I honestly think the message being delivered by the Universe in this situation is very valuable. I wonder how many of us have the courage and depth of consciousness to understand it?

Thanks to the Blue Dogs & of course the Rethugs this process is going to be very close. The Dems are determined this time, to get it done they believe this is survival for the party. The question is why are we acting like these people are traitors? HCR for what is is MUST pass. Geez Anyone with half a brain would have seen this coming.Now we should start building alliances within the party to fix it!

So why after HCR already pass is Sanders afraid to derail a bill that has already passed?

Well that’s that. He was the one last obstacle from the left. It’s been like dominos. No one can stop this bill but conservatives.

A bill was a must-pass, but not THIS bill. This is the immoral corporate-bailout bill that’s going to lead to a political and economic disaster that can be laid squarely at the feet of Barack Obama.

Jon, it is understandable that you might feel this way. When you get a lot of feedback disagreeing with you, I hope you draw the correct lesson from it. You won’t be proved wrong; however, the fact that so many people are making the effort to bring their disapproval to your attention says something in itself.

I believe it expresses a kind of consternation that you could imagine that broadcasting your opinion on Bernie Sanders in this way could have any practical use. We can all see now that we don’t have enough of our people in Congress, not nearly enough.

This is an election year. I end up focusing more and more time on political action in years like this. I don’t want to end up deciding that reading your posts is a waste of time. Think about it, would you?

The Dems are determined this time, to get it done they believe this is survival for the party.

Do you actually believe a word you just said? If I understand what you are saying the Democrats will do better if they pass a bill that is unpopular. After the bill passes why are the democrats going to try and fix it, when they could fix it now?

Does anybody find it a little strange that we end up getting the worst bills, the most viloations of our rights and civil liberties when we have a democratic congress?
For example telecom immunity, forced to buy private insurance, abortion restrictions, biggest military budget ever. When the republicans are in charge the democrats do almost everything they can to fight this.

So now we have republicans fighting against forcing people to buy private insurance and democrats saying we have to. What kind of fucked up system is this?

Well that’s the key isn’t it? They want to say they are for the public option so they get the credit, but when it dies they can cash in on all the nice campaign contributions.

Gee, if it’s so great, why does it have to be fixed immediately? Do you actually think the Democrats are going to spend more time on this in the next few years? Your post is crazy.

“Is there not one single member of the Democratic caucus in the Senate that thinks the American people deserved to know if their senators really support the public option or care more about protecting the profits of the private insurance companies?”

What any particular Senator thinks we deserve is irrelevant, because the Senate and the “Democratic” Party as a whole have given us the clearest possible answer: none of them supports the public interest, let alone the so-called public option.

And the public understands the Party’s answer. Just look at how Colorado’s establishmentarian Sen. Bennet faired in the recent caucuses, despite/because of his huge corporate financing and heavy handed backing from the White House and the state and national Parties.

Is there not one single member of the Democratic caucus in the Senate that thinks the American people deserved to know if their senators really support the public option or care more about protecting the profits of the private insurance companies?

That’s an easy one: NO.

Yours is the most patronizing, condescending post I have read in at least a month. Reasonble people consider circumstances and form an opinion. Changing circumstances may change an opinion; disapproval/differing opinions of others should not affect a reasoned opinion.

Don’t forget Bernie Sanders was at the Ritz in Florida with lobbyists. I suppose if you can’t beat them, you may as well join them.

Anyone with half a brain would see that the blue dogs and the repubs are not the problem. The democrats totally have control. They have the power. This failed health care bill(do you think Jane is lying or did you not read her post about what this bill does?) is stealing from the people and giving to the insurance industry. and we just get to die and that is not repubs that is democrats and I am sick and tired of the democrats blaming the republicans when they can not hide behind them anymore, unless you let them. .

you are so right. The democrats are so dangerous because people trust them. We are living in upside down times.

If the supporters of the public option won’t fight for it now in a reconciliation bill, when it has the best chance of passing with a simple majority vote, why should we ever trust their promise of getting to it “later?”

Well, we have also learned that they’re only in favor of something truly progressive, when it has absolutely no chance of passing. Once it’s viable, it’s poison!

The message I keep hearing from the universe is “Emigrate, emigrate! Now, before it’s too late!”

I only wish I knew how I could. I dread the idea of impending senior citizenship in this country, with a corporatist government, and an utter failure of a health care system.

Now that was a masterpiece of concern-trolling.

Jon:

What we have in the public policy disaster referred to as “health care reform” is the final needed proof that a) no figure in either or both of the parties represents the interest of the general public good – they’re all politicians, bought out, coerced, partisan, and self-serving – and that b) the hope for any form of progressive reform whatsoever being enacted by the Democratic Party is completely dead.

The only good things that will come from the passage of this monstrosity, are:

1) A huge degree of anger at and alienation from the political ruling class amongst the broad public,

2) Hopefully, a historic electoral disaster for the Democrats later this year,

3) Hopefully, a permanent and widening, uncrossable chasm between the liberal activist “left” grassroots and the Democratic Party.

Your commentary was fairly smarmy, condescending, and vacuous.

Your priority appears to the saving the Democratic Party by the passage of some legislation, any legislation.

People at THIS web site, HERE, generally prioritized *health care reform* not *partisan gains*.

My suspicion is that all of a sudden it is the House that doesn’t have the votes for a public option; not surprising given the departures of House members. Pelosi is rumored to have said that one will not be included in the reconciliation package. Sanders doing this is a signal not to expect the Senate to gum up the works by opening the House bill for amendments.

One key signal will be whether an authorization for using reconciliation for healthcare is included in the budget authorization that Congress must turn to when the push for the healthcare bill has concluded. That reconciliation provision can be exercised either before or after the 2010 elections and up to April 2011 or so.

Those tents and sleeping bags are going to come in real handy.

All my kids know that if we get a corporatist government and no healthcare and Social Security disappears that they need to have a spare bedroom for Gramps and Grams.

What, the end of the grand American Republic? It’s been coming, or here, since well, forever.

