We recently learned that Harry Reid (D-NV) and Dick Durbin (D-IL) were actually whipping against the public option and trying to deny the American people a real up-or-down vote on the issue in the Senate. It is good to see that Bernie Sanders (I-VT) is willing to defy them and instead go with the will of the American people. From Greg Sargent:
“I think somebody should do that, and I’d certainly be prepared to do that,” Sanders told me when I asked him if he’d be willing to commit to introducing a public option amendment. This is, in effect, a commitment to introduce the amendment if no one else does.
As I have explained earlier, if even one senator offers a public option amendment, and it is ruled germane, it would likely get an up-or-down vote as part of the reconciliation vote-a-rama. Designing a public option/public program buy-in that would be ruled germane and does not violate the Byrd rule should definitely be possible.
Durbin’s argument against the public option amendment, or any other smart, pro-consumer, Democratic amendments, is that they could endanger passage of the reconciliation bill if it is sent back to the House. Given that Republican sources are saying the Senate parliamentarian ruled the House must first pass the comprehensive Senate health care bill before the reconciliation fixes can be taken up, the fear that the public option amendment could derail the reconciliation fixes seem strange.
If it gets to that point, Durbin will already have the health care reform bill he originally voted for signed into law. The reconciliation fixes are minor, and clearly not overly important to Durbin, since he already voted for a bill with all the “problems” in it. Since Durbin does not want the very important student loan reform bill as part of reconciliation, there is no reason to actually worry about the fate of the reconciliation sidecar bill from his stand point.



184 Comments








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About FDL Action
Why are Reid and Durbin so afraid of this one issue, which is make-or-break for voters?
People do not want the government to control healthcare. Stop being so stupid!!!! How many times does a poll have to say so before you get the picture? PJ, please grow a brain!
The government is controlling health care, always will be. Even if they reward privateers richly for bankrupting a million insured citizens a year and denying nearly fifty million others care.. it’s the governments doing.
We just need our government to do what 35 other civilized countries do far better than us on nearly every measurable level.
“People do not want the government to control healthcare. Stop being so stupid!!!!”
60% of Americans want a public option. Oh well.
Relax ranty-panties, the gubmint won’t control your healthcare. It will just give you an option to buy if you don’t like the junk policies on sale from your favorite
crooked trustinsurance company.Durbin and Reid don’t want a public option. Most likely because they are good foot soldiers and doing what the White House has asked them to do.
Sanders is an I, isn’t he? Malice, sloppy research, or am I wrong?
Mod note: Typo corrected. Thanks.
Good – the establishment Dems need to be defied!
We 60+% see those who want to deny others are just plain greedy.. Bet IT is paid to TROLL…
sad..
Maybe we should pass a bill making health care an Olympic sport… so all Americans could really understand just what kind of losers we are.
Our so called Gov’t is NOT what people think it is. Think of it the way it really is a landscape of agencies and depts. many already totally captured by certain Corps. and they’re allied pols. The whole thing has been divided up by these powerful interests who have PAID and are paying enormous amounts of what adds up to graft to make sure they’re profits are secured and enhanced. Its NOT at all a Gov’t that is there to protect “the people” anymore. It’s now being used to protect and profit certain people and not the rest of us. This whole picture is further complicated by layers of political administration that changes every 4 to 8 yrs as well and then add the courts. Its a vast hodge podge of competing powers and interests and unfortunately at its center is the all mighty dollar and in DC BS walks while $$ talks, so progressives do a lot of walking and the $$ interests do a lot of talking in plush town cars and salons.
Clarification Take the permission slip away from the private insurers.
Fund health care not for profit but to keep the American population healthy and strong.
One big benefits is a smaller pool of disease carriers infecting the rest of the population.
Less sick time overall if people get preventative medicine in a timely manner.
Results a stronger healthier work force. A much healthier retirement population. Remember JFK’s Vigah program anyone?
No one should lose their housing for medical costs.
The burden could be shifted from businesses making small business more viable.
Right – when France, Britain and Japan would always be winning the gold silver and bronze maybe the dead enders would wake up.
seanh352? Have you gotten a bill from Blue Cross Blue SHield, Well Point, lately, the people of the UNITED STATES want a PUBLIC OPTION.
Bernie Sanders and others are starting to realize the obvious Barack Obama is a one term president, thus the need to no longer follow Obama and Rahm.
Bernie Sanders is now BOLD enough to kick his party leadership to the curb.
This is what happens when you ACT like a Progressive “OBAMA” and govern like a right wing republican “Obama”.
Below is what Obama believes
Obama is against Drug Importation (GOP point of view)
Obama is against the Public Option (GOP point of view)
Obama is for Individual Mandates (GOP point of view)
Obama is for excise tax on Union Health Care Plans (GOP point of view)
Obama is for more WAR (GOP point of view)
OBAMA gives WALL STREET a couple TRILLION, MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX a Couple TRILLION, and gives the middle class 18 Billion (GOP Point of view)
OBAMA endorses a Health Care Bill written by Insurance Companies (GOP idea of governing, let rich get richer)
Bernie and other Dems see that Obama and Rahm Hope a Dope plan is falling apart,
Progressive more than any group can smell a right wing president from miles away, see we watch this horror show for 8 years it was call the BUSH PRESIDENCY FROM HELL.
