It is often heard in response to Republican abuse of the filibuster that the solution is to make them actually talk until they can’t talk any longer, and then pass the bill with a simple majority. There are a variety of problems with this solution, in addition to potentially preventing the Senate from passing more than two bills all year.
Sometimes, people point to the “Two Speech Rule” to show that any filibuster must come to an eventual end. This rule would let every Senator actually filibustering the action speak only twice. From the Congressional Research Service:
Rule XIX places no limit on the length of individual speeches or on the number of Senators who may speak on a pending question. It does, however, tend to limit the possibility of extended debate by its provision that “no Senator shall speak more than twice upon any one question in debate on the same legislative day without leave of the Senate, which shall be determined without debate.” This provision, commonly called the “two-speech rule,” limits each Senator to making two speeches per day, however long each speech may be, on each debatable question that the Senate considers. A Senator who has made two speeches on a single question becomes ineligible to be recognized for another speech on the same question on the same day.
The “day” during which a Senator can make no more than two speeches on the same question is not a calendar day, but a legislative day. A legislative day ends only with an adjournment, so that, whenever the Senate recesses overnight, rather than adjourning, the same legislative day continues into the next calendar day. A legislative day may therefore extend over several calendar days. The leadership may continue to recess the Senate, rather than adjourning, as a means of attempting to overcome a filibuster by compelling filibustering Senators to exhaust their opportunities of gaining recognition.
Sounds great, right? Keep the Senate open all day and night! If you have, say, 45 Senators filibustering a bill, and each can only speak twice for, say, 8 hours at a time, then, after 720 hours (30 days) of continuous debate, the minority would be out of chances to speak. Well, it is not that easy. A senator gets two speeches on each debatable question, so a way to get more opportunities to speak is to offer debatable amendments or motions:
Senators rarely invoke the two-speech rule because they generally do not believe that there is any need to do so. Sometimes, however, they may insist that the two speech rule be enforced, as a means of attempting to overcome a filibuster. On such occasions, nevertheless, Senators often can circumvent the two-speech rule by making a motion or offering an amendment that constitutes a new and different debatable question. For example, each Senator can make two speeches on each bill, each first-degree amendment to a bill, and each second-degree amendment to each of those amendments as well.
In recent practice, the Senate considers that being recognized and engaging in debate constitutes a speech. The Senate, however, does not consider “that recognition for any purpose [constitutes] a speech.” Currently effective precedents have held that “certain procedural motions and requests were examples of actions that did not constitute speeches for purposes of the two speech rule.” These matters include such things as making a parliamentary inquiry and suggesting the absence of a quorum. Nevertheless, if a Senator is recognized for a substantive comment, however brief, on the pending question, that remark may count as a speech.
So, the filibustering minority can get more chances to speak by introducing more debatable amendments and motions.
Add to this the issue of the quorum. The Senate needs a quorum, a majority of all senators, to conduct business, so the majority wanting to pass the measure by overcoming a filibuster would need to effectively be in the Senate at all times or send the Sergeant at Arms to gather up the senators. So, filibustering senators can farther delay action by “suggesting the absence of a quorum,” forcing a roll call and forcing a reading of amendments in full:
There are ways other than debate by which Senators can delay and sometimes even prevent the Senate from voting on a question that it is considering. For example, each amendment that is offered on the Senate floor must be read in full before debate on it can begin, although the Senate usually agrees by unanimous consent to waive the reading. In addition, quorum calls can be demanded not for the purpose of confirming or securing the presence of a quorum, but in order to consume time.
A Senator who has been recognized can “suggest the absence of a quorum,” asking in effect whether the Senate is complying with the constitutional requirement that a quorum—a majority of all Senators—be present for the Senate to conduct business. The presiding officer normally does not have the authority to count to determine whether a quorum actually is present (which is rarely the case), and so directs the clerk to call the roll.
In theory, is it possible for a determined majority to overcome a filibuster waged by an equally determined minority without using cloture? It technically might be if the majority were prepared to effectively live in the Senate for 90 days straight to pass a single bill. It would require enduring speeches, multiple amendments, bill readings, quorum calls, etc., waiting until the minority essentially used up every option they had to delay the vote. In short, it would be almost impossible. The best hope would probably be that, after some long period of time, the minority might slip up some how and accidentally allow the final vote. Of course, filibustering is infinitely easier on the minority party, they only need to have a few members present to consume time. The majority, on the other hand, needs to ensure–all day and night–that there is a quorum. Making your opposition filibuster might be a way to try to shame a minority, but it is not a path to passing bills or fixing the issue of our broken Senate.