Hell, our founders were merchants and property owners . . . and at least SOME of them fought and died, I think.

Hmmmm, rusty on my history, any Pups know if any of the signatories to the Declaration, and the Constitution, actually FOUGHT in battle against the Brits? Or, like now, were they a privileged class . . . .

Thanks Jon Walker for another update with info and insight you can’t get anywhere else, apparently even in the so called progressive blogosphere . . .

I’m somewhat USED to the chicanery of the MSM and politics and elected offals who spin, but I gotta admit the total collapse of main blogs who CALLED themselves progressive/liberal has been an unexpected body blow.

Thank you Mz. Hamsher and FDL in toto for your stand for truth . . . it’s becoming a sole source for it.

i’d love to move to a country with real heal care like canada, france, etc., but it’s probably a big hassle and america’s tendrils are spread around the world anyway, so even if the healthcare is better, when the next stupid bubble bursts in a few years (because we still won’t have good economic reform/policing) the rest of the world shares the crash too

loyalty to part above all else–yea, thats working great–someone with a brain

Democrats are going to get rolled in November.

1. There will be no discernable health care benefits by November.

2. States are already preparing lawsuits to counter the mandated purchase of Unusable Garbage Health Insurance (like the “Health Insurance” Walmart “provides”).

3. The teevee talking heads (all owned by Republicans like Murdoch and Redstone) will turn a complete 180 and begin bashing the “program” the day after it passes.

4. Republican congresscrooks will take full advantage of the above scenario. The soundbites practically write themselves.

I wish that the Dems had not corrupted so many people who had the potential to be very good progressive leaders. I guess we just start over….looking for those few honest people.

I hope this post focuses on third party candidates for the future, especially, in my view, presidential candidates for 2012.

your right– well put, iam waitimg for the respmse

Just remember, you too can influence the vote of _________ if you just reach into your hearts and donate ________amount of cash now!

It’s everywhere in the blogosphere today. Un-believe-able. We are your paid representatives, and if you want us to do the job you elected us to do, you have to donate cash for my vote. Even as little as $5 will help congressman _________ sleep better at night.

I guess if you feel you have to ASK, then you’ll likely never really listen or believe the evidence that’s been available for a year or so now regarding who’s for the masses and who’s for the corporate oligarchy.

So why should any of us answer you? You are obviously sophisticated to KNOW what’s going on, you are just critical of the prog perspective . . . . which means, you likely are NOT all that concerned with the needs or the will of the masses (see polls in favor of PO).

The talking points are stale, tell Rahm to send you new ones.

They’re boring, too, as is the mechanism by which they are usually delivered . . . way too easily identified anymore.

For a reasonable price, let Rahm know I can do better for his needs, I need a job.

And goddamn hoss, if that’s what happens, am I gonna swallow some bitter pills and smile . . ;-)

The Democrats deserve to have the nihilistic horde of barbarians referred to as “Republicans” *destroy* them in the elections. The Republicans are an utterly unredeemable faction of lunatics, cracker cranks, Machiavellian plutocrats, religious demagogues, etc., but the Democrats deserve to lose to such a faction.

Even Move-On is gasping as if they need every cent to push this bill over the finish line. I answered the e-mail from the White House with one word – Phooey!

Can you put his picture with this post, the one where he’s got that big “I’m a Real Lefty, for REAL!” grin on his face? I think it was on the post FDL did about him saying he was ‘going to’ introduce the vote on the PO.

And btw, concern trolls, I’m going to enjoy watching the democratic party burn down in November so spare me your concern.

Why did you waste your time by posting something at that ridiculous web site?

You won’t be proved wrong; however, the fact that so many people are making the effort to bring their disapproval to your attention says something in itself.

Yeh, what it says is that the minions of Rahm And The Corporate Oligarchy are paying people to distort and attack the blogs, and they are also paying the MSM and distorting ALL info to reach the masses.

Until you ACCEPT the facts and the reality, and stop spinning ‘if so many disagree’ you’ll not get much cred from me, or likely other progs who are really into the facts and details thanks to Jon, Mz. Hansher, and FDL.

Your ‘heartfelt plea’ for consideration IS one of Rahm’s better and more recent attempts to push talking points, I must admit.

I give you a B+, the others lately are flunking my criteria for originality.

For lack of a word that won’t be moderated, it’s disgusting.

Now that we here in the FDL angry peasant mob, with our pitchforks and torches, have been turned back in the Battle of Health Care “Reform” by the Democratic Royalist Army, we can return later this year in the Great Battle of Burning Ballot Boxes.

Not true. Dubya had both houses from 2000 to 2006. Dubya did the wars, the patriot act, the torture, the extraordinary rendition, Blackwater, Missing billions in Iraq, the gutting of the SEC (derriviatives trading, housing bubble) the tax cuts for the rich, the assault on the environment, the secret energy task force, Enron, etc.

The fact is that the Republicans are some degrees worse than the Democrats.

With Obama Rhama Sunstein, we got fooled. And harry reid and Pelosi were always Judas.

Whether you support the bill or not, this is proof of something:

When Obama wants a bill passed, IT WILL FUCKING PASS.

If only he had done this 9 months ago, when he had more political capital. I remember being accused of wanting to “wave a magic wand.” Its called Leadership and it works

I posted this at Daily Kos

Game Theory

We have been played. This bill will fail for the simple fact that it is not enforceable. I come at this from a different perceptive than you guys. You see I used to be a brainwashed conservative I mean fascist down here in the deep south. Down here you are brought up in the gladitorial camp of fascism bullshit. These fuckers are ruthless. There will be mass civil disobediance to this law and mass cheating on income taxes to manipulate the 2%. For example a teabagger will pay the 2% fine but cheat on his taxes 5% out of spite. Frank Lutz will take care of that subliminaly. And you can still game the system 2% one year healthcare the next. Simple cost benefit analysis, Unless you are willing to hire millions of IRS workers(not very progressive, police state) this is toast. The incoming conservative congress will kneecap the I.R.S. if there is a hint they intend to actively enforce this law(2014 too, by talking points if necessary) and there goes whats left of the general revenue fund and the treasure of progressive reforms SS and eventually Medicare. And to top it off this damn fascist bill will be pinned to progressives forever. Hell they can even accuse progressives of wanting to set up a police state to enforce this mandate for the for profit corporations. This is Glenn Beck’s and his bat shit supporters wetdream. They are always the victim. These guys play for keeps. The rethugs could have killed this bill anytime with this simple assertion that this bill is the largest transfer of wealth to a private monopolized industry in United States history. The rethugs make the DLC look like the biggest neophytes in world history. Do not worry about the health insurance industry the rethugs will make sure they are never threaten again. Tails they win heads they win. Sorry guys you need more gladitorial progressives on your side like me. I do love you guys though. (FDL, I actually have empathy for these guys, they are boys playing in a man’s world)

That’s exactly right; what Obama wants, Obama gets.

