On the House floor today, the Republicans focused on attacking the individual mandate. Just like they did yesterday in the amendments they offered to the Rules Committee. Just as John Boehner relentlessly did this week on Meet the Press.
Their rhetoric feeds into an extensive and well-funded network of right wing groups that stand ready to push anti-mandate ballot initiatives for 2010 that will go into overdrive upon passage of the health care bill:
GOP leaders hope at a minimum that they can energize conservative activists and turn the electorate against the Democrats in the crucial period after the law’s enactment, when both parties would be fighting to define it in the public’s mind before the November elections…Republicans also predict an instant movement to repeal the health measure should it pass. “It will be a spontaneous combustion throughout the country,” said Sen. Lamar Alexander (R., Tenn.)
There are already twenty state constitutional amendments moving through legislatures that could wind up on the ballot in 2010 or 2012. While Steny Hoyer may be confident that the courts will rule that federal law trumps that of states, that won’t affect the ability of Republicans to use the issue to spur voter turnout in 2010 — the same purpose served by anti-gay marriage ballot measures in 2004 and 2006.
The effort has accelerated just in the past few weeks:
- On March 10, Virginia was the first state to pass a national healthcare nullification law — through Democratic controlled legislature and Senate.
- On March 11, the Oklahoma House of Representatives passed their constitutional amendment, 77-10. It now heads to the Senate.
- On March, 16, the Missouri legislature approved their constitutional amendment, 109-46. It now heads to the Senate.
- On March 17, Idaho governor Butch Otter signed into law a measure requiring the state attorney general to file suit if the health care bill includes a mandate.
- Next Wednesday the Tennessee House will vote on their constitutional amendment, which has already passed the Senate, 21-1-5. The “5″ were Democrats who chose to vote “present.” Republican gubernatorial candidates Ron Ramsey and Zach Wamp are both backing it.
- Democratic legislators have also joined with Republicans to move the measure along in Iowa and West Virginia.
- In Alabama, Governor Reilly urged the Alabama delegation to vote “no” on the health care bill. All of the gubernatorial candidates are beings pressed about their positions.
- California’s amendment also prohibits the creation of “a single-payer health care system, unless the program is approved by the electorate by ballot measure.”
- A citizen-led effort for an amendment to the Colorado state constitution is now gathering signatures
- At the request of Richard Luger, Indiana Attorney General Greg Zoeller prepared a report and concluded that the bill would likely be found unconstitutional.
- The attorney generals of Florida, Virginia and South Carolina have said they will file suit arguing that the mandate is unconstitutional
As Larry Sabato says, being able to vote for the measure helped Democratic legislators who are “somewhere between worried and panicked” about the fall election and looking to distance themselves from the bill.
Republicans across the country have been the recipients of big money from health care lobbyists: $102 million to state political campaigns in 2008. In Florida alone, they received $765,000 in 2008 according to the New York Times. Now those interests are pointing them at the anti-mandate efforts initially spearheaded by the Goldwater Institute of Arizona, and then picked up by the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC).
ALEC is “a business-friendly conservative group that coordinates activity among statehouses. Five of the 24 members of its ‘free enterprise board’ are executives of drug companies and its health care “task force” is overseen in part by a four-member panel composed of government-relations officials for the Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association of insurers, the medical company Johnson & Johnson and the drug makers Bayer and Hoffmann-La Roche.”
While the red meat of the Arizona ballot measure is aimed at the mandate penalty, it also targets Medicaid obligations. Many of the state measures would also make it illegal for the states to adopt single payer systems.
In their infinite wisdom, Congress also allowed states to opt out of providing abortion coverage on the state exchange via ballot initiative, so many of these states may try for a two-fer. But the extensive infrastructure already in place to oppose the mandate is geared up and ready to go.
Of course, all of this would have been obviated if the White House had opted for their Plan B three weeks ago, which had no mandate, no exchanges or any need for abortion language (since it didn’t create any new bureaucracy and simply expanded programs already covered by the Hyde amendment). But with the health care bill looking to pass with all the raw material the GOP could want to fuel its GOTV efforts in the fall, the Democratic party could be walking into a 2010 buzzsaw.
There actually will be one critical difference between the anti-mandate and the anti-gay marriage initiatives: there were actually passionate opponents of the anti-gay marriage efforts. There will not be any swell of grassroots support to oppose a fine that the IRS collects.
That ought to present an interesting challenge for Organizing for America.
| State | Bill | Sponsor | Status | Legislative Required | Ballot Required | Type |
| Alabama | HB 42, HB 47 | Rep. Bentley; Rep. Gipson | Prefiled | 60% both chambers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Alaska | HJR 35 | Rep. Kelly filed for 2010 session | Filed | 2/3 both chambers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Arizona | Resolution HCR 2014 | Rep. Barto | On 2010 ballot | 50% both chambers (passed) | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| California | SCA 29 | Sen. Strickland | Filed | 2/3 both chambers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Colorado | HJR 10-1009 | Rep Acree | Filed | 50% both chambers | — | Resolution |
| Florida | HJR 37, SJR 72 | Rep. Plakon & 39 co-sponsors; Sen Baker | Prefiled | 60% both chambers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Georgia | HR 1086, HR 1107,
SR 795 |
Rep. Calvin Hill; Rep. Mills; Sen. Harp | Prefiled | 2/3 both chamgers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Georgia | SR 829, SR 830 | Sen. Hill | Filed | Majority | — | Resolution |
| Idaho | HB 391 | State Affairs | Governor signed into law | Majority both chambers | — | Statute |
| Indiana | SJR 14 | Sen. Krause | Filed | 50% both chambers | 2012 ballot | |
| Iowa | HJR 2007 | Rep Upmeyer | Filed | 50% both chamgers | 2012 ballot | Constitutional |
| Iowa | HF 2214 | Rep Upmeyer | Filed | Majority both chambers | — | Statute |
| Kansas | SCR 1626 | Sen Pilcher-Cook | Filed | 2/3 both chamgers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Kentucky | HB 307 | Rep Moore | Filed | Majority both chambers | — | Statute |
| Louisiana | SB 26 | Sen Crowe | Filed | Majority both chambers | — | Statute |
| Maryland | SB 397 | Sen Pitkin | Filed | 60% both chambers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Michigan | SJR K, HJR CC, HJR Z | Sen. Kuipers, Rep. Calley, Rep. Amash | Filed | 2/3 both chambers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Minnesota | HF 171, S 326, S 1282 | Rep. Emmer, Sen. Koch, Sen. Hann | Filed | 50% both chambers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Missouri | HJR 48, HJR 50, HJR 57 | Rep Davis, Rep Ervin, Rep Jones, Sen Cunningham | Passed House 3/16/10 | 50% both chambers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Nebraska | LR 289CA | Sen McCoy | Filed | 60% both chambers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| New Jersey | ACR 109, SCR 82 | Assemblymember Chose, Sen Doherty | Filed | Filed | 2012 ballot | Constitutional |
| North Dakota | Filed | 2/3 both chambers | 2010 ballot | |||
| Ohio | SJR 2, SJR 7, HJR 3 | Sen. Coughlin, Sen. Grendell, Rep. Maag | Filed | 60% both chambers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Oklahoma | HRJ 1054 | Rep Ritze | Filed | Majority both houses | — | Statute |
| Pennsylvania | HB 2053 | Rep Baker | Filed | Majority both houses | — | Statute |
| South Carolina | HJR 4181, SJF 90, SJR 1010 | Rep Scott, Sen Bright, Sen Rose | Filed | 50% both chambers | 2012 ballot | Constitutional |
| Tennessee | SB 3498 | Sen Beavers | Passed Senate 2/22/10 | Majority both chambers | — | Statute |
| Tennessee | HJR0745 | Rep Lynn | Filed | 50% both chambers | 2012 ballot | Constitutional |
| Utah | H 67 | Rep Wimmer | Passed House & Senate, enrolled 3/18 | Majority both chambers | — | Statute |
| Virginia | SB 283, SB 311, SB 417, HB 10 | Sen Quayle, Sen Martin, Sen. Holtzman Vogel, Del Marshall | Passed House & Senate, became law 3/10 | Statute | Became law without requiring governor’s signature | Statute |
| Virginia | HJ 7 | Del Marshall | Filed | 50% both chambers | 2012 ballot | Constitutional |
| Washington | HB 2669 | Rep Hinkle | Filed | Majority both chambers | — | Statute |
| West Virginia | HJR 103 | Rep J Miller | Filed | 2/3 vote in both chambbers | 2010 ballot | Constitutional |
| Wisconsin | SJR 62 | Sen Leibham | Filed | 50% both chambers | 2012 ballot | Constitutional |
Source: NCLS




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Lots of talk on the House floor today about the 18,000 new Internal Revenue agents who will be hired to enforce your health care choices. I expect that will be a 2010 GOP theme as well.
Yep, it will.
People will rightly hate the mandate, and the people that brought it to them, without Medicare For All.
They sure walked right into this one.
Recall Peter King’s glorification of the asshole that flew his plane into a IRS building killing an IRS agent. King used the incident as a springboard to slam the IRS and promote the flat tax (which favors the rich).
Ew….man oh man.
And I thought that it didn’t get any creepier than this:
That’s gonna chart higher than “death panels” and “snowflake babies.”
As well it should.
Just exactly does one go about suing Obama/Dem Leadership for political malpractice? /s
No way to save ‘em from themselves, Jane. It was the other side of valiant for you to try, but you can’t step between a person and the gun they have pointed at their own head.
we all did. i have no idea why we progressives gave this issue to the republicans with our silence and acquiescence.
Well, folks here weren’t silent.
One point about the fine: It’s not just a fine. If I’m reading the language correctly its the full arsenal of tools available to the IRS. That includes additional fines and jail time. The IRS jails people everyday. Would anyone like to be a test case? I suppose you or Keith Olberman can decide to not pay as a protest and we’ll see. Of course, in jail, you would get some healthcare so maybe it all works out…
I also hate to admit this but I’ll be rooting for the republican effort to at least overturn the mandates. I actually think, and hope, that the mandates do prove to be unconstitutional. I don’t think I’ve agreed with the Republicans since the civil war. I feel unclean rooting for them but I can’t stand IRS agents knocking on my door asking me to pay up…or else.
There are no rules any more. Why not root for efforts to overturn the mandates? I think it’ll be a popular cause.
Apart from locking them up, you can’t stop people intent on suicide.
After this last year, I’m no longer emotionally invested in the Democrats. I won’t be shedding tears at their demise. They had a unique opportunity to bury the fascists for at least a generation: all they had to do was enact progressive legislation, and the ‘pukes would have been toast for decades. But they decided to out-puke the ‘pukes, and by doing so, they helped cement Washington’s role as the enforcement arm of the corporatocracy.
I’m sure the CBO didn’t factor in the cost of enforcing the mandate and, believe me, it’s going to be huge and they’re going to have a hell of a time collecting from people rendered homeless by their enforcement actions.
~~~EDITED~~~, so there will be some death penalty prosecutions out of this and probably eventually a debtor’s prison, privately owned and operated — perhaps even by insurance companies.
