One of the ways the administration tried to jam its PhRMA deal/Aetna bailout on the country was forcing a series of false choices onto the debate. Those who opposed this corrupt hijacking of the democratic process were told that the reality was, you gotta have 60 votes in the Senate. And Lieberman, Landrieu, Nelson and Lincoln stood firm, so you had to give them what they wanted.
It was that or nothing. What can you do? We now hear “If only we didn’t have the filibuster” as frequently as we heard “if only we had 60 votes” when the Democrats didn’t own the war.
And now, we find out something that may surprise many (though probably not anyone who has watched politics for more than 6 months): it was all bullshit.
Part of the negotiations center on whether Reid can provide an ironclad guarantee that the Senate will not leave the House in the lurch, aides said. If the House agrees to pass the Senate bill with a companion measure — or a “cleanup” bill — to make fixes, they want to know that the Senate will indeed pass it, too.
There was some talk among Senate leadership on Thursday of putting together a letter signed by 51 Democratic senators pledging to pass a cleanup bill if the House would pass the Senate bill. But that effort fizzled when support for it didn’t materialize, insiders said.“The Senate moderates’ viewpoint is, ‘We passed our bill. We’re not going to spend three weeks on some other bill,’” said a Democratic lobbyist who represents clients pushing for reform.
So how many “moderates” are there now?
The 60 vote bar was always crap. Now that it only takes 51 votes to pass a public option (which the OpenLeft whip count says they have), they can’t clear that either. It’s all about kabuki — who gets to feign support for publicly popular legislation vs. who gets to take credit for bashing the hippies and killing it. The White House wants what it wants, and the Senate — largely insulated from the electoral consequences of the bill — is totally willing to sacrifice those in the House who are much more vulnerable in order to give it to them.
Now the apologists are peddling the “it’s this or nothing” false choice about a bill that won’t even kick in for the next four years, as if their “60 vote” myth didn’t just explode. How is it suddenly Raul Grijalva’s fault if he stands firm and won’t accept a hideous bill crafted on the imperative of getting Joe Lieberman’s vote, which isn’t necessary any more?
Meet 51: it’s the new 60.
Tell the House Progressives to stand firm: keep your word and vote “no” on the Senate bill.





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Yup, yup and yup. And why is Raul Grijalva being demonized for trying to fix the Senate bill while Bart Stupak and the Blue Dogs are actively trying to kill it? Why aren’t the White House and their surrogates in the press and blogosphere calling Bart Stupak “history’s greatest monster”?
Because they’re only trying to fk up women, not Billy Tauzin’s PhRMA deal.
I’m with you Jane – Let Raul Grijalva fix the Senate bill like it should be and sent it back to them for a vote with the caveat – Pass it or get set for the Progressives to use the “Nuclear Option”. You know the same threat that the Bushies used so effectively on the Dems to get what they wanted.
If those bozos in the Senate don’t pass it then chuck it and use the budget reconcillation process as Jon Walker proposed in his post earlier today.
That’s called winning if the Dems and blue dogs don’t recognize it.
FYI: In addition to responding to your e-mail to support the Progressive Caucus of earlier today, I tried to leave Rep. Grijalva a personal e-mail of support but his site won’t let me – My zip in Arizona restricts me from doing…
The corporatism of the Democratic Party laid bare. I wasn’t around for fights leading up to 1994…so I wonder if this kind of duplicity was this obvious back then. Or do we have blogs to thank for illuminating it?
you could always put in a different, acceptable zip code
I like this post! You bet it was!
Your title says it all.
exactly!
this important info to know and not just for healthcare. the call to end the fillibuster (especially vs powwow’s call to use it), was and is another shiny object to distract us from the real impediments to progressive, or even workable reform. the problem isn’t the 60 votes. the problem is not the filibuster.
the problem is the dems in the senate.
if they can’t muster up 51 votes for a piece of shit legislation, because they want to pass something even worse, then all i have to say is WTF are they doing?
i think i know the answer to that question. and i know i don’t like it.
It was obvious to me and some of my colleagues. That is why I never voted for Bill Clinton. Nader once and the other I think I sat out.
In my patch of burbia and suburbia, the plummeting standard of living has gotten middle aged and over aware and the blogs have been important in exposing and clarifying just how it has worked. I rarely find an educated person who doesn’t understand. Some defend it on the basis of their religious belief or imagined class privilege but they all recognize it.
The corporatism of the Democratic Party laid bare.
THis is exactly right. They’re beholden to two constituencies – corporations and the electorate – and they unabashedly side with the former. And the timing of the SCOTUS campaign finance ruling will tend to make them even less likely to side with the electorate on a PO. If they piss off their corporate masters by introducing a PO which would actually compete with private insurers, they’ll be aggressively primaried, secondaried, tertiaried, by unlimited corporate cash.
no wonder the Ds in the senate didn’t want to make the Rs filibuster. it wasn’t just laziness, they didn’t want their constituents and supporters (that would be us) to know what they were up to. so they make up bullshit reasons like needing 60 votes for not doing what they were elected to do.
i am beyond pissed off.
If the dems pass any bill that restricts access to reproductive they might as well just cash it in now, because that is the equivalent of using the nuclear option–on their own base.
Eron math maybe but still if Health Care isn’t Free to all that live in Amerika then it’s just welfare for health care corp.
Thanks Jane
they’re not spineless. just corrupt.
I get Yglesias’ bashing House Progressives(because he’s kinda DLC .. Third Way-ish), but why TPM? They’re better than that.
Yeah, as much as the “punch the hippies” crowd pisses me off, I woke up this morning feeling sorry for them. It occurred to me that their situation isn’t that different from an abusive relationship.
They love their partner Obama, and look to that partner for security and support and they just can’t imagine that their partner really means it when they knock them against the wall and cause their ears to bleed.
“He’s just upset because of his job. He really doesn’t mean it.”
“If I can just love him MORE, maybe I can change him.”
