This only health these people ever intended to care for is the economic health of the sickness industry.

Of course, Democrats are not going to include a public option because it would ruin bipartisanship, we need Olympia Snowe, Ben Nelson, Joe Lieberman, Blanche Lincoln, Dick Durbin would whip against it, the Senate does not have the votes, the Senate has the votes the House does not, it might delay the bill Obama traded it away to the for-profit hospitals in a backroom deal. Instead, I suspect that they will make up the loss by either raising more taxes or cutting much-needed aid to students and community colleges.

Nicely stated.

Spot on post, once again, Jon.

I’m confused. Seriously. On the mains of FDL, the opinions on this insurance scam are similar to my own. On the Seminal, it is being praised as the greatest thing since the Rapture. WTF?? Now if this is what it is like here, no wonder any progressives in Congress can be swayed so damn easy. I realize everyone is entitled to their opinions, but usually a website is similarly grouped people. How can you be against something, and for it at the same site? Talk about weird.

Don’t you get it yet? Obama doesn’t want a public option. A public option is so FDR. Obama has a new vision.

There is, of course, a very easy solution to the House Democrats’ CBO trouble. They could add a public option or Medicare buy-in. The CBO projects that even a very weak and restricted public option would save the government $25 billion.

You know, when you follow that argument to it’s logical conclusion, the Democrats could significantly improve their CBO score by giving everyone access to Medicare. What a waste of time this policy is. Seems to me we are just prolonging the transition to universal Medicare, which is in many ways why the Democrats resist passing public insurance.

Have fun explaining that move Democrats.

I could write the Republicans’ next campaign advertisements on this subject “Happy you’re being forced to pay thousands of dollars for insurance you can’t use? Tell the Democrats.”

They’ve always been the “free market” guys, so this sort of rhetoric should work just fine for them.

The Democrats walked right into this one.

The answer seems to be that they are having trouble putting together a reconciliation bill that the CBO will project as saving a sufficient amount of money.

That’s what happens when Obama and the morally bankrupt Democratic Party leadership ditches good ideas to reform our health care system and sells the American people out to the corporations.

They’re counting on the base crawling back to them on election day like a dog with its tail between its legs after it’s been cuffed. And judging by the talk at TPM that may very well happen.

kinda like battered wife syndrome

TPM folks have very low expectations and lack vision. They’ll settle for manure expecting a pony to come prancing down the road in the future.

If they do, then they deserve all the pro-business, pro-corporate agenda items that pass. And they have no right to bitch about any policy these Democrats put forward. You support ‘em, you own ‘em.

10 years from now when we’re still fighting for real healthcare reform and realize this bill actually did do nothing we’ve got to remember who owns it and not trust them anymore. I’m talking about DKos, etc. etc. No matter what pretty words they say over the next x number of weeks or months or years, folks like that own this corporate bill. And the fact that deaths will continue due to lack of access to health care, and financial ruin will continue due to medical bankruptcies. That’s what’s in store with this bill, and they support this bill, so they support and own all of it.

A reminder that single payer would be even better financially. But that wasn’t even allowed to be discussed. Obama sure loves keeping the for-profit insurance industry fat and happy.

I emailed this to Jane a few minutes ago and she suggested I post it on the blog. So that’s what I’m doing. Please know that I have an open mind and would appreciate responses from folks who are a part of this community. Thanks.

In recent days I have followed the conversation on FDL regarding
health care reform with great interest. By way of background, I like
to keep up with the various left-leaning blogs but have never really
followed FDL closely. I would say, however, that I’ve appreciated
Jane Hamsher’s activism on a number of issues in recent years.

I support passage of the version of health care reform legislation
currently in play. I realize it’s a deeply flawed bill. And I
strongly support a public option. Flaws and omissions
notwithstanding, I will be thrilled if the bill passes. So that’s
where I stand.

Honestly, I’ve been taken aback by the vehemence of FDL’s opposition
to the bill, and by some of the rhetoric that’s been used to attack
the President and Democratic members of Congress. I just don’t get
it. I mean that in the most literal sense. I don’t understand it.
I’m confused.

My father passed away in December of 2009. Over the years his
employer cut back again and again on the benefits it extended to
employees. By the time he died, he had junk insurance for which he
paid 100 percent of the premium. My mother was on the same policy.
The annual limit on hospital coverage was $1000 after the deductible
was reached. That’s not a typo. My father died as a result of a car
accident. Had he lived, the hospital bills would have bankrupted my
parents and they would have lost their house. There is no doubt in my
mind about that. Under the reforms on the table as I understand them,
my parents could have accessed better insurance through the exchange,
and a better policy would have been affordable to them through the tax
credits provided for under the legislation. If the bill passes, my
mother can stop writing a COBRA check each month for the privilege of
maintaining completely worthless insurance coverage. She’ll have new
options through the exchange. Will what she finds be better than the
public option or a Medicare buy-in? Of course not. But it will be
better than her status quo, because she has preexisting conditions. no
coverage through her employer, and a fixed income, and she won’t be
eligible for Medicare for 8 more years.

So that leads me to my larger question for FDL: If you oppose this
bill but feel strongly that reform is needed (as I know you do), what
possible legislative path do you see to acceptable reform? Let me put
it another way, and I would ask that you not read any sarcasm into my
question or view it as an assumed rhetorical: Do you honestly believe
that this Congress (or the 111th Congress, which will almost certainly
be more heavily Republican) would ever pass the kind of reform package
that you would embrace? If you have a real strategy in mind that
would accomplish this, I haven’t seen it on FDL. Perhaps I missed it.
As I mentioned, I’m not a regular reader.

