May I add an OT: ABC did pretty big coverage on the gl. Beck “social justice” story. Adding, that conversation is not going away. Well, good. Add it to HCR. Some people do claim honestly that Jesus was a “socialist” or “communist” and do not mean it to demean; but how he lived his life. Is there a lesson here for the fundies?

Beck has added he is not against charity, but against the gov’t. Surely he would recognize that some delivery system is necessary in a world as complicated as ours….medical care is not a charity option between individuals. Maybe his words can add to the debate….if Christians are to follow the “lose your life” advice of Jesus, maybe that is a socialist impulse…..Sorry, jut a thought.

peterr has a post up at FDL right now on that very issue revbev

Now 51 senators have signed the vote for public option thru reconciliation if it passes the House first.

So what does it mean?
Now the house says no, Pelosi.

http://whipcongress.com/?source=tpm-1022

They are playing a game. Now Pelosi has the no ball.

Does this change Jane’s opinion that there’s as yet no need to start whipping?

Or is this seen as an attempt to force the uncommitteds precisely because the votes aren’t there?

And when will they add “everyone gets a pony!” to the reconciliation?

If it’s true that the Senate will pass a public option if the House goes first, then why won’t the Senate pass the House bill that has a public option?

I’m confused.

Perhaps this article explains it?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/obama-durbin-and-pelosi-a_b_497359.html

Does anybody else some ideas or explanations as to this back and forth posturing going on?

Surely he would recognize that some delivery system is necessary in a world as complicated as ours

I am going to respectfully suggest that you’re way overestimating Beck.

Minor point. Van Hoolen is from MD not MA.

[Modnote; thank you.]

So Obama wants the senate to take out all of the special projects for the states in the health insurance “reform” bill. Since these projects are one way to get people to vote for it then, perhaps, Obama really doesn’t want a bill at all. Could this be possible?

It’s just so hard to believe that, at the end of the day, the Congress is fighting tooth and nail to barely manage to pass legislation that primarily favors the interests of the plutocracy and the health insurance and pharmaceutical cartels, anyway.

Health care “reform” has been a spectacular public policy disaster. All that has been demonstrated, or will demonstrated, is that the political ruling class and almost all of the officeholders are utterly beholden to big-dollar corporate sponsors and greedy plutocrats.

I sincerely hope for the legislation to die with ugly collapse next week. I don’t want any law passed that just requires me to tithe Aetna. “Reform” indeed. This legislation does fit the general characteristics of “fascism” but regardless of such a label being applied is generally tyrannical.

This the US. You’re note supposed to be able to buy a law from the government requiring everyone in the country to purchase your product, largely, on your terms.

man is TOTALLY tone deaf……………ugh

cuz this is a big f’king lie which will get people of good faith to piss away another week of their lives on sell outs and political incompetents,

INSTEAD OF investing their time and money into any and all primary opponents of these pathetic POS “leaders” .

rmm.

A…mazing!

Sounds like a done deal. Goodbye reform. Hello endless struggle against health insurers and their sleazy ways.

This represents a huge defeat for progressive values and an enormous betrayal of the Left by Obama and Co.

The Senate Democrats will only agree to vote for a public plan alternative to private insurance if they are certain that the House Democrats will not send them any such bill. Likewise, the House Democrats will only include such a provision if they are certain the Senate Democrats would never vote for it. By majority, the Party’s officeholders in the Congress and White House don’t want any public alternative plan. Such a plan would run counter to the interests of the health insurance corporations, who have bought off or coerced most of the officials. However, each chamber does not want to be seen by the public as really opposed to the public plan provision, so caucuses in each chamber try to position themselves in front of the public as having been in favor of the provision, but denied the opportunity to pass legislation containing a public plan alternative by the Democrats in the other chamber.

The goal of the Democrats in both chambers together is to:

1) Pass a salable fiction of “reform” for their gullible general election constituents to swallow in the elections this year.

2) Cater to the health insurance and pharmaceutical cartels, and their plutocratic buddies they maintain class ties to, in reality.

What we’re seeing is the final needed proof that the US is ungovernable from the standpoint wherein government supposedly serves the interests of the broad working public on the biggest issues.

