If history is any guide, we can see that sunset clauses and fix-later assurances never come to anything. That’s why sunset clauses are so popular. Indeed, if Obamacare passes, no matter how many Americans say that we were promised they would fix it, we’ll hear the refrain, “We already reformed health care. We’re not going to disrupt the work of the legislature with another drawn out legislative battle.” It’s better to get it right the first time than to wait forever for a fix. They won’t fix it.

House Dems need to read the Republican Bill written by the White House and Senate Dems. The White House and Senate Dems are very upset that the GOP and the Tea Party hate their Republican Bill

Are these Progressives Ideas?

no Drug Importation for americans o-kay with Obama and Senate Dems

no Public Option for the american people o-kay with Obama and Senate Dems

excise tax on Union Health Care Plans o-kay with Obama and Senate Dems

individual mandate forcing people to buy Health Insurance from for profit companies, o-kay with Obama and Senate Dems

turning back the clock on abortion rights o-kay with Obama and Senate Dems

Obama Increas the IRS penalty if americans don’t buy Health Insurance from for profit Health Insurance companies WOW!

If a House Dems votes for this HCR scam Bill, like Obama they are going to have to decide if they are going to RUN as republican or tea party candidate in 2010.

New Flash to House Dems outside of Washington DC, the NATION IS CURRENTLY In a DEPRESSION.

The people want CONGRESS talking about JOBs, Jobs, Jobs, (Democrats don’t do Shock Docrine well) Especially when the USA is in a DEPRESSION or Jobless Recovery

By the way, what I meant by sunset clauses is that they usually sunset after everybody has forgotten about the issue and then Congress simply makes the law permanent once nobody is looking.

Miller may be correct as to the sequence needed, but if the House progressives must depend on the good will of the Senate Dems to get the fix into the Bill – with no promises from anyone – they may as well walk away from this disaster.

There has never been a surer bet than that there will never be a reconcilation bill to fix anything if the house votes for the Senate Bill first, except for the certainty that Reid and Obama will claim they never promised any such thing.

Pass the Senate bill, and the Senate will fix it? Does anybody in the House really believe the Senate will fix it?

Do they also believe that if Nancy Pelosi leaves the passed Senate bill under her pillow, the Tooth Fairy will pick it up?

Miller thinks that Reid believes that he can put the votes together?

Really?

If the House stupidly does this and it falls through (i.e. when the inevitable happens), every member of the House who goes along with it – after having claimed to be a leader on health care reform and having taken money from progressives for months – will have to be held accountable.

For example, if Weiner and Grayson stupidly go along with this and it falls through (i.e. when the inevitable happens), Firedoglake will have to strip them of their 2010 Fire Dog status, demand that they return every penny that was given to them, very publicly and loudly shame them, and never trust them again. If Firedoglake does not hold the most visible of the supposed “allies” accountable for such a betrayal, Firedoglake would lose all credibility.

If the house goes along with it they’ll go down in history as the Kamikaze Democrats–mass fiery suicide into the wreckage of “health care” “reform”

A few questions
How are different upper and lower house bills reconciled in other nations?
Is not reconciliation used to adjust differences in and House and Senate bills?
Do not both houses of congress need to vote on the reconciled bill?

It is my understanding that (publicly) Reid changed his mind about the limitations of reconciliation after the house voted. I am trying to understand the significance of this.

ALSO (WikiPedia reff)
Reconciliation (United States Congress)
2010 health care reform controversy
http://tinyurl.com/yhc65y3

No matter whether the House votes on reconciliation or the Senate bill first, the Speaker can ensure that the health care bill is signed into law before reconciliation. (The dirty little secret of Congress is that even if the House votes to pass the Senate health care bill tomorrow, the Speaker has unilateral power to hold that bill at her desk until January 3 of next year before sending it to the President and starting the 10-day Constitutional veto clock.)

The Senate bill also bill deep-sixes the extension of COBRA in the House bill.


The HOUSE bill permits anyone on COBRA or state-extension of COBRA to continue on their group-rate insurance plan (of course the individual has to pay the premium) until the exchanges start.

That is a huge benefit for millions of unemployed that is COST FREE for the government because it allows the unemployed, who include many over 50 who CANNOT get insurance in the marketplace because of pre-existing conditions, to continue coverage.
This is a very important issue. See section 113 of the HOUSE bill.

Jon, when you have this occurring, the handwriting is on the wall for all to see.

And this is also an excellent example of just how bought the U.S. Senate is. As you rightly noted, this costs the government NOTHING, so the only reason, THE ONLY REASON, it wasn’t included in the bill was because the insurance companies don’t want these folks any longer (they’re likely costing them money).

