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Remember all those wonderful list building exercises from Harry Reid and Dick Durbin last year? You know, the ones where they told you how much they supported the public option, and snagged your email in the process?
Because I sure do. Here was Durbin‘s:
The question is no longer if we will have some sort of public option in the final health care reform bill, but instead what form it will take.
[]
If any member of the Democratic caucus thinks no one will notice the absence of a robust public option in the final health care reform bill, they have another thing coming.
Harry Reid even had Google ads:
Want The Public Option?
Reid’s Fighting For It. What Have You Done To Help? Step Up Now!
HarryReid.com/PublicOption
Ah, memories. Well, that was then. From Roll Call:
Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said Wednesday that leaders will have to ask rank-and-file Democrats to vote against health care amendments they may support once a reconciliation bill comes to the Senate floor.
“We have to urge members to stick with the basic bill,” Durbin told reporters. “And we know Republicans are going to offer a ton of amendments as they always do and we know that if an amendment is adopted, it stops or slows down the process. We have to get this done and move on to more jobs bills.”
But Harry Reid doesn’t want to be left out of the party. Also from Roll Call:
Jim Manley, spokesman for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), said leaders will ask their Members to defeat popular amendments even though they sympathize with liberals’ desire to push proposals that, during last year’s Senate floor debate, did not have the 60 votes needed to overcome a filibuster. Reconciliation rules require only a 51-vote majority to prevail.
“Certainly there are plenty of Members who have ideas to improve the bill,” Manley said. “The difference is … Republicans will be offering amendments to take the bill down.”
I get it. Now that they don’t have the 60 vote excuse any more, it’s the REPUBLICAN amendments they really need to keep in check. Never mind that there aren’t 51 Republicans. As I recall, this was the same fabulous thinking that kept all amendments off the floor in the House bill — except Bart Stupak’s.
And if they have to kill student loan reform to do it, Durbin’s more than willing:
“If the addition of the student loan — ending the student loan subsidy to big banks and Sallie Mae — helps us pass health care reform it should be included. If it hurts us, then we can’t include it,” Durbin said.
Fuck you, kids. That $4.7 billion that was going to go to students and state funded colleges struggling to stay afloat? Well, Sallie Mae gets another private jet. Or golf course. You just have to wait until next year, when there’s another shot at reconciliation, since the lobbyists have bought off so many Senators already, and sadly, there just aren’t 60 votes.
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Keeey-rizt! This is leadership?
I’d love to help you son, but you’re too young to vote.
Sometimes I wonder what I’ma gonna do
Cuz there aint no cure for the summer time blues.
Could anything be more richly satisfying than seeing Harry Reid defeated in November?
Since the only hope Reid has of returning to the Senate next year hinges on the passage of a public option, you would think that he might at least have a moment on consciousness, or conscience even, and do the right thing. He seems strangely intent on political suicide, not only for himself but for the Democratic Party as well. Go figure, I guess there must be some money in it for him down the road. That’s the only logical explanation that I can think of…
They’ve moved from [edited by mod] to [edited by mod]. This is getting medieval, with the emphasis on the “evil” bit. I mean, truly, shafted in every direction and up and down. Wow! Modern American serfdom! It’s scary to behold.
[modnote: please avoid the violent imagery, thank you]
Is Bambi planning on breaking cover and running as a Rethug in 2012? Is he hoping to “realign” politics to a new 2 party system. Rethugs vs Teabaggers? He is that deluded, isn’t he? And he could carry at least half of the Democratic congresspigs with him. Are these noble senators preparing their pitch in this political transformation?
Something really foul is afoot here. It stinks to high heaven. Watch your backs.
Well, truthfully, the list is long, but unprintable….
point taken
Well, forget Durbin for Maj. Leader.
Durbin has his fans, but I am not one of them.
It’s obviously not news that politicians are hypocrites. But if people stop calling them on it, they can get away with anything no matter how outrageous. Thanks for keeping on this. Hard to believe health care “reform” has been going through the sausage factory for over a year now.
Yeah, I’d like to see Chuck Schumer stake out a position opposed to Reid and Durbin on this.
These health care ‘heroes’ advertisements online make me want to puke. Thanks for continuing to expose these chronic liars.
what has happened to this party?
we get to 40 Senators publicly for the public option…and the leadership pulls out the rug.
Harry Reid can go whistle for help in Nevada if he goes through with this.
No help from CA.
Chuckie is full of shit as well. His level playing field verion of the PO basically gutted the Real version. He’s another Ins. mafia shill in sheep’s clothing.
Let’s all not forget where the push to push aside a public option is coming from and that is the Obama Admin. C’mon, you’ve got 41 senators on record as favoring a public option via reconciliation but the supposed leaders of the Dem Caucus says ‘don’t do it’?
And mandates without any real competition for the insurance companies; as Jane said. that’s fascism.
The tea partiers comparison to Hitler are truly mistaken, it should have been Mussolini.
Worse than nothing HCR bill, actual nothing student loan bill. I’m certain the jobs bill will be just as good as the other two. Yay Dems, the peoples’ party.
But, but, but… Dick Durbin was our hero for speaking an emotionally satisfying platitude regarding Wall St. and Capitol Hill.
Rotating cast of villains. Say what you will about Congressional competence; they have this performance down pat.
i’d like to say this is unbelievable…..
Eddie, is that you?
Yes We Can
Now We Can’t
Its all the Republicans Fault
But Barack Obama runs the WH that struck the deals with AHIP and PhRMA
They said with more Democrats they could do the hard stuff
They got more Democrats — got the Senate — got the WH
Now they can’t do anything other than GOP Lite anyway
But it is the Republicans Fault
Is anyones BSometers going off like mine is?
Barack Obama wants AHIP to run his HCR while he attacks AHIP venality
Is anyones Fake Kabukiometers going off like mine is?
Markos and his Dkos Obamabots are coming out for Obama AHIP full force
Markos and his Dkos Obamabots attack Dennis Kucinich but not Blue Dogs
Is anyones StinkyPoliticsometers going off like mine is?
Yes We Can became Yes We Can’t and Barack Obama’s HCR is AHIP mole plan
But between here and November 2010 it will be blamed on the Republicans
My RealFailometer just went off the scale pass Crash and Burn Fail mark
I won’t blame the Republicans for that being so either
I will blame the Yes We Can But Decided Not To Democratic Party
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia
Capuano seems to be a ‘no’ vote on HCR. But the final whip hasn’t occurred.
JHFC.
that ‘rotating cast of villains’ piece (who was it wrote it?) is surely going to become the underground journalism classic of the decade. No one ever quite so brutally exposed the farce of an oligarchy that is the United States before. It describes perfectly, every action, utterance, and thought of these laughably corrupt clowns.
VA assembly just passed bill that the VA governor will sign making it illegal for mandates and Grayson introduced a bill to allow all to buy into Medicare; has 10 co-sponsors so far.
Don’t forget “tap-dancin’.”
Read my post at 6 in the list. Mine has exploded due to overload.
Calling the teaparty people teabaggers is funny because it degrades them by intonating upon them an oral/scrotal fetish.