Way to go Dems!
~~~ModNote: Please, oh please let us NOT go there.~~~
Agreed, but I’m worried about it and it’s a reason why I attempted to discourage a former student who asked me about working there.
This is certainly true. But would it be possible for Democrats to go on the offensive by pushing for things that were stripped from the bill like a real public option (which is the best response to the mandate issue) or actual cost controls? Is there any room for that sort of thing now, or has that ship sailed because they refused to include the ERISA waiver in the bill?
No kidding. We were screaming at the top of our lungs about it.
But the Booster Clubbers and the boy bloggers just blew us off, and they’re still blowing us off — or trying to.
It this their much vaunted jobs bill?
Just think: Obama and Rahm cut all those deals back on May 11 to avoid PhRMA’s and the AMA’s hitting them with tens of millions in “Harry and Louise” ads. Now they’re about to get hit with something much, much worse.
and the mandate is likely to NOT be revoked by the supreme court, but the corporations bankrolling the republican voters get even more pro-business guys in congress due to the dumb electorate
heads they win, tails we lose
These useless Democrats always say how much they are for the “elderly and seniors.”
Let these Democrats who rely on this voting bloc–seniors/elderly and explain the cuts in Medicare to them….
The Democrats led by Mr. Hoyer and Mrs. Pelosi highlighted that this would “help seniors” in a very defensive, if not patronizing tone tonight.
These a$$hole Democrats are trying to spin this it hurts me to even watch it….Even Bart Stupak seemed so fake tonight—Dennis Kucinich is a real a-hole too….
I hope somone beats Kucinich really good in the next election…..Kucinich should be a target of all those who do not like this bill…..Kucinich is a fake and a fraud and should never be forgiven until he is voted out of office…….
And don’t tell me that the Democrats are more “antiwar” or less into the police state of America than the Republicans either. The Democrats have done nothing to roll back the police state measures of the Bush administration or slow down the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. The Defense Budget under Obama is higher than Bush’s.
Either you are antiwar and against the police state or you favor it….The Democrats are as much into bombing innocent civilians as the Republicans and their phony outrage against Bush was more about politics than morality.
Does anyone know what the spin will be tomorrow regarding health insurance stocks? I expect they’ll spike, wondering if the supporters of this travesty have figured out how they can spin that yet.
Jane, I remember that cool Map of the States from my elementary school days.
The cool thing was the states “came out” of the puzzle, and you could throw some away if you wanted. [Or lose them under the bed until they regained their senses.]
I miss that.
PS – while channel-surfing past CBSjust now [remember, we're 6 hours "behind" the East Coast], I heard Katie Curic doing a puff piece on Rahm and his brilliance in getting health care “reform” passed.
oh exactly. the dems played friend to the corporations but they’re still gonna get voted out in droves, I think. But maybe they don’t care, because they know there’s a cushy lobbyist/(briber) job waiting for them?
golden parachutes, and all that
Hoyer is just touting the party line; like i said before, this whole thing is an example of “snatching defeat from the jaws of victory”; Obama and the Dems COULD have been real leaders but decided that campaign contributions matter more to them then pushing for what is the best for people, managing the ‘debate’ and rallying the people around them.
The mandates w/o a public option IS the achilles heel of this legislation.
I’ll ask on this thread an q I didn’t have answered on another.
When/who in the Senate is going to re-introduce the regulatory function taaken out of reconciliation because it wouldn’t fly per the byrd rule?
When is the antitrust rollback passed by the House going to be voted on in the Senate?
Boon to Hospitals and Drug Makers
“There are already twenty state constitutional amendments moving through legislatures that could wind up on the ballot in 2010 or 2012. While Steny Hoyer may be confident that the courts will rule that federal law trumps that of states, that won’t affect the ability of Republicans to use the issue to spur voter turnout in 2010 — the same purpose served by anti-gay marriage ballot measures in 2004 and 2006.”
___
Yeah, and it also serves the purpose of diverting dollars needed for health care into the pockets of lawyers pursuing this Quixotic bullshit. “Federal primacy,” while long established precedent — and beloved of Repu’ublicists when it comes to quashing state-level initiatives aimed at more stringent consumer and environmental protections — will be abandoned by the Boehneristas without the slightest waft of shame in order to throw sand in the gears.
Jane, a further question: what’s the timetable for when the mandates kick in?
There’s going to be some howling that can be heard all the way here in Hawaii when that first “deduction” appears on folks’ paychecks.
A further question:
By this I assume you mean voting on the state measure to block mandates?
Steny Hoyer is a fake….I cannot stand listening to this liar….
Bill Press and Ed Schultz love this guy Hoyer…..
Bill Press, Thom Hartmann, Rachel Maddow, Keith Olbermann, Randi Rhodes, Stephanie Miller—failed comic, and Ed Schultz must be creaming all over themselves right now. I mean drooling…..
As a liberal, I’m all for stopping these mandates. The government can’t outright force us to pay private companies for coverage. This bill.. err law is idiotic and is dead on arrival. I’m in agreement with the right wing that these things need to be stopped, we can’t be forced to pay for Aetna’s gold plated china sets.
Taxes are one thing, mandates are something else all together. Tax the vast majority of us at the rate we currently pay for our private insurance, so we no longer fuel private industry, but instead a public health care system. That’d be awesome, but no.. politicians need their kick backs.
Add Doggett to your anti-Kucinich diatribte, I’ll be doing everything I can to back whatever right wing nutball challenges him.
I asked those same questions on a couple of threads of the cheerleaders who came over to say that this was “a start” and now we needed to “get started fixing the other stuff/improvements.”
Uh, I’m still waiting for an answer. Perhaps the Easter Bunny will bring it when he shows up in a couple of weeks. It looks to me like that’s the only hope these folks have got.
And so it goes. Great precis. Thanks.
I don’t think Obama will mind so much being another one-term Democratic president. He’s already done his bit for the Republican party in many areas: wars, banks, and insurance. Good job, Barry. Way to go.
Liars, liars, liars—-Thanks to the Democrats that is!!!!
Democrats are the criminals here!!!!
Actually I don’t see why widespread popular revulsion at the mandate can’t be converted to a Medicare-for-Most movement. Also don’t see how the mandate is going to fly in the courts once challenged.
forget the mandate, forget health care, it’s springtime for terra attack and/or Iran War, sillies!
We citizens are what, 3/5 of a corporation now?
Thanks Dems.
i read that they’re actually formed as a “credit” on your tax forms, so you get the -750 dollars or whatever from your bill if you qualify (have insurance)
The mandate is detestable under the full set of circumstances, but there is little chance that it will not pass minimal Constitutional muster.
Where, please?
An opinion: As soon as people figure out that premium rises aren’t gonna slow, HI regulation and repealing the antitrust exemption are gonna start getting the traction they’ve always deserved. Without the pressure of tonight’s votes that wouldn’t have been possible.
Teddy, are you joking? [I couldn't stand to watch.]
“Also don’t see how the mandate is going to fly in the courts once challenged.”
___
Expect a decade of expensive time-wasting litigative jousting resulting in mixed outcomes.
Even with a fairly dedicated anti-Obama SCOTUS?
i just heard it from a second-hand source, but it sounds tricky enough to be believable
Here’s what Obama will do when he gets out of office: Golf.
We’ll see.
“I don’t think Obama will mind so much being another one-term Democratic president.”
I never viewed Obama as a “Democrat.” I don’t know what these people are, but, there are no “Democrats” in congress any longer.
There are Corporatists and Fascists in the U.S. Congress…..
The left/right paradigm is utterly meaningless at this late hour of the continued decline and eventual collapse of the United States as we once knew it. The so-called two-party system is long gone as well…..doesn’t matter at this late hour of the fall of America…..
When unions such as SEIU cannot see that this is a Corporate-Fascist Bill and attack members of congress who realize it is that, then the end of the nation is definitely closer than you think.
Any Union which supported this bill and so-called “liberal activists” who supported this should be tried for TREASON!!!! Treason against their so-called allies, but, no, the likes of DailyKos and Moveon.org and the women’s pro-choice groups all became wannabe power brokers….Ya know what? They are scumbags! They are the real Traitors to every liberal cause fought for since the 1960s and 1970s. Obama is a fraud who never fought for crap…..People who continue to support these jerks are stupid…..Anyone who still listens to MSNBC or “liberal talk radio” hosts is also stupid and apparently still does not get it.
http://www.sunjournal.com/node/798346
Obama’s on the side of his “opposition,” is the problem.
Then again let’s face it, Teh Evil assassinates actual progressive anybody.
Interesting I don’t think I have heard either Plantation Blanche or Halter saying anything about mandates.
Halter should jump on this before the Senate votes. I guess the MoveOn and unions wont let him.
Think practical, folks. Given this playing field, what are the most effective things we can now do?
Let the Democrats apply the mandate to SEIU Union workers…..
Applying black-and-white constructions to a world that is inherently gray is not a way of moving forward.
And of course those Nice Health Insurance Companies and Drug Manufacturers are just going to sit quietly and politely on the sidelines while these proposals meander their way through Congress?
Hmmm… Are you warning Dems about this or cheerleading for the GOP strategy, Jane? Either way, tonight you and your Teabagger allies lost. Get over it and try to be constructive and work to make the law better. Try to and defend it against these sorts of frivolous challenges so that healthcare is truly enshrined as an American right…but please don’t passive-aggressively encourage those challenges. If you continue to do so, you’ll just consign yourself to the dustbin of history as a megalomaniacal footnote during a moment of great advancement by the United States (a fall from grace that is well on the way, I might add).
In any case, it’s very satisfying to know that all your spiteful whipping against this bill failed completely. Now try to be a real Progressive again and work to improve what is now the law of the land.
Yeah I don’t think it actually matters whether it is or not. They never got a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, either. But the damage was done anyway.
Obama – community organizer who lived in a Mansion…..
Obama must be the first community organizer to ever live in a mansion….who really funds Obama?
The CIA? Perhaps….not anyone can become president….
Read what I wrote again and specify clearly what you don’t like…..
Some things are quite clear……contrary to your view……
Again, please rebut specifics…..
Bombing innocent civilians and committing crimes against the peace is pretty clear cut.
.
You’d have to be a frothing cultist to read this post and come away with that interpretation.
The bill will hopefully help many people. But it is also going to cause a lot of harm to a lot of people. The political landscape is no doubt going to change dramatically in its wake, and until you know how, there’s not much chance of making it better. Congress will do nothing meaningful until after the election — if then, because Obama will be running for 2012.
The crowing and grandstanding about “political victories”, and the indifference to those who will suffer because of what this bill does, is really disturbing. Reminds me of cheerleaders for the Iraq war.
For one thing, I am not completely anti-war because I do understand that sometimes war is a last resort when all other options have failed.
I am pro-choice. I’m also pro-death penalty, though much more limited in scope than what is being done now.
I am for gun control, but having grown up in around guns I also am for gun rights.
As I said, there are shades of gray. Flatly saying “either you are for this or not” doesn’t work when there are more choices than the binary 1 or 0.
