After I appeared on MSNBC talking about Sarah Palin’s appearance at the Nashville tea party convention, several libertarian friends pinged me to say they were unhappy with the exchange.
I said that Sarah Palin’s hawkish message on Iran was oddly out of place in a group whose roots belong to the Ron Paul anti-interventionist libertarians, particularly as the anti-interventionist Rand Paul is looking strong in the Kentucky Senate race – and Palin just endorsed him.
The woman I appeared with, who said she was representing the tea partiers, was quick to say that there were many who were NOT anti-interventionist, such as herself. My libertarian friends couldn’t figure out WTF she was doing on MSNBC representing the tea parties in the first place, and said it was embarrassing when the opposition did a better job stating their case than their purported advocate.
But it underscores a rift within the tea parties between the anti-tax, pro-civil rights libertarians who started them and the corporatist neocons who are now trying to swoop in and capitalize on all of the hype. I’ve now spoken with no small number of journalists reporting on the tea party phenomenon who don’t even seem to know that the first tea party in 2007 was held by Ron Paul supporters, and they actually dumped tea into Boston Harbor.
Ron Paul appeared on Rachel Maddow last night to speak about the fact that he himself is being challenged for his House seat by those who claim to represent the tea party movement. Rachel asked him about his relationship to the tea parties, and he said:
I think the message gets a little bit diluted when a lot of people come in and the Republican party wants to make sure that maybe there’s a Neocon type of influence.
Alan Grayson worked closely with Ron Paul to pass Audit the Fed in the House, and we worked with the Campaign for Liberty to support them in that effort. Ron Paul was reluctant to denounce Sarah Palin’s endorsement of his son, and mostly tried to change the subject.
But this morning Doug Bandow, a Senior Fellow at the Campaign for Liberty, has a piece denouncing the Daniel Pipes foolishness (echoed by Sarah Palin last weekend) which says Obama would help himself politically by bombing the bejesus out of Iran:
There are no good solutions in Iran. The world will be a better place if Iran becomes democratic and abandons any nuclear weapons program. But initiating war likely would inhibit reform in Iraq while making the world a more dangerous place. The disastrous experience of Iraq should teach us many lessons, the most important of which is that war always should be a last resort. That standard is no where close to being met in Iran.
Masaccio stopped by the Nashville tea party and said there was a promo booth set up by ConAgra. ConAgra. Agricultural subsidies are one of the biggest forms of corporate welfare around, and there’s a HUGE corporate push on to convince the tea party activists that they’re not. They are. Red State has endorsed Stephen Fincher for John Tanner’s seat, despite the fact that he’s taken over $300,000 in campaign contributions from families who have received over $80 million in farm subsidies. The mid-south arm of the organization did an impressive investigation into it and called him out for it (below the jump). In it, they cite the work of the progressive environmental organization EWG.
I have a lot of respect for the libertarians like Bruce Fein and Ron Paul who took a lot of shit during the Bush years for opposing FISA, domestic spying, warrentless wiretapping, the wars and the bank bailout. It was a principled thing to do and it wasn’t easy.
Ron Paul was denied the ability to speak at the Republican convention in St. Paul, and held his own convention across town. Glenn Greenwald and I were there. While we disagree with the libertarians about more things than we probably agree on, it’s an honest disagreement about the role of government. The GOP establishment, on the other hand, struck a bargain for power with corporate America that is totally at odds with everything the libertarians stand for. I’ve often thought they have more points of honest intersection with progressives on the war, civil liberties, accountability and transparency than with the GOP and the “For Sale” sign they’ve affixed to the taxpayer trough.
Ron Paul has been tireless in taking his message to college campuses, and he has tremendous support among younger people who identify themselves as fiscal conservatives but are uncomfortable with the fundies and their gay-bashing. But as the libertarian message is gaining traction, it is being hijacked by the Neocons — and Sarah “bridge to nowhere” Palin leads the parade.
It’s completely incoherent that there are now tea party-identified candidates are trying to oust Ron Paul himself from his seat. I hope the libertarians lay down markers and come down on the side of ending ConAgra’s corporate welfare, and showing Palin and her many bombs to the door.
Press release by Mid South TEA Party on Stephen Fincher:
The Mid South TEA Party For immediate release: 12/14/09
Contact: jtomasik@midsouthteaparty.org
Phone: 901-827-0120
Is a Congressional Campaign Being Funded With Your Tax Dollars?
Earlier this year Stephen Fincher, a Republican candidate vying for John Tanner’s seat in the
eighth Congressional District, caused quite a stir by raising over $300,000 in campaign
contributions in just a few weeks. Mr. Fincher’s apparent ability to raise funds of this magnitude
has caught the eye of GOP leaders across the district and of the RNCC. He has also been
endorsed by the popular national blog site known as RedState.
With the money in the bank and an “R” behind his name, Fincher seems to have become the
front-runner on the Republican side of this race. More importantly, he is being viewed by some
as the top choice for conservatives in the district. He confirms this notion on his website by
making a vague claim to be the candidate that will “stop the runaway spending in Washington
that is bankrupting America…”
However, a closer look at the source of his campaign funding reveals that Mr. Fincher, along
with his supporters, might be part of the problem rather than a possible solution. Over 90 percent
of Fincher’s campaign funding came from farming families that have been recipients to almost
$80,000,000 in federal farm subsidies. These subsidies are a complicated web of taxpayer-
funded entitlements that tend to benefit large farming operations, and processing facilities. The
Fincher family has been the recipient of nearly $6,000,000 of these funds.
The Fincher Family raked in more than $800,000 worth of this corporate welfare during 2007
alone.
In a press release sent out in April 2008, Ken Cook, president of Environmental Working Group
(EWG), described the problem with the farm subsidy programs:
“Though net farm income reached a record level of $88.7 billion in 2007, propelled by
high market prices for major crops, Washington still sent out over $5 billion of taxpayers’
money in ‘direct payment’ farm subsidies to over 1.4 million recipients… Over 60 percent
of the subsidy was pocketed by just 10 percent of the recipients-the largest and generally
wealthiest subsidized farming operations in the country.”
In West Tennessee, the concentration of subsidy wealth is even more alarming. The EWG
reports a stunning 85 percent of all subsidies distributed to the eighth Congressional District
were collected by just 10 percent of subsidy recipients. Moreover, while just 18 percent of
farmers and/or ranchers statewide collect millions in these entitlements each year, 59 percent of
those farmers reside in West Tennessee. This concentration may in part be due to the vast
amount of farmland in West Tennessee. However, based on Fincher’s campaign contribution list,
with many supporting families making maximum donations of $9,600, it appears that these
particular farmers and their families are hardly suffering.
According to the EWG, farm income exceeded $84,000 per household on average in 2007,
compared to an average income for all U.S. households of $50,233. Yet, in 2008, the current
Representative, John Tanner (D), voted not once, but twice, in favor of a farm bill that would
raise the limit on farm subsidies to 150 percent of the previous limit. This would send even
more taxpayer money to those already significantly more financially well off than the average
American. Considering the fact that 90 percent of Mr. Fincher’s donors, including his own
family, are benefiting from this type legislation, it would be reasonable to assume that Mr.
Fincher would find himself beholding to such subsidy recipients who have donated to his
campaign. Following the money makes suspect Mr. Fincher’s claim that he would be able to
represent the 8th District in a fiscally conservative manner once elected.
Here is the breakdown of the amount donated and the amount of subsidies received:
Farm Families Amount Contributed Amount of Federal Subsidies
| Anderson | $10,600.00 | $1,488,122.00 |
| Arnold | $14,400.00 | $485,262.00 |
| Barnett | $6,800.00 | $1,068,799.00 |
| Bates | $9,600.00 | $873,556.00 |
| Beaird | $5,000.00 | $5,023,188.00 |
| Castleman | $2,500.00 | $887,632.00 |
| Couch | $11,350.00 | $6,079,981.00 |
| Crews | $9,600.00 | $380,146.00 |
| Driver | $9,600.00 | $80,567.00 |
| Eason | $4,000.00 | $138,143.00 |
| East | $2,000.00 | $2,262,204.00 |
| Edwards | $9,600.00 | $1,044,287.00 |
| Espey | $14,400.00 | $1,318,197.00 |
| Fincher | $21,600.00 | $5,845,110.00 |
| Greene | $4,800.00 | $1,251,036.00 |
| Hargett | $9,600.00 | $3,346,541.00 |
| Hollingshead | $1,000.00 | $419,787.00 |
| Hughes | $26,000.00 | $6,089,687.00 |
| Hurt | $14,400.00 | $151,751.00 |
| Hutchison | $4,800.00 | $830,747.00 |
| Johnson | $1,250.00 | $288,464.00 |
| Jordan | $24,600.00 | $7,870,212.00 |
| Kelley | $5,000.00 | $14,062,146.00 |
| Luckey | $3,000.00 | $3,987,860.00 |
| Murphy | $2,500.00 | $666,104.00 |
| Nunn | $13,600.00 | $639,793.00 |
| Pearson | $8,000.00 | $3,216,379.00 |
| Riley | $9,600.00 | $1,515,037.00 |
| Simmons | $13,200.00 | $370,030.00 |
| Taylor | $2,000.00 | $3,930,878.00 |
| Turnage | $1,500.00 | $926,338.00 |
| Totals: | $275,900.00 | $76,537,984.00 |




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The bridge to peace with the libertarians is pot legalization. If progressive politicians would get aboard this, our alliance couldn’t be stopped.
Jane Hamsher “I have a lot of respect for the libertarians like Bruce Fein and Ron Paul who took a lot of shit during the Bush years for opposing FISA, domestic spying, warrentless wiretapping, the wars and the bank bailout. It was a principled thing to do and it wasn’t easy. Ron Paul was denied the ability to speak at the Republican convention in St. Paul, and held his own convention across town. Glenn Greenwald and I were there.”
I have respect for both these fellas too. Fein came out swinging during the Bush administrations criminal rampage.
This Race for Iran is ramping up. This morning on the Diane Rehm show she had three guest on about the issue of Iran. Not one of them presented an opposing view. It was all about BAD BAD IRAN. I sent in several questions and comments in that did not make it on (and I have had close to 400 comments and questions read on that show over the last 10 years) Several of them about Firedoglake anyway.
Three of the questions on Iran
!.”Would Iran be more willing to negotiate with the U.S. and international community if the U.S. were to demand that Israel sign the non proliferation treaty and open up to inspections the way Iran did years ago? The last President to demand this was President Kennedy”
2.In this April 20, 2006 article by Kenneth Timmerman he states
“At the State Department, where Condoleeza Rice has admirably pledged to spend $85 million this year to support the pro-freedom movement in Iran, careerists have taken over the show and are steering her in the wrong direction.
Of that $85 million, nearly $50 million has been tentatively ear-marked to expand the Voice of America and the Persian service of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.”
I have read that the U.S. has spent millions undermining the government of Iran. Can your guest please discuss how these U.S. millions have been spent in Iran?”
3. The most important question/comment
“Diane you just allowed Albright to say “stop Iran’s nuclear weapons program” There is no solid evidence that Iran has a “nuclear weapons program” But this unsubstantiated claim about an alleged nuclear weapons program has been repeated on Mainstream outlets over and over again the last six years and goes completely unchallenged.
Did the MSM learn anything about the unsubstantiated language used in the run up to the illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq. Please please at the very least demand that the important word “alleged” is put in front of that unproven and repeated statement having to do with Irans alleged nuclear weapons program.”
———————————————————————
Irans nuclear weapons program has gone unchallenged over and over again the last six years on the majority of MSM outlets. Including Rachel Maddow, Terri Gross who I have heard repeat this unsubstantiated claim many times. But Chris Matthews, Keith, Diane, Scott Simon etc have allowed this claim to be repeated over and over again without challenging or demanding that “alleged” be put in front. The stage has been set for a pre-emptive strike whether there is hard evidence or not.
