Well, the nerve! I tried to give the gentleman my address so as Earl could send me my money back and……….click. So rude! Heh!

The cynic in me says that there is no more than a few progressive politicians in Washington that have been backed by the blogosphere, that deserve to keep any/all money that has been given to them Jane. They have now proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, that no matter how influential/powerful the internet world thinks it is, it isn’t. We raise $100,000 for a candidate, and Mr. Corporation gives him triple. Can’t compete with that. Many of the corrupt bastards have come onto blogs and blatantly lied to get support. Pelosi is one that stands out in my mind. Crooks and Liars bought everything she said hook line and sinker. I can guarantee you one thing, not only have they opened the blogosphere’s eyes, but the next time blogs request money to “help” one of these candidates, a majority will do nothing but give them the finger back. Oh and for those wondering? Donna Brazille (sp?) is now publicly saying the exact same things as MoveOn and DKOS about running primary challengers against anyone that doesn’t tow the Dem Party line. So now we all know without a doubt, where the strategy of KOS and MoveOn comes from. The party itself.

LIST OF TOLL FREE CONGRESS SWITCHBOARD PHONE NUMBERS

1-800-828-0498

1-800-459-1887

1-800-614-2803

1-866-340-9281

1-866-338-1015

1-866-220-0044

1-877-851-6437

The money from the blogs and the “little people” is chump change. The pols could care less, especially after the recent Supreme Court ruling. It’s time to formulate another strategy to defeat the current crop of sellouts. It will not be through the power of the purse. Massive demonstrations civil disobedience are two that come to mind.

Calling the first of the toll free numbers, got a message saying please urge your senators and representatives to vote yes on HCR. WHAT?!
Jane, what do you think of this?
I’m calling Donna Edwards and Oregon Blue.

Dontcha know that “quid pro quo” campaign donations are corrupt unless you are a for-profit corporation? It says so in the Citizens United decision.

Nonetheless hold his feet to the fire. A respectful non-progressive would want to shed his campaign report of his progressive taint.

But I suspect he’ll keep doing the “I’m progressive only when it doesn’t count” two-step.

Lord knows that this is not that difficult. We are talking about progressive Democratic positions not Sanders socialist positions, fer chrissake.

If they could care less, it should be easy to return three grand.

Don’t forget to contact the local media. Newspapers may be dying, but their readers vote — and they read the editorial pages. A good letter in an editorial page can scare a congresscritter even more than a passel of phone calls.

What the halls of Congress needs are more democratic socialists like Bernie Sanders and far fewer “progressives” like Blumenauer etal.

It’s a terrible thought, but obviously, they refuse to listen to anyone regardless without installing the fear in them that they deserve. People are sick to death of all the glorious speeches, doublespeak and outright lies. The idea of online messaging, and blogging to influence does nothing apparently. Great to see the odd sound mind like Jane on the MSM, but it clearly does nothing either.

Signature, schmignature
what does it mean?
To say you’re committed
is kind of obscene.
Promises, promises, they’re just made to be broken.
it’s all Kabuki theater, you know, like a token.
Don’t make such a fuss, most people don’t even remember.
Forgive and forget and vote for me
in November.

Jane: As much as i love you, I am distressed by your mimicking Glenn Beck. Look HCR has to pass. We’ll continue to work for improvements. You are acting like this is it. You are being stubborn and not helping the issue.

So he got the money before he delivered, eh?

Well …

Also, Dennis Kucinich said “no comment” yesterday on whether he might change his vote to “yes”.

Well …

This is the Democratic Party. The party of Clinton and Obama. Not FDR and JFK.

He’s as likely to return that money – trivial a sum as it is in terms of buying a Congressional seat – as Obama is to arrest George Bush for war crimes.

Anyone who gives money to a Democrat deserves what they get: Nothing.

Aside from helping get Mr. Bipartisan get elected the internets would seem to have done little or nothing in effecting decisions by Congress and the WH. Spinning the wheels will not get this country out of the ditch.

You can take all the money the corporations give you, it won’t help you if people won’t vote for your punk ass.

This is the text of what you hear when you call the toll free congress phone number.
Thank you for calling your representatives and your senators. Please urge them to vote yes on Health Insurance Reform, because the American people can no longer wait for more choices, lower costs and coverage we can count on.
Who’s pulling the strings on this one? Talk about handing the Republicans and easy talking point.

Jane: As much as I love you, you are acting like a 3 year old baby. HCR has to pass and will. We are not going away and will continue to change it.But there has to be a start.