Actually, it kept the public option alive about six months longer than what Obama and Rahm had planned when they made the move to give it away back in May.
And it also showed how non-righty legislators buckle and give in and therefore lose, whereas guys like Stupak get what they want.
Yes, there is pretty broad latitude in what can be done to regulate commerce under the Commerce Clause. I think there would be some major grumbling, but so far there is no way I see the Supremes not upholding the mandate and that Tenth Amendment crap the right wingers blather about is laughable; in Constitutional law circles those people are literally called “Tenthers”; if that brings to mind “birthers”, it should they both have the same level of credibility.
Thanks again, Jane for the best coverage anywhere during the weeks leading up to tonight’s health care vote.
Well, Jane is not a sellout like your pals are….Just saying….
I am glad you like and support these Corporate-Fascist “Democrats.”
Jane has been and continues to be spot on regarding these spineless, worthless, and utterly foolish well, out of some little respect anyway, those who continue to lie and say they are “Democrats.” Yes, these so-called “Democrats” deserve every last criticism they receive…..
If you do not like Jane’s criticism’s there are plenty of ass-kissing pro-Corporate Fascist Dem/Obama blogs you can go to.
America is still a free country, well not really, in which people can say what they want…..
Jane unlike you is not a sheep when it comes to having an original thought in the brain cells.
Futures down an irrelevent amount currently, insurance stocks will blast off on open.
http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/stocks/futures.html
Exactly. Tomvox doesn’t care about the uninsured, he just cares about punching a few hippies.
Yes, covering 32 million uninsnured is exactly like the Iraq war. Great analogy.
I am glad you favor the police state…..I don’t.
Go give your DNA sample right now to your local police department.
I think she was talking about the disingenuous carping…
Umm, isn’t Medicare tax a mandate? You work you are forced to pay it.
So no mandates, no FICA. No more Medicare or Social Security.
Cover, you’re looking for cover and justification for the atrocity you support because you know in your heart you were duped. Your self image can’t allow you to accept that you’re so easily led so you spew hatred at those who remind you of it.
You own this.
Mz. Hamsher, that was one tangled web you wove above.
I wasn’t sure along the weaving as I read, where you were headed.
This was a clue, but it, and the entire post did not prepare me for this:
And thus I knew I had a home.
My leige, my lady . . . proud to serve.
Never has a gauntlet been so softly served with such a reddening of the face once smacked.
And aside from all that allagory jive, damn, Mz. Hamsher, way to call shit for what it is.
Hey Norske, move your ass over, the foxhole’s fillin up with REAL patriots, and they got fresh ammo!!!
*G*
I don’t. And the fact that you ASSUMED I did simply because I chose not to address that particular point speaks more about what YOU think than it does about what I think.
Health insurance companies have already had their run-up. The only way to make money on the Obama-Stupak Pro-Sepsis Executive Order is to buy stock in coat hanger manufacturers.
I’m just wondering how they’re going to spin it. A lot of folks might be unsure about the details of the bill, but they can see a bill pass and then stocks of the industry that bill is supposed to regulate soar and put one and one together.
Wondering how they’re going to “contain” that.
It’s going to look really swell for our country when the IRS starts rounding up unemployed parents who can’t buy insurance or pay the fine. Maybe they can wear brown shirts.
Let the Democrats defend the individual mandates in their campaigns and see how well that goes over….
Let the Democrats defend the cuts to Medicare for Senior Citizens in their campaigns and see how well that goes over….
Actually where the states are on the strongest grounds to challenge the constitutionality of the bill is the issue of federal mandates on states. Uncle Sam can’t “commandeer” the state governments by directly compelling them to participate in the federal regulatory program.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_v._United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printz_v._United_State
I just text searched the Senate bill for the phrase “state shall”, 91 hits, unless its predicated on a voluntary choice on a state’s part (then the verb should be “may” and not “shal”) then items like this will be grounds for a lawsuit. For example…
(1) IN GENERAL- Each State shall, not later than January 1, 2014, establish an American Health Benefit Exchange (referred to in this title as an ‘Exchange’) for the State that–
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3590/text
If you want to argue about the argument, Take It Outside.
THOROUGHLY! No snark. *G*
FICA and SS are taxes (which no one questions), and they don’t go to any private entity, they go to the government.
That’s not really a fair comparison, IMO.
Well, Obama has built lots and lots of prisons since becoming president….Nobody likes to confront this reality but that is why Americans are known to be such dupes.
They don’t have to spin it.
At this point the lines are drawn, the suckers will find that fact easy to ignore, and then change the subject to something they’d rather think/talk about. I believe it’s called doublethink. Those of us who bring it up will be called the same shit they’ve been calling us for the last month.
They want us back to sing kumbaya, but only if we don’t make them uncomfortable.
gotta link to prove that claim?
Hey Larue, pass the ammunition!
18,000 IRS agents to make sure Americans write a check to Wellpoint and Aetna? How many feds are going to be hired to make sure Wellpoint and Aetna pay for the insureds’ medical treatments?
taxes are obligation to pay the government. Since “FICA contributions” are taxes on wage income (though the reconciliation bill’s adds capital income as well) and the 16th Amendment authorizes taxation of income “from whatever source derived”, Uncle Sam has every right to mandate you pay your taxes.
Where to begin? You tell Jane to ” try to be constructive and work to make the law better,” as if that is not what she and others here have been doing tirelessly for the past year or more. Getting rid of mandates that force people to buy lousy products from bloodsucking insurance companies is not “frivolous,” and I can see why this issue will be a political winner for the opposition, even if you can’t.
But keep on crowing about the great victory the Democrats achieved tonight. Jane was just pointing out how the mandate is a self-inflicted wound for the Dems, which it is. I’m afraid the Dems just bought themselves a whole boatload of trouble with this crazy-ass bill, so tomvox1, enjoy tonight. It’s going to be a hard next few months for you corporatist Dems, as the public turns against these onerous mandates.
Selise, I think you are overlooking a lot, and I’m not sure EXCATLY what SIUN meant, but I think she meant it in a good way.
Ergo? Due to an ugly and effed up bill that pisses off both right wing and DFH’s and libs’, progs and centrists we are gonna find ourselves as a country fractured politically as never before.
Any of those who can WOIK them fractions will have some leverage, but this system’s dead and done and no amount of reichwing righturds or centrists or lefty’s, socialists, libertarians, progressives or any one else in the spectrum can stop this runaway freight train from its corporate and facist self imposed self destruction.
Unless there’s a complete and immediate overthrow of the corporate state, we are doomed to run it’s rail like ghost riders in the sky ran the prairie.
/musicalanalogy
It’s a ‘mandate’ like every other tax is a mandate.
It’s not like being told you have to either give lots ofmoney to the private insurers, or less to the IRS.
I’m sure if you google you can find the difference between a “tax” and a mandate paid to a private corporation. Though sometimes it can be hard to find something so basic and simple.
A big problem; the 2010 electorate cui bono.
There’s not enough of benefit receivers on the blue side of the divide, plenty of receivers on the red side of the divide who will believe their “freedom” was taken from them.
I already have e-mails from Obama, NARAL, and Pelosi. Oh, yeah, I’m going to send lots of money. s/
Selise,friend, I have never ever aquiesed to any of this scam. Start with Hugh’s list and run down the gaummet of issues. All the ones that Dems unseated the Reps with and now are supporting. This is beyond nausiating. This is treason when the will of the people in a Democratic society is overuled by the corporate bought legislature.
That’s a bogus argument. Those are Bush’s prisons.
My first comment. Hello Jane and thank you for all you have done.
I am of the opinion that the Republicans will have great success ramming the mandate home as a Democratic plot against the people. I think it will reach way beyond the conservative base and the mainstream will be thinking that Democrats have “taken away their freedom” long before the mandate kicks in.
And since I’ve been a Democrat for a long long time I know how the Democratic leadership will handle it, poorly.
Um, I think the meme about people getting rounded up and arrested by the IRS for not paying the penalty is pretty specious; you are not going to be seeing that.
History tells us that your scenerio is MORE than possible, and why it would be moderated is beyond me.
Thanks for the ugly, it’s something many just don’t want to consider, and I’ve never understood that my whole life.
Life says, if you can think it, it’s happened and there’s proof for it, no matter how ugly the thought is.
That’s being forwearned and forearmed. To moderate it, that thought, of worst case? Eh, I’m now kewl with that.
This is the “Tenther” argument by 10th Amendment nutjobs; it is bogus and will not fly.
Why not? If it’s the law can they just drop it? If so, why bother to have the law at all? I’m not being a smarty I just want to know.
Answer: 0
no. the iraq invasion actually freed a nation from a tyrant, as opposed to delivering a nation to a tyrant. on a silver platter, i might add.
PW, I’m greatly surprised you believe in the false meme of the ads promises . .
The deal was to bring a mandate without any real reformation to get further campaign donations and support.
From facisct corporate america to our facist elected america.
That you’d even THINK of evoking a false meme as you did really, really surprises me.
Just keep doing what you are are doing Jane, but when writing your memoirs in 50 years time I hope you will realize that nothing you do or say on HCR was ever going to positively influence anything about anything until after this bill passed.
From now on the game is being played on a different board; one on which universal care is a baseline, and the argument is about how most effectively to deliver and pay for it.
The arguments we have been making on single payer, public option, etc are all the more compelling now, even to republicans, because from tomorrow on they are about lowering taxes.
You won. Get over it!
All that from just one dog?
Lowering which tax? The corporate one, direct to Wellpoint, or the Fed tax?
Both questions will go unanswered, as they are not in the plan.
And if there IS any legislative resistence, Obama is prepared to use Executive Signings to the benefit of the corporate entitlements.
Haven’t we progs accepted this, why aren’t we progs dealing with it and planning forward instead of asking futile questions that have no positive outcomes, that have already been proven broken in answer?
I don’t see how the Democrats could do that considering it was the Democrats that removed the public option and cost controls.
That would certainly be pretty brazen.
Dude, it’s like I said earlier:
AHIP will hold fire until they’ve gotten EVERYTHING they want. As soon as Obama’s helped them get it, POW, AHIP will stab in the back/renege on any remaining “deals.”
That’s all PW is saying.
Well, could you define the line where the people sit, and the line where the system sits in opposition to the people?
And then share with me why you have optimism?
Dude, it doesn’t matter what you or I think about the 10th Amendment. However, what the Supreme Court thinks about it does matter. That’s why I provides links to the two Supreme Court cases (and quoted one of them) on point.
Actually universal care is not the new baseline. Mandated purchase of lousy insurance company products is. Big difference. Capeche?
Good luck defending the mandate.
PRESIDENT BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA & THE CONGRESSIONAL DEMOCRATS CONTINUE TO LIE, LIE and LIE ABOUT THE REAL UNEMPLOYMENT RATES AND COLLAPSING ECONOMY IN AMERICA!!!
Real Unemployment 18 Percent – Will Stocks Falter?
