I’ll be on the new CNN show with Jon King that premieres at noon ET, available for live stream here — jh
The Firedoglake health care team has been covering the debate in congress since it began last year. The health care bill will come up for a vote in the House on Sunday, and as Nancy Pelosi works to wrangle votes, we’ve been running a detailed whip count on where every member of Congress stands, updated throughout the day.
We’ve also taken a detailed look at the bill, and have come up with 18 often stated myths about this health care reform bill.
Real health care reform is the thing we’ve fought for from the start. It is desperately needed. But this bill falls short on many levels, and hurts many people more than it helps.
A middle class family of four making $66,370 will be forced to pay $5,243 per year for insurance. After basic necessities, this leaves them with $8,307 in discretionary income — out of which they would have to cover clothing, credit card and other debt, child care and education costs, in addition to $5,882 in annual out-of-pocket medical expenses for which families will be responsible. Many families who are already struggling to get by would be better off saving the $5,243 in insurance costs and paying their medical expenses directly, rather than being forced to by coverage they can’t afford the co-pays on.
In addition, there is already a booming movement across the country to challenge the mandate. Thirty-three states already have bills moving through their houses, and the Idaho governor was the first to sign it into law yesterday. In Virginia it passed through both a Democratic House and Senate, and the governor will sign it soon. It will be on the ballot in Arizona in 2010, and is headed in that direction for many more. Republican senators like Dick Lugar are already asking their state attorney generals to challenge it. There are two GOP think tanks actively helping states in their efforts, and there is a booming messaging infrastructure that covers it beat-by-beat.
Whether Steny Hoyer believes the legality of the bill will prevail in court or not is moot, it could easily become the “gay marriage” of 2010, with one key difference: there will be no one on the other side passionately opposing it. The GOP is preparing to use it as a massive turn-out vehicle, and it not only threatens representatives in states like Florida, Colorado and Ohio where these challenges will likely be on the ballot — it threatens gubernatorial and down-ticket races as well. Artur Davis, running for governor of Alabama, is already being put on the spot about it.
While details are limited, there is apparently a “Plan B” alternative that the White House was considering, which would evidently expand existing programs — Medicaid and SCHIP. It would cover half the people at a quarter of the price, but it would not force an unbearable financial burden to those who are already struggling to get by. Because it creates no new infrastructure for the purpose of funneling money to private insurance companies, there is no need for Bart Stupak’s or Ben Nelson’s language dealing with abortion — which satisfies the concerns of pro-life members of Congress, as well as women who are looking at the biggest blow to women’s reproductive rights in 35 years with the passage of this bill. Both programs are already covered under existing law, the Hyde amendment.
But perhaps most profoundly, the bill does not mandate that people pay 8% of their annual income to private insurance companies or face a penalty of up to 2% — which the IRS would collect. As Marcy Wheeler noted in an important post entitled “Health Care on the Road to NeoFeudalism,” we stand on the precipice of doing something truly radical in our government, by demanding that Americans pay almost as much money to private insurance companies as they do in federal taxes:
When this passes, it will become clear that Congress is no longer the sovereign of this nation. Rather, the corporations dictating the laws will be.
I understand the temptation to offer 30 million people health care. What I don’t understand is the nonchalance with which we’re about to fundamentally shift the relationships of governance in doing so.
We started down a dangerous road with Wall Street banks in the early 90s, allowing them to flood our political system with money and write our laws so that taxpayers would subsidize their profits, assume their losses and remove themselves from the necessity of competition. By funneling so much money into the companies who created the very problems we are now attempting to address, we further empower them to hijack our legislative process and put more than just our health care system at risk. We risk our entire system of government.
Congress may be too far down the road with this bill to change course and save themselves — and us. But before Democrats cast this vote, which could endanger not only their Congressional majority but their ability to “fix” things later on, they should consider the first rule of patient safety: first, do no harm.
Myth |
Truth |
| 1. This is a universal health care bill.
|
The bill is neither universal health care nor universal health insurance. Per the CBO:
|
| 2. Insurance companies hate this bill
|
This bill is almost identical to the plan written by AHIP, the insurance company trade association, in 2009.
The original Senate Finance Committee bill was authored by a former Wellpoint VP. Since Congress released the first of its health care bills on October 30, 2009, health care stocks have risen 28.35%. |
| 3. The bill will significantly bring down insurance premiums for most Americans.
|
The bill will not bring down premiums significantly, and certainly not the $2,500/year that the President promised. Annual premiums in 2016, status quo / with bill: Small group market, single: $7,800 / $7,800 Small group market, family: $19,300 / $19,200 Large Group market, single: $7,400 / $7,300 Large group market, family: $21,100 / $21,300 Individual market, single: $5,500 / $5,800* Individual market, family: $13,100 / $15,200* |
| 4. The bill will make health care affordable for middle class Americans. |
The bill will impose a financial hardship on middle class Americans who will be forced to buy a product that they can’t afford to use.
A family of four making $66,370 will be forced to pay $5,243 per year for insurance. After basic necessities, this leaves them with $8,307 in discretionary income — out of which they would have to cover clothing, credit card and other debt, child care and education costs, in addition to $5,882 in annual out-of-pocket medical expenses for which families will be responsible. |
| 5. This plan is similar to the Massachusetts plan, which makes health care affordable. | Many Massachusetts residents forgo health care because they can’t afford it.
A 2009 study by the state of Massachusetts found that:
|
| 6. This bill provide health care to 31 million people who are currently uninsured.
|
This bill will mandate that millions of people who are currently uninsured must purchase insurance from private companies, or the IRS will collect up to 2% of their annual income in penalties. Some will be assisted with government subsidies. |
| 7. You can keep the insurance you have if you like it. |
The excise tax will result in employers switching to plans with higher co-pays and fewer covered services.
Older, less healthy employees with employer-based health care will be forced to pay much more in out-of-pocket expenses than they do now. |
| 8. The “excise tax” will encourage employers to reduce the scope of health care benefits, and they will pass the savings on to employees in the form of higher wages.
|
There is insufficient evidence that employers pass savings from reduced benefits on to employees.
|
| 9. This bill employs nearly every cost control idea available to bring down costs.
|
This bill does not bring down costs and leaves out nearly every key cost control measure, including:
|
| 10. The bill will require big companies like WalMart to provide insurance for their employees
|
The bill was written so that most WalMart employees will qualify for subsidies, and taxpayers will pick up a large portion of the cost of their coverage. |
| 11. The bill “bends the cost curve” on health care.
|
The bill ignored proven ways to cut health care costs and still leaves 24 million people uninsured, all while slightly raising total annual costs by $234 million in 2019.
“Bends the cost curve” is a misleading and trivial claim, as the US would still spend far more for care than other advanced countries. In 2009, health care costs were 17.3% of GDP. Annual cost of health care in 2019, status quo: $4,670.6 billion (20.8% of GDP) Annual cost of health care in 2019, Senate bill: $4,693.5 billion (20.9% of GDP) |
| 12. The bill will provide immediate access to insurance for Americans who are uninsured because of a pre-existing condition. | Access to the “high risk pool” is limited and the pool is underfunded. It will cover few people, and will run out of money in 2011 or 2012
Only those who have been uninsured for more than six months will qualify for the high risk pool. Only 0.7% of those without insurance now will get coverage, and the CMS report estimates it will run out of funding by 2011 or 2012. |
| 13. The bill prohibits dropping people in individual plans from coverage when they get sick. | The bill does not empower a regulatory body to keep people from being dropped when they’re sick.
There are already many states that have laws on the books prohibiting people from being dropped when they’re sick, but without an enforcement mechanism, there is little to hold the insurance companies in check. |
| 14. The bill ensures consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to challenge new insurance plan decisions. | The “internal appeals process” is in the hands of the insurance companies themselves, and the “external” one is up to each state. Ensuring that consumers have access to “internal appeals” simply means the insurance companies have to review their own decisions. And it is the responsibility of each state to provide an “external appeals process,” as there is neither funding nor a regulatory mechanism for enforcement at the federal level. |
| 15. This bill will stop insurance companies from hiking rates 30%-40% per year.
|
This bill does not limit insurance company rate hikes. Private insurers continue to be exempt from anti-trust laws, and are free to raise rates without fear of competition in many areas of the country. |
| 16. When the bill passes, people will begin receiving benefits under this bill immediately
|
Most provisions in this bill, such as an end to the ban on pre-existing conditions for adults, do not take effect until 2014.
Six months from the date of passage, children could not be excluded from coverage due to pre-existing conditions, though insurance companies could charge more to cover them. Children would also be allowed to stay on their parents’ plans until age 26. There will be an elimination of lifetime coverage limits, a high risk pool for those who have been uninsured for more than 6 months, and community health centers will start receiving money. |
| 17. The bill creates a pathway for single payer.
|
Bernie Sanders’ provision in the Senate bill does not start until 2017, and does not cover the Department of Labor, so no, it doesn’t create a pathway for single payer.
|
| 18 The bill will end medical bankruptcy and provide all Americans with peace of mind.
|
Most people with medical bankruptcies already have insurance, and out-of-pocket expenses will continue to be a burden on the middle class.
|
*Cost of premiums goes up somewhat due to subsidies and mandates of better coverage. CBO assumes that cost of individual policies goes down 7-10%, and that people will buy more generous policies.
Documentation:
- March 11, Letter from Doug Elmendorf to Harry Reid (PDF)
- The AHIP Plan in Context, Igor Volsky; The Max Baucus WellPoint/Liz Fowler Plan, Marcy Wheeler
- CBO Score, 11-30-2009
- “Affordable” Health Care, Marcy Wheeler
- Gruber Doesn’t Reveal That 21% of Massachusetts Residents Can’t Afford Health Care, Marcy Wheeler; Massachusetts Survey (PDF)
- Health Care on the Road to Neo-Feudalism, Marcy Wheeler
- CMS: Excise Tax on Insurance Will Make Your Insurane Coverage Worse and Cause Almost No Reduction in NHE, Jon Walker
- Employer Health Costs Do Not Drive Wage Trends, Lawrence Mishel
- CBO Estimates Show Public Plan With Higher Savings Rate, Congress Daily; Drug Importation Amendment Likely This Week, Politico; Medicare Part D IAF; A Monopoloy on Biologics Will Drain Health Care Resources, Lancet Student
- MaxTax Is a Plan to Use Our Taxes to Reward Wal-Mart for Keeping Its Workers in Poverty, Marcy Wheeler
- Estimated Financial Effects of the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2009,” as Proposed by the Senate Majority Leader on November 18, 2009, CMS (PDF)
- ibid
- ibid
- ibid
- Health insurance companies hang onto their antitrust exemption, Protect Consumer Justice.org
- What passage of health care reform would mean for the average American, DC Examiner
- How to get a State Single Payer Opt-Out as Part of Reconciliation, Jon Walker
- Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies, CNN.com; The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Section‐by‐Section Analysis (PDF)





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About FDL Action
Oh GO JANE!
Absolutely great Fact Sheet.
Troll repellent.
Wow. Great post Jane! Can we copy and paste it to other sites like KOS?
Well, there it is folks.
Watch for incoming, now….
Oh so you expect us to believe the “facts” rather than Obama’s rhetoric?
/snark
In regards to an earlier thread about being thrown under the buss…
I have an idea. If they want to keep throwing us under the bus, why don’t we bring some tools with us next time and convert the thing to bio-diesel while we’re down there.
P.S. I would love to have just that chart as a stand-alone page I can link to from Facebook etc. Some people might be deterred by seeing all those words before they get to the easier-to-read table.
This is a health bill for the political health of President Obama. He tied himself to a corrupt PhRMA and they now own him.
Jane rocks.
Correction???
“But perhaps most profoundly, the bill does not mandate that people pay 8% of their annual income to private insurance companies or face a penalty of up to 2%”
Should that be DOES mandate?
Copy. Paste. Clip. Could that work?
Thank you. Wonderful work.
Outstanding rebuttal, Jane…detailed and even footnoted. Firedoglake should e-mail this to every still-undecided House member.
Isn’t it just awful when you have to agree with Boehner? What a world.
Love the FACT sheet getting ready to re-post at my own blog. Great work Jane. It’s amazing how little were getting after such a Titanic struggle. This bill could have been written by the BV$H regime from what I can see. It’s almost like a mirror image of the Medicare Part D bill the Dems. fought tooth and nail against a few yrs. ago. This sucks and proves what many have been saying for decades , that both major parties are owned and operated by the same Fortune 500 companies. I’m personally abandoning the Dem. ship after this crushing experience. I’ve been a community activist and Prog. Dem. for 45 yrs. but no more. I’m dropping the Dem. party membership and becoming an Indep. Progressive . I will not give $$, time or votes to Corporatist candidates. You want to take $$ from these SUPER SIZED PEOPLE go ahead but you don’t get anything from me.
If the Dems think this POS is going to help them in Nov and in 2012, I pity them. I would bet that most people who are screaming for this to pass think it kicks in immediately and it’s going to be a shock to them.
I’d love that, too and I’d tweet it and facebook it until it was blue in the face!
What a great FACT sheet – although I wish it did not represent the actual facts.
While I expected to be sold out by the Dems, there is still a part of me that cannot believe this is actually happening.
Exactly! That’s how we know we’re living in a nightmare!
Addition:
Whenever someone mentions stocks going up or down, one should always compare to a broad index, say Dow: “health care stocks have risen 28.35%.” Dow is up about 10% over that time…
One has to wonder if Obama prefers a big defeat in November. Perhaps he would welcome a defeat just as Iran would welcome an Israeli invasion. Be careful what you wish for, Democrats!
That definitely sums it up. What a list.
OMG. Thank you for the truth telling.
IMO the most important question–knowing everything we know about ENRON, World Com, Merryl Lynch, Etc., etc.,– is why should we prefer to give 8% of our yearly income to a private insurance company that has already proven that it does not have its customers’ interests at heart?
Why trust private business more than a government program over which voters have some control?
Crazy.
“Can you imagine a better reform? Sure. … But an ideal plan isn’t on the table. And what is on the table, ready to go, is legislation that is fiscally responsible, takes major steps toward dealing with rising health care costs, and would make us a better, fairer, more decent nation.”
— Krugman
This is Krugman the Democrat talking, Krugman the Nobel Laureate is phishing.
“There is insufficient evidence that employers pass savings from reduced benefits on to employees.”
There is NO evidence. Employees salaries are set by the labor market. An employer will raise salaries only if adequate employees cannot be found at the current level. Or possibly to boost moral, and help retain employees, but again, that is controlled by the labor market and not usually by the ‘good graces’ of the employer.
I think he does want a defeat in November. The all and powerful Rahm probably believes that a Republican House victory in 2010 ensures an Obama victory in 2012 (just like it did for Clinton in 1996).
And a Republican Congress will totally free Obama to govern like the Republican he really is.
ACTUALLY the evidence is the opposite
right now businesses are struggling, they will keep any added profit they can muster, even in times of plenty, in times of hardship they have no choice
the ONLY time they pass their savings off to labor is when they are negotiating a new contract when there is wage pressure higher
right now there is wage pressure lower so the reverse is true
Yay Jane!
Thanks for this breakdown
Sadly, real reform could have been done. This bill squanders the opportunity of a generation.
Fantastic!
Edit: Factastic!
As demi says in comment @ 14:
True, but Boehner’s only complaining about it because the Dems have scored for AHIP, PhRMA, and other special interests. The Republicans could easily have been the ones to have drafted legislation like this, full of giveaways and gifts for the corporations. The Democrats beat them to it.
So isn’t it just awful whens Democrats are trying to beat Republicans by acting like Republicans and then accusing their own base of disloyalty when we complain about it.
This…is a POS. It also hurts (I am taking a ‘throws xxx under the bus’ vacation)women, LGBT, and other groups terribly. This is not health care reform. This is another transfer of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the upper classes. Period.
I am thinking the same thing.
Thank You! Jane
The above information I have a feeling will be sent to a lot of Democrats.
Jane just shattered the idea that the current Dems in congress follow the ideals of TRUE DEMOCRATIC HEROES like FDR, LBJ, JFK, Ted Kennedy, etc.
Ted Kennedy never would have supported a health care bill like this, and any congress person that says he would have support a piece of crap like this is just spitting on the legacy of Ted Kennedy.
I have a feeling that millions are going to read what Jane just wrote before the Novemeber elections.
Well done on JK USA at CNN, Jane. I was particularly happy to hear your last comments about the dangerous precedent that’s being set. Was that only for online, or will it appear on television, too?
The american public is an externality to be ignored by Congress as long as they engage in petitioning only. Should the public wake up and take it a bit more personally, remedies are in the works:
“McCain and Lieberman’s “Enemy Belligerent” Act Could Set U.S. on Path to Military Dictatorship”
“Whenever within the United States, its territories, and possessions, or outside the territorial limits of the United States, an individual is captured or otherwise comes into the custody or under the effective control of the United States who is suspected of engaging in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners through an act of terrorism, or by other means in violation of the laws of war, or of purposely and materially supporting such hostilities, and who may be an unprivileged enemy belligerent, the individual shall be placed in military custody for purposes of initial interrogation and determination of status in accordance with the provisions of this Act.”
Jane – great interview on CNN!
I agree, thank you Jane.
We’ve all known what the problems are, but actually having them in list form really helps.
actually nobody here is agreeing with Boehner. His argument, or any Republican’s, for that matter, is not real. It’s just a bunch of words strung together. His “argument” has no reality. It would shift immediately if the Democrats proposed something else.
However there is the illusion that it’s a real argument and an illusion that it’s the same thing that we believe. I think it’s more realistic to say “isn’t it interesting that our opinion resembles Boehner’s BS?”
Again Jane thank you for this List!
Brilliant Jane and FDL team. FDL you all and I mean every member of the FDL team are my heros. I can’t wait for the Supreme Court to rule on the individual mandate. When the mandate is declared unconstitutional the whole house of cards will fall.
Yes, a POS.
But consider the “learning moment”.