This party is beyond help.
I recall during Senate Health Committee hearings the delaying tactics of Repuglicans flooding the committee with amendments addressing trivialities accompanied by time wasting speeches revealing only their profound mental impairments.
I feel like an Apache watching 2 white men fight over who’s gonna come after him.
Are we going to primary Reid or is it tolate for that now?
If it’s not to late and we aren’t, why aren’t we?
The rotating villains post was a class Glenn Greenwald. I am in love with that guy. But I’m also in love with Elizabeth Warren, so I guess that makes me the slippery polygamous slope the Prop 8′ers are afraid of.
This is total bullshit. They have to have some kind of reconciliation bill to go along as the sidecar with the Senate bill. They can put the damn public option in there and hey presto, no need to worry about amendments. Sounds like they are going to push for just passing the Senate bill on some kind of vague promise of fixing it later. If the House falls for that after Durbin just said it’s not going to happen and they need to hurry up and go on to jobs (in other words, can’t wait to see HCR in the rearview!), they all deserve to lose their jobs. If Obama thinks it will help him in 2012 to run against a Republican Congress, he’s crazy. He’ll still get nothing done because they can’t let their teabagger base see them being anything but nasty to that Nigerian interloper and he’ll just prove he’s incompetent whether he has a majority or a minority. Having passed HCR that didn’t do anything for anyone other than tax them out of their PPO’s for a couple of years isn’t going to win any voters over.
Nobody should be fooled, Durbin and Reid are carrying water for the White House on this. Obama has been, from the very beginning, staunchly opposed to the public option. He’s just keeping his hands clean, letting others do the dirty work for him.
I challenge anyone who thinks otherwise to document a case where Obama has done anything to promote the public option. And no, him saying a couple of sentences here and there when the truth gets too close to him does not count as support.
If Reid doesn’t include a robust public option and with Netroots Nation in Las Vegas this summer there’s an opportunity for hundreds if not a couple of thousand activist volunteers to hit the streets of Nevada to help defeat Reid while they are in the state.
Does anyone else think Mr. Yes We Can should maybe at least not piss off college students? Oh, right. He won’t need any of those small donations because he’ll have a hell of a war chest from the health care industries. Good thing, I guess, because he certainly won’t have all those small donations. Not to mention the number of boots on the ground he’s going to lose.
Obama is all about pretense and posture. He’s been a catastrophe for transformational health care reform in the U.S.. As Chris Hedges pointed out he’s nothing more than a product that’s been packaged and marketed to the American people.
Frankly, the lobbyists own durbin.
Z
durbin and reid are whores to big business!
and that is all you need to know about what will happen to reconciliation…it willnever happen and the scum at wellpoint will of gotten their $70 BILLION a year bailout and dems will never get another dime or vote from me. I can get fucked over by republicans without the heartache!
The Senate Parliamentarian has ruled the House must first pass the Senate bill — and the president must sign that bill into law — before reconciliation fixes to it can be considered.
As one of the wiseguys in the “Sopranos” show is fond of mimicking some mafioso in the “Godfather” movie, just when you think the Senate has run out of excuses for its bondage to banks, insurers and other types of gangsters, they somehow manage to get pulled back into their claws by coming up with some other lame excuse.
The Senate’s seeming illogic is partly the product of its own embarassment. We can’t continue to be seen as the totally inept and inertia bound group of lying bought off buffoons we actually are, they seem to be saying. We have to do something even if that something just happens to be a total unpopular, harmful and wasteful pile of crap.
The novel notion of passing legislation that contains meaningful and popular measures is just lost on them. Durbin normally a thoughtful enough guy has just embraced a thoroughly asine excuse for Senate inaction by capitulating on the Democrats’ majority staus. He just took a giant step into quicksand.
Yeah and the diseased Goat you rode in on ScrotMunchers!
Like all Dems, they were for _________ before they were against it. But hot damn, can’t those Dems give great speeches!
Durbin is going to join Reid in polling hell for this.
Yes We Can.
That doesn’t mean We’re Going To.
oh……my……….God………………You old sh*tstained asshats.
Jane, can you give us some phone numbers so THEY know that WE know what they are saying? Thanks for this!
OT..what’s wrong with FDL lately? It doesn’t work properly on Firefox, and on IE, it closes constantly…WTF? No other site is doing this on either of my browzers.
Toll-free Congress switchboard phone numbers, from (((((Katymine))))):
1 (800) 828 – 0498
1 (800) 459 – 1887
1 (800) 614 – 2803
1 (866) 340 – 9281
1 (866) 338 – 1015
1 (877) 851 – 6437
Thanks! And I hope a bunch of other people join me in these phone calls!!!(if you’re reading this, I mean YOU!)
I’ve been saying for quite some time now, as the PO hot potato was getting thrown around that Reid was going to be the one to kill it. And voila.
He’s got the big pharma backing, the big corporate wall street backing, the big bankers backing, and the rich people’s backing. He doesn’t need those stinking peasants next time. Besides, he’s not getting re-elected. This man is toast! Let’s just hope the Rethuglicans have the audacity to pick someone that is no further Repub than Obama.
Oceania is at war with Eurasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia
I’m having the same problem. Thought it was my computer which spent a night in the hospital recently, but if you’re having the same problem (and it isn’t happening on other sites I frequent, it is probably a FDL problem.
Has anyone ever tried to explain to Obama that there are no great, one-term presidents! At least, not as far as elections were concerned.
The Senate should be abolished. In a better world, it would be possible to do that. It’s just an old rich guys club that exists to “protect the rights of the minority” which is code for “protect the wealthy minority against the public”.
Well I’m glad it isn’t just me then…..and it only happens on FDL. Something is wrong on this site. Really goes crazy on Attackerman’s diaries.
Source: The Republicans…who didn’t get it in writing, it seems. Your credulousness may very.
He isn’t even going to be a great one term Prez. He’s going to be a footnote in history. Rode to Washington on a wave of populism and decided he wanted to switch parties once there.
I’m hoping for Ron Paul and I never thought I’d say that. Some neighbors were huge Ron Paul fans in the 2008 primaries. They said that he had always been the same and you knew exactly where he honestly stood on things. I replied that was admirable, but not all that helpful when where he has always stood was not where I stood. That was before getting the financial titans under control and stopping the wedding of corp and state became by far my biggest issues when they weren’t even really on the radar during that primary conversation. Sure, credit cards are a mess and the mortgage situation isn’t looking good and lobbyists always get more out of government than they should, but… Now I’m terrified of horrific consequences if we don’t get the banks, the lobbyists and our war spending under control and the only person I can think of to even try hard on that is Paul. Kucinich would probably do it if he could, but the same people who torched him for taking a stand on a horribly unpopular bill won’t hesitate to make sure he doesn’t “spoil” Obama’s reelection. There will be no primary challenger and we shouldn’t be kidding ourselves. Even if someone had the balls, with where even the so-called progressives have gone with this HCR tells me I couldn’t trust them not to cave either to money or to the threats of the day once in the White House.
So, RON PAUL 2012!