It is a sad and pathetic state they are in right now and we need to show them some sympathy. The best thing for them to do right now is to come on over to FDL and see that some of us have escaped that relationship and contrary to conventional wisdom, we are thriving and getting stronger. We are here to help anyone who wants to escape that abusive relationship. We won’t call you stupid or childish, we won’t use ALL CAPS when we respond to your comments. We love you and want to help you through this difficult time.
Face it “punch the hippies” crowd. Obama and the Dems just aren’t that into you.
Thanks Mick, we’ll make sure he gets your message.
My Letter to Boxer.
By the way, Rep. Radanovich who is retiring will no doubt be replaced by another Rebublican obstructionist. Our unemployment rate here is off the wall no less. Radanovich had forged such a permanent stake, he went unchallenged last election.
To Boxer:
Dear Senator Boxer,
I am a registered Democrat but I am strongly considering a switch to Independent due to
what has transpired in Congress during the past year.
The Health Care Reform legislation has NOTHING to do with reforming health care. The bill in the Senate is essentially a gift to the insurance and pharma industries. Please know that Americans realize what’s up and are not happy and will register their discontent at the ballot box. You may be the next congressional casualty after Coakley.
Obama and Congress have IGNORED the PEOPLE. Both have shut down the public option and the expanded medicare proposal because of rogues Lieberman, Ben Nelson and a bunch of other Corporate Blue Dog Dems including Lincoln and Landrieu. You, Senator Boxer are supposed to be cut of a different cloth but you went along with the sheep herd and did NOT stand up for those who put you in office. What a shame!
The drug reimportation bill once supported by Obama and put forth by Byron Dorgan was
demolished. The Senate and House bill force mandates on Americans to prop up and support
the INSURANCE industry and their lobbyists.
It is becoming increasingly clear that
Senators are in the main answerable to their big insurance fundraisers and lobbyists and not the PEOPLE. Unless you come out strongly for a robust public option, oppose taxing so called Cadillac insurance plans, support expanded medicare for 55 to 64 year old Americans, I cannot and will not support your re-election in 2010. Having spoken to many other friends who voted for you term after term they feel the same way as I do. It would be wise for the President and members of Congress to glean the real message sent by Mass. voters. They were fed up with big talk, and no do–with back room deals struck with Insurance companies–lack of transparency and accountability.. phony promises about the public option and easy sellouts. We are all waiting for the C-span coverage of the back room dealings.. or back stabbings. Sincerely..
obamarahma will see to it, through backroom deals, that the dims never have enough votes to make a better Senate bill. Grijalva is being attacked because he is still thinking that candidate obama is trying to escape the confines of corporatist president obamarahma. obama wants this Senate bill because he can’t simply decree that the WH just hand the treasury over to the corporations; they have to have an camouflaged way to do it. Grijalva is trying to prevent a massive handover of monies to the big corps so he is standing in the way. THIS obstructionism requires personal attack, the repugs and bluedogs, on the other hand, are simply trying to get the “people’s business” done.
It’s not just them. It’s everywhere:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-lux/clear-path-vs-clear-meltd_b_431389.html
The Selling of “Free Trade”: NAFTA, Washington, and the Subversion of American Democracy
rahmbama is a one-term presidency. It’s actions ensure that daily. Use that fact to full advantage.
The talking points are being trumpeted far and wide, in this case, citing HCAN as well as the “universally respected” University of Chicago school of Economics:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/01/democrats-mull-plan-c-for-health-care-experts-say-get-real.php
Yeah I always recoil from the word “spineless.” It’s like my dog Katie going limp and doing her “passive resistance” thing when I try to put her in the car (which she hates). Then I start laughing and I can’t pick her up.
She’s not being “spineless.” It’s willful and deliberate and achieves her desired objective — at least until I stop laughing.
We need more and better monsters.
this is probably a really good time to take stock: who is (and who is not) going after grijalva but not stupak.
it’s one thing to support the senate bill (which i do not), but it’s another to ignore stupak while going after grijalva.
I have frequently gotten around this problem at other sites by checking to see which zips are within the Congress-critter’s district and attaching one of those to my “address.”
The new math:
60 = 51
41 > 59
Dems probably need a week to recover from Mass and decide what to do going forward about health care. At the moment, the house doesn’t seem inclined to pass the senate bill and the senate doesn’t seem inclined to take up health care again period this year. Kinda looks like the result is going to be nothing- for a year’s bloody battlotaes and total loss of political capital. Sad.
Beautiful!
Look up Grijalva’s address on his site and use that zip code. Put in the body of the email that you did this to get the message to him. It is a work-around until all of the house and senate change the parameters on their sites.
LOL. i thought katie was smart.
…..
i have a friend who thinks her dog is a little slow (and probably loves him all the more because of it). but i’m skeptical because the stories of over the top stupidity always seem to end up with S. (the dog) getting just what he wants.
Don’t forget the months they wasted pretending to chase Olympia Snowe around.
It’s always been about getting close, but not getting quite close enough. They’ve been resisting real health care reform from the beginning, not fighting for it.
I signed the petition the moment I saw it yesterday. Now I’m going over to ActBlue to show support for Raul Grijalva by making a contribution.
Jane, is this a result of Rahm et al. beginning an “offensive” and encouraging Veal Pen members and other strays to beat-up-on-hippies?
Is there a “talking-points-sameness” in all these sudden postings that suggests they’re motivated by e-mails or phone calls from the WH?
I find it hard to believe that such come-to-Jesus “wisdom” is coincidental.
PS – it appears that Josh named his blog correctly.
Everyone should read Walter Karp’s “Indispensable Enemies”. It’s a poltical history of the US since about 1870 detailing the ways that the two parties cooperate with one another at the expense of their own supporters and activists.
The Democratic power structure didn’t want single payer or even the public option, so they let the Republicans block them. Everyone here agrees about this, probably, but Karp shows how this kind of thing has been done systematically for a century and a half.
