Jesse Jackson Jr bringing the gavel today.
Demanding the YEAs and NAYs on 15-minute vote on point of order.
CSPAN has now cut away to the kill-the-bill demonstrations on the Capitol grounds today.
We’ve now come back from the “fifteen-minute” vote.
Based on the earlier schedule, the House appears to be taking two hours for every hour allotted to debate. We are at 4pm eastern, when they scheduled this to be completed at 3pm eastern.
On MSNBC, awaiting the arrival of the Forced-Birth King, Bart Stupak, who will tell us what deal he’s agreed to for his vote for this bill. Unless he’s going to vote against it!
Lawrence O’Donnell now lauding his MSNBC colleague Chris Matthews for understanding ten months ago that health care reform would all come down to abortion. No mention of Matthews berating Alan Grayson for saying earlier this year that reconciliation would be the parliamentary method used to pass health care reform.
The House is not waiting for the conclusion of Bart Stupak’s press conference. JJJ at the gavel again.
Louise Slaughter relating yesterday’s events: spitting, racist comments, homophobic comments. “Anger is not just contained to the Capitol Grounds — last week someone threw a brick through my office window in my district!”
Slaughter recalling FDR’s language on good health being essential to the safety and security in our nation. Inequality of health care by region, economic status. “to prevent and care for sickness and disability, loss of ability to work among workers, care for children and mothers” — this is a reminder that the eyes of history are watching us. This should be our guidepost.
Truman, Clinton invoked now, along with Richard Nixon’s efforts. “Our final bill may end up being less progressive than the one Nixon proposed many decades ago” — sing it, Louise!
Slaughter giving the broad strokes of the majority’s views of the bill, CBO score, coverage expanded. That 1.3 trillion in the second decade is a talking point they absolutely love.
“We are here today to do our job — I consider the Rules Committee to be the kitchen of the House of Representatives, and I am proud to be the cook.”
Dreier up now: “what happened yesterday on the grounds of the Capitol was totally unacceptable.” Is this the first GOP denouncement of actions of the teapartiers against Cleaver, Lewis, Carson, and Frank?
Dreier: “We will hear story after story that is a tragedy — this ill-conceived bill is such a lost opportunity for a bipartisan solution. Speaker Pelosi argues that the American people care more about the product than the process. And she is right! The public was outraged by tactics to avoid an actual bill, but people are really outraged by its effects!” [we won the battle on deem-and-pass, so we're back to hating on the bill itself]
Dreier says this will gut Medicare and Medicare Advantage, cut HSAs until they are worthless. Do the GOPs understand that, you know, the Louisiana Purchase is already actually a, um, thing?
Dreier discussing the majority’s efforts to avoid an up-or-down vote. “Majority ignored demands from the American public, but when Democratic members protested, the leadership removed this plan”
Cannot bring himself to congratulate the leadership for holding an actual vote on what he calls a terrible bill. Says debate has been closed down, which doesn’t really account for his current speech. Reconciliation bill was only available last night, violating the 72-hour rule. No transparency, no accountablility.
“Will the Senate health care bill become the law of the land, and will the reconciliation bill be sent to the Senate?”
Points out that, today, only the Senate bill will become law. “Leadership claims the reconcilation bill fixes everything, but it doesn’t. Putting aside that hard truth, the reconciliation bill will be picked apart like everything else send to that body”
[Playing on House's natural distrust of the Senate]
“Only thing to be sent to the President is the Senate bill which almost no one supports.”
Cornhusker Kickback, Gatoraid, Louisiana Purchase, Bismarck Bank Deal — these are all in the Senate bill we are being asked to vote into law today.
“LET’S START FRESH!”
Slaughter recognizes James McGovern of Massachusetts.
“real meaningful health insurance reform — end the abusive practices of companies, close the donut hole, biggesst deficit reduction package of the past 25 years.”
Invoking Ted Kennedy now. Going through the advantages for Massachusetts, tax credits, medical research centers, community health centers, no longer necessary to subsidize care for out-of-staters who don’t have health care.
“I regret deliberate GOP obstruction. They opposed Social Security, they opposed Medicare. Ted Kennedy was right, the work goes on, the cause endures.”
Diaz-Balart of Florida now, from Dreier: “Raids medicare, genuinely painful medicine, social convulsion, inevitable catastrophe, majority and the President went with dogma instead.”
[I have to wonder what bill the GOP thinks they are voting on -- did someone slip them H676 instead? When did empowering insurance companies become Democratic party dogma?]
Slaughter yields to Alcee Hastings of Florida. “I was working to save the lives of the 45,000 Americans who die every year because they don’t have health insurance.”
Rebuts Newt’s “grand and radical social experiment” language.
“Put me in the radical column!” [This may not be the best soundbite, Congressman]
Hastings says “Ronald Reagan was an icon by all standards” — something I think no Democrat should say from the floor of the House.
Dreier recognizes Sessions (TX): “This would be against the law in Texas, it is deceptive trade practice. The other 23 million who won’t be covered. Neither will the 500 trillion in physician reimbursement.”
[that's what he said]
Cheering when he calls Hastings a radical.
Slaughter recognizes Mrs Matsui (CA).
“This is the day we get to do something monumental, control costs, reduce the deficit, change people’s lives. Gives people in my hometown in Sacramenta control over their healthcare, takes it away from insurance companies who deny them care.”
Matsui: “the current system is not working for them, and it’s not working for me.”
Dreier: Virginia Foxx. Oh this might be good! “most offensive pieces of social engineering legislation in the history of the United States. Majority is arrogant, assumes they and washington knows best.” We agree with the liberal Democrat chairwoman of the Rules COmmittee, this bill doesn’t reform health care. Start over!
[remarkable restrained for Foxxy]
Slaughter: Mr Cardoza (CA): “My wife has been a family doctor for 20 years, has patients who are denied care by the same companies who want to kill this bill. She was trained to practice medicine, not to fight insurance companies to get treatment for her patients.” Brother runs a small family business for 50 years, their insurance rates are going up 70%, insurance company denied his wife the three extra days the doctor wanted her to spend in the hospital.” Talks about a constituent’s child who died because he couldn’t get her into the hospital that could care for her. Talks about EMK’s hearings 20 years ago, when he was an intern on Capitol Hill.
“We have waited for this day for far too long, this debate can’t wait another generation, this is desperately long overdue.”
Dreier yields to former Rules member, Mr Cole: “This rule sets a deplorable precedent, silences millions of voters, cuts 500 billion dollars from Medicare, 55 members filed amendments, none of these were even considered. Democrats turning a blind eye to the future. Bill flawed, urge a no vote.”
Slaughter yields to Mr Perlmutter, of Rules & Colorado: Marks a historic time for our country, takes reasonable steps to make health care available. There’s lots more work to be done. The status quo is not an option. THis issue touches every person.
Dreier yields to another former Rules member, Gingrey of GA: “I left behind my medical practice to come to Congress — I brought 5200 lives into this world. Raiding Medicare is not reform. Cornhusker is not reform. Turning the IRS into enforcement agents on health insurance is not reform. There’s a Dear Colleague letter being passed around on the floor from 1993 telling members they would be helped if they voted for the Clinton tax increases — they are ALL GONE!”