The shattering of illusions is an important step.
Sadly, Toby, this was all quite predictable, however, many more are now aware.
We have not suffered ANY defeat, the failure is that of the ruling classes.
The consequences of this POS will resonate through several generations and as reality, the hard truth of things, dawns on more and more human beings, actual change will, painfully, come about.
The Powers That Be have shown the entire world their true colors, and if they are so maddened with blood lust that a war, which will soon become a nuclear war, with Iran is their next chosen big blunder, they will simply hasten the day when they are a utter laughingstock. And, on that day, they will be finished because fear will no longer “work”.
Truth to tell.
DW
The Democrat leadership believes that the voters are serfs.
They will learn come this November.
Kill this bill = agreement with Boehner.
That’s assuming Diebold and ES&S are to be relied upon to do a factual count. I wouldn’t take that wager.
Jane!
Well done. You’re always so calm on teevee and it really gives your argument a solid chance.
I wish the whole setting back women’s rights 30 years thingy got some air but I must say “John King U.S.A.” sure does look folksy in his (villager gasp…) Blue Jean Dungarees….
PS
How sick is the world now when Erik Erik Sun doesn’t sound that insane?
My dad who is management at a midsize company almost fell on the floor laughing when I tried to explain the CBO’s thinking behind the excise tax.
Good analysis
One Question
(1)If the bill is not passed, when will we achieve real reform?
Please give a timetable
I don’t think we even agree there. He doesn’t care one way or another about this bill. Kill it, don’t kill it, doesn’t matter to him, except what it represents in his political game.
Again, I’m saying there is a superficial agreement. It *looks* like we agree. But there’s no substance to his end. It’s vaporous.
That’s a pretty large number of myths for any legislation that gets pushed so furiously by a political party. One is left wondering why the Democrats are so desperate to pass mythical legislation. Oh, wait, its an election year. I wonder if THAT has anything to do with it?
Looks like you just outlined the progressive issues for the 2010 campaign and the agenda for Congress in 2011. Just look at how many dates there are past 2012. The good provisions can be accelerated. The bad can be fixed through legislation. And it won’t face the uphill climb of “ONE SIXTH OF THE ECONOMY” any more. It will be legislative technical changes to an already existing law.
If the bill doesn’t pass, we’ve got that “ONE SIXTH OF THE ECONOMY” narrative to defeat before we can move forward. If it does, we have this list of what needs to be done next. One way or the other the battle continues. The list helps.
Emperor Obama I wants you to give all ur moneyz to the insurance companies.
jane Says: “A middle class family of four making $$66,370 will be forced to pay $8,628 per year for insurance.”
You mean a family that earned money but gets no employer benefits? Come on jane – this doesn’t fly…
you sound as desperate as the Republicans -
Great fact sheet, thanks Jane.
who cares what the Minority Leaders think other than Obama, as long as he’ll help kill this POS – i’m good with Boehner on the action.
Thanks Jane!
That’s an interesting chart – can we see your sources? or are FDL truths immutable?
Which Side Are You On?
if not this bill, when will we achieve real reform? Good question. This bill, of course, does not qualify as reform in terms of anything good for the people.
So your question works whether or not this bill passes. When will we achiever real reform? Personally I believe the answer is “never”. I’m pessimistic about anything changing. I doubt that I’ll believe the next person who promises “change”. Not naming names, of course.
When the Congress and White House are run by people who care about the public, then we’ll get reform. But that’s nebulous, isn’t it? It could be 100 years, or never.
You ask, we deliver: http://firedoglake.com/fdl-fact-sheet-the-truth-about-the-health-care-bill/
The Republicans want this bill, without their fingerprints. It’s essentially a Republican bill.
Lookin’ sharp.
Thank you, Jane, excellent work, as usual. I got as far as the ChinaMart subsidies and could take no more.
Is there really any hope for Plan B? Or anything better?
Never mind, I forgot for a second there who owns the White House and Capitol Hill. Let them continue to dig their own grave. Maybe something more egalitarian will rise from the ashes.
Yet another outstanding myth buster from Mz. Hamsher and FDL . . . thanks all!!!
I couldn’t watch the CNN feed, got a Flash install popup that froze the window. I installed most recent Flash from Mac OSX, but still got the same problem. Any McPups out there with a solution? I have intel duelcore, OSX 10.4.11.
Speaking of myths, why would Andy Stein write this misleading article? It seems to refer to ‘the left’ which is not the left I know it to be . . . and lumps people together IN SUPPORT of the POS Bill, with NO mention of ‘the left’ I know of that’s utterly and completely opposed to the POS Bill?
I’m Confused, Is This Veal Penning, Yet Again? From A Union Leader/Activist?
Ask him how he does a 20-year projection. I suspect that he doesn’t have to, or if he does it is done with what those in management call a SWAG. Ten years and twenty years are pretty unrealistic time frames, unless you can account for alternative scenarios.
Anyway, the CBO scoring is not an economic projection, it is political cosmetics to allow Congress to spend money or cut money, depending on their proclivities. Having bosses from both parties means that the narrative out of CBO is likely one which tolerable enough to both sides and that they can embrace as expert testimony.
Thanks Jane, I needed that!
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Politics indeed make strange bed fellows.
Well, like you Jane I’m on the rethugliCANTS side as well. After all, it’s better to be a good left wing loser and live up to our perception as losers than say, work to improve on any start-up HCR legislation that might get passed. After all, having nothing to work with is the only rational way to eventually get everything at once. “One step forward – two steps back” is my motto in 2010 also.
You’re right Jane, scrap this bill and start over after the 2012 elections. I’m pretty sure the rethucliCANTS will be much easier to work with then.
Truth be told I don’t give a shit one way or the other – I have VA coverage (the BEST!) and will be dead by the time this country – if it ever does – gets around to the PERFECT, ONE-TIME health insurance and health care reform that lefties are holding out for.
Rejoice progressives! We win if this starter bill isn’t passed and for the rest of our fellow citizens in the ever-shrinking middle class I say…Tough Shit – don’t get sick and if you do, die quickly.
PS: Anyone gonna e-mail these FDL talking-down points over to the GOP and Tea Baggers, they will certainly appreciate it…
PPS: Don’t bother flaming me for being a snark because like rethugliCANTS I know your “taking umbrage” and not really fighting for anything realistic.
yep. If this bill, exactly as is, had been proposed by Republicans in 2008 the Democrats would have screamed bloody murder instead of accepting mandates, abortion restrictions, etc.
And the sad, funny thing is, this does a lot of things that Republicans like. Now Democrats like it too, but only because it came in disguised as a Democratic plan.
Btw, I just made a contribution to FDL and would like to encourage others to do the same.
https://secure.firedoglake.com/page/contribute/donatetofdl
I’ve learned so much from everyone at Firedoglake and have felt like I have a voice since I’ve first started coming here. Thank you!
https://secure.firedoglake.com/page/contribute/donatetofdl
Now all we need do, SD, is to get this Fact Sheet to as many hearts and minds as possible.
DW
“I don’t mind losing when we lose, but I hate losing when we win.”
Election pressure can be a powerful tool in the hands of the progs.
If this POS fails, the pressure mounts and WE progs get to reapply it, over and over, daily, as it mounts higher and higher as the clock ticks to November.
So far, the MSM and the Dem Party (and Congress and now unions) have spun a corporate giveaway as ‘reform’, but that narrative will continue to collapse for the masses as they become more and more aware and the clock continues to tick to November and the Dem’s realize they can’t win without the progs.
On the other hand, I’m thinking this POS will pass, and after that I’m no where NEAR as confident as you and others who claim ‘we can fix the bad parts later’, regardless of the 1/6th theory. If it passes, the corps own the country, period. Even states rights to sue for the mandate will be shot down by Supreme’s, if it ever GETS that far.
I lack the confidence you have, but if you got some good ammo to make me feel better about it all I’d sure like to hear it!!! I could USE a reason not to feel so damned down about it all . . . .
starter bill? I have no faith that Congress will get around to fixing this. It’ll sit there for years and years until it’s repealed because of its serious flaws.
Throw the bill out. It is pure corporate evil. I agree with the previous poster that the Republicans want this bill — just without their fingerprints; it makes their corporate benefactors happy and when people realize that they will be FORCED to buy insurance from the evil industry, nobody will vote Democratic again.
Did good old Yogi Berra utter those words?
Great Post!
I will take no pleasure in reminding Dem party loyalists We Told You So (WTYS) when the blinding light of reality puts the zap on their heads.
Some may say WTYS is childish or just plain mean. Sorry, but that is just how I roll. I said WTYS to the neocons when the going swimmingly Iraq business blossomed into SNAFU on steroids. I said WTYS to fiscal conservatives when BushCo jacked the deficit/debt beyond (their) belief.
It would be discriminatory to exclude people just because they have a D after their name. (I left the D Party when Pelosi failed to oppose the Iraq cluster).
Perchance to dream, WTYS may even bring back the Ds to the bosom of the reality based community; lessons will be learned and we will knock back some beers after crying in them.
I was watching Obama’s speech; you’d think he just saved every American from the Apocalypse. I never heard him once mention the fine print that’s in this bill; the 4 year wait for the preexisting conditions ban, anti-trust exemptions, excise tax, nothing. All those people shaking their heads up and down, and eating it all up just made me sick. Great Job on this Jane.
surprised at this post
we lose if this bill passes, the middle class is FAR worse off AND we allow fascism, where the government is acting as a collection arm for private industry
you seem to want “a win for obama” even though the man is acting like a republican with his corporate sponsored and engineered bill
you’re on the wrong boat, we don’t vote for bills simply because somone making believe he is a democrat wrote it
He’s got a “We’ll be invited to the table because we’re important” complex. He doesn’t realize he’ll only be there to wipe it off and put away the dishes after AHIP and PhRMA go off to have cordials with the President.
My hat is off to Jane. I know she doesn’t like me much and I don’t agree with her on some things, but she has done a masterful job on this list. We both agree on the basic idea, though we come at it from two different angles.
She did miss a few things (maybe I just missed seeing them).
1. contrary to what has been said over the last 9 months, the “no pre-existing conditions” rule does NOT take effect for around 3 or more years. Oddly, the dynamic duo of Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh pointed this out yesterday and Robert Gibbs confirmed it at his press briefing. So, everyone who thought that upon passage they could not be turned down for pre-existing conditions was mislead.
Since this seemed to be the best feature Democratic leadership was touting, one wonders WHAT is left that is good? The leaders have been telling their reps that once passed, they will have something good to tell their people back home. Now, it seems, they will be pulling a gun shooting blanks–no immediate benefit to tell anyone about.
Good luck to them.
2. I would have added tort reform to stop defensive medicine as a cost containment idea.
3. I would also have added that Kent Conrad and other Senators are making noises about NOT just rubber stamping the House fix it package. They are going to change it.
It is truly unbelievable what appears to be about to happen.
A bill very few like, that does very little true good, loaded with special deals, passed by a cowardly ‘deem and pass” method, one that will spawn many, many lawsuits will be rammed through to satisfy one person’s ego and save one person behind.
The sad thing is that people are waiting for relief and are expecting it to come as soon as this bill passes. I think they are going to be profoundly disappointed and disaffected when don’t see anything materialize.
One of my fav newgrass bands of all time remains Blue Highway. They did a song called Union Man.
I can’t find a youtube or decent listen of it by Blue Highway, but here’s a version.
Whose Side Are You On, Boys?
some things to consider and debate:
We Stand on the Cusp of one of Humanity’s Most Dangerous Moments
Chris Hedges
“Democracy, a system ideally designed to challenge the status quo, has been corrupted and tamed to slavishly serve the status quo. We have undergone, as John Ralston Saul writes, a coup d’état in slow motion. And the coup is over. They won. We lost. The abject failure of activists to push corporate, industrialized states toward serious environmental reform, to thwart imperial adventurism or to build a humane policy toward the masses of the world’s poor stems from an inability to recognize the new realities of power. The paradigm of power has irrevocably altered and so must the paradigm of resistance alter.
Too many resistance movements continue to buy into the facade of electoral politics, parliaments, constitutions, bills of rights, lobbying and the appearance of a rational economy. The levers of power have become so contaminated that the needs and voices of citizens have become irrelevant”
http://www.alternet.org/media/146005/we_stand_on_the_cusp_of_one_of_humanity%27s_most_dangerous_moments
don’t think so, but a good guess.
But – But – But the Grampa Mac and Snoop Dog bill IS the true character of our nation and it’s people.
We gotta stop bull shitting ourselves with these lefty delusions that we Americans are a people reaching for our so-called “higher moral nature”.
We are well down the road of the newest form of government experiment – 21st Century style Neo-Fascism. Don’t think so?
Well, the SCOTUS decision in Citizens United v FEC just took one “Giant leap for mankind” closer to full realization of that, and, reaffirmed our future as a nation of “governance OF the people, BY the corporations, FOR the corporations so help me Ayn Rand.”
What you are looking at right here is the time-delay suicide of the Democratic Party.
Not a moment too soon? Ugh.
As a big bluegrass fan, I can say I liked the tune very much. I wish there was a video of Blue Highway doing it. Appropriate tune.
Do you need the GOP’s fax number? They will just cream their pants when the get it…
Thank you, Jane, for this post.
This is the interesting point. It’s hard to watch what has been going on and looking at Jane’s diary without asking: this is suicidal for Democrats. They will kill themselves with this bill. So the question is: is that Obama (and Rahm’s) real intention?
I have long taken the position that Obama sold out to Robert Rubin and Goldman Sachs at least as early as 2006. Rubin, who is the real president, spotted a talented senator who could make a speech and sell just about anything. He chose Obama to be a Trojan Horse: Obama was relatively unknown with virtually no record. He could pose as a liberal but is not. The posing was necessary in order for Obama to get the Democratic nomination, as soon as he got that, his “liberalism” dropped (with a FISA flip even before the presidential election). So Trojan Horse Obama brings in a whole package of unpopular programs (bank bailouts; Wall St. bailouts; expansion of the war; and mandated insurance) that favor big corporations but are sold as “reform”. Meanwhile, Obama effectively destroys any remnants of progressivism in the Democratic party (witness the trashing of Dennis Kucinich and the sidelining of Howard Dean) and implements his master’s (Rubin’s) program of state corporatism.
Obama further trashes the Democratic party to make sure that it will be difficult to do anything even after he has left. Hence, Democrats are being forced now to support this bill which they all know is hugely unpopular. The Democratic Party becomes what the Republican Party used to stand for; the GOP turns into the Mad Hatter’s Party.
This is much needed. Even bright people like Glenn Greenwald are repeating the fallacy that the bill somehow covers 30,000,000 more people and therefore we must submit to the corporations’ demands and support this bill.
The group-think on this is absolutely astounding.
Jane, I’m beginning to realize you’re just smarter than most of your cohorts on the blogs, and that is part of the problem.
People who really aren’t all that intelligent will be bamboozled by the Obama PR machine and start robotically repeating: “30,000,000 more, 30,000,000 more, must vote yes, must vote yes.”
I shake my head in astonishment at the stupidity of some supposedly bright, progressive people.
Jane, thank you SO much for this!!!
I’ve been howling for days that the “pro” forces use only cliches, speculation and scare tactics ["if we don't do this now, it will never get done"] or flat out political bs ["Obama can't afford to lose on this"].
It’s WONDERFUL to see some FACTS about what this bill WON’T do, in contrast to the promoters pie-in-the-sky wishes and belief that “we can fix it later.”
Thank you, thank you.
BTW, this should be sent to all the “progressives” — Dennis Kucinichi in particular. Just because they “promised” Obama and Rahm they’d vote for this travesty should not prevent them in going back on their word. After all, they did it to us.
I often enjoy reading Hedges, and he’s a HOSS on military/anti-war issues. Thanks for that one, it was sweet!
You go right on fightin Mesa! If you stick to your guns, you’ll get that yoke firmly placed and locked around your neck in no time.
“We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors… and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.’”
That’s also Obama’s view of governance.
Well, glad there’s another one here at The Lake!! You pick, too? I’m a squarenecked reso dude.
And yes, Blue Highway just rocks, and THEIR version of their song is great. How about that mando break though, in the vid I posted . . . that’s some nice pickin!
This is exactly the chart we needed ages ago to visibly compare each idea side by side with the consequences of the action.
Persoanlly I don’t have the time to sift through the complications and implications of this thing. This is a great service and a damn lot of work. So Thank you. Well done Team Hamsher.
Been thinking about this alot, especially after Demi responded to me on another thread. Really, is this bill about the end of the Dems, or the end of what’s left of progressives in the political debate? Honestly something to think about people. Almost all blogs online are in support of this piece of crap. And of these blogs, most say they are left, liberal and progressive. So, if these sites and their ownership are not real progressives, does that mean the number of true progressives is just not big enough to challenge anyone in the major parties at all? It just seems that even the media, have given some progressives air time, but why if there is no power? Have progressives falsely given themselves more power than they have? Are progressive numbers too small?
Now where have I heard those words before . . . *G*
Nice replay, hoss . . . NeoCon to the core.
Game, set, motherfucking match. (Now fix the typos).
Seriously, I don’t know why, but this post and chart make me feel so damn good–I guess it’s the clarity of it. It sucks when you’re right and groupthink attempts to bully you; conversely, being right is the only and best weapon.
Ignorance is in full bloom. You people should just join the Republican party. You all sound like a bunch of whining children. Because you didn’t get what you want then you don’t think anyone should get anything. Unbelievable.
Can’t read huh? Don’t worry, education will get REFORMED soon too.
Why don’t you respond to Jane’s facts? All you’ve got is sarcasm and shouting. Learn to think for yourself. Your blind loyalty to the Democratic Party is laughable.
whachoo talkin’ ’bout ?!?! oh wait !
zomg! Jane Hamsher is a carbon based life form breathing oxygen . . .just like the Teabaggers !!! run away ! run away!
You’re right Shah, Like any good progressive I cave when challenged.
After all, having nothing to work with really is better than having something to work with. Good strategy.