It’s as if hundreds of thousands in Iraq have not been killed, injured and millions are not refugees in Iraq all based on false pre war intelligence.
I know history repeats itself by Christ all mighty this is insane.
Listen to the Rehm show on Iran when you are able. Listen to the unsubstantiated claims being repeated. Notice that Diane asked very few challenging questions.
Iran
http://wamu.org/programs/dr/
Unfortunately there are no progressive politicians who will do that. They’re too afraid of being demagogued as “pot smoking hippies.”
But I agree, a powerful alliance if it could be pulled off.
Bingo.
And yanking that renewal of the Patriot Act out of the” jobs bill” would be a good step too.
Colbert points out more Sarah Palin hypocrisies
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/colbert-sarah-palin-f-king-retard
Jane you were clear, concise. Sarah “stepped in it this weekend”
Could not believe that Ratigan indicated that Sarah’s history of “generating more anger” was similar to Obama’s. What the hell was that about?
Did not know that the Republicans had treated Ron Paul so poorly. He and his followers are a force to be reckoned with not shut out
There’s a lot in your article.
On one point, regionally, tea parties vary in their mix of libertarian to social conservatives. The wars and foreign policy were NOT an original plank of the tea parties, but the lawyer who hired Sarah Palin to speak in Tennessee so he could launch a PAC put it on his list of tea party platforms. This is an obvious divisive issue as SOME of the social conservatives will be fine with it and not question it. The libertarians feel like someone put ice water down their backs. (I think I can say that pretty universally.) However, right now, Palin agrees Rand is the best candidate in Kentucky and that is a good point. (Also possibly intended to keep us from outright war, I don’t dismiss the thought.) In other places, we prefer Rubio to Crist, not having a better horse of our own in the race. If the choice is between someone entirely bad and someone half bad and half actually good, tea party groups seem to gravitate to the best that has a chance.
But look at the Texas Governor race. Palin came out for Perry, which was an eye opener. He is HATED by many of the tea party groups in Texas. Yet some neocons are opposing Ron Paul saying HE DOESN’T VOTE FOR ENOUGH PORK and are calling themselves tea partiers. Someone is trying to dilute it to a Republican party-leadership brand when it is the opposite.
Meanwhile, although Palin endorsed Perry, look at the PPP pole yesterday on the governor’s race in Texas. Perry was ahead at 39 + percent, Hutchison at about 28 % and MEDINA at 24% in a poll with an error margin of 4.8%. Medina had been about 6% at the first debate, jumped to 12% right after and earned a place in the second debate, after that polled (Rasmussen) at 16%, and now, a week later, is at 24%, and may well bump Hutchison to be in the run off against Perry (if he doesn’t make 50% of vote in the primary.) This is particularly so since it is an open primary in Texas.
Medina was in Ron Paul’s campaign, became chair of her local GOP chapter at one point in a RP supporter driven insurgency, is a nurse who started a medical billing company.
So in the couple weeks since Palin endorsed Perry, Medina, described as the ‘tea party candidate’ went from 12% to 24%. When her supporters are asked for a ‘second choice’ they split between Hutchison Perry and third parties. Medina says if she loses she would not vote for either Hutchison or Perry.
So dynamics are still interesting.
Take care.
The AIPAC/PNAC/neocon types are ramping up their Iran war mongering. Hope Obama ignores them. When have they ever been right?
While we disagree with the libertarians about more things than we probably agree on, it’s an honest disagreement about the role of government.
Civil discussion. What a concept.
As for the seemingly contradictory position of Palin vis-a-vis Iran? Maybe an error in transcribing onto her hand? Just a SWAG.
If we can just get the younger generation to vote more regularly, a lot of this would go away. They don’t have the same attitude toward legalization of pot, hippies in general, war or socialism that the older generation does. But the old people vote and the younger ones often don’t bother. It will be interesting to see how things go in California in November. Between the college kids getting upset over tuition and other increases and the pot initiative on the ballot, we could have a lot more young voters turning out and be able to see what effect that has on the ballot.
Please, God, let part of the effect be a repudiation of Meg Whitman!
Palin IS an ignoramus, and, just like Bush, proud of it.
But she’s also our ace in the hole. She’s the one person in the republican party who can scare the bejeezus out of a lot of independents and even some “moderate” republicans, not to mention our “centrist” democrats.
There is a YouTube clip of her saying, when she ran for governor of Alaska, that she would support a state constitutional amendment that would force women pregnant from rape or incest to carry to term. This person is never going to be the president of the United States. Period.
All she can do is bedevil the republican party far more effectively than any democrat, including, evidently, the current occupant of the white house.
With Obama steadily moving to the right:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/02/wall-street-bonuses-president-obama-once-called-obscene-and-shameful-now-he-doesnt-begrudge.html ….
Palin and her naked-as-a-jaybird compulsive asshattery are about all we have left to hold enough people in the center to hang onto some vestige of the clout that Obama came in with 13 months ago.
Run, Sarah, run.
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Sigh… here we go again Citizen Hamsher, tryin’ ta convince ourselves that the Ron Paulites are REALLY well intentioned American constitutionalists who have nuthin’ in common with or connection to the corporate fascism that has metastesized in what is left of the Republican Party and threatens the identity of the Democrats. PuhLEEZE Sister Jane, Ron Paul and his original band of brothers (very few sisters there) are linear disendants of the originalist, strict constructionist American fascists of the ante bellum American South. You can trace their lineage from the John Birchers and the Dixiecrats to the America Firsters to the original KKK to the No Nothings and right to the firebreathing nullifiers of the 1850′s. This guy and his followers are not pure, honest hard workin’ American conservatives, they represent the purest form of fascist populism that the world has ever seen and the good ol’ boys from the original Ron Paul Tea Party will NEVER, EVER coalesce with progressive Democrats in any national election effort unless they coopt the coalition and pack it’s leadership.
Anyone who plays coy footsie with these folks in order to split the coprorate oligarchy plays a dangerous game…please look at the history of the last years of Weimar Germany and the ascendence of fascism on steroids when the oligarchy in Germany figured they’d throw in with this paper-hanger because they were sure they could control ‘im. No Sister Hamsher, Ron Paul and everything he represents must be stomped out from our political future.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND FIGURE OUT WHO THE ENEMY IS BEFORE YA PUT DOWN YER WEAPONS!!
Sarah’s fundies want to swamp Ron’s guys with numbers never mind Ron’s college appeal works because he is not a fundy. Will Ron’s people take back their group before Sarah’s people kill their Cred? Just how organized and committed are Ron’s people?
Sarah has NeoCon’s and Fundies supporting her attempts to bring the Baggers into the GOP.
As I see it, the tea partiers were always susceptible to being used by TPTB. Do you think the Big Boys are going to allow the rabble to be successful?
If the rabble is bashing Obama, it’s useful to TPTB.
If the rabble is not on board with bombing Iran, time to jam the message.
We have three political parties, The Progressive’s, the Libertarian’s, and the pro-business Demo-Publican party. The only way to defeat the Demo-Pub Party is through the collaboration/joining of Progressive’s and Libertarian’s. Unfortunately, there are too many shills for the Democrat half of the Demo-Pub Party working at “Liberal” media like the “Nation Magazine” and MSNBC. Nothing will change until these delusional media shops see the light.
The baggers that are promoted by the corporate media are nothing more than the shock troops of a nascent home grown fascist movement.
Actually, currently, Palin has another function.
Unfortunately, some progressive bloggers are treating her as a pinata, to avoid dealing with the fact that Barack Obama is still using progressive democrats and their ideas, for his shitting post.
The more that Obama caves to the GOP, the louder they shreik about Palin and Limbaugh and the 30% mouth-breathers, who just now, are practically irrelevant. (500 teabaggers? Come on… :o) )
The repubs are NOT our problem, and they can only become our problem if Obama continues to do rehab on them by helping them create an anti-incumbent tsunami 9 months from now.
From what I understand, Ron Paul is correct to say that the Tea Party message has been diluted and has even been twisted some as a result of Neocon type of influence. It’s not at all surprising that the Republican establishment and other opportunists would jump in to take it away from people like Ron Paul and Libertarians. The right has its own version of the veal pen.
Citizen azel:
If you think for one second that Ron Paul and what passes for “libertarians” you reference would ever find common ground with progressives you are smokin’ some seriously dangerous shit. I refer you to the relationship between the Southern populists and the emmergin’ northern progressives in the last decades of the 19th century and all the way to the mid 1930′s and Huey Long.
Thanks Jane, regarding the part about the fear of being labeled a hippie. I have often wondered about this.
I am as anti drug as they come, and even I favor decriminalization of pot.
Taxing pot puts all that cash in the public domain, away from the street gangs.
Grayson and most progressives in Congress are very close to Sarah Palin on Iran.
The GOP is in civil war if Sarah swamps Ron then yes we have a new American Nazi Party complete with corporate money, Fundy Racist numbers, etc.
Ron plays well at colleges but the more light shinned on him the more his racism shows. Also the less appealing Ron looks at colleges.
Ron is of course now the GOP”s last hope to bring in young voters who see Sarah as their Mom’s Republican Party.
However this plays out it will be interesting. How should we play this hand I don’t know. But whats at stake here for us is to much for us to sit on the sidelines. Agreed playing with Ron is dangerous.
Bluetoe2; they are that, but we aren’t going to see any overt 1935 Nurenburgs here. That’s too heavy-handed. I’m not worried about the nouveau brown shirts. In fact their biggest threat is that they’re covering Obama’s ass for his support of the kind of corpo-fascists who have already made such progress in structuring the country along lines that favor their interests.
Again, this link speaks volumes about what kind of trouble we’re in, and right now it has very little to do with the drool coming off Palin, Limbaugh, and Beck’s, chins;
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/02/wall-street-bonuses-president-obama-once-called-obscene-and-shameful-now-he-doesnt-begrudge.html
I’m confused. I thought Dick Armey was the father of the Tea Party ™ movement and FoxNews was the midwife.
I always thought of Ron Paul as a good fit for some aspects of the tea party movement, but never thought he was their leader and promotor, just a beneficiary up to now.
The media want so paint everything as bad for Dems, but there really is an anti-incumbent mood. I think that is one reason why sitting Govs like Crist and Perry are doing badly. Voters are angry at all politicians, Dems just happen to control more offices so there is more anger at them.
The Tea Bag constituency lacks a coherent set of goals. Most of its supporters are simply poorly informed but very angry white people. As such, they are perfect tools for whoever possesses the necessary PR machinery to manipulate them. Unfortunately, that is more likely to be the well financed hard right faction of the Republican party than libertarian ideologues, especially since the latter are handicapped by occasional scruples.
Citizen tanbank:
“I’m not worried about the nouveau Brownshirts…” Are you kiddin me??!! The nice, friendly “libertarian” right-wing southern-fried populists are the real thing and if you don’t remember the mobs beatin’ on the doors of the vote counters in Miami-Dade County in 2000 then read about the out of work, disenfranchized workers in 1932-33 Germany who provided the muscle for the Nazi take over.
I did not know that Medina was doing that well. Huh.
Does Alan Grayson want to end the Fed? Ron Paul does. Other than the value in being civil toward people with whom we have honest disagreements about the role of government, which is important while calling out the corporatist sellouts and shills who currently call all the shots in DC, I don’t think there’s any value in forming an alliance with Ron Paul or anyone on the right during the 2010 election cycle.
The farm bills are typically among the most pork-laden that come out of congress, regardless of which party is in power. Americans like to view farmers as if they just stepped out of a Norman Rockwell frame. That hasn’t been the case for a century.
I agree with you on Paul. I’m not a Libertarian and disagree with their utopian free market fantasies, but at least their arguments are coherent and have merit.
If the TP movement rids itself of Paul altogether, then what clearer signal could there be that it has become totally corrupt.