Slaughter yields to Pingree: “Here’s what I hear from Maine — 23% oincrease from Anthem for a small business owner. A man named Mark pays 1/3 of our income for health insurance. Ron tells me about living on the edge, as an out of work cardiac patient. These people wrote to me from Maine, but this happens all over America. Today we will change that — strengthening Medicare., closing the donut hole, making health insurance available to small businesses and individuals.
JJJ: Don’t traffic the well while others are speaking.
Dreier yields to Lee of NY: “I have heard from thousands of western NYers who are afraid of this govt takeover. Air Force veteran says if you want to try his govt health care, you are welcome to do so. This is just another govt entitlement program. Not what the American people deserve
McGovern recognizes Polis (CO) “Honored to be a new member of the Rules Committee — strong product, bends cost curve, reduces deficit, tax credits for business [this guy doesn't really sound like a Democrat -- no mention of coverage]. [Now railing on undocumented immigrants, we can't subsidize a doubling -- "this nation can't afford undocumenbted immigratnts]
[WOW, that was a DEMOCRAT]
Dreier yields to Dr Broun of Georgia: “The simple truth is, this health care bill is a killer. It kills jobs, kills freedom, kills the family budget, kills our future, allows taxpayer funded abortion. You can never call yourself pro-life again if you vote for this bill, no EO can change that. We can do this without killing our economy, we must kill this bill.
McGovern reserves balance of time.
Dreier unprepared for next speaker, requests how much time (11 GOP, 6 Dems) Connie Mack of FL (husband of Cher’s exhusband’s widow, really!)
“Unconstitutional power grab, arm twisting, let’s see who’s back here in November!”
Dreier yields to a bunch of GOPs who want to revise and extend their remarks (submit written objection) all of whom [surprise!] oppose this bill.
JJJ notifies all members that they may not “embellish their revise/extend remarks with oratory” and that further remarks will be charged against the GOP.
Dreier continues to recognize what McGovern calls a “conga line” of revise/extenders.
[I am not going to name each of these, as you can imagine it is the usual suspects]
Each of them does get one word of oratory in, as they all call it “this flawed health care bill.” Perhaps Dreier has put the talking point on the podium.
Dreier introduces “the newest Republican” Parker Griffith from Alabama!
Continuing with revise/extenders in opposition to “this flawed health bill.”
Dreier wants to know, at the end, if any time was actually consumed. JJJ responds that they were charged five seconds, which Dreier wants back. JJJ laughs, notes he has ten minutes and 25 seconds remaining.
Continues with revise/extenders. Reichert, Issa.
Dreier now yields one full minute to CA Dan Lungren [hi Mary!] who decides to tell a story about King Richard and Wales. “We’ve worked so hard in the pro-life movement for years and years and years, I beg those of us who joined us to understand that an executive order is NOT law. The courts have said there is a statutory mandate to provide….”
JJJ gavels him down.
Revise/extenders continue, American Samoa gets some of Dreier’s time charged against him. Democrats may also have been charged with booing time.
Bachus now — “public funding of abortion of a innocent and defenseless life whose first action by its own government is an action to destroy it.” [then prays]
dreier yields to Fortenberry (NE): “What if this bill fails, now we have a chance to get health care reform right? Then we could do things right, without eroding liberty. We’ve lost sight of the actual effects. A young boy asked me what country he should move to if this bill passes.”
McGovern yields 1 minute to Butterfield (NC): “Commend Preisdnet Obama and the Dem leadership to stand up to this political opposition. I have 100,000 uninsured in my district. My constituents need health insurance reform now! We are poised to deliver historic reform, historians will record that today we responded to the needs of American families.
JJJ 3.55 Dems; 7.25 GOP
Dreier continues with revise/extend [wow does my gaydar go off when that Aaron Schock gets up and speaks]
[I don't really understand what talking point these backbencher GOPs think they are getting -- doesn't every one of their constituents understand they oppose the bill? Do they really need to get up and say so? Oh.... I get it, this runs out the actual clock without cutting into anyone's floor time!]
Bachmann changed the script — calls the bill ‘dangerous’ not ‘flawed!!!’
JJJ wants the house in order, stay outta the well when others are speaking! Gavel time.
More revise/extenders. King, Burton, Goehmert (“so-called” gets a charge against GOP time)
Slaughter yields to Gerry Connolly of Fairfax County VA: “This historic bill will bring down costs for families, improve access to care, bring down the deficit.” Quotes Timothy, on the Sabbath. “Let’s pass this”
Dreier yields one minute to Buchanan (FL): “I oppose this bill, it raises taxes, cuts Medicare. Increases taxes 540 million, passes costs on to LLCs, real cuts of 504 million to Medicare, it’s not perfect, but we can’t take Social Security and Medicare away”
JJJ: 55 secs Dems; 6 minutes GOP
Dreier: more revise/extenders. Yields to Blunt, MO. “80 amendments, none of which were allowed by the Rules Cte, this bill doesn’t improve what works. We shouldn’t proceed today because this costs too much, the proponents say we’re gonna accumulate a trillion dollars in ten years and spend it in 6. After that, 200 billion a year. I oppose the rule and oppose the bill.
Slaughter passes.
Dreier reminds his colleagues he will submit a sub Rule calling for the Chair to call the role on the Rule and on the Bill.
American legion and VFW oppose this bill.
Slaughter talks about Democratic affirmation of VA care, this bill won’t undermine veterans’ care.
Dreier: revise/extend, then yields 1 minute to LA’s Cassidy: “Massachusetts has the same plan, the Democratic treasurer of MA says their plan will go BK in four years. Democratic leaders want to tell people how to live. Listen to the American people, not with their leaders!”
Dreier wants to know how many speakers Slaughter has left. Ten. Dreier therefore reserves.
Slaughter: Yields one minute to Jerrold Nadler NY: “This health insurance package, despite real inadequacies, solves real problems. A yes vote will save 45,000 lives per year. Bankruptcies will be athing of the past, capping out of pocket expenses, nobody will go broke because they get sick.”
Dreier has some more revise/extenders for unanimous consent, they continue to follow the script “flawed health care bill.”
Slaughter yields one minute to Mr Boccieri (OH), last speaker on their side but her close: he talks about Natoma “her rates went up 20%, then went up 40%. Luckily my mom had good health insurance, but she does not. Nearly 40,000 people in my district lack health insurance. Every man woman and child in Iraq has health care b/c Tommy Thompson took a billion dollars!”
Cheering hooting and hollering — then gaveling from JJJ.
Dreier: Has Slaughter any more speakers? No.
Dreier closing now. “Many stories of tragic situations from our constituents. We all want affordable health insurance. [quotes Dennis Prager now] What is before us, Mr Speaker — job killing tax increases, provisions to hire 18,000 new Internal Revenue agents to police the American people and their health insurance purchases. We believe in bipartisan solutions, we fervently beleive in expanding health savings accounts. Item number five, something the president supports too! — meaningful lawsuit reform. Our five commonsense proposals have been ignored, they will help Americans now.”
JJJ: Your time has expired (gavels).