Bernie want be the only Dem to abandon this White House
But of course. Hey BB JFK was my hero..
And you are absolutely correct a healthy population is by and large a happy population.. Shit if ya didn’t know how you are going to fund the maintenance of your body whats left??
Death??
Shit them there panels again… except by corporate America…
Government already “controls” roughly half of it, doing a better job of things than does the private sector. Sorry, troll.
Sounds good to me, bb..)
Now what do I do about this spring kayak fever? *s*
hey nahant, ES
Who’s afraid of the big bad Public Option? Why Durbin, Reid and Obama… They are scared shitless of actually having to help the American people get good and affordable healthcare; they thought that the corporate fix was in, so that they could go through the motions of trying to help the people, while actually helping increase corporate greed… As Mike Malloy would say, “God I hate these people…”
Nice one Bernie, anything to sucker the house into passing YOUR BILL.
Everyone seems to take for granted that not passing this atrocity will hurt dems in November, it seems to me that actually passing it will hurt them much worse.
November.
Hey PPDCUS
Good job Senator Sanders. I believe that Durbin will vote for a public option when push comes to shove. Let’s hope that push does come to shove.
I wonder what Mike Bennet’s PO position is now?
PPD!!!
How goes it?
Hey PPDCUS! Long time, no thread-share.
You go, Bernie.
Bernie Sanders, (S-America). I’m glad at least one Senator has a spine. I suppose Bernie’s going to have to do the heavy lifting on financial reregulation.
Has the troll got any thoughts on that issue?
not bad — how’s everything to the north?
hey kelly
Will the CBO have to score the Sanders PO before a vote?
Trolls? Where?
T
R
O
L
L
?
Shit….
Man the ramparts!!
Drink???
Pelosi said on Charlie Rose last night that nothing would come up for vote on HCR before the CBO report is issued, and duly flogged in the MSM.
New talk on the Ed Show that Obama should advocate for the public option. Not sure when or if that will happen (timing is everything), but if a decent public option gets put in place as the end result, then I will have every reason to start feircely questioning the Republicans like they deserve to be. And I will enjoy it. And they will lose come election time.
Pass the public option.
My LOTR sword isn’t glowing yet, dude.
I hear Pelosi on Rose has a part two scheduled for tonight?
It was a drive-by orc methinks.
Obama doesn’t want the public option any more than single payor.
Otherwise, we’d have an effective provisions in both house & senate bills going to reconciliation.
Pelosi was on 3/09 & 3/10.
Don’t miss Karl the Goebbels Rove tomorrow night.
http://www.charlierose.com/
Why don’t you grow one.
They’re all a fetid corrupt bunch of shit bags.
See seanh352 at 2…
Sounds trollish to me.
PPDCUS, I think you better get that sword checked.
Right on!
Don’t miss Karl the Goebbels Rove tomorrow night.
oh, what a drag. I think I’m gonna be having my hairs did at precisely whatever time that show airs….
seaglass, why don’t you tell us how you really feel about them?
We can get that troll Bach to the Future PDQ, BC.
Never gonna happen. the Health mafia has it all locked up.
Take a roll of tums about an hour before the show, JT
Perhaps you still think the President is a neoliberal. If so, you haven’t been reading the news lately. Make no mistake, if they fail with this healthcare reform, it rests largely on the head of our dear President, as well as the Democrats.
However, if the President and the Democrats in Congress succeed, woe be to the obstructionist Republicans.
“Bernie and other Dems see that Obama and Rahm Hope a Dope plan is falling apart”
So perfectly said.. Hope a Dope.. Love it.
Perhaps so, but political pressure sure is a wonderful thing indeed.
Way to funny for me to keep a stiff upper lip. Great sum up.
Ah, ya can’t grow brains.
Ya gotta folla the yella brick road to da Emerald City. When ya get there, ya gotta meet da Whizzerdaboz. If you do hit job for da Whizzerdaboz, he’ll give ya a piece o’ lambskin wot sez you iz smart and you can haz cheezburger.
So, basically for trolls like seanh, it’s hopeless.
No need for maneed ramparts or rammed man-parts, just a Firefox user script:
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/64937
Obamabot thanks you for your service.
Thank you jedimsnbcko )MSM)
So where do people go to sign up for the progressives?
And if they succeed, we’re screwed anyway. So who cares, besides Democrat partisans?
It’s a no win scenario, raven.
Nothing will pass that puts people’s access to quality health care above corporate profits. If it fails to pass, the same corporate interests will profit even more.
Like the financial collapse engineered by Rubin, Summers, Greenspan, Gramm, etal. during Clinton’s presidency, Bush & Cheney just armed the minefield, then led the country through it catastrophically for eight years.
Obama will face a firing squad majority of blue dog budget hawks & republicans in January 2011 who will run the country into the ground proving he doesn’t merit a second term.
And for all the wrong reasons as usual, they’ll be right.