By, Simon Maierhofer
Feb 05, 2010
The real numbers
“….Today’s headline numbers report was that the unemployment numbers, “surprisingly fell to a five-month low of 9.7%,” according to today’s government report…..In reality, unemployment spiked to an all-time high of 18%. Yes, 18%! This is the official number reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS)….The BLS publishes different sets of data on a regular basis. The main focus tends to be on the U-3 unemployment rate (currently 9.7%, seasonally adjusted)….U-3 is the “official” unemployment rate and illustrates total unemployed persons as a percentage of the civilian labor force. U-4 is another category that includes unemployed workers plus discouraged workers. A discouraged worker is someone who’s available to work but has stopped actively seeking for work….U-5 unemployment includes the number of unemployed workers, plus discouraged workers, plus marginally attached workers. A marginally attached worker is someone who is able and willing to work but is not actively seeking work….U-6 is as close to the real unemployment figure as government reporting gets. This number includes unemployed workers, plus discouraged workers, plus marginally attached workers, plus workers that are forced to work part-time because they are not able to find a full-time job. Put another way, it’s the most realistic picture of today’s job market as any…..According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of U-6 unemployed workers is 18% (not seasonally adjusted – 16.5%). This is the highest number of record….”
Recession relapse?
“….How do you define a recession relapse? How do you even figure a recession is over?…….There has been a huge disconnect between what’s happening on Wall Street and on Main Street. Since March 2009, the U.S. stock market (NYSEArca: TMW) has been steadily rising, as has unemployment. You’d expect stock prices to go up and unemployment claims to go down, but that hasn’t been the case…..When putting the pieces together, it helps to understand why stocks have been able to stage a relentless ten-month rally..…From October 2007 to March 2009, the Dow Jones (NYSEArca: DIA), S&P 500 (NYSEArca: SPY) and secondary indexes like the MidCap SPDRs (NYSEArca: MDY) and small caps (NYSEArca: IWM) have lost more than half their value…..Financials (NYSEArca: XLF) lost over three quarters of the market capitalization….In March, investor pessimism has reached an extreme of historic proportions. In fact, on March 9th, the Wall Street Journal made a case for Dow 5,000 and Goldman Sachs slashed earnings growth by over 37%.….”
http://www.etfguide.com/research/261/8/Real-Unemployment-18Percent-Will-Stocks-Falter?/
No he hasn’t; in fact if any prisons were built during the year he has been in office, they would have been speced and funded during the Bush Administration. Prison population actually just decreased nationally for the first time since the early 70s.
i must have missed that part. what i remember is the support for the hcan principles and acceptance of the mandated insurance policy model for about a year (until just the last few months).
Nearly impossible to read.
i’m still waiting for that link proving your prison claim.
prove it
The mandates may be ruled unconstitutional. They also may be tied up in court for a year or two before they get to the Supreme Court.
The irony, and maybe the hope of those who voted for it, is that it does not pass constitutional muster, and there is some insurance reform without the trade-off of mandates.
The mandate creates a very difficult legal question for both liberal and conservative judges. Who knows how a Supreme Court would vote? The left and right seem to hate it (for different reasons) so maybe a 9-0 decision against it isn’t out of the question.
my apologies.
Now that is an interesting perspective.
And the hell with mandates and taxes for a minute; what just happened to Women’s Rights?
They were just DIMINISHED. And guess what is going to happen to other people’s rights?
Spot Gold Prices Rise on Credit Warnings
By Andrea Tse
03/15/10 – 03:13 PM EDT
“…..York spot gold prices are rising in midday trading following warnings by Moody’s Investors Services that the U.S. is at risk of losing its esteemed credit rating unless the country gets its fiscal affairs in order. Spot gold prices are rising by $3.90, or 0.4% to $1,105.40 an ounce….”Sovereign debt credit rating apprehensions once again arose in the markets as the mid-March sessions got underway worldwide,” Kitco analyst Jon Nadler writes. “Such jitters lent fresh support to the precious metals complex overnight, however gains in gold were facing a stronger dollar, and the other side of the credit fears spectrum: that of China tightening in the near future…..”
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10703020/1/spot-gold-prices-rise-on-credit-warnings.html
The whole idea behind the public option fight was to make sure people had an alternative to paying a mandate to private insurance companies. You may not have liked it, it may not have been big enough or comprehensive enough for your satisfaction, but it’s not fair to misstate the intent of the action.
what does this have to do with the topic of this post? are you selling gold?
Can’t wait to read your memoirs in 50 years. Oh, wait, I’ll be dead.
Does it ever.
Thanks bmaz and macaquerman for the info on mandates vs. Constitution. I should have been clearer that I buy that stare decisis is on the side of allowing mandates to stand. My worry is that the courts got packed during the Bush years and I have zero doubt those Federalists will do whatever is necessary to hurt the Ds in elections, even if it goes against their espoused principles.
Because the Supreme court has consistently and repeatedly denied that argument and has taken to being fairly caustic about continually being presented with it. The same tact was tried against the New Deal, the Great Society civil rights legislation, Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. It is a dead loser.
The problem with this argument is that universal care is not really a baseline now. Universal insurance might be a baseline, but insurance does not guarantee payment on claims, which can be as depoliticized as you please.
No, you’re right, the HI lobby will be riding higher than ever before. Not a reason to stop fighting, quite the opposite. As I said downstairs, if things stop changing now we’re toast because the bill is evil, evil, evil. So we have to fight, with whatever tools we’re able to muster, including a public that’s about to get energized on these issues like never ever before…
nuthin but net!
Well, Kelly. I missed her saying that, so thanks.
And I’ll say, I disagree with YOUR thoughts.
There are no deals, or paybacks or whomps awaiting Obama and the Dem’s.
Obama was a corporate sleeper, brought in to do their deeds, and nothing else.
There ARE no promises issued by AHIP or anyone else for that matter, to cross Obama on.
Or Rahm.
You DO understand, my friend, the depth of deception and betrayal under way?
With all your life experiences, you know this, right?
The corporate system brought Obama to us, presented him, sold him, supported him, to get what they wanted.
And since he was elected, he’s delivered issue after issue, the best Republican President ever. And a PUB President could NEVER have delivered as good as Obama has, for the corporate needs and wants. Never.
You do know this, right? *G*
And that’s what I was asking PW about . . . you all know this, right? Corporate facism? Right? You capiche, yes?
Robert Reich has a piece up at HuffPo where he praises the bills’ passing but adds a caveat:
“The significance of Obama’s health legislation is more political than substantive.”
You bit your bippy this bill is not substantive. So much for those 30 million covered meme, I guess.
He explains that this bill is in the REPUBLICAN tradition, not in the Democratic tradition. Thanks, Bob. That’s what people on this blog have been saying all along. That’s why it’s scandalous that is was crafted by a Democratic White House and is now being greeted with Hosanna’s by the joyous progessive throngs on the internets and on the “liberal” mouthpiece MSNBC.
Things are getting curiouser and curiouser.
I’m sorry, can you say that using different words? Having trouble scanning your phrasing for some reason.
Huh? By numbers or percentages of population?
I thought we were the most incarcerated per capita nation in the world.
Meaning, we’d HAVE to increase numbers AND percentages to hold that title?
And aside from who’s right or wrong on any given numbers, would you NOT agree we are WAY TOO INCARCERATED, for all the wrong reasons, with all the populations aside from white, being the SUBJECTS of those incarcerations??
You puzzle me on this Bmaz . . . and I know you know your stuff . . . ???
You think this will actually help 32 million uninsured?
Wow, just wow.
As one of those uninsured, I can tell you that passing a law does not magically supply people money to buy insurance. Even with the subsidies most will not be able to afford it.
Great victory, 2% of my income for nothing.
I will show my anger in November.
If you think 32 million will be covered you’re smoking dope. That CBO forecast is based on assumptions Congress gave to it. It will never forecast accurately over 10 years, especially when it underestimates the rate of inflation of private insurance costs to begin with. Insurance costs are going to increase by 10% per year at least and will exceed general inflation by 7% per year. Since the subsidies will be indexed to the general inflation rate plus one, and later only to the general inflation rate, the result will be that the previously uninsured will rapidly be priced out of the market starting about two years after the exchanges take effect. At that point, the number of uninsured will start to increase again.
The Medicaid expansion in the bill won’t work either, because even though people will have the insurance, the reimbursement rates won’t let them actually find Doctors. By 2019, we’ll be lucky if 15 million of the uninsured are still covered and getting care. Since by then there will be a larger population of potentially uninsured than today, we are likely to end up with 40 million uninsured by 2019; if the present bill isn’t drastically modified.
I am saying exactly that. You missed my comments earlier, that ONLY the Democrats could deliver this Republican plan; the Repubs are gleeful that their fingerprints aren’t on it.
Wow, Selise, I must have a short memory . . .
I recall all along MANY a more outspoken Pup questioning all along the AHIP, OFA, and HCAN positions.
I was ONE of them along the way, but others laid out why and with facts and history and such.
I’ve only got links of about 700 worth to share, so you’d have to sort thru them from the bookmark folders I’ve saved.
But I’d send them to ya, if ya want . . . .
~~~EDITED IN MODERATION~~~
The Obama administration thinks that this healthcare bill will bring the economy back into better shape…..America’s credit rating is in the tank and the dollar is becoming worthless……to the point of being rendered worthless here……All of these things are connected……
This bill is a giveaway to the corporations for a reason——
~~~Flaming your moderator is unwise, to say the least.~~~
Whichever.
Did you mean this to be as snotty as it reads?
one dog, one cheerleader. canine americans have not yet mastered the fine art of the blockquote.
Is it possible you’re mixing the 10th amendment issue with the issue Twain was discussing here?
I don’t get how it could’ve been attmpeted with all those other New Deal programs when they didn’t have a penalty to begin with, so there’s no way there would jail time.
BTW, I agree with your sentiment that no one is likely to actually go to jail over the penalty, but I don’t get how this argument supports that.
That is quite illuminating.
What’s really pernicious about the four year delay in beginning the individual mandate is that I doubt anyone could have standing to challenge its constitutionality before it goes in effect. After all, who knows today whether or not in January 2014 they’ll be uninsured and thus subject to the mandate and its penalties.
So for the next four years, the Democrats get to play the pinata (and the Republicans get to play the kid with the stick) for imposing an individual mandate and doing nothing to make insurance affordable in the meantime. And then multiple lawsuits filed on the first business day of 2014 will make the whole exercise a waste of time and money… except for the insurance industry shareholders who’ll have benefitted from four more years of unregulated profits.
AAAAAAmmmmmennnnnn Brothuh!
Just a caution, WL. One thing I’ve learned about market news is that they report the price movements accurately, but they never really know why the price moves so they just make shit up basically. If you want spot gold prices you can get them here…
http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html
: )
True.
But now that the PO strategy has failed to accomplish anything noteworthy, can we please just go back to advocating for expanding Medicare either for All or incrementally, if we must accept a compromise?
The politics of it would be so much simpler and easier to communicate.
Pate? Stone ground wheat crackers? German whole grain mustard? Smoked PNW Salmon? WA Reisling? Capers and lemon wheels and some nice lemony and cilantro flavored creme fraiche?