Well if HCAN’s being cited, we can expect to see Jason drop by with his list of talking points at any moment.
please excuse the repeat, but i’m trying to help spread the word from powwow re the filibuster:
if anyone can show that powwow is wrong, i’d sure like to know about it. (more info and further links at the link above)
That’s really bad news. I thought we only had this situation since Reagan.
I have been watching politics starting back in 1960. I think that things started to change in 1994 and have simply continued off the cliff so that now you have 100 different kings, with only the rethuglicians marching in lockstep-only becasse they are Authoritarians. Which is why nothing ever gets done. All anyone has to do is shout “Filibuster” and every thing gets shut down. Used to be, when the majority leader had balls, that when the call for a “filibuster” came, they had to follow thru. Talk until they passed out or all others simply cried “Enough” and voted him down. Sadly, that no longer happens. Possibly because it makes senators have to actually do something. Which is also why we can not get a budget passed any more. All they do is put everything together in one lump and pass it in Jan. Sign me totally disgusted with all of them. Sadly, the sheeple will continue to vote in idiots either because they bring in earmarks or because the sheeple are unable to follow exactly what is going on and the incumbent gets to be first on the ballot-at least in the states I have lived and voted in.
The only way to really get rid of the “pros from dover” is to start with elections at the local level, like school boards, where about 2% of the people vote. Even then on down ballot positions we get people running-and who get elected depending on their party or place on the ballot-who not only know nothing about the job they are running for but never even campaign-one fellow here got 42% of the vote in 08 even tho no one knew who he was. He never even listed a phone number, never campaigned, never got an endorsement, had no idea what the job entailed, a real live know-nothing, yet he almost won because the sheeple simply voted for him because his name sounded familiar-a guess because no one has any idea. The sheeple can be and will be manipulated. Once their minds are made up they will not listen to the truth.
Which is what happened with HCR. The dems allowed the repigs the ability to set in every sheeples mind what they wanted, because the repigs jumped out first, because they repeated the same meme endlessly and because the dems were no where to be seen. So the rethugs won the days news cycle, day after day after day. And the sheeple believed the lies because not a single damn dem, from the prez on down, did any frickin thing.
Does Obama really have any idea what he is doing? Have been reading lately that many people wondered at his ability to act forcefully. Sure gives a good speech, but when a decision has to be made, what does he do? Dither like he did on A’stan? A prez can be forceful and make the wrong decision or he can dither and make no decision. The question is, after 1 year. What has Obama done? What does the public think about him? Is he in the Carter mold or the Truman mold?
Thank you for this reference. I’m looking forward to reading it.
whistling in the dark?
If they can fix it later with less than 60, why and how they can not fix it now?
Are they being straight with us?
And that’s why we demanded they force an actual filibuster:
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/13/if-harry-reid-allows-the-silent-filibuster-its-all-on-him/
It was all just so much bullshit.
If you haven’t read Glenn Greenwald’s piece on Cass Sunstein and “cognitive infiltration,” it’s a must:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/15/sunstein/index.html
Some of it is just parroting of DC pundit groupthink, but it all starts somewhere and the assault that began yesterday was not a coincidence. They’re pulling out all the stops.
That’s disturbing. I suppose the only hope is for a third party … and once that party is taken over by the corporations we’ll need a fourth party … and so on. I can’t see an end in sight to any of this. Let’s say we’re successful at cleaning up the Dem party–how long will that last? What happens after that? Democracy is certainly hard work.
and they lied about — created bogus polling re single payer and health care reform. sold a bullshit neoliberal policy as progressive to party activists while bad mouthing single payer policy activists and experts to the point where even elizabeth warren’s coauthor’s weren’t taken seriously.
i really hate the dem leadership. didn’t like them much a couple of years ago, but i’ve entered the rage stage now. tens of thousands of american deaths every year and it’s more important to protect their industry supporters. these are acts of deceit, hubris and evil (i don’t even like to use the word, but i don’t know another that fits) on the level of tobacco industry apologists.
This is all such convoluted bs that my head hurts just reading this stuff.
It’s almost like you want to take a shower after every disclosure of how fake most everything in Washington is, and to get to any semblance of the truth, you better have brushed up on your 12 dimensional chess game.
I think Powwow is right, too. Rather than end it, turn it back into what it was supposed to be by modifying it procedurally.
amen.
Very true Jane -
Indeed the media is trying to ignore the base staying home to protest in Mass the abortion clause and the ins co give away. The Washington Post is pushing the Washington Post-Kaiser-Harvard Massachusetts special election poll in an article that focuses only on those that voted.
The poll data shows http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/WaPoKaiserHarvard_MassPoll_Jan22.pdf that of the non-voters 43% had voted in Nov 08, and the split between Obama and McCain was 79%/21%. About 900,000 of the Democratic base stayed home – so why not an article about how the remaining Nov 08 voters voted – or actually did not vote – in 2010?
That is a very good point.
Nice to see you around. At this point I don’t think I even try to understand – I just sit back and laugh at the spin.
that’s what i used to think, but powwow is saying that the rules don’t even need to be modified. the rules, as they are, just need to be used by the senate leadership.
this news to me (very recently too), which is why i’m doing the “repeat the message” thing in the hopes of getting powwow’s analysis a hearing. (i mean, when has powwow been wrong about senate procedure? i can’t think of one example).
i’ll get you some good links and post them here…. back in minute.
The good guys didn’t always lose, I should add. If there was enough pressure from the grass roots, including third parties and non-party organizations, sometimes the party machinery gave in. But the party machines have always been self-serving, cautious, and treacherous.
Even FDR needed outside pressure. He strated out in 1932 with a very cautious program, but the country was blowing up and in 1934 he put through the “Second New Deal” which is the one we remember. Then in 1937-8 he tried to balance the budget in response pressure from regular Democrats, leading to a recession.
Yes, this occurred to me a while back…and I think I even posted last week or the week before that I hoped Coakley would lose so that it would expose the myth of 60…. which we never even had anyway… saying we had 60 Dems was also a myth.
They just hid behind it, as I also pointed out earlier, to water down the bill for corporate interests.