Slaughter: Move the previous question.
JJJ: No’s have it, record vote requested.
Somehow, the clerk is now reading a resolution commending Cold War veterans. Now they are going to vote.
Two fifteen minute votes, then two five minute votes. The third of these is the vote on the Rule to consider the Health Care Reform bill.
We will pick up another Liveblog after these votes.



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Dreir R-CA, lamenting vanishing bipartisanship. Everyone should agree with him so bipartisanship can begin anew.
Teddy on the job!!
Maybe Bart will pull a fast one!
“That 1.3 trillion in the second decade is a talking point they absolutely love.”; yeah, everyone loves fairy tales.
If there is anyone who can honestly say their life situation they find themselves in is what they projected over 10 years ago, please chime in and let us know how you managed that.
I’m lucky if I can sucessfully plan my weekends!
Wow. Thanks Teddy. Good on y’all for staying with this.
I just deleted an email from Courage Campaign–upbraiding Loretta Sanchez for seriously considering voting No.
Et Tu, Courage Campaign?
My God, but the Veal Pen must be damn crowded these days. But with all the groups I’m unsubscribing from, my inbox should be getting a lot less cluttered!
FunnyDiva
Debate minutes strike me as being much like football minutes – there’s a great deal of time that doesn’t pass in the football universe, but does in the observers’ universe.
They put up crazywoman Foxx? Bunch of dolts. They’re going to suffer a massacre in November.
Virginia Foxx–arrogant is the new uppity.
GO HOWARD DEAN (he’s on MSNBC right now)
Courage Campaign
You bet. They’ve got the courage to hang around in the veal pen with the rest of their sellout hack colleagues. What a joke.
i would feel a whole lot better about today if it offered us all a way to buy insurance NOT from Anthem, United, Aetna, et al.
had a medicare buy in for those over 55
COBRA extension for the unemployed
90% Medical loss ratio
pre-existing condition ban for all NOW
negotiations on drug prices by Medicare and the other public insurers
as it is, I like to see the goopers take one.
but i dont like what we are selling.
Mitt Romney is gonna be pissed! Howard just said this is Mitt Romney’s health care extended to the entire country.
Gotta run and get the popcorn in the microwave and pop myself a beer…….
This is a good win for the democrats, but all the rhetoric, every fucking bit of it, keeps yammering on about CHILDREN.
There are a LOT of adults, myself included, who have NO children and NO health insurance. And I have not one FUCKING shred of doubt that we childfree people will, as always, be on our own, left to die, while people with children will be invited to feed at the trough of government perks, AGAIN.
So next time I give you and your screaming brats a death glare at a restaurant or grocery store, y’all better understand I have a goddam good reason for doing so.
I’m so fucking sick of this shit. YOU BREED ‘EM, YOU FEED ‘EM!!!!!!!!
Given progressives’ rich history of civil protest against unjust government policies…how come the teabaggers are the only ones out in the streets in DC?
WTF…?
Gosh, isn’t it great we passed Romney Care nation wide! Woot! Go Dems!
Yeah, go get yourself that popcorn…
im so frikkkkkking nervous!
Thatguy – I’m childless also. Emphasizing the effects on children is a strategic thing – nobody can do the “but they are just lazy bums” argument when it comes to children. I’m all for any honest strategy that gets us to do the right thing and cover everyone in our country.
I keep wondering if the CBO numbers subtract the near trillion (plus interest and inflation) up front now… before applying that deficit meme.
Frustrated, I guess. But your generosity of spirit is astounding…
Now that they have the Stupak group, they should be able to get the public option.
NO there are at least 10′s of thousand of peple marching becasue of immigration reform and LaRAZA is against the legislation.
However, the question of why there wasn’t mass marches in favor of single payer or the public option is a valid one.
Well, I know when they passed Romney Care in MA they did extend Medicaid to some childless adults, which was actually a saving grace of the policy, so, that’s something.
The GOP talking points are fear and hate, as usual. They can threaten to kill everything and everyone… or when they come down to earth and use more sane methods such as debate, legislate, and govern- they can try to overturn the legislation- which the president will simply veto if it even passes. Even if he’s not reelected, they’ll need to pass through congress any attempt to overturn national healthcare.
If the bill empowers insurance why are the ins companies spending hundreds of millions to campaign against it? You still haven’t answered that. I really want to know.
The “cost” of this thing is indeed a talking point. And I’ll gladly take it on, if the Demo’s won’t. Yes, it will cost at least $940 Billion over ten years. Probably more. That’s around 100 billion per year, to subsidize Americans to get coverage who could not otherwise afford it. So yes, sacrifices will need to be made as a society for us to pay for this- and no politician should hide from this fact. We will need to have a few less wars. We might want to spend less on fantasy military pie-in-the-sky programs like Star Wars was, and buy a few less F35 fighter bombers than the 2600 planned. Perhaps 200 less. They cost 80 million a pop. How much more would that allow for us to pay for national healthcare then? Do the math.
Yes, it gives a lot of money to private companies- which is unfortunate that we don’t YET have a public plan, but I will gladly support one if it is drawn up in Congress as a separate bill (or so I’d say if I were one of them). Private insurance is 1/6th of the economy, and they’re going to need to hire an awful lot of people now, and they will pay those people better than the government would.
So who is the loser here? Unless you’re an extremely selfish individual who only cares about the world inside the walls of your house, the answer is NOBODY. No matter what the cost, universal healthcare for all in this country is money well spent. Better spent on that, than almost anything else we dumb humans can think of. It will save possibly 40,000 lives each year, plus the lives of the unborn children to, apparently. No amount of money is an excuse to not do this. As a society, we would refuse to do so at our peril.
I dont care if it doesnt match my political leanings perfectly, my principals and leanings are frivolous compared to saving that many people. And the same goes for all of you. It’s going to pass, today, and if I’m the only happy one on this whole website, then so be it. I’m not happy for myself or for congress or the president. I’m relieved that 30 million people get insurance. I make plenty of money. And if you have the time to bitch about this on the internet, so do you. I can afford it, you can afford it, it’s not going to bankrupt anybody. Grow up.
The children of the 60s have a genetic predisposition against protests, due to the way they are framed in the media. Even the famous Sheehan protests in Crawford TX they managed to use a clip of some dippy-hippie chick singing with a guitar ala Joan Baez.
masslib – my popcorn comment was about how pissed romney would be. i’m not an advocate of romneycare -i’m an advocate of single payor, but would have settled for a public option.
HEALTHY kids
dead PARENTS
BRILLANT OBIE!
If you have no children, and you don’t feel a loss, you’re childfree. I feel no sense of loss…
But it’s NOT just a strategy. Try being an adult without children and getting on Medi-Cal – not gonna happen. The fact of the matter is, other than our money, time and votes, nobody gives a flying shit about the childfree, despite our growing numbers. Furthermore, there is a great deal of societal pressure upon us to bend over and take it again and Again and AGAIN. We are being systematically robbed because of a socially acceptable LIFESTYLE CHOICE others make.
ENOUGH!
I’m not a part of any fucking village.
