Obama doesn’t want a public option. :-) What you are speculating about will never be allowed to happen for that reason.

They are *lying* to us. This is crystal clear. No amount of lobbying or pressuring with the best of intentions will move the Dem-Repubs in the direction of working for the people. They have other employers.

So if the PO is put in….would the Pres. take it out? Just a thought.

tIs this the same Bernie Sanders who voted for the PHARMA favored Senate HCR Bill?

I am so sick and itred of my party and its members acting so ignorant on this health issue. State’s rights? What about integration or voting rights, good republicans supported that, we don’t know our history. Learn what I had to learn, eat crow and learn about what republicans stood for in the past check the article, its not unconstitutional

http://bit.ly/constitnmandate

I think to some degree they are both right because I think other Senators told Sanders what he wanted to hear (like so many politicians have done to the public), but I would expect the PO to get Dorganed if it ever did come to a vote. The politicians will claim to support something popular that they think has no chance of passing, but then when there is a chance of passing their true colors show as was evidenced with the Dorgan amendment.

The whole point of the past few months was to insure he never had to make that choice, RevBev. ;-) But I suspect that, should a bill with a real PO got to his desk, he’d have no choice but to sign it — if for no other reason than if he didn’t, it would be obviously because of his deals with PhRMA et al to keep Harry and Louise ads off the air, and he’s been trying mightily to keep people from noticing those.

Its so obvious that the whole Health care fiasco was NEVER about providing Health care to anyone. Its really been about making sure that the health Mafia gains another 31 mil. new customers and that we will all be FORCED by law to have PRIVATE HEALTH coverage or else be fines big time by the IRS. Its unprecedented to FORCE people to BUY someone else’s crap at gun pt. This is all about the huge amounts of $$ the Ins. companies want that is now going directly from the State to hospitals. Its about $$ not health. Obama could care less about coverage.

Please. I still haven’t seen any evidence that this whole thing isn’t just an exercise in kabuki theater and a money making opportunity for elected members of BOTH parties.

Obama is such a fraud. Sanders, the progressives and the people just might spoil his grand plans to reward the health insurance corporations at the expense of the people.

Some have been saying this all along and have been ridiculed, lambasted and rudely shut out of dialogues online. Not here, but on many blogs. In the end, they’ve done nothing more than successfully bail out the insurance industry, while getting everyone’s hopes up and distracting them from all their neighbour’s losing their houses next door.

Howard Dean said on the Ed show…if you are 55 or older,your insurance bill will be 20,000dollars per year,because they may charge 3X the amount…yea well Syanora adios

I like what Chris Hedges says about Obama. He’s nothing more than a product. Packaged and marketed as an instrument of change when all he’s doing is the bidding of corporate America.

How can anyone afford $20,000. You would have to make $60,000 after taxes. Or more to afford that. Is this just another way to make the economy a constant failure? Everything will go for health care. There is no way for a rebounding economic cycle if this stinker passes.

agreed
it is laughable,if it werent so sad

This whole push by Obama and the top dog Dems for the worthless Senate Health Care Deform Bill has made me so disgusted that I stopped reading and commenting on progressive blogs as well as not watching Keith, Ed and Rachel on MsNBC for the last several days. Thank god for Sponge Bob and Turner Classic Movies (TCM)… Ed Schultz has always been big on US imperial occupations in Afghanistan and Iraq; now after being on MSNBC for a year or so, he has sold out to the corporate insurance pigs on health care. Sickening… This health care deform, Senate style is textbbook fascism, the government and the corporations ganging up against the people…

o/t: just read that only 15% percent (65 members) of the House of Representatives supported the Dennis Kucinich resolution to immediately end our imperial occupation of The Republic of Afghanistan. The other 85% of these so-called “Representatives” are just worthless lying war pigs…
Phooey…

He couldn’t take it out but he could veto the legislation if it included a robust public option. Given his back room deals it would be interesting to see him back into a corner and try and spin his way out. A signing statement might be another alternative for Mr. Bipartisan.

The subsidies would cover some of that, I think. In reality, though, your basic point is correct. You’d have to be earning a heck of a lot more than 133 percent of FPL to afford that kind of policy, and that’s where the cutoff is for Medicaid.

you have to make a very low salary to get subsidized i believe.but thats just the beginning,what about copays and meds?

I have to ask this question, though, because it’s been bothering me. What kind of public option are we talking about here? Are we talking about a real public option, such as anyone who wants can use his subsidy to buy into Medicare, or are we talking something that maybe a million people might qualify for?