Besides, we need a new cause du-jour to champion, this HCR stuff is way to hard.
Here’s a good one – Let’s work to stop DADT! All but a handful of lizard-brained, bigoted war mongers support it. We should be able to “win” that one dontcha think?
Interesting theory. But you left out the upcoming assault on social security and Medicare. Bush tried to privatize social security but there was too much opposition. Now, Obama will try and probably succeed. This will complete the intended impoverishment of the masses and turbocharge our transformation into a feudal society, beholden to our corporate masters.
Nice factual argument there– I’m impressed.
I’m curious why there’s often the insertion of the phrase (used many times in Obama’s speech today) – “any NEW policy” will / ban discrimination against pre-existing conditions for children / allow children to age 26 to be on their parents’ policy / etc.”
Will the measures that are supposed to kick in straight away only apply to NEW policies, or will they apply to policies already issued and held? The latter is the reality of how it is being sold to us, but I’m curious if they’re hedging.
Anyone?
You raise a chilling and VERY disturbing thought, that progs ARE extremists, cuz that’s the branding we’ve taken so far.
But this utter and complete cave by the blogosphere, across the board, is frightening, and I don’t get it, not at all.
From Digby to . . . all of them, for the most part. And the snarky one’s make FUN of the ‘Hamsher/Markos’ Divide.
My most POSITIVE thought is that Mz. Hamsher and FDL is just out ahead of the curve again, and although it’s normal info for us progs, the pseudo one’s find it to be too much.
As the reality sets in, the facts assert themselves, others will come around, as they always do (other than the one’s promised a pony and a seat at the Status Quo Table In The Veal Pen).
So, my point is I’m hoping REAL hard, this condition we are witnessing is a temporary one, it’s a transitional phase, and there will be a swing to reality as others get back on board of the reality based train.
Thin gruel, for now, but it’s all I got for hope our numbers aren’t so insignificant.
Election pressure works no matter what happens to the bill. It will be easier for a new Congress to deliver fixes if those are part of its specific mandate and if they know that the pressure will not relent.
And Republicans are not likely to get the boost they expect out of their obstructionism if the bill passes. Unless they hop on board and vote in enough numbers to make it “bipartisan”, which doesn’t seem likely given their painting themselves into the corner with the astroturfed Tea Party gambit. There are some folks who responded to the Tea Party messaging who now have realized that they have been hoodwinked by the GOP into thinking this was a third party movement.
The bill is a POS. The sooner Democrats start saying that what they put on the table was a bill that used Republican ideas going back 20 years and the Republicans wouldn’t vote for their own ideas, the sooner they will make political space for any fixes that might be needed.
And once the bill is passed, the public begins to find out what is really in it. And they can see the parts that really crappy and get angry about them instead of all of the scary nonsense.
that you and your co horts are waving pom-poms and high fiving while your own Party, Leadership, and President rip a long standing plank from it’s own platform amd tell your sisters to get bent. that is unbelievable
Certainly gives food for thought. Either progressives are mostly fakes, or the numbers are too low to influence anything political. Either case is frightening.
banderson2
please post your ideas about the health care bill.
the truth always wins.
have a great day
Like I said hotdog, flame away if you must.
Besides, I like my eggs sunny side up – “yokes” sopped up with toast are the best…
AMF for now FDLers…Gotta go to work now. Catcha all on Monday, after the House does it’s part…
If this passes, the hubris that will envelop Rahmbama is certain to result in the Administrations’ push to see the American people dragging their wretched selves along the trail of tears to serfdom.
While the insurance cartel runs away with all of everyone’s money and the economy accelerates toward depression. Good plan.
So other than calling our reps, anything the community can do to whip Plan B? CW thinks this would disappoint liberals, but yet again they’re so off base as to be in another ballpark (‘Conventional Wisdom’ = ‘Constantly Wrong’?).
It is vastly superior to the POS currently on the table. While it might ‘cover’ fewer folks, the remainder are no worse off than now, and it is a step in the right direction, far more easily improved upon, and way the fuck cheaper – with the money spent going for actual CARE.
Of course, The Actors of The Empire speech, one of my favorite memories, reported by Ron Suskind and often attributed (by me) to KKKarl Rove.
FDL has been studying that reality, and studying all those other realities. Everyday, Firedogs report on the monstrosities of the Empire. But there are just too many scandals and not enough Firedogs. So now FDL gets studied 24 hours a day by everyone else, especially Daily Kos.
Your positive notes, do you include the reality that our elected offals, one and all as proven recently (and forever) are completely bought and owned by Corporate America? See, I don’t see any dif tween Pugs and Dem’s.
They are BOTH fighting for the best they can deliver to their Corporate Oligarchy.
They do NOT have ANY interest at heart for their constituents, as they can get elected with any amount of money from corporate donations regardless of what their constituents might think. Advertising persuades, and money buys ads, and the constituents are NOT well informed and have short memories.
So, I’m still not sure of that ray of sunshine you got, but hang onto it, it may be all we have left . . ;-) Thanks for the chat.
Oh, a real piece of work here.
So, a post above you respond to the accusations that this bill sets us closer to fascism by saying so what, the SCOTUS already sent us there??? In other words, OK, so we’re fascists, give up the fight???
And you seem to care more about what the GOP is going to do with this list than what good or bad the bill does. Fuck that shit. If you care more about the politics of something than about real world solutions, then you’re at the wrong site. I know I’m never going to support a position or person simply because of a letter after there name. After all, that is what the Republican ditto heads do. Perhaps you’ll fit in better there. Especially since this bill is a Republican bill.
But I’ll go ahead tell you what the Republicans would do with this list. They’ll make ad campaigns, one line bumper stickers, and arm their right wing radio hosts with it to blow the Democrats out of the water this year.
And the Democrats deserve every bit of it.
the dems should look to what happened to the social democrats in germany
(the german equivalent to the dems): after the spd passed a controversial
and in spirit deeply conservative welfare reform (turning welfare into workfare) in 2003, that proved to be as disastrous as its critics had predicted , the spd lost so many voters (about 1/3) permanently that it is about to turn from a major political party into a medium-sized political party
A little off topic, but yes I play. Guitar, martin of course. Have a gig tonight actually–guitar, mando, banjo, bass, fiddle.
Jane,
#19: The excise tax is set up to act like the AMT, where every year more and more people fall are taxed even though their policies are worth less and less.
Thank you for this chart. I just wish it didn’t seem like it was too late. And may I add that this place has been my sanity in this debacle? It’s a train wreck happening in front of our eyes, only most of the country is happily cheering the train on.
Yeah, I’ve been thinking about that too, in the last few days.
First, this is one case where I’d be glad to be wrong.
But if we’re right, then the coming collapse will create a new, robust progressive movement. There’s nothing like a depression to change complacent conservatives into progressives.
Nice twist there, I like it!
Yep, they ARE concerned about FDL, and progs, despite the smearing and branding, we worry the fucks, don’t we.
I guess THAT alone is cause for a small smirk . . .
I don’t see it on the posted fact sheet. but apparently within the current language – Big Insurance has 4 more years to continue dropping or denying care for pre existing conditions to any but “newly enrolled children”
these tin eared bastids may have perceived some accountability pushback on this within the last few days, hence today’s wording in the speech
Sweet! Break a leg! Can I ask what part of the country, and a band name or myspace?
Really, I’d caution you from expecting any fixes. There will not be enough Dems in Congress after November to do it–even by optimistic estimates.
Reconciliation can only be used once a year, so that route is out.
Obstructionism is NOT going to penalized. Hell, Brown RAN on obstructing this thing and won in Mass–a Demo State.
On top of it, since almost NONE of the “benefits” of the bill, including not being turned down for pre-existing conditions do NOT take effect for 3 or 4 years, Dems will have NOTHING to tout to their voters.
the Democrats dropped the inititals HCR awhile back since they stand for “Health Care Reform”, replacing it with HIR, “Health Insurance Reform”. When that sounded like a payoff to the insurance industry (which it is) they dropped the I. Seriously. I was shocked to get an email from the DNC talking about “Health Reform”…no, that’s not the shocking part. It was that night when Rachel Maddow, of all people, used the phrase “Health Reform”, a phrase that no one had used until that day, almost as if…gasp!…talking points had gone out.
Be that as it may, I’m willing to accept that there could be something good in the bill but there are lots of things I don’t like, many of them outlined in the chart. Let’s say you’re getting robbed in the street. “Give me your wallet, give me your watch, give me the keys to your car, and here’s a lollipop.” Would you ask “hey, what’s wrong with getting a lollipop? That’s a good thing, right?”
Or did I just exaggerate a little too much?
And after the House does their work..
SEE YOU IN NOVEMBER for the real bloodbath!!!!
One other thing:
We should all of fax this chart to each of the “leaners” and undecideds. I’m going to fax my rep and senators, as well. It has been very strange being in agreement with Kit Bond. That’s a first in all the years I’ve lived in this state. It feels icky, too.
FAX THESE PEOPLE THE CHART!
There ya go, your last line is the capper, and so true.
System’s broke, it has to collapse upon itself as it no longer provides for the masses.
How long to collapse is like asking when ‘real reform’ is gonna happed, sadly.
So we do what we can, and wait to see what happens, and try to live as best as possible in the meantime.
Thanks for thoughts, I’ve overlooked that this morning!!!
Progressive and Liberal are labels without meaning.
Socialist is a label that no faux progs or libs will embrace, so why not draw some real distinctions?!
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is ready for our perusal: New Survey by Former Bush Speechwriter Finds Tea Partiers Largely Ignorant about Taxes, Lots of Other Stuff
California. Band name is Paradise Road (a back country road near here). Wish I had a my space or something. There is a video somewhere. If I can find a link, I put it in.
I for one am not saying that this Healthcare bill does everything. Heck, I am not even saying that it does 50% of what needs to be done. But you don’t sink the entire ship to spite the Captain. If you people put half the energy you use against the Democrats against the Republicans then this bill might just look a little better to your liking.
but that means conservative, neocon and rightwing have no meaning either
Yes progressive numbers are too small, especially outside of highly progressive enclaves. You can see this in the positions of the members of Congress. In a lot of places, the number of progressives is too small to even be spoilers by withholding their support. In others they are just in duck-and-cover mode. What this bill represents is moving back from a W Republican political environment to a Reagan political environment, which is sorta like a Coolidge-Hoover political environment.
What the mushiness of self-professed progressives means is that “liberal” and “progressive” are no longer epithets that block people from considering progressive ideas. It might be within the next five years that “conservative” regains the epithet status it had from 1933-1968.
This bill might very well be about the end of the Blue Dogs Dems. It all depends on who turns out to vote in November.
And it also depends on exactly what you mean by “progressive”, which can range from League of Women Voters “good government” to a 1950s euphemism for Marxian politics (see Todd Gitlin’s memoir of the SDS for this one).
Yeppers! Jump on in there and support the status quo. That’s the ticket, because it gets so many changes done! “Here, eat this shit” “OK, but I don’t like shit, but I will anyway”
And what’s your plan?
nor do you sink your family, brother and sister along with the ship to please the captain
if obama took out the mandate we would be fine wtiht this bill as a start, as it stands now it does far more harm then good and is in fact a corporate gift to an indsutry that is enjoying record profit
Thanks for the .pdf. Already facebooked and tweeted. I’ll repeat the tweets periodically.
FDL Team, Is there something you can do to add a “print” button so we can easily print out posts. Thx. ps. YES, good job!
Glenn Greenwald’s post from yesterday, “Has Rahm’s Assumptions about Progressives been Vindicated” is an excellent post (as always) on the further damage this health care bill will do to progressives. The cave-in by progressives are a clear display that progressives don’t really pose any real threat to getting bills passed, and have ZERO leverage in negotiating anything. This is a huge setback for the left, and it’s quite disappointing that other so-called liberal blog community fell for this.
Purely from a strategic perspective (nevermind the whole list of things that are wrong with this bill) – we have a big problem now. I don’t know what’s so hard for people like Kos etc. to understand this – if you want to get things in bills that you want, you have to be able to stand your ground. This is the strategy that the right uses, and they usually get their way. This bill is so pathetically watered down because because of these tactics. The left has failed time and time again to employ these same strategies. Jane tried to do this, and of course she was pummeled by her own team. Heck, I’m not a policy expert – and maybe there are some minor improvements that this bill will bring about – but common sense tells me that a MANDATE without cost control is a problem, and steps backwards in women’s right to choose is a problem, and giving millions / billions more to insurance companies that are a big reason for the out of control costs is a problem (yet another bailout for corporations). Progressives should have stood their ground on this, and if they did I’m convinced we would have had a better bill today.
The only hope I have is that if things truly remain bad or get worse with respect to health care affordability (which I’m expecting), then eventually it should be inevitable that REAL reform will take place, because people will be up in arms. However – knowing how patient (and uninformed) Americans tend to be when they’re getting screwed over – that time won’t come for a long, long time. In the meantime there will be much suffering for the middle class, and a dark period for progressives where we won’t make much progress on anything. Personally, I can’t say that right now that I’d rush to the polls come next election season to vote Democrat again – I’m so disillusioned at this point that I think I’d just stay home.
simply say
“I am backing passage of a bill that includes the most significant regression on Choice in 35 years”
say it. own it.
I’ve always thought of progressives of having liberal ideologies. Socialist thoughts. But from what I’ve been witnessing online, either I’m wrong, or there are far more “anti-socialist at all cost” party supporters, than there are people who want to progress anything. Just seems this bad legislation is showing that in reality it boils down to just two types of majorities in the US. Dems and Republicans, regardless of how people feel about anything. Status quo.
There probably are very few who would call themselves progressive and mean it (like at this site).
But that’s ok. Because progressive ideas are still popular. Single payer still polls well. Most folks still believe the rich should pay more in taxes. Most folks don’t support every military adventure under the sky.
I think in the places you’re talking about though that these folks aren’t progressive. So although they speak for themselves, I’m just not sure how much they speak for the everyday Joe. What I mean by “not progressive” is they call themselves that, but are more in tuned to being a part of the team, the Democratic team, and to get all the pluses that being part of that team brings.
I’m not too concerned about progressive ideas. They’re still the right ideas whether or not a lot of folks on the D team believe it. The folks out there struggling to pay mortgage, their kids educatin bills, and their parents health care bills are all realists, not as married to one party or the other as you may think. They want solutions, and they’ll be just as easily swayed by progressive solutions (if sold right) as they can be by bullshit solutions.
We’ve just got to get real progressives in positions of making a difference. To that end, IMO, Jane has done about as much as any IMO. She’s awesome.
“If you people put half the energy you use against the Democrats against the Republicans then this bill might just look a little better to your liking.”
Lmao, why in the world would you ever think that???
This bill is the democrats bill, they own it. It is exactly what Obama wanted, the republicans had nothing whatsoever to do with it!
Hilarious!
But you can BUILD on that lollipop. Don’t you see? Next time you see the guy, you can ask for a stick of gum by saying “You were so nice last time around, I know you’ll help me out.”
Hey, look closely at the wording…a middle class family of four = Mom and Dad both probably working. That means Dad probably making in the mid-high $30K range, Mom making in the low $20K to $30K range. At those salary levels, lots of job (most jobs?!) don’t come with insurance benefits. Ex: a non-union carpenter or construction tradesman that makes $18 hr for a 40 hr week and works 50 weeks a year will make $36K. Add in $30K for Mom as a secretary at a small company (without bennies) and you’ve got your $66K.
“Here, eat this shit” “OK, but I don’t like shit, but I will anyway”
Eat it because it’s Obama’s shit. It has a candy coating made of hope and change. You don’t notice the taste of corporate fecal mater until after the candy coating melts in your mouth.
Only one person has answered my question about when.
When do we get real health reform if the bill is not passed?
When?
beg to differ, there is no overarching attempt to pervert their meaning, yet still the bracket was refused by the T’baggers.
The baggers, however nuts many of them are, appear to have defined their own identity. We, on the other hand, are just stuck in a fog, lumped with Kos, and subsumed to the pronouncements of progressives like Yglesias, and Ezra.
Frames are important!
Also – I missed Jane’s appearance on John King. Is there a video of it posted somewhere?
Great post, cregan. Even if Democrats happen–by some fluke–to hold on to majorities in the House and Senate, the will to work on an already-toxic piece of legislation will be at an all-time low.
Others have argued that this bill, if it isn’t passed now, won’t be reconsidered for another generation. I’d argue that the bill will only get pressure from the right and silence from the left after it passes, as Democrat senators will want to distance themselves as far away as possible from language like “mandate” and “excise tax.” They certainly won’t go to the mat for it. Howard Dean was almost certainly right all along, in that regard.
“In response to hotdog @ 117 (show text)
And what’s your plan?”
My plan is to point my finger and laugh in November. Also, I’m irritated by the name “Progressive Caucus” and I’m wondering if there’s a way to strip them of the title and replace it with “Chickenhead Caucus”.
That’s about it so far.
I agree with alot of what you say. I just think it “looks” like there aren’t any, or enough, REAL progressives to make a difference in politics. Sure there are the odd people that support some progressive ideas, but obviously it is all shot down to tow party lines. It’s kind of idiotic IMO. To say, yes I’m a progressive, and then fall in line with any party whether it be Dem or Rep. My point is, after all this fighting (and damn Jane and FDL has fought hard) at the end of the day, there is no support. So running truly progressive candidates sounds great, but won’t change anything at all in the long run. Make sense? Cuz I’m starting to confuse my brain.. :-)
And that was one of my points. There aren’t enough numbers to enact political changes without having to be allies with dipshits like Markos.
It is a Republican bill. Obama even said during one of his “bipartisan” powwows that it was a centrist bill and there was a lot of Republican ideas in it. The GOP is only voting against it because of political reasons, nothing more. It’s a bailout for big business, something GOPers love.
Ironically, the GOP will end up suing the government over this bill, again for political points, even though most of them probably like the damn thing.
Why don’t you answer when do we get real reform if this bill does pass?