I ask this question of you because I have real doubts over whether we
can do better than this bill at this time. If the bill fails, we will
be saddled with the status quo for longer…perhaps for another
generation. I wish we had 300 progressive Democrats in the House of
Representatives firmly committed to single payer. I wish we had 65
progressive Democrats in the Senate who felt the same way. We don’t.
We probably never will, at least in my lifetime.

So what is the alternative course of action that FDL proposes that has
a real chance of resulting in meaningful reform this year? I would
love to see a thoughtful posting on that topic that walks readers
through the entire process, from scrapping the current bill to placing
a bill on the President’s desk for his signature, with a narrative
that explains how this new proposal would navigate the various reform
land mines with which we’ve all become familiar. I know you are very
busy, so I don’t expect to see this post, but I felt compelled to
share my thoughts and my questions. Although we disagree on this
issue, I commend your dedication and acknowledge your hard work and
your willingness to fight for your convictions.

Hope this helps

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Have fun explaining that move Democrats. Go home and tell your constituents that not only did you deny them the public option they overwhelming want, but you decided to take money from low income college students, and use it to protect the profits of the private health insurance industry.

The Democrats don’t need a good CBO score, nor do they need 60 votes in the Senate, nor for that matter “revenue-neutrality” or cost controls or anything else they claimed to have needed. Obama likes the Senate bill, the Democrats will rally the masses behind the slogan of “we’re better than the Republicans,” and that’s all that really matters to them anymore.

talk about starting off on the wrong foot!

It’s called democracy

There is no way a public option will make it as long as the President is in office. The fix is in and every deal they made would be undone. It isn’t going to happen. The way this whole thing has been handled by the dems has become so toxic, and the dems will stampede to insure the news cycles are filled with their ‘efforts’ at job creation. They have been miserable on message, partially because the white house has been laying land mines along the way. The toxins have been amplified by the slants of corporate media, faux, and the President’s blue dog inclinations.

On MSNBC’s Dylan Ratigan’s show Congressman Grayson stated that passing this legislation would demonstrate “hope over fear”

He also encouraged folks to call their Reps about his bill called the “Public Option Act” not sure of the house bill number

I think you’re referring to posts by Jason Rosenbaum at the Seminal. Jason’s views are very much in line with HCAN and the Democratic Party, so much so that HCAN pays him to write what he does. FDL doesn’t typically discourage the expression of different views. If you disagree with a post, say so in the comments and defend your view. Otherwise, ignoring it and moving on to another post is always an option. Of course, for those of us who care about FDL, it is hard to ignore it when it inexplicably ends up on the front page…

They don’t ask. *G*

The sad thing is some of the supposed ‘progressives’ in congress are reluctantly voting for this bill so it won’t hurt them in the 2010 elections. When I suspect it’s going to hurt like hell when the voters realize what’s been done to them and that the promised “benefits” of this bill don’t ever actually materialize, but all the costs do.

That’s pretty obvious isn’t it? This whole dance has been one BIG farce from the beginning. The Dems. have elevated political grandstanding and Kabuki theater to new heights. Hell I’d say give them the SCREWY ( the political equivalent of the Oscar) for their yr. long performance. Now, for whether this show actually fooled the rubes? Seems to so far, and the way its structured by the time they fig. out the screwing they’re going to get behind it, it will be way to late and the political actors that gave it to us will mostly off stage and in their Health Industry lobbying or other jobs won’t they? As for all the rest of us. Were on our own to face the Health mafia’s death squads.

Lookie here what I brought home for you, Constituants: more bills to pay, less coverage, the same old bureaucratic pile of papers, people still not receiving the care they need, and none of that silly choice stuff. Ain’t this the purtiest turd you ever saw? We democrats sure can get ‘er done.

On MSNBC’s Dylan Ratigan’s show Congressman Grayson stated that passing this legislation would demonstrate “hope over fear”

Supporting this legislation would demonstrate closing one’s eyes over opening them.

Grayson, stfu.

The Dems are avoiding the Repub victory of no HR…it’s politics not patriotism.
1.Housing sucks
2.Jobs suck
3.Health care really suck badly for almost all.
4.Sewer, Water and Power infrastructure sucks
5.Individual rights are going down the neocaon rathole
6.The rule of law is gone down with torture, no consumer protection or industry regulation. No accountability for crimes
7.Stock are up along with environmental pollution
8.Eternal war
Still love my place on the planet

Not really because I’m informed he’s a moderator and not just a poster. I don’t see how that is just opinion then.

But that’s what I mean. Isn’t it first a conflict of interest and secondly, saying it doesn’t represent the views of FDL is wrong if he is a moderator and has power on this site. Especially when many many posters on here, do not share his views or work for the Dems and his views are polar opposite to Jane’s. It gets damn confusing.

Incredibly articulate and well written. I appreciate your point. In the previous post from Jane, and the comments which followed, there was discussion about not having a clear path at this point. Jane said that we need to regroup and rethink. I agree. This congress is incapable of passing meaningful reform. The next one will be, too. At this current juncture we need to find a way to leverage true progressives into office. That seems, to me at least, to be the only answer.

Electing progressives, however, is not the strong point of Americans. People fear change. Something I’ve learned in my personal life is that people only seem to change when pain outweighs the fear. If this holds true for all, or most, then this reform may well be the launching point for change. This legislation will help some, undoubtedly. Folks like your parents. It’s also going to hurt a lot of people.

My hope is that the pain is brief. I also hope it’s strong enough to outweigh the fear. I hope it’s strong enough to force change.

Edit – I’m sorry for your loss. I feel this reform is a positive step to addressing some of the specific issues that seem to have affected your family. It does, however, bear no resemblance to what we were promised, and it creates many more problems than it solves.

I’m no FDL but my take in answer to your questions is here.

In particular, comment 31. Others disagree with me but this nation is at a point financially it has NEVER been at before and the efforts to ‘make it all the same again’ are-and will- fail.

