Tweet
The President’s new health care bill does not include a public option, but it does increase the maximum penalty for failure to comply with the mandate to buy health insurance, which rises from 2% to 2.5% of annual income (PDF).
But for months now, polling has shown that a mandate with no public option is an extremely unpopular combination. The annual penalty for failure to comply makes it even more unpopular in swing districts.
I’m uncertain how this is supposed to sway nervous Democrats in the House to vote for the bill. Jon Cohen writes about possible outcomes of the President’s health care summit today, and agrees that the problem is no longer the Senate, but is, instead, the House:
House, by all accounts, is the chamber that worries reformers the most. Centrists and freshmen are nervous about voting for a bill, given the latest poll numbers and rebuke to Democrats in Massachusetts last month. Liberals are less than thrilled about voting for a bill they deem to conservative.
[]
Will Democrats, particularly in the House, get past their fear and vote for the bill? Really that’s what the summit is all about–convincing nervous Democrats that the Republicans really aren’t interested in compromise and that health care reform, despite the poll numbers, is still a good idea. (Hopefully somebody will mention to nervous Democrats the finding, consistent across polls, that the individual elements of reform remain extremely popular, even if the package as a whole isn’t.)
The Democrats in Republican leaning districts want Republican cover before they’ll vote for anything. The White House knows they’re probably not going to get that, so they at least have to look like they tried. They will try to paint a picture that blames Republican obstructionism for a failure to achieve “bipartisan” support.
With Obama’s own Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel, out there telling everyone that Obama’s health care plan is “too liberal,” I can’t imagine how they think that this game plan will result in calming the fears of even one wavering Blue Dog. Raising the mandate penalty just gives more ammunition to the John Shaddegg argument for Republicans to use.
Stu Rothenberg just shifted 28 seats in the “R” direction for the 2010 election. Don’t think nobody noticed.
262 Comments
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About FDL Action
Obama must want to only be a one-termer if he thinks people want to become corporate serfs – or he knows they don’t want to become corporate serfs, but if he delivers to the corporate lobbyists, he’ll follow the Bill Clinton model of $500K plus speeches as payback for everyone he sold out as he gladly leaves office to cash in on his trillion dollar corporate welfare deal.
So Obama dawdled for what, a year now? And the result is this?
If Cenk Uygur is right and Rahm is toast…
Also not going to happen?
This whole bill is a giveaway to industry.
Rate boards never work. Wasn’t Palin on the rate board and got funding for her election from industry.
The mandate is clear giveaway to industry.
Why do this with reconciliation when you can get public option or medicare for all with reconciliation. This is another WH tactic to stop healthcare that would really help public.
What happened to the 51 votes from last october for public option ? We had 51 votes back then.
A health care bill with mandates, penalties and taxes but no public option and greater restriction on a woman’s access to reproductive rights is not health care reform. Looks like the White House and the Senate didn’t get the message that was sent by the MA voters.
That’s a good question. What happened to the 51 votes in the Senate?
If the Senate passed the House bill, the loss of House votes wouldn’t be a problem.
60-75% of the american people support a public option. They keep trying to spin this large percentage as the left.
“What happened to the 51 votes from last october for public option ? We had 51 votes back then.”
Politicians engaging in deception. This has been a real wake-up call for many people where politicians are caught saying things when they don’t think they’ll ever be put in a position of having to follow through and then once they are, they expose themselves. This is true with the PO and a number of other things where a bunch of politicians drew a line in the sand that they thought they’d never have to cross and then when the time came, they showed it was just to deceive the public. The 51 votes were there when 60 votes was set as the requirement to pass legislation and now with the Brown win, it has shown that a number of the 51 were engaged in cynical deception of their constituents. Obama and many others have been exposed for talking the populist talk, but walking the corporatist walk.
Well if you read Jon Walker’s piece in today’s firedoglake, you can guess with him that the new regulatory authority is not going to make it past the Senate, so this just leaves us back at square one, which is where you said we were.
Perhaps a number of them simply don’t care since being voted out of office wouldn’t be a punishment for them unlike regular people who end up on unemployment. Instead it would just mean a pay raise by becoming a corporate lobbyist, professional corporate board member (like Bayh’s wife) or any of a number of other profitable corporatist payoffs for their years of service for voting against what the public want.
Thanks Jane.
I just thought of a name for all the dancing around Obama does about the Public Option…
the Obama two step. eg we make one step forward, he takes two steps back.
The progressive make one step forward, and Obama takes two steps back to appease the Republicans, Blue Dogs, conservadems… aka corporatist representatives.
How many times now have we thought we were making progress in getting a PO in… and then Obama takes it out?
The endless HCR Kabuki theater continues with the 2010 Mid-term election show! Starring Obama himself.
Keep the pressure on Harry Reid to pursue HCR through reconcilation AND keep the PO in.
1-202-224-3542.
why don’t we call blue dogs and centrists “dixiecrats” again? the name might turn a few more people off from them
I used to think Obama was smart. Now I think he’s corrupt. What else explains it?
Has the US Presidency become just another career move on the way to a better position in corporate America?
We want a public option. (Actually, we want to be able to chose government-run health care, Medicare while we watch the insurance companies die.)
That’s what we the people want, and everyone in congress and the White House knows it.
They know it. And they won’t do it.
They are all in pocket burroughs, and this is the pre-reform England Americans used to laugh at for its corruption.
I hate and despise the Republicans, but I’m starting to hate Obama more.
Obama and his chief Gollum are a disaster. If the Democratic party is to survive there has to be a primary challenge. If the U.S. is to survive there needs to be a reinvigorated and redefined Democratic Party. The recent Supreme Court ruling, however, probably makes it all moot.
Actually, your statement should read:
60-75% of the american people support THE CHOICE OF a public option.
Only about 2% of people would actually choose the public option.
The power is in the votes.
We have to elect more liberals in the House and Senate. Let the Republicans take the White House in 2012, and then a real Democrat in 2016.
Of course, the dream would be to primary Obama!
So much for the pivot to jobs.
Continuing in the pattern of working to engender bipartisan support for the demise of their work, the White House has nearly established a world record in destroying a policy thrust. All in one roll of the dice.
1. Piss off his supporters with no public option
2. Piss off the general public with an increased mandate penalty which no one liked even at the lower penalty rate.
3. Piss off the opposition by announcing they are going to stuff it even before the “summit.”
4. Destroyed any PR value of the “summit” since it is plain the die is cast and the WH has a pre-ordained result no matter what happens at the “summit.”
5. Piss off everyone with the rate board since it can’t pass reconciliation and is nothing more than price controls. How about finding out why the amounts billed TO insurance companies keep going up??? Then, fix that, and you fix the insurance rate increases.
6. Doubles down on a bill no one likes and fixes none of the things that the public doesn’t like about it.
Quite a feat.
Talk about Waterloo, this is going to be more like Krakatowa (sp?) for Obama, with both flanks turning on him and firing.
INDENTURED SERVITUDE TO the insurance racket/cabal,and big pharma
i said THANX BUT NO THANX
You forgot “piss off firedog lake” where generally everyone is soooo positive about everything!
last I checked, the public option had support of 6 in 10 Americans.
No one wants to be forced to buy insurance from those piranhas.
(that poll is probably the lowest of the supporting polls.)
In addition, they cut out a provision that benefits millions of unemployed–the HOUSE provision (section 113) to extend COBRA until the exchanges start. This would allow the long-term unemployed to keep their group rating instead of dumping them into the single-buyer market with its 12k plans for an individual, often with high deductibles.