That is brilliant! To bad you’re upside down. It is the Captain sinking the ship in spite of his passangers and his sworn duty.
‘K, thanks . . . don’t know why that name is familiar, I’m in Sacto, and a fan of CA Bluegrass Assoc. My two fav fests are the CBA’s Father’s Day and the two Strawberry Music Fests (Memorial/Labor Day Weeks).
Who knows, we may have crossed paths!
Jane, Jane, Jane! Don’t confuse the lemmings, trained seals, pavlovian salivating dogs and bloated union bosses with the facts. This country don’t need no stinkin facts.
First of all, you aren’t getting reform in this bill. So, don’t talk like the choice is reform or no reform. It is no reform, or the chance for reform.
I’ll bet you didn’t know that the insurance companies are going to be able to turn people down for pre-existing conditions for at least another 3 years did you?
Brown hasn’t voted on this bill yet. Most likely he will vote No, but he is up again in 2012. Also, this bill is very much like what already exists in Massachusetts; folks there won’t be experience many changes immediately, just a threat of changes down the road. That might focus their thinking about what to do about the law, and it might not be repeal.
The 2011 budget authorization has not been passed. It could include reconciliation authority for changes to (or additional) healthcare reform, which need not be invoked until after the November election.
Successful obstruction might not be penalized as quickly as failed obstruction. And Brown was not rewarded for obstruction, he was elected on a promise of obstruction. A promise of obstruction–that’s what we had from the progressive caucuses in the House–a promise of obstruction of a bill that lacked the public option.
Having read the bill and the summary of reconciliation, I think there will be enough for Democrats to run on in November in terms of immediate benefits. But Republicans did not obstruct just this bill; they obstructed the recovery act, the budget, extension of unemployment benefits, tax credits for small businesses that hire people, and so on. Democrats by November will has strong results to run on. Whether that excites the base remains to be seen.
at least 5-10 years, in my opinion…
and how do we know this?
we refuse to engage direct critiques of the Capitalist system. We are scared yellow of being called Socialists. There are plenty of people who moved beyond the L/P labels. They just don’t revolve around the FDL universe of reality denial.
Use your “Election pressure” strategy right NOW, not tomorrow when the farm’s been sold and you have nothing with which to bargain. The political calculus here is maddeningly stupid. We’re going to commit election suicide by stabbing everyone in the back, and then try to hold their vote hostage by saying if “you don’t vote for us next cycle, we won’t be able to help you out later?” Insane. Even with 8 months and unlimited money, that’s crazy. It worked on Patty Hearst, but the general populace didn’t grow up daddy’s girls.
Exactly,
I agree, Perris.
NO, this is soon going to be a bill with NO fathers or mothers. It will be an orphan.
The corporations have been using congress, both the rethugs and the democrats, to subvert the constitution for decades, many times with the collusion of the executive branch. The congress was bought years ago.
But now we have to add in the 4th estate. The MSM is now actively aiding the corps in their desire to be the power of the govt.
TV especially has got the power to mold the sheeple. To get the reaction that they want. We are rapidly falling from being a first world nation into being a third world banana republic.
We are not educating our children. 3 out of 10 drop out. Fewer than 50% of kids who start college, graduate. The majority of college freshmen have to take remedial classes to get them ready to take college classes.
I blame school boards and colleges of education. I remember trying to help my kids with math and not understanding just WTH they were even talking about. Number sets? They were trying to teach math theory to JH students? Yet the school boards went along with this experiment as they have done with many others. Ask yourselves this. Can your child do math problems without a calculator? From what I have observed over the years and from what one of my daughters-who teaches math in college-has been telling me for years, the answer would be no. I had a coworker back when I worked for the 2000 census who was a young college student. He told me that for a test his math professor had given them just one problem to solve, but first he took all their calculators away. My co worker-an ex Marine-told me that only he and one other was able to solve the problem with pencil and paper. So what are we doing in schools? teaching kids to push buttons on calculators? Or making them solve problems with pencils and paper? How about assignments where the HS kids simply make copies off the internet or else have their parents do the homework for them. Are our future generations going to be ignorant morons? Some schools are quite good. My kids went to one such school, but I had to live almost 70 miles from work, in another state, to find that school. My youngest daughter had 28 people in her graduating class. Everyone went to college. My daughter is taking 16 credits this semester, and keeping a 3.7 average while doing it. How many kids are prepared to go to college as my 4 kids were? Every one got a college degree, admittedly with the assistance of the VA which paid all the charges and gave them a monthly allowance as well. It was $700 a month for my youngest. How could they do this you ask? Simple, all you have to do is get a 100% disability rating from the VA, after that it is easy.
The corporations are taking over our govt and at the same time killing the goose that gives them all that free money by hogging all they can take at once, making our govt go broke. Oh well, all they need to do is make their congress raise taxes, they can’t borrow any more money. I look back at my 60 years and have to wonder, could we have done something to prevent the fix we are in now? Education of the sheeple maybe? More and tighter regulation of TV content? The ad men have become expert at manipulating people-look at the amount of space on your grocery shelf for water, that comes out of your kitchen tap for almost nothing, yet the sheeple pay big bucks for that same water-We as a people are becoming dumber. Lead in gas? industrial pollution for the last 150 years? I only know what I see and I see kids being taught crap. Religions teaching that the earth is 5000 years old. That men and dinosaurs lived side by side-what, do they believe that the Flintstones was a documentary? Our kids are being taught junk science.
What is the end game? As Jon Stewart pointed out in his sketch making fun of Beck, the end game of Authoritarianism is a theocratic dictatorship.
George Orwell was prescient. He just got the year wrong. History changes almost as soon as it happens. Sheeple believe everything they see on TV,as long as it comes from fox news.
Its really sad when the only real news comes from a couple of comedy shows. TDS and The Colbert Report. Our “news” programs have been co opted by the corps, censorship is happening, not by the govt, but by the corporate owners of the networks. We already have everything that the ignorant tea baggers scream about, but it is the HI companies, not the govt who does them.
I have good HI. At least I thought I did until I had to go to my nearest ER. Where I had to pay 30% because that ER was not in my “PPO plan”. Plus they raised my monthly rate another 10% this year. So I pay more for less every year. At least my wife has really good HI. She pays only 18% for any medical cost(office visit, medical test, inpatient care is free) and her monthly payment is $0. And her meds are free. I only wish mine were as good. And all it took was me getting a 100% disability from the VA.
a funny thing about Markos. He was all about killing the bill, then something odd happened and now he’s very judgmental about anyone who still opposes it.
I’ve liked the guy but lately he has the look of someone who just got his insider’s key. At least on this issue.
Now Obama is giving fiery speeches and using the ill and afflicted as props. The ego maniac has no shame. Where was he last summer. Throwing single payer over the side. The guys a phony but the Democrat lemmings think he’s a messiah.
A Tim O’Brien Tune, No Less!!!
Nice work, if that’s your band!
You are right, I didn’t know about the three year time line.
But why can’t folks tell me when “real reform” will take place?
You are dreaming.
If passage of this bill was going to result in some advance for Democrats, the closer it gets to passage the more their polls would be going up.
As we all know, Obama is going down more even as we speak. Boxer is now behind or even in California of all places. The latest Pew poll shows only 38% support the bill.
If you THINK you have seen anger so far, you haven’t seen anything yet if the bill passes. This is the closest I’ve seen or sensed to a revolutionary feeling in 60 years. Never seen or felt anything like it.
Now, France in 1790′s did experience something similar before they stormed the Bastille. And, I recall someone there said, “Let them eat cake!”
Well, I would respectfully disagree. Most of this bill’s provisions don’t even take place for several years, so they’ll have the excuse that “we have to give this reform chance” for at least the next 5-10 years. And that’s before serious talks begin to start up again.
So, I’ll just respectfully disagree. And I might add that those of us who hope this bill fails would disagree that it’s this bill or no bill, or it’s this bill or no reform. Or even that this bill will get improved. So, if you disagree with all of those assumptions, you’re likely to disagree with us. And while I can’t speak for all who favor this bill not passing, I can speak for me when I say it’s out of genuine desire for real healthcare reform. IMO this bill will kill all chances for real healthcare reform as it will enrich the insurance cartel even more.
I want real reform. I want national health insurance, or single payer. But I would’ve settled for a meaningful public option and other cost controls along with some real regulations with real teeth. This bill does none of that, IMO.
Disagreement is ok. The vileness that places like DKos has been spewing is not ok.
Glenn Greenwald, Jane and others have killed the idea that there is a big difference between Dems and Reps.
The current Dems in congress are more likely to follow Ronald Reagan.
The Base of Democratic party still follows FDR, LBJ, JFK, etc.
This health care debate has open the eyes of a lot of progressives, the current Dems in congress are not working for the people that elected them.
The same has happen with the GOP, thus the completely out of control tea party movement, the GOP elites are trying to control.
Jane Post destroys the notion that the phony dems in congress are different than their Republican counterparts.
The more the post Jane wrote today circulates, the harder it will be for MoveOn.org, DailyKos, Unions, leaders to keep their members in check, the truth kills stupidity.
Ask Robert Gibbs you can only lie as long as people allow you to lie, once someone asks you the correct question, and answer is in writing, you may have to stop with the lies
Yes, it is. You found it.
Not all bloggers on Daily Kos, to use a large site as an example, are progressive Democrats. In fact, the proportion of members of the “Democratic wing of the Democratic Party” is smaller than it was before the election.
And because it is such a large site, I sense that some political operatives are trying to play it to influence opinion. No evidence, just some intuition from the comments.
By extension, to a smaller extent not all bloggers on most “progressive” sites are progressive.
And yes, there is two kinds of avoidance going on. The first is avoidance of movemental politics (the “dirty fucking hippie” kind) and the second is the anti-socialist bias that was introduced into the Democratic Party through the McCarthy era. And you see how that is exploited by the GOP accusations of “socialism”, “Stalinism”, etc. — and like battered spouses…
we can’t say when it will happen because we don’t know. It will take electing people committed to getting it done. As long as the “Progressive Caucus” folds as easily as it did here it’s not going to happen. We can’t even count on them! Sad, isn’t it? We’d need to at least double that Caucus but who knows? Could never happen.
Which leaves us with the question “is this bill any good?” Because this is what we have now.
Did you miss the anti-war revolution in the 60′s?
Hmmm….I don’t know…I’ve always considered myself socialist, liberal and progressive. I’ve never really liked labels, but how else to define people that think like you. Unfortunately, this debate has shown, few people think like me. Guess I’m an outcast. Or maybe lied to and used like so many people claiming the progressive label? Used by the Dem Party. Used by sites that proclaim they have different ideals, and in the end just back the status quo as long as their party wins? Time to go independant.
I think it will only happen when level headed people take a level headed approach.
Have complete, full, wide open hearings. Don’t block anyone. Fully examine single payer, fully examine whatever France of Germany is doing. Fully examine tort reform. REALLY look at from all sides in an open way.
Take the time, refine it down.
Oh, but we’ve taken the time, a whole year. No, you took a few months to work behind the scenes, hand everyone a take or leave it bill, and the year has mainly been taken up with arguing about the back door bill. NOT what to do or what is reform, but THIS back door deal.
And if the bill dies, what is your first move on Monday? What is the strategy then? Pointing fingers and laughing?
I guess you’re missing the point, this is not a democratic bill this is a corporate bill brokered by obama who is not acting like a democrat at all
the democrats, (us) are not going to vote for a bill simply because a democrat brokered it, although some have been corrupted along with obama and the republicans, not all have and certainly the democratic voters have not
No, I was there, but I remember it being about love.
THIS is going to be about anger, and pissed off people.
Wish you were right, but you know what? You can lead a Kos to a thought, ah, but you can’t make him think.
“I’ve always considered myself socialist, liberal and progressive.”
there are evidently big distinctions, you cannot hope to be convincing and true if you’re all over.
I also can’t tell you when the sun will nova, but it’s likely to do so at some point.
The American public can be convinced of anything. Iraq was responsible for 9/11 or a piece of crap Republican legislation is reeeform. Most Americans are either terminally ignorant or terminally compromised.
It appears all in the Senate have been corrupted. Every D Senator voted for this bill. Every one.
“Having read the bill and the summary of reconciliation, I think there will be enough for Democrats to run on in November in terms of immediate benefits.”
AHIP’s money will help, too.
How cynical is this?
My guess is, Jane was invited to appear this am on CNN BEFORE Obama & team put the word out, and that she will be the one person this weekend who will NOT be invited to appear ANYWHERE of consequence, not even Fox-TV.
I don’t know where you are, but in my area which of rights should be bristling with Tea Party types, I don’t sense the anger that I see on progressive blogs.
The polling has been skewed by the fear, uncertainty, and doubt about what is in the legislation and what that means. The poll that will be indicative of November will come six weeks after the passage or failure of the bill–when it sinks in to folks exactly what is in the bill. I am not clairvoyant; I don’t know how it will break, but my intuitions are that passage is not a suicide mission for Democrats. And sucks the air out of the “government takeover of healthcare” story of the GOP.
Dude, are you still arguing about the terminology? I left about 30 minutes ago and come back and you’re still arguing about this. OMG.
What does POS stand for? I have been coming here for a long time but I haven’t figured this one out yet.
Yup. There is no way to get anything done with congress and Obama, it’s pointless to pretend there is. Only suckers play that game.
I used to be a rabid dem, now I’m just rabid.
If you can’t see the television ads now that will show Uncle Sam with a gun forcing Joe Taxpayer to hand over his money to the evil insurance corporations, and can’t see the magnitude of what THAT’S going to do Democrats for passing this, then you’re not looking.
POS
Piece of Shit
PhRMA’s money and AHA money, but I think AHIP will go with the GOP, Lincoln, a few Blue Dogs, and some key folks of both parties on the HELP, Budget, Finance committees in the Senate.
Kent Conrad will get his check from Blue Cross/Blue Shield of North Dakota although he’s not running this year.
That’s not math you’re talking about, it’s arithmetic. There’s a huge difference. I don’t know why some people think it’s terribly important to know how to do arithmetic on paper. It’s understanding how the problem is set up that counts.
I’ll bet you walked to school five miles through the snow too.
have got anything substantive? or just barking?
We’ll get to see.
http://maplight.org/
Looks like just more barking.
The links at the bottom of the PDF don’t work for me. Has anyone else tried them? It’s certainly possible my PDF reader isn’t recognizing the format. They nice and blue and underlined, but they don’t work.
I’ve added a link to this article at my blog. Thanks for putting it together.
It’s not a bad idea, sorta like the Base Closure Commission.
I’m an optimist, but I don’t see any chance (in the current environment) where that will occur…
I’ve decided to roll the dice…
If it hasn’t worked so far, it won’t work in November. Folks know all the negatives. The news will be the positives. Like I said earlier, polling six weeks out will give an idea of what November will look like.
BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
arithmetic IS math. So’s algebra, trigonometry, calculus, vector analysis, topology.
So yes, when I was walking five miles through the snow we did learn something. Ok, two blocks, not five miles. But I did walk.
Did you see the Documentation (w/ references) at the end of the post under the Myth/Fact table?
Past results are no indicator of future performance.
That’s a good one, thanks.
Can I have a pony?
: )
Whistling past the graveyeard much??
OK, guess we’ll see in November.
Good luck with that.
Start over. Push the democratic party to deal using what the people in this country want as a realistic goal, not a bait and switch. Lean left, not right. Offer a CHOICE, you know the thing the President campaigned on, a legitimate public option. Say “We got this close, but our principled base wouldn’t let us compromise away the minimum necessary to actually effect some change,” and see how the support will swell. The republican opposition is at its maximum. HCR passage is now suffering from pissing off the people who want it, not the other way around.
CNN: Can anyone find a link to Jane’s appearance on CNN or youtube or ? thanks!
Fact sheet is up at HuffPost. Comments seem to run about 6-1 against the bill.
I, for one, am very tired of the “you people” meme. Just sayin’
Hey, I thought you changed your handle to fucknoclass? What happened?
Jon Stewart sho is pitching in!
Funny, funny, funny conflation of stupid teabagger mentality with ALL naysayers, ending in a flat statement that this HCR package “pretty much mandates universal health care in America.”
Mandates.
Universal health care.
WHAT?
Those guys wholeheartedly love the employer and individual mandate, all rich fokes do, all insured people also do. I remember a job I had when I was young, my better-paid supervisor holding forth to a captive audience of us underlings on our break that her medical insurance costs 10 times what it should because of us not being insured. She was nasty about it.
I missed it too, I think it will be a while til CNN puts it up.
it’s a difficult problem to solve. Should the bill not pass it’ll be the left that gets blamed. So instead of moving in the proper direction on Monday, those in charge will declare that it wasn’t rightwing enough.
Now with the caving of DK ( having stood in for: a “bastian” of incorruptibility,) and the others one by one falling by the way side.
I have a question here: Why is it that the republicans, stand their ground against such a complete corporate givaway? Is there an identifiable principle holding them in place, because right now, a bunch of them could jump over and seal the deal quick, before it gets away.
Why no republican “cave-ins” on the thing?
could it be they know a democratic suicide plan when they “see it.”
On a bigger scale, this is a way to take things to the right. like nobody saw it coming, that is: An intentional party dissolution, through an outlandish act of foolishness. A year long effort for this…
Oh, the Titanic was the passengers fault and they deserved to die. Sorry my mistake.
Absolutely correct. Assuming the bill passes, I fully expect the Dems to trumpet the victory, and sing the praises of the bill. But between now and November, when people see that those expected benefits have not materialized, the Dems have a problem.
In retail this is called Overpromising and Underdelivering. You tell the customer, for instance, that Cool Gadget will be in their hands in 3 days (best case scenario). Instead it arrives in 7 days. They are pissed.
Underpromise and Overdeliver works this way: Tell the customer the Cool Gadget will arrive in 10 days. When it comes in “early” they be happy.
The Dems fuk’d this one up horribly.
The insurance anti-trust exemption is still in the legislation Mr. Bipartisan wants. Phony bill. The more people bother to learn about this Republican bill the more they oppose it.