Hey, maybe just for old time’s sake they can keep voting open for an extra hour or seven and pass out little presentos to PhRMA, AHIP and others just like Hastert did during the Medicare vote. Not that they really need too, now that Bishop Stupak has grown a Uterus and will conceive and deliver in nine short months a little Mini-Me Pope.
It’s so refreshing to see our politics being run from Vatican City. Maybe we can save a few bucks by laying off all the Capital Police and replacing them with Swiss Guard, those uniforms are just da bomb!
I have many furry children,guess they dont count huh
Rev, if the generosity of spirit was a two-way street, that’d be ok with me, but it’s not. It never has been and it never will be. And people with children do NOT care about people like me, it’s totally ok for childfree people to die in poverty.
So Rev, please tell me a reason I should be motivated to altruism toward people who don’t care if I live or die?
Note to the swarming buffoons of Trad Media: “pragmatism” does not mean actually cutting the baby in half.
Well, did you march in favor of single payer or a public option?
If you want to have a voice, open your mouth.
Why don’t they just vote and be done with it? These lying bastards have had sufficient time to grandstand. I got stuff to do in the garage! Stupak got the fig leaf of an executive order and who knows what else from Rahm to shut up and fall in line. I feel like I’m gonna’ vomit.
SY: I, too have furry critters and no, they do not count. WE don’t count. I’ve heard so many politicians yammering on and on about CHILDREN, I’m about ready to PUKE!
I’m fed up with this shit. I’ve had it. I suspect, I will never vote again.
Romney is just pissed because suddenly Repubs don’t like their own 1994 health proposal.
I still find it the height of irony to hear Democrats(dean not you) brag about how they passed a republican bill so how can republicans complain.
I am with you on Medicare opt-in, single payer, but living with this bill in MA, I’m sure that is still where we are headed.
My apologies…I was referring to progressive protests against the Senate health care bill exclusively. It’s clear from the posts here and elsewhere that there’s plenty of opposition to the Senate health care bill by progressives, despite what Kos would have us believe.
But, progressives appear to be completely absent from the sort of street protest that is their heritage.
Has anyone seen progressives in the street in D.C. shouting what’s being said here at Firedoglake?
I sure as hell haven’t seen it…
If the Republicans had a common-sense plan? What was preventing them from implementing them when they were in power.
Anytime I give time or money or effort to something, I always demand to know up front what’s in it for me.
I’m childfree or whatever your words for that are.
But I am part of a village, and so are you. That village is part of a town, which is part of a district, which is part of a state, which is part of a nation. Every man is not an island. Whose words are those? I agree that we should be able to have a benefit with social programs, which is why I support universal HCR- because it’s universal. But I understand and accept that part of being in a society of 310 million people means I have to “bend over” and make some room for others. The alternative is to run away and live in a cabin on a mountain somewhere all alone, and hunt for your food. Like Thoreau did. But there isn’t much space left, there’s so many of us in this nation. So you can’t choose to be alone, you’re part of the society, learn to deal with it.
Yes, this is tragically comic.
You know better than that. *g*
same here………LIARS POKER i hate them all
HOPEY CHANGEY the most
dont the fukkin children
DESERVE HEALTH PARENTS????????????
guess not
Book Salon up at the Mothership with Charles Stross’s sci-fi novel The Trade of Queens: Book Six of the Merchant Princes (Hardcover) hosted by Paul Krugman
NO. I will not learn to live with it until the childfree are treated with the same respect reserved for people with children. We are systematically robbed. We are the last unprotected minority.
If you are ok with those people who don’t care about you bending you over ~~~EDITED IN MODERATION~~~, that’s fine, but I’ve had enough, and I’m tired of being told to shut up about it.
~~~ModNote: Let us please keep this clearly about health care.~~~
Well, who would organize these protests? Laraza is organized. But which left leaning org. was going to organize opposition to the Senate bill? MoveOn? Nope. HCAN’T? Nope. OFA? Bwahaha. I seriously think half the liberals I know think this bill means they can buy Medicare, so, ya know, protests usually, not always, but usually require organization.
Note though, I didn’t see any marches in support. they keep comparing this thing to civil rights, where are the hundreds of thousands of supporters?
Well, now that it is essentially a done deal, it is too bad for both sides. A real opportunity was missed.
For my side, the Senate bill is certainly much better than the House bill. So, in that sense we “won.” But, really, no one won. OK, the insurance companies won.
Another dirty little secret, this bill requires that Congress in the future pass another $114 billion for funding the structure to administer it. That is according to the CBO.
Oh, wait, no one told you that. Well yes, that means the $138 billion in deficit reduction is already reduced to $24 billion. But, more importantly, if that future Congress–after Nov. 2010, GOP–does not fund this bureaucratic nightmare, where does that leave it?
Aside from that, all Harry Reid promised in his letter to Nancy was a vote on it. He didn’t specifically promise WHAT would be voted on or that the House changes would be approved.
The Senate is going to change the House fix it. And, a little more egg will be on everyone’s faces.
“Why don’t they just vote and be done with it? These lying bastards have had sufficient time to grandstand. I got stuff to do in the garage! Stupak got the fig leaf of an executive order and who knows what else from Rahm to shut up and fall in line. I feel like I’m gonna’ vomit.”
Well said, right there with you on all that.
Not sure what you mean – and the thing is, I don’t have a problem with health care for children and people with children – I have a problem for them being given preferential treatment *I* have to pay extra for. I don’t see Rev Deb or anyone else stepping up to pay for my cat’s kidney treatment. Until there is a true quid pro quo, I will be pissed about people with children.
Even George Carlin, a parent himself, got it. Certainly Bill Maher, another childfree adult, does.
masslib – I’m with you – I’m appalled at how this current bill just guarantees the health care companies more customers. I was uninsured and uninsurable when I had my own business several years ago and illness that put me in the hospital left me $30k in debt. Now I have GREAT insurance through my employer because it is a large enough company to get us decent rates, and the company pays the entire cost of my insurance since I’m only covering myself (not a spouse or kids). However, I will never turn my back on the folks who can’t get insurance, or can’t afford it.
This is the biggest moral issue of our time and our “judeo-christian” nation is abdicating its responsibilities. The anti-reform “christians” bug me the most – they clain they are trying to live christ-like lives but they are not willing to spend our nation’s money to insure their poor and uninsurable neighbors. They blatantly refuse to follow Jesus’ commandment to “love they neighbor as theyself.”
Of course, atheists like myself are the ones who are alleged to have no moral standards.
Sigh.
This is like a casting call to see who can give the most dramatic reading for unanimous consent to revise and extend blah blah blah…
hey once those “children ” reach 26…poor thangs are now ON THEIR OWN and no longer children in corporate eyes,in the military they reach 18 and thats it!
Recognizing that this bill is far from what we had hoped for, is anyone here at least happy that we’re taking this first step? I want to hang around with you all but I plan on celebrating this. Is anyone with me?
Excellent point, masslib…
There doesn’t seem to be any support for this monumental “achievement” in the streets,…does there?
why does AGE DISCRIMINATION not apply to this vile bill?…since +50s will be triple charged
No way. You own this, enjoy it if you can.