What I call — Hope we can make believe in.
// @include http://*.firedoglake.com/*
That is so elegant and YOU are AWESOME!
I am an Obamabot for saying that he needs to pass a public option? Where do you guys come up with this stuff?
I am no partisan. Stop with your underhanded sociopathic false arguments and address WTF I am saying. Thank you.
What part of NO mandate without a full public option, doesn’t Obama get?
What the country needs and what Obama thinks he needs simply are two different things.
Obama has the reconciliation morrass his lack of strong, principled leadership generated by letting the lobbyists and opposition define the terms of the debate, and therefore what was even effective public policy, let alone politically smart.
It’d be this:
He’s a neolib. This bill, with no PO is HIS bill! And about the wars….
Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat. He’s an independent democratic socialist. I repeat, Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat.
I’m gonna recast The Stoned Guest on Capitol Hill in 2010.
Don Octave, itinerant not-so-nobleman — John Boehner
Donna Ribalda, a high-born lad of the lowlands — Olympia Snowe
Carmen Ghia, a lady of ailing repute — Michelle Bachman
Il Commendatoreadore — Mitch McConnell
Dog — Eric Massa
Tums my ass you will needs more than that!! Like 50mg Valium two days before then increase to 100 day before then 200 day of and have several next to ya just in case.. you Know Rove… FUCK!!
Do you even know what a neoliberal is? Define it please…
Heh. Carmen Ghia could be equally well cast as Sally Quinn.
I’ll defer to your definition; you brought it up…
Actually, Bernie is one of a handful of real Democrats in the Senate. There is a busload of Republican-lites in the Senate.
Let’s see, who is among that handful? Bernie, obviously. Feingold. As nearly as I can tell so far, Franken. Anyone got another nominee?
Exactly …. FDR said, I know it’s the right thing, now make me do it.
The Wall Street, K Street, D.C. Villager axis of power abuse determines what the masses will have to settle for.
Those living in gated communities with concierge retainer medical access, not so much.
I just checked my local PBS schedule. Kid Rock preempts Rose Pelosi pt. II tonight.
I guess I should be thankful.
Okay, I missed something. Who is Sally Quinn, and why should I cast her in lieu of someone as obviously bat-shit crazy as la Bachmann?
Consider it a warm up to seeing Tim Burton’s Alice — another journey though alternative reality where real people die when someone yells — more enhanced interrogation, drone bombing and financial terrorist bailouts.
Anyone got another nominee?
Whitehouse has his moments…
You called him a neoliberal. Why? What is that makes you define him as a neoliberal? What do you define as a neoliberal?
I’m asking in all sincerety. I really want to know.
How’s everything in Hoople these days, BC?
Sally’s the queen of D.C. Villager hemophiliacs — married to former MSM hero Ben Bradlee, managing editor of Katherine Graham’s WAPOST during Watergate.
She’s a WaPo harridan and is totally LOST! She’s one of the people that is the reason that digby coined the term Villager.
Google Sally Quinn and digby and you’ll get it right quick.
Actually, casting the role of the Dog was toughest. There are so damned many deserving of the part. John Ensign is the understudy…
You forgot Big Brother Watching/recording EVERYTHING!!
don’t forget that splitter up there in SF where everything IS also sent to the Government… has that gone away??
We’re missing Prof Schickele since he retired. We didn’t realize what a stabilizing influence he was until that Chilean earthquake hit and moved Hoople all the way into Northern South Dakota. Now everything’s reversed around here. The sun’s coming up in the west and setting in the east, we’re moving our clocks back an hour on Saturday night. We’re really missing the Professor…
Cool.
I’d forgotten about that, I won’t have to worry about studio time for the recording…
In the role of the Dog — my vote goes to Tom The Scum Also Rises DeLay, with Tony Blair as the understudy — he’s just a lap dog, not a real one.
Okey doke, here we go:
One definition:
And another from Wiki:
So here’s the deal as far as I’m concerened. Neolibs buy into the efficiency of markets argument, and health care is not a “market” in the real sense. You can’t shop while you’re having a heart attack, or a car accident.
The opposite of neoliberalism in the health arena is exactly how the other industrialized nations do it; single payer or provider. And that is not what we are doing at all, and Obama is not for such an arrangement.
So all is well in munchkinland, the Baumed out heartland of the country.
save some $$ but only if THEY let you have “Your” recordings….
.
.
.
.
. sigh details DETAILS!!
From Sicko — when the girl finds out that the ambulance trip to the hospital is denied because she didn’t get it pre-approved by her insurer — while she was unconscious.
That’s the future without a strong public option and a criminally enforceable mandate for people to purchase sham coverage from private insurers.
To quote your definition:
“A view of the world based on the belief that the optimal economic system is achieved by giving free reign to market participants, privatization, minimal restrictions on international trade, and the shrinking of government intervention in the economy.”
I ask again. Have you not been keeping up with the news lately? Would you like me to fill you in, or do you wish to hold on to your beliefs which insist that Obama is a neoliberal?
Hmmm. Interesting nomination, but deLay doesn’t seem to possess any of the defining characteristics of a dog. Which is a good thing, because I like dogs generally, even if some of them are pretty unsavory characters.