LOL
Anybody for MALAISE?
I am given out. It ain’t going to make a rat’s ass difference what we know or say.
ding!
Well, I had a bunch of things to say, but looking over the previous comments, it’s been pretty well covered. One can only hope that this slap to the head (more like a gut punch) will inspire a drive to real change, not the excuses and status quo we’ve actually got.
End this farce.
Maybe this is all a roundabout way of telling us they’re closing down the party.
Looking for Ted Kennedy’s Seat
Breaking News!
Gottcha!
you have to wonder what is wrong with this president, does he WANT to lose democrats in both houses?
does he WANT to lose re-election?
If the Democratic Party wants a public option in the health care bill, they have the power to put it in it and send it to the president. i don’t recall him saying he’d veto a bill with one.
I’m not sure how the president is supposed to kick off a purportedly bipartisan summit (which for the record I think is a crock and a bad idea…) by reintroducing a key dividing issue after it has been taken out via failed negotiations. If Congress wants a PO, they should pass one.
The president doesn’t dictate the health care bill to the Congress. This is proposal for negotiations. Congress can add a PO.
Anthem to Obama: It is the uninsureds fault. Raise the mandate penalty to 2.5 % of income. We need customers.
Obama to Congress: Don’t even mention a Public Option. We have work to do. We have to get more customers for Anthem. Raise the penalty rate for those who don’t buy Anthem’s insurance to 2.5%.
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup freedom Fighters:
Like I’ve said before, threaten to kill the bill and let the election in November clean up the mess. This gives progressives in the congress leverage…kinda like when a few Republican Senators went to Nixon and told ‘rm the jig was up. Kill the bill and nuthin will get done in congress until November and the only folks to lose will be the Blue Dogs and the corporatists…and I ain’t sure that the fascist Republicans can even threaten ta take back either house since they’re split 3 ways from Sunday inside their base.
And don’t even whisper the words “third party” because that’s the only thing that can save the corporate fascists and Clintonian triangulation.
I wonder if it’s possible for a progressive leadership to emerge from the Senate to push for reconcilliation with a public option and run it through as bein’ 1 trillion dollars cheaper’n the rescusitation of the insurance industry. Of course the closer we get to November the bigger a stock market collapse looks like a death sentence for everyone…it’s a game of chicken like I been sayin and Obama better jump out and leave Rham in the car.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS IS WHERE ALL THE BUCKS GET DUMPED OR SHOT!!
When people are pissed off they’ll take action. You know, like when they were pissed off at George Bush and they worked to elect Barack Obama.
If I was going to be a warrior for the status quo, the most effective thing I could think of to do is to send people out to piss on everyone’s activism, and tell them that action was hopeless so they might as well just stay at home and do nothing.
That has tremendous value in this market. I hope you’re being compensated for your efforts, because I know a lot of people are being paid big $$ these days for that kind of thing. No need to give it away.
FU BARACK…no public option and a big giveaway to the scum at wellpoint so they can keep their private jets flying! Whose team are you on you hateful, lying scumbag!
All I can think of is this is a intentional “Screw You” to the liberals.
It will not make the bill easier to pass, it must serve some purpose.
Ron Paul is against the Senate health care bill too, Norkse. Why are you “making cause” with him?”
How’s that neoliberal ideology workin’ out as a vote getter, Obama?
just received a new premium for a tufts health care policy for my family of 3 healthy members with no pre-conditions:
it has increased from about 1700.00 / month to 1923.00 / month.
the plan has high copy and deductibles, with no dental or eye coverage, other than annual checkup for our child.
and we in massachusetts are mandated to buy this corporate product, or face a hefty fine or jail time!
this robbery called health care is literally making me SICK!
I’ve heard for the past 3 years what a brilliant man Obama is. This boneheaded idea is dumber than a box of air. I hope the bill fails, (even tho it may help a few). I want Obama politically embarrassed. He is such a two-faced rat bastard, he doesn’t deserve to win. Let the shit splatter on him and Rahm. I’m past caring.
That’s rich.
I’m not sure Obama realized what being president of the US actually entails. This is just a gut feeling, but it seems to me that he isn’t all that comfortable in many of the aspects of what Bush called “presidenting.” No links, no sources — just gut reaction.
Despite losing the base Mr. Bipartisan still has the media and the corporations on his side. If only it were possible to mobilize a million people in D.C. to let the Great Pretender know he has lost all favor with the people.
Raven is oddly silent following Jane’s take down. Silence speaks volumes.
The central thrust of this fake “HCR” was and remains to validate what AHIP wants — forced join/pay-in under threat of IRS sanctions/penalties.Steady and increasing cash flows coming in to AHIP with Federal pay outs/subsidies assured for AHIP with built in Federal forced compliance.
Ten years from now? AHIP fail anyway.
What’s not to like?
Barack Obama knows he is covered and his family is covered on the taxpayers tab. Just like the 100 U.S.Senators and 435 House members.
No skin in the game.
Barack Obama was where he is today a year ago with this AHIP/PhRMA sellout.
Same old shit. Increased mandate penalty? Wow. So not impressed.
This is not about the Ds vs. the Rs. This is about this Obama WH playing front man for what AHIP/PhRMA are out to preserve and expand.
More war in Asia? Check. Nobody responsible for torture and torturing? Check. Wall Street crooks not going to jail? Check. No real American HCR and the fix in for what AHIP/PhRMA want and seek to dig in deeper? Check.
Barack Obama’s hopey/changey “yes we can” BS. Pure and 100%.
Obama is officially a blithering idiot.
Citizen Hamsher:
If the progressives are to win in the end on this thing, leadership must rise out of this fight to confront ObamaRhama…if that leadership does emerge, then it will be easier for activists to mobilize at the grassroots in Democratic districts and the fascist Republicans can take some Blue Dog spots but they won’t be enough to mobilze independants. The split in the fascist base works to the advantage of the progressive activists unless someone foolishly tries ta coalesce with the Ron Paul lunatics.
You are right and I stand corrected.
#7 Piss off Firedog Lake
Again, my bipartisan proposal is
1. Single payer
2. strong tort reform
3. Everyone pays something
MikeD — Baucus sent Jim Messina, his chief of staff with health insurance emphasis, to Obama to be an assitant chief of staff to the president — as well as the direct communication link to Baucus. It is likely Obama and Baucus came up with the Senate bill they both wanted and felt they could get through.
I found it noteworthy at the time that someone from Ted Kennedy’s staff was not in WH with Obama. Note worthy and worrisome. Now I realize why….
Obama got the health INSURANCE reform bill he wanted out of the Senate.
BHIP-PPP (Big Health Insurance Parasite Profit Protection Plan)
I want Medicare for All…with a robust private option. Now, NOW, NOW!
The public wants something like Medicare for All.
A commenter at WNYC this morning said Obama’s plan is “corporate mandates with government muscle.”
Which is really corporate shakedowns with government muscle!
This just made my stomach jump and I just want to cry.
Citizen Hamsher:
Ron Paul is an idiot and irrelevant unless someone gives ‘im their constituency…come on Sister, you don’t make coalitions with people who not only don’t share your basic values but don’t have a single vote to give you.
I question your 2% figure for how many people would actually choose the public option if offered. I think all of us, seduced by Obama’s campaign rhetoric, assumed and understood that everyone — not just the uninsured — would have the option of choosing the public option. “If you like your insurance you can keep it, if you don’t you’ll have a public option.” (Close paraphrase of what he actually said.)