Correct if I’m wrong, but if the House passes a bill with a public option and sends it to the Senate, why would it need to be amended?
Absolutely not. I cannot wait for election night to savor his loss.
“I’d rather have a Klansman in white in front of me than a white liberal behind me.”
Malcolm X
I was having problems putting a diary together yesterday. The Copy function in edit quit halfway through the diary it was working fine on Pages though.
Horrifying and true at the same time….
Harry, Dick, and Chuck, they are pieces of work aren’t they? As long as they didnt have 60 votes they were for a public option, now that they dont need 60 votes, they have decided it is not that important. This is what democrats do, they talk the talk and bounce on you when it is time to walk the walk. However, the bright side is once the Obama bill gets passed we are going to lose a lot of demorats and maybe if we are really lucky we’ll lose Obama in 2012. This purge of demorats cld leave some positions wide open for real progressives.
FWIW, I’m using Firefox on a Mac and the last few days I’ve consistently run into a situation where it freezes or slows waaaay down when I try to scroll down a list of comments or browse the feature stories on the main page, the news page, etc.
Mods and techies: Help?
Ron will deregulate industry the Banking Crisis as caused by deregulation and low interest rates. Ron is the parent who says kids learn not to eat until they puke by letting them over eat.
Kids like Banks however don’t have much self control so unless we like cleaning up puke its time for a responsible Parent to just say thats enough.
Ron’s I would let the banks fail idea assumes that the bankers are teens not kids.
But what is unregulated Capitalism but the childish need to eat and keep eating.
I haven’t been on often enough to notice whether it’s worse on some parts of FDL vs. other parts.
About 3/4 can of WD-40 should do the trick. And maybe some duct tape, just for good measure…
That’s not what I hear. He wants to audit the fed, and maybe abolish it. He would prefer deregulation in general, but he was on one of the MSNBC shows talking about how now that we have this mess, we need to break up the banks because when they are that big they take out too much with them when you let them go down.
Who do you think is going to do anything about any of our messes? I kind of wish I were Sarah Palin right now and could tell myself the Rapture was going to come take care of it all for me.
I really wish we could stop using “whipping” as a stand-alone verb in this context. Every time I see a FDL blog entry or similar saying “[So-and-so] whipping for [blah]” I get the old 1980′s pop song “Whip It!” stuck in my head for minutes. Please make it stop. Please stop using this term, at least with such frequency.
Thank you for getting my heart started again…
These guys are painting targets on their scum filled meat bags. Their constituents aren’t going to take it.
May any of you senators that oppose our will just drop fucking dead?
[Mod Note: and let's not go any further down this path, OK?]
This link has probably already been put up, but just in case. Very cogent explication. After listening to it, the first thing that came to my mind (such as it is) was just how stupid and/or whorish Markos looks when banging the drum for the bill. Hey Kos. You should probably back up just a bit. You’re way out of your league.
Have you upgraded to Firefox 3.6?
I remember when my idea of a great senator was Dick Durbin.
We’re an unfortunate society. Fewer and fewer co-western countries envy us for anything.
A tiny percent of bastards in “America” have absolute power. The power they have is endlessly provided to them by the huge percent of people who have NO power: us. Technically, just like Idi Amin’s Uganda; literally, very similar to Saudi Arabia (and getting more-so fast).
We’re supposed to love being American because we’re on the lucky, receiving end of cheap goods, with our children wearing the shoes, not making them.
America is unweildy, too big and wobblesome, for any of its far-flung parts to pull its other parts together so it can take charge of itself and gradually wrest power from the tightly coalesced one-percent, our prices.
We’re in the clutches of da debil. Try all you want to wiggle free.
Fuck. Made me cry.
how bout kabuki while you are at it, talk about over-used. . .
Alternet reports that Bernie Sanders is going to introduce a Public Option amendment in reconciliation debate.
Are you hoping that Ron Paul is the reincarnation of TR? I keep hearing people bad mouth him with vague generalities but every time I see him interviewed he sounds perfectly reasonable. It’s a little confusing but as a progressive civil libertarian I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until I can verify that he is really as whacked out as his critics claim.
Did I hear Ron Paul? Oh God. For myself, I don’t even want his son, Ayn Paul, to win a seat in congress/senate or whatever that is he’s slavering for.
Jesse Ventura is literal perfection, but he would never do it. Besides, Jesse Ventura is a cartoon. When you hear his name, don’t forget to laugh. It’s the LAW.
Like flying saucer. HAHAHAHA!
Thank you.
Wonder what our do the right thing, self righteous progressives on MSNBC are going to say about Durbin, Reid, and Conrad?
Ed and Rachel loved beating up on Bart Stupak, Messa, etc. now it is time to beat up on Conrad, Durbin, and Reid.
The Glenn Greenwald article the other day told progressives the ugly truth, a lot of congress people who call themselves Democrats are not Democrats, they are really right wing REPUBLICANS.
How dumb is Harry Reid? these clowns are starting to make Sarah Palin look like Brain Surgeon
Audit the Fed I am for. Deregulation however is what caused the Banking Crisis and the Great Depression. I am for breaking up the banks.
We are, we right here, right now and either we win or there will be another collapse Commercial Real estate Market, Credit Default Swaps, Stock Market Collapse, whatever their are to many potential dangers to keep track of
Why will this happen because there is no government regulation. Because without regulation the Banks won’t stop gamboling.
Think of the Banks as drug addicts the banking crisis was an overdose rationally after such an experience many people would think the addict would quit.
The addict is not rational though.
Seconded
No corrections? Ron Paul fever taking over? (Count me out, he’s a hard core libertarian, and as a person in the non-profit charity sector I know that these types do NOT believe in any government help for the less fortunate.)
Anyway, did many here get suckered by Durbin’s comments so badly that no one considers that this “Republican amendment” issue is a non-starter if a complete and well-crafted public option bill is sent to the Senate by the House in the first place? Come on, if I am wrong I’ll gladly move on…
Tom
The electoral process is officially DEAD. If you aren’t convinced by now, you’re just not paying attention, or else you’re just too emotionally invested in your history of participation to be able to acknowledge the extent to which you have been duped. And we haven’t even had the pleasure yet of living through an election cycle where the corporate spending gloves will be completely off, courtey of the Catholic Mafia at the Supreme Court.
So, where are we as progressives, or even libertarians? I say we have arrived at a point of clarity, where each must decide whether he/she thinks enough of him/herself to do whatever is in our power to bring down this festering pile of corruption that is the system as we know it, so that we as a people can start over according to first principles, namely those that accord with humanism and natural law.
Because the only real alternative we have is to accept the proposition that our oppressors, those who are allied with the Big Corporations, are so far superior to us that we deserve to be treated like cattle.
yea it’s all ka. . .ka. ..ka. . .bullshit!
Get In Their Face(book) !
go on over to Senator Dustbin’s Facebook Page and call him on it !
click on “become a fan” (don’t worry, you can un-fan yourself later)
see ya there :D
He did vote against the 2002 war resolution
princes
(Yachts, sex slaves of any age, cocaine, truck wit’ da debil)
Safe vote.