That was the point Jane made when she said that Obama’s position is the furthest left possible, otherwise the Veal-Pen-sic-em! game begins.

and you have posted it twice in this thread

as moderator, i will remove the duplicate post

“Its called Leadership and it works”

I would call it douchebaggery myself.

These people are traitors – traitors to truth, traitors to honesty. The first and hardest lesson for progressives to learn was stated by John Jay Chapman 110 years ago: “There are no issues in American politics save the one issue of common honesty.” Easy-to-say and easy-to-dismiss because hard-to-believe, hard-to-remember, hard-to-act-on, not “practical,” not “realistic,” and quite contrary to our issues-oriented bias. Nevertheless true, and not learning it means continued defeat, disillusionment – and betrayal.

*waves at Suz!*

Hi hunny – need me to fire over some chocolate? Scanning the blog, it appears that you and Lurk and RBG had a lot on yer plates today. :)

After witnessing the outright charade in Congress on HCR, and hearing today some of Obama’s speech to a group of apparently naive college students, I’m absolutely convinced America is headed in a very negative and dangerous direction. That’s assuming we’re not already there. It’s utterly impossible to resolve any public issues in good faith when our government is lying and working against the public good.

The Public Option is too popular and valuable electorally to not use. My cynical hope and expectation is that the PO will be re-introduced in the run-up to the midterms.

You know, I think the Anthony Weiner (and I do mean WEINER) diary tells us how to respond to Bernie, and in a way that saves the (ever-faithful, hardworking, brilliant, and generally lovable) FDL moderators some work.

Bernie Sanders, [edited by moderator]!

MODNOTE: this was not edited by the moderator

I’m not making a normative call – I am talking bout effectiveness. Bush got stuff done. The fact that he was trying to accomplish bad things doesn’t change the efficacy of his methods.

This is really just sad.

I think BTD or Glenn said it was ironic that the bloggers were enforcing the DC veal pen when the blogosphere was created to specifically oppose that mentality.

well if that’s true, then he owns everything that has been done since elected, even all the crap that was blamed on Republicans, because hey he’s providing leadership. Working great too.

just to set the record straight, this was not moderated

i presume pretending to be a moderator was an attempt at humor but in reality it created more work for the moderator

How about the powers that be told Sen.Sanders that unless he backs off his offering of the amendment, the funding for community clinics will have to be cut back significantly in order to meet the budgetary requirements of this bill?

What would you do?

All this anger at Kucinich and Sanders is misplaced; it should be focused on the Obama Admin; If Obama wanted a public option in this bill, it would have been there.

I’m not so sure about that even. Obama doesn’t strike me as a leader, more a salesman for a bunch of corporate technocrats. He’s a hiree.

And with “lesser of two evils” voting, things will just continue to get worse as the Democrats continue to triangulate Republicans by supporting their policies.

Hahahaha……after reading the WIENER blog, it’s funny!! Come on, smile, you know it’s funny. I can see you laughing from here!!

no it wasn’t

it created more work by the moderator to clean up the allegation that it was moderated.

” It’s utterly impossible to resolve any public issues in good faith when our government is lying and working against the public good.”

Well said and very true. It’s amazing to me that this is our situation, but I’m glad I know it for sure now as opposed to still believing them.

“Or, like now, were they a privileged class . . . .”

This is even worse than the Dennis the Menace flip-flop. Is there not one honorable man in the land?

Rightttt. Just like NAFTA was fixed and the Donut hole. Americans are willfully ignorant and naive all at the same time.

People venting their frustrations on a blog, is far better than taking planes and smashing them into IRS buildings, or buying guns and going on shooting sprees. I realize it makes alot of work, but isn’t it better? Does nobody monitor any content, except readers responses? I mean, after the anger on here the last few days, what exactly did anyone expect would happen with that post? A lovefest? Not trying to be snarky, but, perhaps there should be a delay in posts even in the Seminal until someone decides if it will create a WW3 explosion?

…I gotta admit the total collapse of main blogs who CALLED themselves progressive/liberal has been an unexpected body blow.

Thank you Mz. Hamsher and FDL in toto for your stand for truth . . . it’s becoming a sole source for it.

Ain’t it the truth.

and get more cries of censorship and name calling and hatred and vitriol?

no thank you — i’ve got more than enough of that already

Definite eye opener, topped off with supposed elected progressives stabbing in back, then asking for donations. Holy cow for chutzpah.

Not from me you won’t Suzanne. You do a great job, and so do the mods. But like I said, everybody should have known what that post of Wiener’s would cause.

WTF???

Bernie Sanders is not a stupid guy, and I don’t doubt his dedication to the cause. But what does he think it accomplishes to let the Democratic leadership off the hook at this point. How is that going to help anything. The more they sweat, the more concessions they make, to whoever is making them sweat.

Progressives have to stop being empathetic people pleasers. Everyone is playing big-stakes poker here. Trying to make the President feel better is the action of a loser.