And, Obama expressly opposed the odious mandates.
Since no “robust” public option ever made it into even the House bill, it’s an entirely open question what a real public option would look like. I think a “robust” public option, even at twice Medicare rates, would attract a whole lot more than 2%.
We have been betrayed, big time.
I don’t want to cry – I want to break something. I think I might feel better about this if I could understand why it’s being done. I still wouldn’t like it but I am so puzzled why Obama is doing this. It’s a disaster for him and for the Dems, so why don’t they see it?
Sure didn’t see that coming. :)
People need to stand up and say what is the truth in their mind. If they are pissed off, then they need to say so. Nothing will change otherwise.
And, if it is your own side which is pissing you off, even more important. You can be discouraged only if you give up on what you believe. Most people who are pissed are pissed off because they still believe. Pissed off people don’t sit at home on their hands.
So, there is no need to fear that becoming pissed off at being betrayed (though betrayed is too strong a word in this case) will result in apathy. Going along is what results in apathy.
The Art of War!
All war is base on deception.
Obama number one task is to stop the progressive movement. He is an agent of the elites, after eight years of bush, the elites knew a real progressive could win the white house. They developed a good actor name Obama to talk like a progressive and walk like a conservative. Now you know why Obama loves Reagan another actor that was President
Progressives must dump Obama and seek ways to get other rats out of the Democratic party like Ben Nelson, Blanche Lincoln, Max Baucus, etc.
Obama deceived a lot of us and now we must expose him as a complete fraud.
Obama probably want seek re-election in 2012, the elites are looking for another actor to keep Progressive out of power.
Everyone knows or will soon realize Obama want win 2012, so it will be up to us Progressives to develop a real progressive candidate that can win in 2012. (watch and see what Evan Bayh does the next couple of months, will he visit Iowa a lot? the elites don’t want a real progressive to win the white house)
In WAR you must know your enemies.
How the hell did we go from a strong push for the PO from the letter to Barack “I’m a coward” Obama dropping it?
According to Richard Wolffe, one of the official Obama stenographers “bipartisanship” is still goal #1
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-02-21/obamas-favorite-republicans/?cid=hp:mainpromo3
How long can this fool of a president really hope for this? It’s the definition of insane, doing the same thing twice and expecting different results.
We need to seriously talk about a primary challenge. It should be a new main page thing right now. Jane, can we please have a poll not for which member of congress to help, but for who to recruit to primary our DINO of a president.
Citizen Hamsher:
The entire Republican delegation is against the Senate bill too…that’s the point, Dear, threaten to kill an unpopular bill and let ObamaRhama and the fascists take the heat for it. As I have said before, it’s a game of chicken and the last time Rahm played it he made the Democrats blink…this time you force Obama to make the choice.
breaking things, yes. These are tears of rage as well as despair.
For god’s sake, our govt is drowning in corporate money.
The Insurance lobbyists will have more cash to buy congressmen?
Sounds like the sheriffs in the Ol’ South, or, plain highway robbery.
I’ll remember that nest time YOU hit me up.
FDL needs to go back to pushing the 12-14 people on their public option whip count.
I think so! He doesn’t care about his party, the majority of the public or the needs of his people. A one-term sell out. I am not paying one dime in tax for their corrupt rising profits.
IMPEACH Obama. He is crashing the Democrat party. He is deliberately ignoring the needs of our people and their opinions.
There is no reason for the phony bipartisanship, except to stall and deliver a corporate agenda in the name of whatever excuses or obfuscations he can pose with.
I hope this sinks BO’s popularity rating into Cheney territory and he gets the message.
My son was noticing how so much happening today echos the US occupation of the Philippines. Agrarian feudalism coming to a state near you.
shit
I agree with you!
We need to find someone to chanllenge the fool in WHITE HOUSE ASAP!
How stupid are the Blue Dogs Moderate GOPers will get obama the votes he needs to pass this crap however GOP challengers to Blue Dogs will run against Blue Dog votes for this bill.
That trick is old. Why does Charlie Brown/Rahm keep trusting Lucy with the football?
The people want change, they want health CARE, and see government programs as the way to do it:
WaPo poll–6 out of 10
Iowa poll–60% of Indies would support Medicare-like program, flipping from 63% of Indies against current bills.
Why are our Dems being so blind to the needs and desires of the public? Oh, yeah…those drat campaign expenses…. And the revolving door to post-elective office jobs….
GAH… don’t know whether to laugh (for lack of anything else to do) or cry (because it’s just all such a monumental waste). So I’ll revert to my boringly consistent message: gotta feed big Daddy WARBUCK$, eh Barack?
What. A. Joke.
Well, if there was the slightest bit of doubt (quoth the Raven), guess we’ve all seen where Mr. One-Term President stands, and it’s to give his base a big fat old finger up close & personal. He got his from his corporate masters, and we got ye olde eff you.
This is beyond a joke. So, let the chips fall where they may.
If anyone out there believes that BHO, Rahm Emanual or most of the Democratic Party stands for the common rank & file anymore, then you are truly living in a fools paradise. Welcome to the neo-liberal, might as well be Republican, party folks.
Big Daddy WarBuck$ has spoken: give me ALL your money. Just you wait ’till they get done robbing us of Social Security & Medicare. Just you wait….
I think the House well is poisoned. I don’t think even Nancy Pelosi can risk another vote there. ALL those frightened ‘majority makers’ are up for re-election in less than ten months.
The Senate should probably pass the House bill through reconciliation and let Mitch McConnell challenge it in court under the Byrd rule. Or get a parliamentarian who’ll let the Democrats do it without objection.
It might be Democrats’ only hope of holding both Houses this fall.
Citizen DanR:
Now you’re talkin, Brother Dan…can you convince the leader of the FDL contingent to put our muscle back behind progressives instead of lunatic Teabaggers?
Please ignore the troll.
Isn’t astonishing how blatant these sellouts have become, and in such a short time? I was reading just now over at Naked Capitalism a great screed by Mashall Auerback about Goldman’s involvement in the Greek debt affair and how our own government has been complicit in it. The thing is these corporate predators are barely even trying anymore to disguise their depredations. Corporatists like Obama aren’t either.
A thought… but I don’t think it matters. BHO got all the messages he intends to get… from the corporations. He don’t give a rat’s patoot about any “messages” from US citizens. Citizens are fungible. Money talks, and Big Daddy WarBuck$ has spoken.
Thank you Jane.
I’ve been waiting for that for some time around here.
This has undoubtedly been better expressed by others, but I need to add my 2 cents. What will it take to penetrate the titanium shield preventing the White House from understanding what the public wants and needs- not to mention what the business community actually needs in cost savings even if they’re too dumb to want it? Thanks for letting me vent.
Agreed, but I think it also has to do with the Internet, and how it’s harder for them to hide it. But then again, why should they hide anything? What does it matter? Who’s there to stop them?
We can rant & rave, as can the Tea Party. And as Dick Cheney says: “SO????”
At this point, I’d vote for Ron Paul over Obama. At least he’s not bought and paid for and he would get to work on reeling in the MIC and FIRE.
Citizen Teddy Partridge:
The point is reconcilliation with the public option…Pelosi wouldn’t hafta whip for anything except gettin the Stupid Amendment back to the mortuary.
And also reminding me of Menem’s selling off all of Argentina’s national industries to private corporations for cents on the dollar of their actual values: their railroads, their airline, their natural gas deposits and production facilities, their national telephone and TV industry; and, buying off their unions and selling out their workers. At least the people there rose up and took to the streets with their pots and pans until they toppled the government. I don’t think we are there yet.