“The addict is not rational.”
Neither are the electoral/legislative process addicts, it would appear.
I predict the Moderators will have their hands full keeping the cap on the rhetoric going forward.
I’ll always remember him as Reid’s surly, brutish enforcer in Denver – going after FDL simply because we had the temerity to question keeping Lieberman in his Chairmanship
Any public option that DID get into the bill would be like none or worse, that’s a guarantee, yet if it got in, they’d be able to say we got our public option, why don’t we go somewhere and STFU now.
We should be clammoring for what we really want, since we’re clearly not getting anything no matter what, and boycot the laughable likes of Ed Schultz and Rachel Maddow. Never mind, the majority of us are, sorry, especially “I’m with the prez on escalation in Afghanistan” Ed Schultz.
Guess it’s about time to get Lost In the Ozone Again
I think it may be time to stop characterizing Democrats as weak and excusing them for maintaining the status quo simply because they are cowards. You are right as rain, this constant cave is a role they have perfected over the years as they fill their coffers with lobbyist money and perks. They have betrayed the left in this country and have been the leading force behind marginalizing liberal policies. Interestingly, they think that all they have to do is get past health care by slicking through this atrocity of a health insurance reform bill and all will be forgotten and they will maneuver themselves into a favorable position for re-election. I don’t think so.
Not that you want to pile on and contribute to their work or anything right?
True are group minds Governments, Corporations, Blogs all growing up at the same time can they grow up? Or must each generation relearn the lessons of the past.
MSNBC has officially been captured by the Obama Administration in regards to health care. Ed proselytizes most fervently, but Rachel is also towing the line. Keith is using his fathers illness to stay away while Lawrence O’donell trashes Kucinich along with party operative Kos. How do you like being rolled by General Electric as well as the others?
The first thing that has to be done is get the K-STREETERS out of the House and Senate and the Head Shead as well. Next have tax payer financing for elections. No more million or in some cases hundreds of millions of dollars for campaigns. Next shorten term limits THREE YEARS for all. Many of these BUNNHOLES come to D.C. with their hand out and the LOBBYISTS (ex-
congressmen & staffers) are right there to fill it with money.
That’s the one, that’s it right there. That’s what makes a left wing dittohead.
Of the many forms of invisible bondage, this one may be strongest. Hard to confront the fact, but the first knot to untie is EGO and then the ties come undone and you’re free.
Sorry no tv here I have not been keeping up. Still I like the idea of going after Durbin and Reid.
That’s why religion is so popular. It provides both the legitimization of the power structure while simultaneously holding out the hope that the omniscient being will deliver the poor from this earthly hell, in time. That is, once their usefulness is sucked completely out of them. “The loser now will be later to win”, in Bob Dylan’s former dreams anyway.
You can podcast them if you want to waste your time with their pap. I’m in favor of going after the entire Democratic delegation in the Senate for starts, they are all odious.
Obama has proved himself to be nothing but a shill for Wall Street, Pharma, the insurance industry and corporate America in general. He won in Nov, 2008 because pf campaign pledges to be a transformative president bit since he took office I fail to see the transformation. All that I see is more of the same.
Funny you should ask. Just a couple of days ago, on one of the posts about Liz Cheney, I “wished” they could be [Edited by Mod] so they would do no further harm to innocent people, and was admonished by the Mod that it was “inappropriate” for me to wish that “ill” would befall anyone.
If the standard now is that we must wish that monsters should live forever and be strong and healhy so they can keep ruining and ending the lives of decent people, then the Mods deserve to have their hands full going forward. How can we rationally discuss the present situation without ever violating that standard?
You are an insider here. Maybe you could do something about having the Mods explain their guidelines and justify them on some rational basis. Pretending we can be all nicey-nice when dealing with fascists is an insult to the intelligence of many of us here.
Thanks for the idea but I get better news here.
Might be construed as a death threat anything along that line will be moderated however feel free to to call Liz evil stupid and ugly.
I’m not an insider; I just happen to read here a lot. As far as I know, the “rules” such as they are have never been presented formally
But you are being a bit disingenuous since you have claimed to be a reader and commenter here from the beginning then you should recognize that from the very beginning at FDL, there have been cautions against wishing ill on others.
Or would you prefer that FDL operate like the sites where folks think threatening or wishing ill on others is the way to gain adherents? Because karmically speaking wishing for some evil to befell others is not considered a positive thing, no matter how you spin it. And not wishing ill to befall others is not the same as hoping evil lives long lives.
Well, that’s why I can’t buy into any organized religion. If there is an afterlife, I’ve lived in a way that should get me in the Gate. But since there is no guarantee, I live as though this is all I get. No one will save me if I am not willing to fight to save myself. So, it sometimes just comes down to, do I think I am worth fighting for?
Stupid and whorish. And a face for radio, but a voice for the typewriter, and a mind for going “arf! arf!”
The Ministry Of Truth says that Senators Durbin and Reid have always been opposed to, and have never been in favor of the public option.
I stand corrected.
My memory isn’t what it used to be.
Rank and file democrats?
More like a defiled and rank congress!
I just called Durbin and Reid’s offices. I asked why they continue to stab in the back the people who elected them and why they can’t for once not.I pointed out that maybe they think they have to cover for Obama who probably made a deal with the insurance industry to keep the PO out of the bill,but they are going to get blown out in November election if they don’t vote for the public option. I said this is the last straw and I asked if the democrats understand this. The phone guy said they understand.
I gotta say that, on reflection, I suspect Durbin’s call for Senate Dems to vote against a public option amend to the reconciliation fix might actually be good news.
Why?
Well, keep in mind that the establishment has been screaming its head off for weeks about how the public option “doesn’t have sufficient support” in the Senate. Well, if that were truly the case, why would Durbin suddenly be telling Senate Dems who support the PO to vote against it? It’s obvious, to me anyway, that they’ve suddenly realized that the PO REALLY COULD PASS in the Senate.
In addition, as someone on Kos, I believe, pointed out, the HOUSE gets to vote first on reconciliation. If the House can be convinced that there are enough votes in the Senate to pass PO through reconciliation, then the House could very well put the PO into ITS OWN reconciliation fix. At that point, by Durbin’s own logic that Senate amendments will queer the simultaneous dance that the House and the Senate must dance on reconciliation, the Senate will be under enormous pressure to pass the House reconciliation fix, NOW WITH A PUBLIC OPTION, unchanged in the Senate!!!
I’m really starting to think this Durbin crap could signal really good things ahead. Am I missing something?
They understand it in their heads but not their hearts.
Which means they don’t really understand and won’t until after the fact.
And to Things Come Undone #10.
Look, you concede the policy has never been laid out formally. That is my perception as well. I also perceive that there are great variations in what is permitted at various times, and, perhaps, of various commenters.
I have no disagreement that we must stay on the legal side of things. My understanding is that that line is the direct advocating or inciting of violence. Wishing that someone could [Edited by Moderator.] VERY far from that line. Consider what right wing blogs get away with saying, also without crossing the legal line.