Nothings too good for the mods.
*G*
evening, firegods
i don’t think i made any comment upthread about intent of the po fight.
only that i think we (progressives in general and here) blew it not to be a long time voice against the mandates from the start. i’m blaming myself for that one too.
wrt to how a po affects that opinion — i don’t think that a public option with costs higher than private insurance would have made the mandate any more acceptable to the public. although i do think there were (humanitarian) reasons to support it, things like competition and “keeping the insurance companies honest” were always, as far as i can tell, neoliberal bullshit based on a false notion of the benefits of market competition. but that’s a different issue than acceptance of a mandate to purchase insurance under almost any circumstance (any i can think of anyway).
It really is an eighth wonder of the world how dems can take a much needed effort, take out the most popular parts, put in the most unsavory parts, with all the power at their disposal to present the most FUBAR bill evah.
They deserve to lose even if gop does not deserve to govern.
Yes, I am also famiiar with kitco as well.
The bottom line–the economy is much worse than the idiot American News jerks tell ya…this includes the likes of Robert Reich and Paul Krugman who still deceive Americans about the economy and rarionlize and intellectualize stuff away.
Joseph Stiglitz will tell you the truth and that is why he is not on more shows discussing the awful and disastrous economy….He will tell more bad crap is on its way and fast.
No, that would be contrite. Brazen is already covered.
None. That’s the way change looks in the Obama Administration.
Nothing will improve until Obama is replaced, in any case.
I’m advocating “Fuck You, Asshole!” That’s all that can be done currently. We have no progressives that won’t fold on us. Not a one.
Hello Bankers dressed in IMF finery, hello austerity measures.
Yer so far all over the planet it’s useless to read you anymore.
So I won’t.
I agree.
still waiting for your link — if you do not produce one, i will consider your comment and all future comments to be nonfactual
Yep. Kindly put, too.
Perhaps, I am too radical for even FireDogLake…..
I think threatening me and giving me ultimatums when I agree usually 100% with Jane Hamsher and others here says more about the Moderator than me….
If you can give it to me, then I should have a right to respond….
I have every right to respond back and if you want to ban me from FDL that is your choice.
I have nothing to apologize for and nor would I at this point.
Chris Bowers is smoking some good weed. First he’s thrilled about the outcome of the vote, then he says:
“I feel sad that it came at the cost of throwing reproductive rights under the bus. Any win that means hurting some of your friends is not a full win.
[Note to Chris: *&$#@^$% you.]
Then:
“I feel frustrated, because I know we could have won the public option campaign, but it didn’t happen.”
[The public option fairy just didn't sprinkle enough fairy dust so the Dems were forced to abandon it, I guess. Sheesh.]
Welcome to the liberal blogosphere, where women’s health can be given away for a price, but only a really, really high price.
No doubt, just a caution about the reasons they give.
when do the mandates start?
Good, don’t.
Actually, no. You say a government mandate to pay money to a corporation is not a tax. I say it is a tax. UHC has more control over whether I live or die than the president has. To me that makes it (a decidedly undemocratic) part of the government. This bill just makes that more explicit, imposes some constraints on egregious behavior, and invites the possibility of optimization in the future.
Hear, hear! Well said.
So, there might actually be time for the tea baggers to get a constitutional amendment against the Mandate through, before the Court can even consider its constitutionality. There’s also plenty of time for progressives and conservatives in Congress to join together to repeal it.
I could well be wrong about this, but it seems a mandate that goes to Medicare rather than to Wellpoint is likely to be seen as a conventional tax rather than forcing purchase of a private product. Of course tax = bad for so many, but it has te advantage of not being a whole new idea. Then you can have an argument about efficacy — rates vs. size of the pool, and household budgets 5 years from now with vs. without that option — without getting caught up in the mandate side.
“feel sad”. Christ, what a douche.
Let’s rock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG6aiaLkz3Y
Those two cases are somewhat outliers and are highly distinguishable as to the nature of the alleged sovereignity invasion. Hey, maybe I will be proved wrong, I would be fine with that; but I don’t think so. Not by a longshot. The challenges will live or die on the Commerce Clause power and that looks pretty solid to me.
you misunderstood — i am one of the moderators tonight
where is your link?
Yep, the baseline is corporate will. The Supreme’s have loaded the dice up, on that one recently with United v.
It’s ugly Cass . . . and I’m delighted you have said it as much as I have . . .
It’s ugly, and it’s class war and we are losing, we the people.
If you don’t like or are unwilling to connect the dots, just cut the relevant flow of information out, and continue assiduously chasing your puppy tail? There’s reward at the end of it, I’m sure.
Perhaps we were unclear – flaming your moderator, whether the on-duty moderator or off, is not smart.
(For clarity:) I mean in a world where the private market continues alongside it (as opposed to the single payer system we so richly deserve).
The activities of our government have been presented to us frankly and unambiguously by one of Karl Rove’s aides, and for all it matters, it just as well could have been one of Rahm’s.
There is no clearer statement of our government’s contempt for the governed than this:
“We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
Read, rinse, repeat, until the full implication of our government’s relationship to us sinks in, as this quote is taylor made for describing the activities of the FDL community, which is: the judicious study of the government’s manufactured illusions intended for the implicit purpose of misdirecting it’s critics’ energies to “ just study what we do.”
In short: they’ve got you where they want you; on the treadmill to nowhere.
Jane, you did work hard to get Democrats to do the right thing by putting in PO. They did not listen and unfortunately this time Republicans are right. It is extremely unAmerican to force someone to buy something in a uncompetative enviornment i.e. like forcing someone to remain in an abusive relationship with threat of IRS. Republicans now have the right issue to fight for and they will big in 2010 in a way not seen in a generation.
So far I have not seen one passionate person about this Senate HCR bill even folks on MSM supporting democrats. Sen. DeMint was right about waterloo but wrong about target. It is waterloo for Democratic party. I am literally shocked on how it has transformed. Democratic party went right to the right of the Republican party with this corporate give-away mandates with no cost-controls.
My request to Progressives in Democratic party like Gov. Dean, Sen Feingold & Sen Boxer to jump ship and form or join a third party like GREEN party which does not accept corporate donations directly or indirectly as its party charter. That single charter is good enough for progressives to be passionate about their candidature and It makes progressives life simple when they vote since they know they will fight for american middle and poor class interests in senate and congress and not indulge in bait and switch stuff as we are seeing right now.
Once again Jane, thanks for fighting hard for normal people interests and trying to make America a better place.
The DailyKos has also banned writers at their site they did not like as well….Chris Floyd has written about it.
you make too much sense. :)
Oh for fuck sake. Michelle Bachmann is now waxing moronic on how an EO can’t trump the rule of law.
I am not making this up.
That wouldn’t be the same public option Obama traded away to the hospitals before they started, would it?
Being forced to buy an insurance policy does not necessarily mean you’ll have coverage.
Insurance companies deny claims. That’s their MO. That’s how they make obscene profits.
Nothing in this legislation regulates or standardizes what will or won’t be covered benefits, AND even if there were standards, there will be no oversight, no enforcement — except of course, enforcement of the individual mandate.
Minority opinion perhaps, but I should think it’s up to Americans to decide what’s American vs. un-American. Whether the mandate is or isn’t, we don’t really know yet.
The power of groupthink is in full swing at the Lake.
Tell me why you have any optimism at all about any thing concerning politics, political rule, legislative representation, and anything else that’s a part of our lives start to finish that’s controlled by the corporations and controlled by a corporate and facist system (when corporations buy out and own the government).
That’s pretty much what I meant, you’ve seen me here often enough, I would of have thought you KNEW where I was coming from!
I’m gonna tell Rahm you don’t keep good notes.
which I thought, uh, was one of the big reasons for reform! Gah!!
Placing yourself in good stead with Chris Floyd would be a stretch. You are here throwing elbows.
That just makes me want to…spit!
Yes, there are far too many people incarcerated in the US, but it was just announced last week I think that the total number of incarcerated actually declined for the first time. To be fair, the decline was pretty minimal, and there may even be a minute increase if you also factor in immigration detainees, which I do not believe were part of the statistics I saw. It is also primarily due to states not having any money, so it was not by choice.
In my experience, at most websites commenters are rarely banned for having unpopular opinions, more often a low degree of respect shown to those who disagree with them is a more significant factor.
i don’t know, but i’d expect the dynamic to be very changed if the premium cost was so much lower (as is medicare). but that wasn’t the po in the house bill — that one, if viable, was supposed to have higher costs (due to adverse selection and poor risk adjustment).
Chris Bowers threw the PO under the bus (last summer) like it was a soiled diaper.
pathetic.
perhaps because you’re still fast asleep?
Now that was a shitty day.
Hi, Eddy. Welcome. I don’t comment much either, but I love reading the truth here.
It’s not that I have any optimism at all. I don’t, much. It’s simply that there’s no other option than to keep fighting. People who get big things done have always told us that’s how it is. I know I probably won’t get what I want, or what I think is right. Giving up, on the other hand, is a guarantee of failure. So I stick with it.
Perseverance. Dumb simple perseverance.
Also: Personal attacks don’t help, much.
That’s very simplistic, fuckno. Good work has been done here, which does not fit your formulation. And no, I’m not going to debate that.
: )
HELLO WIZARDLEFT.
I hope you feel you are receiving a large and warm FDL welcome!!! Howdy!!! How are YOU this fine evening?
It’s not people we object to, but the lack of LINKS to substantiate BOLD INFLAMMATORY CLAIMS. Mods give every “writer” or if there is a number after the name, a COMMENTER every opportunity to catch up with the RULES.
It’s that simple.
Oh, and people here really frown on CAPS in BOLD.
Story of my life… Seriously thinking of changing my name to Cassandra.
Possible, because it is hard to really analyze without seeing the legal pleadings or other writing actually making out the argument; but the general argument that conservatives and right wingers have been making about the mandate, and the argument behind several of the state challenges like Florida and I think either Carolina or Virginia that have been worked up already are indeed based on Tenther arguments, and I just don’t see those gaining any traction.
Yeah… i gave him plenty of shit over it. So did a few other special firedogs..)
Hi selise!
It’s a place where truths are arrived at 24/7. It’s a veritable forrest of truths here, but no appreciation of their deeper meaning; no tree as it were.
howdy ES!
I have no other expectations.
Heh, such patience I do not possess.
beg pardon?
I guess we all need to keep hearing that one . . . it’s like Yossarian’s Catch 22.
It’s the best. It’s a good one. There is none better.
The story is told, the end predicted.
We the people are the only one’s who can forsake that prophecy.
*G*
And fucking goddamn it, I just won’t live with their fucking prophecy’s, I just can’t buy into them for the betterment of me and my fellow humans.
If they lead us to a nuke doom, well, they die to . . . *G*
You fool no one. You are as sweet as pumpkin pie.
Oh, I get it, the mandate was mixed in there.
I think Twain was talking about the penalty and folks having to go to jail for not purchasing insurance, at which point you stated that’s almost certinaly not going to happen (I agree), and then I think you went from responding about the penalty to responding about the mandate.
Make sense?