Remember all the concessions made to get Olympia Snow… to make the magical 60…. then the complete knock out the barely recognizable public option for Lieberman… all to get the mythical 60.
If Emanuel and Obama had started out in the fspring doing as much behind the scene shenanigans and manipulation FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS as they did for the corporations we would have a bill worth fighting for.
Now, I don’t even care if the whole thing craters.
I think we can put pressure on the Senate and House to pass at least the weak insurance company reforms… and perhaps the Medicaid expansion…
and do away with the rest of the bullshit that was written by the insurance companies anyway.
To me that is the one talking point not getting enough exposure… this is the bill the insurance companies wrote!!
And then point out the Baucus staff members … plural… who used to work for Well point… and the former Baucus staff who now work for insurance companies who helped craft this bill.
Yikes! Major Veal Pennage!
Do you all think Rahm is setting us up as the “Commies of the 20s and 30s? The enemy that unites the Dems and GOPers?
Thanks for that; it’s nice to be around.
I’ve been busy taking an unexpected tour through our wonderful health care system, and you know what? Damned if Dubya wasn’t correct — the emergency room is universal coverage!
You can always get the DC Fax number of Grijalva and fax. I did this with Boxer as she refuses to have a local office Fax number in various cities of CA. Odd isn’t it?
Is it just coincidence that the Supreme Court ruling about corporations and free speech happened AFTER the “bamboozle” backfired in Massachusetts?
Or that big Tobacco was schmoozing in secret with DOJ to scuttle a RICO charge from going to SCOTUS—-on the Friday just BEFORE the Massacre in Massachusetts( that following Tuesday)?
This 60 votes thing…an ace in the back pocket to hedge bets -and to keep milking the corporate cash cows while simultaneously shearing the sheeple.
I thought you meant force them to do it on the floor, all night, etc. I thought the rules that did that had been amended.
powwow links on REAL filibuster procedure available to the senate NOW:
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/22431
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/18788#comment-107636
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/01/21/everyone-is-dennis-kucinich-now/#comment-83404
here again is powwow:
Even if you have side bar or whatever reconciliation, if Obama is true to the pact he made with pharma and insurance, Tauzin, et al, nothing will ever happen to advance the public option or expanded medicare. That is unless, the so called Progressives in the House, go into open rebellion and have some
defiant public news conferences before taking ACTION.
I’m actually working on one. It reflects the same turnout as the VA governor’s race vs. the last one too if I’m not mistaken.
Of course, we can dismiss that because Creigh Deeds was also a terrible candidate. Vic Snyder too. Steve Driehouse. And Baron Hill.
In fact, everyone’s a terrible candidate except the ones who crafted this bill who remain terribly popular.
/s
SCOTUS has now pretty much just stepped on the air hose with five pairs of shoes.
All the tactical adjusments re: filibusters, etc. mean nothing when you have a bunch of sellouts in both Houses of Congress.
me too. but powwow has been on it and come to a different conclusion.
Hope you are okay now. How were your travels through the loving arms of health care?
Jane,
I suggest that you consider supporting the idea being floated around the House. Howard Dean has been saying for months that if they can’t get real reform – public option, Medicare buy-in – Democrats should scrap all the mandates and subsidies and focus on passing stronger insurance regulations and on incentivizing states to expand coverage.
NB: Richard Kirsch, HCAN director, opposes it, so it can’t be all wrong!
See discussion of the plan and Kirsch’s statement opposing it in Democrats Mull Plan C For Health Care; Experts Say Get Real (Jan 22, 2010) at TMP.
With all due respect for the “experts,” I’m just not that impressed with their argument that it isn’t a good idea because it isn’t comprehesive reform.
I’d rather have something that won’t be comprehensive than something like the Senate bill, which isn’t reform at all, would enrich the bad actors who have created the problems, and could, in fact, make matters worse.
Please consider supporthing this idea. If you know Jim Dean at DFA, I think he can confirm that Howard has spoken favorably of the idea of a piecemeal approach as a backup if Dems faied on a public option and/or Medicare buy-in.
If I understand correctly, reconciliation can only be used for funding, so, if social security eligibility calls for someone to have worked and paid in for 40 quarters (10 years). Fund Medicare to cover anyone eligible for social security (with a nominal buy-in), starting at age 50, and kill the rest of the bill. This should pick up millions of citizens; maybe not 31 million, but millions.
Does this make any sense?
thanks, JohnEmerson. i’ve really appreciated your posts on populism over at OL. and also your insight into what has worked in the past:
Hi Jane. Let me say upfront that I think you are a great American hero. Seriously. And I have come to read and participate on this blog to the practical exclusion of all others. Because I think it’s the best around. (I also like Glenn, when I need authoritiative, well reasoned, and fully documented think pieces. The lawyer in me really appreciates the high professional quality of his work.)
However, I would like to know what you have to say about this. A couple days ago, I was censored and put on a watchlist by the Mod for referring to the Declaration of Independence and the argument that when a system becomes totally unresponsive to the will of the People, then options outside that rigged system, including revolution, should be open to reasoned discussion. I was not inciting or advocating immediate response to that option, but only trying to open up a rasonable and responsible philosophical discussion about the moral and historical correctness and pragmatic considerations relating to those options. The Mod made me feel like a criminal for it.
Following the Citizens United opinion, 20-30% (rough estimate) of the comments following the initial posts specifically used the word “revolution,” with nary a peep from the Mod. But comments I made on those and subsequent posts all went up with an ‘”Awaiting Moderator Approval” proviso, even if they were purely milquetoast in nature. So I’m confused, and would appreciate some clarification from you.
Not about my specific situation (I’m a big boy), but rather about your current policy stance on comments of this nature. I fully understand your strong prefernce for working within the system. And I know where the line of legality is for fomenting as opposed to discussing, and think for the sake of self-preservation we all need to stay on the safe side of that line. But at times like this, when we are seeing SO clearly how thoroughly the system is perpetually rigged against our interests, don’t you agree that responsible discussion of extra-legal options has become as legitimate for Firepups as it was for the Founding Fathers?