The White House doesn’t give a rat’s patoot. That’s the message. What the base or the citizens want is completely, totally & utterly irrelevant. We. don’t. matter.
The only thing that matters is what the corporations want. Period. The end.
A lot of Rich GOPers won’t comply Obama should make the fees grow in combination with assets and income. Lots of Rich Right Wing Moneybags will not comply Glen Beck, Rush etc. A 2.5 penalty is nothing to them publicly defying Obama priceless.
Lets see if his team has the will to defy the rich and the political smarts to steal this idea.
No, not quite. Citizens are still “too wealthy” for that to happen, but sadly, we may yet be sliding to that point. But it’ll take a while for the US citizens to really get the message and hit the streets. Not there yet.
KLynn — This sounds intriguing. Can you give the jist of his argument? I know the US occupation of the Phillapines was terribly bloody and the US killed a lot of people, but I don’t know all that much about it. Thnx!
I’m completely convinced Obama and his administration wants the health care reform bill to fail. I think they are having this forum Thursday to try lay the ground work going into the November elections to blame the Republicans. They actually think this strategy will work. And on another note, if this is what Rahm Emanuel thinks qualifies as “liberal” legislation, he’s farther gone than I thought, and we are really screwed.
So what’s holding you back?
Because after the November election the party that loses the House normally elects a new Speaker.
Maybe if the Public Option was made Robust, or Rubenesque, or Rotund more people would sign on, but 2% isn’t a guess. That comes from the CBO, and on second glance, that may be just 1%.
Obama is not just failing a moderate or progressive movement desired by most Americans on social issues, he is turning out to be the worst President in the last one hundred years in comparison to the amount of Washington reform needed.
I hope Rahm is gone tomorrow but that doesn’t solve the issue. Obama is a man of rhetoric rather than action. A politician embraces rhetoric. A leader embraces action. Obama needs to make the transition for go down in history as one of our worst Presidents.
I hope those involved in the cult of personality will wake up. They are doing Obama a great disservice.
I could easily be wrong, but this is such a monumental clusterfuck I don’t see anything passing. Seems to me to be a last doomed effort by Obama to stay in good graces with the insurance companies. The man disgusts me, truly.
Citizen Paula T:
You don’t think he’s bought and paid for??!!@! My God, he’s a corporatist’s wet dream…he’s the pure form of American fascism WITH the unapologetic racism. If you think Ron Paul is gunna support public healthcare, or the Civil Rights Act or the Voting Rights Act you’re not playin with all the cards…and that’s the point, he has only the pure fascists and he doesn’t bring ANYthing or any votes to our side. Good lord, wake up!!
BO does not care. He is set for life.
The Presidency
The voting class can kiss my ass
I got the Presidency at last.
You can tell old Joe I’m off the dole -
He can stick his Left Wing up his ‘ole!
This is not change we can believe in.
It’s more of the same Corporate control that got us to where we are today.
Obama = Fail
I thought you were kicking in $10 or $20 a month without being asked?
The thing is these corporate predators are barely even trying anymore to disguise their depredations. Corporatists like Obama aren’t either.
The complicity of a lazy, stupid, sold-out MSM does a very good job of enabling such behavior.
thing is, and I am NOT letting Obama off the hook here, the thing is anyone running as independent of corporate $$$ is either lying and going to sell us out, or they will be crushed under the machine.
It’s like Little Shop of Horrors. The monster is just too big now.
We need to have a revolution in the Democrat party. Throw out those that aren’t smart enough to take a hike and the sooner the better. Enough of this crap for policy. Obama harms the people and helps the rich with corporate welfare for all.
Tax the rich. Cap corporate profits. Enforce and regulate as you are paid by us to do or get the hell out of government.
Why hide when any meaningful penalty is dependent upon energetic enforcement by your stooges & staff?
I’m not really of the doomer-despondent caste, but it’s becoming harder for me to avoid thinking that the “looking forward” policy is the ultimate stratagem for Authority Without Responsibility.
Because if you can ignore blatant trillion-dollar graft & warcrimes, the world is yours to take.
Citizen TCU:
Yep and that’s the point isn’t it, if she wants to save her damned job she’ll face down Rahm…Jesus, that’s where our efforts hafta be, face down the corporatists in Rahm’s game of chicken…and Ron Paul isn’t gunna get us a single vote!
KO on the mandate….
“Health care reform that benefits the industry at the cost of the people is intolerable and there are no moral constructs in which it can be supported. And if still the bill and this heinous mandate become law there is yet further reaction required. I call on all those whose conscience urges them to fight, to use the only weapon that will be left to us if this bill becomes law. We must not buy federally mandated insurance if this cheesy counterfeit of reform is all we can buy.
No single payer? No sale. No public option? No sale. No Medicare buy-in? No sale. I am one of the self-insured, albeit by choice. And I hereby pledge that I will not buy this perversion of health care reform. Pass this at your peril, Senators, and sign it at yours, Mr. President. I will not buy this insurance. Brand me a lawbreaker if you choose. Fine me if you will. Jail me if you must.
But if the Medicare Buy-In goes, but the Mandate stays, the people who fought so hard and so sincerely to bring sanity to this system must kill this mutated version of their dream, because those elected by us to act for us have forgotten what must be the golden rule of health care reform. It is the same one to which physicians are bound, by oath: First do no harm.”
What he said.
So, the
SOB, sorry the President starts with a corrupt corporate serving plan and is ready to negotiate to make it worse? He is either determined to be a one-term, bribed President or to be the Republican nominee in 2010. Fucking monster…the fire knows.
IMHO we need to flex our muscle in the House primaries.
My bold.
From Chomsky’s Profit Over People, Chap 2, pg 47
I gave that up when Noriega was pumped up here.
I particularly like the framing of the media message. Liberals are “afraid” and must overcome their “fear” when in reality it is the liberals who are looking out for the people who can’t afford mandates without a public option.
Chage the highlight:
Now the question they didn’t ask:
Would you actually give up your insurance to take that choice?
The CBO thinks not.
So who is getting your cash?
I wonder what would happen if voters went on “strike” and didn’t vote at all.
“Obama is not just failing a moderate or progressive movement desired by most Americans on social issues, he is turning out to be the worst President in the last one hundred years in comparison to the amount of Washington reform needed.”
Holy Cow, Batman, you forgot Bush II already or his father who should be infamous for saying, “I don’t care about the facts”?
I think Jane should primary Bozo-bama.
Because he doesn’t care about us, and he’s set for life. I mean, I really can’t imagine why else he would do this. He doesn’t care about Republicans taking over. That’s only a disaster if you’re not rich.
You may get an answer to that in November.
Gee. I was right but provoked such a reaction. Hmmmmm?
Citizen transparait:
Yep, “…I don’t see anything passing” is the worst case for ObamaRahma and it’s the only thing that kills Obama’s chances of winning in 2012. The worst case for the White House is NOT the worst case for the people…passing this awful bill is the worst case for the country.
The doggie eye doctor
so which move in the 11 dimensional chess game is this? from my 3d perspective it looks like the obama admin is simply a smoother talking, weaker and more sniveling, bush admin, but maybe my lack of extra-dimensional opera glasses is casuing me to miss something…
obama and his ilk have thrown the bus in reverse to run back over the progressives.
I posted this on another thread and probably EPU’d, so I’m posting it here too, in hopes of getting an answer.