Not just a betrayal of the left but all of America. And America knows it. Both parties are coming apart at the seams. Yes, the corps have taken over but it cannot last long for two reasons. The first being the fact that people eventually will not put up with it. The second is the simple fact that parasites should not kill off all of their hosts. When they do they are doomed.

None of us should ever vote or donate to any Democratic candidate or cause ever again in our lives ever ever ever after 2009.

fuk PELOUSY,and HAPLESS HARRY

The senate is willing to sacrifice the house. Why is the house letting them do it?

If you want to hear some Class-A double-talking Newspeak, go here.

Drag up to 5:50 for the really juicy stuff. You might not want to watch with your mouth full…

CLASSIC……Kabuki theater
who has the hotpotato….toss it

must go now by

It will be interesting to see who loses this game.

You mean, besides the voters?

Wouldn’t it be great if the house put the PO in at the last minute. (dreaming)

Because the House doesn’t really want real reform, ie, a public alternative plan, either. Neither does the White House. What the Democrats want to do is cover their asses in the election with snake oil “reform” which really is about enhancing corporate profits, while passing the blame for no public alternative provision around between the House and the Senate like a game of “hot potato” or “tag”.

As of yesterday, Pelosi re-killed the public option (she’s killed it two or three times now, but, conspicuously, never led on passing it) and now the House is “it”, or now the House as the “hot potato”. The Senate Democrats can all comfortably announce now that the votes are present for the “public option” because they have been assured that the House will not drive such legislation through the reconciliation process or in a bill sent to the Senate period. If this changes, and the mythical “public option” hot potato is revived again next week, then the Senate is “it” and they have to come up with a reason why the necessary majority vote count has disappeared.

The goal of the process is to, again, produce a salable fiction of “reform” for the gullible general election constituents, while sending Obama what he wants, which is legislation written by corporate lobbyists in the pay of a cartel that is insuring its own interests dominate the priorities in any “reform” legislation enacted.

In other words, the only remaining obstacle to this atrocity of a “reform” bill going to the White House is resolution of the game between the House and the Senate as to who takes the blame in the public eye during an election year for killing the crucial public alternative plan. The general public has enough exposure to Medicare and the fact that Canada and Europe all have public single payer systems to know that we want a public alternative plan to compete with insurance corporations. The public hates insurance corporations. So the last days of this public policy disaster to be played out will have to determine who seems to be to blame for the vaunted “reform” legislation basically kissing the feet of the executives and plutocrats atop a number of corporations the public hates, and will now have to pay tribute to under “reform”.

yep. but you do know that the voters don’t count.

parasites should not kill off all of their hosts. When they do they are doomed.

I like that observation. Will the ruling class get it? The jury is still out on that one, I’m afraid.

It’s not hard out there for this pimp.

We do.

If the house and senate somehow pass the PO I wonder what Obama would do. Repeal it? How far is he willing to go? I know. It won’t happen. I am spinning my wheels today. Lack of traction has become a way of life.

What we’re seeing is the final needed proof that the US is ungovernable from the standpoint wherein government supposedly serves the interests of the broad working public on the biggest issues.

The Republicans failed completely in governance with Bush. Now the Democrats are failing completely at governance with Obama. The Democrats are currently in power and are going to get hammered in November whether they pass this bill or not, although my guess is they will lose even bigger with passage of this POS bill. What we are seeing with Obama is what we also saw with Bush, a persistence in error, a kneejerk reaction to double down, magnifying problems into disasters and disaster into catastrophe.

Progressives should have been working on primarying Democrats 6 months ago. Instead many were caught up in pursuing a will o’ the wisp public option. We lost out now in terms of the deadlines for doing much in the 2010 election. The Republicans bad as they are, incoherent as they will profit. We need to start working now on 2012 so this doesn’t happen again.

I’ve been saying it for a long time. The for-profit actuarial-risk based “insurance” model as applied to health care contains the seeds of its inexorable destruction. Pretty soon there will be no one left to cherry-pick, nor any way to accurately “price” (and market) the risk for the various (and increasing) strata of non-cherries.