Obama would veto a public option.

So Sanders is in his usual role as the sop to the libruls.

Sanders is right, the votes are probably there. But I get the feeling that they’ll go for 50 and stop- which will be a disaster- they need to go for all 59. No, they won’t get them all, but we need to put the pressure on all of them- and even on Republicans to vote for it. It doesn’t matter if they vote nay. It’s all about pressure. Send the message that Cantor, Boehner and Mccain, Grassley, all these bozos are wrong when they claim people don’t want this. Pound on their doors.
But I think we’re forgetting one thing here- passage of the public option does not guarantee anything- if Obama is against it, he’ll veto the bill.
Would he dare? Would he, indeed

Subsidies, IIRC, go up to 350 percent of FPL.

Co-pays, deductibles, and lifetime caps are another subject, and yes, that’s what really sucks about this. The insurance you buy doesn’t actually pay for much of your expense. It’s really more like disaster insurance. It’s becoming increasingly expensive to buy an insurance policy that covers your expenses, and that’s part of the reason depending on insurance is so stupid.

He can’t veto a public option if it’s passed as an amendment to the bill in Reconciliation. He would have to veto the entire thing. He’s out pounding the pavement about how America needs this reform. He hasn’t stacked the deck and decided what the reform is that we need- he let congress hash that out- so if they send him a bill with a public opt- If he veto’s it, it would be like resigning the presidency.

This is a good question. I have to ask the same thing- because I bet it will turn into that, once the Senators get their hands on it. +1

Uhnder the Senate Rules Obama/Reid have only “pressure” with which to stop a Senator from proposing a public option amendment. If a Senator submits a public option amendment, under Reconcilliation rules it MUST be voted on.

Indeed on Countdown they keep saying that if the parliamentarian rules a public option amendment as out of order because it fails the Byrd rules, it will take 60 votes to over rule him – AND THIS IS WRONG. Only if the chair – in this case VP Biden – rules the public option violates the BYRD rules – will a 60 vote win be necessary. Biden is important – the parliamentarian opinion will be interesting but can be ignored by Biden.

So why is the media mis-informing folks about the public option rules under recon.?

A bunch of nonsense. Why would the insurance industry suddenly raise everyone’s premiums by that amount just because a reform laws pass? They would lose all their customers immediately- just because a mandate is there doesn’t mean people would pay it- I mean, a mortgage is usually more important to people than paying a fine on their taxes, and they stop paying those when they’re bankrupt. So, everything would stop. The insurance industry would fail. Totally. They can’t make billions each year by pricing the whole country out of the market, because they’d have no customers. They push it to the point where most people can afford and some cannot. It will stay that way. With, or without a Public opt. A public opt does not suddenly mean everything is okay, because if Docs raise their costs- and the public plan only pays up to a point- then we’re right back where we started. The govt plan can’t pick up the tab, the patient goes bankrupt trying, the govt dumps billions into the public plan to keep it floating (sound like a stimulus bill?) Same thing… no matter what. So, why not do what the republicans want? Nothing is clearly… better?

In the decade between my age 55 and 65, I probably spent a total of less than $5000 on medical expenses, including prescriptions.

Thank god for Sponge Bob and Turner Classic Movies . . .

Ha! More like a padded room, Sponge Bob and TCM.

And as for Kucinich, at this point I am ready to bypass the office of President and make Dennis emperor.

I don’t think the media is misinforming intentionally- I think THEY DON’t KNOW. The Byrd rule is more of a traditional rule, and has only been around since Byrd has been in the senate! It’s not part of the constitution, and many of these debate and voting rules are more formal and less documented, so it’s hard to know what’s around that corner until someone finally walks around it. The center-left leaning media is pushing the public option thing to keep the very news-savvy liberal audience excited (re: Ed Shultz), so they’ll tune in tomorrow, and the next day. Does that answer your question?

The other day, I spoke to someone at DFA who said that 39 senators were on record as supporting a public option. PCCC now says the number is 41. As I understand it, a few holdouts are saying they want to see an actual proposal before they can say whether or not they can support it. Getting the votes is very much possible.

Rahm is willing to force House Democrats to accept a bad piece of legislation, but Obama can’t even ask a few senators politely to support a public option?

It’s ridiculous. Obama is an epic failure.