No Senator can use fiscal reasons for objecting to this, as it costs the government not one damned penny. It is missing ONLY because the health insurance industry asked that it not be there.

And it isn’t.

Just like that.

Funny that…

O/T but no Live Blogging of the tsunami in Hawaii??? Where is Mr Tuttle when ya need him?? … sniff… sniff

Can the folks with more Congressional smarts than I answer a nagging question of mine.

I thought the only time a majority could avoid the filibuster was in a reconciliation vote. Isn’t it true that if the House passes the Senate bill, that both bills will then be the same, and thus there is no more reconciliation???

I mean they would essentially be creating a new bill then, right? And why wouldn’t that new bill require 60 votes?

Nevermind that, figured it out myself. Sorry for the ignorant question.

Hey Miller, shove it up your ass. Where’s little Anthony Weiner’s response to this, he’s a ‘fighter’ isn’t he?

I said a long time ago that there is no f’ing way Pelosi is going to fall for this “you guys have to pass our Senate bill first and then we’ll amend it” BS. If I’m wrong and Pelosi falls for the “Lucy and the football trick”, I’ll concede that Pelosi doesn’t have the spine I give her credit for. (Reid and Obama have amply demonstrated they have no spines; Pelosi is the one member of the Democratic leadership that I still believe understands how politics works.)

Stewjack,

Q1: How are upper and lower body bills reconciled in most other countries?
A1: Most other democracies have parliamentary systems of government, a far superior type of government (which is why when we “nation build,” like we have in Iraq and Afghanistan, we push on them parliaments, NOT bicameral bodies that just muck things up). This ensures that they don’t have to merge bills… you pass the bill, you pass the bill.

Q2: Is not reconciliation used to adjust differences in the House and Senate?
A2: Not usually. I can’t honestly remember another time this took place… it’s rare. Typically, conference committees meet with House and Senate members, where they use two, similar bills to merge them together to create a unified “conference report,” which must then be passed again in both bodies. There are other ways that it’s done, too, but the special election change that occurred necessitated Senate Democrats to become a *little* bit more creative — thus the sidecar reconciliation talk.

Q3: Do not both bodies have to vote on the reconciled bill?
A3: If the House passed the Senate bill before the Senate does a reconciliation fix, no, they wouldn’t. What this Rep is saying is that if the House passes the Senate version of the bill — so there wouldn’t need to be a conference committee or other method of merging the two bills (in effect, they’d be the same *exact* bills, so they wouldn’t need to be merged) — the Senate would then pass a reconciliation bill which would make additions/changes to the Senate version of the bill and THEN the House could pass *that* later too. It’s completely absurd. The Senate would have absolutely, positively no reason to.

If the House passes the Senate bill before the Senate passes a reconciliation sidecar fix, there’s absolutely no reason for the Senate to pass another bill… and the President could sign the bill that very day. If there’s no reason for a body to do something, it won’t do it. If the House makes this mistake, I will certainly have completely lost any of my last shreds of hope that Democrats could manage to learn to govern effectively.

Just to be clear what exactly is required by the fucked up rules these Congress people are bound by, if they are bound by any rules at all.

If by law the House is bound to pass the Senate’s version of a competing bill on the same issue before it can return it’s modified version of the Senate bill to renconciliation for the Senate’s simple majority approval that is one thing. But is that the way the law stands? On what basis are we being told that is what the House is bound to do.

If so then the House knows what modifications it is prepared to make on the Senate’s bill and has known that all along since December. And it should have made those changes known to the public. Most importantly, is the House firm on its insistence to include a public financed not for profit plan, such as PO or Medicare buy-in in its proposal to be sent for the Senate’s approval in reconciliation. This is a “fix” that the House should already know whether it will make or not.

If in fact no such laws or rules exist that binds the House as to how it should proceed when reconciling its own with the Senate’s version of two competing bills then we are just being jerked around. We already foresaw that these assholes are well prepared to pass the Senate’s shit bill because they want to not because they are bound by some make beleive rules of engagment between the House and the Senate.

We should demand that these fucks speak to us in plain English and to quit taking us for fools and saps. Whatever crap they decide to pass we should start looking for ways to undermine its effects somehow using boycotts of some kind. We need to plan ahead.

I couldn’t agree more.

Book Salon up at the Mothership with Lewis Maltby’s Can They Do That?: Retaking Our Fundamental Rights in the Workplace hosted by Tula Connell

I have no idea why the spaces I wrote to seperate my paragraphs didn’t show up, but I’ve tried to edit it twice now and it’s just not working. /sigh

If anyone knows how to fix that, let me know. I tried just using spaces, I tried html… it’s just not working. The sad thing is it was fine before I edited one word (I wrote sidebar instead of sidecar once… I would have much preferred the first error!)