I know, I told my boss that, but she insists on being a bitch.
heh, the connection to ‘class warfare’ was too tenuous, hardly worth the change of cadence. :•)
That’s where leadership comes into play. Dean?, Dennis?, Pelosi?(snark), Reed? (more snark), President? (triple snark), ANYBODY?! can you stand up?
Jane?
re: rich folks liking the mandate…
it’s odd. There must be a word for it…
Anyway, “what about those who are poor? Who can’t afford this?” and the answer is “yes, those poor people are costing ME money! They’ll have to pay their own way”.
That is one weird way to look at this.
Musing:
1. The bill fails. The Democrats lose in November, and the new Rebulican Congress enacts this Bill almost verbatim.
Obama signs it and calls it a Bipartisan victory.
2. The Bill Passes. The Democrats lose in November, and the new Rebulican Congress enacts cuts the subsidies to “balance the budget”.
Obama signs it and calls it a Bipartisan victory.
Dennis Kucinich has been working the room like mad begging all the hold outs to vote yes, amazing all those who behold him at it.
(TPM)
My something-something on my computer won’t let me create a link.
It’s probably old news anyway. It happened yesterday.
So if you’re about to lose your house, you don’t have much to feed your kids, your power is about to be cut off, you cashed your subsidy check months ago, and you can’t write that check to Aetna – you LOSE your insurance for non-payment, and THEN you get FINED?
Don’tcha call me St. Peter, cause I can’t go. I owe my soul to the company store.
Awesome, awesome work, FDL writers and researchers (and spreadsheet designers). Thank you for pulling this together.
Actually, if this dog PASSES the left will get blamed, and US “lefties” by extension, literally, blamed by our next-door neighbors who never liked our bumper stickers anyway.
BLAM! They already swore it’s time to water their tree with our blood.
This is a keeper. Thanks for all the hard work.
This is a weak argument; the bill is already all that whether it passes or not. You know as much as anyone it’s fallacious to anticipate Republican behavior based on objective facts like whether a bill passed or not, or whether a given representative voted for it or not.
The flip side of this is that you assume the ambivalence and apathy of the Democratic base to be a constant. I’m part of the Democratic base and I’m ambivalent and apathetic about a mandate to buy overpriced private insurance, but at the very least, on a sporting level, I’m going to revel in seeing Republicans lose on this one and the inevitably ugly Republican counteroffensive may leave me defending the defensible elements of this bill “passionately”.
conversely: if this dog doesn’t PASSE the left will get blamed, and US “lefties” by extension, literally, blamed by our next-door neighbors who never liked our bumper stickers anyway.
It’s a win win for Mr. Bipartisan.
This bill, among so much else, should serve to remind folks of the role the Democrats play in the American political system:
The Democratic Party plays an indispensable role in society’s political machinery. This doesn’t mean it has any power, in terms of controlling the state or setting policy. It means that without the existence of the Dem Party, the US could no longer maintain the pretense that it’s a “democracy.” If the Dem Party disintegrated, the US would be revealed for what it really is — a one-party state ruled by a narrow alliance of business interests.
The party’s true function is thus largely theatrical. It doesn’t exist to fight for change, but only to pose as a force which one fine distant day might possibly bestir itself to fight for change. Thus the whole magic of the Dem Party — the essential service it renders to the US power structure — lies not in what it does, but in its mere existence: by simply existing, and doing nothing, it pretends to be something it’s not; and this is enough to relieve despair & to let the system portray itself as a “democracy.”
As long as the Dem Party exists, most Americans will believe we have a “democracy” and a “choice” in how we are ruled. They will not despair, and will not revolt, as long as they have this hope for “change within the system.” From the system’s point of view, this mechanism serves as the ultimate safety valve — it insures against a despairing populace, thus eliminates the threat of rebellion; yet guarantees that no serious change to the system will be mounted, because the Dems weren’t designed to play that role in the first place.
The Democrats are not the “lesser evil;” they are an auxiliary subdivision of the same evil. To understand the political system, one must step back and regard its operation as an integrated whole. The system can’t be properly understood if one’s study of it begins with an uncritical acceptance of the 2-party system, and the conventional characterizations of the two parties. (Indeed, the fact that society encourages one to view it in this latter way, is perhaps a warning that this perspective should not be trusted.)
The Democrats are permitted to exist because their vague hint of eventual progressive change keeps large numbers of people from bolting the political system altogether. Emma Goldman once said, “If voting made a difference, it would be illegal.” Similarly, if the Democrats potentially threatened any sort of serious change, they would be banned. The fact that they are fully accepted by the corporations and political establishment tells us at once that their ultimate function must be wholly in line with the interests of those ruling groups.
Doesn’t the presence of the Dennis Kuciniches et al “prove” that the Democrats are progressive? No. The Kuciniches and are indeed significantly different from the Hillary types — but there are compelling reasons not to get too excited about them, either. First, they are used by the party as a “Left decoration,” simply to keep potential left defectors in tow. Secondly, the party power brokers will NEVER in a million years let the Kucinich faction have any real power.
The existence of a few decent Dems makes no real difference in the overall alignment of the party, and they will never be internally influential. They are a distraction.
For the Democratic Party to even begin to serve as a vehicle for opposing the absolute rule of capital, it would at a minimum have to be capable of acknowledging the conflict that exists between the interests of capital and the rest of the population; and of expressing a principled determination to take the side of the population in this conflict.
A party whose controlling elements are millionaires, lobbyists, fund-raisers, careerist apparatchiks, consultants, and corporate lawyers; that has stood by prostrate and helpless (when not actively collaborating) in the face of stolen elections, illegal wars, torture, CIA concentration camps, lies as state policy, and one assault on the Bill of Rights after the next, is not likely to take that position.
Well, I sent this around to my mailing list, and already the “I didn’t know you’d joined the Tea Baggers” responses are filtering in.
Amazing a) that folks don’t READ [my fabulous in-coming e-mail]; and b) how thoroughly Obama and Friends have brain-washed the public into thinking that any “opposition” to his Wondeful Dream comes from the Right.
Fuck em!
Froomkin is on fire as usual. But this is undermining confidence in our government.
Great post! Where have you been?
second that!
I agree.
Just saying to those who “fear” that the non passage of it will get “blamed” on liberals, it’s really the other way around and going to be a lot more personal.
I’m in Arkansas and will shoot back, so I’ll be fine.
WOW. I like your writing.
Discussing the merits of Socialism or demerits of Capitalism at the Lake? That would be something, indeed!
3,000 miles away & a similar response. But here, the “lunatic left” also earns blame. (that’s you, JH!)
DK had a prime chance to rise by just hanging in tight on this. I can’t see how he missed it, The chance of his career wasted. That’s how it looks to me.
Thanks to Jane and the FDL team for doing the incredible work they do. Most of all, FDL is proof that honesty and common sense are not completely gone from public discourse.
Obama said today in an auditorium filled with trained seals that now was not the time to let the “special” interests win. Now that’s chutzpah!
We did get a few chuckles out of it though. *g*
You’re beginning to sound like me. Hafta make ya an honourary sailor.
By “special interests” he means us.
Tell us something we don’t know. How smugly, sophomorically tautological.
The Republican governor of NJ just cut the state’s education budget 60% and is revoking the working class property tax rebate while not raising taxes on millionaires.
There’s such a thing as bad and worse.
nary a peep from you when Corzine was sinking your State, though, eh?
What about effectively abolishing choice (Roe v. Wade) and payment for the newest generation of cancer-fighting drugs that Jane mentioned? Biologics or something like that. Shouldn’t these criticisms be mentioned?
Thanks, Jane.
Great work, as always.
Silly me! I thought he wanted to convince the seals the insurance companies (special interests) were really opposed to this legislation. They ole bait and switch. They’re salivating with the thought of 31 million new marks and a merging of state and corporate interests.
Don’t you just love how labeling works? Must be a reason it’s considered a rhetorical fallacy…
After listening to Obama’s speech today and the rabid support of lemmings I have no doubt America is a fascist nation.
That all sounds about right,
Somewhere in there too, they have to “frame the debate” and “keep the gate” and so on, but how do you feel about the HCR in particular: this mandate which above was figured to rival income tax in its bite into our pocket books? It’s a new level of something coming here, will the same political architecture outlive the coming realignments in a recognizable form, or what?
Nicely (and very well) said.
Folks are learning.
We are now where the conversation should have been thirty years ago.
What we all stand for is not defeated or lessened or diminished by any of what has gone on these past thirty years, indeed if we put together compelling and human narratives of what we would like to see in future, many will join us.
All the destructive and mindless absurdity we witness, today, only strengthens us, counter-intuitive as that might, at first, seem.
DW
You are still dreaming. If that was the case, the polls would be going up as passage came closer.
If you look at Jane’s summary, you are seeing there is no “there” in this bill. Especially between now and November.
Oh, I think the anger is spread all around. All around. Even those 38% that support the bill are likely only doing it because they feel something is better than nothing. When they find out the “something” is a lot less than they thought, that 38% will melt away.
As Jane showed, the bill is worse the more you find out about it. Not better.
I think both majorities are in danger.
citizen fucknoclass, fuckclass or fuckno?
whichever will get a chuckle from you, SD, I’ll consider it’s adoption.
The only thing that emboldens Christie to pull shit like he’s pulling NJ is liberal capitulation to conservative Democrats. The center shifts ever rightward.
By giving legitimacy to gormless and morally bankrupt nonsense like: “When American citizens tighten their belts, government should follow suit,” a sentiment first articulated by Boehner last year, only to be echoed by Obama this year. It was no accident, no slip of the tongue, something taken out of context–Obama meant exactly what Boehner meant: countercyclical spending is dubious and needs to stop; it’s more important that we stop spending than it is for people to have jobs.
Nah, it was Norske’s use of it that was funny. I like the original.
Back to work.
Namaste
Namaste, SD.
Did he cut the education budget by 60%, too? I hadn’t realized that.
If Democrats do nothing more than pat themselves on the back for their miraculous accomplishment, you are right. And of course the bill gets worse as it nears passage; that’s what Congress is for.
Both majorities were already in danger. Over ten percent of the country of unemployed. That fact is irrelevant to this debate.
I appreciate the substantial objections to this bill but there’s an underlying weakness in the political argument. Republicans are now threatening to campaign on repealing this bill. Let them! That makes it all the easier for Democrats to counter by trying to expand it, especially when given the option of Republican reverse-RobinHoodism in places like NJ and AZ. I think a lot of Democrats and people on the left who support this bill in good faith are hoping that that emerges as a kind of permanent dynamic, a terrain that favors Democrats, and, frankly, the public.
The sitting Legislature is the 214th Legislature of the State of New Jersey. Currently, the Democrats are the majority party in both Houses. In the Senate there are 23 Democrats and 17 Republicans. There are 47 Democrats and 33 Republicans serving in the General Assembly.
Go figure.
I bet Kos is beating his meat while reading the bill.
thanks powwow, it was in response to your suggestion.
Gonna give it our best shot right up to the end.
that was unnecessarily crude
Though this article is largely true.. there’s so much it overlooks
It points out that a family of four with 66k income a year would pay $5,243 a year on health insurance.. what it fails to point out – that it would be a reduction. That’s about $450 a month..There are families of that size paying everywhere from $800 all the way up to $2,000 a month. – the ones paying $2,000 are the high end and not common.. but no matter how you slice it – the $450 for a family of four is better than the current state of things.. also with a mandate the hope is that if nothing else the insurance rate increases can be stabilized.. or even reduced.. as more people join the pool.
The article says that health insurance co’s LOVE the bill.. because stocks went up 28%… amazing how misleading that is considering nearly every stock out there has fared far better than 28% increase.. on the average stocks have been booming for the past 2 years – other than a few exceptions most increased everywhere from 50%-100%.. the health insurance industry has fared miserably in comparison.
Would this bill be a helluva lot better with a public option, or a buy in for medicare? Absolutely! Although the only people who point out such a thing must not have been present for the past year — they missed the continual opposition – they missed the slandering – the govt. take over talk… they missed WHY these things aren’t in the bill.
Now.. as far as a mandate – yes, we need it – you all have health, you all should have insurance. Part of why insurance is so costly now is the fact that it gets purchased once people become sick.. or become concerned with their health – the pool needs to be widened and all people need to pay in to reduce costs.. it’s the most logical thing to address rising prices. How much would car insurance be if you only purchased it when you suspected the thing was about to fall apart? The car insurance companies would price accordingly cause they would know why you were purchasing.
This bill is nowhere near where it should be – but by even your analysis it will reduce prices on insurance – your example of a family of 4 is an example of a group that doesn’t receive the most benefit, but still would have reduced costs compared to our current system.
Yes, everyone will have to pay – something. That’s a smart, well conceived system – shared contribution.. that’s how insurance works best. I know you aren’t happy with the current state of the bill.. it will also likely be improved over time – the reason it is how it is… it’s the most we could get support for. When all get into the pool.. then costs should gradually go down.. and we can also consider further improvements.
I understand the article’s criticism – I just feel it’s overly pessimistic in it’s portrayal – virtually all of the medical associations support the bill – AMA… AARP.. a whole list – they know it isn’t perfect.. but it’s a small improvement by negating pre-existing conditions, widening the pool and still slightly reducing premiums. – it’s a start.
It’s a proposed budget.
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/from-progressive-holdout-to-whipping-health-care—-how-dennis-kucinich-is-helping-dems.php?ref=fpblg
(I don’t know why I can’t make me a cuter link than to just slap the url itself up there. I clickeded the chain, I clickeded the “allow” bar, nothing happens.)
Is this old news now (kucinich actively fighting for more yes votes)?
Great name. Any relation to Charlotte?
I just don’t think this is too crude, at all.
So in other words, “We’re aware of the political instability, therefore we’re going to push a bill on the public they don’t want, that won’t show any real benefit except a giant ugly stepford grin from Pelosi, that will not keep insurance premiums from increasing and not increase anyone’s access to healthcare,” all with the promise of “If you elect us, we’ll do it right THIS time?”
That sounds a lot like “They’ll greet us with flowers” to me.
Absolutely, I remember being her, oh, 3 incarnations ago.
Just kidding. I don’t actually remember :D
Heck, it should be mailed to ALL Democrats,even those who’ve indicated they’ll vote “yes.”
They CAN change their minds, after all. [Like upon getting some FACTS.]
You can bet there are a lot of legislative analysts on Congressional staffs that haven’t done this type of work for their boss. Probably just relied on those fact-filled [/snark] faxes, e-mails and press releases from the DNC & DCCC.
so, with a Democratic legislation in both houses education is safe, right? Bravo Dems!
I’m just trying to make a limited point here. If the pill of this bill is a bitter one for some to swallow I’m just offering a little sugar coating: there’s no way there’s a political down side to this for Democrats.
Republicans, the assholes, are always blustering and threatening. I’m not worrying about whether “they’ll” (voters?) greet this bill with flowers or not. All I know that I won’t greet them with rocks for this, and I’m pretty typical. I hardly taken as a given that this is “push(ing) a bill on the public they don’t want”; that’s just Republican claptrap.
Those were the good old days.
“A family of four making $66,370 will be forced to pay $5,243 ”
anyone know what they might pay currently? thanks…
Uphill — both ways!
I hope someone is mailing this to Krugman, Rachel, Olbermann, O’Donnell, Reich, Arianna, Digby and all the others who have come to support this pieced of shit.
In response to Knoxville @ 31:
and what makes these Democrats think PHaRMA and the health insurance cretins will “dance with the ones that brung ‘em”? Did Rahm get something written in blood that these guys will refrain from opposing Democrats until some date in the far future?
“SO MUCH if overlooks” – ok you pointed out 2 things:
1. the family of 4 – In Jane’s example, she mentions ‘forced to pay’. I’m not sure what that means, but currently, the average family is contributing $3,300/year according to this:
http://facts.kff.org/chart.aspx?ch=706
2. nearly every stock out there has fared far better than 28% increase..
Now that’s just silly. Jane is talking about from Oct 30 2009, (about 5mos) from there, the dow is up 10%. sheesh…
http://money.cnn.com/data/markets/dow/
(click the 6mo pulldown)
cigna, for example up 18% in that time
http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=CI
“there’s no way there’s a political down side to this for Democrats.”
Martha Coakley? Is that you? You really should get out of politics. Have you decided to take that lobbying position yet?
The bill hadn’t passed when she lost. And people have plenty of other reasons to not vote for Democrats (Wall Street bailouts and joblessness), so you may be confusing cause and correlation here.
But what do you get for that $450 per month? Will it provide anything near the benefits of even the $800 per month policy?
And, of course, what about the people who are not now paying for any insurance — how do they survive an added $450 per month hit to their pocketbooks?
I’m sorry, I’m about all “hoped” out.
Look at it this way: when this bill passes are you going to fight to “repeal” it?
But she did come out in favor of the bill during the campaign.
We need to start calling ourselves something other than progressive because progressives in the past didn’t stand for what I believe in. Just for the record I’d prefer to be called radical, as in revolutionary socialist. The Democrats are pathetic, every last one of them, as is the only democratic socialist in congress.
I won’t have to. The republican majorities in both houses will guarantee that happens.
You must not be very informed?
You miss the part where Obama sold out the Public Option, Drug Importation, etc to the for Profit Hospital Industry.
Guess what Obama and the Phoney Dems done after they sold out the Progressive Base of the Dem Party, they acted like they were for the Public Option for months, knowing the entire time they had killed Public Option in June or July of 2009.
Please explain to everyone here how FAITH BASE COST CONTROLS FOR HEALTH INSURANCE works? we all want to know. “When pray hard Insurance rates will go down? WOW
You also did not discuss how the Dems in congress play the game who is going to be boogey man for the week. Glenn Greenwald and Jane open our eyes to this
Why is Howard Dean calling this Bill the Mitt Romney Health Care Plan? WOW Obama and the sorry Dems in congress are telling all of us they are really republicans?