My question is will Sanders actually do what he says? He has been a big talker but when it comes to action he generally can’t be found.
Note that Sanders says only that he will put up such an amendment if no one else does. Why didn’t he say flatout that he would introduce such an amendment? We have seen this a million times before. A “progressive” says they will do something. They get lots of plaudits from the left blogosphere, but the put up or shut up moment never seems to come. We should also ask ourselves what public option is Sanders talking about? No one ever really defined it. The Hacker proposal was originally to extend to some 130 million Americans. The last public option I heard being discussed might only cover 3-4 million.
Neolib. I’ll fill you in.
It’s OBAMA’S BILL! That’s why Reid and Durbin are whipping AGAINST the Public Option. That’s why Obama wants to cut Social Security and Medicare/aid.
You can point to some pretty speech, but, nope, neolib, neolib, neolib.
Oh. My. doG.
You’re right. She is crazier than Bachmann, and I never would have believed it.
Add all the bailouts and tax cuts into that mix.
And continued funding of private militia too.
Have you checked its batteries?
Not a friendly, loyal, healthy dog. BC.
A foaming at the mouth bitch that’s liable to get you sued by your neighbors if you let it keep attacking the census taker who knocks on your door to convert you to socialist atheism.
Obama is not a Progressive, this is a given.
Just read post 14
and have a great day!
And back to my original point, is it not entirely possible to keep applying pressure for a public option? Perhaps the President would listen, or even more prudent, perhaps Congress may listen?
I tell you this, if the Democrats fail with this bill, it will surely be dreadful for them, but if they are successful, then let’s let some Republican heads roll. Or am I in the wrong blogosphere?
That’s of course my next neolib point.
When real trolls are about, PJ — no batteries are required.
It was a fairly small minefield before BushCheney got hold of the armory.
If they are successful with the RIGHT bill, including a PO, then they’ll truly be successful.
Passing this current neolib bill will have riotous consequences, nontheleast of which will be electorally.
You have it precisely backwards, dems will lose more seats passing it than they will letting it die.
Neoliberal is not defined by healthcare reform. I’ve asked you basic question to which you wish to side-step. If you are beholden to hating Obama without good reason, then it is YOU who are partisan.
You seem to not acknowledge your own definition of what describes a neoliberal. What’s up with that?
As the last several years have shown, free markets aren’t efficient even in the purely financial sphere. In healthcare they make no sense at all. In most healthcare markets there is little or no competition. They are dominated by a few big players. But the whole concept of competition re healthcare is spurious. The information asymmetries are built in. Patients simply lack the expert knowledge to make informed decisions. And even if they did, how do they shop around for the best cardiologist in the midst of a heart attack? Competition in healthcare is absurd. If you want to control prices you do it the old-fashioned way through price controls much as Medicare does.
Sounds mighty Republican of you.
Obamabot thanks you for your service..
It’s what we call three strikes in California –
Real health care access & insurance reform that puts people before corporate profit — FAIL
Real financial regulation enforcement reform that protects the real economy from the predation of parasite financial & government capture economies — FAIL
Reallocating massive federal spending to develop human capital and physical infrastructure to enhance America productivity of the real economy in a globalized system — FAIL
Very neolib, don’t ya think, kelly?
Has nothing to do with me or how I sound.
iamraven? you must first grasp the point that this is not a progressive bill.
we will hang this republican bill around Obama neck and his band of Democratic sell outs.
it is really that simple.
I try to be nice, and share definitions and argue gentlemanly, but I see that fails with you. So here we go:
Neoliberal is as I’ve shown above, where the philosophy is that governments are ineffecient and should have very limited role. This is a REPUBLICAN point of view, and really shouldn’t be called neoliberal at all. It’s a way of co-opting te term liberal into a right wing trap.
And Mr. Obama is indeed a neolib. He’s for WAR and it’s expansion in AfPak and against a single payer system, much less a Public Option.
I sidestep nothing; You, iamraven, are backing a loser, both by policy and by electoral strategy.
What part of reliance on the efficiency of free markets and concomitant deregulation do you not understand? Does it work? Of course not. But that is the great thing about ideologues they simply ignore the practical failures of their beliefs. So pumping trillions into a broken corrupt system of crony casino capitalism is precisely what neoliberals will do. They believe in the essential soundness of the system at the same time their very interventions give the lie to it.
I agree — when people realize years down the tubes, how they’ve been sold out by this lobbyist designed armageddon, the spineless fools will be blamed — not the anti-constitutional, torturing, war criminals who stick to their god given second amendment tea party principles.
In the battle between Jed Bartlett and Jack Bauer who do you really think ends up dead in the gutter?
I should point out too that neoliberalism, Washington consensus, or Chicago school is really just a cover for state corporatism. State corporatism was by the way how Mussolini defined fascism.
You’re exactly right, Kelly. Health care doesn’t generally operate in a market. Here’s a personal (if minor) example.
Our cat bit me one evening a few years ago for reasons that escape me. He was a very laid-back cat, and I had to do something that aggravated him. I woke up the next morning, and it was apparent that some cellulitis was setting in. I was out of date on my tetanus vaccination, and I thought that it would be a good idea to take. care. of. it. NOW.