Jason R. has worked on the health care reform issue for some time. He has opinions that are different from what you see on the front page, or in the comments, for that matter. What that difference of opinion has done, at least for me, is tell me that there are no good answers for the questions we raise on the HCR bills. At least, Jason hasn’t come up with any, and he seems to be trying pretty hard.

Everyone here has a different life experience. Me, I’ve alway had a problem with being lied to my face. Over. And over. And over again. My wife can just shake it off and insist that B.O. smells as sweet today as the first day she heard him speak. To me he is a lying rat bastard. Can’t get past that.

So Barry had a chance to lead us to the promised land, but for whatever reason (personal gain?, conservative at heart?) he made a choice to ride the corporate cash cow. Add the senate and house playing their little “I’m for it, but ____________ is blocking it bullshit game and a lot of us are just plain pissed off (which of course is because we’ve been pissed on). We’re (I’m) just not in the settling mood when we could have done something right for once. We worked too hard for the hope of change to settle for something the jackass party could have delivered.

Regarding B.O.? Something stinks!

The irony? I make a boat load of $$$ from Pharma/Biotech.

” If the bill passes, my mother can stop writing a COBRA check each month for the privilege of maintaining completely worthless insurance coverage.”

You might want to double check the “when factor”.

I’ll admit that it’s confused me too from time to time. For example, in the days leading up to the MA special election, when some of it appeared on the front page. Still, many who come to FDL regularly can spot the bullshit because of what they learn at FDL, so overall I’m not so sure we should be complaining about the contents of posts that are published at The Seminal.

Well I can’t answer for anyone else here, but here are my thoughts:

what possible legislative path do you see to acceptable reform?

Well for years now, it’s been explained to us that we can’t have health care reform because Republicans controlled the White House and/or congress. But, we were told, if we elect enough Democrats to get a majority we can have real progress. So we did.

Oh, but we can’t overcome that lousy filibuster they told us. If only we could have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate then you can have some progress. So we did.

But still no health care, and no progress at all in any area of government.

Now we’re realizing there is no hope. There will NEVER be any reform, but we’re supposed to just support this huge boondoggle giveaway to corporate America and hope that some minor benefits will trickle down on at least a few people.

Meanwhile to pay for this pseudo-reform that doesn’t help anybody but big Pharma and Insurance companies, we will most likely have to accept cuts to programs that actually do help people.

Which is really the ultimate aim anyway isn’t it. Funnel more money from the poor and middle class up to the rich and do it by gradually whittling away at any program that actually helps We the People until there’s nothing left but feudalism.

I really hope that some of the benefits they promise this bill will bring to at least a few people come to pass, but I’m not holding my breath. And since this stuff won’t really take effect for another 4-5 years, it will be hard to look back at this thread so you can let us know if you got what you were expecting out of it.

I suspect that’s by design as well.

“Congressman Grayson stated that passing this legislation would demonstrate “hope over fear”

If wishes were horses, the beggars would ride.

PS

I want my money back!

I certainly appreciate hearing from a wide range of informed voices.

I can’t speak for anyone else on here or any other site, only for myself.

Well, to start with, I view this bill as worse than the status quo. Why?? For one, it does NOTHING to solve the problems health care reform is supposed to solve. Cost and accessibility. It does not, in any way, control costs. Double digit annual increases in premiums will continue, especially since they’re operating under an exemption to anti-trust laws. They can actually, legally, price fix!!!

As for accessibility, I suspect that there are some that will now get some health care that aren’t now. But it’s nowhere near the 30 million number they’re touting, and they too will be limited in the amount of “care” that they can afford. An awful lot of people today HAVE insurance, yet can’t afford to go to the Doctor when they’re sick because they can’t afford the deductibles and co-pays. NOTHING in this bill changes that. So you give a person living paycheck to paycheck a “policy” that covers 80% after a $500 annual deductible. He/she still can’t afford care if that’s the case. Nor should he/she have to. Health care is a right, not a privilege.

Also, another reason why it’s worse than the status quo, is a lot of people’s insurance is going to get worse. Why? THe tax on “cadillac” plans. This will lead those employers that do provide health insurance to opt for cheaper coverage (thus escaping the tax) but cheaper will mean more co-pays and deductibles. Or worse coverage than they have now.

Another reason why, IMO, it’s worse than the status quo is because it will forever (IMO) end any and all hopes of real reform, such as single payer or national health care. Why? Because we’ve all seen how the moneyed interests can “buy” legislatures and legislation. With the mandate shoveling billions and billions of new dollars into the industry, they will, IMO, be able to forever buy off any future attempts at reform. This alone, IMO, makes this bill unsupportable.

Then when you add in the fact that even the regulations they are adding have loopholes big enough to drive a truck through, with no real enforcement mechanism, the bill really does very little in terms of what it’s supposed to do.

As far as the future path, well, again IMO, with the passage of this bill, the issue is dead. If it fails, the issue is still alive and well, and the public outcry for reform will only get louder. Eventually, IMO, the pols would have no choice but to give in to those demands and pass some real reform. As it is now, I believe the outcry for reform will be able to be ignored or rebutted with “Ah, we just passed reform, we have to give this a chance first.” Which of course, is why it doesn’t kick in until years later. They’ve done nothing, yet took the issue off the front burner. Pretty neat, huh?

So, IMO, financial ruin will continue to hit folks who get sick. Deaths will continue due to lack of access, and now the issue is dead AND the insurance companies have even more power and influence to stop further reform.

That’s a summary of how I feel. I too welcome feedback. I hope like I’m wrong on all of those accounts.

The dog is going to hide in its kennel. They only come crawling back when they are offered another unless tidbit.