Again, sadly, you are right. So what really is left that can be done? Demonstrations have proven to do absolutely nothing. They ignore them! Hell, Bush thought they were hilarious. Didn’t bother him at all. Why would Mr. Hopey Changey not think the same way?

His DC line is busy.

I will continue to try.

People will still vote for them. What choice do you have? It’s evolved back to voting for the lesser of two evils. The only real input anybody had was with the pursestrings and obviously that didn’t work. Sorry, but people will still vote for them.

That’s through Families USA.

Cheer up! Don’t let em push you around WITH YOUR HELP!

Lol!

His signature says it all.

Accountability now!

Am I the only person here who is concerned about the message I heard while waiting for the congress switchboard to answer?

I’m still trying to figure out why the rethugs are fighting so hard against the dims. The rethugs will get everything that they want in legislation or not pass what they don’t want. In other words, they control the government, but don’t have to take any of the blame if things go wrong. The rethugs are corporatists as is obamarahma. obama’s railing against the corps is just to throw a bone to the rubes; he is the corps front man now, giving them all they want. The dims think that we have no place else to go. Well, I don’t have to go any place. We won’t be any worse off with a rethug in place than we are now; at least with a rethug, we know where we are headed.

From your mouth to the voters’ ears. But don’t hold your breath. You’ll turn blue and pass out.

Not sure how that works. I call a toll free number to the congress and I get a political action message? Is this kosher?

Write to the local media and say that, Beese! C’mon, I dare ya!

Where is the list of everyone who signed the pledge?

Wonder if the Rethugs will raise hell about it.

Have you picked up the phone yet?

That’s what I’m wondering.

I think they already are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

I’m asking serious questions and you’re wasting my time. Thanks.
Back to work here.

No doubt, just trying to lighten the mood. And spirits. Koslings are currently gnashing teeth and rending garments in an ecstasy of fear and bitterness.

I try not to.

: )

I’m not a Kosling.

Let’s see, you’re going to “start” by giving away all your bargaining power? You’re going to fix it later? Can we get your SIGNATURE on that? Oh wait a minute, what’s a signature worth these days?

I’ll take a three year old with some sense over a naive adult ready to give away everything for a scam, any day. At least the three year old has some sense of self-preservation.

Sorry, not trying to jump on you, and lightening the mood is something I do from time to time as well. But, it’s all about timing. You wouldn’t hand a cookie to a fireman in the middle of rescuing a baby kitten in a fire, would you?

You’re definitely not the only one concerned. Did you record the message?

No problems. I’d kinda like the money I gave the guy back myself, but my cell only has like a buck on it atm. Have to get another card. I just don’t want people to get so down, we’re the good guys.

Give it up. The Democrats are on the verge of a historic achievement that will, among other things, save thousands of lives. You’re trying to break up this, for what? Some principle that a politician shouldn’t change their position during negotiations? Welcome to the real world. Idiot shouting head is a good phrase. Face it, FDL: you weren’t even a footnote on this story.

BTW, Jane sounds like anything but a three year old. Logic must have a way of sounding tinny to people with their ears stuffed full of delusion.

Choose your poison, accepting reality and joining other progressives in swallowing hard and supporting the Bill or becomeing a disgraced Naderite! I remember how Nader and his followers were so engulfed with their self-righteousness they were never able to accept that their stubborness contributed to Bushbags win, even now! How much serious thought and discussion has been given to the Political reprecussions of Killing the Bill especially knowing how adept the Rethugs are at framing issues. As Ive said in a previous comment, Sometimes being Right is Wrong. Its time to give up the good fight for the sake of our countrymen and party.

The real world is coming in November pal, just like it will in three years when the negative effects of the insurance cartel give-away come home to roost.

You’re certainly welcome to your opinion, however I ain’t caving like the softies. See you in November.

: )

AHIP, to contradict the US Supreme Court, is not “our countrymen.”

Bailing out PhRMA and AHIP isn’t my idea of reform or progress.

The table was rigged from the gitgo, I m proud to stand firm against this.

Mreddieb says (to paraphrase), If you can’t win. Just go ahead and lose and CALL it a win. That way you’ll save face, cause that’s what matters.

You are absolutely right but wrong

Heh, ever heard of Massachusetts? Reality bites dude and it’s gonna bite hard in November.