You know this is really getting funny. It’s like being at a funeral where the attendees praise the departed even as they are sticking pins in the corpse to make sure the guy is really dead. After some wonderful tributes delivered by people obviously drunk that no one believes and everyone contradicts in hushed whispers, the pallbearers pick up the casket, but trip and drop it going down the stairs. Finally, the casket makes it to the hearse, but someone has left it in neutral and whole shebang rolls downhill and into the bay. Your initial reaction is to be horrified but, as it goes on, it becomes a macabre send up of everything that is supposed to be dignified and serious. That is what this healthcare debate has become for me. So what if Sanders is trying to outwhore Kucinich on this. Who hasn’t acted the whore on this? And who seriously can compete with Obama and Rahm on this anyway?

This is an incredibly disappointing moment. Is there not one single member of the Democratic caucus in the Senate that thinks the American people deserved to know if their senators really support the public option or care more about protecting the profits of the private insurance companies?

Theoretically, there are at least 39 senators: the ones who signed the Bennet Letter.

As I recall, Senator Gillibrand was an eager co-signer of the Bennet Letter.

How about it, Senator Gillibrand? Were you just eager to score points while doing nothing, or will you stand up for the American people who have a right to see on the record which senators really represent them and which are fighting instead to protect the profits of the medical industrial complex?

Within the next several weeks I’m hoping to form a business that will provide information and assist to those wishing to emmigrate. The handwriting is on the wall. There are far better places to live in the world than this cesspool. It’s not going to get any better but only worse.

Does anybody find it a little strange that we end up getting the worst bills, the most viloations of our rights and civil liberties when we have a democratic congress?

GREAT Question!!!

It took me a while, and more than a couple of Pups (including a front pager or two like Jon, David or Jim White) to get me to my end point of analysis.

What the corporate oligarchy wants, wanted, and is getting full force, could NOT be gotten by the NeoCons and Pubs, too overt.

The final daggers into the Republic, Declaration and Constitution had to come from the Dem’s.

And what better Dem to use as the shill than the first ever elected black man as president? As was said by someone, likely approached and groomed since about ’06 for the task.

So, the corporate oligarchy planned, and executed and nailed their plan.

A Black, Prez., Dem, delivering the destruction of the Republic, the Declaration and the Constitution all the while positioned, marketed and presented as a liberal voice for change and hope to counter the horrors of the GOP and BushCo.

We got pawned, start to finish.

Now we progs need to gather up, and move forward.

Along this whole process, the amount of insight and information gleaned and garnered about the sick and twisted system, the depth of the OWNERSHIP the corporate oligarchy has on our electoral process and elected officials, that information alone is more than I’m sure the oligarchy ever wanted revealed.

And now, they will work hard to shut down our communications abilities, our ability to organize and dissent online, and more.

But we are better prepared and more ready to deal with it than ever before, and frankly, the depth of the failure of the corporate oligarchy is just one viral explosion away from going galt among even the most marginalized and dumbed down citizens, as the Teabaggers have proven. Sure they were herded and organized by the corps, but even the roots of the teabaggers and Xtian’s are feeling the corporate sellout as they lose houses, jobs and more in this class war.

*G*

Is there not one single member of the Democratic caucus in the Senate that thinks the American people deserved to know if their senators really support the public option or care more about protecting the profits of the private insurance companies?

Or are just under enormous pressure from their colleagues.

Europe and Asia did far better in weathering the crash precipitated by the U.S.. Don’t think they are not preparing for the next U.S. bubble to burst, the commercial real estate market.

*G*

Your handle is new to me, so I’ll say howdy and welcome even if you’ve been around these waters.

But I like your comments so far!!

A lot!!!

*G*

Thank you Suzanne, I’ll try not to be such a ****.

I about busted out bawling like a baby.

*G*

I don’t disagree with Jon on the issues. I don’t get why he posted his opinion is all. I think it makes him look bad.

What I said was a direct criticism, nothing roundabout or hidden. I think I know better than he does, in this case, the plus and minus of publishing an opinion.

Your judgment that I’m being ‘condescending’ and ‘patronizing’ implies that I’m being dismissive of Jon in some way, and I’m not. I habitually read his posts, as I said.

That seems to be name-calling. What’s your specific criticism of what I said?

Democrats are going to get rolled in November.

That’s a good meme to USE now, for pressure to change the dems.

But I don’t think it’s conclusive yet, . . . . I may switch to Indie, but I don’t want to lose Dem primary voter access, so I’m still undecided what to do.

And politically, I just CAN’T stay home, and I can’t vote for Pubs . . . and I don’t want to hand any seats national, state, or even local to a Pub because I went Indie . . .

I’m looking for that little wedge spot where I can punish dem’s, hold off Pub’s, and work for progs.

I may be looking up till election day . . *G*

But I’ll be damned if I’ll cave now and hand the meme to the Pubs the Dems are gonna get slaughterd.

Like hell I will.

nevermind..

Just add Bernie Sanders to the list of submission/cowardice right under Kucinich.

***gentle reminder***

disagree with the message but do not attack or insult the messenger

btw.. jane has a new post up

You’re offering an opinion devoid of facts, just three pejorative adjectives. Support them with a rational argument.

I think the acronym you’re suggesting is WAF. We Are F______d.

I disagree with your specifics, but not your hypothesis. The odds are too long for the oligarchs, it’s not cost effective.

The reality is that big money waits patiently for a moment when one is desperate, and then makes the deal they want and you have to take. This is how venture capitalists work. It’s also how Buffett (among other investors) makes a lot of money. He patiently observes and waits for your call. Yes, you call him. When you have to sell, he’s ready to buy…at his price.

Excellent idea. I’m ready this place is getting old fast.

There’s a LOT to be said for that comment, that was incredibly astute and empathetic.

*bows*

I fully agree with you, not just for this post but for what’s transpired in the past week or so.

Primary Obama, ’12, is a must.

Bush/Cheney were “ends justify the means” guys. Terrible ends, terrible means.

I’d like to believe we can accomplish Single Payer without terrible means. Due to terrible means we can’t even get Public Option.

The rules of American politics should be obvious from Rove: The money people set a goal, get their financial backing, find an emotional hook for the unwashed masses, disseminate the emotional message with your own paid media, ignore/belittle/demonize the opposition, accuse the opposition of planning to do the unethical behaviors you’ve been doing, don’t worry about the means.