On KO last week, Lawrence O’Donnell said emphatically that there are “several” procedural things that would occur during reconciliation (or leading to it) that would require 60 votes, so he was pretty pessimistic about reconciliation as a means to get meaningful HCR.
I tend to trust what he says about these things because of his previous role in government. But I haven’t read or heard any others raise the procedural issues. Does anyone know?
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is ready: Glenn Beck Tells Republicans Exactly What They Want to Hear at CPAC, Media Call It Brave Criticism
The thing that is so strange in reading the comments today is that the most common thread seems to be that those in DC are not listening to the public.
Each side, for independent and different reasons, thinks that their input and desires are being ignored. Both feel that they are being made to accept something they don’t want. Again, for different and independent reasons.
I don’t recall seeing something like this happen ever before.
You would think you were listening to two completely different stories about two issues. But you aren’t. It is one issue, one bill, but each side feels stuffed by what is going on. And, each side feels very strongly that they are being stiff-armed.
That is very unique in politics.
This Health Care Stinker is complete surrender to the Insurance/Pharma Death Panels. It will never pass, because it is more taxpayer giveaways to more corporations.
I am guessing FireDogLake will get the credit/blame when this dreadful sellout epically fails.
Citizen BooRadley:
Who’s got any cash left ta give, Brother? Ain’t that the point here??!!!
The Situation is not hopeless we just need a leader with a plan someone not in the leadership but who can convince more Dems to back him than the insurance lobby can get Moderate GOPers to cross over and vote for this.
I don’t think there are many Moderate GOPers left. Anyway Obama needs a Win or else he wasted a year he needs a big win or else his entire agenda on everything will get linked to a year of failure.
Its better to sacrifice one pawn ( Healthcare) than it is to lose the whole game. Its necessary to sacrifice pieces even those you really really want like the queen to win no Chess Grandmaster wins without losing pieces.
Obama does not like to lose pieces.
Our plan Progressives hold up a deal until we get National Healthcare forget details etc just translate the French plan into English and we have a bill.
Government can hire the low level staff from the insurance companies to administer the plan. That solves unemployment concerns the Big Executives with all their skills can go Gault.
This can’t pass you say? Wrong when has Obama ever shown a Spine its time to make him ours instead of the GOP’s Obama only goes with Bad Boys.
Pathetic.
Freeloader.
I remember when we all used to put up with your complaining, because you thought we were too hard on Barry.
That ship sailed now didn’t it?
well said norske re worst case. thx.
This place does not run on air. Bandwidth costs. Software upgrades cost. High quality reporters cost.
I will keep watching this site for a call to action. Count me in.
How many people dropped everything and went to DC to see Obama’s inauguration? I’m thinking a hell of a lot of them would show up for a march on Washington. Plus the tens of thousands more that have become uninsured since then due to job loss. A million should be no problem. All we need is a leader. Any sugestions?
Raven, I always cut soldiers a lot of slack.
You can do better.
Well gee, the place is overrun with “activists” shouldn’t be too hard to find one.
I’ve observed that Raven likes to stand on the edges and throw spitballs. Perhaps the observation is accurate, but the contribution to the discussion falls a bit short…
We put up because he shares our ideas. I have been on Obama trying to push him Left and have been disappointed and I have argued with Raven still I try and keep it about ideas.
He supports Obama this is a Dem blog surely we have a big enough tent for Obama supporters.
This guy.
That’s probably because the political center goes down the middle of Rahm’s desk.
Uh, for the record, I don’t “support” Obama. He’s no different than anyone who ever has or ever will be the fucking president of this country. Take that to the bank.
His agenda as he has shown it to be in his actions, is worth not enacting and is worth a good walloping failure.
Sooner of later we’re all going to feel the hammer of Corporate power come down on us. After the TARP bailouts, all the other CEO’s thought: “hmmmmm…the Financial Services Corporations got Billions in bonuses and THEY screwed up. So……we should be entitled to the same treatment or better.” And so they hired a bunch more lobbyists and began to line up for their share of the Corporate Welfare.
Interesting that when you look at Wall Street analysts revenue/earnings and profit for some of the Insurance Corporations, their projected revenue increase is about the same or less than the increase in their premiums. That means, they are not increasing customers and doing the same or less business. At the same time, their PROFITS and margins are INCREASING. Obviously they have absolutely no fear of any downside from the price increases. Same with Big Pharma, medical equipment and supply Corporations, etc. Monopolies are nice, huh. Control of Government REALLY NICE.
If you noticed, I also said the PO is what the corporations need – they can’t live with these high costs either. Just for the record.
Pelosi doesn’t need to pass anything if the Senate passes the House bill as is.
Stupak can be subject to a signing statement, and ignored.
Glad my irony brought you out.
Yes that strategy of just convincing the opposition their cause is hopeless has been learned well by the GOP and Rahm Emanual.
My crosspost from John’s article:
“..that health care reform, despite the poll numbers, is still a good idea.“!?! RCP Average: For/Favor=38.2 Against/Oppose=52.5 Spread=Against/Oppose +14.3 (NOTE: that includes the left-wing Newsweek’s spread of 9 and left-wingers ABC News/Wash Post’s ridiculous spread of 3, i.e. single digit spreads. IMO, the election of Scott Brown is a better indicator of the actual spread.)
The mandate to buy health insurance, which rises from 2% to 2.5% will certainly help the Democrats to continue losing young “millennial” voters. Whats next? A mandate that forces all Americans to carry a bible or koran?
Citizen BooRadley:
When it comes down to it, that’s the danger of playin’ to a “progressive” market, we don’t have any fuckin’ cash…that’s why we vote for real progressives.
Ideas shouldn’t require a consensus before the fact. A general consensus could arise from the discussions but should never be forced or required.
TCU, I am at least a year removed from being heavily into the comments. It is my loss.
My primary concern with Raven is the lack of financial support.
Over the weekend Howie Dean and friends tried to hit me up for a cnote to support the public option.
I knew from reading FDL, that the po was not going to pass.
Jane saved me $100.
This place provides great value and it deserves to be supported.
I am a big tent guy. I had no problem voting for Obama over McSane in a two horse race. I doubt I will have a problem voting for Obama over Palin or whatever other nutcase they nominate. I will not however, give Barry any money. I think the best place for that is in House primaries, where we have the best chance to build a strong progressive block. I am, however, always open to new and better ways of looking at things.
Yes, but.
How many senators of the 20 whatever who signed the Bennet kabuki letter are now going to turn around and vote for a bill without it? Are they really that stupid? And then getting the house to sign on to the senate bill without the PO? Obama’s out on his own on this one. That is why Rahm’s looking to bug out.
Not sure about the sex but this may have been one of the other guys that had the job in the past.
Probably some issues around procreation versus recreation might arise as well.
Citizen Teddy Partridge:
You’re preachin’ ta the choir, dear, except that I don’t trust Obama and neither should you…so reconcile this bastard of a bill with a public option. And ObamaRahma are tryin ta kill the bill and blame it on the progressives and I’m sain’ “bring it on”…at some point we force Obama to choose between Rahm and ultimate failure at the polls.
Obama ‘n Rahm! Mercenaries on a four-year misssion! They’re securin’ all they can for the big corporate brands! Real progressive stompin’ action before a 2012 safe extraction!
Now playing at a charity clinic or soup kitchen near you!
But you do not have the right to demand that people give IMO
Is there a way we can recall Obama?
I’m glad your irony got me taken to the woodshed!