I called my Primary Care Physician. They could see me in three days, and they had no tetanus vax in stock. I explained the situation, again. I want a prescription for Cipro or whatever the Dr deems appropriate, and I need a booster TODAY. The receptionist said she’d get back to me.
I decided to go to the University’s doc-in-the-box. I didn’t need an appointment, and I could get everything I needed there. So I went. They even had the tetanus (actually TD – tetanus and diphtheria) booster I needed. The only catch? I’d have to pay $40 for the tetanus booster. I said, “Give the shot.”
Three hours later, my Primary’s office called and said they could see me in 20 minutes and they’d located some TD vaccine. They do ordinarily stock it, but they were out, etc. I explained that I had already taken care of the matter, but thanked them for getting back to me.
Blue Cross declined to cover the cost of the booster, because my employer’s clinic is not a preferred provider. Why not? Because the University’s clinic (reasonably) sees only University personnel. Imagine that.
When I was arguing with Blue Cross, they did acknowledge that I did exactly the right thing. I got it taken care as I should have, although they would have covered me (!) if had done the wrong thing and waited for tetanus symptoms to appear. I asked if I was understanding that correctly. If I had held off, and required a $30-40K hospitalization because I neglected the problem, they would pay for that? Yes, less your deductible, of course.
Oh, and had I seen my internist, they would have reimbursed her for the vaccination and the office visit.
You want to tell me this system makes any sense at all?
iamraven? you like listening to obama words
you may want to view his actions.
Below are some of Obama actions
Obama is against Drug Importation (GOP point of view)
Obama is against the Public Option (GOP point of view)
Obama is for Individual Mandates (GOP point of view)
Obama is for excise tax on Union Health Care Plans (GOP point of view)
Obama is for more WAR (GOP point of view)
OBAMA gives WALL STREET a couple TRILLION, MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX a Couple TRILLION, and gives the middle class 18 Billion (GOP Point of view)
OBAMA endorses a Health Care Bill written by Insurance Companies (GOP idea of governing, let rich get richer)
iamraven the million dollar question is why is Obama trashing the Democratic party by making the main issue in a Depression Health CARE, the only issue in the USA is JOBs!
What is Obama really up to?
SUN TZU says it best all war is base on Deception.
A smart president would have just pass Job Bill, after Job Bill, to run the score up on Republicans, this tactic would have destroyed the GOP, but not OBAMA he ties up congress talking about Health Care.
Progressives have better wake up! something is not adding up here
Hmmm… Very interesting. Anymore uninformed partisanry you guys which posted comments 109-116 wish to throw at President Obama? I thought you guys were about wanting a public option. Am I wrong? Do you guys just wish to use this avenue to unnescessarily bash President Obama whilst side-stepping Congress? Who is partisan here?
Given this fascinating bit of Washington Post front page news, BC — I nominate your cat for the role of the dog.
Hmmmm.. my sword is glowing brightly now.
A really boring one, too.
Prove Obama wants the PO. Did he undo the PHrMA deal while we were all asleep or something?
Could Durbin possibly be doing the bidding of his fellow statesman Obama? Guess we can cross him off our list for potential Majority Leader and thank him for showing us his loyalties, or disloyalties early on.
the raven’s entitled to its view.
Not many people on FDL feel that their vote for Obama’s promises has done much more than circumvent a Palin ascendancy to the oval office by 25th amendment. In that regard, the 2008 election was a complete victory.
Like getting that tetanus shot before lockjaw sets in. You don’t feel any better, but you don’t die of a preventable illness.
I do listen to his words, and THEN I watch his actions. Patience is a virtue, and you should be more informed of which you speak.
Sun Tzu can kiss my ass. I would eat him for lunch.
From recent posts, it looks like Durbin’s battling Schumer for majority leader next January when Inveterate Invertebrate Reid goes the way of Daschle — directly to K Street.
Lead the way Lead! the Way the way from these creatures of the DARK!!
watertiger is shining a light over at the mothership
Good luck with that.
He’s been dead for over 2,500 years, and people still remember him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Tzu#Life
nice Suz nice..hope all is well with you?
There will be no dawn for jellyfish.
hi Suz
Actually many of us here are single payer advocates. Obama didn’t even allow that idea on the table because he said that cutting healthcare costs in half and assuring better outcomes was unAmerican. You really must be uninformed if you think that Obama ever seriously backed a public option. Finally, many of us have records here of being well ahead of the curve and predicting correctly the course of events. I keep a blog of Obama era scandals. You can access it by clicking on my name. My history of the healthcare debate is item 26. It chronicles less the day to day ins and outs and concentrates more on what Obama actually said at various points.
Why are you guys attacking me? I brought up a valid point to which you would think you guys would be interested in, but instead you want to bash me.
Why is that? You don’t address my points, and you only wish to make this about me. Why? Hmmmm…. I must think really hard on this one.
Maybe I’ll sleep on it awhile and figure it out next week.
You brought no ideas to the idea market. You never “informed” us “uninformed” people.