Same thing happened with NAFTA. It was doubtful that George H.W. Bush – who negotiated the deal – could have got it ratified by Congress because of Democratic opposition. However, young charismatic President Bill Clinton comes in, promises everyone magic labor and environmental side agreement pixie dust (which turned out to be worthless), and it gets passed.

It’s so much like NAFTA, Rahm is bragging about it.

White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has been telling Democrats a win on the health issue will reverse the slide in public opinion, just as passage of another controversial proposal, the North American Free Trade Agreement, lifted President Bill Clinton in the polls.

NAFTA was ratified by a Democratic Congress (with Republican help) in 1993. It led to the disastrous 1994 midterms and the Gingrich Revolution. And Rahm wants a repeat! And his boss might want a repeat, too.

(this reply to ceasley7 #44 I think it was)

I enjoyed that read.

WRT the political football that moves the masses, you nailed it to a T.

The ONLY thing you omit, is separating progs/libs/socialists/commies/DFH’s from the political machinery.

My new found friend in the foxhole, us prog we the peoples are every bit as batshit crazy and ready to defeat the corporate oligarchy machine as much as the Xtian, Southern, Bat Shit Crazed we the people are.

The politicians don’t mean much anymore, they are no all on the same self declared side, and the masses are just now figuring it out, something us progs knew and feared long ago.

If you’ll pass the moonshine, I’ll pass over some EXCELLENT CA wine and cuisine, and maybe we can pick a few when our bellies are full and our throats ain’t so parched . . *G*

Well there you go, The Corporate State wins another round.

The GOP pivot on this “health care” abomination is going to be swift and devastating and on every channel of cable and broadcast media 24/7.

Whoops, my bad, I didn’t notice that Suz . . . but I kinda liked some of the points . . ;-)

Too early for a glass of Reisling and some smoked salmon, capers, lemon zest, pesto, whole wheat stone ground crackers?

*pushesplatetoher*

It was pretty kewl till I went out noon, did I miss something worthy of engaging?
I feel snarky . . ;-)

SHHHHHHH!!!! (fingers to lips) I’m huntin twollwlllssssssss!!!!

On this we agree. Continued 10% unemployment means retail stagnation, which get propagated to commercial retail and office space.

lets let the moderators take care of any trolls

They don’t make Socialists the way they use to; fuck me gently with a chainsaw.

I believe it’s obvious that what I told Jon was that his post criticizing Sanders (and the language he used in the post) was impractical in a political sense. I think it’s important for progressive bloggers to be respected in the ‘political world’, not dismissed. This post isn’t helping him.

I admit I’m annoyed at the frequency of commenters here and elsewhere throwing around the insult ‘concern troll’. It’s an insult that disparages the motives of people you don’t know. You don’t know them, so you don’t know their motives. Even if you did, the insult is an example of the argumentum ad hominem, a common logical fallacy. It doesn’t belong in a rational discussion.

Your theory seems to be that I’m a paid supporter of Rahm Emanuel.

You can find my opinion of Rahm here: downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/search?q=rahm-x

And if Sanders and Kuch were jacked up like that and failed to announce it then that’s shit too, hoss.

Know what I mean?!?!?!??!?

They weren’t jacked up with that shit, they were told their careers were over.

And MAYBE, a realization they shouldn’t be flying in small planes with or without their family.

“TAKE OFF YOUR SUNGLASSES UMP, YER MISSING A GOOD GAME!!!!”

*G*

*scuffstoeindirt*

Ahhhh shoot . . . they don’t let us have no fun no mo . . . ;-)

A lil subtle snark, maybe, Kelly like? *blink*

More salmon, Suz? Refresh that glass while I’m up? Chonklit?

lol

I hears ya . . .

Phooey is good, too!!! *G*

Is it too early to mookie smooch you in a Pup Manner and shove a glass of Chateau St. Michell Reisling down yer gullet?

And one for Belch, of course . . . the Reisling . . . hell, I guess mookie smooch one, mookie smooch all, too, too.

lol

methinks we all forget the real power of lbj. his mastery of the congress relied upon blackmail. and it was edgar who delivered the goods to him in that era.

since then, the eavesdropping of the members of the congress has been institutionalized, legalized even. echelon and its successor programs have allowed the executive branch to data mine the “affairs”, romantic and financial, of anyone that it cares to target.

oddly, the congress has countenanced what i consider to be illicit scrutiny under the threat of being soft on terrorism.

and now, i think that the congressional submission to nsa wiretapping, has resulted in their subservience to the defacto emperor. he has the results of those nsa taps. and this allows him to put the genitals of every congressman within the confines of the vise.

i assert that there are virtually no congresspersons with no litigable skeletons. or no embarrassing skeletons.

and there is always this consideration…wayne madsen[you may not like him]asserts that barry soetero has long been an intelligence agency asset. and the way his regime is unfolding, i find it difficult to argue with wayne.

if wayne is accurate, this would make barry the last in the line of intell agency assets. and the intell agencies never work for the serfs[aka the citizenry].

censor that you moderators!

Reisling and PNorthWest Smoked Salmon tonite, want some? *G*

We also made some cream cheese and pesto schmear for the whole wheat stone ground crackers . .

I remember in the 90′s, seeing either signs or T-shirts that read: “Don’t vote, it just encourages them.”

It would be nice if turn-out under 50% meant nobody won and a new batch of candidates had to run. And everybody got free beer. So in order to win, the candidates would have to be better than beer.

Exactly, greedy Bernie had his palms greased big time in Florida recently. Then he comes back and pretends he’s gonna fight, fight, fight for the little people, gathering even more cash from the gullible hopefuls, only to smack them down again.

They’re all following Obama like lemmings over a cliff. All the money in the world is not gonna get really pissed off people to vote for them.

At least when Republicans have the majority, the Democrats feel forced into playing the opposition. The corporate damage of the country is far less than the egregious destruction and raping of the middle class that Democrats have excelled at when they’re in power.

willing to whine for wine ;).