That’s a valid point. I concede she may exhaust COBRA and need to find another policy before certain provisions kick in. Again, I do acknowledge that the bill is flawed.

I’ll be surprised if your Mom ends up buying insurance through the Exchange. I know in MA very few people actually purchase insurance through the Exchange (I, for one, can not afford it). Almost all of the newly covered are covered by the Medicaid expansion. Often those who do purchase through the Exchange, only do so when sick and then drop the coverage because it is very expensive.

Why be so angry at Obama and the congressional Democrats? You can’t imagine why? Because clearly they had the majorities and the mandate to pass a public health insurance program. My preference would have been access to Medicare, which the public clearly supports. Not only did they not do that, but several bad actors, first and foremost, the President, worked against that. I mean, you must have read by now that Obama cut a deal with the hospitals to kill the PO in exchange for their tacit support, or that he cut a deal with drug companies not use the buying power of the federal government to buy Medicare prescriptions, or that he sided with the insurers over the personal mandate issue, while again, not allowing citizens the choice of public health care. I frankly, do not see how one could not be at the least strongly disappointed in the President’s behavior, and certainly in the Senates.

Your mother will still be paying COBRA each month for her insurance for several years — the exchanges aren’t due to be set up until 2014. The bill sucks because whichever exchange plan your mother chooses, they will be at liberty to triple the fee she pays because of her age and her pre-existing condition. They may have to give her coverage, but it doesn’t have to be affordable*, and if she doesn’t buy insurance she’ll be paying a fine to the IRS.

FDL is opposed to the bill because it is a bail-out for the insurance industry, it takes away reproductive health care for women, and it contains a mandate that will force people to buy junk health insurance which will still refuse to pay for treatment. This bill enshrines the status quo.

I’d like to see FDL back Alan Grayson’s Medicare Buy-In bill (which now has 74 co-sponsors in the House). It is revenue neutral, and would fulfil the need for a public option to compete with the for-profit insurers.

*See Emptywheel’s site on FDL, she has several articles about affordability under the HIR bill.

Truth be told, both the PhRMA deal and the AHA deal were traded to shut down those industries air war (and in the case of PhRMA to get positive Harry and Louise ads for “healthcare reform”). Likely there wouldn’t be any bill had these folks joined AHIP, the GOP, Republicans, and the lobbyists funding the Tea Party movement had hit the media all at the same time like they did in 1994.

It’s lousy policy. It will be hard to explain. But from Congress’s perspective the heavy lifting is done; everything going forward will be minor changes. If we are smart, we will figure out how to make those minor changes a public option and then single-payer before 2014 when the worst parts of the bill hits the public. Grayson’s bill opening up Medicare is the first move in this post-Senate bill era; it will likely fail to gain support, but can provide a focus for rallying votes and extracting commitments in 2010. The most workable strategy is to slowly change the Congress in a progressive direction; “progressive direction” does not yet mean “progressive”. Jane’s holding the progressive caucus accountable for their statements is the first step toward this.

You have to hear Tim Ryan’s speech on starting over to hear how Democrats in Congress will run on the bill. I actually think that Republicans will have a hard time this November defended their vote against restrictions of insurance company denials of pre-existing conditions, rescissions, annual and lifetime caps, rating by factors other than age and geographic location, community healthcare clinic expansion, and other items that take place immediately. They can scare people about the exchanges and mandatory purchase of insurance that is coming in 2014, but I think that is likely to fall flat.

Meanwhile the initial media narrative will be that Obama has met his Waterloo as Wellington, not Napoleon. And I think that Jim DeMint already is a bit vulnerable from the right in SC; they might be the ones who turn out to be demotivated.

We should not to succumb to our own rhetoric in trying to drive healthcare reform forward; because of the complexity of the bill, there is much partial truth in discussing it. Nor should we rest in the illusion that this either some great accomplishment or great betrayal.

Just got an e-mail from my local OFA organizer asking to make calls supporting health care.

I responded to her e-mail:

Can I just write a check directly to AHIP and PHrMA? You know, eliminate the middle man.

Oh, and as far as being angry at Obama??

Well, he lied. I don’t much like that. He campaigned waaaaaaaaaayyyy different than the way he is governing. In fact, IMO, he is governing just like a moderate Republican (from say 15-20 years ago).

I realize the President can’t do everything on his own. But on issue after issue, in fact every issue so far, he has used his energy to work towards the right. On every issue. And his dismissal of holding those in the last administration accountable for torture and other crimes is, IMO, unforgivable. As is his arguing before the SCOTUS, and getting them to agree, that he can, with only his signature on a piece of paper, declare a person a “non-person” and thus not eligible for any constitutional rights. Not even habeas corpus, which is internationally viewed as a basic human right. He shat upon the constitution in ways that would’ve made Cheney blush.

he paid 100 percent of the premium. The annual limit on hospital coverage was $1000 after the deductible was reached.

I have to assume the deductible was high and the premium was more than $1000/year, so why did he even bother? Would have been better off banking those dollars against they day they were needed. I’d have the same question for you mom now. Unless there’s some benefit you didn’t mention that makes it cost-effective to keep.

I gave up trying to keep track of the different bills, but:

As I understand the current legislation (other than a corporate giveaway, who knows what it will end up), since his employer offered ‘coverage’ – such as it was – he would not have been eligible to go to the exchange for years. Your mom would have other options a few years from now, but other than including a possible a premium subsidy, those may or may not be ‘better’.