An over-nice degree of self-restraint helps nothing, we are involved in what all know is dirty business, the business of power. I’d like to make the world safe for such admirable ideals as never thinking negative thoughts, but first we have a huge mess to clean up, one that was created, in part, by the overly passive attitude of people like us for the last few decades. If we are to be completely honest abaout it. We have become what Jews were considered to be in my childhood, people who would never hit back. Our enemies count on that. It’s time we found ways to surprise them, as I used to have to do with the bullies in my neighborhood when I was growing up. Your nice thoughts don’t work with bullies.
[Mod Note: No it is NOT very far from that line. You have been warned repeatedly. You are now on thin ice that is about to break]
“Wishing that someone could be euthanized is VERY far from that line”
I strongly disagree and wish that you would stop continually bringing it up!
Some real winners hangin around here these days.
I’m missing something here. Why would a public option have to be an AMENDMENT to the reconciliation bill? Why wouldn’t it be included in the bill? Who is writing the reconciliation bill? If the votes are there to pass the public option (and we all seem to think they are), the sensible thing is to write it in, along with whatever gets negotiated on abortion. And then, yes, it’s reasonable to ask everyone not to offer any amendments.
I’m hoping Jane or someone can address this. Surely if we have been whipping the vote via the Bennet letter, we must be involved in the writing of the reconciliation bill itself. It can’t be coming from the Obama Administration; it’s a Senate bill!
How many times have they had the lunatic rants of Kos?
IIRC, we’ve had this conversation before. My guess is that the PTB at FDL do not want to lay out specific lines specifically to stop folks like yourself who would spend all day seeing just how close to the edge things could be pushed.
Of course if you really are troubled by it, you can always set up your own blog and rant to your heart’s content
That’s right, if it ain’t the lake it ain’t jake.
I don’t get what the big deal is. Kids in Asia are perfectly fine respectable people.
It is raining cognitive infiltration.
Try this
To the Moderator: Wishing is very far from doing or advocating. E.g., I wish I had won MegaMillions last week, but I’m still worried about paying my bills. If Hitler were still in power, and I “wished” he would have a heart attack and die, would you have the same reaction?
I have no wish to be banned from commenting again, so I’ll desist, but I really do wish you and the other Mods would at least lay out what the exact guidelines are. I sincerely believe we must be considering more militant actions of various sorts if we want to save our country, and even civil disobedience is illegal. Must we all be pacifists to participate here? This is a sincere question.
It’s truly amazing how people who write so well can be [Edited by Moderator. Just attack the argument, please].
Do you seriously believe that civil disobedience of the type you seem to want could be organized from somewhere like FDL? Do you think FDL is not monitored by the national PTB, even with BushCo out of office?
Or do you think things were planned and run in the public rooms and street corners of the various taverns back in colonial days? Because that’s the role FDL fulfills in a virtual fashion.
And notwithstanding some of your comments, I do not think you are that obtuse.
Stupid, maybe but obtuse. . . .
No, I’m not interested in testing lines, I’m intereted in changing the way
this country is. In our prior disagreement, you erroneously assumed I was advocating far beyond what my position actually was. I actually left an explanatory comment at the end of that thread, trying to mkae peace with you, but I don’t think you read it, even though I tipped you to it the next time I saw you on a different thread. I just think we need to have a more far-ranging conversation than we are having.
And I come here because I have great respect for the collecctive brainpower and dedication of the various participants here.
Alan1tx says, “The Senate Parliamentarian has ruled the House must first pass the Senate bill — and the president must sign that bill into law — before reconciliation fixes to it can be considered.”
If that’s true (and I trust it is), then House Democrats would be nuts to agree to this whole thing unless Senate Dems can show them the reconciliation bill and promise them there will be no amendments. The only way this works is if the public option is included in the reconciliation bill BEFORE it comes to the floor. So Durbin is right to ask senators not to vote any amendments. The whole question is, what is stopping the public option from being included in the reconciliation bill being written?
Well, more like willfully obtuse.
Let his mouth get him into something his ass can’t get him out of.
You are too kind as always.
Well, I can understand it since I’ve let my alligator mouth overload my hummingbird ass more than a few times over the decades (although not as much as when I was younger)
One reason I’ve been scarce.
Thank you, dakine; a very articulate explanation.
And thanks for your subsequent comments as well.
Thanks too, to the mods.
No, I’m not obtuse, but I do want results beyond what we are getting.
And I understand fully that nothing can be ORGANIZED anymore, thanks to the Patriot Act and modern surveillance technology. But I don’t think they can stop us from airing ideas and using our minds independently, at least not yet.
And Raven, I’ve frequently thought you were [Edited by Moderator. Just attack the argument, please], but have refrained from saying so. Show some gratitude.
Is that anything like “let his alligator mouth overload his hummingbird ass?”
say what you want punk
Well, shit, I owe ya one.
dakine say dat
Essentially, that is what (I think) Durbin’s aide just told me on the phone when I blasted him about the PO. I don’t understand.
In polite company, Razorburn you can say what’s really on your mind. I’m sure people on this site do. But let’s face it–the State (any State) is pretty violent and amoral. Our wonderful NSA is probably watching everything we are doing with Echelon in full gear. So a public forum may not be the best place to air out your real thoughts.
Please stop playing with the two-year old.
duh
I know it’s obvious–but some folks don’t always get it. (No offense to you, Razorburn.)
heh bunch of us could be history in a blink.
yea, well I’m sure the NSA would read the ridiculous explanation of the violent comment and say, “oh, ok, the idiot didn’t mean it”.
fear the blogger
The way things are going in this country–with Obummer basically being a Mafia hit man whenever he wants–I wouldn’t rule out anything.
This seems as good a time as any to bring in The Fools
Chicken is as chicken does. Think about it.
No offense taken, reaganrevolution.
Maybe you guys should read up on the law a little. Liberty that you are afraid to use is no liberty at all.
I like this train of thought better.
We need to look at this situation from at least two perspectives. First, what is the final bill, if any, going to look like. I really hope the bill fails because of the individual mandate, which will set back health care delivery by decades, if not forever. So, as to this problem, I’m not too excited by this backstabbing by Durbin, Reid, and others.
The second perspective is that this backstabbing should outrage us because it is more Charlie Brown, Lucy, and football stuff. Do these guys really take us for total fools? Don’t answer that! They do, because whatever they do, we just take their BS and support them when election time rolls around. We must stop this. No more veal pen!
I just really would like to know what it is that AHIP has on these folks to keep them from supporting a PO given the cost control, popular support and fascism mitigation features.
Seriously, can it really be as simple as some extra campaign contributions?
Barack “there aren’t enough votes, but just in case there are enough, I’ll make sure to avoid asking” Obama is driving me up a wall.
How bout some hillbilly? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx9p1U6buyg
Can’t go wrong with some good ol’ ‘grass.
who is this fucking keyboard commando?
If the public option was added by the House to the actual bill, then the whole bill would have to be sent back to the Senate, referred to committee, and a months-long process would have to take place all over again. For the House to put the public option in the bill itself is a complete non-starter, and would destroy the whole enterprise.