Did anyone else see Patrick Kennedy on the Floor Wednesday. CSPAN just re-aired it. Talking about getting out of Afghanistan. Man was on FIRE! And, pointed out there there were only two people from the press covering the speech, when we have Massa on the tubz 24/7.
You can probably youtube it, if you want to watch a great speech.

The short term solution to this problem is mandates, baby! Lots of money/bad coverage/more death.

Exactly. Force people to contribute to the Ignagni cartel by requiring the purchase of shit policies at huge cost.

You can also do what I am going to do, which is sit out the elections this year. A political ruling class like the one we have doesn’t deserve the legitimation of its presence in our government’s offices it gets when we vote for their various candidates and figureheads.

In particular, the Democrats deserve wholeheartedly to have their liberal activist base more or less stay home as a body this year. Not a dime, not a vote, not a kind word for them -

Expanding on my observation: there have been recent news reports of increasingly inexpensive commercial applied genome assays for the detection of latent but potentially life threatening conditions (e.g., cancers). The price tag has come down to around $5k, with some estimates of these tests getting down to about a grand.

Do you see the implication of this?

No One Left To Cherry-Pick.

I don’t know about that. You can do what you want, but I think there are a lot of folks here who prefer to stay pro-active.

I don’t think they get it, either.

The so-called “ruling” class appears to think that the great unwashed masses will just keep on reproducing and reproducing more and more fodder for cannons and banksters and parasitic credit card companies and fraudulent mortgage brokers and 300% interest pay day loans and loan shark-style student loans and so forth and so on…

Talk about killing the goose that used to lay the golden egg!

You can also do what I am going to do, which is sit out the elections this year.

No, annoy them with your voting activism. Find a candidate or two who are raising hades, such as Grayson. At least vote for the local school board to keep out the fundies. Oh and support public school funding. Even though the D’s have been partially captured banksters of K-Street, but we have a chance to primary a few of the rotten corporatist kritters.

The Corporate Party, America’s Superior Party because corporations are superior superhumans by law.

Yes! Let’s be “pro-active” and vote for Democrat incumbents in the election! After what they did to us last year and this year!

I wasn’t talking about primary challengers which is a different issue. I was talking mainly about incumbents in the generals. They should face a complete lack of support from the party’s liberal activist base. At some point in time there has to be some mechanism for accountability, otherwise, 2011 is the same as 2010 is the same as 2009 is the same as …

Yep. Just leaves it all up to the Repubs….reason I am still glad I voted for O. Where would McCrazy/Palin have taken us?

I thought that at least some the Dems would get the message when they lost Kennedy’s seat but apparently they didn’t. They continue to behave as if everything is good. There are lots of things that I won’t forgive them for, but losing Ted’s seat is right up there at the number one spot. Really stupid.

From this ABC article:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wirestory?id=10092416&page=2

“—GOVERNMENT-RUN PLAN: The proposal does not include the government-run insurance plan sought by liberals and approved by the House. It takes the Senate approach, which gives Americans purchasing coverage through new insurance exchanges the option of signing up for national plans overseen by the federal office that manages the government health plan available to members of Congress. Those plans would be private, but one would have to be nonprofit.”

Anybody know the specifics on the non-profit private deal?

Why can’t they just pass a public option?

Um, I didn’t say specifically what to do. Action is the antidote for despair, it’s been said. Sorry you’re so down. We’re all here to help each other, but you don’t have to take my advice, or snark back at me either.
I’m outta here. I’ve got a writing class to go to.

My basic position is that both parties are corrupt and deserve to die, along with their corporate paymasters, and that nothing sane will be attempted to prevent the ongoing systemic collapse, which is probably unstoppable, anyway. Therefore, my election strategy from now for the rest of my life will be:

1. Vote intelligently on local & regional issues, esp. relating to Nature, environmental concerns, food production, shelter, education, fairness, etc.

2. Vote AGAINST ALL DEMOCRATIC INCUMBENTS if a revolutionary alternative exist. Otherwise, I simply will withhold my vote in those races.

3. In selected cases, vote FOR knuckle-dragging idiot right-wing extremists if I judge the sabotage value to be worth the trouble.