Have you actually read the Senate version of the proposed bills? First off the so called Exchanges are yrs. in the future and God only knows if they’ll ever even happen. The Health Care mafia doesn’t rest and they’ll go on paying huge amounts to continue to whittle down or distort this so called reform into what they want and nothing else. So far they’ve been doing a pretty good job of doing just that. from the beginning they’ve paid as we now know to take Single payer off the table and then a Public Option, which by the way are really the only real ways that anyone will ever even remotely “bend the cost curve” to use their phrase. So, the Exchange thing is yrs. away and there is no guarantee it will ever even happen. Then there are the so called subsidies for the millions that cannot already afford the present policies available let along what they’ll cost in the yrs. ahead when these again supposedly kick in, if they ever do. From my reading of whats being proposed these promises are also just that promises and if anything I’ve seen this last yr. and half is that the promises ( word) of people without HONOR are worthless. So, that leads us two the Forced mandate which has been and is still being sold to everyone out here for some odd reason as guaranteeing COVERAGE. This is the really Orwellian part of all of this so called reform and the part we here @ FDL have raged about. The Force Mandate to have to have PRIVATE Coverage ( cause no other alternative is available thanks to these people, except of course for them) is really at the BLACK heart of this whole scam being sold to America as Reform. This will Force us ALL to have to prove we have Insurance coverage as a price of Citizenship. Where in the Constitution does it say anywhere that Private Corporations have the right to directly levy what is essentially a TAX on all of us? If the Democrats really thought that it was so important we should all have so called COVERAGE these hypocrites could have easily without all this BS extended the existing PO Medicare to everyone and done it without 60 votes is my understanding of the law. But, since this whole exercise isn’t about extending Coverage but instead about Forcing people to buy what they might not want. ( Mostly monopoly Health Ins. coverage) that’s why were getting this shitty bill. Now, follow me here. You my friend and me and everyone else can wager that the ONLY two parts of this monumental travesty that will stand and be enforced by the Gov’t will be the Individual mandate and the Individual Excise tax on our existing so called Cadillac health plans to finance it. The subsidizes and the Exchange are IMO BS that will never happen. Thats the long and the short why I’m against this. Oh, and if you really believe that this Bill has waved the Pre-existing thing think again. Remember, even if they cannot say no to you because of a pre-existing condition they can however ask you to pay a rate that you probably won’t be able to afford anyway. Same result you’ll pay the fine and walk away as many do in Mass. This bill doesn’t deserve to see the light of day .

Perhaps I’m getting too jaded. Perhaps I’m too bitter. But, I’ve given up on meaningful healthcare reform. No positive change will appear. The Republicans have been co-opted, the Democrats are gutless, Big Media is structured so as to make in depth reporting non-existent. The first issue, ahead of all others for me now is: campaign finance reform. We will never get decent healthcare without it.

Oy, your illustration of the disaster that is to come is better than what I’ve currently got – and I’m one of the lucky ones.

So you give a person living paycheck to paycheck a “policy” that covers 80% after a $500 annual deductible.

Mine covers 80% after a $2,500 deductible.

I just don’t accept the premise that we had “the majorities” to pass the public option, or that we ever had a true filibuster-proof majority, for that matter. It takes more to have a filibuster-proof majority than 60 members in the Democratic caucus. The pre-Scott Brown supermajority was illusory.

“Almost all of the newly covered are covered by the Medicaid expansion.”

I have an adult disabled child on Medicaid. It is almost impossible to find a Doctor that will accept it. Where are the 10 or 15 million new Medicaid patients going to find doctors that will see them?

This is the misdirection of this entire exercise. Insurance does not always lead to treatment. Sadly it may take ten years for the supporters of this bill to understand that.

Thank you…your reply provides some food for thought.

If it delays true accomplishment, it is a betrayal.

“I’d like to see FDL back Alan Grayson’s Medicare Buy-In bill …”

I would too but Grayson’s bill will never be voted on.

THe “60 votes are needed to pass legislation” is what is illusory. The U.S. Constitution is specific about the things that require a “super majority.” And passing legislation is NOT one of them.

Sadly it may take ten years for the supporters of this bill to understand that.

And of course that is by design.

Right on, right on…

Your money.

“Jane’s holding the progressive caucus accountable for their statements is the first step toward this.” Oh, like DK’s word? I think its way past time to face reality here. These people’s so called WORD isn’t worth the paper or the digits its recorded on from one moment to the next. The ONLY words that can be trusted is the ones they give their CORP. pals that we never see. The rest of us are expected to be like any spouse that has a cheating lying drunken partner. Were supposed to always be loyal and enable their behavior because we love them etc. Fuck that I despise these people and will no longer play along in this sick game. Let them get $$ votes and next time from some other chumps. I have given them way to much of my attention and energy for very little. ENOUGH!

It was a private taxation/force monopoly scheme that caused the actual boston teaparty. The British government gave the private east india company basically the power of government over American trade.

Barack Obama apparently cut a deal with the Hospital Industry to keep the Public Option out of his Insurance Wel-Fare scam wink, wink Health Care Bill.

Knowing he has done this deal with Hospitals, Obama parades around the USA telling the world he wants a Public Option, knowing all the time he wants the Public Option to die.

Obama reads letters from the very ill, and acts like his Health Care or Insurance Wel-Fare scam can help them, which it can not.

The most important thing Barack Obama done was expose the Dems in congress as a bunch of crooks and liars, just like Glenn Greenwald has been saying for weeks.

How do you fix congress, you must at first realize it is broken.
Second you must learn who the enemies of progressives are, thanks to Obama we now know. Obama is good for something, he smoke out all the little phony dems.

With the death of news papers, magazines, etc. to keep the masses ignorant, you must connect with the masses via new tools that some of my friends have, because at the end of the day an educated populace is the last thing these crooks want.

