtue has nothing to do with it.

13) Together, the 2 parties form a governing structure that responds only to the needs of American capitalism. If you go to the Dem Party “pooh-bahs” and say, “I have some nice ideas for peace, housing, environment, and education,” they’ll laugh in your face. If you go and say, “I have a $10 million donation for you from ExxonMobil, if you just relax a wee little regulation about mileage standards,” they will say, “Please come into my office. I believe we can do business.”

14) The point is that both US parties are big-business parties, responsive ONLY to the needs & desires of corporations. The personnel of both parties are tightly linked to lobbyists. Both parties are stuffed to the gills with consultants, fund-raisers, careerist apparatchiks, connections in the MSM, & so on. All together, this forms an institutional structure that is completely unresponsive to the needs and aspirations of ordinary people.

PART ONE

15) When you try to sell the feel-good idea of “Let’s take over the Dem Party,” you’re in effect proposing a project that ignores the true nature of the Dem Party. This is too big a thing to overlook. The far right was able to take over the Republican Party because that kind of alliance was always very much in the nature of the Republican Party anyway. It was compatible with, not contradictory to, the big-business nature of the Republican party. Forming an alliance with fascists, racists & religious zealots ADVANCED the big-business agenda.

16) But your idea of taking over the Dem Party — & presumably using it as a force for defending the interests of ordinary people against the depradations of the giant corporations — is diametrically at odds with the true corporate nature of the Dem Party. That’s why there is precisely zero chance that it can be done. (And in fact, if you tried to do it, and you started having any slight success, your “friends” in the Dem Party would move against you — just as they gave the cold shoulder to Feingold last week, just as your creepy Congressman Rahm Emanuel has moved against real progressive candidates in Illinois, & as the Dem poo-bahs barely tolerated Kucinich’s antiwar positions in 2004.)

17) Do you understand the difference between a nice feel-good movie like Mr Smith Goes to Washington, and the far uglier reality of how things actually work in Washington? A Dennis Kucinich can win only in a feel-good movie — only in your (or my) dreams.

18) But outside of dreams, it’s a matter of consultants, corporate donations, favorable mainstream media treatment, approval of career party apparatchiks, and so on. A candidate that has the media against him, the military against him, and corporate American against him — is not even a faint possibility.

19) To ween liberals away from their addiction to Democrats, an immense shift of consciousness is required; this is not yet nearly in place. I think that everyone who does understand the mechanisms that make the Dem Party so pernicious should try to transmit this understanding whenever possible. If you are a writer, a film-maker, someone in a position to spread political ideas, I think this kind of thing should be done. If you simply have friends and family with whom you can exchange ideas, I think discussing the rottenness of Democrats whenever possible is an important activity.

20) One of them is this: there are concepts involved in understanding just why the Democrats are not a potential vehicle of change (& in fact, are a primary obstacle to it). There are concepts involved in understanding just what the Dems’ real function in the mechanism of society is. These concepts, and the relevant supporting history, are not obvious. Some of them are counter-intuitive. They must be studied & learned before one really gets the idea, and as of right now, most people — even most opponents of Bush — do not remotely have the conceptual basis for understanding them.

21) Even on a board like PI, there is way too much reflexive fondness for Democrats. People talk about “taking our country back,” or “taking our party back,” or “working within the party to bring about change,” etc. This all reflects continued illusions in the Democrats — even if the person who says it is “nice” and “sincere.”

22) The Democratic Party is one of two big business parties. Together, the 2 parties own a complete monopoly of the political system, & they use this monopoly to maintain ruling-class dominance. To believe that the slightly-less-evil of these parties can ever be a tool for freeing the great majority of the population from ruling-class control — is utterly ludicrous. One can only accept such nonsense if one is brainwashed (as all of us in this country are, from birth), then refuses to open one’s eyes.

23) Let me try to rephrase it one more time, to try to get the absurdity across: Maintaining a belief in Democrats means you expect that a big business party whose function is ensuring continued ruling-class dominance, is going to fight to keep you safe from the depredations of this ruling class. And it means you are ignoring all the history that demonstrates beyond any doubt that Democrats will not do this.

24) Real change can’t come until people cease nurturing illusions in Democrats. And when large numbers of people finally get angry enough to throw the Democrats overboard, the time for change will be nigh.

25) The real danger of voting for a Democrat doesn’t come from the physical act of pulling the lever (or pressing the Diebold key , to update that old phrase). It comes from the perpetuation of illusions, which in turn, tends to promote the undeserved & unfortunate general sense that the public is reasonably content with the choices that it’s offered.

26) Conversely, a mass defection from the Dem Party would be a development of the greatest importance; it would represent a popular repudiation of the official political setup.