The hysteria to “pass the damn bill” in the face of what it gives away to the enemy, as well as the moralistic finger-shaking (e.g. mreddieb@44), shows the necessity of standing outside the collective in order to be free…

I wouldn’t want to be handling the phones in D.C. when people realize that nothing has changed except that their premiums are higher for fewer services, AND that they have to buy a policy or the IRS will knock on the door. Any alleged reform has a built-in compensating factor for the insurers, and the people gain nothing. There will be no fixes, either, and true reform will be lost for generations to come, and never mind women’s reproductive rights.

You see these things from the outside. On the inside, it’s win-at-all-cost. No wonder I hardly read any blogs any more.

You are absolutely right but wrong

Like the man says “You have to know when to hold ‘em and know when to fold ‘em”. You can compromise everything telling yourself you are being practical when the truth is you lack the stomach for a fight. There is a difference between health care and health insurance. Health insurance is the problem, not the solution.

You are rhetorically moribund.

Dont be ridiculous. If I wanted an interpreter id get some far better than you.

Horseshit.

From Taibbi’s blog.

Not a lot of pretzel logic untanglers out there, you should take what you can get.

You have articulated my sentiment very precisely. Much appreciated.

Your horseshit smells just like Naderite Horseshit! But it’s fun to discuss serious issues with jerks who love to cuss.

Fools bring that shit here then act like 13 year olds.

Tom Tomorrow nails it.

To you Horseshit is being Articulate? Seriously? Get a Dictionary.

Nah. Too many big words.

By the way, who’s paying you? Taxes withheld, or is this a 1099 gig?

Yeah, the Democrats are the verge of a historic achievement – they’re about to roll us back to the 12th century with serfdom.

Not articulate. ACCURATE.
and suprisingly, despite the reference, refreshing.

Blumenauer,

Have the courage of your convictions or resign.

You did pledge to vote against any bill without a public option because you know it’s the right thing to do for the American people, right?

Starting to feel and sound a lot like a tea bagger convention around here. Lots of misguided anger and vulgarity. Sad

I thought HCR was supposed to help people, not something that was meant to help politicians. Simultaneously ripping off the middle class to pay for a huge amount of corporate welfare is terrible legislation, but you’re more interested in scoring political points than in whether or not legislation helps or hurts people.

This should turn the war around. /s

No, he pledged to vote against any bill that lacked a public option because he was hoping that would give him more negotiating leverage to get a public option in the bill. Now that the decision is clearly between this bill, that will extend insurance coverage to 30 million+ Americans, and improve the insurance marketplace in a thousand ways, and nothing – which would be a complete and total disaster – he’s choosing to do what is best for the American people. That’s politics.

he’s choosing to do what is best for the American people

You keep on thinkin’ that.

I am a Kosling (and a Firepup) and I think that holding Earl Blumenauer accountable (and Lynn Woolsey) is essential to the next step in a whole number of other issues. Until third parties start playing to win instead playing to spoil, getting better Democrats and holding the self-professed Democrats accountable to their statements is essential.

To mreddieb: There are some nutzoid things in the bill that folks can disagree on enough to oppose the bill. Holding progressives accountable for folding the tent before the votes were cast does not equate to killing the bill. Let’s be clear who wants to kill the bill: Republicans and Blue Dogs. The positions here range from “pass the bill and keep pushing” to “the bill is unfixable so it looks like it is not worthy of passage”. If it turns out that the bill can be fixed (I’ll deal with you cynics next), there are some who now want to kill the bill who might change their minds.

To hotdog: PhRMA would be a better example. AHIP didn’t deal soon enough, and they are going to pay an immediate price although their members will benefits from subsidies in the exchanges beginning in 2014–assuming that there are not legislative changes before then; our job is to push for those legislative changes. And even in the case of PhRMA, they fired Billy Tauzin because they didn’t get everything they wanted, had a deal made public and poisoned some relations with Congrescritters.

To Elliott: Yep the table was rigged from the gitgo. And yet we’ve gotten some good stuff out of a rigged table, assuming the bill and sidecar pass. There is a transitional catastrophic reinsurance pool that with the prohibition on exclusion for pre-existing conditions and the exclusion of ratings for other than age and geographical locaton will mean that a lot of folks with pre-existing conditions will get at least catastrophic healthcare coverage that they can afford. That reduces some amount of cost-shifting. Insurers will have minimum medical cost ratios. And all of these somewhat limited reforms take place immediately; some people will see some immediate benefits. Most significant will be those with pre-existing conditions who have incomes that can afford the premiums; that provides benefits precisely to those who are most likely to be swing voters. And the Tea Party folks are sort of accepting defeat and deflating at the moment. But we need to push for more healthcare reform an not take the “This is a first step” rhetoric as a dodge; we should hold the President and Congress accountable for beginning to take the next step and make it an issue in the 2010 campaign. You can stand firm against passage of the bill all you want, but except as a negotiating tactic it is now irrelevant; the bill in some form is going to pass.