On this whole “concern troll” thing:

I’ve been mostly a lurker, for years really, because my first attempts at being “relevant” enough to “comment,” really only manifested when I thought I could say something “constructive” – what I thought of as mild game-changers, if you will.

The bottom line is that I had to learn that this sort of approach is seen as patronizing and condescending (the “vacuous” part is a bit vicious, I admit.)

I have the impulse to “correct” people all the time, but you know what? It doesn’t work in the household, or at work, or on the bus. No surprise that it doesn’t work on blogs either, brother. Ya gotta get into peoples’ moccasins first. Empathy.

Was that Maude? Great movie script hoss if it’s not already been a few!!!

Reisling and smoked salmon?

I’m feelin VERY Pup Friendly tonite, I got enuff for all.

*G*

Expound, please?

Obama’s a con man and an opportunist. He’ll do whatever is necessary to accumulate power for himself and keep himself in the company of other powerful people.

If they truly fear for their lives, it’s time to retire.

Selling out their alleged principles to save themselves screams out for term limits. Congress will never do it themselves, so it’s up to the people to fire Obama and every one of these 535 asswipes. One term from here on in and give em the boot.

There’s not a shred of honor or integrity in any of them. None. It’s all about then. They all sold out to save their asses knowing full well that their lies and now their actions will destroy the well being and financial lives of even more Americans.

Or you can keep the blinders on.

Hmmm . . . I don’t see your disagreement as one of specifics.

I offered up a general big view using a lens of analysis of politico/social to do so.

Your lens is one of a micro/macro economics, for the most part.

The specifics differ only thru the date you sift and what you choose to call that data.

Loved your reply/comment, thanks . . . and I concur with you about the econ view, all the way.

Hope you’ll stick around and offer more, your handle is also new to me here . . .

I’m seeing a lot of new handles, many of them friendly!!!

*G*

I haven’t visited any so-called progressive blogs for months and don’t expect to ever again. I used to read dozens every day. Right now I only visit here, Corrente, and the Confluence. That’s it. Occasionally Taylor Marsh. For some reason, most of the clear-thinking people online these days seem to be women.

There’s a lot of talk about how this bill is “historic.” Well, my very apolitical wife just learned about the mandate provision, and she hit the ceiling. The lady is from Iowa, you understand, a usually very forgiving soul. When you lose her, it’s historic, all right. Multiply this instance by tens of millions, and you get a pretty grim picture for the next few years.

The language used and emotions expressed in this post and in the comments are understandable. I cried tears of joy when Obama was elected, and now I don’t believe a single word he says. I assure you that I’m as left-wing as they come, so this is a precipitous drop. A sea change, if you will. Are my wife and I psychotic nut cases? No. :-) Five college degrees between us, in fact, and I’ve voted Democratic for 44 years.

This is MAJOR.

The Democrats have sold out everything and everyone for promises of campaign donations from insurers and Big Pharma. There isn’t any more organizing, petitioning, or getting out the vote to be done. It’s all over. What I can’t believe is that the party strategists don’t see what they’ve done. I say this calmly and clearly. It’s O.V.E.R. I’m not afraid of Republicans or teabaggers, so that bogeyman won’t work, either.

*I* have more integrity than any Democratic Senator. My freaking CAT has more integrity than any Democratic senator. This new awareness isn’t going to go away or be forgotten, not even if Palin’s on the ballot. Just wait and see. :-)

There’s tons of resources on the Internet to give you tips depending on the country. Some areas are easier than others. The US is actually considered more difficult by many to move to than other developed countries, well, legally.

Sanders wouldn’t know a Socialist if one smacked him on the ass. He needs to find a place on Team Obama and quit pretending to stand for anything but his next lobbyist paycheck. At least Kucinich was taking one for the team, in his crazed dreams. Sanders just proved, if the Florida Ritz Carlton episode hadn’t already done so, that the corruption of DC controlled by Team Obama is too much for him to withstand.

The tube of boobs phrase for the whole DC crown is probably “pimps and hos”.

Your desire to want to be ‘respected’ in the political world is the stuff of wanna be veal penners.

My criticism of you and your messaging stands.

Nice, though. You invoked blowback . . . I didn’t, loved the use of ‘concrern trolls’ that I didn’t actually use though, that was special.

Putting words in MY mouth, to defend your position.

I can’t respect that in a solid political discussion, alas . . . *snicker*

Interesting and I love the cloak and dagger stuff . .

But who’s Barry, Wayne and Edgar? (oh, Barry as in Barack? that’s codespeak for racism, hoss, bad choice if it’s the Barry Our Pres)

A full plate and glass to you to, Pupper . . . *G*

Later, my 7 day soaked New York Strip Loin comes off the two day slow smoked apple wood bbq for slicing.

*G*

All I can say is they likely fear for their lives, and their riches.

So they are bought and owned, from campaign to retirement to lobbyist.

Sad, we are now finding out our worst fears in the 60′s are still true, ain’t it.

Thanks for your reply and thoughts.

So said every Republican each time Bush passed a bill that hurt their constituents. If we reduce the harm done to others along with associated lies and false ethics as a part of games played and the teams that won or lost then there is no difference between being a R and a D. If votes for representation and ethics have no meaning then the net effect is that representative government is sham.

Sir, your words leave a mark.

*bowing*

I share those feelings. Unfortunately, I don’t think any other country with decent healthcare that’s relatively easy to move to would be immune to much larger changes I see coming down the pike for everyone. This entire HCR debate is something of a sideshow, for all the lives it touches.

The next financial crisis will blow the walls out. Obama and the Wall Street boyz have seen to that. I think the only thing to do is to arrange our lives so that we have friends and neighbors to turn to when things get dark. (I’m 64, BTW.) No, I’m not a survivalist, and I think they’re crazy. But we’re living at a moment of immense significance. The collapse of institutions we used to trust and depend on–the Democrats, for example–offers great opportunity for change. Obama actually IS what we needed, if you look at it that way.

Countries with good healthcare now will probably slash their own safety nets when the deal goes down. I’d aim for somewhere like Vermont, New Mexico, Iowa, or the Pacific Northwest, where there are communities and people who participate in regional health initiatives, local food production and distribution, and where the population density isn’t so high…

I agree with all the sentiments about sellout Sanders.