I think you’re a good and smart person. ((Bev))

As much as I hate the GOP, right now I hate the Democrats more. I feel this way because most Democrats actually know better and they have the power to do better, but have chosen to squander the opportunity to do good, and they are LYING ABOUT IT! I don’t like to imagine the GOP running things again, but I don’t think I can vote for DEMs anymore either. In the end, they are worse because they give us hope and then snatched it away. The lack of the PO, or medicare for all, or any real reform that would serve the people lies at the feet of the WH. They have worked against a public component since day one. The Senate had no problem with that aggenda and the House will fall in line. So the blame lies with all of them, altough mostly the WH. Obama pulled a colossal bait and switch that I simply cannot forgive. Bush had his war that has caused a million to die. Obama will also have to take responsiblity as people will continue to die due to the evil that is the for profit-corporate health industry. Obama even managed to create a new health epidemic in the meantime, as all his supportors are now truly physically and emotionally sick over what has transpired.

And, I think you’re a doll….I can say that, can’t I? Enjoy the day.

Grayson voted for this nightmare the first time… and he has made no indication he is about to do anything but vote for House passage of the Senate bill this time around.

I seriously may never vote D again in my life.

Non-profit means NOTHING. Many Blue Cross enities are non-profit. It simply allows them to rake in millions and spend it on salaries, bonuses and lavish junkets for the top brass. The existing non-profits enjoy the same extortion based rate increases that the profits collect and their premium rates are all comparable whether for profit or non profit.

“This the US. You’re note supposed to be able to buy a law from the government requiring everyone in the country to purchase your product, largely, on your terms.” Why not? Doesn’t seem to bother the so called Democrats does it. Maybe we should stop calling them by that party label since their actions this last 4 yrs. or more doesn’t any longer fit the label. I have some new labels, The American Liberal Fascist Party or The Social Corporatist party. Democratic party doesn’t sound right anymore.

I thought that the FDL ‘community’ understood that the center is occupied by bipartisan, crosspartisn, transpartisan Washington Consensus hacks.

Apparently there’s still a debate whether it’s better to be sodomized by a truncheon or a baseball bat.

Accurate analysis of the way I feel right now. The Dems. are worse because the Gopers make no bones about what and who they are. Their open disdain for the people and in particular popular democracy is obvious and up front. Its the Dems. that are pissing on our heads and trying to convince us its only raining out here. Frankly, I find their whole deceitful lying act worse because condescending way they’re trying to have it both ways. No more! 40+ yrs. of waiting for these people do live up to their own lying words. The betrayal of trust is indeed far worse. A pox on both their houses.

They call it the Private / Public partnership now dude. We call it by its real names Corruption, Crony Capitalism, Fascism, Corporatism, Neo-Liberalism, Neo-feudalism take your pick whatever fits the bill on any given day.

Finally, make these wussies vote. I want to see who is going to shit or get off the pot. This thing has been going on for over a year and if the Democrats don’t know where they are by now then they will never know. And this guy Stupak is full of shit because I think he is a repub convert in disguise trying to find a way to kill the bill with this issue about abortion. Let’s go Democrats and let’s get this thing done and let’s hold the individuals who fail to perform to the get out of Congress standard.

You must be a Rush Limpball dittohead.

I agree Obama has been FOS but that doesn’t mean that you totally blow off the party.

And then what? What are you going to have then Seymour? A Republican party in charge of everything. I guess you will be able to complain about them too until the next election.

Would you remind us where the Democratic Party has forcefully promulgated it’s Party platform?

Some people do claim honestly that Jesus was a “socialist” or “communist” and do not mean it to demean; but how he lived his life.

The Bible states quite clearly that Jesus and the Disciples shared everything, retaining no personal possessions. They were communists.

Of course, the fundies will learn nothing from this, but it’s great fun to tell them about it.

I agree that no one should be made to purchase anything that they don’t want to. I also think that I shouldn’t have to pay taxes, buy car insurance, rental insurance, and fight wars that I have no say about. However, that is the point isn’t it? Sometimes we have to do things that we don’t want to. I would like for you to think about what is going to happen to this country when the Repubs get back in charge and don’t worry because they will soon be back in charge. They will effectively eliminate any ability that you or anyone else will have to get a public option, single payer or anything else. They are going to strip the Unions of any power that they have. They are going to nominate even more radical, activist judges to the bench and they are not going to give a damn about what you or I think. So I would ask you to really think careful about wishing for this plan, as flawed as it is to fail. THINK ABOUT THE ALTERNATIVE. (Limpball, Hampster, Beck, O’reilly, Ailes, Faux news, kristol, palin, and all of the below).