To come back to the point of Jane’s diary. Holding progressives in Congress accountable for what they promise is an essential strategic step to giving progressives tactical clout on legislation. Giving that away prematurely and with nothing in return is a sure way to never get good legislation.

Nice to hear an intelligent and cohesive commenter. You and I agree on a major issue and that is the bargaining and posturing is over. I don’t agree with those who’s position is to turn against those Liberals who took a strong position in support of a PO but now have decided to go against that promise. If we turn against them now will we be able to turn to them in future battles.

This was meant to be a reply to TarheelDem @75

Why should I support this bill?

It won’t make health insurance more affordable, because it has no price caps on premiums, and the subsidies aren’t indexed to future price increases. And subsidies make the real cost to the overall system go up, not down.

It won’t make healthcare more accessible, because it contains no controls on deductibles and co-pays, so I have no guarantee that I’ll even be able to afford to use the product I’ll be forced to buy.

It will entangle the private insurance industry with the IRS, making future extrication almost a certain impossibility (look how much of a disaster Blackwater has been, and yet we’re still dependent on them; and Citi, and AIG, etc).

It creates a condition that I could serve time in jail for failing to purchase a bad product, that has no price controls, that I might not even be able to use when I need to.

I don’t understand why I should support this bill. Perhaps you can explain it to me, keeping in mind the above points.

Thanks.

How often do you turn to someone who has shown you that when it comes down to brass tacks they’ll not support or help you? How well does that work for you?

Believe me I don’t like this bill one bit. What I don’t want is a situation where we cut of our nose to spit our face. At this point killing this bill or turning on Progressives in congress would only serve the Rethugs.

“AHIP didn’t deal soon enough, and they are going to pay an immediate price.”

Come on man. You’ve got to be kidding. They’re already chilling the Champaigne.

“…“This is a first step” rhetoric as a dodge; we should hold the President and Congress accountable for beginning to take the next step and make it an issue in the 2010 campaign.”

Show me one thing that hasn’t been a dodge for the last year and a half. I’m not buying the snake-oil, and if you extort it from me to make the rich richer and the miserable wretches without healthcare more miserable and broke, you’re going to pay for it at the voting booth. Pure and simple the Democrats own it just like they own the wars now. It’s a POS and they deserve to go down because healthcare is not health insurance, your poor argument to the contrary not withstanding.

Isn’t it obvious? You’ve got to put make up on those bruises and wear sunglasses to cover the black eye, because those dems may be nasty, but by god they’re the only man you’ve got, and besides where would I go mama? Where would I go? (dabs the tears away with a tissue)

You didn’t answer any of my questions.

You’re pretty convicted about your position, and I assume that comes from something other than tribalism (D vs. R).

I don’t understand why I should support this bill. Perhaps you can explain it to me, keeping in mind the above points.

Thanks.

I am not a Blue Dog or a rep, and I want this horseshit corporate sellout bill dead. It reeks, it’s worse than what we have now and is NOT what I voted for when I voted for Obama. The shifty little bastard lied his skinny ass off and sold us out.

November. 2012.

If we turn against them now will we be able to turn to them in future battles.

That’s their decision. They should know the risk that they will be primaried calling them out for not delivering on their promises.

Come on man. You’ve got to be kidding. They’re already chilling the Champaigne.

You’ve been invited to the party?

Show me one thing that hasn’t been a dodge for the last year and a half.

Yep. That’s why we have to hold them accountable and not give them a pass because we are either cynical or under the illusion that there is some third party that will win after the collapse.

So you dont accept my answer to you questions. I said I AGREE with your arguments. The issue now is, is it time to accept reality that we arent going to get the things you and I agree are best and accepting the fact that, for now were gonna have to live with some pretty bad stuff in this Bill as well as the good. My point is we have to decide if were gonna become Naderites or not. I have decided NOT to be a Naderite.

“You’ve been invited to the party?”

It starts early next week, on Wallstreet. See you there.

The only way to maintain an illusion is to pronounce it as fact. I don’t really care if a third party wins or not, the difference to date is negligable. If the republicans win, we get war and fascism. If the democrats win we get war and fascism. What’s the diff?