One request, though:

As a single guy who eats many more microwave dinners than he’d like, can you all stop talking about delicious food, you know, salmon and the like? Pretty please?

This is why I question the motives of many of these Democratic Party-supporting blogs. They play a similar game as Obama, or even Kucinich. They talk tough for the people, even against status quo Democrats, but when it comes close to voting, their critiques begin to fade and even flip to support (with hesitations). It’s even more important to watch this on sites where user blogs are a major part of the site, such as Dkos. It’s easily possible some, if not many there are working on behalf of either the party or the industries that are to be affected by the legislation being created.

In other words, it makes absolutely no sense for a supposed activist site to make excuses for its readers to support the compromised bill. It is our role to remain activists and demand what we truly want, not to pretend we are senators or to act as PR agents to help them stay popular. Well, again, I have no faith in election style “democracy”. There’s nothing democratic about choosing your king or queen every 4 years based on their party and misleading marketing campaigns.

One request, though:

As a single guy who eats many more microwave dinners than he’d like, can you all stop talking about delicious food, you know, salmon and the like? Pretty please?

Well, I haven’t been one of the perps, but that just cracked me up. Peace, BigJess!

The collapse of institutions we used to trust and depend on–the Democrats, for example–offers great opportunity for change. Obama actually IS what we needed, if you look at it that way.

In a sort of English schoolboy refrain of, “Please sir may I have another?” type opportunity.

You’re right, the unfixed and unrepentant financial mess, which extends to the entire world wide club of bankers and their political stooges will almost certainly lead to a blowup like nothing before. The financial institutions during the thirties were constrained in comparison to the rampant, unregulated transfers that nearly no country has seen fit to reign in.

We live in interesting times.

And now, they will work hard to shut down our communications abilities, our ability to organize and dissent online, and more.

Back in 2005, Telus, a large ISP in Canada, blocked customers from accessing the Telecommunications Workers’ Union of Canada’s website after locking out the union. Such blatant censorship caused a backlash, but it’s also easy for an ISP to make accessing certain websites unbearable slow, which effectively discourages people from visiting them.

Google backs net neutrality because letting telecoms “shape traffic” allows them to reward companies that pay them off and punish companies that don’t. And Google doesn’t want to have to start paying off all the telecoms. Obama wants to be able to line his campaign coffers with money from both Silicon Valley and from the telecoms (see the FISA vote). So for now he talks a good game, but there’s little concrete action

Aaaargh! i can’t stand it. Your address, please?

Evening comrades. Et tu, Senator Sanders? I sound like a broken record, but we need to harness the 8-10% of leftists in this hellhole of a country. The Dems must lose and lose regularly until they look like Kucinich did after Rombot and Obummer got through with him.

To the barricades!

Ha ha ha Haaa!!! that is EXACTLY what it resembles. Funny!

Give it up. Obama does not want a Public Option, so it ain’t happening.
He and Rahm are strongarming every one of those power mad, money grubbing, vote sellers who dare push the PO anymore. Obama NEVER wanted it. It was DOA at the White House. That was the deal he made with his corporate cronies. Notice how he keeps his word to them. To us, he’s a pathological liar. Thirty seconds of him today and I had to shut it off. Such a bold faced liar.

Cool. I am heading to the Phillippines in November to scout the situation out in that part of the world. Advantages: cheap, generally speak English, fairly modern, great scuba diving, some surfing and proximity to some cool places like Thailand, Bali, Cambodia. New Zealand. I have a friend there who loves it w/ some caveats.

If you are serious about setting this up (something I have considered as well) and would like some up to date info from the field, please contact me.

Wow, how disappointing:

Tarrant gave me a call Friday to spin the tale of how he and wife, along with Richard Corley and his wife, had been patrons at the $1000-a-night Ritz and that he was in the business of checking out the next morning when he recognized what he jokingly called “a ghost from my past.”

Yep. It was Bernie alright. Turns out Sanders had spent the night at the very same Ritz with his wife, Jane. Tarrant tapped the Vermont junior senator on the shoulder and asked him the obvious “What are YOU doing here?” Bernie mumbled something about attending a Democratic Party function of some sort…

Turns out, according to Sanders’ press spokeswoman, that Bernie was in Naples along with a half-dozen other Senators as the guests of Senator Chuck Shumer and the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee.

Wave a nice trip in front of him, and maybe some fund-raising dollars, and he can think of all sorts of reasons to support the bill.

No taxation without representation…all else is tyranny.

Why are our good legislators like Kucinich(sp) and Sanders caving?

I agree with you Jon. It is disappointing when the good guys fold ‘em.It is time for a third party and a revolution at the same time. We are not represented in Washington.

Agree 100%. But umm . . . what are Xtians? Christians?

That would be justice.

They can’t claim they’re the party for the poor and the middle class, the party for peace, or the environment, privacy or civil rights, pro labor, or even a women’s right to choose anymore.
So fuck ‘em.

Also, Ralph Nader’s question still hangs in the air: what will it take to get Americans angry?

The Dem Party is a party of rigid corporatism and amoral money grubbing. Obummer is the titular head of this rather noxious virus. It is time to break away! Be free! Y’all know it your heart. There is no other way. If they knee capped Dennis K, imagine how they feel about us, the urine soaked peasants, the wage slaves who make this country run.

There are so many “plants” on blogs now, it’s rampant.
I’m down to about three sites that I frequent still haven’t been corrupted, yet.

Upper state Maine is nice for community too.

Pay the bills off. Grow a garden. We are doing these things in my community. There are people who have great skills I don’t have. One wonderful mechanic worked hours on my Honda and got it running for free.I have never personally met him either.

Maine has great health care and dental for those who make less than 18,000. Kinda’ unusual. But you can’t just move here and expect to have a safety net. I am retired.Was able to sell my farm outside Ashville in NC when real estate was good to make the move. Am very thankful..don’t know how I would make it in NC now. It was hairy when I left.