And in record time, too.
Yeah, sadly the pronouncement this morning by Obama regarding the bonus money for bankers is the final nail in our general public coffin.
I’m completely astounded that he’d come out and SAY this, ever if he believes it . . . it’s a complete repudiation of all he campaigned on and it’s a complete repudiation of we the people, not to mention an outright reach around to stiffen up the corporate feudalism that bought him and all the other politicians we keep voting for.
Bankrupt fiscally and morally in debt to the corporate feudalists, our country is truly lost in terms of serving the masses. It’s facism, top to bottom as the corporate structure buys and owns the political structure.
Sigh.
It would be just great, if, somehow, in the future, so-called “progressives” and so-called “libertarians” each broke away from the Democrats and Republicans and formed two new parties. The consequent likely changes are obvious.
“Ron Paul and everything he represents must be stomped out from our political future.”
Our political future?
What Dat?
The Naderites are anathema, the libertarians fascists, – care to describe the future, citizen?
That succinctly captures it.
Right now you’re looking at an electorate that is ready to have a 15 point swing in favor of the GOP next November, courtesy of the image-makeover they’ve fashioned for themselves out of the tea parties.
If that makes you happy then keep it up.
I’m not wild about handing Congress over to the GOP though, and haven’t heard any workable plan for peeling the independent/libertarians off which involves calling them assholes and fascists of the Weimar Republic. Might not be the absolute best messaging there, Norske.
Citizen Seymour Friendly:
Yeah, that’s the ticket, split up the opposition within both major political parties and let ‘em run for dogcatcher and mosquito controller with all the millions of dollars they will generate from their constituencies…God God Brother Seymour, get a clue!!
You have to wonder who is writing Sarah Palin’s speeches now.
Wonder if it is David “axis of evil” Frum?
Sarah is getting better at delivering. Her speech is all about fear, dropping the last eight years in Obama lap, and now the Obama administration has to be held accountable, while we look forward not backwards”
http://www.frumforum.com/youtube-blogging-palins-speech
Frum blogged during her speech. Bet he is helping write her speeches
Why should they EVER ‘see the light’? They are owned and operated by the corporate structure that owns and operates our elected politicians. To think the facist owned and operated msm would ever parrot anything other than the corporate line is quite a stretch of hopey/changey. Does MSNBC cover SOME progressive issues, and lean a bit? Sure! Kabuki! To attract viewers who won’t watch the rest of the MSM . . . but like NPR, they sell the same advertising for the same corporate sponsors, day after day . . and to generate that revenue, and KEEP those sponsors, they serve the corporate overlords who OWN the media.
Any notion of a liberal media was debunked in the 80′s as Reagan deregulated the media, and then when Clinton was elected, it was deregulated even more.
Like banking/finance, open doors of deregulation created a corporate oligarchy.
http://firedoglake.com/2007/06/08/ron-paul-vs-the-new-world-order/
Ron has problems
Agreed.
Casual overviewing of headline wording and phrasing during Tuesday 02/09 across AP provided leads or a number of sites that provide sidebar news bullet points or how NYTimes was setting headlines and column content seemed pro attack/war on Iran driven.
We know how the Bush/Cheney WH and it’s allied interests laid out the premise for attacking Iraq during 2002. The media went along with the propaganda throwing well enough. By early 2003 it was plainly evident that Iraq was no longer a matter of if to attack but when. March 2003 did not come as a surprise. We know how the story went on from there.
One would not be reckless to suggest American political media will roll over and for another prelude to attack and warmaking on Iran leading up to 2010 mid-term elections and then into early 2011 attack on Iran.
The 2002 prelude and lead up to early 2003 Iraq attack likely enough viewed by the pro attack Iran faithful as a useful template. That it is the wrong way forward and error infested not mattering.
The last refuge of saner minds having become Barack Obama is not as dumb as G.W.Bush or mendacious as Dick Cheney.
Staying on the sane side may prove to be hope misplaced and far too confident of Barack Obama’s spinal fortitude.
Workable plan? Jobs and keeping people in their homes.
Untill such time as street protests and civil disobedience become a frequent occurrence, absolutely nothing is going to change, – no matter how much the fireless dogs piss in the lake.
Citizen Flamethrower,
Are you forgetting Strange Bedfellows? Left and Right can work on certain issues, to mutual benefit.
Citizen Hamsher:
And you really think that throwin’ in with Ron Paul candidates will keep the GOP from takin over Congress??!! Good lord! There is a serious split in what is a VERY SMALL conservative “movement” that has a lotta VERY large corporate cash…when the dust settles the Ron Paul Tea Partiers and the Sarah Palin Tea Partiers will all vote and will all pull the cord for the GOP. I think that the best way to get folks energized within the new Democratic Party coalition Obama put together is to get healthcare reform, a jobs bill and EFCA and scream to high heaven about the fascism of the Tea Party Republicans.
I guess you COULD reason that the first Tea Party efforts and founders (forget their names, FDL has posts on it) might have been grass roots (the term facism is inaccurate at the grass roots level WRT this movement).
But this ‘TeaBag Party’ was usurped quickly and DID become a plank for corporate oligarchy and facism (facism as defined when corporations and government serve at the behest of each other and not the general masses) and is NOTHING of any real grass roots in its leadership and sponsorships.
The people OF the TeaBag Party are being sheep led, unaware of what is really happening, and not really caring as long as they get to bitch and whine about all the standard Republican Talking Points . . . including eliminating the rights of minorities, women, the LGBT community, and social services.
Worth the listen to Sarah’s whole speech. She is being coached in a big way.
She is talking about “consequences” “accountability” Flipping the script at its worse
“Every bit as bad as the last administration, maybe even worse.”
- Ron Paul
http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-09-20/ron-paul-obama-neutralized-the-anti-war-left/
“At least Bush was honest, I mean he was upfront. He believed in pre-emptive preventive war but everybody was hopeful that Obama would do differently, but he hasn’t. So he has quieted down the left and there is a very weak anti-war movement in this country now. And that obviously is something I hope to participate in reviving and it has to be coming from the old right as well as true progressives who believe that all this warmongering and killing makes no sense whatsoever.”
Agree with him completely.
“The House Financial Services Committee voted, 43-26, to approve a measure sponsored by Texas Republican Ron Paul, vociferously opposed by the Fed, that would direct the congressional Government Accountability Office to expand its audits of the Fed to include decisions about interest rates and lending to individual banks. The Fed says the provision threatens its ability to make monetary policy without political interference.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125864421370955721.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories
Again, I side with Ron Paul.
His bigotry, on the other hand, is appalling. He needs to renounce the racist, bigoted crap spewed through the years in his newsletters, e.g.,
http://www.tnr.com/sites/default/files/PoliticalReportOctober1992.pdf
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is up and ready: Your Liberal Media Headline of the Day
Citizen Casual Observer:
We are talkin’ about gettin people elected and gettin major progressive legislation accomplished…now tell me again how supportin’ the Ron Paulists is gunna do that.
Is she a tool, or is she wielding it?
I hear what both you & Norske are saying. No solutions on my part, sorry, but I have concerns re Ron Paul. I agree w/a lot that he purports to stand for, but he is racist through & through. Still, politics does sometimes make strange bedfellows. So I’m willing to contenance Paul to a point (as it appears RM does).
I agree that I don’t want the GOP to get back in lock, stock & barrel. I figured it was only a matter of time before the corporations took over the “tea party movement,” as RM so ably illustrated over the summer. The recent convention in TN was enlightening in that Palin basically was banging the drum for war with Eye-Ran. I am as guilty as the next leftie of enjoying the odd bashing of Bible Spice, and I still think she’s a dolt. But she’s clearly now the marionette for someone who’s pulling her strings and making her squawk out hawkishly about attacking Iran.
On another blog that highlights rightwing emails, we are suddenly seeing the war with Iran talking points being pushed out. I take it very seriously, indeed, as Rahmbama shows absolutely no sign of wanting to avoid war, rather they wish to pursue it more.
So, sigh: back to Ron Paul. Guess we have to what we have to do.
Jane: I’m with you to a point, but reserve some hesitation over Mr. Paul’s racist roots.
Tanbark my dear friend (he says in his BEST Ambassador Molinari voice) I’m witcha all the way.
We the people, be we progs or libertarians or anything else . . . have a far greater problem.
It’s a class war, with the corporate/government duopoly pitted against the rest of we the people.
And so far, the middle class and we the people are getting our noses crushed and our asses kicked in so bad we can’t even make it to the ER for treatment cuz we can’t GET any other care from the system status quo.
Any dialogue about party differences, idealogical differences regarding social issues, bigger or smaller government, etc. are mere kabuki as the class war continues to beat, loot and destroy the middle class.
Nice seeing your fonts here at The Lake, again, Comrade!!! *G*
Unemployment over 10% and only expected to go up. Without real bank reform expect another bank crisis sooner rather than later.
People will be in the streets and the Tea Baggers seem to want to make sure the Dems, the Lefties the Gays Women, Minorities and not the Rich get blamed.
Will we go Hitler, Stalin or FDR’s path when not if the crisis comes is the question.?
That’s my main concern with Paul and it’s based on seeing it in person in the early days of the 08 campaign.
Norske,
Repeal of FISA, Patriot Act, or provisions therein, things of that nature…these are things that Pauliacs and DFHs agree on.
Good lord Norske, stop putting words in my mouth. No. This isn’t Teen Beat Magazine and when we work with the libertarians (something we’ve always done) it’s about issues, not about candidates and personalities.
Underscoreing that the GOP does not share their political views may be the first step to fascism in your eyes, but I think you are a small minority.
Bear in mind that pot growers are not interested in legalization. The libertarians could explain that one for you.
I greatly appreciate their firm stand against interventionism which alas figures large in Democratic party history.
Not sure. But she is clearly getting some intense coaching. Best way to cut her off at the knees is to get her on her own without a written script.
Frum or someone of his twisted caliber has to be writing her speeches.
Flipping the script…forget about the Bush administration years, forget about the mess the Obama administration inherited. Listen up. Fear, beat down unions, war on terror, I am an outside of the beltway kind of girl.
Correction Alert!
Jane wrote:
“I’ve now spoken with no small number of journalists reporting on the tea party phenomenon who don’t even seem to know that the first tea party in 2007 was held by Ron Paul supporters, and they actually dumped tea into Boston Harbor.”
Actually, the first Tea Party was held on the exact anniversary of the Revolutionary event by the good folks of Boston 9/11 Truth a year earlier in 2006. Many copies of the coverup “9/11 Commission Report” were thrown off the Moakley Bridge into Fort Point Channel.
I agree with you. Someone’s pulling her marionette strings, and she’s getting paid lotsa moolah (way more than the paltry $120k she got to “speak” at the convention). It was obvious that’s why she quit being governor: to make lots & lots of cash. Sister Sarah’s the grifter’s grifter. She doesn’t really care what brand she’s pushing, as long as she gets paid to do it.
With Bible Spice, I also always figured it was only a matter of time until she was owned by whatever “powers that be.” She is a marvelous PR tool because she OWNs a certain percentage of the demographic who will follow her into hell, if she commands them to do so.
Listening to her push for war with Iran sent cold chills up & down my spine. That’s no joke.
Interesting to watch the dynamics of a movement slowly being diverted using some of the same tricks that have worked so well against a few more liberal ideals. Clearly one of the tricks is to make corporate sponsorship important. Find someone to who will accept payment to promote your case and push them into the limelight.