It is clearly not worse than what we have now. It has the risk of becoming worse than what we have now when the exchanges crank up or if we don’t pay attention to how the regulations on pre-existing conditions, rescissions, annual and lifetime caps, and medical cost ratios are written. But immediately is it is better for folks with pre-existing conditions (the high risk reinsurance pool does a lot of that). But it also has the potential of becoming better with sustained effort and activism and some strategic primaries of Democrats or challenges to Republicans in the 2010 elections. And reading the riot act to the progressive Democrats who are progressive as long as it can’t pass.

Sorry, I’m not of the investor class.

But, no one is suggesting ‘giving them a pass’. This thread is about clawing back the money we gave them out of our pockets in appreciation for their taking a public stand. It’s miserable that we have to bribe them to actually act like democrats, even more miserable when they cave like ol Earl here.

I’m done with such bullshit, it’s beneath me.

Then you’re being played.

The message does not matter, you are just using their 1-800 number. What is important is what you say when you reach the representative.

Bush Vs Gore that what we got with your kind of thinking. Imagine, if you political purists voted for Gore instead of Nader! Just imagine.

This has been hashed and rehashed. I am aware of the arguments for the bill, such as they are, and have concluded on my own recognizance that it is indeed much worse than what is in existence now.

I’ve never known anyone without some illusions and by definition illusions seem to the illusionee to be facts.

So what are your illusions?

Mine is that we are not yet at the point at which action makes no difference at all. Now that you’ve questioned it, I’ve made it a hypothesis. We will see if all this society is capable of is war and fascism, won’t we.

A vote for Gore was a vote for Lieberman, remember? Screw that.

Rapture!

lol.

this isn’t Bush v Gore

Not likely that hotdog is a political purist. Besides, that line of argument is so noughties. I prefer to go back to Hubert Humphrey.

Is your car suddenly empty? Are your pets forlorn? Can we have your bank account?

I’ve never seen anybody raptured before. Just the bumper stickers.

Every supporter of this bill supports the anti-choice provision, the individual mandate and accepts that there will be no public option in the bill.

For me each one of those is a non-starter. Together they treble my resistance to it.

Obama and Congress want class war, I’ll help give ‘em class war.

If we agree that this bill doesn’t fix anything (it doesn’t get us any closer to “Affordable quality healthcare for every American”), and it erects a framework that is actually exploitive and harmful, then why support it at all?

I mean you’re saying to me that I should support politicians who support this bill, and specifically support politicians who explicitly, in agreement with me, said they would reject any bill that looked like this one does; no robust public option, no cost controls, no guaranteed improvements to accessibility, etc.

Why? I would oppose a Republican who supported such a brazen piece of corporate welfare, so I’m having a hard time figuring out why I should support a Democrat who is working like a de facto Republican? I mean the brand image of the name attached to the politician really doesn’t mean anything to me. Democrats passing legislation like Republicans doesn’t make the legislation worth passing; does it?

Again, I assume that your position is based on something other than tribalism (D vs. R)?

Thanks.

My illusions:

the department of JUSTICE
the department of DEFENSE
the RULE OF LAW
national SECURITY
america home of the FREE and land of the BRAVE
HEALTH and HUMAN services

hows that for starters?

Dont like the truth, deny it. At this point in time after all the rhetorical smoke settles, the unavoidable truth is, working to Kill the bill is being one with Rethuglicans. Like it or not this is the result of that position.

Oh yeah here’s a BIG one:

the INTEGRITY of the voting system

well, we know we outclass them -for starters

Osama bin Laden breathes air. You’re just like him. Air breather.

Yup.

And to Mr Blumenauer, here’s hoping you lose your seat to a true progressive woman or a goat fucking republican next time around. It’ll be nice not to have to listen to your craven mewling or look at your stupid tie. You can spend the rest of your days somewhere that your halfhearted irrelevance won’t do the rest of us any harm.

Cheers.

I live for such moments of laughter. Thanks

LOL.. Please lets not go back to Nixon. He would be considered a liberal/Socialist Crook nowadays! If only Hubert had won. sigh those were the days.

Well, it’s really been out of our hands for about two weeks. It will pass. Even the Tea Partiers are deflated.

My point for about two months is that the future of healthcare reform depends on what we do after it passes. And my position is that OK there is now government regulation involved and a explicit assumption that healthcare is a right. And a little more temporarily. But the next step is to push hard to make fixing the problems with the bill an election issue for 2010; getting some Republican out of Congress will have a singular effect on the Overton window. My first choice is Jim DeMint. And getting a strong mandate for further reform–we know the public is on board with the public option; we need that translated into a Congressional mandate in 2010, a public option bill in 2011. And single-payer on the agenda in 2012. And holding progressive Democrats in Congress accountable for their bait and switch tactics.