“sing it, Louise!”
hmmm, I may have to adopt that….
Agreed. I live under Romney Care and still can’t afford insurance. I was really counting on at least a Medicare buy-in. Oh well.
Please, let’s try to not attack each other. It is possible to come to differing conclusions, in an honest fashion.
Yes, sorry.
What is with calling Mr Stupak the “Forced Birth King” ???
That’s kind of sick, ain’t it? I can’t say whether I’m pro choice or life, I always say “choose life” and that works well enough… there are times when my arm can be twisted and I understand some kind of circumstance where a woman has to have an abortion. As horrible as that kind of thing is, nowhere in the law of this land- even with this health care bill, is such a thing illegal. Stupak isn’t forcing you to have the baby. He’s forcing the government funded insurance to NOT PAY FOR IT WITH AMERICAN’s TAX DOLLARS. You are “forced” to have an abortion by circumstance? Okay, have it- if you only have the federally funded plan- then it is not covered under your insurance. But you can still have it. If it’s that important to you. The executive order isn’t illegalizing it. It’s saying “Not covered”.
You have the option to pay out of pocket. You have the option to pay a little more for private insurance, which somewhere there’s probably a policy that covers abortions. They won’t even be able to deny you that coverage due to preexisting conditions, so there you go.
If none of these things work for you, and you have the baby… a child is born into the world. I fully understand your rights and all, but hey, a baby being born… is it really that horrible???
Oh God.
Nope. Pretty quiet out there. I think the teabaggers make Congress nostalgic for the days when they were actually passing tough legislation for the greater good. They seem to have forgotten when you actually pass stuff for the greater good, people show up to celebrate.
Because people 50+ (like me) are more likely to need health care than someone in their 30s. It’s just like now, only no lube!
Attack! Attack! Death by insult!
Yes, it is.
There are too many people on the planet. We are killing the planet. People start out as babies. I personally love babies but if my daughters don’t have any then it is for the best. Babies are designed to make us fall in love with them. We need fewer babies to love.
It’s not going to bankrupt anyone except the 30 million who will now have insurance they can’t afford. You may make plenty of money–most of those 30 million don’t, and the premiums and co-payments are going to beyond the reach of most of them. Many will be required to spend up to 10% of income on premiums, and as much as another 10% on co-payments. Tell me how many families who are uninsured today can afford to spend nearly 20% of their income no matter how urgent the medical emergency. Many of those who are uninsured have pre-existing conditions–and yes, they can be covered now, at 3 times the regular premium. People are NOT going to be able to afford this, and there’s going to be a real backlash. As the old saying goes, the devil is in the details.
Well, I find that an interesting comment from one who has children.
Humans are like genetically inclined to baby making. Just a fact.
Yes, I’m right here. I’ve been here all along. I sense I’m alone. I’m both saddened, and somewhat encouraged/pleased in some faint way because I know a whole lot of people will be elligible for subsidies to get insurance. The mechanics of how it will work for them I don’t know, and honestly, I have ins of my own which is quite good- so I’m not in need of any of it.
But I’m glad we’re taking the step and utterly can’t believe that an internet haven for so-called-liberal side are cussing, hating, and sounding just like the teabaggers against this (invariably because it doesn’t have a “public option”) I’ve made my argument about this many times. It doesn’t matter to anyone. Selfishness is what this is. So somewhat sad, but somewhat happy, and very depressed, all at the same time.
I don’t think there’s a drug that can help me…
Not this human. I am hardwired to NOT breed.
The details of which you speak…
Pesky little buggers.
kills me to say this..
Go Republicans! Obstruct this bailout to death!
Greetings, fellow
CitizensCustomers!What a tragic day.
“I don’t think there’s a drug that can help me…”
I heartily recommend crack cocaine!
I’m torn. It is great to provide insurance for an additional 30 million people but I fear that AHIP and big Pharma are by far the biggest beneficiaries. It is nice to have some regulations in place, but I don’t see a regulator in sight.
It is a Sophie’s Choice.
Yep, let’s hope they have an evil plot to kill it.
It’s not because it doesn’t have a public option.
That’s just a small part of it. It’s that with Mandates, a lack of cost control, and everything else, this ball does far more harm than good.
And if you can’t see that and this “haven” bothers you you can go celebrate over a Kos with the rest of the kool-aid drinkers.
I love my kids. I wanted them. I believe firmly in zero population control so I only had two. Since then the planet has gotten sadder and more polluted. I have overcome my personal genetic programming cause I believe it is in the best interests of humans generally to have few children. And in countries were woman have equal power and good health care they have fewer children. Simple fact.
And it didn’t have to be that, Obama lied to all of us and sold us out to AHIP. This wasn’t inevitable, it was planned from day 1 by Obama and his corporate paymasters.
God what a lying fucking sellout.
Ahh…
The Harry Reid letter. No signatories…
And, of course…Nancy Pelosi desperately sought to avoid an on-the-record, roll call vote on the Senate health care bill, hoping to employ the “deem and pass” procedure.
Although it’s the Senate bill being considered today…Harry Reid still couldn’t or wouldn’t provide the names of Senators willing to vote for the “fixes” to this legislation through reconciliation.
I sincerely hope that House members are prepared for the possibility that the bill they vote for today will be the FINAL bill…with, of course, any adjustments agreed to by Bart Stupak and the White House.
Seconded.
I’m torn too. It’s not the bill I wanted. OTOH, my dem rep is going to vote no and I’m so furious that I hope he gets challenged in a primary.
He said ‘we can do better’. When exactly? Start here with this bill and we’ll continue to fight.
It is nice to have some regulations in place, but I don’t see a regulator in sight.
I think that some sort of entity is being set up to “observe”. Maybe even “advise”.
That oughta do it, right?
Solai – I’m honestly struggling internally about whether to celebrate that SOMETHING has been done. MAYBE once this ousy plan is in place and it’s clear that the maximum costs are unaffordable, and a lot of people are still uninsured but are paying the penalty to the IRS for not buying coverage, MAYBE then we will see a change that leads to a public option. And of course the insurance companies will continue to make big profits by controlling what meds and procedures we can get. I also feel betrayed by Obama because he didn’t fight for the public option.
So I can’t celebrate THIS bill, but I want to celebrate getting SOMETHING done, in the hope that it will get improved over time.
I’m just horribly torn.
Don’t hold your breath on that lasting long at all. Even before the bill has been voted on, I’ve seen a half dozen articles on how “well, gee, ya know, those subsidies are just too darn expensive so we’re going to have to restrain them and cut them for most folks”
How do you know we are killing the planet? With babies? No, with automobile exhaust, industrial waste, deforestation, not with babies.
Perhaps you’re joking, so I go easy on you. Try visiting India. I’ve been there a few times. It’s a nation that represents a dystopian vision of our future- of extreme urban life, extreme poverty, and masses and masses of people. They all have kids over there, even if they’re gay, they marry and have kids. Lots of them. India’s doom was predicted many times over the course of the 20th century, in fact, they were almost fulfilling the prophecy by the mid 1970s. But go and see what it is- it’s crowded, hot, stinks horrible, there are 1 billion plus people and lots of hunger BUT it still functions. There has never been a famine since independence, in India. They have government hospitals there. And much more private corporate corruption than we do. But it’s still going, people still manage to smile, and each year they produce enough food to export. Say what you will of the poverty, but I think our society has a long way to go before it goes over the edge or even gets to that point. If India can handle a billion, so can we. And the first step to being able to do it is national healthcare.