Don’t be fooled by Bernie. Bernie cares about Bernie.
He’s a career politician who needs to be fired. What else you wanna know?

The elites co-opt everything. Agent provocateurs everywhere. In vegan pot lucks. In Quaker peace groups. Marcus Kos is prolly a CIA plant. Anything is possible. Even Digby has bowed to the corporate edifice.

Didn’t Kucinich have the LOOK of a man who had just been made an offer he couldn’t refuse, Godfather style. I mean he was almost white with shock.

Hells yeah! Dennis K was knee capped, man. Chicago style! Well, Rombot is a gangster. And Obummer, well…nuff said.

Yes. After what has transpired this last year I look at Obama’s history pre-election with much different eyes. The whole Rezko thing. The way he turned on his benefactor for political gain. The “present” votes so as not to leave a political trail behind. The sheer speed of his rise through the ranks.

In his autobiography he writes about when he 1st understood that that he had the voice and delivery that enticed people to listen to him.

Yes. An actor and a con man. Exactly like his hero, Reagan.

A good politician anticipates. What I don’t understand in the case of Kucinich and Sanders is how they didn’t anticipate the likelihood of pressure being applied to them down the road for votes/help and say to the WH/leadership: LOOK, you FREEZE us out and make backroom deals; do not think that you can come to us in the 11th hour for help cause our answer will be no. They could have said this to Obama and Pelosi months ago and repeated it weekly publicly and privately: If you freeze us out, calculate that you won’t get our votes/help PERIOD. Then the corporatistpartymediascum wouldn’t be able to push this bullshit that Obama’s presidency depends on Kucinich etc. No, rather, it would depend on Obama. What am I missing? Did DK not anticipate this and crumble or did he anticipate it and crumble? And the flipside: did the WH know he would crumble?

A Truth Commission would do it I’m pretty sure.

Well, my very apolitical wife just learned about the mandate provision, and she hit the ceiling. The lady is from Iowa, you understand, a usually very forgiving soul. When you lose her, it’s historic, all right.

Funny!

I hope you are right about it being OVER! But people are SO easily distracted and misled. I’m not confident of much repercussion coming from the sheeple.

if none of them will propose the amendment, then none of them are for it. they are all responsible, they will all vote no.

“Pimps and Hos”.

Oh God, that would be a great regular Jon Stewart segment covering Washington politics.

Aye, but ’tis colder than a polar bear’s arse up there. Sorry. Us wimpy Californians would never make it.

Machiavelli has been so unfairly maligned. He was one of the greatest republican thinkers and arguably the greatest. If Obama had read the Discourses, he would know how to look forward, and if he had read the Prince, he would know how to deal with the past. There is nothing remotely Machiavellian about either of our political parties. He would never use mercenaries. Even if we stick to the caricature of the ends justifying the means, M would hardly approve of any of the ends that the corporatist scum have chosen.

Yeah. Being avuncular and saying the right things doesn’t give him a pass in my book. Not in these times.

See response #’s 149 and 150. Dennis is no angel and I really feel they got something dirty or embarrassing on him. The whole “saving the Obama Presidency” was a cover ploy to try and make this look noble. I mean doesn’t it just SOUND cheap and flimsy?

Oh dont sound so surprised that Bernie flipped.

If that is so, then this is no longer the home of the brave-at least as far as our leaders are concerned. Our kids are getting their nuts blown off in Iraq and Afghanastan but no politician is willing to call a press conference and say that he is being blackmailed?? Durbin and Whitehouse talked about how their familes and staffs were threatened in that subcommittee meeting when they had Soufan and Zelikow in. Durbin said that many times he wanted to call a press conference (“If the American people only knew…”) but he didn’t because there are limits when someone might get hurt. Neither the mainstream media nor the blogs did any real covering of those rather OUTRAGEOUS revelations. But that was then. This is now. One can only wonder what kind of blackmail is going on. It seems clear though that the people who make the campaign contributions cultivate cowards for higher office.

Yeah, I’ve gotten probably 5 e-mails from various Congress critters [I spread around my meager dough in 2008 via Act Blue] today asking for $$$ and touting their “support of this historic legislation.”

I unsubscribed to every damn one of them, including my “reason.”

I also heard from MoveOn, whom i blasted with an unsubscribe reason. Their auto system actually begged me not to leave.

Fuckers.

In response to Twain @ 36:

Even Move-On is gasping as if they need every cent to push this bill over the finish line. I answered the e-mail from the White House with one word – Phooey!

“Fuckers” works for that too.

Just remembered the motto on the top band of a note pad I got as a token for donating to a veteran’s group a few years ago:

“America will remain the land of the free only as long as it remains the home of the brave.”

The reference was to bravery in battle, but it could just as easily apply to bravery among our elected officials. (Ain’t none of that happenin’, that’s for sure!)

You sir are a lemming. As others have noted, look at NAFTA, look at the Patriot Act, look at the donut hole, Congress always plays kick the can to avoid hard decisions. This bill is no different and as such will not be fixed. You’re a fool if you believe them. You don’t think the ever present “THEM” or “THEY” will not allow the fixes to happen? Give me a break, God forbid Congress has to make the call.

Kucinich perfect example. Sell out.

Hope Kucinich loses this year. Corporatist trash. Even listening to him now rant and rail about how horrid the bill is, but we need to do it.. How convoluted. Sure Dennis, they’ll get right to fixing the HCR law after they charge Bush and Cheney with war crimes. Both are about as likely.

All this anger at Kucinich and Sanders is misplaced; it should be focused on the Obama Admin; If Obama wanted a public option in this bill, it would have been there.

Well, I disagree in in that both Kucinich and Sanders underestimated their own power. The whip counts for both the reconciliation bill and the Senate bill last December were so tight (and in Sanders’s case he was the 60th of the required 60 votes). Situation like that is when a legislator has the most leverage he will ever have. If you flinch, don’t be surprised when no one takes you seriously the next time they need your vote.

The Sanders betrayal along with a looooong line of other betrayals makes me want to vomit, i will find it difficult to look at him the same way again.
I give up.