Fucking excellent.
Fish in a tank asking one another; how do you drive this thing, or something equally relevant.
at gmail dot com.
thanks!
i’ve gotta couple kids who would disagree with that bmaz
There is so much to dislike about this bill and how it was produced. But the most disturbing aspects of it are precisely those where Democrats blew off the interests of some and threw others under the bus almost casually. Tens of millions will be forced to buy crap insurance they will find difficult and expensive to use. Medicare will be slashed. Most Americans will continue to see their healthcare costs go up, and more will see their coverage go down.
But for me, and this was one of the points that I added on in my discussion of healthcare in my Obama scandals list is that this is the first time I can remember a Democratic President publicly singling out women and limiting their right to choose.
It also shows how unprincipled the Democrats are, and by that I mean they hold none of the core principles of the groups that make up their base as anything other than bargaining chips. What Democrats have done to women today they will, and some would say, have already begun to do to all of their base.
ack. i stayed up to listen to the vote and now i can’t sleep.
this one’s a keeper too. spot on Larue.
So you and I agree, we suck in terms of incarcerating people for all kinds of wrong things?
Or is that too much to ask, hoss . . ;-)
Thanks for your reply, I’m running scared on a lot of things, as you can tell, and the regulars are worrying me, too.
I’ll keep heart . . . ;-)
I seen to not fully understand where you are coming from . . .
Some comments you are anti, some pro . . .
And I don’t really get your full spectrum . . . I’ll read more and learn.
But you flip and flop, unless my vision is clouded so bad I make that up . .
So. *G* Have at it!!! Prog, or not!!!!!! *G*
But but republicans do that too! :P
srsly, i hate that we are all just pawns in their money game. but i was already pretty upset that our kids are being thrown into a hellhole overseas so cheney & friends could feel all macho while profiting from it.
Your welcome.
Uh I understood that House PO to be a means of developing national based body pools to counter inflated costs and such???
Oh PLEASE don’t mess with Newt . . . . there’s no reason to, for the first place.
Is this a left wing society Kaffe Klatch blog? Or are do ideas regarding moving forward get generated here as well?
FDL disdains DKos for being too far to their right, and those to the left for being too far to the left. Which makes the Lake what?
Don’t just stand there! Get a wire wisk and go after the varmint!
NOOOOOO!!!!
As Jane has pointed out, Republicans are going to hammer Democrats over the individual mandate. This will likely be quite effective. But ultimately it is all kabuki. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats are interested in delivering real healthcare to Americans, just as while critical of each other on the wars, both are committed to continuing them.
hahaha!
Hey Larue YOU are WANTED upstairs at LLN
She’s a saint in that regard . . . you all are.
Hell, I’m still here . . . ;-)
Maybe this helps?: I think that anyone who sees the bill as an unalloyed good, or an unalloyed disaster, is falling into a thought-trap. The bill itself -is- evil evil evil, but the simple fact that a bill has now been passed triggers a host of new dynamics and opportunities. Because the bill is evil evil evil it is very necessary to now start working very hard to make the most of those opportunities, i.e. to improve as much as can be improved (regulation, antitrust, PO, reimportation, etc.) and undo as much of the evil evil evil stuff as possible (reproductive, etc.). By contrast, getting disgusted and disengaging now ensures things will stay evil evil evil.
Make better sense?
that was the marketing campaign, not the policy analysis. i’m too tired to find the linkie tonight (my bad), but if you remind me when i’m kinda awake (either in a comment thread or via email), i’ll get it for you (i think it may have been the cms report).
Yeah! I know! It’s so bogus. All the kabuki crap is really getting to me. What to do?
He gets all the chonklit, Suz gets the smoked salmon and Reisling.
I dunna . . . they both might best get Irish Whiskey . . . I try and sacrifice some all those things nightly to their honor.
*G*
Hot Dayam…! We gots a party going on down here…! ;-)
A little late on a Sunday for most of ya, right…? *g*
Aloha…!
I missed it, and yeah yer all over it, that’s a keeper.
Nice work both of yas!
That was the theory but the reality was that the PO was largely left without specific content. What we do know of it in its last iteration was that it would be small and filled with sicker patients. It would not be allowed both by its small size and other constraints put on it by Congress to have much power to negotiate better deals with providers. So it would place no competitive pressure on private insurance companies.
Outliers? They’re the two most recent cases!
We’ll see how it shakes out when the Supreme Court takes up the issue (as they inevitably will). I’d note that if the Senate bill had followed the House’s lead in setting up a national exchange instead of state exchanges, they probably would have avoided the state mandate issue. But that would require federal regulation of insurance companies instead of manda– err, requiring that states impose new regulations on them… and that would make Max Baucus cry. Speaking of which, I’ll have to check tomorrow to see if Libby, Montana still gets its right to universal Medicare coverage.
Not just continuing them, but they appear to be in a competition to see who can be the bigger war monger.
Not worth leaving an excellent ES thread, but a burner for sure.
that makes some sense but it’s the evil evil evil parts that put “bullets” in the GOP “gun” that I don’t understand. ridiculous.
but dems won’t get any macho credit, no matter how warmongery they are. It’s so bizarre, they keep pandering to the wrong base.
Yer bluffin . . . *G*
I’m on a limited band width web based email system . . but I can get 10 megabytes worth linked to ya.
I’ll send ya what I can . . . only if you’ll promise it means anything WRT influencing you.
Cus, after all, I could just point to Mz. Hamsher’s fact sheet and be done with this difference of opinion.
So, still want all them linky’s you’ve already read and continue to disagree with, despite with not saying WHY you don’t think the facts and deatails are true, that refute the benefits of the Senate Bill and the WH preferene, and the House efforts that are being sold out to the corporatists tonight?
Fer sure…! Hard to dive in…! ;-)
Nonpayment of the mandate is not a criminal offense, yet. Therefore, violations will not result in jail time.
But I predict Congress will criminalize willful nonpayment within 3 years after the mandate goes into effect. Willful, as in a pattern of multiple violations.
Also, federal court magistrate judges may use their contempt power to punish recalcitrant violators who refuse to make court ordered payments following IRS referrals and adjudications.
Initial violation heatings probably will be handled by the IRS with a right to appeal to US District Court.
Sledgehammer seems to be the preferred method this evening.
*fist bump* *g*
Aloha CT! Long time no type! Hope you’re doing very very well.
Not that I expect you to know, but on the off chance: How well do the ‘Medicare for All’ and ‘Medicare Buy-In’ ideas do by comparison?
Have you read any of what Hugh’s posted and commented on in the past year?
Cus HE’S been kinda spot on as to how this POS bill is a POS . . . as has Mz. Hamsher, Jon, David, and a bounty of other posters and those who comment.
You HAVE been reading, havent ya? I know yer a long timer here, and a great and ardent progressive.
Yet here you are, not looking like a prog . . . . by any means.
I honestly don’t get it, given your past history in this forum . . one I’ve had GREAT respect for, and still do.
I just don’t get your stance on this HCR bill that’s a POS . . . I just don’t get it, and like others, you don’t quote specifics as to WHY you support it . . . I just don’t get it.
Since there won’t be any support for the mandate i doubt it will pull people to the polls. Probably will poll 80%.
However we got here, here is where we are now. So I see the most important questions as: Now what?
just links don’t take 10MB and no, i’m not bluffing.
but i did exclude the last few months in my comment @117
Bless ya and thanks for your comment, but damn I need to learn to spell fascist!!!!
Arrggggg . . . . it’s like there and their, and such . . . for me, and I keep misspelling it!!!
AGGGHHHHHH!!!
;-)
True dat.
I don’t think the Dems are willing to admit that this “base” even exists. I think they got hammered over the head with that big bad LIBERAL word for so many years that they’ve decided their best strategy is to just totally ignore that part of the base (while continuing to expect our votes).
You and I get to fuck with each other about what makes good rhetoric, or at least, good soup and waffles?
*G*
:-)>
yes. for about a year and a half i tried to read every since thread that had anything to do with healthcare. even set up my rss reader with all kinds of key works so as not to miss anything. not saying i didn’t miss anything — just that i tried hard not to. and dissenting comments in the threads was not what i was referring to although i’ve read them too. my point was that progressives in general did not put up an organized fight re the mandate from day one and so have left that issue on the table for the right wing to run with.
We makin avocado hollendaise or slaying wabbits?
I get so cornfuzzled anymores . . . I blame Suz’s LLN Saturday Toons, frankly . . . ;-)
I suspect we collectively are being a little short sighted.
I believe it’s in Obama’s interest to get a republican congress, house & senate, elected in 2010. My thinking is that Obama can then spend 2011 talking bipartisanship and 2012 blaming the Rs for everything in Obama’s re-election bid.
It may be if the Rs win the house & the Senate they’ll impeach Obama, but that would probably founder in the senate, and might even strengthen Obama’s opposition to the Rs.
Oh no, now what . . . geez . . .
I DIDN’T DO IT!!!!
Aloha, Hmmm…! Take away the anti-trust, nationalize AHIP and have them keep delivering, without the ‘for-profit’ modality…! Easy stuff…! ;-)
Why are the Lakers continuing to regurgitate the same old summaries of analyses, repackaging them as news, yet fail to talk about organizing to beat back the coup?
None I agree with!!!!
But nice try, and well, have some Reisling, smoked salmon, capers, crackers and some german stone ground mustard!!! Have lots!!!
I’m not sure what my positions mean anymore, or what it means to stick to them.
Other than I do, and will, stick to them.
This internet shit is killin me . . . anymore.
And damn, if you might have not been the proper straw that broke my camel’s back, too . .
YOU WIN THE INTERNETS TONIGHT!!!!
*where’sthereislingdammit*
Well, if you’re on the crew, then I’m in.
Will be spending my 50th BD next month in Napili, I’ll wave in your direction from the top of Haleakala. Hope you had a good tsunami experience… man, the water goin’ up & down around Coconut Island was wild to watch on TV!
and who, pray, will pick up that torch?
Nah, as I insinuated above, we’re both full of ammo, and none of it will change our stances.
You got yers, I got mine . . .
Have some Reisling, smoked salmon n capers, crackers and german stone ground mustard.
Let’s talk music, or pick some if you play . . . or sing.
I’m tiring of this . . . you old time Pups, me, newbies other n me, all progs, how could we disagree, Selise?
I honestly don’t get it . . . yet we do.
Le Sigh. Bless ya, ma’am.
Everyone who keeps it together and doesn’t succumb to ennui after tonight. That’s me and you, friend. That’s the choice we face. Same as it ever was.
Night all. It’s 1:30 am here in Kentucky and I’m tired.
Thanks Hugh, so the HOUSE PO is a loser, as written, too? With no direct competition to private ins?
Sigh, I thought there were some lines that would do better in it, but I can’t quote them . .
Always appreciate YOUR work in analysis and sharing it with us.
One of my fav prog sources, frankly.
Been quite a night. Sleep well.
Same as ever is hardly worth a fart in the wind, or haven’t you noticed?
Same as ever seems like FDL’s Holly Grail.