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#powwowbait
No, but it’s worth doing once. Just once, to make the public actually see the delay. It may not be a fix, indeed it isn’t a fix. But it should still be done once.
Whats the problem with making the Senate work overtime, nights, days and weekends? Its what I’ve done to get the job done.
Or twice
Or we could cut say no pork, war funding votes, aid to Israel until we get National Healthcare and the same drug price Canada and Mexico do.
Our position should be “Eliminate The Senate” with a compromise that we’ll let it stand if they eliminate the filly, buster.
The filibuster is not the problem its that Harry Refuses to use it or any other tool a real Senate Leader would to get things done.
What would Mayor Daley do to get something he wanted passed that is the kind of Senate leader we need minus the corruption of course.
I don’t buy this arguement. I don’t believe any Senator or either party would open themselves to the public ridicule that would ensue if they talked for 30 days or some such length of time. Would a talking filibuster last 3 or 4 days or more. Maybe, but the criticism from the public, the media, the blogosphere and the other party would be ferocious.
it effectively was done once. They did an all-nighter to demand an up or down vote on a timeline for Iraq. Nobody cared. People are putting way too much faith into a “let the public see” concept. Nobody’s actually watching but us. People are busy.
The Democrats effectively filibustered Dorgan’s drug re-importation amendment to the health care bill for 6 days while they and PhRMA whipped the votes to kill it.
Does anyone remember? Does more than 0.1% of the American people even know?
I like your idea, but may I suggest a counter-proposal:
Down with the antidemocratic House of Lords! No compromise.
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Jon Walker and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Once again we see the fascist minority use tactics which when extended to their logical conclusion reflect the willingness of those using them to at the least gridlock the process and more likely to institute minority rule which has been done today by the insideous use of the media and the Democratic Party leadership to get people to assume that 60 votes in the Senate have always been needed to pass legislation.
Kill the fillibuster…it’s the only way to make those passing bad bills or confirming bad appointments responsible for the consequences. Kill the fillibuster and give meaning to elections. Kill the fillibuster and make sure there is nowhere to hide for the bastards…give the political opposition ammunition to take to the voters.
When there is a simple majority needed to pass legislation there is more incentive to “get it right” and nowhere for politicians to hide from messes they create. Why do you think we have endless war…because no one was forced to declar it and therefore no one is responsible for it.
Democracy is dangerous and can be revolutionary and when people are convinced they can make a difference at the polls democracy actually works. The cure for a sick democracy is more democracy!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN AMMUNITION, IT’S ALL ABOUT THE WARS STUPID!!!
this is one of the most educational posts I have read on the wheels of our governance
thanx for all of this!
Sounds just like “Fizzbin” to me…
The rules for fizzbin were intended to be complex, so that Kirk could lull his audience into lowering their defenses long enough to be overwhelmed.
The game can be played with a standard Earth deck of cards, despite the slightly differing deck on Beta Antares IV.
Each player gets six cards, except for the player on the dealer’s right, who gets seven.
The second card is turned up, except on Tuesdays.
Two jacks are a “half-fizzbin”.
If you have a half-fizzbin:
a third jack is a “shralk” and results in disqualification;
one wants a king and a deuce, except at night, when one wants a queen and a four;
if a king had been dealt, the player would get another card, except when it is dark, in which case he’d have to give it back.
The top hand is a “royal fizzbin”, but the odds against getting one are said to be “astronomical”.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Fizzbin
I think focusing on the rules is good, but a lot of things are there because of tradition.
The Senate runs on unanimous consent, which might have worked in a gentlemanly era, but not with scorched earth Republicans.
In theory, the presiding officer could rule a ton of shit out or order – but that’s just not done. We might as well go nuclear.
Of course, women and blacks serving in public life was just not done. Tradition for tradition’s sake is BS.
As much as I would love to see Democrats stauchly blocking rotten GOP laws and nominees when they inevitably come back into power, I’m willing to trade it for a democratic Senate (as much as such an undemocratically representative body can be, that is).
I have no hope that Democrats would ever stand united to block GOP rottenness anyway (remember the Dem contribution to the “Gang of 14″ who colluded with the GOP in 2005).
So let the R’s enact their laws and pay for them at the polls.
Keeping the filibuster is a lose-lose proposition for progress. But I have no reason to expect that Democrats I’ve seen caving in for years will actually do anything for progress that’s difficult in any way — or curtails their own power to block.
People are putting way too much faith into a “let the public see” concept. Nobody’s actually watching but us. People are busy.