I also love the way, Obama and the language gurus come up with all these neat names, let us call the Insurance Bailout, Health Care Reform, this was real smooth.

stay tuned arlingtonva

Yeah, you are right, you know what it takes, it takes PRESIDENTIAL LEADERSHIP. I mean, gee, how do you think civil rights legislation was passed? Or, social security? Or, Medicare? The House would have passed basically anything Obama pushed for. That is a given. The Senate sucks. This is true. But all it would have taken is some leadership from the President. That’s how big things are passed. The super majority was NOT illusionary. It was what it was. I think you mean lots of those Senators may as well be Republicans, but remember they still caucus with the Democrats. Obama has lost that advantage. You assume that the President could not have galvanized the public on the issue of public insurance, which they strongly support. I disagree.

A most humble request, Seaglass. I want to read what you have to say….paragraph would assist me greatly. Thank you!

Am I the only one skeptical of the PPP poll that 89% of “liberals” support Obama’s health care plan and only 3% oppose?

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/poll-liberals-entirely-united-behind-passing-health-bill/

Really, only 89%? Why not 99%? Since when do 89% of liberals agree on anything? I wonder if there’s something about the “liberal” label vs. “progressive”, since I wouldn’t self-describe that way.

Still, it’s sad to see that all the “mainstream” liberal groups have closed ranks on this bill. And part of me would rather see something done than nothing… but I can’t defend this bill as written. I can only imagine a lot of people think they’re going to get free, government-provided health care from this law: most of them are in for a rude shock.

THe “60 votes are needed to pass legislation” is what is illusory. The U.S. Constitution is specific about the things that require a “super majority.” And passing legislation is NOT one of them.

I agree with you completely. My point was that many people had unreasonable expectations when the Democratic caucus included 60 members. They were never going to hang together on every vote, and that has real-world consequences as long as Democratic leaders (foolishly) refuse to overturn filibuster rules.

Yes, the masses will be in for a rude shock.

But those supporting the bill now (both pols and anyone carrying that message) do know what’ in the bill. Or what’s not.

They know it, support it, and so now they own it.

One of the problems, IMO, right now is FDL is viewed as “radical” or out of the mainstream. We have got to make sure that as many folks as possible understand who owns this bill, and who fought against it. Because when that rude shock comes, those folks are going to be looking for leadership again. Then, after seeing first hand what this bill does and doesn’t do, they may relook at the FDL as not “radical” but right all along.

People expected them to hang together on every vote because they all campaigned and won their office on the same platform. The democratic party did a wonderful job during the 2008 election cycle with the modeling of their message. It was consistent across the board and played to the majority of the voting public.

Of course we expected them to do the same thing as the others. They all promised they would.

Rep Dingell on Dylan Ratigan. “this is the best chance we have had in 20 years” “gradual process”

I hope so. Unfortunately, I imagine Fox News will seek out Natoma Canfields and interview them about grave, terminal illnesses. They won’t have insurance, of course. If they’re really poor, maybe they’d qualify for Medicaid: assuming their states are continuing to fund Medicaid when 20%+ of their populations are enrolled. And that doctors would accept Medicaid’s very low reimbursement rates for ever-increasing numbers of patients (most doctors could easily refuse to do so).

Anyone that actually works before they get sick will probably earn too much for Medicaid, and be unable to afford private health insurance. Maybe they’ll be lucky enough to walk into one of Sanders’ clinics? Assuming the funding is there and they don’t turn into the health care equivalent of the DMV…

I’m just so deeply skeptical of this bill, and I can see the stories running now about how Obama’s health insurance plan isn’t keeping people from dying for lack of adequate *health care*.

Citizen canadianbeaver:

You ain’t alone in your confusion but that’s the way ObamaRahma and the insurance and hospital lobby want it. Rahm made a deal with the hosp[itals, insurance companies and Wall Street last Spring and sold it to Obama as the quickest and easiest way to get this monkey off his back, after all it was a corporate idea. All of a sudden as is typical of all of Rahm’s “brilliant” 11-dimensional moves the floor fell out from underneath ‘im, the Republicans wouldn’t play triangle games and the progressive base of the party was mobilzed behind the “public option”. Now we are at the CBO scoring deadline and the give-away won’t clear so the only option now is to either raise taxes and cut spending somewhere (student loans etc) or write in a public option “fix”. Trust me, if the administration throws in another tax hike on the middleclass AND a cut in student loans then the bill won’t get off the floor of the House so Obama is now in a REAL tangle and there is no net.

the question that needs to be asked is how many people really know what is in this Obama Health Care Scam

Most people will tell you that Obama HCR scam will lower their Health Care Insurance.

(If you listen to Obama speak about his Health Care scam, you would think it had a public option, drug importations, etc. etc.)

Most will probably tell you that their price controls in the bill like the Public Option

Polling the average american about the OBAMA HCR scam is a complete waste of time.

Most americans think there is a HUGE difference between the Dems and Reps, there is not.

This is why, the elites fear groups that educate the masses.

What is going to get the masses attention is the BILL they receive from the IRS, and letter that says you have to buy Insurance.

After this happen take a POLL, and ask who like this bill

People expected them to hang together on every vote because they all campaigned and won their office on the same platform. The democratic party did a wonderful job during the 2008 election cycle with the modeling of their message. It was consistent across the board and played to the majority of the voting public.

That’s just not true when it comes to the Senate Democratic caucus. Ben Nelson wasn’t running in 2008. Blanche Lincoln wasn’t running in 2008. Joe Lieberman wasn’t running in 2008. And so on and so forth.

when can we dress up like republicans and throw insurance company record mainframes out of their skyscraper’s 50th floors?

The Democrats rolled over for Bush late 2000 on the Florida election count and have been rolling over ever since. The Clinton WH years had left a bad taste in many Democrats mouths but we stuck with Bill because the Repugs were blood crazy trying to impeach him.