Howard Dean also calls the Obama HCR scam Insurance Reform, ie the Insurance Bailout Bill.
Lucky the games are over!
All this said, DEMS better learn how to pass Democratic Bills, or we are going to have to find some real Dems.
Gee, why would I want to repeal a bill that sets such fascist precedent as mandating all its citizens buy products from for profit, anti-trust exempt, corporations?
And why would I want to repeal a bill that effectively kills off all future chances of real reform (like single payer) as it will empower the insurance cartel even more with billions and billions of new money to influence legislation with?
yeah, Sanders is a great disappointment.
Are you talking to me? I’m not in favor of this bill! I’m just responding to another poster.. ;)
In response to OFG @302
Usually, we don’t ask those questions until after you’re fully under. You are getting verrry sleeepy. Concentrate on the Swinging Presidential Seal. Relax. Here have some Kool-Aid.
They have cemented a for profit system for generations to come, or at least until the American people find their balls to make demands instead of pretty please petitions, and up front donations to allegedly help buttress their non existent principles and morality.
I’m interested in seeing what kind of lessons Jane will draw from this fiasco, and what tactical adjustments she’ll propose.
Maybe you’ll start by fighting to remove the anti-trust exemption, for example, as opposed to revoking the part that doesn’t allow insurer’s to deny coverage for preexisting conditions.
Maybe we should just fight to remove it BEFORE we give it all away.
Good idea. remove the mandate and the anti-trust exemption, and I’m on board. I’ll even contribute my money, vote, and efforts to help the Democrats.
Let me know when the bill looks like this so I can be sure and thank those wonderful Democrats.
I going to respond to your approval of the mandate. A mandate that requires people to buy from private for profit corporations is unethical, even if it does spread the risk and, in theory, lower costs. A government mandate requires that the government offer the product as sole supplier, as a public option available to all, or at the very least a highly regulated not for profit private entity. Why? Because a government mandate means that that service (or product) is now a member of the commons. One of the purposes of government is to protect the commons and ensure accessibility.
Fight. That’s a funny word.
“Lookout! I’m gonna getcha with my big, scary …uh, my menacing pointed…uh, my overbearing, snarling, chest-puffing …. uh, ability to roll-over.”
“Excuse me PhRMA, would you like some other compromise to go with the one we gave you last week?”
“squeek, squeek.”
Wouldn’t expect anything less, thanks – we’re with you now & we’ll be with you in NV to unseat that Senate guy, what’s his name. ps. My forites are #9 & #15!
Obama and the Democrats have called this landmark legislation similar to Social Security or Medicare. Wow, this is a very bad dream. Talk about our government failing us! Americans should be outraged!
Jane,
Per #6: I’ve now read THREE other reconciliation bill summaries that state the penalty is 2.5% of income by 2016 (not 2.0%).
Great job.
I have a suspicion that Markos was offered a potential Senate/House seat in the future for his compliance. I hear there will be a number of openings coming up.
Jane, It’s 5:17, fri. aft. in Wash. DC. Which Sunday shows have you been asked to appear on? Any reasoned person would think they’d be begging to hear you insight on this. Who else has worked harder to inform people of what the real story is?
I think the Republicans are fine with this bill. What gets them pissed of is they were not sophisticated enough, and have painted themselves into a corner, to thinkf of it or implement it. ObamaRahma and the Dems have nailed down a powerful revenue stream to money from the beneficiaries of this bill (it ain’t us).
Was there any doubt that this would generate spin on a level unimagined? How else could they get any support for a corporate give away?
Been thinking the same thing. In the meantime.
In the meantime, a bizarre two-fer on FDL: Red staters dropping by to yell at us evil libruls (they obviously don’t read/care before posting), and actualy liberals stopping by to sneer and gloat about their big victory on health care reform. The more nasty the latter group are, the more you know they don’t really believe in their talking points. Gonna be an ugly summer.
This has more spin than Pelosi’s internal Stepford gyroscope.
Given the endless intellectual curiosity and political sophistication of the American public, I’d give those inevitable “Uncle Sam with a gun to the head of Joe Taxpayer to get that ‘mandate money’ ” ads a chance to work before relying on the “polling.”
Wild (but not so crazy?) idea: All of these so-called U.S. citizen “terrorists”…are “plants.” I mean, isn’t it “coincidental”…that we have this rash of “inside” terrorists popping up all over the place recently, and now…ta da. A proposed bill that gives the gov’t. the right to arrest any U.S. citizen without formal charge and put her/him under military custody for suspected “terrorism.”
A perfect strategy: Get the masses all whipped up in a frenzy of fear once again, then come in to act as “benevolent protector” by passing outrageous legislation like this under the guise of “defeating the terrorists.”
BTW: Did you know the gov’t. labels some social justice/animal rights groups as “terrorist”?
you are right — I forgot.
Thanks!
Brilliant.
1. I don’t think many people believe that the plan is even being sold as universal. It is being sold as a big step toward universality.
2. All health insurance company stock plummeted in early 2008 when it became obvious that Democrats would have majorities in both houses, and that a Democrat who promised to reform health care would be president. At that time, single-payer was a legitimate possiblity which affected health insurers stocks. The recent improvement in those stocks reveals that reform will not be as bad for insurers as it was expected to be. However, even with their recent gains, health insurers have been outperformed by both the Dow and the S&P in this period. The stocks have lost value relatively and absolutely due to the likely passage of this bill.
3. I don’t know about the long term accuracy of the official position on this. I do know that this so-called “truth” is garbage. Nobody expects premiums to be significantly changed by 2016. None of the mechanisms to control costs will have made much headway by then.
I note that left out of this truth is that those purchasing individual and small group policies will benefit from not being robbed by their insurance company as a matter of course.
4. That means health care costs would be between $5243 and $11,125 per year for this family of four. Average health care costs for a family of four are about $16,000 per year now, and will go up fast. Instead of going bankrupt due to illness, this family of four would still have $2425 per year to spend at their own discretion in the worst of times, and close to $8000 per year in the best of times.
If they choose to not buy insurance, they will pay $3000 per year in penalties (less any amount for provable economic hardships, like being stuck with a bad mortgage). If a member of the family develops a condition that is expensive to treat, they can opt in and pay that $11,125 per year to receive unlimited amounts of health care.
With the status quo, other families, many less well off, subsidize this family which chooses to not buy insurance. Other people maintain hospitals which will not turn this family away in an emergency. If you decide that people who can afford insurance can opt out freely, then you must accept that when they get sick and can’t afford health care, they die. For the most part, we are not willing to accept this.
However, this business with the family of four is gnonsense. Only an insignificantly small percentage of families will see this as bad. For most in the situation described, it will be a godsend. This is about families of one. Single people in good health with few assets and high pay are the ones who object to the mandate. They currently get free catastrophic insurance through bankruptcy laws. They like that other people have to foot the bill if they get sick.
5. Good thing “similar” does not mean “identical”
6. Yes. Is there a point in there? I would greatly prefer single payer, but you’ll have to pay for that too. I’m sure a free universal healthcare would be very popular.
7. I have an excellent family coverage policy from Kaiser. It meets the needs of myself, my wife, and our 2 disabled children with very little out of pocket expense. I live in an area with a high cost of living, and above average insurance costs. I calculated the full premium cost due to expected health care inflation out to 2024, and the excise tax cutoff with expected base inflation. The value of my policy was never taxable. With the delayed onset for union plans, unions will be able to negotiate new contracts with higher pay and less (but still very good) benefits before they ever pay tax.
8. The only proof you need is that your employer didn’t cut your benefits today. If he can cut your benefits without increasing your pay, he will do it regardless of whether health care reform passes or not.
9. I’ve never heard that myth. I’ve heard that it employs every cost saving measure that can get through congress. That isn’t much, but it has the advantage of being possible.
Medicare buy-in and a public option are good ideas. It’s a shame so many congressmen don’t want them.
Drug reimportation is a silly idea. Drug companies will raise prices so that the poorest 85% of the world never see anything but generic drugs.
The answer to high drug costs is comprehensive intellectual property reform. You will get more drug-cost savings from that than reimportation.
Having medicare bargain collectively on behalf of seniors is a great idea. It’s how that program should have been implemented from the start. The problem is that this bill will barely squeak by with no opposition from PHARMA. No bill would pass without dividing the special interests. This item is one of the easiest to change in ensuing legislation. It is one of the few issues which could be disentangled from the others.
The shorter path to generics is also a great idea. It too does not need to be in this bill. It can be done solo, though it makes more sense to roll it in with other intellectual property reform.
10. If Walmart does not offer their employees health insurance, they will pay 8% of their payroll to the federal government. Considering that Walmart is already invested in providing cheap basic health care services to the general public for profit, my guess is that they will provide employees basic services in house, and self-insure for big-ticket items for less than that 8%. Yes, their underpaid employees will receive subsidies. And if we passed single payer, Walmarts underpaid employees would receive that too, while the company did not pay it’s share. Walmart’s treatment of its employees is a separate matter.
11. So the reform package provides more people better care for only a slightly higher price. That is bending the cost curve. While it is only marginally better than the status quo, the operative word is “better”.
12. So only about 300,000 people with significant health problems will be able to buy insurance at rates a healthy person would. That’s 300,000 more than the status quo.
If the money will run out, new money can be budgeted.
13. Individual insurance exchanges will include nationally available plans. These plans will be overseen by the part of the Office of Personnel Management which oversees the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program. That means these plans will have the most aggressive and powerful oversight of any insurance plans in the country.
On the other hand, there will still be other individual plans available. I’m sure that many people will be ripped off by these plans before the general public wise up and restrict their purchases to the nationally available exchanges.
14. I don’t really know anything about this. For individuals purchasing from national exchange plans, I would hope that OPM sets the external review process, but I don’t know for sure.
15. The anti-trust protection is direct for individuals, and indirect for groups. Individuals can purchase nationally available plans. Employer groups faced with huge rate hikes can eliminate the plan, and raise pay. Then the workers can purchase on the national exchanges. Insurerers would still be able to gouge employers and their workers for the amount of the employer fee for not providing insurance, and the amount of the tax break that the employer would lose. That’s not good, but it isn’t worth killing the bill over.
16. The “myth” is true. People reading too much into it will be disappointed. I suggest not reading too much into it.
17. It might be possible to get the Sander’s amendment expanded to cover labor (treasury might be needed too). If 59 senators voted for Sander’s amendment, 50 might vote for an expanded version as a provision of reconciliation. The cost mandate would have to be improved from “as cheap” to “at least 5% cheaper” to qualify for reconciliation, but that should be easy with single payer. Admittedly, it’s a long shot, but even if it doesn’t happen, I don’t think it should be a deal breaker.
18. I agree that this is oversold. It will be much better than the status quo, though.
I think the bill is a clear improvement over the status quo. I think that it is a step, though small, in the right direction. Failure to pass the bill will make future efforts at reform less productive.
Do I dare venture into the spiritual here?
It’s not just our government that’s collapsing; it’s our economic system, our “religious” system, our media system, our educational system…the list goes on and on.
Part of a huge planetary “purge” that needs to happen.
The great news (seriously): If those who are “waking up” stand firmly in their truths (no budging when it gets to this point – I’m learning that one) while remaining centered in their hearts (supremely important – which is why, even when I challenge someone, I try not to berate, belittle, or do the “slice and dice” thing even though it can be tempting, I know)…there truly IS an opportunity to co-create something brand new.
Bottom line: We’re cleaning out all the rotting stuff that’s held us back as a species for eons of time, and to do so, it MUST rise to the surface.
That it’s happening all at once…for some of us, more than expected. Truly, a grand opportunity if we approach with clarity, civility, and a clear vision of…something better.
Regards.
I just heard some of Obama’s speech on HCR at George Mason University on CSPAN radio. I’m feeling very sick now. To hear the lies and outright manipulation is astounding and very sad. It reminded me of what Bush did leading up to the invasion of Iraq although in a way more cycnical, immoral, and deceitful.
“2. All health insurance company stock plummeted in early 2008 when it became obvious that Democrats would have majorities in both houses, and that a Democrat who promised to reform health care would be president. At that time, single-payer was a legitimate possiblity which affected health insurers stocks. The recent improvement in those stocks reveals that reform will not be as bad for insurers as it was expected to be. However, even with their recent gains, health insurers have been outperformed by both the Dow and the S&P in this period. The stocks have lost value relatively and absolutely due to the likely passage of this bill.”
I have posted several times here that this is completely wrong! All you have to is go look at some quotes! If you’re so wrong about this, I don’t know what to think about the rest of your post – I’ll leave that for others…
Bravo.
Addition: Examine…
1. Actual outcomes of “traditional” treatments;
2. Outcomes of being hospitalized (did you know anywhere from 98,000 to 200,000 people DIE each year due to medical errors made in hospitals? Google it; plenty of references to be found and personally, I think this stat puts the “45,000 people die each year from lack of insurance thing” in perspective);
3. Alternative treatments that are low cost/high benefit;
4. How lifestyle choices affect personal health, and what simple changes people can make to improve health and avoid a trip to the doctor;
5. The role of toxins in the environment and how they directly affect human health…
Lots of other stuff like this, too. Love your idea: Let’s examine THE WHOLE THING. Look at it from a BIG PICTURE PERSPECTIVE. Otherwise…band-aids.
The MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media) will sell the WH story they way they sold BushCo’s invasion of Iraq and the happy, happy talk about Wall Street and how everyone could make a killing in real estate. Forget facts, just go with the truthiness.
Speaking of the crap HCR bill..I just got an e mail soliciting my vote from Jerry Brown.. and basically here’s what I e mailed back:
Jerry I am interested in one issue in this campaign.. and that is single payer health care. Whomever promises NOT to veto single payer legislation in the state gets my vote. Kaput, finished. Schwarzeneggar vetoed in the past.. and I am disgusted. Same with the charade of HCR on Capitol Hill. We are all tired of hopey changey politicians who could care less about WE the People and talk out of all sides of their mouth. Right now there is a backlash against Dems who are just plain corporatists.. sadly, your Republican rival may eat up your votes based on the DEMS betrayal and HCR sellout. It might be a vote of protest. So if you can cut through the riff raff and promise to support single payer without equivocating you have my vote. Otherwise, forget it.
Don’t you mean, “…for 300% of what a healthy person would?” Or has that provision of the bill been changed?
One question: Do you think at all about what you’re writing?
Dear Jane,
I missed your appearance today with John King. I was wondering how I could still watch it or if you will be able to put it up here?
If anyone knows how or where I can see Jane from today on CNN please let me know here. Thanks.
I’m reluctantly and gradually losing respect for this type of rant the more hysterical and frenzied it gets. I agree with a lot of this and sympathize with most of the rest, but you totally lost me when I got to the BS points mixed in with the facts.
Example: ““Bends the cost curve” is a misleading and trivial claim, as the US would still spend far more for care than other advanced countries.”
This shows either a breathtaking failure to understand of the meaning of the words “bends the cost curve” or a Gooperesque distortion of facts to buttress a weak point. I’m 99% sure of the latter so I won’t bother to belabor it again.
Please, we’re better than this. It’s possible to be critical without distortion, and to press hard left without demonizing good people who disagree over approaches to shared concerns.
You all have to read “Necessary Illusions” written by Noam Chomsky and will find all the answers for your actual questions. This is health problem is just part of the whole.
You caught the sudden appearance of the “new” word today, too?
Far as I know, there’s still only one meaning for “new”, so every poor soul with a sick kid now has to buy a new policy to get coverage, if they can afford it in the first place.
No surprise there. You know it’s always more cash when you open up a new policy, even for healthy people.
Obama’s moral basement plan for the poor and infirmed in America.
excellent suggestion. For anyone not able to buy it or visit a library, the next best thing, an abstract is to be found here:
Necessary Illusions
Thought Control in Democratic Societies
by Noam Chomsky
South End Press, 1989
sample: “The charge that the Democrats represent the special interests has little merit. Rather, they represent other elements of the “national interest,” and participated with few qualms in the right turn of the post-Vietnam era among elite groups, including the dismantling of limited state programs designed to protect the poor and deprived; the transfer of resources to the wealthy; the conversion of the state, even more than before, to a welfare state for the privileged; and the expansion of state power and the protected state sector of the economy through the military system-domestically, a device for compelling the public to subsidize high-technology industry and provide a state-guaranteed market for its waste production. A related element of the right turn was a more “activist” foreign policy to extend U.S. power through subversion, international terrorism, and aggression: the Reagan Doctrine, which the media characterize as the vigorous defense of democracy worldwide, sometimes criticizing the Reaganites for their excesses in this noble cause. In general, the Democratic opposition offered qualified support to these programs of the Reagan administration, which, in fact, were largely an extrapolation of initiatives of the Carter years and, as polls clearly indicate, with few exceptions were strongly opposed by the general population.”
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Chomsky/Necessary_Illusions.html
1) Toward universal what though? Universal slaves to the for profit health insurance corporatoins? Because nothing in this bill gets us closer to universal health care since it doesn’t provide care, it provides health insurance. Lots of people with insurance now can’t afford care.
2. Discount those facts all you want to, and spin them however you like, but what folks won’t misunderstand at all is when we see what happens the day this bill is signed. I’m sure you’ll come back and enlighten us all about how those big jumps really just made up for this or were because of that. Riiiiigght. Free country, believe what you want.
I don’t know the accuracy of those numbers either. But pray tell, do tell us about these cost control measures. Do you mean those magic exchanges that are going to bring the magic of free market competition to health insurance purchasing is this big cost control measure you speak of?? We’ll see how that works out in an industry with a anti-trust exemption, won’t we. What other cost control mechanisms do you speak of?>
4. Not even going touch that load of hog shit.
5. Ooh, snark! I like it. Nice come back. But still doesn’t change the fact that like the Mass. plan, this one doesn’t provide one iota of coverage, it provides health insurance policies. Many, just like in Mass, will be unable to still afford actual care even with those policies. Just like lots of folks on Medicare can’t afford it when they get sick and end up on Medicaid. Snark if you want, but real folks with real lives suffering for real pain will still be unable to afford health care. And any law passed which still allows that to happen is immoral, and says as much IMO about those supporting it.