We essentially have to get to single-payer by the end of 2013 in order to get this Senate catastrophe averted. You don’t do that by allowing Republicans or Blue Dog Democrats back in office. Or by increasing the size of the Republican caucus until they have the majority in one House. That is, unless the Republicans decide to outflank the Democrats from the left; give me odds on that one.

LOL

A good start. Guess you think all of those are nonetheless still possible here or you would have either emigrated or done yourself in.

Well said, and with intelligent calm restraint to boot!

It is possibly better for people with pre-existing conditions, there’s no guarantee they’ll be able to afford to use the insurance they’ll be allowed to buy, and there aren’t incentives in the system to trend that direction.

It is however a lot worse for almost everybody else. It also turns out there’s a lot more of everybody else, but I digress.

Unless you qualify for the expanded Medicaid, or have a pre-existing condition (and a lot of faith that the insurance you’ll be able to buy will actually help you without bankrupting you), then there’s really nothing here that’s actually “good,” and there’s no reason why either of those provisions have to come with an individual mandate for the rest of us, so why accept such a thing to get those other morsels?

Yah, yah, I see what you did there. This is that Lucy and the football thing isn’t it? Not going that route myself, this HCR fiasco has shown me who’s who in congress and the WH and I think I would trust maybe 4 or 5 of any of them (not Obama) with their hands on our laws.

I’ve been an ass kicking dem all of my life. Still am, but I won’t be associated with the rest of these repulsive little creeps and their soft minded internet enablers.

Do you have a pony?

There’s always hope, (to borrow a phrase)
even though the lack of change and the current erection of walls to prevent it has cheapened the word.

You’re going to get single-payer by 2013 with the same corporatist Democratic Party that’s currently giving you this massive piece of corporate-welfare (being generous, as in reality it is de facto fascist policy, and I wish that were hyperbole)?

That will be impressive.

Unless you think you’re going to reform the Republican Party from within, by getting liberals in their ranks, I don’t see what possible chance you have to get more liberal policy (which in this case happens to be the only workable policy) without purging the party of the neoliberals, the way they purged the party of liberals back in the 80′s/90′s.

That means you’re going to be in the wilderness during the transition, but if the country is actually more liberal than its representation allows, then you’d have two huge benefits. First, the pendulum swing to the right would give the necessary momentum to the movement (after all Barack Obama got elected on a much more liberal platform than he’s executing), and you’ll know that the condition of Republican control is thoroughly temporary, because just like Scott Brown; they’ll be summarily rejected when an actual liberal opponent is on the table.

You either have to change the pluralities, or know the current cycle of the game, so that you can distinguish between when to use strategy rather than tactics. The fact that the tactics are failing, are a good sign that the strategy is wrong, so a strategic shift needs to happen for progress to be made.

Maybe you missed this?

If we agree that this bill doesn’t fix anything (it doesn’t get us any closer to “Affordable quality healthcare for every American”), and it erects a framework that is actually exploitive and harmful, then why support it at all?

I mean you’re saying to me that I should support politicians who support this bill, and specifically support politicians who explicitly, in agreement with me, said they would reject any bill that looked like this one does; no robust public option, no cost controls, no guaranteed improvements to accessibility, etc.

Why? I would oppose a Republican who supported such a brazen piece of corporate welfare, so I’m having a hard time figuring out why I should support a Democrat who is working like a de facto Republican? I mean the brand image of the name attached to the politician really doesn’t mean anything to me. Democrats passing legislation like Republicans doesn’t make the legislation worth passing; does it?

Again, I assume that your position is based on something other than tribalism (D vs. R)?

Thanks.

in response to your response to hotdog. Our job is to push. The job of the politicians has become, do not give the people what they want. Mess with their health care, their education, safety issues, mass murdering wars, climate etc. Just keep the people busy fighting us, the representatives and the people will not have time to stop anything we do for the corporations. I don’t know about you, but I am tired. It is time we support and elect people that represent us, so we are not always having to work to force them to represent us. The major problem with my thinking is, when all you have left is Dennis Kucinich to represent real progressives, it really makes you wonder who to support and I say our only hope is a 3rd party. I really don’t think the democrats should be treating Dennis the way they are, because I think if he goes with a 3rd party, he could be a person to be reckoned with.

Well said.