If they actually do manage to pass a bill in both chambers that does not contain a PO, it will result in a Democratic disaster in November. Not that I care if a bunch of conservadems and corporate whores are sent packing, but it will also mean nothing gets done for at least another two years. It would also make Obama a one-term preznit, which could be a good thing if he loses the primary to someone like Dr. Dean. But at this point, it looks to me like the votes just aren’t there in the House given the level of “suspension of disbelief” required to believe the Senate won’t screw up the reconciliation process.

Mmmm. Why didn’t the GOP have any problem at all using reconciliation to pass their tax cuts for the wealthy? I don’t recall hearing any Dem protests about abuse of process when the GOPers fired the Parliamentarian because he wouldn’t rule their way.

One can only imagine what might have been the situation if, in their infinite wisdom, Obama/Rahm/Reid had decided that they would structure this effort to go primarily through Reconciliation in the first place and actually whipped votes for a Public Option.

Imagine Lieberman de-fanged, Nelson left spinning up on the northern Plains, Collins and Snowe a distant afterthought, all those Senators scrambling not to be the last person to get on the ship before it sailed rather than empowered as potential one man/woman vetoes.

For someone who campaigned on Hope Change and a big vision of what is possible, Obama has sure put up a lot of self-imposed hurdles to get anything done. And for someone renowned as a bare-knuckled strategist charged with getting this deal done…Rahm sure didn’t bring his gun to the knife fight.

Of course, there’s the alternative explanation that they were using 60 votes to scrape off as many liberal policy barnacles as possible as they tried to squeek over the reef.

I think the second, while, shockingly cavalier and cynical is the most straightforward explanation.

bravo i heard the BEES ARE DOING GREAT
good job mamabee

Did they ever ask for a CBO on the PO/Universal Coverage/Medicare for All. .

Epic failure indeed.

The man simply refuses to lead:

– Let Congress come up with its preferred proposal rather than taking a stand for what we want.
– Let’s try to be bipartisan, so we can spread the blame rather than make our policies stand or fall on their own.
– Let’s ignore any unpleasantness and illegality from the past and look forward.
– Let’s crumple at the first sign of push back on civil liberties initiatives and throw the Constitution out the window.

The guy is completely incapable as a leader. And to think he inspired such confidence as a campaigner. All hat, no cattle. I really regret my antipathy to Hillary, at least she’s a fighter and had no “post-partisan” delusions. Though she’d probably be actively fighting for the same BS DLC goals.

The problem with your scenario is that the rates at which doctors and hospitals are compensated ARE controllable under a public plan. In fact, Medicare right now sets it’s own rates on most services and has cut those rates over the last years. But under the current system, doctors and hospitals can choose not to take Medicare clients and the lower reimbursement rates. But if a public plan were large enough and had it’s compensation rates tied to Medicare rates, doctors and hospitals would be forced to choose between the reduced rates or a significant reduction in their business. That’s why a Medicare-for-all system is the best option for controlling costs. It would end things like massive duplication of equipment and facilities, unneeded tests, etc. This type of system works very well in places like Canada where physicians are private providers and receive a fixed fee for their services no matter where it is performed(with incentives for rural practices, etc).

So it actually IS possible to control costs, and thus insurance rates, through centralized control of the payment schedule. This also forces the industry to become more efficient in it’s purchases of equipment(expensive CAT scanners, etc) and facility construction. Just take a look at Canada, where all this is demonstrated in practice. Most Americans would think they’ve landed in insurance consumer heaven if they ever got a taste of Canadian healthcare, despite the nonsensical fearmongering by US corporate whores.

A majority of the American people WANT the public option! The failure of Congress to pass healthcare with the public option would only prove that the insurance industry has way too much influence.
The lobbyists play their game well. First they outright oppose H/C reform…….then they say “we will help you write the legislation” to twist it into something which benefits them (insurance industry)…….and then they let us fight for WHAT THEY WANT! Wake up people! 41 (AND COUNTING!) Senators have signed letter to say they would vote for healthcare with a public option. Call AND write your Senator today. Thank them if they signed and demand that they sign on if they have not. It is time they honor the wishes of the people and NOT the insurance industry!
This is not about Democrats or Republicans……it is about the will of the American people! If they do not respect the wishes of the people….THROW THEM OUT!
Joseph Pijanowski

Without a public plan health care costs will continue to spiral into the stratasphere. Of course insurers are lining their pockets and have greed that can never be satisfied, but the health care industry is equally complicit. In my community there are two huge major players that are in competition with each other for patients. One just built a new hospital and other just built a new outpatient surgery center, cancer center and yes, MEDICAL SPA. (Who, the hell needs a medical spa?) Both structures look like the Ritz-Carlton with stone, glass, art, gardens, etc. More lobbies and cathedral ceilings, gathering places with fountains, fireplaces, etc. than most hotels. You wonder why healthcare costs are high. Maintaining these edifices to ego cost a fortune and the patients are paying for it. By the way, a recent stay at the new Catholic Hospital. The care left a great deal to be desired boardering on medical negligence. I guess they think atmosphere trumps decent care.