On the other hand, what the House puts into the reconciliation fix for the bill itself is an entirely different matter. For example, should the House be convinced that the Senate has the votes to put the public option in the reconciliation fix, then there is nothing to prevent the House from also putting it in their reconciliation version. At that point, the Senate would have little choice but to either pass the House fix intact or simply refuse to pass any reconciliation fix at all.
Could the Senate actually refuse to pass the House fix for whatever reason? Sure, which is what’s keeping Nancy Pelosi up nights these days. But that would be an incredible breach of trust that would virtually destroy any chance that Reid and Pelosi could ever work together on anything ever again. It would guarantee paralysis for the rest of the year. That is why the Senate would almost certainly have to swallow the House fix whole.
Which is precisely why it is so important that we get those additional nine Senate votes onto PO through reconciliation within the next few days. That way the odds that the House version of the reconciliation fix will include the PO shoots through the roof.
Active imagination.
From Hawaii or Columbia?
Who knows? Claims to have been hanging out and commenting at FDL back to the beginnings but never IDs what name he may have previously used.
Hawai’i of course (why do you think I chose the nom de blog I did?)
I’m still shaking my head about Marcus Kos dissing Kucinich. Folks, we don’t have a real left in this country. Not even the so-called progressives are really progressive. Matt Yagless is even a pod. Where are the real leftists fighting the good fight?
[resubmitted because the system destroyed all paragraph divisions in my previous posting after I finished editing it.]
If the public option was added by the House to the actual bill, then the whole bill would have to be sent back to the Senate, referred to committee, and a months-long process would have to take place all over again. For the House to put the public option in the bill itself is a complete non-starter, and would destroy the whole enterprise.
On the other hand, what the House puts into the reconciliation fix for the bill itself is an entirely different matter. For example, should the House be convinced that the Senate has the votes to put the public option in the reconciliation fix, then there is nothing to prevent the House from also putting it in their reconciliation version. At that point, the Senate would have little choice but to either pass the House fix intact or simply refuse to pass any reconciliation fix at all.
Could the Senate actually refuse to pass the House fix for whatever reason? Sure, which is what’s keeping Nancy Pelosi up nights these days. But that would be an incredible breach of trust that would virtually destroy any chance that Reid and Pelosi could ever work together on anything ever again. It would guarantee paralysis for the rest of the year. That is why the Senate would almost certainly have to swallow the House fix whole.
Which is precisely why it is so important that we get those additional nine Senate votes onto PO through reconciliation within the next few days. That way the odds that the House version of the reconciliation fix will include the PO shoots through the roof.
I like old grass (Bill Monroe) and New Grass. But grass by itself will always give you the munchies.
I prefer Vietnamese and Thai, meself, but cain’t get da shit no mo.
Whoa. Bad juju.
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/harry-reids-wife-and-daughter-hospitalized-after-car-accident.php?ref=fpb
I’d imagine we have myriad definitions amongst those who refer to themselves as progressive. Those of us on the “far left” aren’t as numerous as we’d like to be but we’re workin’ on it. Finance capitalism is gonna get a lot of folks’ attention in the next couple years.
The paragraph destruction only resides in your browser after you edit, looks fine to the rest of us.
“Could the Senate actually refuse to pass the House fix for whatever reason? Sure, which is what’s keeping Nancy Pelosi up nights these days.”
I think this is the likely outcome if anything the insurance companies don’t like is in the rec bill, actually.
Trust is just a word to these people.
bela
And once the edit is complete, refresh the browser and it usually clears things up and restores all formatitng to what you had
I was spoiled just a bit during my time in the islands…
It’s a feature not a bug!
There are definitely some socialists and libertarian socialists on this site. We’re in a time when people are reassessing their political leanings because the failure of capitalism–and, dare I say, liberal democracy. In my case, I’m with the libertarian socialists.
Yeah, I’ll bet. And at a reasonable price no doubt.
And some people did that reassessment in 1971 and decided it was, indeed, all bullshit.
Well that would be relative. Prices then ran $120 – $220 depending on the quality.
The “GI Special” was 3 grams for $20 which was usually good for 10 bones.
I’m looking for a ‘Non Lying-Sack-of-Shit-Scumbag Party’ myself.
Well, that’s 2 of us outed so far. *g* I’m a firm believer in taking things that work and building a viable system with them. The analogy I like to use is the scene in “The Good, The Bad…” where Eli Wallach is in the general store and uses parts of various pistols to assemble one he likes. As far as being labeled, blind faith in anything will get ya killed.
No we are better than that we restrain ourselves Death Threats on Righty blogs may excite the GOP base but they scare away Moderate Voters they scare away Dark People, Gays. Atheists etc.
We Also don’t need lies to make our points unlike the GOP. We choose to not use our Liberty to be worse than animals we choose restraint because we care. But make no mistake we do fight back.
I looked for but couldn’t find a YouTube of The Fools “World Dance Party”
I don’t know why you guys are so intent on questioning my credentials as an authentic Firepup. If my arguments make you uncomfortable, deal with them, but questioning who I am is just unworthy ad hominem, that reveals nothing so much as the weakness of your own positions.
If you are truly curious, I started here about six years ago, using my full real name, as I was new to the whole online thing. My first name is Toby. Later, I started using megafeet. The last time FDL reorganized its infobase, I decided to use razorbrain, meaning I am intent on cutting through the bullshit and getting to the essence of what is actually in front of me, even and especially if that reality is an unpleasant one.
I am a lawyer who never lost a case, have a top 1% IQ, studied psychology (double major) and political science in college, Phi Beta Kappa. I have always been fervent about the issues I argue about here, and have actaully studied them in formal settings. I am also half-Jewish, born in the aftermath of Hitler, and spent much time in my youth wondering why the Germans let what happened to them happen to them. So, perhaps you can now understand my frustration that we seem to be doing the same thing here, even though I’ve seen fascism coming for 40 years.
Ha, ha. Well, I haven’t given up hope (to use a hackneyed word). The problem is lack of idealism. They’ve worn us out. That’s what they want! Especially the Pope of Hope himself, who hates idealism.
Very nice. Fighting back is good. Do you ever win?
I haven’t lost my idealism. I’ve tempered it with reality since VN but I haven’t lost it.
Win at all cost?
Well for someone who has been around FDL for 6 years, you sure do act like you just walked in the door and discovered the place a few months ago.
Either that, or you just haven’t been paying a bit of attention to folks at all
We are a community and we choose what language is acceptable. Your arguments for more violent language we don’t buy. And nope we don’t need it after all we are the GOP’s real opposition not the Blue Dog Dems, we have majority support for our ideas not the GOP not the Blue Dog Dems it might not look like it now but we are wining..
I still say the hippies had it right. The right wing made it uncool to be a hippie, and some of the old hippies adopted the right wing ideas (sadly). Obama is an example of a virulent anti-hippie neoliberal. That’s why he hates people with ideals. I knew he sucked when he dissed the Sixties. That told you right there that the guy was just a corporate tool.