And I saw Mitch Stewart here in Denver a couple weeks ago, all about the “informed voter” thing that he says to bring to caucuses.
I call you out and challenge you for the missing information you claim you have. Produce it.
Well documented, Hugh. Hope we can make believe in.
If this was about refrigerators or washing machines, FTC would swoop in and file a cease & desist order for false advertising – bait & switch fraud.
Unfortunately, politics is a promissory wonderland.
Thanks for a somewhat cogent response. Instead of just blaming Obama, what have you done to move the debate forward?
After all, that was the purpose of my original post. I share the same frustrations, but why attack me? I am trying to pass information on to you guys, and you guys keep acting like I need to be informed. What gives?
Seems like it’s outright Obama bashing to me.
Now that’s a InHannity defense, isn’t it?
As noted in my # 123 — you’re entitled to your opinion.
Analysis of the actual results leads me, and others here, to a different conclusion.
You didn’t even describe how Obama was a neoliberal. I’m not here to hold your hand, and I did offer my help in informing YOU specifically, but you insisted on holding onto your belief. You lose.
Now you’re acting like your feelings have been hurt after a comment like that? A bit disingenuous, I think. Neoliberalism is hardly a difficult concept. We addressed your point. It had no effect. I broke with Obama in July 2008 over the FISA Amendments Act. I have chronicled in my list more than 140 events in the Obama campaign and Presidency to back up that break. You come in here say you don’t know the basics about the discussions but whale away anyway. If you have an argument you should make it. Coming into a discussion here and wanting us to bring you up to speed on what many of us have been covering for years, and then despite your protested ignorance criticizing without proffering your own evidence just loses you credibility here.
I’m still waiting for this “information” for us “uninformed” and bashers.
I’ve been far from bashing, not one personal attack at all. Just a vigorous refutation.
iamraven is using an old trick
the key to his entire game is that his valid point does not have an answer, because it is not a point at all, he wants to take the focus off the obvious,
it works like this you tell him the house is burning down, he will tell you the house is just a little warm.
Bush and his cronies used these tactics to justify the Iraq war.
Does anyone know why we attacked Iraq?
The obvious answer was for the OIL, but this can never be the answer.
It’s your Joe Friday — “just the facts, m’am” — that’s so disorienting, kelly.
I called it the InHannity Defense.
A bit of friendly advice — If you’re making a straw man argument from inside a burning house, it’s not likely to end well, scarecrow.
Franken, unfortunately is morally bankrupt on the Palestinian issue. And as Bluetoe2 underlined, Sanders is an independent socialist.
I guess you guys in this thread aren’t really about getting a public option, but really just about bashing Obama, and as my Mama always told me, or maybe it was something I read somewhere, never cast your pearls before the swine.
Since I won’t change my mind BEFORE you offer your information/wisdom, I lose?
You have got to be kidding.
This is not a debate; you demand fealty and that, sir/ma’am/avatar, I give to no one.
Peddle those pearls all you like … there is no strong public option, and there won’t be — and you know it.
I hear DKos is pushing hard for ObamaRhama’s plan. Plenty of swine over there who probably agree with you.
And arrived on the shoulders of nationalist pride and righteous sense of emotional purpose.
I know.
I do have a bit of schadenfreude watching the flailing about though.
We do not just blame. We dissect and analyze. You are defending Obama without any idea of what he stands for or more importantly has done. Obama’s advisers have all been Chicago school, neoliberals: Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, Timothy Geithner, Goolsbee, Orszag, even Cass Sunstein. No Stiglitz, Dean Baker, Jamie Galbraith, Robert Johnson, Bill Black, Michael Greenberger, or Simon Johnson to name a few. He espouses the views of those advisers and those advisers are all corporatist, neoliberals. How could he not be neoliberal? Again the issue of disingenuousness arises.
apparently you have not noticed that a bunch of ‘savvy businessmen’ own the pearls and your children’s pearls, nothing there to throw at the mirror, sorry.
From the early days of television …
Kelly, you’re trying to have a Dragnet conversation, and raven’s having a Car 54 Where Are You? conversation.
or Elizabeth Warren at the head of Treasury or the Federal Reserve or on the Supreme Court instead marginalized like Brooksley Born.
or Dr. Howard Dean leading the health care access expansion and cost containment debate for the administration.
“You are defending Obama without any idea of what he stands for or more importantly has done.”
When did I defend Obama? Hmmm? You think I don’t know what his cabinet and appointees consist of or what he’s done? Why is it that you guys wish to inflect on ME your own impression of Obama, and then blame it on me?
What gives? I want President Obama to push for a public option, and that was the point of my original post, but you guys have got it all figured out about me and everything else.
How’s that working for you? I’m done with this thread. Laterz.
Thus, learn the lesson of iamraven, writ small:
-Make a claim/position
-Never substantiate it
-Refute by assertion, or personality
-Provide no solid evidence
-Claim persecution
-Flee on failure
This is how to lose elections.