The original weakness of the TEA Partiers is somewhat the same as that of progressives. They represented those that want to see a stronger separation between the government spending and corporate interests. That is, they wanted the bailouts stopped. Bailouts that started during the Bush administration but had plenty of supporters. This put them against government’s spending upon large businesses that in some cases exist simply because of government largess. Which put their central issue at odds with the majority of popular MSM conservatives. Their bigger problem is that the neocons that want to subvert their organization are good at modifying agendas and have access to the ears and spending plans of the people that want to maintain the status quo. The single act of paying Palin, who as governor never saw a bit of pork she didn’t like, $100,000 to preach about eliminating waste shows that the movement is already very close to being owned by the guys with the deepest pockets. The people they desperately need to weaken of are the ideologues that started this movement.
True believers contribute as much as they can to the causes they believe matter. Political mercenaries take their cut off the top.
Citizen fuckno:
The “Naderites”, do you really wanna go there…the coalition that Obama and HOWARD DEAN put together between 2006 and 2008 is the only viable political force that can defeat corporate fascism and it’s money. Sure let’s cut off our leg because we have a sore toe, let’s get the lunatic Nader and the crazy man Ron Paul together…then we’ll REALLY have sompthin!! Holy Christ, that’s some dangerous shit yer smokin, Brother!
You are way wrong on that one. Know plenty of growers in Calif, Ohio, Hawaii who have been pushing for legalization for a very long time. You are out of your league on that claim.
If you say so.
Yep, 150% yep.
Keep drilling that meme home hoss . . . over and over, again and again until every phreakin progressive (and the independents) gets it that it’s a class war and corporate/government facism that’s the beast, not the Kabuki of various ‘sides’ battling it out for domination of the planet be the sides political or ideological or social issue cause based . . . . I know to many I already sound like a broken record on this, but hey, repetition of message is part of the art of persuasion and attitude change . . *G*
“Not sure. But she is clearly getting some intense coaching. Best way to cut her off at the knees is to get her on her own without a written script.”
____
LOL. yeah, which then gets poignantly spun as Infuriating Totally Unfair Katy Couric Media Elitist Mistreatment.
Armey USURPED the role of TeaBagger leader, from the originators, whose names I forget . . . and Armey moved in FAST in the formative process of this movement . . . VERY fast, to usurp it. And of course, Armey is just the front man for the corp oligarchy.
this is the first time I have listened to the whole speech. Many clever lines written for an Alaska gal from out of the beltway. Sounds like Frum lines
Blackwater
I doubt many from the Tea Parties will be peeled off in the sense of getting them to vote for progressive candidates or for any Democrats. At best, it may be possible for someone to thwart the efforts of Republican Party operatives to get Tea Partiers out to vote for corporatist Republicans. What more can be done other than stopping them from turning out for Republicans who are not looking out for the interests of the American people? And, whatever can be done, do you really think that it’s our job to do it or that we even can do it?
Anyone trying to oust Ron Paul is a neo-con republican operative no matter what they try to pass themselves off as. Fact is that so-called tea-party convention was an attempted co-opting of the tea-party “movement” by republican party operatives. Power always tries to infiltrate and or kill of the leaders of nacient potentially disruptive movements. Many (who have studied the matter) think this is why John Lennin died and Tupak and MLK. Of course the media (being a tool owned by power) says otherwise. Its always a lone nut … of course right sure what-ever. Anyway Ron Paul says on his on blog why Sarah Palin (neo-con operative calling for killing innocent people in Iran that she is) endorsing his son Randy is a good thing. Basically (and I’m paraphrasing) any attention he gets is good. Ron Paul has been consistent, and at this, for 30 years… He knows exactly what both progressives and true conservatives are up against.
I tip my hat to you for listening to her speech; thanks for doing that (seriously) so I didn’t have to. I only heard mainly about her “hand job” notes, but when I heard a brief clip her beating the drum to attack Iran… I knew that was the real “talking point.” That much I heard, and that much I take really seriously.
Again: agree someone like Frum is coaching her real good and writing her speeches. Not surprised, but unhappy. So it goes.
In the big scheme of the masses of voters who get ALL their info from whatever the MSM feeds them, your posit is spot on target and to the core of the sitch. Nicely worded, short and simple, thanks!
They are going to use her to rally the veiled racist, bigots, union busting flip the script, blame the Obama administration, fearmongering warmongers.
She is delivering these sounds like Frum lines with much more skill than in the past.
Hope Tina Fey rips this speech apart. It was one canned line after another
I believe, citizen, that you need to refresh your understanding of what constitutes fascism. Obama would figure prominently esp. now, following the Bloomberg interview as Fascism’s leading usher.
Thanks for that. Funny that I was just thinking about John Lennon’s untimely death the other day in conjunction w/MLK. I take your point about Tupac. Yeah: just like Lee Harvey Oswald was this “happenstance” lone gunman… ummm hmmm… and the powers that be hated John Lennon, hated him, hated him…
The Tea Party was always doomed to be co-opted because most of those participating in it are authoritarians who spend a good part of every day getting their dose of brainwashing from the rightwing media (particularly GlennRushSeanBillo). I believe that many individuals in the tea party movement truly thought that it was “grass roots,” and it may have initially begun that way. But it very rapidly got overtaken by the corporations, and the individuals went firmly into denial about that. That’s when I stopped giving them much credibility.
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I’m goin’ ta take care of the new puppy and work out…when I come back I hope that we can start talkin’ about gettin the democratic base of the Democratic Party energized again to keep the pressure on the incumbant Democrats includin’ Obama to get healthcare, jobs and EFCA done. This talk of makin’ coalitions with Ron Paul is rediculous…he has how many votes in congress right now??!! Is he gunna leave the Republican Party if he wins re-election?? Good God Firepups, keep the eyes on the target, there is nuthin that Rahm and the corporatists want more than for the progressives to leave the party. Remember that the “conservative movement” is VERY small unless we give it our children…they can’t win unless they split us up and supress the vote!
Norske, they are about as disenfranchised as the progs are . . . and would be ROUNDLY rejected on any national level stage as much in many communities across the country.
Do the new Baggin/Ron Paul Libs have a presence? Yes. It’s being ginned up by the corps.
Do they have a voice? Yes. It’s being ginned up by the corp owned MSM.
Are their agendas, for the most part, ugly, mean and insane? Yes.
Are they a REAL threat to either party or the corporate facist present reality we are living under?
Not really, only insofar as to further support and serve the interests of the coro/facist status quo.
Like Tan said, they ain’t to be feared all that much, they ain’t the droid’s we’re looking for.
They are being played by the corp structure. I don’t believe the corp structure will be letting any one figure or ‘party’ make like 30′s Germany, after all, that lesson is painfully carved in history for all to see how it evolved and failed.
2010 presents a set of realities completely different from Reichstag Fire Germany.
In short, the facism is and has been ALREADY entrenched top to bottom WITHOUT a facist bsed populist movement to support it!
Don’t fall for the kabuki, keep your eyes on the real enemy, comrade!!!
Pass the pork, biscuits and a few cold one’s!
I’m with this guy.
yeah, hence the astroturfing of true populist anger.
Yeah, I had missed that comment . . . spot on, thanks for referring to it!
…which leads me to believe BibleSpice is coached by PNAC alumni, with Billy Kristol Myth as chief choreographer.
Several here I agree with here is my take:
Ron Paul as was demonstrated last year in the “primary debates, is a fringe player, and is there to channel a narrow segment of the field that sees through the fakery of the bigger republican mythology, to the way the game is rigged, vise vise the Fed. and war economy, etc.
He is tolerated because of old age, and his avuncularity, and has a nice disposition, thus he is perfect for the role he is enlisted to play.
He gives the whole movement a face. And not to disparage the person or the sentiment: that is at least on a “human scale,” as to the motives or wishes that it embodies, unfortunately it is also a way to marginalize all of it as merely quaint, and wholly not in the province of practical reality/
So I think Ron Paul’s weakness is the means to envelop and sink the idea.
“Oh yeah you gotta’ give em credit, there’s something to what they say, but… ”
But he is death on social security, and has long been a darling of the JBS, where any of the governmental answers to problems are taboo, except the largest socialism ever known, the military, (industrial complex… included, contracts etc.)
Citizen fuckno:
Sigh…we live in a system that has been used by the corporate fascists for over 65 years to keep us split against ourselves and to, of course get us to denounce and leave the only mass party aparatus we’ve got. If you think Obama’s a fascist then you are out there in the ether with Jimmi Hendrixx and the Pearl, so please stay there, I sure don’t wantcha in my political party.
“the coalition that Obama and HOWARD DEAN put together between 2006 and 2008 is the only viable political force that can defeat corporate fascism and it’s money.”
Good God, citizen, – snap out of your stupor!
The original Tea Party was done by us Ron Paul people. Ron Paul has always been against the foreign policy of aggression… what Democrats OR Republicans had the balls to do this in 2003?
Watch and be humbled…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aewpvcxAwTk
At least watch until he starts calling out the Neo Cons…
A better list..
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Neo-CONNED%21+by+Congressman+Ron+Paul+&search_type=&aq=f
Whoever can do this and retain credit for getting it done will be a Huge Winner. Why don’t DC insiders GET THIS????
“Right now you’re looking at an electorate that is ready to have a 15 point swing in favor of the GOP next November, courtesy of the image-makeover they’ve fashioned for themselves out of the tea parties.”
Outside the big picture of how badly the corporate/govt. structure owns and abuses us all, there IS that pesky little detail to attend to, isn’t there . . . ;-)
Reality, the details at hand when the big picture overwhelms . . .
Citizen Larue:
You are absolutely correct that our system has been used by the corporate fascists for a long time and we can’t get it back by leavin’ the Democratic Party on the acid trip of Ron Paul and his merry men!
Go back to sleep, Citizen.
Wouldn’t be caught dead in YOUR party, citizen.
Sorry … formatting got damaged…
The original Tea Party was done by us Ron Paul people. Ron Paul has always been against the foreign policy of aggression… what Democrats OR Republicans had the balls to do this in 2003?
Watch and be humbled…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aewpvcxAwTk
At least watch until he starts calling out the Neo Cons…
A better list..
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Neo-CONNED%21+by+Congressman+Ron+Paul+&search_type=&aq=f
Several here I agree with here is my take:
Ron Paul as was demonstrated last year in the “primary debates, is a fringe player, and is there to channel a segment that sees through the fakery of the bigger republican game, to the way it is rigged, like the Fed. and war economy, etc.
He is tolerated because of old age, and his avuncularity, and a nice disposition, so he is perfect for the role.
He gives the movement a face. that is at least on a “human scale,” unfortunately it is also a way to marginalize all of it as merely quaint, and not in the realm of practical reality.
So I think Ron Paul’s weakness is the clever means to envelop and sink the idea. This type stuff happens all the time. All those 3rd party candidates.
And he is death on social security, and has long been a darling of the JBS, where any of the governmental answers to problems are taboo.
Let’s watch Greece – there will be lessons to be learned when PIIGS fall from the sky.
Thanks for bringing up a great analytic process that often gets overlooked. Watching the msm rhetoric ebb and flow for any given issue . . . love this stuff.
I think we’ve seen, since 2000 on, a NUMBER of times where the level of msm ‘noise’ about doing Iran went up and down, like a yo yo on a string.
MY biggest worry along the way of it actually HAPPENING, was when the nukes went missing from Minot AFB, at almost the same time the Israeli’s had that little bombing run in Syria, I think it was (posited by some as a dry run of sorts to GET to Iran, thru Turk Air Space)?
So, not to diminish any present raised level of Iran Bombing Rhetoric, but we ARE in an election cycle, big time.
And HAWK TAWK will rise like a Phoenix, over and over, from the rightwing/neocon/corporate MIC interests who clamor for it. And the Dem’s will raise THEIR level of HAWK TAWK to look tough, too.
Never mind the military understanding that’s fairly well in place suggesting the Straits Of Hormuz become a duck pond free shoot after the sinking of one or two ships/tankers, blocking it and choking our naval forces off without an avenue of escape.