The only way to stop people from having kids is to stop them from having sex. That hasn’t worked in 1.4 million years, which included a variety of forms of capital punishment and religious experiments. So I guess we’ll have to take the consequences, which is population growth.
You recommend taking crack? Is it covered by my insurance? Can I get a presciption?
Oilfieldguy: After I hit “submit comment” for my comment about how torn I am, I immediately saw your post that begins with how you are “torn.” I bet there are a LOT of us. I’d like to see somebody do a poll to find out.
Shame on you for saying that. I have been a member of this community for years. I have donated to get dems elected as well as for FDL causes. Now, just because my opinion differs from yours, you call me names and ask me to leave? Shame on you.
Not me—you are on your own.
India?
You might want to reconsider your comparison.
And while I disagree with your take overall, I respect your right to have it.
Have you ever had a child? Been pregnant? Do you even know how dangerous pregnancy is for a woman or what it does to her body? If the answer is no to the question then you might want to do a little reading bfore weighing in on something that affects half the population.
And when are they going to get to fixing it?
Immigration reform is announced as next and the Dems have already proven that they are incapable of handling two major debates at the same time. Add on to that the insane destruction that HCR has caused their poll numbers, they’re never going to get around to fixing this piece of shit. they won’t ever want to talk about health care again.
How did this turn into a people who have kids suck debate?
Good Heavens people!
Which will go on until famine, plague, war or lack of water kills humanity off.
I believe the ONLY way to be green, is to not breed. The most environmentally-friendly thing any human being can do is to refrain from breeding.
Furthermore, if you have even one child, I better not ever hear one peep about driving a pickup truck, not recycling every aluminum beer can or burning trash in my back yard, because I could dump used motor oil into the storm drain on a daily basis and my lifestyle would STILL be greener than any person who bears even one child.
Be green. Get voluntarily sterilized.
the comment was in no way directed at you, look again.
He edited the comment afterwards but he was attacking people on this site for being of the mind that the bill should die.
And in the face of that I reserve the right to say no..you don’t like us you can leave.
But yes, I do feel if you want this bill to pass you are doing more of a disservice to the country than helping it. So no, shame on you for selling out and wanting this bill.
I wish this blog had an ignore button.
Because some of us are fed up with having to pay for YOUR lifestyle choices. We’ll be left out of ANY health care “reform” while you and your children get OUR share of the benefits. That’s how.
And it’s about time.
Thank you.
Before this gets personal, let’s stand back and remember what we are here for.
Which would also happen with: Single Payer and Public Option. A public plan would need to of course, be fully run by and funded by, Uncle Sam.
Which means when Uncle Sam has an Elephant pin on his shirt, he’ll restrict and cut funding. In fact, if the public plan were to be created, any republican administration will work so damned hard to starve it of funding, lay off hundreds of its employees, and manage it poorly by not enforcing all the rules and regs or hiring good people- that it will be a huge, burdensome waste of money, and people wouldn’t benefit from it at all. Coverage would be denied (oops, clerical error!) and people would be turned away from hospitals. Why would this happen? They’d force it to fail, would run it so badly and then point at it and say, hey people look how bad the public insurance is! It’s losing money! And people would look and say, yes, it is, and agree- let’s take it apart!
But, you surely think that’s impossible, eh? You think that because public option or single payer Medicare for all is better to your principals, that the Republicans would play fair, and allow it to function as it should, benefiting people and making society better. It would not work because THEY DONT WANT IT TO. Wake up and realize that.
Taking money away from insurance subsidies- now that is harder. How many lobbyists do you think will knock on doors and say, “Oh thanks for taking away our subsidies for this healthcare exchange”. No. They lobbyists will fight tooth and nail to keep them- because as long as they can offer the cheap gov’t plan, they can talk people into the “gold” version of that plan which they create- which costs more, and upsell! That’s business.
I’m certain it will be a struggle, but stop being cynical about it to the EXTREMES OF THE EARTH. All of you are, on here, it’s ridiculous.
its not
the kids meme…gives our president and ALL THE MILLIONAIRES in congress cover to steal every last penny from your pocket.
without healthy parents aunts and uncles healthy kids suffer anyway…and mebbe ma and pa ,dont even have the gas money to drive their kids to the doctor
It will be difficult to maintain a cohesive progressive movement after this. We just spent 8 months of Lucy jerking away the football every chance she had. The left is deeply fractured over the public option. One side declared corporate sellouts while the other is teabagger friendly.
True animosity exists among the Democratic wing of the Democratic party. It is my hope that when the gavel comes down on this and it is signed into law, we can come together to force corrections to this bill.
Feelings are really hurt right now. Kossacks and Firepups are at each others throat. When this is over, it is my hope that Jane and Markos can issue a joint statement with goals going forward. We won’t all agree, but, to use an old phrase, if we don’t hang together, we will all hang separately.
You aren’t paying for any of my life style choices. Seriously, you are way out of line and insulting too.
Bzzzzrp! Wrong!
start over
Gotta jump in here. We do not have children. I pay taxes that support the local schools, I have no problem with that…it is part of my contribution to the community of people. I pay many other taxes that go to the benefit of the many. I also pay taxes that go to your right wing wars and that I have a real problem with.
Don’t worry about these people. You can see how anger and hate really are, and how it exists on either side of the aisle. When people have no argument, when they have nothing that holds water, what do they do? They say “go take crack!” like they just did to me, and call names and tell you to leave. It means they’ve lost. They’ve got NOTHING.
We’re getting this bill donefor the American People. Let them hate, “I welcome their hatred”- FDR.
as Keith O stated in his reprise of his healthcare comment…it has come to in this country ,those without funds or subsidy,will just get sick and die..period
I actually really hope that does not happen.
I would prefer Jane stand up, call Markos the Reaganite that he is, and say he’s not representative of what we stand for. Because he in now way reflects my values, and I want nothing to do with him.
@103, is that english? I read your comment like 3 times and I couldn’t make out a word of what you were trying to actually say.
FDR hated the big banks and corps,he and his sainted wife are rolling over in their graves
please do not evoke the name of FDR
Yes, I am paying and with this health care bill, I’m sure I’ll be paying more, until I die with no insurance. And the worst part of it is you don’t give a shit.
People without children carry a greater percentage of the burden because of the government benefits people with children are “entitled” to. If you take the tax credits and deductions you are allowed to take on your income tax return, you are allowing the childfree to pay for a part of your child’s rearing because we do not get to reduce our taxes in the same way.
That you are unwilling to see that is far more insulting than anything I could say to you. But I have no doubt this health care “reform” will exclude the childfree, just like every other government benefit does.
I’ve actually stated multiple actual arguments about why the bill is bad..and yet all we hear from you is
“they will fix it later”
I then presented facts as to why that is not anywhere near likely..and now you say I’m calling you a crack head?