READ this:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/we_re_not_buying_it_Y3SdZ99rd5fHIxkSDWfliJ
This is the Ed Show that I was talking about, and maybe it means something, maybe not. We’ll see…
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/35824990
As for President Obama being a neoliberal, perhaps you need this little tidbit…
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/business/economy/12trade.html
This is mainstream news, and the readers here who were being smarmy, should know better.
I am surprised that none of the “informed” posters here chimed in to back me up, I guess?…
“Thus, learn the lesson of iamraven, writ small:
-Make a claim/position
-Never substantiate it
-Refute by assertion, or personality
-Provide no solid evidence
-Claim persecution
-Flee on failure
This is how to lose elections.”
Seriously, Kelly, go look in a mirror. You insult your own intelligence. Thanks for playing.
Group-think is a bitch, ain’t it? Just when y’all think you have it all figured out in Kumbaya fashion, someone comes along and points out your obvious exclusion. Welcome to reality.
Ok, now I’m done with the posers.
Bernie takes money from the AHIP, and Big Med, and PhARMA.
See opensecrets.org
Bernie is the hero du jour, today, this week.
His voting record has actually placed him as NOT such a hero, on many issues.
Bernie is not a progressive, he’s talking shit to get reelected.
No, I don’t have links, FDL has showed this over and over again for ages, so I don’t feel I HAVE to post links.
Go look at his voting record.
Bernie is NOT a progressive, he’s a shark, and face that turns hero or villain depending on his funding sources.
No different than any other of them.
Don’t be fooled, Bernie’s just a bright shiny distraction on the present sitch . . .
2 things:
One – you should diary these contentions about Sanders’ activities, instead of ‘remembering’ them from prior threads. Bring your links to wherever, show your work, and you will only have to do it once.
Two – Name for us please, a United States Senator who has more to offer Progressives than Bernie Sanders. Please.
Absolutely no plan that the Administration can come up with is going to boost U.S. exports sufficiently while China is continuing to pursue their mercantilist economic policies.
He’d absolutely destroy the Dollar in the process. So long as China is content to peg their currency, and devalue it against the Dollar to make their exports more attractive globally, the U.S. will not be able devalue the currency enough relative to the Yuan to make U.S. goods attractive comparatively. The only alternative would be to slash wages so low in the U.S. (lower than comparative Chinese labor), using labor deflation, to make goods competitively cheap.
China is beggar-thy-neighboring us, well the global economy really, but us especially.
I honestly don’t even know where to begin on the whole, “Obama isn’t a neoliberal.” position you were taking. His fiscal policy, public-welfare policy, foreign policy, and trade policy prerogatives are so utterly textbook examples of neoliberalism that assuming you actually know what his acted and stated prerogatives are, and know what neoliberalism means, then it would be so self-evidently true that Obama is a neoliberal that it’d be impossible to explain it any better to you than just pointing at those realities.
Even the public option is a neoliberal policy, because it rests the outcomes of social welfare in the failed efficiencies of markets; hence the whole, “we need the public option to provide competition to private insurers.” meme that grew up around it. The whole idea is bunk economics to start with, not to mention bad mathematics. Competition amongst risk-pools is anathema to efficiency. The most efficient outcomes in dual optimizing for max coverage and lowest cost are one single risk-pool that everyone is in. A monopoly risk-pool. Fracturing that pool just creates inefficiencies in friction of people moving between them, duplicated administrative functions, provider-level processing inefficiencies, etc.
It seems pretty clear to me that the Obama administration isn’t going to fight for, or plausibly even wants, a public option. Their deals with PhRMA and AHIP preclude a public option; for one thing. Then there’s the fact that he didn’t include one in his own provided plan. Not to mention the fact that it was eventually removed from his rhetoric over time as well.
“Absolutely no plan that the Administration can come up with”
I am just acknowledging your already predetermined failure mentality.
And you don’t know what you are talking about. I haven’t even listed the other things that have been done, and why should I? You will find some way to bash Obama, and will never ackowledge the progress.
I understand the disappointment with the healthcare reform in its current state, and I concur, but many of you here in this thread sound like a bunch of losers. Oh, why AM I responding to this?
Look, winners never quit, and quitters never win. The tale will be told when the bill is passed, but I urge you to apply pressure to our representatives to make sure it happens.
Larue is right about Sanders on this one. This is a floated compromise to which he didn’t even do on his own, but nevermind me. What do I know?
Do you want a public option or not?
Unless the Obama Administration’s plan is to try and force China to unpeg the Yuan, there is literally no inflationary policy that can be pursued to make U.S. goods more competitive on the global market, and that leaves deflationary measures; meaning they have to devalue U.S. labor (instead of the currency) to the point that U.S. labor is price competitive with China.
So no, there is nothing the Administration can do, short of taking over the Chinese central bankers with mind-control. They’re dead set on continuing their export-driven economy, and it’s causing a lot of problems with recovery around the globe, but especially in the U.S.
This is really pretty basic macroeconomics.
Now I know that you don’t have a clue as to what you are talking about. Neoliberalism was even defined in this thread, and you bypass that to make up your own BS about what it is.
Where do you pull your double-think 2+2=5 tricks from anyways?
And to comment 165: What utter crap.
Over and out.