If we don’t listen to Raven’s concerns we lose Obama supporters and our choices will be made on data that disregards their views.
We will then be guilty of the same political mistakes we accuse Obama of when he ignores us. We are the Weaker party so we must be better than those in power we can’t afford not to listen.
Disagree with Raven all you want fine but listen where does his voice come from why? Its like dealing with Dark people tolerance, listen and since they don’t get listened to much expect them to be angry sometimes.
Raven’s is a minority view here now he stays because he agrees with us on a lot of stuff I’ll take him and his attitude way before I take the Paulities.
I would add in the general election as well. The House can, repeat can, be our stronghold but there’s a lot of work to be done between here and there.
Obama is not going to concede defeat at the hands of the left readily or easily. This is one arrogant sold out bastard who is a true believer in the service of corporate america.
He needs to be presented with an equal amount of resistance from the left not with the intent of winning him over because that will never happen. Instead with the intent of defeating him in the polls. Every effort to separate willing congress people from the plans Obama has in store for HCR and to lend them support seems like a worthy tactic.
A method needs to be devised whereby a leftist agenda (which reflects the majority of voters) can be achieved independently of the interference from Obama. In any case a clear repudiation of Obama and what he stands for should be made very clearly and strongly from the left.
Well said, I agree. I increasingly see Obama as someone not having particularly high moral character.
Yes.
Thank you.
I did not mean to imply otherwise.
Citizen BooRadley:
If you think that Obama could run for Dog Catcher in Cook County and win if Rahm pulls this off and splits up the coalition that Obama put together to get elected then you’re workin’ from a different political physics than I am.
Sorry did not mean to put words in your mouth just trying to help. My comment on 155 was written before I saw your comment.
Where I’m wrong feel free point it out.
Aw, no prob at all.
Posalutely!
Why the hell did this more than normally flawed human being ever want to become president?
You better steer clear of this one.
Citizen SouthernDragon:
“The House can, repeat can, be our stronghold but there’s a lot of work to be done beween here and there.”
And that work starts right here on this issue and reconcilliation, if the House stands firm and the progressives in the Senate don’t cave on the public option and the bill fails it will be ObamaRahma and the fascists who lose in November.
I can support your ideas the tone is what got me but we all get a bit testy here at times. No fowl I ‘m sorry I probably over reacted.
Boo’s cool.
If people are really fed up, they will file, but not pay their federal income taxes.
For people who are not prepared to take that step, I think donating monthly to Jane and Marcy makes a helluva lot of sense. It does not mean you agree with every statement. It means you value a place that provides timely and accurate information about the political economy.
FDL PAYS A HUGE PRICE, BECAUSE IT IS NOT IN THE VEAL PEN.
FDL has to work twice as hard to get the news.
The fact that for some of us, it is hip, snarky, and fun, is just an added value.
Truth is truth.
(Satire liveth! As Raven showeth)
Peace … and good humor to all.
DW
Thanks Raven.
Citizen Raven:
These folks don’t understand that you are reality as presently constructed and that progressive politics means changin’ that reality…instead these poor fuckers are shootin’ at the wrong targets and lookin for love in all the wrong places like in Ron Paul’s bedroom…instead of sayin’ “yeah, you’re right but I’m gunna fight anyway” they come after you as though you don’t have any right to tell ‘em they have no cloths on.
Truth is truth.
Boo-tifully put.
Heh I’ve been at it since the 80s. You’d think I’d have learned to hate this shit by now.
We’ll have to send em to the Chaplain and get their cards punched for their daily personal problem. Did they have those in the Navy? Mr Tar?
NorskeFlamethrower….. Because you don’t agree with Paul on issues, you claim he’s paid off??? By whom? About 90% of his campaign cash came from small contributors. He doesn’t support any Government spending for the Corporations. He voted against the TARP bailouts which were supported by the vast majority of Democrats and many Republicans. He votes against War spending. His kids are successful and don’t have Lobby jobs, or work for Corporations. So, where is the pay off you claim?
As far as Fascist, Fascists were and are in favor of large powerful Government. Wow, THAT’S not Paul. Usually Fascists are usually pro war, again not Paul. So, let me guess; your definition of Fascist is someone who does not agree with you?
Earlier today I noted there are other well informed folks who see this much differently than many here.
http://www.princeton.edu/~starr/articles/articles10/Starr_UnderratingReform_3-2010.pdf
The predominant view here is not without substance, but there is an epistemic arrogance concerning HCR that is a bit much.
now you’ve gone and done it
Citizen Raven:
God doesn’t listen ta Squids, Brother Raven, so they don’t need no stinkin’ Chaplains.
rut ro
I’m innerested in watchin’ tango57 try dancing with Norske.
You got popcorn or sumthin’?
Looks to be … educational, if Norske obliges.
DW
Thats why I was saying I over reacted:)
Citizen tango57:
Those aren’t asparin you’re takin for the headache, Citizen, they’re stupid pills…and by the way, how’s the weather on that side a the moon, can ya tune in the Olympics.
Looks like he went easy on the fng.
Nah, only the big ships had sky pilots. Anybody could go see the chaplain anytime they wanted. We did have one with the boats. Most decorated chaplain in the Navy, iirc. Was on one of the Monitors when it was ambushed. OIC was between the rear turrets and took most the blast from a B-40. Chaplain tried to save him and stayed in the line of fire during the firefight. Got a Bronze Star for that one, iirc. Got a pic of him with Ernie Banks on a USO visit to the MRF.
Dammit, people; the Titanic is NOT sinking.
Sailing along with half the ship underwater and the other half sticking up at a 30 degree angle is VERY fuel efficient.
Citizen Raven and DWBartoo:
I gotta go take care a my daughter’s new Sliver Lab puppy and then get ready ta take my OTHER daughter to an interview for a grad school in Evanston.
[Edited by Moderator: Derogatory references to others were predictably deleted.]
let’s play two!
I don’t think blaming Obama for everything is necessarily the only way to go here. Remember that the corporations select our political candidates, and that they could always have selected another such specimen.
My old man coached at Evanston High way back when!
Back to work.
Namaste
Erm … mebbe.
Dependalates on whether the dancer be satisfied with a casual glance across da flow …
I love your comment
Damn straight! Spring training’s here.
Wow, I’d never heard of that breed! Look like smart weimaraners.
Uh, Norske’s dog gone …
‘Nother time … unless the Norseman sticks with his puns.
LOL
I was trying to clam a share of the woodshed with you.
That’s a phrase one probably won’t see too often. An exaggerated sense of knowledge.
Appears to be a pompous way to say everyone, except perhaps yourself, doesn’t know what they are talking about because Paul Starr, whoever he is, is so much more verbose and uses real big words.
That would be the guy that holds the Stuart Chair in Communications and Public Affairs at the Woodrow Wilson School which is highly influenced by Robert Rubin who famously helped with Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act perhaps. Yeah that’s the guy on whom I’ll blindly base my decisions.
that’s the comment I was waiting to see, sometimes the truth is just… there.
Oh, if only we could get people pissed off ENOUGH – enough to take to the streets, enough to write and protest and yell and scream – enough to take back our country! I just wish we could find where “enough” is, to motivate the people!
Royal Oak, I think you are going to get your wish.
99% of the USA is pissed that Obama and Dems are talking about the HCR scam and not JOBS.
Obama and Dems are using the HCR scam as a diversion to advoid the Job Bill.
With the levels of poverty in the USA sky rocketing a lot of will be living on the streets, making it very easy to find people to yell and scream at the current GOVT.