I think what we learned from the MA outcome, is that we have power at the ballot box, and now suddenly the word is getting out that any one of these Congressional sellouts can lose their seat through PEOPLE voting power. Even with the abominable Supreme court ruling, voters will be even more motivated to oust the characters who are in bed with the insurance and other corporate lobbyists.
exactly. the whitehouse has to be forced to publicly own the senate bill, which of course they do. joe lieberman is a prick,and a horrible person and a bad leader, so are nelson, baucus and snowe. but i doubt ANY of them would have pushed it this far. in fact, all them them had to be bought off individually with god only knows what backroom promises from- the white house. its rahm and axlerods political scheming and larry summers style policy. if the white house quit pushing to get the senate bill passed, the rest would have dropped it like yesterday, as some are now trying to.
Thank you for answering my prayers by writing this up. The WH is showing zero interest on “reconciliation” or piece by piece according to that article in Politico you referenced. Like you said about your cat, what the cat is not doing is also doing something!
WOW! Thanks for this.
However I think they will not have as good luck with the blogs as they have had in Newspaper,TV and radio media plants.
As long as we can hold onto free speech for people, net neutrality and have lots of folks experienced in rapid research (as in FDL) and response I think they can be at least partially neutralized.
This is like when the mark has been played in a con. Doh!
So now what?
I’m all for getting the Bolsheviks together and implementing the Czar Nicholas treatment. Power only listens to power.
I don’t have a problem with that at all. In fact I think anything that scraps the mandate is an excellent suggestion.
Rule #1: You don’t fix something by rewarding the people who FUCKED THINGS UP IN THE FIRST PLACE. Because it just empowers them to game the political system by giving them the money to do it with.
They needed 60 when they were selling out, now they need 51 to finish the job?
Sickening.
Arrrrgh! The Democratic side of the Senate, at least, has been full of shit for some time now. Recently someone mentioned how Democrats are always losing on what seems to be popular legislation, by one vote. I noticed a couple years ago that it seemed like one of my senators, Levin or Stabenow, would regularly come down on the wrong side of a vote. I’m starting to think someone games it all out. For Republicans to cater to corporate interests they simply get to act like what they are. Democrats have to pretend to be populists on economic matters, but still deliver legislation that hurts the regular guy. Consequently, they have to play the role of ineffectual buffoons. They’re not all bad, but the Senate is really stinking.
the policy part does. expansion of medicare (like to everyone 50 and above. or to children 0-18. or some other age group of your choice), especially if medicare could be fix/improved (drug costs, donut hole, etc) would be imo a wonderful intermediate step policy wise. (unlike an optional medicare buy in, which i think is bad policy because we don’t have the regulatory environment to support it).
Thanks, I appreciate that.
A lot of FDLers have also been helpful with all kinds of work-around suggestions – Thanks All – but I’d rather not run the risk of possibly clogging up his site. Like many other legislators Mr. Grijalva put limits on his e-mail responses for a reason and I’ll respect that.
As for the rethuglicants with those kinds of limits – not so much. I’ll use the tendered work around suggestions to deliver my progressive comments just to fuck with them like they are doing with the rest of us Americans…
Sadly, Jim Clyburn of the Congressional Black Caucus was part of the sheep herd, and was supporting all the crap in the Senate bill. If this is what the CBC has come to, there’s not much hope for any REFORM.
thanks for the reminder to write, before i leave the thread, ……
thanks jane for a great post. when i read the bit about how the senate magically no longer had 51 votes just as soon as 51 was the number needed, steam came out of my ears. yikes.
But the the regulatory structure could be created in much less time than 2014. That timeline is crazy.
Exactly! No mandate. No rewards to the bad actors in the insurance industry. I’m just thinking about what FDL can support going forward. The bullshit effort to get House Dems to vote for the Senate Dems’ bad joke has to be opposed by advancing an alternative proposal.
I can’t find what I was reading last year during the FISA stuff but IIRC, there is a provision within the Senate Rules that allows the Majority Leader, at his discretion, to force folks into a traditional filibuster where they have to keep talking and everything we came to know and love from Mr. Smith…
Of course, that would require Harry Reid to actually grow a pair.
In our part of Southern Illinois one runs for the school board so that if elected one can hire every family member and extended relative still living. Still living is unnecessary if one can provide a third-party address where the checks can be sent.
I don’t think Clyburn is speaking for the CBC, he is speaking for the leadership.
I find it very disturbing that we are not hearing from House Progressives
in a loud, outspoken tone, unless they are buying into the media and White House spin on the MA election outcome. If Americans want the HOPE, CHANGE implementation, one would think that some courageous Reps would come out of the mousy closet and make their voices heard. So let Obamarhama attack them
as hippies or whatever.. Let them take that risk and make a statement.. it might go a long way to keep them employed. Obviously, they must realize that an appearance with Obama on their own campaign/re-election trail is a kiss of death. That reality should be enough for them to BREAK with the White House
and blaze a trail of independence.
The sham 2009 HCR tailored to AHIP/PhARMA/Obama WH/D Party desires needs to die.
Which then leads to bogus “if this does not pass HCR will not come again for years” BS line.
Who says and why not? Because AHIP and PhARMA say so?
Or D Party says so?
Why not do this over again in 2010? Or again in 2011 or 2012? This 2009 HCR sham is not intended to kick in fully until 2013 or 2014 as it is.
Pentagon and CIA budgets get tweaked yearly or in case of Iraq/AfPak more than yearly. Don’t see anyone saying it can’t be done for Pentagon/CIA do you?
Barack Obama deserves to be hit hard for his line of BS regarding this 2009 HCR kabuki. As well as Pelosi and Reid. It has become way too corrupted and these so called D party leaders need to be made to suffer and pay a price.
Really tired of Barack Obama and D party trying to blame the R party for HCR 2009 debacle.The D Party has been running out this “blame the R’s” excuse since 2002. It is way past getting old. Truth of it is this D party is slacker infested. D party leadership in Congress has demonstrated over and over is all about caving in or trying to convert principles to sellouts.