Never MIND the holy wrath of hell that would descend upon any American or Israeli interest anywhere (civilian or military) in the world as the various and disparate militant arms of Islam find cause for jihad beyond anything WE can possible understand, not to mention the slaughter our troops in Iraq, Af’Pak would endure.
So, I’ll gently suggest, it’s all political kabuki and rhetoric, at this point, and I’ll concur the level is up, and I predict it will rise significantly both as a political tool for the GOP and as a Kabuki Tool to distract from matters at hand such as domestic needs . . . the economy, lack of jobs, general populous unrest, etc.
There you go again, taking half of what I believe and using it to shit all over the blog.
Please, don’t agree with me anymore . . . I feel dirty.
I swear to god, as a die hard old school liberal, I almost hope Palin gets elected President. I think it would set the GOP back a hundred years at least, if not outright kill it, and the rest of us would survive. I think.
“I feel dirty” – as well you should.
Ron Paul could give a shit about working folks or middle class. He is not a “safety net” supporter. Small government means reducing “transfer payments” for entitlemwnt programs and other progressive programs. Where is he on single payer/univerrsal health care. Isn’t he anti “socialism”? government spending to create jobs ($100 billion is a drop in the bucket according to Krugman)
So who is holding the fix for the economy up?
Obama is positioning himself to work with a Republican congress as they are supportive of the AIPAC/isreali war agains tmiddle east Muslim countries. He will be getting huge corporate money for his populist campaign. He will sacrifice the USA/Global economy recovery for more war funds and continued bloated pentagon budgets so that the MIC and arms industry remain fat as BUSHCO did. He Obama is a wolf in sheeps clothing lip service to the left as marches steadily and quickly to the Right with The Chicago mob and Rahm leading him with corporate carrots.
Bushco appointees remain.
Nice summary, thanks.
Dude, those growers you claim to be ‘know’ (you DO know you just outed yourself as a connecting point to drug dealers on a blog site that’s monitored by government agencies, don’t you?) are mere drop in the bucket of large, criminal based syndicates who control the business nation wide.
I know this not because I KNOW anyone, but because I read a lot.
If one was to consider AlanK’s comment to be about the syndicate growers, his comment is spot on.
Exactamudo… Demo-publicans shill for both sides but when it comes to something AIPAC/NEo-C0n congressional military industrial congressional complex wants… they all join hands (after the requisite false flag operation used as a pretext) and sign on the dotted line… The rest (health care debate etc) is just Kabuki for show. The bankster bail-out for instance (which many progressives want to pin on Bush) would never have passed if Obama had not endorsed it. The WARS in Afghannistan and Iraq for instance… Bi-partisan support. FISA… Patriot Act… Nothing done about DIEBOLD hacking you name it… Demo-publicans join hands to shaft the American people every time. Libertairians and TRUE TEA PARTIERS (not neo-cons masquerading as such) and Progressives need to join forces to fight the demo-publican fascists.
Wrong.
Have you bothered to look up some FACTS you would have seen several video interviews with Ron Paul where he says that the safty nets are neccessary because our system and our people has become dependant on them and that until a long term solution could be found to take care of these people in a fiscally honest way he supports removing foreign bases and ending the aggressive foreign policy and use the money saved from the Pentagon to pay for these safety nets… does not give a shit? He actually has a REAL solution for the poor and middle class.
This proud ignorance and partisanship of both the LEFT and RIGHT must end. It is killing us… literally.
Seems to me that the Republican establishment (and MSM through Fox and others) is doing to Ron Paul what the Democrats did to Dennis K and progressives in general: push them to the periphery. Except this one is a lot more clever and devised plan where they found a faux leader in Sarah Palin and they are trying to defeat Paul in his district. He is a Republican who has said the truth about many things for many years and a good friend of our top-vote getter on this site, Dennis Kucinich. He deserves my respect, and progressives (like Grayson and Kucnich) can and have worked with him on serious issues.
PS. Do you think the Fed didn’t have something to do with trying to push him out?
Jane,
I have a serious question.
Do see any possibility that a misinformation campaign (perhaps by foreign agents) is being waged within the Tea Partiers ranks?
The mnsbc clip:
Ratigan wasted time bloviating and posturing with a ball, when there could have been important discussions.
I would have liked it if Jane would have gone ballistic at about 2/3 through it.
dropped a bomb on Dana. That Ratigan gave her too much of a free run, she seems the very picture of smug republicanism.
Get mean streak Jane. That is the missing ingredient. That’s what the president lacks. The enemy is “benign neglect.” Too nice won’t cut it.
Nicely phrased, thanks for the reply . . .
Why not co-opt these recent open televised meetings between Republicans and Obama and Democrats …
Open and public meetings between Ron Paul people and Progressives… lets see if our ideas can be practical.. and show the establishment Democrats and Republicans for the paid off shills that they are?
Some solutions to common goals do NOT require federal government some do.. lets have honest debate to find out what solutions are available without partisan smokescreens or party affilations.
Who’s leavin?
As to entangling alliances, if we can persuade just a handful of Ron Paul/Baggin/Loony White People of the South, Midwest and in the Survivalist States NOT to vote for the GOP, what harm?
*G*
Pass the big red meat and the bourbon, I’m hungry and thirsty in this foxhole!
There’s nothing in what you say that I’ve not been saying for years.
Thanks! We agree!
I think that the biggest point of divergence between the left and the Ron Paul version of Libertarianism is on the notion that governments should not meddle in the functioning of an unencumbered free market. This notion is what fundamntally ties libertarians with the GOP and dwarfs whatever other differences the two may have.
Of course it is precisely the form of government meddling in our bastardized Capitalist economic system that should be the subject of debate between the left and Libertarians if anything fruitful is to come from an alliance with them. It may well turn out that given the corrupt nature of our current form of government which is little more than an appendage of big business interests that less rather than more government would benefit the public.
On this point but from different motives the left and Libertarians may agree.
Sigh Obama is for big MIC, Big Pharma, MedicalINsurance and the Oligarchiy where his political bread is buttered. AIPAC is jumping for joy. Isreal wants to shut down the funding their opponents get from Iran, This will be a bombing campaign like “Schock and Awe” The Clintons and any Dems will support this slaughter.
I would like to point out what the Ron Paul people have often said on their forums about the progressives beliefs about “free markets”. The Ron Paul people have said several times that the progressives think that what we have had for the past several decades is free market capitalism… when in fact what we have had is soft facism… corporations paying off government for special treatment and an agreement to not enforce laws evenly on them… this is NOT free market capitalism. When the libertarians and Ron Paul people talk about true free markets they mean NO military industrial complex and NO crony capitalism… something this country has not seen in a long long time… so long most people no longer even remember what it is like to live without it.
nice won’t cut it and mean won’t either. Several million strong protesting would get Obama attention, but that is not what FDL seems to be about.
Wall Street can pump all it’s loot into elections, but if the Street won’t play it will be money down the drain for them. We need to stop playing their games and introduce them to our pent up frustrations and the power of our votes.
Whoever will be ready to take the lead in harnessing the mass disillusionment when it finally cascades into the open, will have a serious advantage in affecting Washington policies. So, sit on your asses and let the Republicans take the lead.
I come at this subject from a wierd place… I love Dennis Kucinich and I love Ron Paul. I also love Marcy Kaptur and other’s who have shown by their deeds they are in John Q Public’s corner. I’m an individualist (just like Dr. Paul and Dennis K) I believe in free markets (regulated free markets) and the rule of law. I also HATE proto-fascist collectivists be they Republican or Democrat (Obama, Hillary, or a majority of the so called Republican Neo-COns). People who demonize libertarians have no friken clue what any of these words mean. They’re mere cheerleaders rooting for thier team… simpletons consigned to being forever manipulated by the charlatans they’ll continue to elect. The only way change will come to America is if the majority (like me) stop allowing themselves to be divide and conquered, set aside thier differences and agree to work together to take on the now firmly entrenched money and power that are the god damn demo-publicans.
They’ve (MONEY AND POWER NEOCONS) been trying to defeat Paul in his district for a very long time but he’s much loved there.
I really wish I were as sure of that as you are!
http://economicedge.blogspot.com/
I think both sides have been coopted by neocons. They used Obama to coopt the progressives, and Palin to coopt the teabaggers. This is why I have come to the conclusion that we should organize around specific issues that the neocons can’t embrace, and we need to abandon both major parties, in favor of parties which have specific positions that neocons cannot embrace. I don’t think it moral to support a mainstream party, given the way they have been gamed by narrow but wealthy interests.
I believe that they are stupid enough to actually do it. Once done they will loose all support from their base and get nothing from the right.
We do have three parties and for the past 20 years the Centrist party has been drinking our milkshake.
Hey, Jane:
I’ve written that there’s much to admire about the Tea Parties – yes, even the less libertarian ones of late, that I assume Republican pros are desperately trying to co-opt. The really interesting question, though, is not why there is a Tea Party on the Right, but why is there not an analog to the Tea Party on the Left?
OK, members of the co-opted Veal Pen are not going to start or encourage a Tea Party of the Left. But what about the rest of the progressive leaders? community?
The closest candidate (or pre-candidate) for a Tea Party on the Left that I can think of is the budding Full Court Press. However, the Full Court Press does not yet have a narrative, which I think is an essential ingredient.
What are your thoughts as to why no significant Tea Party on the Left has arisen, yet? The original libertarian Tea Party did not rely on corporations paying for buses, so that is not a good reason (as some have proposed.)
The Supremes opened the door all the way for the oligarchy/corporatist to own our congress and government. Obama scolded them but where is the legislation to stop that. The renewal of the Patriot Act in the latest bill as a rider is an example of the not transparent process of government. Business as usual a different face at the helm. Look at the sideways direction of the stock market and 27% unemployment in the construction industry. People are pissed on all sides. Obama has not addressed the major problems but he will have a corporate war chest after his support of big bonus Wall street. Small business and main street are in the tank so where is the blue sky in partnering with Obama. Rachel Madddow got it right hammer the opposition. Obama threw his base under the bus. Lets have Dean as a candidate the Ds will have 8 more years to repair damage and move away from right wing policy.
(“It may well turn out that given the corrupt nature of our current form of government which is little more than an appendage of big business interests that less rather than more government would benefit the public.”)
Corrupt government is a cumbersome contrivance with inhearent inefficiency. But it is still better to keep it alive on the machine. Other wise there will be a flood, as the damn collapses, and the corporations fill the vacume, in ways not even dreamed of. Think: Privatization, on double steroids, no restraints, no need to fill out the forms, and etc.
I think it is coming, but so are… things like comets, catastrophes etc, unknowns, that undoubtedly will intercede the best laid plans, as they say.
Are you saying, “shrinking the government small enough to drown in the tub,” will work out?
Seems clear from my view but don’t underestimate the perspercasity of MIC the plans are in CENTCOM waiting for the word.
Excellent reporting Jane! Right now, sorry too say but both the Republican and Democratic parties are run by the Neocons. The Tea Party is now dominated by Neocons who are these ignorant Billy Bob Judeo Christian Republicans who watch Fox News. These Billy Bobs idolize Israel because they are brainwashed every Sunday at Church. They are taught by their Baal pastors to bless Israel and they and their nation will be blessed. Is America blessed right now? Far from it: we have multiple wars, our government is bankrupt, millions of Americans unemployed, idustrial jobs moved to other nations, children comimg down with elderly diseases, families broken up, drug addicts, etc. etc.
Neocons are war mongers, pro Wall Street bankers, pro Globalist, pro military industrial complex, pro pharma, anti civil rights and pro Israel.
Look at the Democrats in Congress, the President, and his chief of staff are all Neocons.
There is no difference between a Neocon Republican and a Neocon Democrat, they are both run by Wall Street.
would that be Bill Kristol, Dick and Liz Cheney, Mel Sembler, and the rest of the neo, theo, oil cons? Working for multinationals and Israel’s interest
“Four legs bad, two legs good”.
http://market-ticker.org/archives/1953-Wow,-Look-At-My-Jaws-Move-Bernanke.html
You say it better compadre
Growers have been pushing for a very long time for legalization. I am neither a smoker or involved in that world. If they want to check me out I am an open book.