I’ve been paying attention. I read every post here, every day. And I’ve seen a lot of sincere, well-intentioned hard work come to nothing. And I’d like for us to be more effective at securing this country for the People than we have been. And I don’t have the answers, but am only searching for them, and would rather view everyone here as comrades and collaborators than adversaries. Wwe may disagree on tactics, but we all want the same results.
Ask George Allen Bloggers pushed the Macaca Story and wrecked his chances of running for President.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Allen_(U.S._politician)
Ask Trent Lott if we win
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Lott#Resignation
“bela”
Now you’re speaking my language. I think I’ve got just about everything he’s ever put out…and I ain’t talkin’ Bartok!
I wish you were right that we are winning, but I think we both know that the opinion of the people means nothing to those who really have the power. How to get that power away from them is all that really matters, all that will change things for the better. Polite conversation feels good and makes us feel oh-so-superior, but they still have their feet on our necks, and the next generation will have it even worse if we fail.
Oh, my, where to begin…
Do please point us to the Democratic-majority standing Senate (or House) committee that is presently drafting a piece of health care reform reconciliation legislation in public, anywhere in Washington, D.C., jccayford.
I’ll wait…
Couldn’t find one? Now, I wonder why that could be…? Any idea? Any idea at all?
I’ll give you a hint:
This legislation – as we have been told in public repeatedly by the media, and by the President himself – is “Obama’s” health care bill.
That, it turns out, is not just a convenient turn of phrase – it’s a modern reality of D.C., however much the Congress pretended, and is still pretending, to be writing this legislation itself [which at least made for a compelling and touching storyline, didn't it, after the HillaryCare fiasco?]. I compiled a few details to illustrate how that elaborate hoax is perpetrated on the American people in a Seminal diary here a while back.
The same intentionally-deceiving methods are now actively in play – as evidenced by this post – with regard to reconciliation and the shut-down of legislative process that Reid and Durbin, on Obama’s behalf, desire and will abuse their power to achieve, as were in play during the fraudulent floor “debate and amendment” of the Senate health care bill both before and after the Reid Managers’ Amendment – concocted completely behind closed doors by Reid and…unidentified others… – was foisted on the Senate for its rubberstamping (repeatedly at 1 o’clock in the morning and on Christmas Eve). [Jay Rockefeller: NO changes - despite bipartisan supermajority Senate support for things like the Dorgan drug reimportation amendment - can be permitted to this product delivered from on-high, or the 60 vote "deal" will shatter..., etc., etc.]
Disagree with this naked suppression of the self-governing democratic process of our Legislative Branch of government, that enforces, with brute Party power, Executive Branch policy dictates (issued to Congressional leaders in private)? Welcome to the (violent disagreement) club.
Can you answer your own questions now?
1. A public option does not “have to be” an amendment to the Senate reconciliation bill. [But Bernie Sanders will again happily play the foil for Obama and Reid, by pretending that the mere offering of a good but doomed-to-fail - on Party orders (again see Dorgan's drug reimportation amendment) - public option amendment during reconciliation is the same as passage of the good amendment's policy either in the underlying legislation or by amendment to that legislation. Confident (and probably rightfully so) that most of us will gullibly cheer earnest, good-hearted Bernie on for doing all that he can (to help the White House and the leadership of the Democratic Party, of which Bernie claims not to be a member, to avoid any meaningful consequences for the deceit they're perpetrating on the American public...).]
2. Because President Obama doesn’t want the public option in the bill. [And the Democratic and Republican Parties march in lockstep behind their Party leaders in Congress when told (or threatened with the withholding of campaign funding) to do so, and those leaders take their orders from the White House when the President is of the same Party.]
3. The White House (the Emanuel Brothers and their friends) is writing the reconciliation bill in private, in consultation with Democratic Party corporate funders who have a dog in this fight (self-interest in the legislation at issue).
What has changed as a result of any of that?
Also interesting that Reid’s wife and daughter were seriously injured from a rear end accident today. Reid left the hospital to meet with rahm emmanuel.
Career politicians like tom harkin just quitting . This is not looking good.
We were right about the war, We were right about Bush and Greenspan lowering interest rates and creating the housing bubble.
Heck FDL and the Unions are the reason why the Public Option polls better than Obama’s Healthcare plan the MSM certainly never covered that story.
Jane’s Townhall finder made it easy for us to go to Town Halls the Tea Baggers plan to scare away people by showing up at TownHalls was thwarted.
Also we did help send the first African American to the WH. Granted that seems like a mistake now but it is a very big accomplishment none the less.
Since it looks like my first comment posted @ 198 despite indications at this end that it didn’t, I deleted this double-posting, on edit.
[Aside to selise - any luck?]
Please don’t encourage this one any further, he’s obviously just looking for attention. The fact is that this is not a public forum, it is private, hence the registration and login required to comment. Our constitutionally protected freedom of speech applies only to public forums which is why the moderators have the last say around here.
The fact that some people can’t understand this says more about their ignorance than any witty response we might come up with. If he can’t communicate without threats of violence, and yes involuntary euthanasia is murder, then the dude has a very limited vocabulary and no imagination to speak of. Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent!
I think the best chance we have is to build a movement for single payer is in the states. The federal gov’t is useless.
It’s starting to sound like a damn Grisham novel, and not one of the old ones when he used to be good and they had endings that made the story worthwhile.
How to get power? Well we don’t give up. We make ourselves invulnerable and wait for our opponents moment of vulnerability. ( Sun Tzu )There will be another Financial Crisis we know this because the Bankers won’t stop gamboling and sooner or later they will lose again.
Very well said I’m done.
ufo tofu
whoop-tee-fucking doo, it has credentials
You do not know much about hippies.
No. The wingnuts have no ability to make anything uncool, because they are not cool. They are opposed to freedom, other than packing heat.
Just a few, Norm Coleman and Dennis Hopper.
Really. Are you certain. I do not get those vibes. There are too many virulent pro-torture and pro-assassination neo-cons on television and the radio. Obama hardly compares with the Cheney’s, Glen Beck, drug addled Rush, Baron and Lady de Rothschild, Hank Paulson…Obama is merely weak and indecisive.
I always liked that palindrome and the Flecktone project as well. I first saw these guys on a PBS Lonesome Pine special, which is where they first performed together I believe and since then have collected all of his early bluegrass work and his later jazz, classical and folk. If I’m missing anything then I just don’t know about it. If you check out his web site he’s now offering music directly to the public in the form of an appendage to the Throw Down Your Heart Africa Sessions…
Thanks for the reference, you got me all worked up!
How bout the Seldom Scene, Tony Rice, Edgar Meyer. . ..
Ever hear Johnny Statts?
I rest my case
I just ordered the Telluride Sessions CD and have seen him with Edgar Meyer like three or four times now. I’ve probably seen him live about eight or ten times, every time he comes around wherever I happen to be at. Thanks for the Tony Rice and Seldom Scene mentions though, I think those’re new ones for me. The thing is that Bela appears on so many other people’s stuff that it’s really hard to keep track of. I must have about fifty CDs with him playing somewhere on them and I’m always finding more. Thanks again.