From my perspective, this is one of the largest obstacles we face – as regards all major issues. I would add that if people are not “busy,” then they’re paying way too much attention to MSM, which filters essentially everything relevant out of our (pretend) public discourse. I dunno how to crack that problem, but we need to think seriously about it…
the d’s are paying for the r’s obstruction, this is a fact whence voters are fed up with both parties
On a far, far smaller scale than the US Senate, I’ve seen people use rules about adding an amendment in order to draw out debate and introduce bogus arguments. So your point is well taken, and given the backlog of issues in the Senate right now, this spells trouble.
The technical barriers you point to are great points.
Nevertheless, if the Dems have to show up and keep 50 seats warm in order for the entire nation actually **see** that the GOP senators would rather read the phone book than address problems, I have no problem with that.
The key element is to expose GOP obstructionism so that there is no doubt about who is holding up the machinery of government.
Shelby’s mendacious holds were a start; people get the mean-spirited, payback nastiness of it. Now, let’s get the full GOP ‘monty’ as it were by revealing them in all their corporatist talking point foolery.
Citizen perris:
Yes, the point is to let those in the majority be held responsible for their actions, the Republicans when they’re in power and the Democrats when they are. Kill the fillibuster. Maybe keep it for federal judges and SCOTUS…maybe.
Maybe keep it for federal judges and SCOTUS…maybe.
I say we deep-six the whole enchilada, because it’s a safe bet that if it’s available in any form, it will inevitably be used against progressives at some point in the future. Convenient now, maybe, but that blade cuts both ways…
“The cure for a sick democracy is more democracy.”
That is the bottom line.
And precisely what the people of this nation must come to understand, and rather quickly.
The Senate is not democratic, nor was it intended to be.
The Senate was to be appointed by the elites, for the elites … voting for Senators only came along … later.
It is past time for change.
Let the change begin with the well-deserved death of the filibuster.
Democracy and the needs of the people (and the times) requires no less.
DW
As others have said.
The Filibuster is fine, it’s the leadership that is failing.
Let Republicans filibuster. In fact, MAKE them do it.
If Republicans are forced to speak out, at length, they will say ungodly stupid things.
YouTube is democracy’s friend.
My Lord, watching Reid is like watching a big kid on the play ground shell out his lunch money to some little kid, just because the little kid SAYS he’s a bully.
So Jon, how is it that the filibuster which you make sound like a walk in the park for the minority was virtually never used by the Democrats during the 8 years Bush was in office, you know the guy who was the worst President in our history, although Obama is trying to displace him for that distinction?
Were the Democrats incompetent and lying then or now or both times?
Not this one.
I’ve addressed these questions before, recently, and sometimes repeatedly, to no effect – even using the same sources and excerpts Jon does here, perhaps even in one of his threads – so why should I repeat myself again. I’m not pushing talking points. I’m trying to get to the truth.
Meanwhile, all day an indepth discussion of the Senate precedents on the “two-speech” rule, how it would really work in practice, and how it could be enforced, has been underway in the “working thread” Seminal diary that I posted for selise this morning here, whose title is visible on the front page, right next door to this post, for anyone who wants to contribute to the debate.
They say ungodly stupid things every day in the Senate. We watch them. Nobody else does.
Change the fucking rules already the friggin Senate is already so undemocratic its not funny but this is just a joke. The whole thing seems to be set up to thwart the will of the people only when Dems. have the power not the other way around. I fault the Dems. spineless and corrupt.
Robert Byrd said 30 hours wasn’t enough debate on Iraq war
So, according to that view, most of the senate thought 30 hours was plenty of time to debate going to war in Iraq. Surely then it would be enough time to debate most other topics the Senate would consider. But, to be cautious we should allow them 5 days of 8 hours for debate on an important topic.
40 hours to be divided equally between the two major caucuses to be used as the leaders of those groups sees fit and with discussion to alternate between the two groups beginning with the group arguing for a change of course (usually a proponent of some action).
All the rest is shouting.
I love it when you guys say shit like this like you have any leverage to make it happen. Come on.
Kill the filibuster is right! Drive a Stake through its heart.
powwow, that working thread is really interesting, but it really doesn’t address the question of whether it’s better to force physical filibusters to occur again, assuming that can be done, or whether it’s better to use the nuclear option and end it. I know that selise and yourself have decided that questions for yourself. But I’ve never seen either one of you do a really detailed analysis of relative likely consequences of either of these alternatives. I think this is a shame, because this question should be prior than the wonkish mechanics of how to force physical filibusters we perhaps ought not even want.