Lots of potential tax dollars not being collected on a product that could be taxed.
Obama is foremost an accomplice to the unimpeded fascist takeover of the federal government by big business. He is an onlooker who through weakness and cowardice is paralyzed to act against a system with which he fundamentally agrees. His approach is to set some meaningless guideposts that corporations can follow as they take over the economy and government without missing a beat.
Obama is a thorougoing bastardized capitalist true believer, he just thinks that admonishing them for excesses will win him points with voters. I will take an unadorned snake to a thinly disguised snake as a foe in order to fight against it more effectively.
Hell even William F Buckley was saying legalize pot tax it. Billions could be made
http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/07/commentary/wastler/wastler/
High Court’s pot mistake
Lost in Supreme shuffle: $14 billion in benefits we’re missing by not legalizing and taxing pot.
June 7, 2005: 1:14 PM EDT
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NEW YORK (CNN/Money) – Pot should be legal. We could use the money. But that’s getting ignored in the wake of this week’s Supreme Court decision.
That decision, if you missed it, essentially said that federal law trumps state law and since the Feds say no pot, then no pot. It’s a frightening decision on a constitutional level. I’ve never been a fan of the idea that people in places like California and Mississippi should have a say in how I choose to pursue happiness in New Jersey. And if my state says I can smoke a doobie — okay, smoke one if a doctor says I need to smoke one — what gives people in an entirely different state, through our federal system, the right to say I can’t? Thomas Jefferson would tell me to fire up.
But the Supreme Court said no, based on the interstate commerce clause. You see, the feds can regulate a local activity, like growing pot in your backyard, if it can conceivably affect an interstate market, like the $10.5 billion market for marijuana. Hey, the argument is as honest as the pothead contingent arguing that this case was only about using marijuana to ease the pain and suffering of disease-stricken people. Once doctors can write prescriptions for pot, the market is de facto legalized.
Jane, after Ron Paul’s kudos to Progressives for agreeing with Libertarians on the war-with-Iran rhetoric coming from both sides, why don’t we push for a joint statement on the matter?? Neocons in both parties are pushing the US and Israel towards launching some offensive.
I’m seriously concerned with Israel’s itchy trigger-finger being forced to act with America secretly promising full support. The US and Israel could also by a host of methods lure Iran to attack first.
Regardless, our statement should read something to the effect that if Israel should unilaterally launch any act of aggression towards Iran without a justifiable cause -by our standards- the following shall occur: (a) all aid to Israel will cease immediately; (b) under no circumstances will the US join Israel or take any part in the offensive in any manner;(c) no assistance will be given to Israel in any manner resulting from the after effects of such aggression.
It’s time we tell Israel “You sleep in the bed you make”!
Did you look at the clip? Do republican women (and men) have daughters? :o)
Actually, I think it’s “courtesy” of Obama’s ongoing rehab program for the GOP.
There have been lefty “tea party” themed groups before. It’s generally a more revolutionary theme and doesn’t really fit liberal democrats (e.g. people who want to change things by voting).
http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/multipage/documents/04052845.asp
I am saying that the present government is passed the point where it will serve as meaningful vehicle for the assuring of the public good. People ought to take the initiative at the local and state level to act in the furtherance of their interests. And there are many ways that the public can do this.
The main obstacle to a decent life for the vast majority of the people in the US is concentrated wealth which has usurped the government and profited enormously in the process. So underming the means of profit making by corporations should be high on the agenda of the public at large because it can not presently rely on the federal government to accomplish that end.
It is on this point that there is common ground with Libertarians although this alliance of convenience is fraught with risks since the underlying motives are different. Whereas the Libertarians advocate for an unencumbered free market economy it is that very thing that the left opposes and is what has lead to the horrible state of affairs we are now suffering under.
Norske; not kidding atall. Those wingers are NO threat. They’re maxed out. It’s the goddamn “centrists” in the white house who’re using us progressives for their shitting post.
You DO understand that, right, pardner? :o)
I would ask all and sundry:
Which is the bigger threat? That Sarah Palin is firing up the flat-earth society?
Or that Barak Obama thinks that the Goldman-Sachs honchos and their ilk are wonderful Captains of Industry?
As I said, the worst thing that Palin’s gibberish is accomplishing is providing some progressive bloggers who are still in denial about Obama’s selling us out, with some cover for ignoring the latter, while yowling about the former.
I believe that is a mis-diagnosis of how we got where we are. Libertarians don’t like it any better than progressives. We got where we are through a process known as incrementalism. The plan to take us to where we are no was forge in the UK in the 19th century… the Fabian society that believed in elite rule (Google John Ruskin who influenced Cecil Rhodes and inturn every friken Rhodes scholar since including Bill Clinton, Howard Dean,Rachael Maddow Heather Wilson and ad on infinitum) … Read Fabian HG Well’s: The Open Conspiracy penned in 1935 which laid out the elite’s “take-over” plan. Today democrats and republicans alike are all collectivists wedded to notion of Elite rule. Democracy is messy… they prefer fuedalism.
Yes this makes eminent sense.
The left progressive party you might call it could act as a separate swing voting bloc which could ally with whomever proposed issues we agree with. And likewise vote against policies we disagree with. As an independent voting bloc we could generate a majority as the issues suited our interest and a majority to vote down issues we perceive as against our interests.
EXACTLY! The Democratic party is used by the elites to divide and conquer. It must go the way of the wigs if we’re ever to make any progress. Here is a cogent take on the problem: http://www.stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/stopme/
hazmaq,
Sorry to say but our foreign policy maker is not the President of the United States, but it is Rahm Emanuel, a former Israeli soldier.
There is a strong probability that some planned event (false Flag, or Winter Olympics false terror event) will happen, it will be blammed on Iran, the major news media will spin it and the dumb Billy Bobs will start waving flags and signing up for the new war with Iran.
The bankers will make billions, the military industrial complex will make billions, Israeli Zionist will get their way again, our economy will rebound because of this planned war with Iran and the President will look like a hero for getting us out of this economic depression.
I think this is why Jerry Brown is hanging around in the background. He wants the populism to overflow so he can take advantage of it. They’ll point out Meg as a Moneybags Country Club Republican that’s trying to buy the Governors Office and has never bothered to vote (Like Carlifornia) until recently.
This race like Hilary’s is Brown’s to loose he better not make the same mistakes Hilary’s camp did and to use a football analogy – “Throw your helmets on the field expecting to win easily”
The legalizing of pot, the 39% hike in State University tuition and Single Payer Health Care (SB810) will likely encourage those under 30 to vote in higher numbers just like in the Fall of 2008.
This is a Deeply Blue State, its finally time to align the Democrat controlled State Legislature with a Democrat in the Governors seat.
I am maintaining that corporate interests have dominated the functioning of the federal government and the economy generally and for that reason the public should not look to the government to solve the its needs. Instead they should focus their attention and effort on local and state initiatives to curb the rights of corporations and to set up alternative programs to meet their needs.
I am not quite sure what your position is aside from reading about the Fabian society. What exactly is this elite group that you refer to that wants to run the country for their ends if not concentrated wealth exemplified by corporations?
Where is the mis-diagnosis? Is it turning away from the federal government in favor of local initiatives? If so then you have much more undeserved faith in this modern day government to re-invent itself. I don’t see that happening anytime soon. But of course you are welcome to wait.
My current operational definition of the political spectrum, left to right, in terms of Congress and the parties:
- Progressive Democrats
- Corporatist Democrats
- Corporatist Republicans
- Libertarian Republicans.
The difference between corporatist Democrats and corporatist Republicans is insignificant in effect. They are a consistent ruling body regardless of which party holds the WH or Congress.
The significant Democratic majorities in Congress and the WH (and the lack of change this has brought) has exposed the fact that, although progressives outnumber corporatists within the Democratic party, it’s the corporatist Democrats who control the levers of power when Democrats are in power, given corporatist Democrats identity with corporatist Republicans.
Had we elected a progressive Democrat president (as some of us, including myself, were naive enough to have thought we had), and were the number of progressive Democrat senators > 50, then we could expect more than the Kabuki theatre we have now, most recently in the form of interminable cries for “bipartisanship”. But with a corporatist president and no more than say 45 progressive Democrat senators, …
Norske,
I can tell you are a fellow progressive but for the life of me I can’t tell what course you advocate as the best tactic.
We can all agree that this “get” is what we all want. Obama and huge Democratic majorities have failed us. Exactly what does this coalition have to show for itself since about say March?
” PuhLEEZE Sister Jane, Ron Paul and his original band of brothers (very few sisters there) are linear disendants of the originalist, strict constructionist American fascists of the ante bellum American South. You can trace their lineage from the John Birchers and the Dixiecrats to the America Firsters to the original KKK to the No Nothings and right to the firebreathing nullifiers of the 1850’s. This guy and his followers are not pure, honest hard workin’ American conservatives, they represent the purest form of fascist populism that the world has ever seen and the good ol’ boys from the original Ron Paul Tea Party will NEVER, EVER coalesce with progressive Democrats in any national election effort unless they coopt the coalition and pack it’s leadership.
Anyone who plays coy footsie with these folks in order to split the coprorate oligarchy plays a dangerous game…please look at the history of the last years of Weimar Germany and the ascendence of fascism on steroids when the oligarchy in Germany figured they’d throw in with this paper-hanger because they were sure they could control ‘im.”
Nonsense. Ron Paul has a 30 year record and nothing racist in it. He has refuted that he supports those you mention, and whether they support him for whatever reason is irrelevant, IMHO. They may have their own reasons for supporting specific isolated issues that don’t have anything to do with his. I am absolutely certain murderers and felons voted for every president we ever had, and most other politicians. That doesn’t impact the target of their votes.
This is another issue we are never going to see eye to eye on — not the racism bit, we’re pretty much with you on that. However the pandering ‘distancing’ to distinguish from people you never authorized to speak for you to begin with is seen as utter crap by everyone I know. That goes for Reid, too. Ron Paul isn’t someone with an unknown record. He doesn’t have to hold up to be pilloried in the media some private volunteer who wrote in an old newsletter when he was in medical private practice to show he isn’t racist, his record and his entire consistent philosophy shows that.
Don’t like everything about us, you don’t have to. We agree on some issues. Why shouldn’t we work together to get something accomplished on those issues? Unless you really just want to keep them as wedge issues and don’t want to make any progress.
” The media want so paint everything as bad for Dems, but there really is an anti-incumbent mood. I think that is one reason why sitting Govs like Crist and Perry are doing badly. Voters are angry at all politicians, Dems just happen to control more offices so there is more anger at them. ”
That is true, to a great extent but it is against the leadership of both parties. I don’t think it is aimed at Kucinich, Sanders, Ron Paul, for some examples. (Regardless of the fake ‘tea party’ challengers to RP.) In the GOP it is a sense of intense betrayal at the bailouts, and many independents were galvanized by that and the stimulus bill, and all by the idea that our government is run for special interests, and not for the people.
All of which I consider to be a good thing. The party out of power always has more ‘room’ to clean house, because their leadership is more replaceable. You are welcome to clean house in your own party as well. I’d be happy to make some suggestions….
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0210/32738.html
That refers to the latest poll on Medina, Perry and Hutchison.
I don’t dispute that Libertarians believe in no government involvement in the functioning of free markets and that is what I have said. I also claim that the left does not believe in that.
Tenets of the left include that government’s involvement in the public financing of health care and social security for the aged are worthwhile government plans. As are progressive taxation and limits on the inevitable abuses of the public’s well being by the pursuit of business profits. In short the left does not believe in some inviolable principle of free markets as an end in itself.