6. More snark?? Yes there’s a point. This bill does NOT provide health care for the nearly 31 million uninsured. That’s the point, that it doesn’t. The myth is that it will. Try and keep up.
7. I’m glad you’ve got great coverage and get great care. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s a myth to believe if you like your current health care plan that you can keep it, because many, many employers will choose less expensive (thus less generous) health plans to avoid the tax. And those folks will not have been able to keep their plans they liked so well. Unlike what a certain lying SOB has been saying for months now.
Wow. Let me see if I’ve got this straight. Because the employer doesn’t cut your pay today means that he will give you a raise when his health care premiums come down? Riiiiiiiighht. That kind of tortured logic doesn’t even need a response.
That myth is verbatim what President Obama has said repeatedly. There’s probably some youtube video of it. Look it up. And I see you mentioned some good cost cutting ideas that AREN’T in the bill. Still haven’t seen what you’re touting as the big cost cutter that is in the bill. But we agree, all that stuff up there is good, and should’ve been in the bill. See we can agree?
You “suspect” Wal-Mart will provide it? Really? Thanks, good to know. I’ll take that right to the bank. But the point is that Wal-Mart will (and has in the past) basically used taxpayers to subsidize the cost of their employees by keeping them low paid enought to qualify for medicaid and with this new system by I’m sure, not providig it, gladly paying the penalty, and letting the taxpayers once again foot the bill. It wasn’t addressed in this bill, but it should’ve been.
Better? Better than what? Better than real reform? I don’t think so. Better than doing nothing? Maybe, maybe not. Is there some law somewhere that says the issue can’t be taken up again if this bill rightfully dies? Was there a line in the Constitution that prevents the Congress from attempting to pass the same kind reform more than once in a generation?? I must’ve missed that in my copy of it.
Yeah, we’ll see floods of new money budgeted when the Republicans control both houses of Congress. Oh wait, what am I saying? I almost forgot that there’s no real difference between the two any more. Ok, so, yeah, I’m sure we can look for lots and lots of new funds budgeted for this in the future, no matter who controls Congress and the White House.
(that was my snark. was it ok??)
ANd the 300,000 may be better off while how many millions aren’t? And what at price do those 300,000 become better off? Is it worth any price? Any good in the bill means its worth any and all bad as a price? You’re not a professional negotiator, are you?
I’m not sure about this one so will defer to your knowledge here. It sounds like bullshit to me (the part about it being “the most aggressive and powerful oversight of any insurance plans), but you may well be right. Although given the current level of “aggressive and powerful oversight” of the industry I don’t think that’s necessarily saying all that much.
OK, we’ll skip this one then.
The anti-trust exemptions means they’re exempt from all of those anti-trust laws that prevent things like dividing up markets and setting prices. The fact they keep the exemption means that can basically use whatever non-competitive mechanisms they want to set prices and markets. Still, all in all, perhaps you’re right about it being no reason to kill this bill. If it were a good bill, I’d agree. Since it’s a horrible one though, this is just another on the long list of reasons why it should be killed.
It will be interesting to see how many people were reading into this myth come November when the Democrats are going to be scrambling around asking WTF just happened to us.
Hmm, another bad flaw, but gosh darned it this one shouldn’t be a deal breaker either. Again, I’d agree with you IF this bill really were a step toward single payer, or a step toward any real reform, but this bill effetively ends all hope of single payer the day it’s law because the insurance industry will now have billions billions and billioins of new dollars to use to influence future legislation, and legislatures.
Yes, definitely oversold. No. Not better than the status quo though. With the status quo, the issue is still alive and well, and we won’t have set the most fascist precedent in our history by forcing us all to be customers of the for profit insurance industry. You can almost sense the drooling from other industries wanting to get in on that sweet action.
It’s just a horrible, horrible, bill. Even here you’ve spent a whole page arguing that yes, all of this stuff is bad, but it’s not so bad, and it shouldn’t be a deal breaker. Yet not one argument on what’s good. When you have to defend something by saying “it’s not as bad as you think” then let me give you hint, that which you’re defending ain’t worth it.
If you’re interested in defending the Democratic Party, and THAT’S why we should support it, then make that argument. But this is weak tea. Real weak tea.
“rant”, “hysterical”, “frenzied”, accusing Jane & team of “b.s. points” & of “demonizing good people who disagree over approaches to shared concerns”? Is the only tactic you have left to respond to those offering by far the best coverage on HCR?
Forgot one Jane. There isn’t much of an enforcement mechanism for the few regulations insurers face. Also, the Secretary of HHS has wide latitude re penalties. If they operate anything like the OCC and OTS re banking and financial, insurers will be the buddies of the regulator and get away without covering pre-existing conditions ever. State insurance regulators are going to have their hands full, but they’ll need to pass the laws to do what we’ll need them to do. Sometimes I think they pushed this bill as a campaign issue for state races.
What is this, April’s Fool Day?
Which is it, Is the Bill “a clear improvement” or “a step, though small, in the right direction”?
Why do you believe “Failure to pass the bill will make future efforts at reform less productive”?
OFG, I agree generally with what you’re saying, and even with the idea that passing this bill detracts from the urgency of hcr in that provides an excuse for people to wait and see how the bill will work. However, I also think the tendency to postpone further action for many years can be overcome if we all build the Medicare for All movement. A movement for enhanced Medicare for All as a civil right can overcome any tendencies toward inaction arising out the present travesty; but to make this happen we’ve got to get really serious about building such a movement.
Is the only tactic you have left to respond to those offering by far the best coverage on HCR?
Ah, I see you have no response at all to my actual point: the clear statements of BS in with the facts. You trigger off words, but somehow can’t extract the actual meaning of a statement and realize facts matter.
Sad. Maybe I was wrong, not all of us are “better than that.”
Please point to the “ranting” in the fact sheet.
It’s remarkable how many of the concern trolls here post nothing but whiny crybaby attempts to “defend” Jane from other FDL regulars. No one cares about your juvenile fears that I am somehow hurting or “attacking” her every move by disagreeing at times, and she doesn’t need your knee-jerk hero worship masquerading as “defense”. Adults do that at times, we disagree and discuss it, and you add nothing to our discussion by knee-jerk childish contentless criticism without addressing the issue raised.
And yes, I called you “whiny”, “crybaby”, “childish”, and “juvenile”, now re-read the last paragraph and see if you can extract the MEANING of the sentences.
The ranting is in the post. You know, above the fact sheet.
When this passes, it will become clear that Congress is no longer the sovereign of this nation. Rather, the corporations dictating the laws will be.
If it’s not the corporations that are dictating all the ugly turns this bill took, then who do you believe is responsible?
(Hint: Please don’t say the Republicans. They didn’t vote for or support ANY part of this bill)
We need whole strategy revisions and only then tactical adjustments.
Well, it is indeed the AHIP plan. That’s not ranting, it’s a fact.
If it’s not the corporations that are dictating all the ugly turns this bill took, then who do you believe is responsible?
Passing this bill doesn’t suddenly, magically make that the case.
Which is what that statement claims, which is what makes it a rant.
When this passes, it will become clear that Congress is no longer the sovereign of this nation. Rather, the corporations dictating the laws will be.
Of course it’s true corporations own our government to a large degree today, has been my whole life, and still will be after this sort-of-HCR bill passes and doesn’t really fix everything. But it fixes some things, and it’s not the end of the fight.
Gooper level distortions don’t help our progressive cause.
The one thing we’ve never had before in your life or anyone else’s, is a mandate forcing us to be customers of for private companies. That is a dangerous and fascist precedent that sounds like the corporations are becoming even more entrenched, which was the point.
And if you want to be taken seriously, you can stop with the childish gooper remarks. If you’re just a Democratic supporter that supports whatever the Democrats say to support, then you’re at the wrong site.
And, btw, what are the things it fixes?
Because if you’re just going to talk about pre-existing conditions and not dropping us when we’re sick, then those have already been shown to to have the support to pass by themselves. Please tell me what it fixes that requires THIS bill be passed. Also, you may want to check out loopholes on those “new and tougher” regulations the media keeps telling you about. Just sayin.
Accusing this site, which has done more to present detailed coverage of an HCR Bill that was NEVER sold on merit, of B.S. is disengenuous at best. I understand identifying, isolating and attacking the “enemy” was the “tactic” of Obama & team on this from the start. But, it would be foolish to interpret the coming win as anything more than an assurance of increased short-term profits for an industry that contributes appallingly little to the society that provides it an antitrust exemption to operate.
Come Monday I’m sure the same Dems lauding this Bill will be doing their darndest to change the topic of conversation as quickly as possible. It won’t work, this was an opportunity for our country that was way too important to squander.
agree, yet am not convinced that Jane is ready for a major revision of her world view.
Of course “it fixes some things”. How could it not? The question you refuse to acknowledge is, does it fix enough problems to warrant the cost? If it did, why would Legislators running for reelection in only 6 months delay so much of the Bill’s implementation for so many years?
Bravo.
Every word you said is exactly my sentiments.
Who gives a shit what any Dem politician says. If the crap they’re pushing is going to hurt the American people, I’m not supporting it.
I don’t care if the GOP attacks Dems. Or people like that weasel Markos blames Democratic failures on libs. I don’t give a damn. This type of thinking is a sickness that both parties encourage to keep the focus on them and not the issues. I hate it.
I for one will never vote Dem again, EVER. Third party or stay home.
I refuse to spend one second of my time in support of these Fascists.
Thanks for this. Too many people have lined up on one side or the other based on pre-existing political affiliations. What killed health care reform in 1993 were the back room deals that included mandates. It looked like a sell-out to the health insurance companies. Which is exactly what this current legislation looks like. Rather than force us all to subsidize insurers Congress should simply outlaw the abusive practices of the industry and massively fund the building of an alternative government or private nonprofit health care infrastructure for this country.
Godsakes! You still thinking of supporting the Democratic Pary with better Dems again? Still?
Wow, no wonder nothing gets better in this country.
No it is not the AHIP plan. Jane did not say it was.
One interesting note, Jane’s argument in point four is lifted almost verbatim from AHIP’s complaints about the bill. I certainly don’t think Jane is in the Pocket of AHIP just because some of her argument is identical to theirs. It’s just as ridiculous to think Obama is in their pocket.
OldFatGuy @339
You didn’t make a single argument against anything I wrote. You just blathered.
Why is it hard to understand that the bill can be a clear improvement and a small step?
If healthcare reform fails to pass, there will not be an attempt to reform it again anytime soon. At such a point in the future that reform is again considered, that future reform may not do as much as this bill. People will have an example that ambitious reform only leads to failure.
If the bill passes, it stands as an example that healthcare reform can pass. There is no doubt that the current bill is flawed, and will have to be reformed again soon, but then it will be the new starting point.
If you believe that people will only have the political will to support good reform when things become worse, you’re fooling yourself. At best, you’ll get incremental reform like today, just in more dire circumstances. At worst, you’ll get a narrow majority from the wealthier half of the country who decide that the federal government should get out of healthcare altogether.
The difficulty with doing what should be done is that most people, and more pointedly, most congressmen, don’t want it done.
The choice then becomes one of doing the best that our system allows, letting people go to hell, or seizing power to do good by force. I like the first choice.
You can not possibly have a law requiring insurers to ignore pre-existing conditions without a mandate. No one will buy any insurance covering expensive procedures until they actually need them. If you want to buy insurance that covers chemotherapy, it will cost the same as chemotherapy because the only people who buy it will be getting chemotherapy.
I admit that it is stupid to have for-profit insurance companies supplying this service, but that is the only way it is politically possible. Too many people like their insurance because of the illogical tax break involved in employer provided health care. Until that support is eroded, single-payer will not have the support necessary to become law. I realize that many polls show single payer as having 50%+ popularity, sadly that is not enough. Special interests can target the people in areas of borderline support, and drive down that popularity. The representitives of such districts know this, and will not support single payer until it is well above 50% popularity in their districts.
The solutions to current healthcare problems pose difficult political dilemmas.
Providing the means for people to purchase health care drives up demand for healthcare, which raises prices.
More people being insured increases the amount of health care services consumed. More demand for healthcare means highr prices, which also push up insurance prices.
Reducing the fraudulent practices insurers use to steal money from those on the individual markets reduces the ability of insurers to capture market share in the group market by offering lower rates. That means rates go up.
These are all good things, and all of them will make Democrats lose votes when they kick in. Democrats are already facing the difficulties of a midterm while their party holds the presidency, and a brutal economy not of their making. Adding the initial bad effects of reform – which hit middle of the road voters hardest – is not politically smart.
Hey! Who cares if I am bleeding from every orifice? Who cares about these here 18 myths? Who cares that the REAL problem is that the rich pigs rule the world?
The man gives a helluva speech!
So, let us drink beer, smoke pot, stare in awe and envy at pop culture, and mate-up another generation of stupid, consumer slaves!
This world makes me puke. I admire that yer able to suppress your gag reflex, Jane—I cannot.
I’m sorry, do you know something you’re not sharing. “If healthcare reform fails to pass, there will not be an attempt to reform it again anytime soon.”
“The solutions to current healthcare problems pose difficult political dilemmas.” Really? All political decisions are difficult when there’s NO plausible explanation for throwing money and power to the very corporations who’ve abused the people who elect the legislators. Do you believe Obama & team’s management of our country wasn’t the determining factor in Coakley’s loss?
The only plausable reason to devote so much energy to pushing for HCR reform in the midst of the most severe recession in 80 years is to reduce HCR costs AND improve HCR quality FOR THE MAJORITY OF FAMILIES IN AMERICA.
The ONLY thing difficult in doing this is that it wouldn’t serve corporate interests.
The dems aren’t worried about it. They think eight months is plenty of time to convince everyone this shit sandwich is really a grilled cheese on rye.
Whatever.
Hope you enjoy November!!!
I can guarantee at least 20-30 life long Democrats that aren’t going to vote Democrat this time if they pass this, and another dozen or so that say the same thing. (I can’t guarantee them cause I don’t know them as well as the others). Every voting member of my family has expressed the same thing. So I imagine it’s not restricted to just us and this area. The Democrats are in for some real eye opening fun in NOvember if they pass this shit. And deservedly so.
Yet they’re about to pass this one that has less than 40% support…
Don’t you hate when facts get in the way of an argument?
Bravo, Jane!
Does anyone know anyone in the WH who can get Barack Obama, or better yet, Michelle Obama, this analysis? (I’m sure Barack is not innocently ignorant but he’s also probably been somewhat shielded from the full truth on this bill, esp the way it’s set up here in terms of “myth” and “truth”). We only effectively have tomorrow and maybe it’s too late but I wish Michelle could get it before the vote and at least have the truth in her hands from a credible source. Certainly Michelle is familiar with Jane’s appearances on TV and probably respects her intelligence, being a well educated and intelligent woman herself. Who knows what Michelle could do with it but something, perhaps influence her husband to look again at this travesty which will destroy his legacy and, of course, the middle and working class. This clear outline above is perfect to set the record straight for Michelle. Maybe Jane could simply call her on the phone and ask her to be alert to receive this, woman to woman, in good faith.
Reminds me of the back-channel negotiations between JFK and his Cold War opponents which led to the nuclear test ban treaty. We need this kind of boldness if there’s time, between Jane Hamsher (representing the true progressive wing) and the president. Obama doesn’t have to sign the HCR bill immediately. He can say, “Upon due reflection and with valuable input and insights since the bill became final, I have changed my mind on several key issues and will be sending the bill back to Congress with my recommendations for improvement.”
No, I don’t. I just seem to have a grasp for the manifestly obvious which is lacking here.
There is no way anything close to a majority will be found for a bill that does anything. Republicans don’t want anything done, and the extreme wings of the Democratic party will betray the middle 90% at the drop of a hat.
So please go ahead and explain why health care reform will come up again for debate in congress in less than 10 years.
You don’t make any sense. I was responding to a question as to why some aspects of the bill don’t kick in before the election.
Long-term, it’s mathematically impossible to finance full healthcare for even just most through the profit and nonprofit health insurance models. Nonprofit does not make it mathematically possible – profit has nothing to do with long-term financing viability. The reason for this is ultimately this fact: These models are financing systems severely regressively financed with respect to income.
Subsidizing such a system with government vouchers would not avoid long-term disaster. The further we go down the income scale, the more we see people screwed by voucher systems.
Long-term, it’s mathematically possible to finance full healthcare for all only through a system progressively financed with respect to income (including all sources of system financing) – like government single-payer.
(I have a degree in mathematics, so if someone wants to get technical to argue against the below, then please do so – bring it on.)
INFORMAL PROOF:
IMPORTANT PRELIMINARY NOTE: All insurance reforms will ultimately only slow growth of premiums and/or deductibles/copays, still growing faster than general inflation.
First note that health care via health insurance is financed extremely regressively with respect to income: (A) For full coverage with given deductibles and copays, everyone regardless of income pays the same in premiums. (B) This full coverage and associated full healthcare is for only those who can pay all three.
Analogy:
Imagine trying to finance the US government this way, where all pay the same dollar amount in tax and only those who pay get services. To be affordable for even a minimum-wage worker, let this tax be roughly $1,000/yr, somewhat under 10% of take-home pay. For easy computing, assume roughly 200 million paying this tax. Result: 200-billion/yr. This finances less than 10% of the US government.
(1) It is impossible for this system to provide full services to most, where people get services only if they pay. (2) It is impossible to avoid the fully served population fraction becoming ever-smaller because the severely regressive financing does its part in causing tax and/or additional point-of-service payment inflation to be significantly higher than general inflation to maintain whatever full services exist.
This fits perfectly what happens:
(1) The private health insurance system does not provide full private insurance coverage and full healthcare to most – not far above only 1/3 of roughly 300 million are fully privately insured. Roughly 1/3 have government-financed healthcare and not far below 1/3 are either uninsured or privately underinsured. (2) The fully privately covered population fraction is becoming ever-smaller because the severely regressive financing is doing its part in causing premium and/or deductible/copay inflation to be significantly higher than general inflation to maintain whatever full coverage exists.