Would Obama veto a bill with a public option?

Meh, Obama is a paid spokes person for the FIRE industry. He’s not paid to want a public option.

Btw, those claiming that the letters in FIRE stand for Finance, Insurance and Real Estate are incorrect. They stand for Fraud, Immorality, Racketeering, Embezzlement.

Yeah some WH-so called journalist ought to ask the Press Secretary if the Prez would veto the PO from the Health coverage bill.

This health bill is most likely to help ordinary Americans just like his Mortgage modification bill.No help but for the corporations.

We have another corporate stooge in the WH.

“Why would the insurance industry suddenly raise everyone’s premiums by that amount just because a reform laws pass? They would lose all their customers immediately- just because a mandate is there doesn’t mean people would pay it- I mean, a mortgage is usually more important to people than paying a fine on their taxes, and they stop paying those when they’re bankrupt.”

Well if you don’t pay for insurance you pay the IRS that then gives that money to the insurance companies, so the insurance companies get you either way and it would be far more profitable having less customers paying much larger amounts. If you are saying people are going to avoid mandate with the IRS by declaring bankruptcy, that I think is a bunch of nonsense.

One face the hero, the other face the villian, changes daily.

Yep.

Let us help get that bill on his desk and make him do what FDR told him he had to do.

FDR doesn’t speak to him, moreover he’d much rather be listening to Reagan.

As for Democrats, they seem to be beginning to realize that the public support by Democrats for this bill is not driven by it’s virtues (20 million left out in this Insurance industry bailout), but by their intense desire not to give the Rep. minority a win. Once that euphoria wears off, however, they’ll be just holding a pile of steaming shit, while Obama will be emboldened by his success to implement Reagan’s and Norquist’s dream of drowning the government in the bath tub. — They are beginning to realize that two things are likely to ensue as consequence of their ‘blindly follow the leader, the party right or wrong’ syndrome.That they will likely be term limited by the voters or cast out into to the political wilderness of minority status for another decade.

‘Fuck to the Chief!’, is beginning to take root as perhaps the more sensible option.

It’s the same Bernie Sanders who traded his yes vote for $10 billion for public healthcare clinics. That’s real government healthcare rather than just government insurance. When you start trashing the only self-proclaimed socialist in Congress as just another corporate tool, you’ve officially jumped the shark.

I lean slightly to the side that passing the bill is better than nothing in terms of policy at this point. But with Republicans fighting so hard to prevent it from passing, I have a hard time believing that not passing it is better politically for Dems. If it were so bad politically for Dems, Repubs would just stand back and watch it pass.

Republicans are equal opportunity idiots just like the Dems. If the Dem’s were offering them now SocSec privatization, they would fight it tooth and nail. They are staking their future on being the loyal opposition.

This bill is the Dem’s ‘Potemkincare’, aimed to be fully appreciated as such only after the next Presidential election. Right now we’re only be treated to a facade.

hear, hear!

Viva Sanders! Obama is just a typical DLC fraud.

Controlling the costs of health care is what the President and the Senate do not want. They took money from, and work for the health industry and the financial industry.

Obama made a deal with the industry to save $80 billion over 10 years, just to preempt and negate any harsher legislation from the House and Senate. Legislation originates in the House of Representatives, not the White House, and he knows that. He violated the U.S. Constitution. What a freaking joke! He is the “Trojan Horse” installed by the industry. The 2nd thing he is doing, is destroying the the recent public mandate of the Democratic party. Let me repeat—he is destroying the Democratic party. Why would he send out Rahm Emmanuel to say that the public option is not the most important thing, when they know it is the “only” thing that can control costs. Just as Medicare controls the cost of health services. They want to kill it.

They ganged up on, and rolled Hillary Clinton during the election, just to get her out of the way. Chicago style! Harry Reid is in trouble, and will be toast if he cannot get HCR done. And if it does not have a public option the Dems will be in the unemployment lines like everyone else—except for Obama’s pals at Goldman-Sachs who will be on the French Riviera. Goodbye America, we hardly knew you!