27) What’s to be gained by clinging fearfully to a party as demonstrably spineless and corrupted as this one?

28) If you look at the last 5 years (and actually, at the last 40), what additional proof could you require of the worthlessness of the Dem Party? How could they possibly have accomplished less? Their “big success” was that Clinton won twice — and he gave away the store to the corporations, supports the Iraq War, and now spends all his time at Daddy Bush’s vacation homes.

PART TWO

29) By arguing for “saving” the Dem Party, you are encouraging people in the illusion that staying inside this society’s traditional institutions will allow ordinary citizens to make far-reaching & fundamental changes in the way society is organized.

30) This simply cannot be. Our society is the way it is, precisely because it has been organized to function in the interests of a narrow slice of the population at the top. By definition, a “traditional” institution in this society (like the Dem party, or the media) is PART of the very machinery that permits society to function like this. These institutions work to maintain the social order — not to change it. They are against meaningful change.

31) Aside from the New Deal, the Democrats have never been allies of the “little guy.” They’ve merely pretended to be this. The history of the party, if you subtract out the New Deal (and this was a special case, because it was required to save the capitalist system from major social upheaval), is quite undistinguished, & frequently despicable. The party started out as the political arm of the Southern slaveocracy. It was represented by corrupt big-city machines like Tammany Hall. It won elections by holding the allegiance of southern racists until the mid 1960′s. It was in office when the CIA and national security state — some of your personal favorites, I believe! — came into existence in the late ’40′s. It was more responsible for Vietnam than the Republicans were. What the hell is the attraction of a record like this?

32) And there has probably never been a party in all of history more spineless and impotent than the Democrats of the last 30 or so years. They back little Bush at every step. You know this as well as I do.

33) It’s not the case that the “the Democratic Party has been infiltrated.” Rather, they are, and have always been (except for the special case of the New Deal & its political sequelae, aka Medicare) a faction of the enemy. They play a highly treacherous role in the system — that of the common man’s false friend. They have not been infiltrated — they are simply a degenerated institution that has generally served elite interests by pretending to be “the party of the people.”

34) Not only is it wrong to fight to save them — the truth is, no progress can be made until the Democratic Party has been completely discredited & abandoned. It it nothing but a Pied Piper that leads people off into directions where they are guaranteed to be impotent in terms of challenging the status quo.

35) They want “progressives” to be toothless, gutless, polite, and quite harmless to the powers that be. That’s what the Democratic Party is — the social mechanism charged with ensuring that even people enraged by the status quo can only find political expression via a “party” whose real mission is to cripple, frustrate & defang them.

36) It’s like a big machine: into one end, you feed millions of people who might potentially support radical change. You march them through the Democratic Party, and out the other end comes people who are tamed, docile, & politically disoriented. They might want universal health care & major cuts in defense spending, so they get seduced into supporting the Kerrys & Hillarys based on cheap lines about “progressives focused on the common good.” And in a twinkling of an eye — they find themselves sold out by these cynical charlatans.

37) As you so accurately put it, the whole M.O. of the Democratic Party is not about being on our side, but about convincing us that they’re on our side, without even seriously discussing just what that might entail.

38) Right now, “our” (ie, the broad public’s) general perspective is not valid. In general, people don’t even understand where the problem is really coming from. Many think it’s just Bush, or just the Republicans, or just this group of Republicans, etc. Some think it’s the 2-party system; some think it’s the underlying foundation of our society & economic system — ie, capitalism. And even among those who think it’s capitalism, there are differences of opinion about how a better system could be implemented.

39) If one’s fundamental analysis is wrong, most action based on that analysis will also be wrong. Suppose you think the whole problem is just Republicans. Then it is logical to work for the Democrats in the next election. But if your analysis is wrong, working for the Democrats will not help — even with the best intentions in the world, and tons of practical action.

40) The game changes when large numbers of people begin to develop an accurate shared analysis of where the roots of the crisis lie. Then it’s time to start planning practical action. Only then will it have the power that comes from a valid underlying perspective.

PART THREE

41) Right now, we are limited to well-intentioned but largely impotent protest. The individual protests are scattered and uncoordinated. Anti-war groups, labor groups, environmental groups, independent media groups, 3rd party groups, honest election groups, 9-11 truth groups, etc etc are all working separately. This, despite the fact that they all have the same enemy, and largely common interests.

42) You are passively going along with what a corrupt power structure wants you to do, much like German citizens in the 1930′s.

43) Our leaders are murderers, looters and destroyers. Right now they are concentrating on killing Iraqis, but they will come for us next. In all of this, the Democrats are their partners.