Lets lay some cards down and call them as we see them. Newt Gingrich was no good back in the 1990′s for America. Can we agree on that? Tom Delay was not good for America while he was in Congress? Can we agree on that?
Two cards down. Bill Clinton may have been a skunk but G.W.Bush was a bigger skunk. Agreed. Gore and Kerry didn’t have the fire in the belly for the WH and the Democrats in Congress as led by Pelosi in the House or Reid in the Senate have worked hard at letting the Repugs run the place whether as Minority or Majority Party. That brings us to Barack Obama.

Barack Obama campaigned one way and now as POTUS is pretty much betraying many Americans who voted for him. Betraying us by not going after Bush and Cheney over torture,war crimes,Iraq funding fraud and contractor waste and embezzlements. Has let us down on Rule of Law. Has not given us a fair shake on this HCR. Obama denied us any single payer consideration. Has not been honest about who’s interest he was siding with from this HCR’s early days.

The Congress was used by Obama to conceal where he stood and wanted to stay. His backroom deals with AHIP/PhRMA were corrupt. Are corrupt. Now he is force playing any residual Democrats who were for the paltry PO to walk the plank over his AHIP/PhRMA insider politics. We have a bigger skunk in the WH then either Clinton or Bush.

Barack Obama is our new big skunk.This skunk seems to think he is pretty smooth too. Kicks us in the ass then dares us to do anything about it.

Obama should be feeling some real pressure by early 2011 and by mid 2012 he should look damn worried about getting elected again as POTUS. Betraying those who voted for him should have political consequences. And this skunk has earned some political consequences.Deserved political consequences for this HCR bait and switch he has pulled on us in particular.

This is not about the mindless Republican/Democratic two party tit and tat. This is betrayal of poor and abused lower economic class Americans in favor of the wealthy top class. Far too many in Congress are forgetting who pays the bills in this country every day,week and month. We deserved a break on this American healthare reform. Barack Obama is not going to give us one. His party is not going to give us this break. They will give AHIP and PhRMA and this current bloated Ameriacn HC regime a big break. But not us — we get mandated to pay in on threat of IRS punitive actions. Better healthcare for us? Forget that. This is forced health insurance pay in on a for profit basis to AHIP. Not more or better healthcare. More profitable for profit health insurance for AHIP. No cost controls for PhRMA. This is what Barack Obama is going to give us. And he is a liar to claim it is any thing other than this. A big payoff for AHIP and PhRMA off our sweat and labor. This is our Yes We Can POTUS. Behold the fraud.

Obama,Pelosi,Reid and the whole bunch of liar Democrats deserve to be voted out. Let the Republican real crooks and tea party elixir sellers ruin the country. We don’t need these Democrat fakes and populist tonic frauds to do that.To hell with’em.Give Obama and his fraud party some change they can believe in. We can’t do that? Why the hell not? Yes we can. And should.

FYI: there has not been a cbo score yet, but the reconcilliation bill is online and it does appear to have a public option (starts on p 116, i think). http://budget.house.gov/doc-library/FY2010/03.15.2010_reconciliation2010.PDF

The mandate. No public option. No cost controls. A ‘fraud’ loophole so they can still deny care.

Lies lies lies out of the little shit in the WH. That fucking Lieberman.

November.

That’s enough.

Jon, there is not going to be a public option. Deal with it. The only way we can show our disappointment with this group of demorats is by watching their asses drown on election nite. I am staying home 2010 and 2012 bcz calling your representatives, and sending them letters and cash dont make a difference, they are going to do what the party tells them to do. Time to change the party and we can do that easier with a new dem party than trying to work with this current dem party. They can throw us under the bus but they cant make me vote for them.

Asking that the money be voluntarily returned counts as accountability. You got any other leverage over these “progressives”. Apparently shaming does get to them because they have been targeting Jane as the “Red Queen”.

I mean real alternatives, not pipe dreams of third party victories or the progressive hordes marching in the streets.

Won’t take 10 years hoss.

Mandate starts fast, coverage comes later.

Revolt begins with the mandate payments.

We are on the brink of shit flying hard and fast in this nation, coast to coast and border to border.

And if healthcare don’t cave us, the economy and lack of jobs will in less than a year, and if we do Iran it’s all over for us and the planet depression wise and HCR won’t matter one whit.

So, we live in exciting times!!!

And there’s MUCH more coming!!!!

*G*

And despite my snarky doomsday rhetoric, I believe today was not only a HUGE thump on my chest, and it hurts, but it’s a day of unity, clarity, and I hold hope of we the people having rising temperatures as our water boils in our pot.

I firmly believe the Status Quo made a HUGE mistake, and Kuch is gonna be recalled fondly as the straw that broke our camel’s back.

I really believe that.

I have lost my parents to alzheimers and parkinson’s, so I know that pain of loss.
It’s going to happen, it happens to our parents, it will happen to us, we all die.
And the issue of medical coverage, or medical care, will become more and more of an issue, and us boomers might not be dying like we thought we would as the inroads to eliminating Medicare encroach upon our dreams.

In response to the Senate/WH Bill as is?

I won’t go into it, it’s been detailed why it’s a failure, why you or anyone else won’t really get the coverage OR care you think you are getting from it, and it won’t start till ’14 or later anyways, so that should be a clue.

Oh, the mandate starts before the coverage begins, so there’s that little devil’s detail.

You pay, but you get nothing, and if you don’t pay, you get IRS’d, dunned, maybe jailed if unable to pay or unwilling to pay. There’s that, too.

As to legislative recourses?

Are you serious?

There are none.

I’m not sure why Mz. Hamsher encouraged you to post your thoughts here, your points of view have been hashed out here in this FDL Forum for over a year now, and many folks here (including me) have been tracking HC and HCR since the 80′s when HMO’s were first introduced.

And your points of view, I’m sorry to say, the down side to your beliefs have been posted over and over again and again.