Good on Jane Hamsher for saying as much.
Time for Nancy Pelosi to step down and out. Time way past for Harry Reid to step down and out. Time for the “leadership” teams who run with these two weather vane types to get weeded out as well.
Well, you might want to take a look at this:
US: Democrats agree on commission to cut Social Security, Medicare …Jan 22, 2010 … US: Democrats agree on commission to cut Social Security, Medicare … lower the deficit, not tax increases on the wealthy or big business, …
http://www.whatreallyhappened.org/…/us-democrats-agree-commission-cut-social-security-medicare – 19 hours ago
You can bet he’d like to, and you know most of the media would play (is playing) along. With the way most Americans feel, I’d hope that would come across like Rahm, et al are living in an alternate universe… which may be true.
Hey jimbo – Obviously your also a real fan of Sister Sarah – Wanting to be a quitter and all that when the going gets rough.
Are you sure you’re not from the RNC or maybe the Tea Baggers? Sounds a bit like you are. Just my opinion, I could be wrong – maybe…
it’s not the structure i’m worried about. it’s the anti-regulation ideology and “let’s let the lobbyists write it, if we have to have some” process (both parties). that takes longer to fix.
All the mousy silence among Reps. goes along with the secrecy backdrop of the
health insurance reform proceedings from day one. Nothing has been open, transparent and honest. MA voters were also screaming about this in their election. Facebook has a Let the Cameras In page that is growing fans by leaps and bounds though some of them are Rethuglicans.
yeah thats kind of a another disturbing feature of whats happening. you can say the same for labor. the black caucus and labor and other traditional progressive blocks are so deeply invested in playing by the rules, and “beating them at their own game” that they are deeply compromised now that the whole game has been co opted by global money and wal st. we have have a very dangerous political problem similar to the danger that a very wealthy semi-legitimate mafia posed in the 50′s and early 60′s., except now the racketeers are harvard graduates who work on wal st..and its all legal. if we dont stop the skid we will lose our democracy completely
Reid will step down when he loses re-election resoundingly.
I guess I’m still on the Terrorist Watch List?
Could somebody tell me what is objectionable about Comment #72, and why it is “Awaiting Moderator Approval?”
Should I just link to the Declaration of Independence, and go somewhere else?
That’s all the more reason to openly challenge its value. They want to shrink it to save money and we can enlarge it to save money. If we say nothing, then, they must be right.
The House is getting the work done while The Senate dithers along bullshitting the entire country. I have no idea what can be done, but I know accepting their corporate-version of HCR is not a good idea. The House needs to keep kicking the ball in their court, because its failure is dependent on them… and not The House. That much is obvious.
We need to start taking polling, among democrats, which body of government are you happier with The House or The Senate? and see how fcking low the numbers for the senate are.
I agree. Clyburn is third in the leadership, no? House Majority Whip. He’s speaking for the leadership, though I’m not seeing so much support for the Senate’s bad joke from the House leadership.
rach777, can you provide a link that shows Clyburn supporting all the crap in the Senate bill?
Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves here.
While the idea of having a “Deficit Reduction Commission” is most likely being driven by those like Pete Peterson who want to eviscerate Social Security, it is not quite yet a given that all the Democrats are in agreement that this will happen.
And fortunately, we do have folks like Jane available to call BS on their games, just as she has done on HCR.
(It will help if we keep Harold Ford out of the Senate however)
There’s a place for people to add comments on the petition:
http://action.firedoglake.com/page/s/signhprog?source=fdlsidebar
That union buyout on the Cadillac plan tax was despicable. It added to reasons why Coakley was defeated. Unions are corporations clearly, and union democracy advocates are starting to feel their oats.
Ding ding ding ding!!
If nothing else has come to light in this healthcare debacle, that certainly is ringing loud and clear.
I must disagree. they are beholden to the corporations They are need the electorate to vote. The result is duplicity & lies,
That’s what Jon Walker has been doing:
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/01/21/fixing-health-reform-through-the-reconciliation-sidecar-13-improvements-6-ways-to-save-money-4-important-benefits/
I’m just thinking they will do less harm with an existing program than building something new without a footprint.
be careful though. if the problem is that previously worthy institutions like the black caucus and labor, have bought into the corrupt rules of the game, the solution to the problem is not less labor, any more than it would be less black people.
This was a link to the statement in late December after Christmas eve vote, where Clyburn lets go of the need for a public option.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/27/ftn/main6027170.shtml?source=related_story
Has nothing to do with black composite of CBC except that I had previously associated CBC with endorsing progressive legislation.. same for that very association with unions. But institutions are reflections of the
times and social environments.. need I say more.
Well, I like long term strategy.
Apparently, they do,too.
Thanks for the link to the whip count Jane but that post is almost 4 months old.
That is why it’s important for Spkr Pelosi and the House liberals to pass their own bills(s) of fixes and just send them on to the Senate with the message that after the Senate passes the fixes the House will pass the underlying bill and fixes together.
If it gets past the Blue Dogs, send it on to the Senate. If not it’s clear to the American people who is killing health care reform.
If it gets past Harry Reid and the Democratic leadership let the Senators vote. If not the American people know who is responsible for killing health care reform.
If the Senators pass the fixes send them back to the House, the House passes the fixed bill, sends it to Obama and the President signs it.
Yeah! America finally has a reasonably sane health care policy.
If not, then we know the identity of the (at least) ten Democratic Senators that are willing to kill health care reform.
Jane is right 60 always was kabuki and now 51 is the new 60.
Personally, I believe that not only are there not 51 votes in the Senate to pass a reasonably “fixed” bill, reasonably being something along the lines of what was already agreed with labor, etc before the Ma blowup, I don’t even believe there are 41, yes forty one, Democratic votes in the US Senate to kill off, say, a bill creating a commission that has the power to force Congress to accept or reject their recommendations on “fixing” Social Security with a simple majority vote. (Cut and paste that into your list of off the wall internet predictions, after you think of the 8 layers of irony there.)