I don’t see much in the PDF dealing with the main claim typically made by supporters of the public option — that penalties for noncompliance with the insurer regulations are inadequate, and enforcement typically unable to compete with the legal might of the insurers. So a public option is necessary to force insurers to compete with an entity which is guaranteed to pay your claims.
The government may be able to force people to buy insurance, and insurers to offer policies, but payment of claims is where it hits the fan.
“Epistemic arrogance” is when this sort of claim isn’t addressed in an ostensibly “complete” argument.
Right in. And don’t forget “overwhelm” -no need to obfuscate. We need real help in this country.
The truth would be a good beginning.
(Some deeper diggings may be seen over at EW’s place, RoyalOak …)
And Good Example, in terms of behavior… which are, daily, seen at FDL …
DW
the states are broke, trying to keep up with their benefit payouts to corporates, and taxes are skyrocketing though most tax payers are worth a whole lot less. it’s only a matter of time before the house of lies and injustice crashes hard.
A march would be best when many companies are shut down, like the 4th of July.
The problem is there’s no one to lead it.
We’re all fed up, we just don’t have a movement leader we all believe in, because there isn’t one.
don’t follow leaders
watch your parkin meters
Thank you for bringing up the quantity/how much is enough question. A good case in point is war dead. Having lived through the Viet Nam War, there was a period where war casualties were not an issue with the public. Somewhere along the line, perhaps 50,000, the public said no more and began to make demands.
I think about this daily. What is the “magic number” of dead in Afghanistan/Iraq? What is the magic number of jobs lost? Unemployed? Foreclosures? Bankrupt/killed by the health care insurers? Suicides due to economic hard times?
There is a tipping point where the public will abandon their tolerance of the status quo. Obama seems to be all about testing those limits.
Hmmm, I think you mean Barrington Chadsworth IV’s new health care bill
http://www.salon.com/entertainment/comics/this_modern_world/2010/02/01/this_modern_world/story.jpg
What do you think that Obama wants the people to do, medicinecat?
If you are correct about his testing the limits of tolerance?
Nothing or something?
And, if something, then what might that be?
Sadly, 60-75% of the American people only account for maybe 8% or 9% of the nations incomes. And since money is now the currency of free speech and elections….
It seems like Rahm and Obama just count the dollars, not the people.
Obama goal is to destroy the progressive movement period.
It is not logical and is not good strategy for the leader of the Dem party to make his party discuss a bill that the base of his party hates in an election year, when the only topic of discussion should be jobs.
The question we must ask HOOVER OBAMA, is why are we talking about Health Care? during the great depression?
The idea total disconnect is to weak to apply to HOOVER Obama and some Dems.
So we must assume that Obama is doing this on purpose.
Obama is working with the GOP, the current HCR scam bill is a GOP bill for all practical purposes, just like NAFTA was a GOP plan.
Progressive must stop being nice!
Politics are war, nice people always lose in this game.
Progressive do you hear that? nothing!
Is there not one true Progressive in Congress that is going to call Obama out for being a liar and traitor to the Democratic Party?
To win a battle, you need soldiers who will fight for you.
We progressive need some soldiers and we need to kick the rats out of the Dem Party like Ben Nelson, Max Baucus, Rahm, Blanche Lincoln, ASAP.
The motto on our coins now reads, “IN GOLD WE TRUST”.
The change happened sometime last century …
But only appeared last week.
DW
Hey, Jane…
Think you could wrangle an interview with Howard Dean and get his take on this latest “proposal”?
As it happens I will be going to a demonstration/hopefully meeting with my Congressman tomorrow But I hate to admit that is more out of habit.
In my view for the people to get roused to action it will require a more coherent message and especially an alternative leadership.
We need a movement. And it can’t be built on passive negativism.
50,000? There were 50,000 American deaths by early 69. I think your timeline is a bit off.
I agree and with the rest of your post. The first thing is we must recognize and accept that the death of liberalism is ObamaRahma’s first goal. Actually he did run on it. Fools like me just tried to believe the change in the way things are done meant he was a closet liberal. He isn’t.
Interesting how just when Senator Bennet was actually taking steps to get the bill moving, and including a public option which would take the toxicity out of the legislation, the White House undercuts him with an ‘official’ plan. How could any more Senaors cosponsor Bennet’s bill when the official party position is now different.
This is dirty, dirty politics.
Not completely disagreeing except that I think you might be a bit generous in this situation. The third paragraph is as good as any to show the substance of the guy who was the senior advisor for President Bill Clinton’s proposed health care reform plan in 1993.
His position is pure Gruber, unconcerned with how businesses and wages actually work. Blithely ignoring the fact that the bill attempts to address insurance as if it were interchangeable health care costs. But the kicker is the red, bolded defense of the apologists.
Overstate the difference between a request for adequate provisions by saying that doing the right thing is the same as requesting immaculate conception. Not that immaculate conception makes any sense in this context of a bill. The ongoing DLC argument telling the liberals to sit down and eat their porridge.
Did you notice, Tango, that [Edited by Moderator] did NOT answer your question? Suddenly he has to walk the dog. That’s been my overall experience with the [Edited by Moderator]: A lot of bad-ass talk until you come at him with a thoughtful challenge. Then he runs off behind a tree.
Wanna see him really flip his lid? Mention Nader. The only candidate this nation has fielded since FDR who was worth a shit.
Personally, I think Ron Paul is a bit loopy, but I’m willing to listen to anybody who rejects “business as usual” in this insane country. Tell us more.
[Mod Note: No need for calling other commenters names]
Ding!
Love you Jane.
NorskeFlamethrower Another personal attack with another non answer. What a surprise.
yeah me too DW ….. thought i might learn something from the two step
but guess the thrower is all danced out for now …dog gone shame …
Personal attacks are fine as long as you are anointed or self-appointed.
I think Obama’s playing a game of “chicken”. He’s betting progressives will complain, then grudgingly show up to vote Dem on election day. The old “where you gonna’ go” routine.
I think he’s playing a very dangerous game. For his base not to show up, to just sit back on the couch and put our feet up is way, way too easy.
I have some serious doubts about the character and stability of a person who practices this type strategy. Will we see similar, take it to the edge brinkmanship on other issues, esp. Iran?
GDC707 Yep, I noticed. NorskeFlamethrower has the fire of a wet match.
As far a Paul goes, I’m with you on anything that shakes up DC and gets rid of the Corporations occupation of DC. I’m tired of the Corporate extortion. “If you don’t give us what we want: we’ll crash the economy or screw up your health care, or poison your food, wreck your environment etc.” I’ve come to the conclusion that if we give more power to DC, it just draws in more Lobbyist trash…… Take TARP for example, the first thing the Banks did with the cash is hire more lobbyists. Then they hired a bunch of PR people to convince the American people that the Billions they got saved us!!! So, I’ve come to the conclusion that if we shrink Government a la Ron Paul, we can starve the bastards. If there isn’t a bigger pie, we can get them to turn on each other in their greed. A tactic I admit, but one that has possibilities.
you two should get a room
Likethat…… Sorry, I’m not good at dancing with [Edited by Moderator].
You won’t starve the bastards. YOU will be living under a bridge and eating from dumpsters. Paul is not your friend.
yea, you’re a fucking genius now aren’t you?
Or he didn’t know what he was talking about in the first place. More likely.
How’s that no personal attack working out there Mod?
People didn’t care for my reference to epistemic arrogance. That’s fine, it might have been a too much.