Well I guess we have really called it wrong about the dem party. Common wisdom was that only the repugs voted in a monolithic block. Now we see that, for the right price (except for the lone progressive in the party, Dennis), dems ARE able to coalesce (or should I say congeal into a single pile of sputum), into a solid block to vote for an insurance company bailout. THey hold their nose that they HAD to include some benefits down the road for those ‘voters’. Not too bad though, they have been told by their financiers that MUCH blood can be gotten from the turnips in the next four years.

Just imagine if you had put the blame where it should have been in the first place, maybe we would not have all these corporate democrats. Who allowed the election to be stolen? Look at reality. Gore won, the spineless democrats allowed Bush to steal that election and then they took the easy route and blamed Nader. Nader? Was he on the Supreme Court that gave that election to Bush? Did I miss something? Stop using the scare tactics of the democrats. There is a huge difference between electing a republican corporatist and a democratic corporatist, at least the progressives recognize the republican corporatist and would not allow Bush to get away with what Obama has been doing.

You can pontificate all you want. Fact, come this November the Democrtas will be swept from office so there will be no fixing this bill. Fact, this bill will fall apart before 2014 due to its total lack of cost controls. So frankly, I don’t give a shit anymore. I like the medicaid part of the bill so pass it seperately but for the rest of this fascist bill I abhor. So please go somewhere else and suck your masters fascist dick because you are frankly nauseating to read. You are the typical spineless democrat that thank God wasn’t around during Medicare legislation.

This so reminds of the Iraq war vote. When I tried to tell people at the time it was not a good idea, they said, “Well look at all the democrats that voted for it, it must be good.” so just think, if they can get all the democrats on board with this, they will be able to fool all of us into thinking it is great and since it does not kick in for years to come, they can still get Obama re-elected before people start getting screwed. Although, the states that want health care should find out real soon, since the senate bill makes it illegal for health care for 7 years after it is passed. what sense does that make? What did the insurance companies give to Obama and the senators for that provision? Can you imagine, the federal government making it illegal for states to provide health care for their citizens and the democrats are going to vote for that and groups like “Moveon” are mad at Kucinich for not going along with it.

i don’t even like the medicaid part of the bill. Why should the citizens have to be so poor and beg for the same care that we are already paying for for elected officials? We are basically being forced into poverty and made to beg to get health care.

My position on third parties as presented above is that they must win, not be spoilers. To win, they must figure a way to get 150,000 or so people to vote for their candidate for the House. There is enough time to plan that campaign now for 2012 but not for 2010. And there must be an equal effort to reduce the number of Republicans and Blue Dog Democrats, which means careful efforts in less progressive districts.

The sad part is that almost all Republicans have been made vulnerable by their lockstep party of No opposition but Democrats have not fielded the challengers to take advantage of this opportunity. Also, for third parties, the deadline for filing in a lot of states (like Texas) has passed.

Too much longing for a third party is longing for different choices without a serious effort to actually create a third party. And from George Wallace to John Anderson to Ross Perot to Ralph Nader, it is clear that you can’t create a third party from a presidential campaign. It has to be bottom-up, the way Bernie Sanders did it. And third parties have a shallow bench or no bench at all when it comes to fielding candidates right now; just look at the struggle of Tea Party candidates who are independent of the Republican Party.

Who is responsible for shifting the strategy?

this HCR fiasco has shown me who’s who in congress and the WH and I think I would trust maybe 4 or 5 of any of them (not Obama) with their hands on our laws.

Are any of these “creeps” your Congresscritter and Senators, or are you lucky to have 3 out of those 4 or 5 who you would trust?

I’ll work on my creeps–all three of them–if you’ll work on yours.

If Gore didn’t totally fuck up his campaign… Imagine….

Fact? Where can I buy one of those crystal balls that tell the future as fact?

Fact: November is still a very long way away. Not all of the challengers have filed. We do not know what the public response to passage of the healthcare reform bill will be. Heck, we don’t even know yet what fixes to the Senate bill will be made — if any. We don’t even know who is voting for the bill and who’s voting against.

Rumors, intuitions, opinions, and fears don’t count as facts.

It’s going to be just like Massachusetts in November, and dems deserve it. That was a lesson, and they didn’t learn it.

Too bad.

We are.

We need to get people to better understand the game theory, the interaction of strategic vs. tactical voting, to dispense with the Hobson’s choice of “this or nothing” by not buying into the fallacy that “nothing” is the worst outcome.