Lefties who give a fuck get Moded here just like at DKos.
The ducks in Wailoa pond even bailed when it surged…! ;-)
It really would depend on how they were done. For one thing Medicare at the moment doesn’t cover all costs but only 70-75% of them as I remember it. Would Medicare for all truly be for all or would it be extended only to those over 50 as some have suggested? Would restrictions on its ability to negotiate drug prices be lifted?
If you allow a voluntary buy in would employer based plans try to move some or all their employees to it because it would be cheaper? Would private plans cherrypick and try to dump sicker patients into it?
That is for all the partial approaches. If you go with a true Medicare for All, then that means everyone. Basically, you would defund private plans and use those funds to capitalize Medicare. Medicare has very low operating costs and it does have a record of pushing for cost savings. These should be enhanced. Those who can’t afford the buy-in get subsidized. The thing about Medicare for All is that it would be similar to single payer systems in other countries. These provide better health outcomes on a universal access basis at half the cost per capita of what we are currently spending. So we should be able to have a system that covers everyone, gives them good healthcare, and save money in the process.
Giving up is your choice, obviously. But don’t assume the people here don’t care. FDL is very much about caring very deeply, being smart, and getting as much shit done as possible given the constraints. Don’t confuse disapproval of uncivilness for not caring.
Ducks are underrated. Especially with a nice red wine. And where were you when it surged?
No, the failure to start to think out of the box at FDL once you figured out what’s up, is the source of my despair.
Thanks, that all makes perfect sense and sounds eminently sensible. I do think calling it a tax and doing Medicare for All has a better shot at public acceptance than the mandated payment to private insurers idea. Nobody who actually understands their own HI actually likes it. They’re like the cable companies that way.
Geebuz, you want me to disagree with that?
I don’t THINK so homey!!!
Progs are fighting a ton of shit, that’s one of many . . . we were fighting for a phreakin PUBLIC OPTION, and other items while that Mandate was up there, I don’t think for ONE minute any progs didn’t know what we were fighting WRT to the Mandate.
We got our heads pounded in early on the single payer, like Kuch and Dean and Edwards did in the primary.
And guess who OWNS those issues and the control for those issues?
And you want to take it to me for a lack of HCR because I as a prog got my HEAD pounded in issue by issue because the CORPORATIONS own it all???
Lemme know when you wanna pound some corporate heads in this class war, and get fully engaged in the real needs and fight.
Nah, Selise, love ya, thanks for your info, and positions for so long here at FDL, we just still disagree on what our positions are, and what it will take to fight and get what we want.
Bless ya . . . on we hope. Be well.
I agree. I think it will be heavy turn-out but against democratic party. Republicans will win by a land-slide because of individual mandates and lack of accountability with existing laws for finanacial melt-down during last year when normal people are having hard-time surviving with economy in doldrums Wall street had record profits which does not make sense.
Even in this environment Progressives can make a difference. Get some third party candidates from GREEN party which does not take corporate contributions as party charter elected from deep blue districts and the whole behavior of the congress & senate will change for the better when these representatives and senator will block bills citing logical common people concerns and issues.
Public are so fed up and worried once they see a third alternative all the parties will take notice and put on their best behavior for the normal Americans. Thats what will happen with the third party candidates once they are in congress and senate.
Normal American already pay more than 50% direct and indirect taxes. It doesnot make sense to avoid elections out of disgust and deny yourself a say on how that money is to be spent. If we skip elections more these sort of bills will pop up with mandates obvious and non-obvious reducing our take-home pay even more. Please vote even if disgusted with this congress and if you agree vote third-party and create competition in the political system.
Well then if you truly believe you have a better way to frame things, and are trying sincerely to persuade but haven’t got there yet, then by nature you’re signing up for a trying experience. And thank you for caring enough to do that. But keep in mind that with this group of people any uncivility will undercut your effectiveness at the persuasion.
Speaking for me, I’m greatly wounded despite being hip to it all since the 60′s.
I really wanted to believe we weren’t this fucked.
Gimme a week or two post this bullshit vote for HRC.
I’ll be fine. And as pissed as always, as many, many more are, and are going to be.
The numbers will swell, those who are disaffected . . . those numbers are swelling greatly, daily.
And the system can’t last, as it is, without providing for the disaffected.
History proves it, something collapses . . *G*
No, see Reno v Condon. The NRA and other gun lobby groups have tried to brief that bunk in conjunction with their 2nd Amendment cases for years (such as Heller and McDonald); it gets no traction. The Court has made quite clear that it will not get to that argument so long as a case can be decided on other grounds, Heck, in McDonald, which was argued just two weeks ago, the Court, even the conservative members, would not even extend the argument to the privileges and immunities clause under the 14th, much less go to the 10th.
love selise and am getting to appreciate Larue. Change I can believe in? – nah, not likely on this island.
well hey, you want to talk about civility while the flower of american youth is rampaging through 5 or more ME countries?, While our Gov, tortures? – Civility?
“those numbers are swelling greatly, daily” in the Red States for sure, at FDL they get turned back and or Moded (in the name of’ civility’, of course.)
What am I missing here? Weren’t we progressives opposed to a mandate without a public option? Why don’t real progressives in congress jump on this and help Republicans remove the mandate? That would give us much more bargaining power to get a public option now. We’d have something to trade – mandates for a public option.
I guess Obama would just veto it. But still, what’s to stop congressional Dems from voting to repeal the mandate and just saying “you insurance companies get a mandate when we get a public option”?
If you don’t like it, leave, but quit being an ass just to hear yourself whine.
OT but not really: while everyone was tied up in the insurance bailout bill drama, the Big O stacked the Deficit Commission. Ugliness afoot toward Social Security, just when tens of millions more are going to need it.
Russian ‘Day of Anger’ Rallies Tests Putin’s Rule
MOSCOW – Thousands of protesters rallied in dozens of Russian cities on Saturday against Prime Minister Vladimir Putin’s government as opposition groups mobilised anger over economic woes.
“Today our movement is in solidarity with the other protests in the country where they are calling for the resignation of Putin’s government. His policy during the crisis is not working!” youth activist Sergei Udaltsov told reporters shortly before being arrested.”
“Dubbed the “Day of Anger”, the nationwide rallies are being organized by a mishmash of groups — rights activists, the Communist Party, the opposition Solidarity movement and the Federation of Motorists — in a bid to transform scattered discontent into something bigger.”
Nary a peep on the American front. But tomorrow, the Right will start moving, and the left will wake up from their analytically induced slumber, and find themselves out gunned.
how sad.
Cleanup in aisle 291, mod…
No. Perhaps, on rare occasions, being right on the screws IS more virtuous that being polite.
never mind. my bad.
The Tenth Amendment did play some role in the spate of Commerce Clause cases in the Rehnquist/Sandra Day O’Connor court. Probably the most notable in this regard was Seminole Tribe v. Florida where the Court found that the Commerce Clause did not have the scope of the 14th Amendment and could not be used to rescind the sovereign immunity of states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminole_Tribe_v._Florida
The thing is that Commerce Clause cases haven’t been the hot button Court cases they once were. Conservatives used to lay into the Clause all the time. Now not so much, especially in all the interference being run by Congress, thinking of Melissa Bean here, to protect banksters from tighter state regs. Wasn’t there something similar in the healthcare debate with national rules for exchanges taking precedence over state ones?
Ya just lost me, by being uncivil to me, in response to a comment in which I specifically pointed out how counterproductive that can be here. Now that’s sad.
Often in life one has a choice between expressing one’s feelings vs. getting important shit done. You are choosing unwisely, in my humble personal opinion.
That train left the station a few hours ago when the House passed the Senate and reconciliation bills.
Perhaps. But whatever its fate in court may prove to be, I suspect the public isn’t going to swallow it, at least not without a fight. So that train might just come ’round again.
Hmmm on, then – judiciously no less.
Uh, it’s an actual tax, and in return for paying your taxes you get social insurance. No. It’s not the same.
The healthcare bill attacks Medicare to the tune of $400 billion over 10 years. The healthcare debate as a cover for slashing Medicare was very underreported. Both entitlement programs, Medicare and Social Security, have been targeted by the Obama Administration. Only a couple of weeks before Obama did the official launch of his healthcare initiative. He had a one day conference where cutting Social Security was touted by Orszag as the way to cut deficits. This was the one Pete Peterson had put together, and was covered here in posts (February 2009).
I’m confused. The insurers were the first to dream up the mandate. AHIP wrote a proposal in 2007 specifically seeking a mandate, and were incensed that the mandate penalties were not high enough. Why would they now want the mandate repealed?
But I thought the Medicare cuts were only to the subsidies in Medicare Advantage. Is that not true?
My view is that there is not going to be any recovery. Economic conditions will likely worsen significantly in 2011. In practical terms, this legislation is going to be dead long before it is supposed to take effect.
America is on a path of becoming # 1 in education again. States are contemplating the elimination of 12th grade.
Statistical analisis will have our students graduating one year earlier than the rest of the world. Whoopee!
No, I am not even sure Medicare Advantage fits into this because properly speaking it is not part of Medicare. Rather Orszag and Obama contemplated cost savings by reducing rehospitalizations of the elderly. It is hard to go into details because their position papers were extremely vague as to how these savings would occur. They called them efficiencies. They sounded more like cuts in services.
I think you’re likely right on the economy. That will certainly affect all kinds of things, not just the HI reform program.
Way too late for me, so good night to all.
The bill is historic, it will be called that over and over but the qualifier will be missing, because it’s a historic failure.
Me too, and The Sweetie’s home. Night all, it’s been a big day.
Hmmm, so you are saying the biggest cuts were not to MA subsidies? Interesting. I didn’t know that. The re hospitalization argument is that keeping people longer yields better results than having them leave only to come right back, which is what happens now. Something to do with the way Medicare pays for hospital stays. But, yeah, I don’t like that they are cutting Medicare when it already needs to cover more comprehensive care.
“Change will come only by building movements that stand in fierce and uncompromising opposition to the Democrats and the Republicans. If they can herd Kucinich and John Conyers, the sponsors of House Resolution 676, a bill that would create a publicly funded National Health Program by eliminating private health insurers, onto the House floor to vote for this corporate theft, what is the point in pretending there is any room left for us in the party?”
-Chris Hedges
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_health_care_hindenburg_has_landed_20100322/
I really mean no offense by what I am about to say. I say it with all sincerity and as much “civility” as I can muster.
All that remains for some of us is to express our feelings because you and yours aren’t getting anything done and haven’t for decades. That is what people like you do not understand. The prevailing “pragmatic,” play-by-the-rules, work-within-the-completely-corrupted-system, do-the-same-thing-over-and-over-again-and-expect-different-results “incrementalists” mindset leaves us with no other alternative. Literally.
What a fabulous opportunity to “share your thoughts” with them.
No bricks, now.
As someone who just started using Medicare in the last year, I can tell you that the “finding a doctor who will take you if you’re on Medicare” is already a problem. I don’t recall that there’s any “doc, you’ve got to accept this patient” in this legislation.