I agree that non-profit means nothing, but I was wondering what the details in the bill were and what intentions are there to drive down premiums. In Germany their private non-profits work, but it’s just a big joke here, especially when you look at Anthem Blue Cross in California, but there are plenty of examples:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/02/obama-administration-attacking-insurance-company-profits-lumps-in-some-non-profits.html

Anybody know what their plan is in this bill on the private non-profit, or this just another huge joke?

I want a public option already.

I also am extremely disappointed in the Democratic party. I was and still am a HRC supporter. Having said that, I have been observing the media lately, primarily the right-winged media and I am afraid of what is coming. The tolerance of hate filled speech is being allowed everywhere, liberals, progressives and unions are somehow decried as bad. Rush Limpball, Sean Hampster and Gin Beck are determined to be good for America. What is going on? In Texas they are literally rewriting the history books and yet no one seems to be worried. When I think about issues like this and the fact that had of the Democrats in office are repubs in disguise then I am just happy that there is a chance of this bill passing.

That’s the line of argument that allows the economic elites to accomplish their ends. They pitch one group against another, and while you’re occupied defending your group’s long forgotten purpose they dismantle all you hold dear. History is replete with examples of such a modus operandi. Stop being their reliable and useful putz.

You did not answer my original point.

You’re quite right that we should be concerned with the right wing fascist trends, but you cannot fight back from within the Democratic cohort, because the Democrats are fully beholden to TPTB, and they in fact rely deeply on the ‘loyal opposition’ to keep Democratic voters paralyzed and supine.

Talk about the party coming apart at the seams. Look how the crowd at Kos is taking the news:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/3/13/845537/-HCR-Over-Next-Week

Can we hope that there will be this much division on the right? Naah, too much to wish for. The tea baggers will fall in line with the GOP.

You would be correct if I was indeed a reliable and useful putz. However, being the person that I am I make a point of informing myself about all characters, issues and in this case politicians involved in this election. I work for and I vote on the issues that specifically affect me. I am a 45 year old (black male), retired from the U.S. Federal government. I receive the so call government run healthcare or government option so in reality I don’t really have to care if no one else gets it or not. Having said that, I know that it is only a matter of time before the Repubs come after me. I don’t mind spending a little extra money to ensure that everyone receives quality healthcare at a reasonable rate. I don’t need a reason for that other than it is the right thing to do. That is why I voted Democrat in the last election. I am a independent who voted for GWB in 2004 because I thought he was the best option for this country. I found out later that I was mislead, but that is something that I have to deal with. What I am worried about now is the pendulum swinging too far to the right and maybe getting stuck “Supreme Court Justices”. So if that means that I have to support a bunch of spineless Democrats, then so be it.

The Fox audience will also claim to be well informed, – the source of your information does matter, moreover you need to be able to discern what’s information and what’s propaganda.

The best sources of information that deal with the ‘existential’ (objective) issues at this point are to be gleaned on economic web sites. Yves @ nakedcapitalism comes readily to mind, Dylan Ratigan is an hour well spent. You can even unfortunately forget about Rachel Maddow. Zerohedge, Angrybearblog should certainly be part of your daily news rounds.

The one that I personally (being an economic laic) enjoy is maxkeiser.com. Dems and Reps get equal treatment. Keiser report#24 is a good place to start. http://maxkeiser.com/

You are absolutely correct that the Faux audience would consider themselves to be well informed although I would beg the differ and you are also correct that there is indeed a need to differeniate between fact and propaganda. As I stated before, I am retired and I fortunately have lots of time on my hands which give me the opportunity to get a variety of information from a variety of sources such as Mr. Ratigan and Ms. Maddow, among others. I will take your posts into consideration I will endeavor to learn more so that I can make informed decisions.