Don’t worry, you’re the only one who sees it, if you clear your cache or log out it will look right to you like it does to us.

: )

After you’ve edited a comment and it looks like all the formatting has been lost, just refresh the page and it should clear right up.

Ryan, your post@18 looks OK. Refresh your browser page if you can’t see the formatting.

That happens when you edit it.

It looks fine to the rest of us, and usually clears up for the person editing it when they do a screen refresh.

Geez, ok Ryan, I think you get the picture, after 4 in a row. *g*

My experience with people saying ‘get it in first, we’ll fix the problems later’ is that the problems never get fixed.
If Miller hasn’t learned that, at his age, he shouldn’t be in Congress. And neither should anyone else who thinks that passing a bad bill, on someone else’s word that it will get fixed later, is bad legislation.

Fix the !@#$%^&*() problems first, then pass it.

While we’re on the subject of funny things occurring when you edit, I should tell you too that sometimes if you make more than one edit to a post, that for some reason you won’t see the latest “fix,” even after a refresh. I’ve had that happen several times as well.

In fact, I’ve re-editted it again, only to see the fix “missing”. Then I would get out of IE totally, get back in again, log in again, and the second edit was there the whole time.

Don’t know if I’m the only one that happens too, but if not, thought I’d alert you to that possibility as well.

Will they be fixing it the same way they fixed NAFTA?

Probably the exact same way they fixed NAFTA.

Why don’t they do the reverse: pass the House version in the Senate, with the House then promising to “reconcile” any differences, but with an eye on especially cutting out any references to abortion because abortion has utterly no place in any healthcare reform legislation, at least if that legislation is meant to further the health of American women?

The (currently Democratically controlled) United States government is a gigantic clusterfuck of corruption just like it was under George (clown shoes) Bush. Voting advise for serfs. Always vote. Never vote for a Democrat or a Republican.

If the House acts first, they better be prepared to be left holding the bag and defending in midterm elections an incredibly unpopular bill that they had no say in writing.

Amen. I can’t believe Pelosi would fall for this. If I were she, no assurance would be enough. She shouldn’t trust anyone in the Senate — or the WH, for that matter. And Miller should not be putting her in the cross-hairs like this if she hasn’t already made the decision.

Before I saved Obama’s ass, I would need an apology from him for fucking up HCR so badly and a promise that his stupid fetish of reaching out to Rs would end. We can’t afford his totally fucked-up approach to governing to be used going forward.

Could it be any clearer that these people do not deserve our votes and do not deserve to govern?

Head on over to TBogg’s blog. His daughter attends college on Oahu, and some of us here in Hawaii have been posting “updates.”

Long story = short: a big lot of nothing.

If I’m wrong and Pelosi falls for the “Lucy and the football trick”, I’ll concede that Pelosi doesn’t have the spine I give her credit for.

Did you see that Rahm “took a meeting” with her to “discuss” health care.

Wonder how that went?

I think that the “noise” the left continues to make is still unsettling the powers that be in DC and they really see us as the real threat. If for no other reason I would not be surprised to see the House deciding that screwing up health care is the best way to cut our feet out from under us. There is no other explanation for their even hinting at pushing such an unpopular set of policies. If they defeat all progressive initiatives on HC well be so defeated we won’t cause them any more problems.

That is the real game at this point. Screw the left.

Add a .50 tax to every fast food order which exceeds 500 total calories. With the millions of those sold every day in America, that would help illuminate the issue, discourage the consumption a little, and toss billions of dollars into the kitty to finance health reform — saw a cool site; Balkingpoints ; incredible satellite view of earth

And the money we joyfully (and idiotically…) sent to those congers who SWORE that they wouldn’t support any bill that didn’t have a real public option?

I’m going to rent the grubbiest pornflick I can find; it’s more enlightening than watching Barack Obama and the democrats sell us out.

Someone else gets fucked in those.

Yeah, at least someone else gets screwed in those.

Doh!

Beat me to it.

Whadda ya drinkin??

vodka martini

If they defeat all progressive initiatives on HC we’ll be so defeated we won’t cause them any more problems.

Fat chance, eh?

Enjoy!

Here comes the setup:

Pelosi Struggles to Corral Votes for Health Care Bill

WASHINGTON — The future of President Obama’s health care overhaul now rests largely with two blocs of swing Democrats in the House of Representatives — abortion opponents and fiscal conservatives — whose indecision signals the difficulties Speaker Nancy Pelosi faces in securing the votes necessary to pass the bill.