I’m sure you’ve seen some of them, either here, or in any other number of sources including the writings of progressive minded folks like Matt Yglesias (sp) and many others in print and internet sources aside from the MSM.

If all your knowledge base is based on TV, Radio and local/national newspapers and magazines, then you’ve missed out on all the details and dialogue’s that have exposed the lies and misinformation about HCR.

So, I hope I don’t seem too harsh . . . I don’t know much of you other than what you revealed in your comment.

But if you are new to progressive sources of information and education and reporting and documentation, then you don’t really have a complete picture of what you’ve been sold to believe.

And if you’ve not read analysis of all sorts regarding the legislation and the legislative efforts of the past year REGARDING HCR (there have been many effors proposed, reivsed, rejected, etc) then you are just going to have to do a lot of homework, or stick to what you know and believe.

Best of luck, but so far, yer missing about 90% of the HCR picture, it seems.

Many others, are missing it, too.

Information and knowledge are power, without them most are powerless and accede to the status quo they wish they could have. And to HAVE information and knowledge, requires a lot of time and energy to acquire, which all folks don’t have the TIME to do so, or the will to do so.

It’s a harsh world, it’s a harsh life, and existence here in the good ole USA ain’t any easier in many respects to anywhere else.

And it’s decidedly getting and going to get, MUCH worse for the masses.

Again, best of luck to you and yours, and if you decide to stay and roam FLD and its comments, then welcome. It ain’t easy. Life ain’t easy.

Dude, this Grayson legislation has been held to light, debunked, and disregarded as has Grayson for folding on his vote for the present incarceration, er, incarnation, of HCR.

Love your inputs but sometimes yer behind the curve of today’s.

A polite mouthful, and well done, I’m down with that.

*G*

He’s a mod at Seminal, I’d GUESS he’s not a mod at FDL?

Buehller?

And THAT’S well spoken too . . . and echoes my feelings.

Jason does what he can, what he has to, and well . . . at least he’s DOING (I wish I had a job like his, frankly, although I’m not sure I could be as loyal to the status quo and my job as he is). *G*

Not to mention the ‘useless’ factor for what she might get, as her care is denied one way or another, thru denials or raised co pays, deductibles, lowered lifetime caps, and lawyers tricks we’ve yet to see . . . but history paves the way for it all, the story’s been told before. People WILL be royally screwed, now, more than ever, under the Senate/WH Bill as is.

A hoss of a reply OFG, and nicer than mine, too.

*G*

Worthy snark!!!

OFA went to hell when Rahm too it over and melded it into the Dem Party Apparatus.

Yo Seaglass, I would have LOVED to read your reply, I value your thoughts!

But PLEASE hoss, some paragraph and sentence spacing for cryin out loud!!

Your comment is a HUGE wall of black images and impossible to decipher!!!

Please! Make your thoughts easier to glean, use some spacing!!!!!!!

(pet peeve, argggghhhhhhhhh! especially when I WANT to read the comment)

Certainly not in THIS millennium . . .

Yeah, I’m wondering about the intent of the person already in her comments.

Yep.

*G*

“DON’T SHOOT I’VE GOT THE PATE AND THE CRACKERS!”

You’ve certainly shifted gears from your personal issues to espousing about much, much more.

Quick study are ya?

Now THAT was some of the BEST snark I’ve read in ages.

Great analogy, visual, etc.

*G*

Huh? I don’t want to have to read it . . . can you elaborate about the public option, and WHICH reconciliation bill you speak of? House? Senate? Who passed it and sent it to CBO?

Hee, Hee. Yeh, I thought the same thing.

it’s pretty self-explanatory in the link. it is the house reconciliation bill and it is the one that has been sent to the cbo. the public option section starts around p.116. if you don’t want to read it for yourself, fine, but it’s there just like my previous post said.

the cbo score comes before the bill has been passed, not after. they use the results to get votes.

Those savings would be more than large enough to produce an acceptable CBO score.

1. The CBO’s ability to correctly estimate the economic impact of a piece of legislation is about on par with the weather prediction skills of a climate change denying meteorologist.

2. The CBO estimate is only important when the bill may help some poor bastard in Greasy Creek, Nebraska and does not apply to any transfers of wealth to the corporatocracy.

What an irony that almost 300 yrs. later here we are again, right back to the same level of corruption. I believe these kinds of arrangements were common in feudal Europe and Asia. You bought from squire A or you got your head chopped off etc. Jon, I’ve been a community activist now for 40 yrs. and these extortion type deals involving Gov’t agencies many times and Private contractors have been proliferating at all levels of Gov’t and are becoming almost the new norm. The problem is a very deep breakdown in the laws and there enforcement. ( the fix is in) Conflicts of Interest are not being prosecuted or even examined and open extortion is also being rewarded. The deep rot inside Gov’t orgs. and the deep corruption within Corps. is IMO at the bottom of why these obviously crooked arrangements are now openly sold as Reform. Here’s what pisses me and many others off here at FDL and in parts the Prog. community. The completely disingenuous way we’ve all been handled in this whole ugly affair. Did these fools really think that we’d all just look past the obvious lying, scheming and deal making going on here? Did they actually believe that in the end everyone of us would just swallow this nonsense anti-reform being sold to all of us? The audacious way a better deal for the very crooks that have brought us to this sorry place is being sold to all of us as a gourmet meal when in reality it’s a shit taco astounds me. What it’s done is greatly lower by opinion of pols in general and the Dems. specifically. I’m finished with this group. When they call me for $$ and support I’ll hang up now. It’s over I want NOTHING to do with any of them. I intend to change my party ID to INDIE the Dems. have lost me on this one and the rest of the dirty dealing that is fast becoming the sad hallmark of the CHICAGO mafia and their gang leaders OBAMARAHMA.