Whereas the Ron Paul iteration of libertarianism hold those beliefs.
LOL!! Response to all of those saying we have nothing in common — whatever.
I’m in California. The blatant purchase of the governorship aimed for is truly alarming to me. I have many differences with Jerry Brown, likely as many as you have with Ron Paul, but I think he is honest. Am I wrong? I liked him as a student, long ago, before I turned ‘conservative’. Since then I never heard anything that made me think he sold out, but I really haven’t tracked him. I’m probably going to end up voting for him unless I find something that makes him unpalatable, though.
So, maybe we have no common ground in the 2010 elections, maybe we just don’t in the primaries. (In my state they are closed to party members, only.)
I don’t care, perhaps the only way we’re going to have any impact in elections is to join–if we can–with the Ron Paul libertarians. It’s the only way any of us are going to have any clout at all in the upcoming elections. Put aside those difference that divide us. They are less important than the dire circumstances the corporatist Democrats and Republicans are envisioning for us. Obama will never stand for anything that doesn’t benefit him personally and/or politically, and it’s time to stop hoping he will.
I agree with those who call him a narcissist. By playing to his vanity, the corporatists have molded him into their ideal candidate.
Agreed! Kucinich/Paul or Dean/Paul in 2012. Platform: Anything But THIS.
Good post Jane!
The current pseudo Tea Party is a 2009 Beck/Fox Co-opt with a megaphone. The problem is it cares about power and not People. It promotes the war mongering agenda of the dis-information Fox Network.
Ron Paul a simple man with a young message and that is Liberty. The best means for liberty on this earth (ever) is the US Constitution.
The problem with the pseudo Beck/Palin Tea Party is… Crisis Trumps the Constitution!
The good is that many people are seeing the failure of Bush and now Obama when it comes to foreign policy and are now listening to the Doctor.
Congress… do you job and take control of the purse strings and decisions of war.
The US Constitution was NOT an Accident… We Need to Use It!
and to gonalb at 140 as well: ditto.
the neocons and neoprogressives have joined hands hence a foreign policy none here like. They don’t join hands on size of govt issues generally. We need an antidote to where they ARE joined together — where progressives and libertarians just so happen to be unified in opposition, just not ‘joined’ nor ‘coordinated’ in opposition.
Issue by issue, and be honest about where our limits are.
ALL extremes are too far. Pure free markets are unrealistic. Ron Paul is limited government.. not NO government. I have to make this same argument on the dailypaul sometimes… people get caught up on extremes that are unrealistic. Some people try to go to logical extremes and forget reality on all sides including Ron Paul people. There have been statements made at dailypaul.com that “government should be abolished”… that is NOT Ron Pauls opinion.. it is NOT the founding fathers opinion. The founding fathers MADE the federal government. It MUST exist.. in limited form.
When intelligent people set aside partisanship and rely on reason they will find there IS a single balance between right and left based in reality that works… SOME things must be done by government… somethings are best done outside of government… until we spend enough time HONESTLY discussing these issues we wont know which is which… education at the federal level? Dept of Education? Maybe not needed… Health Care at the federal level? Maybe not needed… for profit health insurance? Maybe not needed… who knows.. until we have honest discussions without partisanship and other distorting factors we just dont REALLY know.
In district where the Republican is bound to win, we help the Ron Paul types.
In districts where the Democrat is bound to win, they help progressives.
A summit with the major players hammering out some kind of platform would be nice as a prerequisite for further union.
Oh, by the way, to hell with all the “purity” trolls. We are under occupation and must unite with our fellow Americans to fight back. Join or die.
Of course people like the Birchers and Jim Rogers like Ron Paul. His economic policies are reactionary. That is well known. And we certainly are not teaming up with Ron Paul on his small government issues.
The vast majority of people who supported Ron Paul in the 2008 presidential primaries fell into one of two categories:
1) rank and file military
2) college age or recently graduated
Basically people who are the most likely to see themselves and/or thier friends and loved ones destroyed by the neocon wars in Iraq and Afgahnistan.
The idea that pro-war neocon R’s and D’s can team up to push our nation into perpetual wars but anti-war R’s and D’s should not team up to shut down the neocons…. that’s just crazy. The neocons are enemy number 1.
On a side note, one definent plus that Ron Paul has provided is getting our youth to stop watching Fox News. Here’s an old clip of Ron Paul supporters chanting “Fox News Sucks” while chasing Sean Hannity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RVPLvFm9DQ&feature=related
The most common of Ron Paul donators worked for either Army, Air Force, Microsoft, or Google (people in thier 20s and 30s)
There is nothing “reactionary” about Ron Pauls economic ideas. They are quite old and well thought out. Based on things like not letting banks lend many many times more money than they have actually taken in for deposits… and saving money to make big expenditures instead of borrowing it all. http://mises.org/
By small government Ron Paul means the same thing the founding fathers meant… seperation of powers… distributed power to avoid anything like a King again… It does NOT mean NO government … just seperating the power out between the Fed and the states.
The Republicans are having a hard time harnessing this mavericky group they’ve put together, er stole from Ron Paul. Even Sarah Palin has quickly discovered it’s a hard pony to ride.
Jobs & keeping people in their homes and health care insurance!
Sounds good, doesn’t it. I wish we could get the HCR done tomorrow in the depths of the Washington snowmageddon. That would be hilarious. It would be nice to get a notch on the post.
Repubs have made it clear they’re not budging. Time’s a wastin’. What else do we have to do on a snowy day except drink some hot tea and pass HCR?
Limiting leverage isn’t really particular to any school of economic thought. It’s common sense to anyone except maybe Alan Greenspan, his Chicago School friends and Wallstreet.
I know a good bit about Ron Paul’s economic policies. It’s pretty much Austrian School(mises institute), gold or gold&silver standard currency, eliminate benefit programs(SS&Medicare), eliminate department of education, eliminate central banking… stuff like that.
And yes I know he’s not talking about eliminating SS and medicare overnight but rather wants to transition away from them. And yeah, he’d save money by ending the wars before he’d touch benefit programs. But still, these are reactionary policies. They aren’t criminal like our corrupt Wallstreet bankers but they are reactionary.
Let me tell you about the beauty of Social Security, It’s the one damn thing that Wallstreet bankers cannot steal. They can steal from your 401K, from your pension. They can devalue your home. They can even devalue savings stored as gold my manipulating gold markets. But they cannot steal your Social Security benefits.
And any currency based on a commodity which is relatively static in quantity (such as gold) allows the people at the top to game the system beyond belief. It also tends to push the economy into deflation mode.
That’s not to say there’s no room for compromises with Ron Paul on some economic issues. We tend to agree on greater FED oversite but not on it’s abolishment. And I think there would be some overlap in interest with resurecting the old FDR era Bretton Woods trade system(gold settlement of trade imbalances). We’d probably need a bigger commodity basket than simply just gold but the principle would be the same… curb excess money printing and protect the dollar.
Thank you once again Jane! I am a small-l libertarian who has embraced alliances with the progressive movement to help better realize liberty in areas we see eye to eye.
As a libertarian I can tell you right now that it’s going to take a whole lot more than pot legalization to create an alliance. Unfortunately libertarians have developed a stereotype of having no other message other than wanting nothing more than to reach that holy grail of pot legalization. There are more libertarians I would argue who don’t touch the stuff, like me, than who use it. Like any libertarian I too fully support decriminalization of marijuana. However libertarians are by and large not about pot legalization but are fighting the fight on the economic front. Ours is a serious political philosophy about the state and its reduction or even its elimination. How many progressives are ready to join us for that fun fight. :)
Pot decriminalization is a second order maybe even third order fight that flows out of our philosophy of the state and the individual. So while we may find ourselves on the same side on some issues (war, pot, the fed, etc) we do so for radically different reasons. In the end, and I mean this with the utmost respect as a guest commenting on this progressive blog but with no apologies, I say that progressives are only a little different than conservatives. Progressives just want to use the power and violence state to take my liberties away from a different angle. Libertarians consistently oppose the violence of the state when its done in the name of helping people abroad and domestically.
BTW before I forget this was a very good piece about the Tea Party. She hit the nail on the head. These folks are not all about seriously reducing government. If they were there is already a grassroots movement they could’ve joined, its Paul’s Campaign for Liberty. This tea party is a sideshow of the establishment war party. There was plenty to complain about under Bush, where were they?
As a libertarian member of the TEA Party AND C4L, I have to slightly disagree with you about the TEA Party. From my personal experience with my local TEA Party members they are more libertarian than conservative or neocon. Following is someting I posted elsewhere in response to:
Re: Tell Sarah Palin and the Tea Partiers to Stop Lying
by the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee:
I expect you will ignore this, but the Democrats are just as big liars as the Republicans. Neither of those two parties has told the American people a REAL truth in decades. You Dems keep trying to connect Sarah Palin to the TEA Party (and so do the neocon Republicans), but those of us who first started the TEA Parties, dislike her (and Bush and Cheney and Rove and the GOP), intensely, we dislike them as much as we dislike Obama, Biden, Clinton and the Democrat Party. Both parties have done all they can to destroy the America our Founders envisioned, but they aren’t content to stop there. They want to regulate, tax and restrict even more. They are trying to create real fascist tyranny over all individuals, requiring the people to get and carry licenses to exercise every one of our unalienable rights and wanting registration of our every possession, while taxing us to the point we have no ability, any longer, to provide for our own welfare. We, the People, do NOT need permits or licenses from government to exercise our rights.
We in the REAL TEA Party want both major political parties to go away, forever! Both parties have betrayed the people. We want a complete restoration of individual freedom (personal AND economic). We want congress (and our state legislatures) to stick to its Constitutionally enumerated powers and quit interfering in our private and business lives. We want taxes to be drastically reduced, so that we are paying, at maximum, 10% of our income, total, to ALL levels of government, combined. We want our troops removed from all foreign lands (except those who are on duty as guards at our embassies). We want our borders secured. And we want our “National Guard” troops to be “State Guard” troops under the sole control of the State in which they are located, not sent off to illegal wars by order of congress or the president. We want Congress to actually declare war, if war is really necessary, before our troops are sent against a foreign military, rather than passing off the buck to “call up the forces” to the prez (which is patently illegal by virtue of being absolutely unconstitutional). And we want the government to declare war ONLY when a foreign military has directly attacked our lands.
We are damn sick and tired of the government and the corporate world being hand in glove, NO MORE CORPORATE WELFARE! And no more creating regulations that make it difficult to impossible for upstarts/innovators to compete with the entrenched big boys. NO more government “oversight” agencies (FDA, SEC, FCC, etc.), they have all ended up protecting the companies/industries they are supposed to be watch-dogging, and as Consumers Union, the Underwriters Labs and Good Housekeeping have proven (again and again), private organizations do a better job of protecting consumers from faulty products than government ever has. No private businesses acting like government agencies and using the force of government to defraud the people (The Fed), and no more government agencies spying on people (FBI, CIA, DEA, ATF, etc.). If the government acts only within the Constitution, there is no need to spy on Americans or even foreign nations.
All law enforcement, Constitutionally, is under your County Sheriff, there is no need for state police or federal police or even city police, the Sheriff is supposed to be the highest officer of the law in every part of his/her county, because s/he is the only LEO elected to his/her position (so be certain you elect a Sheriff with ethics, examine his/her history, carefully, before you vote).
You know, the freedom to associate (enshrined in the BoR) implies the freedom to discriminate. We do NOT want to be forced to associate with liars, crooks, self important nannies, lazy asses, or those who would control our lives in ANY way whether those be politicians, activists, job seekers, potential renters, potential customers, or our neighbors; and we do NOT care if those with whom we prefer to not associate be white, yellow, red, brown, purple, green, orange, blue or black, we base our discrimination on attitude and ethics, NOT on color.