Obama is checkmated and he has to know it. There is no way out for him

He was sure that he could provide more profits for insurers as he longed to do and escape the blame by mumbling something about that the Senate or someone left him with no other choice. He was sure the public would see how sincere and sorry he was about his predicament.

Sadly for him and his beloved private insurance swindlers somehow it turns out miraculously that there was support for the Po all the time. Now he really is in a bind. Does he piss off his private insurance masters by having the PO standing squarely in the way of their profits, or does he piss off the entire population of the country by bending over for his private insurance pals and would be free marketeers

We knowo where his preferences lay but as I say there is no seeming way out for him. It will be very telling how he plays a patently losing hand. It is only fitting that we should be watching the rapidly vanishing Obama presidency and that it should be vanishing exactly for the right reason.

The House on Wednesday rejected an effort by anti-war lawmakers to force a withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Afghanistan by the end of the year.

189 Democratic members declared themselves Neocons.

60 voted yea, amongst them Stupak.

And as for Kucinich, at this point I am ready to bypass the office of President and make Dennis emperor.

Wouldn’t you have to clear that with President Graham? /s

There were 59 senators writhing in agony right before Christmas when Lieberjerk put the Medicare buy in on the skids. Certainly one should be able to whip 50 of them to … oh, wait. Never mind.

Ok, I have decided that I will support a government option. As long as there is an option to not pay for it. That way if you think there should be a government option you can have it and pay for it. If you do not think there should be a government option, then you can chose the option to not pay into the system. Seems fair for everyone doesn’t it? You get what you want, a government option. And I get what I want, to not pay for a government option.

i hear there are 43 senators now on board for the PO

I don’t want to pay for public schools because I don’t have kids. I also don’t want to pay for roads that I don’t drive on. That seems fair too.

I totally agree! I couldnt find anywhere in the Constitution that said we needed a Department of Education, or where Congress could raise taxes to pay for it. I say eliminate it! Leave it to the States. Let the States compete to figure out the best way to provide maximum quality schools while keeping costs (taxes) low. Property taxes to pay for schools? How ludicrous is that for the people in the neighborhood who do not have schools. But if we eliminate the property tax, and cut the Federal income tax, people would be able to keep more of their paycheck, and therefore be able to use that extra money they kept to pay for school for their kids if they had them.

The Constitution does say that Congress can raise and spend taxes on roads. We should limit this to Interstate highways only. The Federal Fuel Tax should be repealed. Rather than sending the money to the Feds to only get 90% back just so some buearacrats can skim their 10% off the top, just let the States raise road taxes. We the people would see an immediate drop of 10% of the Federal Fuel Tax of 18.4¢, or 1.84¢, per gallon, not much but a start, however the State would still have just as much money to maintain the roads in the State.

Twolf1 your ideas are brilliant. Lets see what else we can eliminate from the Federal government.

Obama seems to be saying, “damn what the people want when it comes to the Public Option, we don’t have the votes in the Senate!” Its his fucking job to GET the votes!

If the pledge count really reached 50, half of these Kabuki dancers would get amnesia about the public option! Trust Chris Dodd?

Bambi MUST get a serious primary.

Either Kucinich or Dean. JH must concentrate most of her efforts at fundraising on this and this alone. This is the one that really counts. Bambi must go. He must go before he gets chance to lose the next election. Though once primaried out, I would not be at all surprised to see him try and run as a Republican. I bet there’s a way that could be done too….

bailey2739 said:

tIs this the same Bernie Sanders who voted for the PHARMA favored Senate HCR Bill?

********

That doesn’t sound like the Bernie Sanders I know. Can you please point me in the direction of that information.

The White House touts as do many when you say it’s a bad bill that it will end discrimination against pre-existing conditions. WELL, I am not a rocket scientist but I immediately thought hey-but how much can they charge if you have a pre-existing condition. Still waiting for an answer.

If you can’t afford it-it’s still not health care for you. Why do some so blindly believe instead of asking the obvious? Why would anyone in their right mind trust insurance companies?

Rationalizations, we ALL do it. The Senate HCR Bill should have been defeated! It wouldn’t have been the end of HCR, it would have been the beginning of serious debate over using reconciliation. Sanders knows that, I’m surprised you don’t.

By the way, Miasmo, Feingold also knows it. The Democratic Party has lost its way & Sanders missed a great opportunity to remind it that ideals do matter more than pay-offs.

You are right. Obama is not into the public option nor medicare for all. He has not fought for it and has kicked the supporters under the table.