I didn’t make up what neoliberalism is on my own. It’s defined in this thread appropriately as a belief in the function of markets to bring efficiencies to services for public-welfare that would otherwise be provided by the government.
That is precisely how I used the characterization.
I’d be very interested in your economic analysis of the international trade and currency situation that global markets are facing right now, and where my description of it is incorrect.
What the hey? You asked for it. Neoliberalism is about equalising all economies involved, or worse, the abuse of certain nations to prey on other nation’s resources and labor forces (at the expense of their own nation’s labor force).
Create all the equations which justify it in your oh-so-smart functioning equations. I love it. It’s great. Carry on, oh heady one.
I know what it is. I see the good and the bad.
What I’m telling you is, is that there is no equation with which to actually quantify this form of action, and nimrods who believe in the simple equations are possibly culpable for (or perhaps you have left out a few equations, such as corruption) is that what you have done is damage peoples’ lives to increase the profits of the extremely wealthy. Perhaps this act has even inadvertently killed people.
Are you so blind as to not see what happens on the ground? And BTW, exactly who gave you premision to do so on this nation’s behalf? Was it the people of the United States? I don’t remember that being the case, but again, what do I know? Did neoliberals come out and say that they wish to destruct the American economy so that the wealthy few could take advantage on a global scale?
Well, now that you have done so, what do you think of this economy now? Have you seen the new richest peoples’ list? Do you think I belive it was just some result of the real estate market? I hope not.
Exactly what nation are you from that you wish for the United States to continue to open its trade borders to others while other nations raise their economic borders?
Exactly who do you think you are fooling? You want to talk economics? Bring it.
I’m not a protectionist, but there is balance.
Come back?
Oh, and I am not a believer in free trade. I believe in managed and taxed fair trade. I just want it to be fair and not destructive.
Come back?
Bernie Sanders is of unimpeachable character.
But the “rotating cast of villains” will somehow find a way to insert themselves into this issue and no vote will ever be held. It is pretty much guaranteed. The only questions are how exactly will they do it, and who will it be this time?
In regards to your implications of ties to China and your no-can-do attitude, may I remind you that we are not beholden to China (I know that they are currently our pirmary lender). That is why things like healthcare reform is important. That is why we, as a nation, MUST begin to produce things instead of selling all of our industries out. We have brilliant people here who are not being properly utilised.
I encourage you not to get trapped into thinking that the US will self-destruct. We will come out of this. We will create a new badass economy, like you’ve never seen. We are the United States of America, and I assure you, that we will take the nescessary roads to make sure that we revive. We are a strong nation.
Did I mention the…
Public Option?
Just so you know, Nathan, my commentary was not nescessarily directed at you directly, and I was raven. ;)
bernie has more balls than reid, durbin and obama combined! Bernie For President!
Lib-Lib,
That Reid, Durbin, WH and many Dems DO NOT WANT ANY PUBLIC OPTION, seems hard for people to believe/ get. I guess it takes a magnificent grasp of the obvious to actually see this given fact. They mad a deal with AHIP and Big Pharma to absolutely NOT include a PO, otherwise, their allowances would be cut off!
Hammer, meet nail head!
“Sanders is an I, isn’t he? ” (yes)
The WH and Dem leadership are very firm on NOT allowing a PO into HCR. That would actually be a cost saving reform at at AHIP and Pharma’s expense! Team Obama says: “We’ll none of that f#ck!n sh!t ! ! ”
Bernie, their is no ‘I’ in TEAM, so get with our corporate agreement, dude. You are going to F#ck our overlords and we’ll get cut off, you commie! (snark)
Go Bernie! Thanks for fighting for the people, not corporations, like Team O’ and the Dem leadership.
Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Tri-care… hmmm, all government run health care.What part of “option” do you not understand? Give back All government money and help you receive, hypocrit.
Thanks Larue for the heads up.
Bernie has a way of always caving at the end, and saying some BS like “we can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the GOOD” Like Weiner
Jane and the other Bloggers are calling out these hyprocrits daily.
again thanks for the information
Google world health care rankings. I have never heard of some of the countries way ahead of US. Don’t know how certain lawmakers can say we have the best health care in the world with a straight face.
It was many moons ago that O’s chief henchperson told progressives to stop with the public option stuff. O doesn’t want it. He never wanted the PO, not even when he proposed it.
lawmakers can say anything with a straight face because that is the kind of people they are. they will say anything to further their agenda. they could care less about the voters. it is money and power that they worship.
milly, i know that you do not need anyone to tell you that you have brains. if you did not have any, you would have more than whoever. who are they polling? i am sure that if they poll the working people that do not earn enough to buy insurance, they would not care who controled healthcare as long as they could buy it. if our government is that bad, why are we trying to sell the idea to other countries. may be we need to take government out of verything, like defense, homeland security, military, get the picture or do we need to grow some brains
the only people who do not want government control healthcare are the people who already have healthcare. ask those who work but still cannot afford insurance and they will tell you that they do not care who controles healthcare. makes sense to me
ever hear “united we stand, divided we fall? we have never been so divided as we are now. this is why they can not get healthcare passed.