Next we’ll here the Senate bill is just better than nothing. They tried really really hard but gosh darn, this is just the best we can do…

Whatever the outcome, they will have to live with the fact that millions who voted for him know that Obama and crew are a total fraud.

One thing — perhaps the only thing? — we have in our favor is the previous very narrow margin (5 votes) by which the House bill passed. Only takes a few people changing their minds (without a corresponding pick-up of votes from other camps) to kill the whole thing.

If the Dems pass the Senate bill without fixes through reconciliation they will deserve to be run out of power in Copngress. Unfortunately, we the public will not deserve the screwing we’ll get.

I can’t imagine any promise the Senate makes as being worth more than snot covered tissue paper. Put it in ink on a piece of legislation and pass it. Then we’ll take that to the bank.

The House has passed cap & trade and was ignored. They’ve passed 290+ bills and been ignored. They’ve passed a decent HCR bill and they were ignored. It’s time for the Lords of the Senate to take a kick in the gut.

Thank you very much for your detailed reply to my questions.

Ha! Kamikaze Democrats, eh?

You’d be giving the House Democrats too much credit. The kamikaze pilots were ordered to take out US Navy vessels. I don’t think they got any Bushido hero points if they flew the wrong way and took out a bunch of Japanese civilians instead.

I am *no* expert of *any* kind on Congressional rules and procedures (there are far better minds here for that than mine) BUT the tiny detail that has been lost in the shuffle is that once Coakley lost in MA, the HCR conference (secret or otherwise, so you can see no one wanted it anyway …) became a problem because of the post-conference vote in the Senate. After the MA vote, they cannot have the same vote again on the Senate version even if it was unchanged after conference with House input.

So they had to start looking for another way to *work* it out and had to jump to reconciliation for the SAME Senate bill as an opening gambit. The first solution (FIX) was to suggest the House have a new vote on the Senate version (arrogant bastards) but the House won’t go for that…. and the debate goes on. All to avoid voting again on the Senate bill out of conference which they know won’t pass the Senate.

But the truth is there was a stalemate before then which is why they were already trying to jimmy the conference rules before MA. The House and Senate were always miles apart and neither has the votes for the others’ work.

They have been trying to trick Pelosi since the Christmas vote. If she takes the bait after all her talk about the PO (again with teh PO) on Thursday she is even a bigger fool than I thought … or Rahm is blackmailing her.

The longer the debate goes on the more skittish the House members become. The only risk now is that they will pull the trigger on passing *something* bad because they are more nervous about having nothing than having a suicide bill. But it will still be suicide.

Bottom Line: THE SENATE CANNOT BE TRUSTED BY ANYONE FOR ANYTHING. Pelosi knows that. Reid’s sitting on 290 bills voted through the house. That is another dynamic that discredits the Senate more and more as every day passes.

does it bother anyone here other than me that the HOUSE bill appears to be, in almost all respects, worse than romneycare?

does it bother anyone here other than me that the HOUSE bill appears to be, in almost all respects, worse than romneycare?

Yes

Just wait.

My brother, a doc in Mass, notes people will not use their insurance even when required to get it because they will not be able to afford anything care-wise above premiums. They will not be able to take on ANY out-of-pocket.

He is going through that now. People have just stopped going to docs. Great for the insurance industry, bad for docs and patients.

He has many patients he knows are not getting the simple care they need.

How many unemployed docs will it take to bring change?

ALERT FOLKS

The Diane Rehm show right now. Send in your questions drshow@wamu.org or call 800-433-8850

10:00Reconciliation, and Health Care Reform
Democrats say they’ll move forward on health care reform, with or without G-O-P support. The next steps toward fixing a system both sides acknowledge is broken, and the political consequences of a solution lacking bipartisan support.

Guests
E.J. Dionne, senior fellow at The Brookings Institution, Washington Post columnist, and author of “Souled Out: Reclaiming Faith and Politics After the Religious Right” and of “Stand Up Fight Back.”

Julie Rovner, health policy correspondent for National Public Radio, author of “Health Care Policy and Politics A-Z,” and contributing editor for National Journal’s CongressDaily.

William Hoagland, Vice President of Public Policy at CIGNA Corporation. He is a former top aide to Senator Bill Frist and Pete Dominici.

Be calm and clear with the screener Dorie. She is awesome. Go ahead give it a shot call in. They are focused on reconciliation

It sounds like that would throw the Medical Loss Ratio (the percentage of premiums that are actually used to pay for health care) all to hell. Does MA have a minimum loss ratio? In California, it’s a wonderful (for the insurance companies) 70%.

I wonder if Pelosi and the House Democrats would have enough spine to tell the Senate, “OK, we’ve passed your bill. Now get the fixes done or we will appropriate $0 for the Senate every budget until it gets done.”