44) There is a long established history that richly illustrates that political parties which have become grotesquely corrupted CANNOT be “reformed.” This entire line of thought is a waste of time and energy — and we don’t have that much time.

45) You say, as an excuse to continue supporting Democrats, “I think we’ll all be too afraid to trust that our votes won’t be thrown away..” Do you imagine your vote is NOT being thrown away when you vote for a Democrat? Even a contemptible weasel like Kerry, whose policies were 98% the same as Bush’s — if you voted for him in Ohio, the Republicans quite likely literally threw out your vote — and Kerry himself didn’t even have the balls to demand a serious inquiry into it! How is voting for someone like that NOT seeing your vote thrown out?

46) To know the first thing about politics is to know that primaries and general elections are not decided by “the people.” They are decided by media propaganda and official opinion makers. How do you suppose Kerry won the nomination? Because the media told people that he was the only “electable” one.

47) Most people are too ignorant or frightened to vote on the merits of positions and issues. For the very same reason that people like you remain in the Democratic Party (ie, it’s “practical;” only major-party candidates “can win,” etc), most people will only vote for candidates that the media tells them are “electable.”

These above 47 “reasons” are a collection of quotes by internet denizen RichM. Perhaps he’ll show his head here and give permission to others to spread these accurate quotes all round. More relevant now than ever.

FINALE’

These are intended to sharpen the Dems’ message, defining what they stand for and how they’re different from Republicans.

1. “We Surrender.”

2. “Please don’t yell at us, we’re frightened.”

3. “Would you like us to roll over on our backs now, or do you prefer that we remain on our knees?”

4. “Let’s bomb Iran.”

5. “We stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the President.”

6. “We stand for rule by a kinder, gentler military-industrial complex.”

7. “What’s good for MobilExxon, Citicorp, and Northrop-Grumman is good for America.”

8. “If you like venal cowards and betrayal, vote for us!”

9. “Please don’t ask us to stand up to the Republicans. They get very angry if anyone opposes them — and it’s really scary!!

Is that all of Canada or just Ontario?

When can we expect Food Reform, Shelter Reform, HDTV Reform, Wii Reform, PS3 Reform. Frankly, work is overrated…just gimme free stuff.

You got me. I’ve never seen such a concerted attempt to deny the obvious. It feels like back in 2003 fall when it was so obvious to anyone with ears or eyes or a brain that BV$H was hell-bent on going to War with Iraq. Hell, it was obvious the day he swear the oath in 2001 Jan. I wrote just that in my predications for him that day. No surprise. I have to admit though I got Obama wrong for the same reasons so many today still cannot see what this guy really is. Because, they don’t want to. It won’t change anything. The Mass. plan this is a carbon copy of this bill is just about bust 3 yrs. out and this bill is even worse in that way.

Jon, you got it wrong.

The Democrats didn’t water down a bill from what they really wanted to this because they were afraid of Republicans accusing them of being socialists.

This is the bill the Democrats in power wanted and they used the excuse of the Republicans intransigence to explain why it wasn’t more progressives.

Obama never wanted a progressive bill. He always wanted an Eisenhower Republican type bill.

Why should you have to fight for something every other wealthy nation has? Why do you have to mail, phone and march, in order to get politicians to do what is right?

Particularly after you already went to the polls in 2008 to put Democrats into power to get real health care reform, and not this corporate windfall. Obama and Dems were running, after all, against lobbyist-written bills, against the corporate-friendly Republicans who had already given away the store to the health insurance and pharm industries in 2003.

I even think they deliberately demoralized their progressive base so they can continue their republican policies without the left having the energy to fight them.

I don’t think there’s any question about their reasoning. But I think the left’s response is going to be to bring down the Dems by voting third party, or Republican just to clear these Dem pols out of office for the time being, and run real populist candidates next time around.

IF a majority wants REAL healthcare, and not insurance crap, why would you or anyone else need to stand on the Whitehouse lawn with picket signs?

You couldn’t do it if you wanted to.

The White House has gotten injunctions to prevent protesting groups from getting too close to the grounds. Cindy Sheehan and Code Pink is one example. Sheehan has been in jail for days for getting too close to the line. She just got out today.

Open you eyes. Liberals have no voice and no place in today’s Democratic Party.

Human beings have no place in today’s Democratic Party.

“Any healthcare bill I sign will have a public option.”

He said it. Here’s the quote: “That’s why any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans – including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest – and choose what’s best for your family.”

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Weekly-Address-President-Obama-Says-Health-Care-Reform-Cannot-Wait/

Oops.

Gap in health care law’s protection for children: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jYnajhWrPEXihcCrpRNfUKN7rN-AD9EKO82G2