And it’s not just an issue for “remote areas like” HI and AK [I have friends in Alaska who tell horror stories of being “fired” by their doctor of 30 years once they started on Medicare). This is also true for Washington DC, where I’m from, and I’d bet some other areas.
Hugh, see my remark @ 314 about the difficulty of finding providers who will accept Medicare.
Any thoughts on this?
Before we start doing the Happy Snoopy Dance over Medicare for All, I think we ought to be fully briefed about its problems so we can solve them.
And Medicare’s got a lot of the “we don’t cover this; we don’t cover that” in it. Plus co-pays, deductibles and the other usual crap.
Just wanna thank each and every one of you who “gets it” re: this whole immoral, unethical corporatist process we’ve just witnessed. Will even use the word “inspired” as I read through some of your insights…
Yesterday I spent time watching a “down the rabbit hole even FURTHER” video series on YouTube…man by the name of Michael Ruppert, former LAPD who the CIA tried to recruit into its drug running operations…long story short: I thought my eyes were already pretty wide open, but this piece…documentation was impeccable, impeccable re: whole host of things related to where we find ourselves now as a country and planet.
Very low energy afterwards, feeling rather down. So coming here and seeing so many who really understand “The Game” and its utter depravity…AND who are saying, “No more.”
Well, thank you. Thank you thank you thank you.
It’s time.
Thanks for challenging the Doublespeak/Orwellian tone of bmaz@98′s assertion that IRS “rounding up” couldn’t happen. Of course it could.
That’s the insidious nature of how “The Big Lie” continues to be fed as “truth.” Repeat it often enough and eventually, the masses accept it unquestioningly.
Positive note: Enough people are FINALLY waking up to the true landscape of how things work in this country…and with wonderful websites like this one that keep puttin’ the info out there…I sense it’s getting harder and harder for those who’ve been pulling the strings behind the curtain (or sometimes right in front of the curtain!)to get the results they’re looking for.
“When unions such as SEIU cannot see that this is a Corporate-Fascist Bill and attack members of congress who realize it is that…”
What makes you think, they don’t? http://jbjd.wordpress.com/2010/02/22/guess-whom-howard-zinn-called-his-star-pupil-jbjd/
Notice that Nancy Pelosi, in likening the historic nature of this bill’s passage to that of other programs like Medicare and Social Security, did not call it “Universal Health Care” but rather, “Health Care for Everyone.” This is a distinction WITH a difference.
And for them, getting Obama elected was much better than getting McCain elected because:
1. The corporate/banking/CIA-police state elite knew this country was becoming much more diverse and open, and growing tired of having the same “old white guys” running everything (no insult intended);
2. They also knew the country was very angry and on the verge of busting open;
3. So put up a guy who symbolizes that diversity and shift, that “change,” and have him say all the right things about war, about torture, about “no more politics as usual” and “no more trampling on the Constitution” etc. (masterfully manipulative);
4. Once in office, as he does just the opposite of what he said he’d do…many of those once angry voters who cast a ballot for him will ignore what’s unfolding right before their very eyes because cognitive dissonance of this magnitude…usually rationalized away.
Superb strategy for heading off what was a brewing storm in this country and in so doing, remain in control.
Actually, 2.5% of your income starting 2016. (It was changed.)
This achievement ranks right up there with losing Ted Kennedy’s seat.
Only the true O-holes are celebrating. And you can tell they’re faking it.
Phone Calls to Wall Street:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOZTldbo2Fw
From a 1998 Senate Budget Committee session:
Sen. Hollings: “We owe Social Security 736 billion right this minute…”
That’s how Clinton made the bottom line look better. Well documented. And no doubt, even more has been “borrowed” from s.s. since. (Can’t find current numbers.)
So, do you think we’ll hear that the reason social security is in the toilet…has nothing to do with the monies people put into it, but due to the monies the government took out of it?
Outstanding article. Brilliant, actually. Thanks for the link.
P.S. Sometimes…it just takes a little time for folks to accept such a big change re: letting go of something they’ve believed in, worked for, cared about for so long(Dem Party). My guess is, lots of mourning going on, and understandably so. Translate: Perhaps allowing some of the people who’ve been hangin’ here a while to do so is not only wise; it’s compassionate.
P.P.S. One of the stages of grief: bargaining.
It really depends on two things:
- Whether the only thing Democrats do is take a victory lap.
- What the polls look like in six weeks
Documenting the last-minute frenzy in state legislatures does not necessarily indicate where this is going. When the dust settles, we’ll know better what the landscape for real healthcare reform is like.
You cannot seriously believe that commenting on this blog is making the necessary noise.
“Once in office, as he does just the opposite of what he said he’d do…” No; before he got into the Oval Office, he showed you who he was; maybe you just weren’t ‘listening.’ For example, don’t you remember that Presidential candidate Obama promised to filibuster the extension of the FISA exemption from liability for telecoms, to prevent its passage – http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2007/10/obama_camp_says_it_hell_support_filibuster_of_any_bill_containing_telecom_immunity.php – but then, he not only did not filibuster against the bill’s passage but also voted Yea? http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00168
Consistent with his prior conduct, the President has extended the Patriot Act. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-patriot28-2010feb28,0,176068.story
Don’t worry about the Democrats in the elections Jane. They are no different than the Republicans. Just sneakier. Where does FDL go from here? I want to support you in your work but not if you are raising money for Democrats. I don’t know you Jane but I think you must feel exhausted. I am thinking Kucinich might feel a little tired also. This is what the Party does. It absorbs and neutralizes the energies and resources of the left. Bolt the Party Jane. The Democrats and Republicans are the (sold out) government and the government is key to the power of the Oligarchs because it controls the Army and Police. When you try to reform the Party you play right into their hand.
I woke up at 4 am, started thinking about this bill, and couldn’t go back to sleep. I began reading here and felt a small glimmer of hope. Then I went to my local paper to read about the bill http://www.dailycamera.com/news/ci_14721499#axzz0iuLkiDdN and saw that someone had posted a link to FDL’s fact sheet. That person’s comment had been marked down by others, who were mainly all gloating about the passage of this bill. Here’s an example:
“Awesome job by Pelosi, Reed, and the White House to get this thing passed. Finally the Congress is interested in doing the right thing for the people, even if they made too many compromises to get there. Now that the debate (and the Law) has shifted to the Left, we can take more ground and get more people covered in the future. All-or-nothing politics is NOT how our system works, so everyone should be happy that we are getting such a big leap forward.”
I live in Boulder, a liberal bastion and a city recently voted Smartest City by Forbes magazine. I am so depressed by the stupidity of my fellow Boulderites. I’m back here to cheer up.
Virginia’s legislature is not controlled by Democrats. See Votesmart saying the Republican advantage rose in 2009 to 59-39 in the VA House. (Senate too, I believe, but don’t have a source.)
Mauimom, i think Hugh is referring to something theoretical or else he’s confused medicare for all with the buy in– it’s NOT the single payer medicare for all that the activists are pushing — which is an expanded and improved medicare (to indicate that medicare does have problems which need fixing) and which is NOT premium based so there is no buy-in (also no copays, deductibles or coinsurance) and “everyone is in, nobody out” (it’s taxed based and for the middle class that means there is a small increase in medicare payroll taxes — but that only is paid if you are working and doesn’t effect who is covered which is everyone).
but i have no doubt the question you raise is a a very real one especially regionally (with the situation for medicaid being even worse) and the cms actuary discussed some of those problems in his reports on the house and senate bills (iirc you and i may have even briefly discussed this issue when i was reading those reports?).
there are two things that immediately come to mind: first, the ama has to be taken out of the process of setting reimbursement rates (so some specialities get the big bucks and primary care gets too little). montanamaven wrote a diary where this was discussed, Mad as Hell Docter Paul Tells About Crashing the White House and a secretive AMA Committee. second, part of the cost savings of single payer is to providers because there billing process is streamlined (only one payer instead of many to deal with) and this saves them on administrative costs. more a bit more on this see this interview with uwe in this interview: How the U.S. measures up to Canada’s health care system:
i’m sure there’s lots more i haven’t thought of (but i expect the real policy/cost experts have).
one more thing – since everyone is in the same program, there is a better chance of the public pressuring coherently for getting it right because we are not all ghettoized into little bits of the program which we care about getting right but no one with any economic or political power cares much about. with everyone in the same program the public’s interests are aligned instead of competing.
anyway, i’m sure the above doesn’t really answer your question. just wanted to make sure you knew that i think it’s a good one and that as far as i know not all the issues are resolved, but that, imo at least, single payer puts us on a track for better addressing them.
Please come back in November. Your tears will taste delicious.
I think if you read the responses, you’ll see which way the hatred is coming from. Work together to make it better because now it’s law. Either that or…PUMA, PUMA, PUMA! all the live long day. ;)
What incentive should we have to “work together” with the corporate Dems when we were completely shut out of the process the first time? Your bill, your consequences. Christ. After this final, horrible push to get this monstrosity passed while completely trucking everything important to progressives, the next talking point is “Work together to make the bill better!” It’s like a perfect storm of stupid, the entire process.
I’m going to go pick up my welfare check, scotchguard my bathrobe, and take my dog for an abortion to get my mind off of all this shiat.
PUMA, PUMA, PUMA! all the live long day. ;)
That’s actually very funny. You remind me of that wacky preacher in Kansas who interrupts people’s grief because he likes to really piss them off. My job is to get people to leave the Democratic Party because – well – it sux. Whether you are really a Democrat or not, you make my point. Thanks Tom.
Doo Da Doo Da ………………
The Medicare deductible for last year was $135, piddly squat, really, and even I can afford it. The co-pays are another matter. Medicare whacks the hell out of med bills and then pays 75 percent. Even so, on my meager income, 75 percent limits the procedures I can afford. Right now, with bilateral lumpectomy and radiation, I’m at my limit on med bills and I’ll be paying off some of this stuff for years. In collection, of course. Oh, well.
I haven’t been refused by anyone. I’m curious about Medicare refusals and I wonder if it’s particular to a locality.
Hi Mauimom, Kaiser is very important in Hawaii. Is there the same problem if one gets Kaiser’s Medicare Plus Plan there? I have it here in the DC area and find there’s no problem finding Doctors. Of course, it does cost close to $200 per month in premiums; but it’s good to have the piece of mind that comes with Kaiser’s pretty much full coverage for anything really serious.
Also, when my wife and I came here (DC) in the ’70s, we signed up with the HMO that later became Kaiser. So except for a dangerous period for a few years before we turned 65, and an earlier period when we had Aetna for awhile (ugh) we’ve always used it, and always had the same family doctor. So, our Doctor of 30 years is a Kaiser Doctor, and we are very comfortable with him.
Thank you for summarizing this debacle in one short sentence. For those who missed it, I repeat:
“The deal was to bring a mandate without any real reformation to get further campaign donations and support.”
For Obama and Rahmbo, it was all about getting those Big PhARMA $$$ into Democratic coffers. It had very little to do with improving the lives of Americans. And no, it’s not too cynical to be the truth. So let’s see if it will cost them anything in November. They won’t be getting a dime or a vote from anyone in my family.