The strength of the progressive movement today is predicated on the radicalism of the Bush-era, and the neoliberalism under Clinton that preceded it. We were taken advantage of by being sold a false bill of goods by Democrats, and our own self-delusion that neoliberals could be internally reformed. The radicalism of the Bush-era has been demonstrably extended, and the neoliberalism is being entrenched by the very people who told us they would reject it. If you want to undo it, those people have got to go, and given the nature of our system, that means you’re going to have to put up with the opposition being in power while you’re purging your own party and rebuilding your coalitions around new maxims.

Sadly it is becoming clear, at least to me that minds are pretty much set and the Naderite thinking has come to rule the FDL world.

Wow. What can I say, the Dems in power barely a year and you are Joining with Rethuglicans in wanting the Rethuglicans back in Power. Now thats some self hating liberal thinking, if I ever heard it.

Palin’s kinda hot.

Me, I not superficial, I love her for her mind.

If we agree that this bill doesn’t fix anything (it doesn’t get us any closer to “Affordable quality healthcare for every American”), and it erects a framework that is actually exploitive and harmful, then why support it at all?

I mean you’re saying to me that I should support politicians who support this bill, and specifically support politicians who explicitly, in agreement with me, said they would reject any bill that looked like this one does; no robust public option, no cost controls, no guaranteed improvements to accessibility, etc.

Why? I would oppose a Republican who supported such a brazen piece of corporate welfare, so I’m having a hard time figuring out why I should support a Democrat who is working like a de facto Republican? I mean the brand image of the name attached to the politician really doesn’t mean anything to me. Democrats passing legislation like Republicans doesn’t make the legislation worth passing; does it?

Again, I assume that your position is based on something other than tribalism (D vs. R)?

Thanks.

As far as I’m concerned you are a Troll. This is a liberal site and we don’t need no advice from Trolls.

[Mod Note: Disagreeing does not make one another trolls. Argue the facts please]

How am I trolling exactly? Be specific.

You’re telling me I should support politicians who support a bill that we both think is garbage, and which won’t solve really any of the healthcare problems that we’re facing that precipitated this initiative in the first place. No?

You’re telling me I should support politicians who are in my district, who said they would actively oppose such a malformed and exploitive bill, but who are now actively advocating for a malformed and exploitive bill, and vehemently admonishing those who are trying to hold them accountable to their original pledge. No?

Why? I would oppose a Republican who supported such a brazen piece of corporate welfare, so I’m having a hard time figuring out why I should support a Democrat who is working like a de facto Republican? I mean the brand image of the name attached to the politician really doesn’t mean anything to me. Democrats passing legislation like Republicans doesn’t make the legislation worth passing; does it?

I hear ya.

Hey [Edited by Moderator. Argue on facts, do not call names] I’m willing to say if the democrats pass this fascist bill they will lose the house and the senate. I’m willing to wager a $100, we can let Jane keep the money and she can pay the winner after the elections.

Notice how according to the Chattering Class (defined as “journalists and political operatives who see themselves as arbiters of conventional wisdom”) on tv, even Stewart/Colbert/Maher, OUR POV doesn’t exist? They ask why the heck are the American people acting so WEIRD now, that polls show they’ll not vote for their member if she/he DOESN’T vote for Obama’s health care, and also won’t vote for their member if she/he DOES vote for it.

Why, it’s only because we’re POLARIZED, is the answer. There’s 2 views, you either want this “really great stuff!” Sean Astin tells us is in the current version, or you don’t care about what’s best for you cuz you’re republican. Those are the only 2 possibilities here. What this is, is Government Run Health Care passed by liberals. You either want that, or you don’t want that. Nothing has changed and nothing IS changing. It’s still democrat (Obama) vs republican (them), no third ideas, never will be. Liberal = any Democrat except blue dogs. Progressive = you’re ashamed of the term “liberal” and you’re trying to hide behind this new word.

When this thing happens, we are going to be named by our neighbors and friends as the authors and instigators of it. Isn’t that amazing?

I wish Lawrence O’Donnell would go get his twat waxed in Brazil. (Bet I’m in a heapa trouble now. But can you look at that guy and not think that? I can’t. His fault! ICK ICK ICK.)

The “choice” aspect of this thing was only put in so that it could be taken out at the last minute, and that way, you (we) whiners can STFU, cuz “you got your way, you crybabies, are you happy now?” Champagne corks will pop, confetti will fall, Chattering Classers falsely representing liberals and progressives (the cherry-lipped mister kos, et al) will show up on tv wreathed in smiles of transcendental rapture at how WEEE affected Health care Reform SO ably, so positively, proving how great this country is, how closely obama was listening to us, and how well our systemn works. Pfft.