Which one of us is using facts and logic here hrm?
Wrong? Start over? Go ahead- start me over.
I’m waiting.
Still waiting….
Sometimes I eat babies for dinner.
Pass that Bill !!
Support Health Care Reform !!!
We have waited a generation or longer….
Now is the time… gitterdone !!
I am not a right winger in any way, and I suspect I was protesting wars before you were born.
However, in California, an impoverished childfree person is not eligible for ANY government-sponsored health care. People with children are afforded the health care the childfree cannot get, and it’s very obviously ok with you and the majority of childed people that we die in poverty.
On this day, I believe it’s a good occasion to bring the childfree, who are ignored by every aspect of American society, into focus and point out that we will almost certainly, again, be excluded from any sort of benefit while the childed, will get the lion’s share of the benefits. It’s time for that to change.
You invoke Larry the cable guy?
Man I am so happy I disagree with you. What’s next, gonna quote Jeff Foxworthy as to why the bill should pass?
Read about the ramifications of this bill–many people aren’t going to be able to afford it even with subsidies. Whether or not the subsidies remain is beside the point for most of them. And I’m sorry, I can’t believe the subsidies will not be a prime target for every deficit hawk, both Republican and Democratic.
Oh, you Irish! Ha! Please pass the cabbage.
The subsidies are a joke.
Getting $400 insurance for $300 is a moot point, if you can’t afford either.
And people living paycheck to paycheck can’t.
This is going to really hurt the lower middle class, but no one other the FDL seems to care.
I never said they’d fix it later. I said they CAN.
Whose decision is that to make, by the way? I’ve got plenty of facts here, and I’ve got National Healthcare behind me which is going to pass. What have you got?
If you want it “fixed” (read my comment above to why I think ANY national healthcare will lose money no matter what) then you need to elect people who would fix it. Who would that be? If you trash your own party’s line, you trash incumbents who support this bill in primaries- you almost guarantee that they lose- and thus guarantee that what little of HCR we’re about to have is destroyed by the right wingers who take over. So which one of us indeed?
I back healthcare. You and everyone on here can twist it into whatever knot of crazy failing of logic you want to, I still back healthcare, I back the president, and I back the Democratic party. I back fixing the bill, but that is not the issue today. That is tomorrow’s issue. END OF STORY.
Jane Hamsher is upstairs!
White House Released Executive Order to Media Without Showing to Members of Pro-Choice Caucus
I think Markos is a progressive. He just made a political calculation about the public option and support for the President Obama early on. Jane decided to take a different approach. It maybe that certain items may mesh and others may not between Kossacks and Pups, I don’t know. But I hope the gavel nails the coffin shut on the over heated rhetoric coming from both sides of the same progressive coin.
Even if Markos is The Great Orange Satan.
As am I. At 18 much to the chagrin of my parents who were sure I would change my mind someday, I had my “wires” cut so my body matched my brain. I have never regreted that decision.
And yes, we childfree folks do pay a high price for it both socially and economically. In my younger days, I used to advocate that we deserved a tax credit for not having children, higher pay for not having to leave work for one kid reason or another and other things. Even when people agreed with me it was pure folly.
I’m not going to comment on your overall debate.
But he is right about the childless paying more then the childed.
My co-worker who earns exaclty the same amount as me but has a child paid less than half of what I did in taxes this year.
I am paying for him to raise his child, and you do well not to ignore that.
Actually, and especially after reading the comments this week, I totally agree that fewer babies should be born. Considering.
But, everyone go adopt a dozen kittens. Grief!
I disagree.
What good is an ally that will instantly sell you out the moment saint Obama is in trouble? That’s not an ally at all, that is a liability.
We do very well to get away from Kos. His is not our friend, we are not allies.
the enemy of my enemy is not my friend.
I’m very active in the single payer movement here in CA.
Other than the few hundred bucks of tax credit, how do you pay more than I? I’m trying to understand. That was my original question.
Lordy lordy, I wish I had been able to find a urologist to cauterize my vas when I was that age. It took me until age 35 to find one. “You’re too young to make a decision like that.”
When I look back at the time, pre snip, it is a MIRACLE I was not “oopsed.” I am thankful every time I gaze into the eyes of my kitties, that I was that lucky.
It’s a marvel to me how people cannot see we pay a greater share for their children, through taxes, than they do. We are forced to subsidize their lifestyle choices. And in this health-care chaos, I have no doubt we will again, be excluded.
Sucks, doesn’t it?
this is where we differ.
I do not back the Democratic party, the president or any “person”
I back issues. And the entire Democratic party is not only on the wrong side of this, they are lying that they will do more later to get support.
No sir, you are wrong, and when you are proven wrong I hope you remember that.
You answered your own question.
There’s an infinte number of tax credits, tax breaks, subsidies, etc that you can get that I cannot. Where do you think all that comes from? From the wallets of the people who don’t get those breaks and subsidies.
I have not personally attacked you, please do not lump me in with that. It is disingenuous.
Okey dokey. Thanks.
You know too many kitties in the world kill off the birdies. Just saying.
Just for the record, this place has been hijacked twice in as many days where the original thread gets taken over by someone with a completely o/t comment. From there it becomes rancorous and unpleasant.
I enjoy coming here to get myself a bit of thinking different from my own radical way of looking at things, but we, and I mean every single one of us, either have to stop responding to and feeding negative posters, or just accept that any intelligent dialogues attempted will be hijacked and the moderators are gonna have to work over time. Personally, I’d like RBG to have an easier time than has been seen here lately.
And I’m not holding my breath on this monstrosity getting fixed any time soon, not with the Dems losing control of congress.
Pass this bill today…no more waiting, we have waited a generation.
Insurance Executives will lose millions in bonus money this year if this bill passes. Those that support Health Care say “let em eat cake”.
The time is now. Pass this bill….gitterdone…
Do your children go to public school? The childfree pay disproportionately for that. In a world of true equality, parents would have to pay MORE taxes, because their children use up for more government resources than the average childfree person does.
Every time I pay any kind of tax, I am subsidizing your lifestyle choice, because I reap none of the benefits of that portion of my taxes that go to subsidizing your child. And obviously, that’s ok with you, but as far as I’m concerned, all it is, is state-sanctioned stealing. And when you and your child get your government benefits, while I am other childfree people are left out, I have no doubt you won’t give it a second thought.
The sense of entitlement really is endless….
You are absolutely right. I will stop. I think that we are all a little goofy.
And I remember my parents expressing resentment at those ‘friends’ of theirs who didn’t have children but had ‘nice things’ and saying that ‘they wouldn’t be able to afford if they had children’.
I don’t have children but do recognize that a society is generally made up of ‘families’ and that societies seek to preserve their being. And I look at the physical appearance and shape of those friends I have who did have children and can visibly see how the stress has affected their lives.
While, at the same time and despite a dissolute life, people are surprised when they find out my actual age.
Your point is made, your views clear.
I’m sorry I ever asked the question. I guess I really do know the answer already.
Yes I did already explain my opinion on the deficit hawk thing, though i didn’t use that phrase- in comment 103. Which apparently doesnt make sense to anyone. I type extremely fast and probably screw my sentances up because my brain is moving faster than my fingers can.