Perhaps, this says what I am getting at better. It is confirmation bias.
It is the tendency to reaffirm our beliefs rather than to contradict them.
I know I am guilty of this and so are some of the commenters here.
I tend to instinctively defend Obama. It seems to me that many are
prone to doing the opposite.
alan1tx — Thanx for the suggestion on highlighting. Wish I’d done it in time.
Re: CBO’s conclusion about people keeping their private health insurance. 1) That was determined prior to the huge premium increases and 2) it is possible those who get their coverage mostly paid by employers might feel OK with keeping their parasites…until the employer decides the cost is not worth it or they get tired of all the gotchas, denials, need for referrals, etc.
Raven Well gee, thanks for the compliment!
You may be right but I sense a real loathing for liberalism and, if not loathing, fear of the ordinary people. I think he and Rahm Emanual may be hoping to GOP style annihilate us, even if it costs the party short or long term.
You want a reaction? You want feedback?
Write a diary and make your case
we aim to please
Read “The Imperial Cruise” by James Bradley and be sure to take part in the Book Salon of this book on March 7.
Another nail in the One World Order box. And we can’t blame it on the White Christian Male, as outlined in TIC above.
I agree. Don’t rock the corporate boat and he and his family are set financially for multiple generations. Plus he will receive all the deference and veneration our networks can confer on members of the political celebrity class. What’s to lose? Integrity has very little value these days.
BTW There’s some problem with the current post. I can’t get to page 2 and judging from the small number of comments I think others must have the same problem.
Paul Blumenthal of Sunlight Foundationn was on Fresh Air today discussing his Feb. 12th piece on the role of Billy Tauzin in securing Obama’s PhRMA deal. Very sad, very depressing.
Obama was very secretive about meeting with Tauzin and drug company leaders, which made sense since he had used Tauzin as a poster bad boy of lobbyist’s influence and the revolving door between politicians and lobbying. Obama demanded that Tauzin and the others work on the health insurance bill soley through Max Baucus.
Which made having Baucus’ former chief of staff, Jim Messina, on staff as an ass’t chief of staff to the president a very, very good idea. Instant communications and control.
Not a surprise that the Senate bill is the one Obama stick closest to — Baucus probably wrote nothing not blessed by ObamaRahma. And a good reason that no one from Ted Kennedy’s staff was brought into the WH to assist in passing Sen. Kennedy’s greatest dream….
Audio available at the Fresh Air link (about 25 minutes). The second link has links for two Blumenthal articles.
Twain, We may all be under that bridge if things keep up….. By the way, how is your tactic working? Unless you’re pro Corporation and pro War, very rich, or in the political/media class, I’d guess not too well. So, I’ll choose my own path. If it’s a mistake, I’ll live with it.
dear raven …aim to please me if you will … i sincerely don’t
understand the derision of ron paul (not from u ofcourse) i agree with
thrower’s concerns regarding repug strategy to split up the vote but
to deride someone who has for years opposed US foreign interventionist
policys …. has opposed US economic policy ….. has sought to audit and expose the FED ….
well certainly i’ve been duped before .. which is why i’m asking for the real skinny on this guy …. can you or thrower or someone give me some
links to sink my teeth into …
respectfully LT ..
Actually I quite like it — it fits you so well.
Anyone here thinking a presidential primary challenge by Dr. Howard Dean is a good idea for 2012? I think many Democratic mice are beginning to realize their choices in 2008 were between a Siamese cat and a Tabby cat.
YOu shouldn’t have been taken to the woodshed for speaking the truth.
Yes, like most people I am sometimes guilty of epistemic arrogance. I admit to that.
I try to stay away from, not always successfully, ad hominem attacks on individuals I have a good faith diffference of opinion with.
Sometime, if you would like to civilly discuss our differences, I will be around.
My disagreement with Ron Paul is around his wanting to eliminate things I consider essential, public education being just one. Outside of that, his belief that there should be not separation between christian churches and government, the American First Party candidate that he endorsed in the previous election being fairly troublesome.
Short of that there are plenty of other things that I can agree with, his view of the solution to the Fed may be a bit more radical than I might like but maybe not. Getting out of the middle-east occupation business is definitely a plus.
The phrase was probably less of a problem than the fact that it’s use suggested an attempt to slyly attack those that would disagree with your linked text more or less preemptively. Obfuscated statements that suggest superior knowledge on a clearly debatable subject are just bound to raise some folks hackles. Me being one.
fuck it if they can’t take a joke
I’ve thought for some time that Obama/Rahm’s plan is to prove that the Democratic Party can be as big-business friendly as the Republican Party. Maybe even more so. To do this, he’ll need to prove that he can deliver the goods for his corporate patrons. Hence, this awful “health insurance reform bill”.
But for the real icing on the cake, he’ll need to prove that Dems can get elected without progressive/liberal support. In other words, he’s planning our extinction. His sights are on independents to replace us. That’s why so much talk about “bipartisanship”. I think some “expert” told him that independents like to hear that word.
That is my thinking also.
He really doesn’t even want our votes.
“Independent voters” are really much more reliable for his style. They tend to vote on personality and or single simply stated issues.
Were you “around” for post #202?
thanks alot tempting …that should get me started
Thanks Jane.
Obama’s squandered 13 months of governance shows only one priority — re-election in 2012, Chicago Style. They don’t even care about the 2010 carnage that they’ve sown since 1/20/09.
E.J. Dionne is right.
Of course this this oath keeper connection can’t be all good either.
So I might have missed a few things.
No.
But, having now read and considered it, your point seems valid.
Just to make one thing clear, I claim no particlar expertise on HCR. I do have some knowledge of politics and our constitutional system. As such,
I have been less critical of this flawed product and forgiving of those that produced it than others.
Pointy birds, fwiw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU4RD2f2BnY
I agree. We have to start to push past the Dems. No help is ever ever ever fucking going to come from that direction. The party has totally sold out its base and it thinks it can easily get away with any outrage and continue to use progressive framing to boot. We need to think along the lines of a new Labour /small business / small farmer based party. Working people and small business / framer people that are not connected to State power have nowhere to go.
True Conservative is Teddy Roosevelt style: Remove Anti-trust exemption with splitting existing companies into multiple pieces and creating heavy competition.
True Progressive is Franklin Roosevelt style: Add Robust Public option for cost-control to create true, honest competition.
Both of the above options achieve cost-control in different ways with costs dropping like a rock but they do the job well. Note: none of the solutions have individual mandates for corporations which is an un-american concept in my opinion.
What we are seeing is a strange centrist style where the costs only go up with insurance board filled with executives or legislators having conflict of interest with insurance companies directly or indirectly stating they are doing public service and citing cost-increases to justify future mandate increases while lowering the income limits for those mandates (dropping out from medical coverage as sad as it is the only cost-control solution available to middle class right now which is being denied with proposed mandate). Middle class will suffer heavily with lack of expendable income and rest of the economy will shrink and suffer too.
I am really hoping if the democrats pass a medical reform bill it should only be a bill with public option present with anti-trust exemption removed for insurance companies since in my opinion it is the only simple and effective solution to this health-care crisis.
How many court cases are going to result from this mandate? I am also wondering when the middle class bleeding to pay for it starts. Some said 4 years some say right away? Does anyone know the deal on the subsidies? I am on fixed income and can not afford it. [or I would already have it]I am outraged some people on here call this, “something” or “incremental” It looks like the same old in a different wrapper! No health care, just wealthfare for the monopolies whose stock is going up right now!