Subsidizing via vouchers? Vouchers will save the day?
By (2) above, the unavoidable significantly-higher-than-general-inflation inflation would eventually cause unbearable pressure on the government treasury funding the vouchers:
Fact: The Massachusetts voucher system is already starting to show signs of cracking because of this inflation.
Fact: In a regressive financing system as severely regressive as private health insurance premiums such that every payer regardless of income pays exactly the same dollar amount into the system, if the underlying cost of the service is growing faster than general inflation and faster than the typical worker’s income, then the premiums will also grow faster than typical worker’s income.
Fact: Not only that, we have this all important point: In such a system – the further we move down the income scale of those paying into the system, the higher the premium inflation as a percentage of payer income. This is ultimately the main reason why the further we go down the income scale, the more we see people screwed by voucher systems.
Here’s an example of this last and all-important point:
Suppose single person A makes $20,000/yr and single person B makes $100,000/yr. Suppose premiums increase in one year 25% from $4,000/yr to $5,000/yr. Look at what happens as a percentage of A’s income: Premiums went from 20% of income to 25% of income. Look at what happens as a percentage of B’s income: Premiums went from 4% of income to 5% of income. Even though both went up by the same ratio, this inflation is not experienced the same. Person A has 5% of income eaten up by this inflation in one year, while B had only 1% of income eaten up by premium inflation in one year.
Note that long-term trends are such that, assuming premium inflation higher than payer income, eventually the premiums will become even larger than A’s income and then much later, even larger B’s income. This means that eventually, if A and B by law need to pay no more than some maximum percentage of income, vouchers would have to become so large that they would actually become bigger than A’s income and then much later bigger than B’s income.
Question: Do you know of a voucher system such that the vouchers would be allowed to become so large that they would actually become bigger than the payer’s income?
This clearly implies that the further down one is on the income distribution, the quicker and more completely one is totally screwed before those in governmental power realize how much of a disaster such a system is.
The only way out of this is to have a financing system such that A and B pay into the system in a progressive way with respect to income and let the system have other sources of financing as well, such as sources from that part of GDP that does not see the light of day in terms of income – which by the way is most of GDP. And the only way to do all that is through a government financing system – like single payer.
It polled much better than 50% before the full scale media assault. That was, after all, my point. That high popularity is necessary early, because it will drop once the smear campaign begins. I think that most congressmen were not expecting so many on the left to be to be so easily gulled by right wing propaganda. They’ll know better from now on, that the far left will do the far right’s bidding.
The vast majority of the bill still polls way over 50%. The mandates and the excise taxes are all that do not. People like health care reform. People don’t want to pay for it.
Dissenta, I hold Obama completely responsible for the HCR Bill we face while you still make excuses for him. I wished you were right, but his actions don’t warrant your trust.
Have you read Jane’s last fri. nite post? Do you believe Pelosi can offer to insert deals like this at this time without Obama knowing about it? Wouldn’t you get some satisfaction if Pelosi had told Stupak she’d meet his latest demand if he included language to forbid the Gov’t. from subsidizing the purchase of Viagra?
I probably won’t enjoy November, but that is because the unemployment level will still be high. Just as in the Massachusett’s special election, health care reform will not play a big part. Brown avoided the topic in the election. The only real use he made of it was to blame Democrats for speding too much time on it.
I’m not concerned with Democratic voters staying home because of HCR. Most of those who say that they’ll do this have shown that they are easily manipulated, so many will be talked into voting Democratic despite what they say. In addition, they are disproportionately unlikely to vote regardless of the HCR issue. Well over 90% of Dem voters from 2008 support the bill. Some percentage of that last 10% will support the party anyway, despite disapproving of health care.
I look forward to succeeding elections, though. When Republicans get accused of trying to undo health care reform, they will suffer.
That’s easy. Legislators’ first desire is to get reelected. They’ll demand leadership allow enough significant HCR changes be voted on piecemeal THIS SESSION via reconcilliation to insure their reelection. Maybe the first mini-Bill would be Dorgan (after Parlimantarian agreement that it fits into reconcilliation. By itself, how many Dems would have the nerve to vote against it?
The problem with Obama’s final Bill is voters KNOW it’s crumby and they’re in no mood for it. We’re in the worst recession in 75 years. The middle 90% Dem. voters you refer to are hurting tremendously AND they’re getting short shrift from this Bill. They pay taxes & have no interest seeing Gov’t. go further into debt providing HC for people who pay no taxes. These same voters don’t believe Gov’t. should mandate purchase of insurance from the very companies who’re responsible for the HC mess we’re in, especially without controls. These voters want lower HC cost and better HC, period. And they know if this Bill delivered on these so much of its implementation wouldn’t be delayed for so long. I know because I’m one of them. This Bill stinks, defeating it will be the beginning of meaningful HCR.
President Obama’s middle class survival kit : buy health insurance stock, play the lottery and don’t dare get sick until 2014.
The pathetic Dems have no one else to blame but themselves — and they can’t say we didn’t warn them. ALL incumbents are going to pay a heavy price for this legislative disaster in 2010/2012.
Massive post, Jane!
Great work, here!
I would be really interested in knowing, before the final vote, what Wendell Potter and Elizabeth Warren would have to say about the myths/realities that have been identified, here.
Sources are below the article.
Thanks Jane for the info. I printed it off and will carry it with me.
Agree and know many myself. Makes you scratch your head and wonder what they are thinking.
More whistling past the graveyard, huh?
See ya in NOvember!!!!
I see you’re already making excuses for the bloodbath they’re going to get, blaming it on the economy. Riiiigghhttt. Because if there’s one thing we know, it’s that the voters are upset about the economy so they’re going to vote in the same party that trashed the economy to begin with.
If you don’t understand that health care, is THE issue, the most defining issue of real Democrats and real progressives, then you’re most certainly not what most of us consider to be real D’s or progressives.
That they are not only screwing up health care, but ALSO ON TOP OF IT, are going to piss off all those folks who worked so hard to ensure the rights of women to have control over their own bodies, speaks to the absolute lack of enthusiasm that a significant portion of what got the Democrats those majorities in the first place will have. And the outright anger over the betrayal of these Democrats may even result in a lot of them not just staying home or skipping voting for national Democrats, but I’m sure a lot will even vote Republican just to spite these Democratic whores.
And if they do, it will be the best deserved complete ass whipping any party has ever deserved in an election.
See you in November. Better make sure you make up plenty of excuses between now and then for the bloodbath. Good luck with that.
Shit on your base at your own peril.
dumb questions I know, I profess ignorance…
who are among the 24 million not covered if this health care bill is passed (for what reasons are they excluded, the demographics, etc.)? how will those 24 million be treated by the IRS?
for those who currently do NOT have any insurance, because their employers do not offer any, or because they are unemployed or self-employed, on what date will they be mandated to purchase Obamacare insurance plans? what is the first year the IRS can impose a 2% penalty on income for failing to purchase health insurance? are health insurance companies going to send 1099s to the IRS to show an individual’s compliance? will health care expenses continue to be deductible on individual income tax forms, with the same formula to qualify for a deduction, if one receives a subsidy?
is there room in the health care bill to allow for communities to organize a non-profit health insurance alternatives (co-op?) to offer to the uninsured public as a means to introduce some reasonable and healthy competition or does the bill guarantee that only “private” insurers are allowed? could a non-profit health insurance co-op be a viable option if one is opposed to rewarding the greedy death-panel private insurance companies, especially if there are restrictions on subsidies which are limited to individuals who apply to for-profit private insurance companies?
I don’t think I would have opposition to mandates were there honest competition, a true alternative to purchase insurance, a choice, to go with a not-for-profit provider.
thank you for your tireless efforts in exposing the myths with the juxtaposition of the actual facts… much appreciated
Yes, it amazing seaglass. I keep asking the question over at HuffPo what would you do if Bush was trying to put this garbage through? Not only a replay of Medicare Part D, but it’s Romneycare. But that’s the funny thing about Obama. Whatever Bush did was bad, because he was dumb? But with Obama it’s all right, because he’s compassionate, he cares about us and — drum roll — he more brighter than the whole lot of us put together.
Here’s what I tell those morons: “Even if all private funding for uncompensated care were recouped from private insurance payments, this would still amount to only 1.7% of private insurance premiums,” page 56. (Covering the Uninsured in 2008: A Detailed Examination of Current Costs and Sources of Payment, and Incremental Costs of Expanding Coverage. J Hadley, J Holahan, T Coughlin, D Miller. Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured, Aug. 2008.)
http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7809.pdf
Also in that report, it says that full-year uninsured people on average received $1,686 in health care, compared with $3,915 for insured people, and paid for a larger proportion of it out of their own pockets, page 15. The Obama plan will force them to buy health insurance, with an average subsidy according to the CBO of $6,000! WHAT A BARGAIN – FOR THE INSURANCE COMPANIES! And your taxes will help pay for that subsidy! Congratulations, [Edited by Moderator. No name calling please], for swallowing the health insurance companies’ propaganda about what a burden the uninsured people are on your precious premium!
I also have that problem using Foxit reader. Do you use Adobe?
Working links exist on this page.
I have not spent much time checking out the documentation. I am bookmarking this page for later; when or if, a real bill is made into law!
Help defeat Bart Stupak in his zeal to kill reform by supporting his primary challenger, Connie Saltonstall.
Visit: http://www.actblue.com/page/defeat-bart-stupak
Bart Stupak stated (in an interview on FOX News) that he does not listen to the nuns because these courage women and nuns are “lower” on the Catholic Churches’ hierarchy.
Between the mortgage, taxes, electric, heating, cell-phone and cable bills, and now the insurance company mandates, what do Poor or even Middle Class Americans have left at the end of the month?
Glad some Dems decided to lobby for the Insurance Companies though. And for free, if not with their donations!
Thank you, Jane and staff for this wonderful fact sheet. I found the link on Glenn Greenwald’s blog where I had asked if anyone had done anything like this. My wish came true.
I’m part of the middle class that will be devastated by this bill. My husband lost his job at the end of 2008. All non-Indian remote employees were laid off. He has been lucky enough to get contract work since but our yearly income was cut in half.
We made the decision not to buy health insurance as we are desperately trying to pay down the credit card debt incurred due to the drastic reduction in our income. We both have pre-existing conditions and it would be too expensive. We planned to get health insurance for our child only.
We are currently hemorrhaging money in interest on our credit card. We’re hanging by a thread on keeping up on our mortgage payments. We’ve cut money everywhere we can. We don’t use heat. We have a wood burning stove and only use enough wood to keep our house at 55 degrees, etc., etc. We absolutely CANNOT add health insurance to our budget. I honestly don’t know how we’ll survive if this bill passes.
Not only is it unaffordable for us, this bill completely creeps me out. I have never felt so threatened by government ever.
You appear to be seriously confused about the Massachusetts special election. Fortunately, there are very clear post-election polling results to set you straight:
1. Coakley got only a little more than half the votes that Obama got in 2008, whereas Brown got about as many votes as McCain got in 2008. Clearly, a huge number of Democrats DID just stay home.
2. Of the Obama voters who stayed home 36% said that health-care reform was very important and 38% said it was somewhat important to the way they vote (17% were ‘not sure’ and only 9% said it was not important), 43% were opposed to the Senate bill with only 34% favoring it (53% of those who opposed the Senate bill said that it did not go far enough with 39% ‘not sure’ – the poll did not ask those who favored the Senate bill whether it went far enough), 86% supported the public option (7% ‘not sure’), and 55% opposed mandates (while only 33% favored them).
3. Of the Obama voters who did not stay home, 18% voted for Brown.
4. Of the Obama voters who voted for Brown, 48% opposed the Senate bill while only 32% favored it (just about the same ratio as with Obama voters who stayed home; 36% of those who opposed the Senate bill said it did not go far enough while only 23% said it went too far – the poll did not ask those who favored the Senate bill whether it went far enough), 82% supported the public option (with only 14% opposed to it), 57% said that Obama was not delivering enough of the change that he had promised, and 59% opposed mandates (while only 30% favored them – again, very similar to the Obama stay-at-homes).
You can find the above poll at http://act.boldprogressives.org/cms/sign/mapollresults/ – it contains non-health-care-specific questions as well which you may find informative (and depressing).
As for me, if no strong public option available to all is passed (not just proposed, not just voted on: passed) prior to November I’ll be voting straight Republican for national offices then and for the future until this situation changes. Since I’ve been voting progressive third party (or leaving national ballot slots blank) since early 2004 there’s really nothing else I can do to demonstrate to Democrats that if they won’t walk the walk, they won’t get elected no matter how unpleasant the alternative may be.
Just so you know.
Two big points still not listed under myths.
1. CBO myth…CBO estimate of HCR costs neglect the $10 billion a year it will cost for IRS to implement the HCR enforcement of the insurance mandate!
IRS will have to hire many people plus more or new IT systems to track everyone in the USA by the month. IRS will garnish from everyone who may not be insured for one month, the penalty owed. Another huge nightmare for the American people. Talk about stress???
2. Most importantly; mental health care in the USA has been thrown under the bus. According to this bill, social workers and marriage counselors will be providing medical care to the mentally ill. That is a social worker with 2 years experience will be ‘counseling’ the mentally ill…in this healthcare reform bill, congress seems to think that marriage counselors are qualified to provide care to the mentally ill who really should have psychotherapy as well as medications prescribed by a MD Psychiatrist! Remember Virginia Tech? Well obviously Congress and the President DO NOT…. the homocidal student was counseled by psychologists all right, MARRIAGE COUNSELORS! As well as campus counselors (social workers?). I am not anti social worker my point is there needs to be a clear understanding: mental illness required trained, licensed, experienced psychologists and psychiatrists… not what lousing insurance companies cover for the mentally ill… remember Dr. Hasan? (in case you have forgotten, Fort Hood ‘psychiatrist’?).
I couldn’t give a rats tail what anyone things… anyone with a brain would see just how God awful this health insurance special interest bill is…
I hope the US Supreme Court throws this bill under the bus so real healthcare reform, free of lobbyists and partisans can begin.
President George Washington: “Right Makes Might”
Me too — this makes no sense: “But perhaps most profoundly, the bill does not mandate that people pay 8% of their annual income to private insurance companies or face a penalty of up to 2% — which the IRS would collect.” Shouldn’t that read that it DOES mandate this.
Help defeat Bart Stupid.
Visit: http://www.actblue.com/page/defeat-bart-stupak
…who is this Scott “Pants on the Ground” Brown that you speak of?
Yea, he would have, on the principal of “getting what we can”. Kucinich did, in the hope for working to fix it to make it closer to Universal Health Care.
Im torn honestly, as I think most of us Commies and Socialists are. Watching these guys on MSNBC smile and pat themselves on the back actually ticks me off.
“…as I think most of us Commies and Socialists are…”
Speak for yourself. I consider myself to be an independent…independent of any and all ‘partisanship’ and ‘isms’. If anyone bothers to read through this ‘obama health insurance giveaway’ it is clear, among others who will score hugely will be LAWYERS and not necessarily the personal injury variety. To begin to understand what is in this rotten sausage, you must have at least The Social Security Code and Regulations and same for Medicaid and Medicare as each of these is amended with intentional and unintentional consequences about which we and Congress are currently clueless.
And Mr Obama ain’t nothing but a phony tool of the power elite, period amen. So call me a bloody racist because I abhor his strident, paternal authoritarianism and he happens to be non-white. Go for it.
I abhor the further enslavement of the American people and it is very, very late in the day. The cunning globalists and multinationals sucked our national wealth, our jobs, our inheritance; our ‘free’ elections’ have contaminated our water bodies, our food supply, our culture…as close to extinction as the polar bears and blue fish tuna. And they could care less.
Can we summon the power to resist at this late hour? It isn’t over yet. Now is OUR TIME!
This Healthcare “reform” Bill is going to be a disaster, plain and simple. It’s not going to rain in costs, nor will it provide improvements in healthcare, nor will it be a path to single payer in afew years. If the recent election of Scott Brown here in the Bay State to the late Senator Ted Kennedy’s seat is any election, this toxic bill will pave the way for another Republican landslide this fall and in 2012. The Democrats will get their asses handed to them, and it’ll serve them right. Equally horrifying and disgusting is the fact that the Obama Administration hijacked abortion rights in order to get that stinker of a healthcare “reform” bill passed.
Does this sound familiar?
“First, employers, with the exception of the smallest companies, would be required either to offer coverage or contribute the financial equivalent for an essential benefit package for their employees. Employees would be permitted to opt out and purchase coverage as they do today. Second, every eligible Californian would be enrolled in a Medi-Cal or Healthy Families program. The state needs to work with the private sector on creating an effective outreach strategy to achieve this goal of full enrollment. Third, all other uninsured Californians would be required to purchase coverage in the individual market on a guaranteed basis, with no one denied coverage based on a pre-existing condition. Those who can’t afford that coverage would pay their fair share and be subsidized for the rest. Fourth, an essential benefits package defined by independent medical professionals would specify the minimum level of coverage, which would include preventive care, physician services, hospital care and prescription drugs. Some health plans today offer products that don’t meet this minimum level of care. Those products would be eliminated, either voluntarily or through regulation.”
http://www.commonwealthclub.org/archive/02/02-12bodaken-speech.html
Bruce Bodaken – December 3, 2002
This article emphasizes that a family making just over 60,000 would have to pay $5000 plus in annual premiums, then in the chart about the impact of the healt care bill, it says families would pay from $15,000 – 20,000 a year in premiums. Why the discrepancy in these figures.
It’s very hard to tell from all the information out there
(1) what families making a modest amount (say $50-60 K a year) pay now in health care premiums and average deductibles(using different scenarios from Medicaid to high-end health palns. What they’ll pay over the next 5 years with no change and what they will pay under Health Care bill.
Craig, Pittsburgh