I am worried that the subsidies will not be enough, yes. But, that issue is due to the fact of how much they wanted to blow on this thing. They had to keep it under a trillion, and that meant cutting every corner possible.
The only way to sell universal HCR was to make it somewhat less than insalely expensive and unaffordable. If the subsidies were to be more, for that many people, from day one, the price tag goes up, and the number of Congressmen who support it goes down.
Thus it could not pass.
The important thing is that the bill ESTABLISHES subsidies. Like minimum wage, a subsidy can always be raised. It can be done through Reconciliation to! So, there are lots of options with this thing, it’s a start, only a start. BUT if it failed to pass, where are we then? With nothing. No subsidy, no plan, nowhere. So it must pass.
My children are grown and I paid for them to go to private school. See how entitled I am?
But, save the last dance for me.
Rest in Peace, Margaret Moth
Have you ckd Jane’s myths about health care reform? Look at how much families will pay for their health care insurance. They will have little discretionary income left. Just having insurance doesn’t solve all problems. Health care still costs—even if you have insurance. My biggest concern about this bill is the mandate that forces people who can’t afford it to buy insurance.
You haven’t proven anything man. You are wrong. And I have no more facts than you do, to say so.
I don’t care about whom you support, I stated who I support. And you simply stating that the Democrats are “lying” is just flashy statement. I watch and listen to them every day, and with the exception of Eric Massa, none of them have yet told me a lie. They may have changed what they were able to pass, what they are able to do, but lie they do not.
Go ahead, keep attacking people on here and saying how smart you think you are. I’ve already said I welcome it. You prove nothing, you speak madness, and though I laugh, you sway my opinion not an inch. Or anyone else’s.
Be more polite to people, please.
It is clear you have lost an argument when you start demanding how ‘correct’ your views are, and how backed you are by facts. Do what I do, don’t brag about having facts, simply explain what you think and leave it at that. Forget about proving anything, none of this proves a damn thing.
In other words, shut your childfree mouth, you don’t count around here.
Typical.
I am saddened to read this. She was a great journalist and a wonderful free spirit.
The world is a lesser place because of her loss. Rest in peace, Margaret Moth.
I am wondering how one can be torn about this debacle? This is NOT “progress” towards single payer for a thousand reasons, not the least of which is that the medical/industrial complex was just handed a 13 figure bailout which will further cement their control over us, the “consumer”. It’s like handing the guy sticking up the 7 – 11 a belt fed 50 cal and telling him to come back later when there’s more money in the till. Now it’s gonna’ be EASIER to arrest him?! The only way to have made any progress would have been to introduce true competition to the insurance company. Repealing their anti-trust exemption, while small, would have been a “step” in the right direction. Let them soften each other up. But, they couldn’t even do that. The insurance companies don’t even trust each other. They are all left in their own little fiefdoms and we are the serfs. Today ranks right up there with Citizens United.
There’s alot to be said for living a dissolute life, not the least of which is that it makes one ageless. ; )
I don’t think you’ve explained how it works that in every other industrialized country, who in fact have better health care outcomes than here, those systems are universal.
Those are working systems, and utterly refute the crazy way we do it in the US. The only reason we do it as crazy as we do, is to maintain corporate profits.
except for the progressive caucus who signed a letter swearing they would not back a bill with no PO…they lied.
And the pro choice caucus that signed a letter saying they wouldn’t vote for a bill that restricts abortion..they lied.
And the house hispanic caucus that wouldn’t support a bill that restricted immigrants…they lied.
Man that’s a lot of Democratic liars, and I could go on.
Where’s your facts to refute that?
I’m polite when it’s called for. Nothing you have done deserves politeness, only gentle head shaking and hoping that one day you wake up.
So your argument is I shouldn’t bring up those pesky facts in debate?
Nope, I’m leaving that one there. Don’t worry ladies and gentlemen, according to this guy facts don’t matter, how wonderful!
And, I still wanna’ know what Stupak got? An executive order restating current law doesn’t strike me as near enough for a man of such “principle”.
None of the benefits? So I’m guessing that when my children are old enough to work that you intend on forgoing the Social Security taxes they will pay to cover your old age? Furthermore, society benefits from an educated workforce. Plan on going to the doctors, the pharmacy, or having anything to do with the outside world? Uh because if you are then you are BENEFITTING from the educational system. Doctors, lawyers, pharmacists and a myriad of other professional fields require an educated workforce. Unless you plan on NEVER needing one of said professional then it is in your interest to ensure they get a decent primary education so they continue on to a secondary education.
Hey hold on there- I totally agree with and support in spirit, the same thing you do. (really) I just was able to get on board with what we have, reluctantly, and refuse to go against it…
Look at what I said in comment 103 (which is poorly written I know) about what I thought would happen with a public plan.
-Part of the reason those countries are able to have successful government healthcare is- one, they did it a lot earlier than us, back when healthcare was wayyyy cheaper. Some of those countries, like Sweden, Norway, estalished universal care simply because there was no private option. With their systems well entrenched, it’s much easier to grow them over time. Not so, in our case. Those countries are a lot smaller than we are, they don’t have 300 million people. Our national coverage would need to take 32 million people in one big lump, which is more people than in all of Scandinavia combined, and close to entire the population of Canada. It really can’t be done with the wave of a magic “public option” or “single payer” wand. Those would have cost us a lot more to establish, even though they would save money in the long run. It’s a tough sell to tell people that something will be successful in 10 years. But then ask them to swallow a giant cost today, and they freak.
Yes, our system is the way it is, to maintain corporate profits. Totally true- and because of that, we can’t easily dismantle it in one day. We can’t pass a law illegalizing the entire insurance business, which is 1/6th of our economy, whether we like it or not. I support establishing a public plan as a separate bill, but nobody who writes for this website will admit that it won’t happen because the votes won’t be there, and they’ve committed themselves to running from office the very people who could have done so. When they try to tear the party to pieces, they guarantee it will lose to Republicans. And they’ve made their intentions quite clear…
I’ve been told to shut up by the lurking mod so I may not say any more. I stand by what I said, but it would be nice if you actually had an original thought rather than falling back on tired rhetoric.
Pssssssst. Tired rhethoric is whining about how unfair taxes are bud.
If you don’t like paying for other people’s kids you can always move to Phillipines or some other third world country because quite frankly I’m tired of the incessant whining about how unfair “taxes” are. The idea that the government can tax is part of our constitution. If you don’t like it, move to another country.
Spoken like a breeder. *YAWN.*
The sense of entitlement never goes away, does it?
By the way, your child is far more likely to be a welfare recipient or serial killer than any of the professional disciplines you mentioned.
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I’m really glad you don’t have children. The gene pool they’d be working out of seems a bit inferior.
~~~ModNote: Name-calling helps no one understand you, and can result in your comment being removed.~~~
Moderator,
I’d remove the post that calls a person a breeder then.
It’s offensive to anyone to be termed as such. Women are far more then the sum of the children they raise.
Not if those children define who said woman is, and by the way you speak, you qualify.
Read this and then let me know when you have an original thought.