The best move Movement Conservatives made was to infiltrate the Democratic Party through the DLC. And that prescient move is about to deliver it biggest returns to date.
…
we have to somehow find a way to separate politics from money. politics should not be the ticket to fabulous wealth and sex drugs and rock n roll.
ive noticed that both our politics and our rock n roll really really suck these days.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/27/ftn/main6027170.shtml?source=related_story
This goes back to Clyburn’s Face the Nation appearance following the Christmas eve vote on HCR.
All that’s happening now is triage being performed on the fetid, greed bloated corpse of capitalism.
well worth reading: Joseph Stiglitz Testimony to the House Committee on Financial Services:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/23031160/Stiglitz-Testimony
Ultimately nationalizing some Banks and health care is the only way to save the American middle class and democracy.
You have it right. The whole system is rotten and corrupt with corporate lobbyists owning these elected officials, not the PEOPLE who voted them in, which makes me very worrisome about any real change or reform being effected in health care and financial realms.
Jon wrote yesterday that “the Senate Democrats are too collectively ego-driven to support a reconciliation sidecar” and he moved on to propose a “reconciliation only” appraoch.
See The “Reconciliation Only” Option: Just Give Medicaid to Those Who Can’t Afford Insurance
Jon wrote that it would require a short bill, no more than 30 pages.
I hope I’m not understanding something incorrectly.
As I understand it, what’s not in what Jon wrote about in the “reconciliation only” approach, but is in the Plan C approach floating around the House, i.e. the piecemeal approach, is all the bits of strict insurance regulation.
Hah! If the founding fathers had discussed their plans in plain sight and within hearing range of the Kings men they would have been simply a footnote in the history of what would be these English colonies.
We need to keep reminding ourselves to avoid enabling that strategy. We know we are not Stalinists but the Tea bag people already think so and I agree the media frequently skims right up to that place.
Did you hear Matthews screed toward Grayson yesterday? Doing just that.
I’m not a mod, jmho.
No protected speech over the tubes.
Mods have an incredibly difficult and thankless job. Do you remember valleygirl?
Maybe someone emailed them complaints about you. A lot of us have spent time in the penalty box. It goes away after awhile. They’re still letting you comment, that’s the important thing.
Another option is to ask a mod to leave you a note at the bottom of this thread after it’s dead. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t.
Agreed.
Which is why it’s pretty much way too premature to start in by saying the Dems have already conceded the point that SS and Medicare/Medicaid are being cut.
The way Matthews treated Dean was even worse. If Dean didn’t scream, I wanted to.
Yeah, and it seems that calling for revolution in the middle of blog posts and comment threads is a good way to encourage visits from the very people you want to avoid receiving visits from
It’s gone from “My Pet Goat”….to….”My Pet Scapegoats”.
Looks like some of the “sheeple” are getting their “goat”. *G*
Agreed. Most still hold out hope for the Democrats to do the right thing by the middle class if not the poor – but the middle class slowly and now rapidly is becoming the working poor. The exurbs and suburbs have seen explosion in poverty. The Economist magazine last week listed which economic sectors in major world economies are still over leveraged. When you look at the breakdown for the USA it is frightening plain. We are in for a sh@#t storm. Kabuki similar to that surrounding HCR will be applied to all major legislation. The politicians in DC are out to fleece us out of our entitlements in order to protect their own ilk and their corporate sponsors. The SCOTUS ruling will only push this along faster. I suspect they know a double dip recession is just around the corner.
Watch Matthews? He’s one of the reasons I dropped TV. I even click his videos with a wince. Hopefully Grayson was able to deliver a few good shots. You’re right though. It seems that there are some progressives who do a very good job in front of the camera, when they can get there. I don’t have an instance in mind, but is it the fake ones who come across badly?
The only explanation I have for my continuing to watch him is: i am an idiot. (sigh)
Ugh. You got that right.
Mathews is in love with the whole process. he’s admittedly in love with politicians. he’d rather spend time chatting with tom delay than reading up on any particular policy issue.
Here is an excerpt from the article:
US: Democrats agree on commission to cut Social Security, Medicare
By Patrick Martin
21 January 2010
Obama administration officials and Democratic congressional leaders reached agreement Tuesday on the establishment of a bipartisan commission that would put recommendations for drastic budget cuts to a vote in Congress before the end of 2010. The commission would have unprecedented legal authority to propose changes in both the tax code and major entitlement programs like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, with Congress required to hold an up-or-down vote on its recommendations.
The exact method for establishing the commission depends on congressional action. The Senate and House could vote to establish the commission, as an amendment for legislation to raise the national debt ceiling to $13 trillion.
Press accounts suggested this was unlikely, given divisions over policy between Republicans and Democrats, as well as within both parties. If Congress fails to act, Obama would issue an executive order to create the commission, although this would leave its decisions with less legal force.
Note: The Tuesaday referred to was the same day of the Massachusetts election
If you really want to look here is a link
Actually Grayson did not do so well but still Matthews made an ass of himself without help.
I love it when you talk dirty. Course I love you anyway.
no, its entertainment. “harball” is to washington what “entertainment tonight” is to hollywood . its no suprise to me that bill-o started out on entertainment tonight
If I remember correctly, it was you who showed up at a thread yesterday calling us lingerers “masochists!” ;-)
I read the article. And yes, knowing that the folks like Peterson are pushing this makes it highly suspect.
But you brought it in and presented it as if it were already done.
It is not a done deal yet.
The commission is not yet established. It’s operating rules have not yet been established. Congress has not yet had their asses handed to them for abdicating their own responsibilities.
Be wary. But don’t cry wolf ahead of time.
Only to be reborn in some crucial government job which will be provided by Obama. We’ll never get rid of him just like we couldn’t get rid of Daschle.
LOL Bingo!
@#137
No, Dakine, with all due respect I did not infer it was a done deal.
I don’t recall valley girl, and I know free speech rights don’t apply in a private forum.