We work hard for our money and we resent being FORCED to have any of our income subsidize criminals and parasites, at a detriment to our own families. We want to be free to give directly to those charities we feel are doing the best job of caring for those who (legitimately) cannot care for themselves (whether temporarily or permanently unable) thru no direct fault of their own; we do NOT want our charitable gifts to be filtered thru a government agency and have most of it go to bureaucrats and the remainder primarily to those who are not deserving of aid. We are damn sick and tired of one-size-fits-all government programs which cost ten times as much as necessary and continually fail to accomplish their objectives, while some who are truly deserving fall thru the cracks and others who are NOT deserving ride on the gravy train.
We want an end to the war on drugs, we each own our bodies and government (and busybodies/ would be nannies) have no legitimate authority to deny our right to ingest whatever we so desire, that goes for foods and supplements, too. We want to be able to set the rules for what is allowed on our own personal property, even if that property is a business, like a bar or restaurant, where the public is invited to shop/drink/or eat, if we want to allow our customers or employees to smoke on our property, that is our RIGHT, and government has no legitimate authority to interfere in that decision. The ONLY place where government has any legitimate authority to determine which legitimate activities by individuals are banned is within government buildings (and even that is questionable since we, the people, own those buildings and the property upon which they sit and government exists only with our permission) and prisons (for obvious reasons).
We want a return to real individual freedom and real free markets, with absolutely no government interference unless some constitutional crime (murder, assault, fraud, theft, extortion, or property damage) is committed. We want our unalienable rights PROTECTED by government, rather than restricted; we do NOT need government’s permission to exercise our rights.
Get it thru your propagandized and oh, so thick skulls, the TEA party is NOT really associated with any conservative or Republican organizations, nor is it associated with any liberal or Democrat organizations, no matter how much those organizations want to control our agenda. If the GOP or Sarah Palin are associated with any so-called TEA party event, you can bet the REAL TEA partiers are not going to attend that event, except to heckle.
“they cannot steal your Social Security benefits.”
Oh yes they can.. in fact they already have. Can you say dollar devaluation? Also, look up the inventor of the idea of Social Security.. The historically famous progressive Otto Von Bismarc.
“And any currency based on a commodity which is relatively static in quantity (such as gold) allows the people at the top to game the system beyond belief. It also tends to push the economy into deflation mode.”
This nugget of “conventional” wisdom among a crowd almost eager to call others “reactionary” is quite ironic. First, for one, this is absolutely false, based on Keynesian Macro, which by the way were best suited for the 3rd Reich, according to Lord John Maynard Keynes himself! Second, the same “progressive” people of the working class people are eager to follow ivory tower elites like Krugman, without having the faintest idea of how ridiculous these ideas really are. I am hoping at this point that you have no idea.. the alternative is just too depressing.
Do you really think that paying people to dig ditches and then paying other people to fill them back up – is a good way to create jobs and make people rich. Even a child will see the shell game there. And I am not even kidding or implying! This IS exactly what Keynes argued then and Paul Krugman argues even today! These people tell you that commodity backed money is bad and like good little sheep you believe them?!
What??? You mean a populist anti-Establishment reformist movement has been infiltrated by uber-statist Establishment corporate warfare/welfare whores???
Well, I am shocked! Just shocked!
By no means was I trying to broad brush the Tea Partiers. I should have been more clear. Of course there are in any movement a variety of people. I have no doubt that there are C4L folk inolved which is great. The problem is that Im not convinced Palin is necessarily the anti-establishment icon people make her out to be. To this day I dont know what makes her so rogueish as she claims. Why hasnt she consistently endorsed candidates of a tea party bent? No endorsement for Debra Medina in Texas but one for Rand Paul in KY? Not necesarily wrong but not principled as she makes herself out to be. My gut tells me strongly she has a neocon streak in her. I still wonder why these people were not out voting for Ron Paul in 08? No one is more anti establishement and libertarian. My guess is that they were marching to the war party’s song and dance. Why do you think 3 people who say they are part of the tea party are running against Ron Paul in TX? You guessed it, they are neocon war mongers. Thats the difference. Nonetheless maybe you and others can keep the Tea Party from being polluted, very best wishes sincerely.
Lets no be too cynical. The C4L is statying strong.
I’m an anarchist. I don’t believe in Utopia. I support Ron Paul. I know that Ron Paul is not an anarchist. I don’t care whether or not he’s racist. This entire debate between progressives and libertarians, and this idea that they should unite, is laughable. You see, progressives ARE utopians. Progressives believe in a world where no one is racist, ever has been racist or has ever had a racist thought. I’m not a racist. I don’t hate any race of people. I’ve uttered racial slurs. I’ve told and laughed at racist jokes. I’ve thought at some length about some pretty racist shit. I’m not ashamed to admit this. It’s called being a human being.
Though I suppose one persons soup is another person’s stew. I’ll be labeled a racist. It’s okay. I’m not upset or confused about it.
Progressives believe that government, taxes and economic fantasy is good. Libertarians, at least ones with brains, know that these things are bad. In fact, those who have studied economics, and I’m referring to Austrian economics, tend to have clearer and more concise points in debate. They are also more consistent.
I’m a pessimist. I see nothing coming of the Tea Party Movement, Ron Paul, Libertarianism or Progressivism. It’s all a pipe dream. But it’s fun to see Washington’s feathers in a bunch over all of this. In the end, all political ideologies are diluted by the voting public, who for the most part, are skittish and spineless. It’s why the Germans believed they were free under the Nazis. It’s why so many of us think we’re free now. We aren’t living in Nazi Germany, but it’s going that way.
As for free-market libertarians and anarchists being fascist, I don’t see how this applies. Obviously someone is a little too liberal in their application of the term fascist. Shall I break it down? Very well…
The reason free-market anarchism/minarchism is not fascism is that they effectively remove the baby from the breast so-to-speak. The government is able to subsidize businesses, businesses love to be subsidized, it gives them an edge. I don’t believe in the altruism of businessmen. The difference between a business and a government is that government can tax. This is the greatest act of violence that can be inflicted upon a society. These mobsters of the common “good” confiscate property at the barrel of a gun and then pump that money into projects, businesses, departments, wars blah blah blah.. The reason a private business in incapable of becoming a totalitarian regime on the scale of government is that they are too busy competing. In a government-free world, corporate corruption would still exist, but it would be much more costly to the business itself. Fraud would still take place, but it would much more difficult to carry on a con for too long. You see, the thing about businessmen is that they are always trying to screw each other. Sometimes they form huge alliances, but the vast majority of these are propped up by government contracts, programs, wars, etc… see the pattern?
The reason corporations are able to grow to the size they currently operate is due to government. I don’t know that government and businessmen can ever realistically be separated. Again, I’m a pessimist.
I believe in liberty, and all the ugliness that comes with it. Freedom is messy. Progressivism is neat, orderly and ultimately the end of the individual.
It’s interesting to me that some want to paint as “fascist” one of the few politicians who has taken consistently not-fascist positions, whether we want to define fascism as corporatism or as imperialist war mongering–including the current racist anti-arab/islam pogram in the mid-east.
I think the more likely truth of incipient fascism in the US today has so scared the be-jeebus out of some people that it has them reaching for any available white guy, cracker, or evangelical to pin it on–whether such a case can be made or not.
Dick Cheney? Sure. He’s a fascist. You’ll get no argument from me.
Anyone on here who thinks Ron Paul is a fascist doesn’t know what that word means and should go back to school and study up a little more before they comment on grown-up issues.
Anyone on here who doesn’t understand that it was the PROGRESSIVES who started building the friggin American empire in the first place is just retarded. You all have far more for which to atone, what with your support of an ideology that has wasted more people in the past 100 years than the neocons could dream. You don’t have the time to concern yourself with “insensitive” statements made by Ron Paul about issues most people would agree upon if they didn’t fear getting beaten over the head with the PC club.
Abe Lincoln, who killed almost a million Americans so Northern industry wouldn’t have to compete against overseas manufacturers for Southern business and then said it was all for slavery, hoping no one would notice the utter hypocrisy of a committed racist uttering these sentiments a year after the shooting started was the original American Progressive. He ended habeus corpus, jailed and exiled dissenters and instituted martial law hundreds of miles from the front lines. And this is the man we hold up as our greatest president. If this is the yardstick we use, Georgie Bush has gotta be in the top 5.
Teddy Roosevelt of San Juan Hill, Panama Canal and Great White Fleet fame – Progressive
Woodrow “he kept us out of war” Wilson – Progressive
FDR, Mr. Great Depression who had American sailors fighting and dying in the Atlantic MONTHS before Pearl Harbor – Progressive
You folks, after all these decades of watching your attempts to midwife Utopia in our time go down in flames, just refuse to learn that the government can never and will never be this benevolent benefactor you all hope/pray/dream it will someday become.
Remember that it was Nazi Germany (the National SOCIALIST Party) that created the first national park in Europe, came out publicly against smoking and “unhealthy” lifestyles (Hitler would have LOVED Whole Foods), severely restricted firearms ownership, and on and on and on.
Now who does that platform remind you all of? Ron Paul?
Or yourselves?
God forbid the libertarians ever side with the progressives.
Now, now….it’s not really that bad.
It’s time to head back to the basement where there’s a fresh bag of Cheetos waiting for you.
Wow! Where to begin?
Well, National SOCIALIST was a name not indicative of the actual party. So I bet you got that one from Jonah Goldberg.
Yeah, I bet FDR paid the Japanese to bomb Pearl Harbor so that he could declare war on them just so that Hitler could then declare war on the US.
Of course, the fact that Ron Paul did have a bunch of racist articles in a news letter under hsi name doesn’t mean anything. Why he has no idea where those came from – they just magically appeared and by gum, he just doesn’t know how they got there.
Ah hell, just go on back to Red State or PJTV. I’m sure they love you over there
Well my comments for RBG and dakine01 seemed to be too much for the powers that be who regulate this realm of the so-called progressive defenders of free ideas, so I’ll just have to leave you two with the knowledge that your minds ran up against a brick wall that’s not moved by your name calling and attempts at character assassination. I’ve seen it often enough to know that it’s the last refuge of inferior intellect.
Wow. Don’t know who you’re whining about but it’s been my experience that folks at FDL tend to encourage actually exchanges of ideas. However, coming in with lectures that sound like they came directly from Lyndon LaRouche telling us we’re all idiots tend to not get much respect.
Well, since I would play some small part in what might be construed to be:
When you have a constructive idea about how to advance the progressive agenda, feel free to share it.
Until then, there are lots of other sites on the blogosphere that may be more interested in hearing what you have to day.
Wow, all the clowns on this thread who honestly believe that Ron Paul is a rascist or a fascist are outright laughable!! Ron Paul stands for liberty and individual rights. His entire career has proven this fact. As far as the idiots that keep bringing up the “newsletters” which Ron Paul had NOTHING to do with….simply watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82CYNV0U_kg&feature=related.
Ron Paul is a follower of Austrian Economics, economists like Ludwig von Mises and F.A. Hayek. Not only did these economists predict the 1929 crash (current Austrian economists predicted our crash today), which your beloved Keynesian friends failed to do, they had to flee the Nazi Regime due to their JEWISH heritage!! Oh…but he is rascist…too funny!! Oh…and by the way the NAACP in Texas supported Ron Paul in his 2008 presidential campaign. Oh..but that can’t be because he is a rascist…once again…too funny.
If you’re going to smear Ron Paul…at least get your facts straight. Stop the lying B.S.
You can count me as one of those “clowns”, and if you’d like to step down off your high horse, I might be interested in hearing what you have to say.
Hey! What happened to my floppy shoes and fright wig?
Jane, while we would most likely disagree ourselves, thank you for bringing this to light.
Libertarians couldn’t be any angrier with this disgraceful act of bringing in Sarah Palin to what started out as a good limited government movement. Hopefully, we’ll be able to show her the door.