This is not popular on the left, but I think that Democrats should do this and just get it over with. Pass the Senate bill, pass a fix for the Senate bill, and then after that do some kind of stand alone public option bill. I like what Rep. Grayson has started and is something that could gain some legs, I hope.

My reasoning is that even if Democrats add the public option to the reconciliation bill, it still doesn’t make the whole reform package much more appealing, that’s why I’m saying do it as a stand alone bill that people can easily wrap their minds around. It may not work, but I’m a progressive who sees the Senate bill and the fixes as the base foundation for adding more reforms in the future. If after the Senate bill passes and the fix bill passes and we still can’t get a public option, then start doing primaries against Democrats who won’t vote for a public option bill.

I feel like that after a year long debate and the majorities that Democrats have, they at least need to pass this round of reforms and just keep going at it.

The PO is a very weak but crucial compromise, which in and of itself will need fixing from the get go.

Without it we are excepting breaking things to the point of what will be extremely difficult to reverse fascism.

You don’t intentionally make the two headed pharma insurance monster bigger… while claiming it will be fixed later with any credibility in my book.

Do you encourage children to kick over the china cabinet if they promise to fix it later?

The whole thing is just absurd.

Best, to you.

Thanks left-wing Glenn Beck.

ALWAYS vote,
NEVER vote fascist,
STOP checking off the names of OR voting for sell outs.

I wrote in my own name in 2006 in maria cant-do-crap’s general in wishy-warshy. I was really really nervous, the guy running against her was your typical flat earther lying his ass off – I feel better about that vote every month.

I did NOT enable cant-sell-us-out-fast-enough!

I am NOT voting for 1 Dim -O-Shit incumbent this year – well, unless they pass grayson’t medicare or something REAL – but – I will vote.

rmm.

Right on. That is exactly what I have been doing since ’94. The last time HCR slid into the septic tank.

How about Junior Republicans?

There is no hatred more bitter than betrayal.

That’s right, Vote. I have been following this political argument for the last 18 months and the worst thing democrats can do is not get out and vote this November. Hell, I am pissed off too that the dems are coming off like a bunch of spineless wussies but think about the alternative. The Repubs are already salivating thinking about taking back the house and the senate. Get out there and vote and bring your friends out with you. I do think that we should get rid of people like Nelson, Lincoln, Stupak and Lieberman. However, let’s try to maintain a majority right now.

It’s inevitable. Both parties are beholden to their master which is money. Even when it comes to Social Security and Medicare both parties have been transferring the yearly surpluses for decades to the General Revenues aka Military Industrial Complex. It’s amazing how far right this country’s “elite” have become. Nixon actually would be consider to the left today with his passage of the E.P.A. And if this last economic crisis wasn’t enough to change anything then we can kiss our ass goodbye. No siree, I will not support fascists if they are democrat or republican. The quicker Republicans take over and destroy the rest of this rotting corpse called American “democracy” the better. And only then will we get real change unlike Obama lying asshole snake oil salesman promised us and was voted in for. This country is progressive if you ask people if they support Social Security and Medicare. Hell, even the tea baggers I know down here in the South support these progressive programs. It’s amazing what spineless sellout monkeys these politicians are, how do they look at themselves in the mirror?

Murray Hill, Inc., a Maryland Corporation is planning to primary Chris Van Hollen.

I hope this thing is going to turn up in front of the Robert’s Court, and leave Alito with shit all over his face.

Show biz, not politics.

I would differ on your point that neither the Dems nor the Reps are able to govern only in the strict sense that they each pass laws that benefit their intended group which is the business monied elite. The only distinction between the two parties is that while the Dems try to justify why they pass anti-popular laws the Reps don’t bother.

I agree that we on the left should begin a challenge to Obama and that we should start to support Kucinich for president as of now for several reasons.

First is that DK clearly wants the presidency but for the right reason. Kucinich has a well defined set of political beliefs to which he adheres with conviction and he wants to see those principles enacted.

Secondly he has demonstrated already that he will not shirk to publicly defy and vote against Obama’s preferred Senate health bill.

Further DK is a viable candidate in that he holds a high elected office and is well versed in the workings of government. Supporting Kucinich now will also send a clear message to Obama that the left has given up on him and that he will not receive our votes again.

Obama can then be free to appeal to whom he likes.