No, is he comparable to Sam Bush and David Grisman?
I agree, but when it came to payday, we got nothing but another beating. And that’s all that counts. It’s not enough to be proud of the battles we lost. We have steadily lost ground overall, and you are bright enough to see that. The issue is, should we change tactics.
He’s really good, comparing him with Sam and the Dawg it tough but he can play. Wire’s and Wood is great. Not the greatest vid but you get the idea.
Tony Rice is the greatest flat picker ever. Check out the Pizza Sessions with Tony, Dawg and Garcia.
And then get Grisman and Garcia
And one would assume you are down with Old and in the Way?
Old and in the Way, Wild Horses at Merlefest
You asked who I was. Did you forget?
We can’t be made invulnerable.
And what do you think will happen when the next financial crisis hits?
Nah, I mostly just followed were Bela led as far as bluegrass goes, although I do have some old Bill Monroe stuff and Hold on We’re Strummin’, and a few others like that, along with some New Grass Revival sans Bela. I followed a few of those guys around a bit too, but I really don’t consider myself a bluegrass connoisseur. I’m really more into the Jazz and Classical stuff, the folk and bluegrass are of secondary interest to me, but you’ve given me an awful lot to look into…
No, SD, not at all cost. Everything is a cost-benefit analysis. But I know that pacifism has limited utility against violent, immoral opponents. And I know that America would never have come into existence if the Founders had been such devoted pacifists as many here are.
Did it have any effect?
He was also for the public option when we couldn’t get it, but is against it now that it is within reach.
Z
I’ve grown tired with the democrats’ kabuki where they only take principled stands when they are ineffectual … they’re great for soundbites, but accomplish absolutely nothing for the people.
Z
So..you’ve given us your bona fides, and also admitted your various sockpuppets over the years.
Perhaps it’s time to step back for a minute and think about why your comments create the reactions they do.
I revealed my history only because people indicated curiousity about it. Personally, I don’t think my identity should matter at all in a discussion about ideas. But really, “sockpuppets”? I used to use my own real name.
I understand why I got the reaction I got, and also that there are people not on this thread who would have been more supportive of me. Pacifists have a POV, and I respect it, but I know it has its limits. That pacifism can so easily translate to passive aggresssivism, though, reflects more on the purity of those pacifists than on me. I would note that this whole discussion keyed off of me “wishing” that something would happen, but many who attacked me did so with the attitude that I was advocating violence or committing violence, which reflects more on their perceptual ability than on my position.
So, hopefully everyone enjoyed their respective hissy fits, and we can move forward tomorrow.
Peace.
I also understand the position and function of the Mods, and don’t think I have any free speech rights here. I was only asking for a rational consideration of whether the guidelines in effect could be clarified, and maybe whether they should be relaxed just a bit.
But I fully intend to stay within those guidelines, wherever they are drawn. I just don’t think it serves the community well to have them be too restrictive.
The hissy fits are usually a reaction to your comments. If that’s your intent, then you need to “own” the reaction to them.
And yes, some of us are very aware of your various FDL personnae.
I attended a few parties with Sam way back when (I attended Western Kentucky in beautiful Bowling Green)
what a crock of shit
not da kine of course
Now now..we all know better, and I’m going to presume that wasn’t directed toward anything I said ?
Not in the slightest.
So..can we agree to not make the mods’ job any more difficult than it already is?
I’ve never understood why the mandolin isn’t more prevalent in Jazz and Classical music, it must be difficult to master, because it produces a very beautiful sound in the hands of a master…such as Sam Bush.
ask the phi beta kappa, he’s got an answer for everything
or she
He was already a pretty good picker back then (it was when Newgrass Revival was just getting started)
Sorry, but I asked you. Can we agree or not?
As I recall, Bela was the youngster, late arrival and early departer from that group.
whatever you say
Go Mountaineers!
My intent is never to generate hissy fits, but only thought. I can’t own the reactions of others, though, especially since the reactors in question seem to be ASSUMING things that are not true, i.e., I’m not into violence, but you wouldn’t know that from reading their comments.
I was truly surprised to find that “wishing ill” for horrible people could be found indistinguishable from violence, it seems ridiculous to me, very “thought policey,” but as I said above, I will abide by the guidelines that exist, even though I wish they were both clearer and more relaxed. My position is that we need to discuss various extra-systemic options, because the system is completely rigged against us. I think that is a very defensible position, and it does not mean violence.
If you’ve read this thread, you know that people made unprovoked attacks on me that were not regulated by the Mods. I think those people need to own their own behavior. I want to be a respected and constructive member of this community, and I think some find me to be so, and having friction with any other members is completely contrary to my purpose here. And always will be.
So, peace to all, and to all a good night.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/we_re_not_buying_it_Y3SdZ99rd5fHIxkSDWfliJ
Hits the nail on the dead. “We’re not buying it, O.”
I know I’m way late in responding to this.
Gandhi ran the British empire out of India by being pacifist. I’m not a pacifist. I will defend myself, my community and my country if need be. Three years on the rivers of the Mekong Delta strongly suggested to me that violence is not the answer if one wants to fundamentally change our socio-economic system. That you advocate violence suggests to me you’ve never been in a situation where you might have to lay down your life for your cause. It’s not as glorious as you may think.
Wishing ill is distinguishable from violence. It’s the inner thought process that changes a violent thought to one of wishing ill.
As for cost-benefit analysis, when the shit comes down and it comes down in a blink, one doesn’t have time to do a cost-benefit analysis. Military planners do a c-b analysis before committing to an operation. Once the operation is under way all plans and analysis turn to shit.
Good morning, SD. Let me try to respond. Hopefully, with both of us understanding that this issue is very complicated.
First, I’m NOT advocating violence. Many here have erroneously assumed I am, but I have clearly and re[peatedly stated that I am not. It’s hard to have this discussion when people won’t pay attention to details. My position is that we need to consider the various extra-systemic options that may be available to us. There are many that could get attention, influence public opinion, and put pressure on the perception of order that the corporate oligarchy holds so dear. Violence is the very most extreme option, and one that should not even be contemplated unless all others fail. The Declaration of Independence supports the view that, at some point, violence may be justified. I’m not there yet.
Second, I have put my life at risk to help others, more than once. I don’t take it lightly.
Third, Ghandi, King, Mmandela, all resorted to extra-systemic tactics. The pacifists here seem not to appreciate that. Moreover, they don’t seem inclined to take even the kinds of actions those leaders took, although they love to cite them.
Fourth, not sure what your point is about wishing, but to me there is a clear line between thinking something and doing something, and the law recognizes that line.
Finally, cost-benefit analysis is the ultimate tool of a rational person. Not a perfect tool in every circumstance, only better than any other I am aware of. If you know a better way to decide upon an agenda, I’d like to hear about it. I will note that it takes some skill at critical thinking to do a cost-benefit analysis, and that skill only comes and increases with practice. The concept of self-defense, which you implicitly endorse, is always dependent upon a cost-benefit analysis, and is enshrined in our law as well as natural law.
I just wish some of the people here could feel less threatend at having their accustomed thought patterns challenged.