Over at HuffPo they have a filibuster going already in the Senate. Sen. Mitch McChinless is going on and on and on….But note the really sad face at 15:17
Wahhhhh, I put this guy Kyle in charge of my office. And Kyle is going to K-Street and I already miss him so bad. I have got TO CRY. Wahhhhhhhhh. Everything I have accomplished accomplished I owe to Kyle. Wahhh Wahhh. Kyle seemed to know absolutely everything. He managed the office with such vision…Wahhhhhh. Oh the horror. Can I ever smile again…I cannot tell you how many other Senators told me they will miss him…When I think of what Kyle has meant to me for the last fifteen years I just got to CRYYYYYYY!!!
I agree with most comments that making them actually go through the real filibuster would be downright embarrassing. Under current practice the threat of filibustering is enough to stop anything but most Americans don’t get to see who is creating this stoppage. Bring on a real filibuster !
Also consider changes in the filibuster rules so as to make 60 vote thresholds applicable only to votes/decisions that may not be reversed such as voting for Supreme Court nominees. Any decisions that can be reversed by the next Congress should be put to a modified filibuster along the lines being proposed by Senator Harkin. Exemption could be made for nonreversible votes like the life time appointments of supreme court judges which could remain at the 60 vote threshold. In a sense it would be more in keeping with using reconciliation to pass bills which later may be reversed.
wow dday, if i had any doubt before about where you are coming from, that comment went a long way to answering them.
i’ll just second powwow’s comment and invite you to join us if you have anything of substance to contribute.
the last few years there hasn’t been much to watch on the floor (house or senate). it’s almost all been debated, negotiated and scripted to obscure before getting to the floor and therefore to the public. i can remember exactly 3 times when something unscripted happened while i was watching.
the level of lying, scripted political theater designed to keep the public out of the process was in and of itself a revelation to me. but that’s the main thing i’ve learned and the rest has been mostly a waste of my time. so i can’t exactly complain if more people don’t watch unless there is actually something TO watch.
figuring out what options actually exist, then what are the pros and cons of each actually are — vs the talking points we have been fed or the illusions democrats may hold — is imo absolutely critical to the questions of what to do and advocate for next.
especially given the stakes that are involved, skipping those steps is imo irresponsible.
I thought I read somewhere that filibuster was only intended to be used for very serious debates: war, impeachment, and a couple others. If the Senate rules could be amended to emphatically state this, we would have a working Senate without getting rid of the filibuster.
Another option: Is there a precedent for shutting down the Senate entirely until they are willing to work together? Even if there isn’t, perhaps now is the time to set this precedent.
Lost on the question as to whether the filibuster should stand as is or not is the why it was ever tolerated to come about. The monumental hubris of the Senate of allowing one Senator this prerogative or the right to hold appointees or to do anything other than take up issues of the public’s concern and legislate is staggering.
The Senate should be abolished. The idea of allowing any body to set its own rules and lay on itself absurd priviledges results in the mired mess we now have. If you want to see what the end result of these absurd rules lead to well now it’s there for all to see.
This pretentious body of windbags serves no purpose other than to receive graft and stifle the ability of the House to do the public’s business. One way to nullify the filibuster is for the public not to elect Senators. No one is oblidged to vote for them so simply don’t. Give the House free reign to legislate.
Moreover, we should reflect a bit before we go spouting off to other countries in the world about the merits of our unique and genius form of government. We should pause as we engage in self adulation regarding the flawless genius of the Founding Fathers in setting up a system never before known to man for all to follow.
We should step back every now and then and really see what an absolute embarassment our form of government actually is. A system riddled with graft and now suffused with inertia. It is little wonder people can’t muster the energy to vote to perpetuate this mess.
Can you really beleive the caliber of people that inhabit the Senate such as inbreds like Shelby, Sessions and McConnell. We should parade these idiots for the world to see as shining examples of our glorious Senate.
Best comment in this thread, IMO. But I wouldn’t include the compromise. Simply, Eliminate the Senate. Where can we get bumper stickers made?
Seriously, is there anyone out there who would defend our present day bicameral legislature as being better than a unicameral alternative? I mean someone that is not a corporatist shill of course.
powwow, a sincere thanks for the link. I’ve been away for awhile and hadn’t seen your post. Looks like a better read, more later.
If it has come to this, isn’t it time for the sovereign people of the United States to exercise their right to self-govern and just “throw away” the old system, like the chronic consumers we are?
At least it’s already broken. We need a new system.
How about holding up a juicy pay raise or some irresistable perk the Senators can’t muster the virtue to filibuster?