But, I come here for lively and uninhibited interaction with other smart people, and I always thought everything was fair game unless it crossed the legal line into openly fomenting violence.
When the system is hopelessly rigged, aren’t we just engaging in mental masturbation if we limit discussion only to options that can’t be successful?
Say that to my face and this 68 year old would convince you pretty quickly how wrong you are. [Edited by Moderator. Do not use personal insults]. I’ve been listening to all the talk for a long time, nothing is being done. Massachutts was something being done, maybe the wrong thing, but it is the two by four that will promote some change. If what has been done and is being done is the best rahmbama can do then they deserve to go. Otherwise we are just another bunch of authoritarian republicans.
I stand corrected.
It appears that the defeat in MA is going to pit Obama’s Political faction (Axelrod) against his Policy one (Rahm).
With politicians and the government it’s usually best to assume the worst. If you do you’ll spare yourself being surprised or disappointed the better part of the time.
You may not have been around here long enough to know a lot of folks but I do recall Christy Hardin Smith talking about having received visits and phone calls from folks like the SEcret Service because of comments by folks like you and me on FDL.
Talk of revolution, no matter how innocuous it may be in your eyes and mind, tend to get the attention of folks who don’t smile and see the humor. As a lawyer, I would think you would understand that.
What you really have to do is reduce economic inequality in American society as a whole. Allowing a tiny minority of the population to own most of the wealth is fundamentally inconsistent with anything resembling real democracy. It’s not a coincidence that the American political system worked a great deal better when the top tax rate was around 90%.
Since the Senate all ready passed the health care reform legislation can they start the reconcilation process now?
@#143
Thank you…and you look taller,too. *G*
When our leaders define the “free market” as privatizing the fat cats profits and socilaizing their losses there is nothing left to lose. Is there?
Just to be clear–I did not and am not CALLING for revolution, only for a reasoned and responsible and legal discussion about whether and when it might become the thing to do. I don’t know even for myself where I stand on the issue, I just think we are pretty much where the Framers were when they wrote the Declaration of Independence, so I think a discussion might be in order.
And I’m quite sure we are all one SOMEONE’s list already, just for being here.
Fuck the bill. Kill the bill.
Shorter: Mr. preznint, you don’t get a “win”, big or otherwise, by shitting on the people who elected you.
Wasn’t that made plain enough three days ago?
Talk about a lawyer parsing words!
If you haven’t yet had the chance, Stiglitz’s Testimony to the HCFS is
a must read simply because our gov. cannot now say that somehow they didn’t know, – that nobody knew….
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/23031160/Stiglitz-Testimony
Just commented @Juan Cole’s Informed Comment on his headline:
“Obama admits US underestimated Israeli-Palestinian deadlock“
Call me cynical, but I had to laugh when Obama came out all populist against the banks immediately after Massachusetts. I expect that’ll last until… how long is the publics memory?
Howard Dean has not favored piecemeal – but has rejected the Senate Bill. Post some comments I wrote – and I am usually late to any idea – about a review of EU with universal that uses ins.co. policies always having extremely strong regulation that included some form of price setting for basic services, Dean went on TV to say it was better than a public option as designed by the Senate or House. Indeed if single payer is gone, it is an easy good answer.
I got on three lists just for hanging out with some vegans and Quakers.
btw if you check your tracker log you know it is the FBI if the browser is Netscape 3
Not trying to parse, just trying to communicate clearly. There is a legal line, and I am careful to stay on the right side of it.
Because of the enhanced ability of the public to see the extent to which all three branches their government lie prostrate before the monied interests these depend on, the motivation is stronger among the public to agitate for change. It must be realized by the public however that their very liberties and economic well being is at stake. And they must realize also the all encompassing power of who they are up against.
Strategies to effectuate change have to begin that do not depend exclusively on governmental action and goodwill, government in this case is part of the problem. Remedies must be sought that will reduce the power and influence of the driving force that corrupts government. Strategies by the public must be carried out that limit the influence of banks, drug makers and insurers. We need to take stock of where we are in relation to the corporations that are engulfing the country and find ways to effectively dcrease their power.
Defunding of big banks, boycotting of firms that engage in lobbying, placing limits on corporations through state ballot initiatives, and the like have to begin. Corporations need to see that their actions are being met with a determined opposition by the public.
People need to wake up to the fact that they have to rely on themselves to reign in corporations because no one else in government will.
I remember when the President ran on transparency and the need for the free and full exchange of ideas…..
that broadband accesssibilty should be available to all.
I read all this and I just wonder “why?” The options all of which look pretty terrible. One, the democrats are just out of “touch” and have this mentality that they need to govern from the center, except they seem to think the center is where the left and right is equally pissed off. Two, they are just plain terrible at whipping votes or fighting for anything that matters. Three, they are horribly corrupt and just hopping on the corporate gravy train. Four, they are afraid of failure so they take no bold action that could also fail boldly.
Honestly given the size of the caucus it looks like there is a combination of all four. I know I’m not the only one that seriously worries about what this country will look like in ten years, regardless of the party in power. Huge unemployment and an unresponsive government is a recipe for disaster (or revolution). It always amazes me that oligarchs seem to want to grab for more and more even though at some point they overreach.
As Colbert stated the other evening Brown represents the “new 41 super minority” whoa
But in fact, you are parsing words. You are using semantics to make a point that is artificial in the NSVHO of this writer.
vg was probably before your time. She was a mod for awhile and posted about how much it sucked. Some think the mods are too tough. Others think they aren’t tough enough.
Did your 141 also need moderation? If so, it sounds as though they have to manually spring your comments, because the software is catching all of them.
Edgy and intelligent is good, especially if it’s about an issue/event/public figure. If it’s attacking another commenter, that may be viewed different.
If the mods feel as though you’re going to argue with them, they may be more inclined to just let you figure it out. You mentioned you used to comment under a different screen name. They may feel as though you have been here long enough to understand. If you let them know, you’ll abide and accept their concerns without debate, they may be more likely to let you know.
Introducing your issue in the middle of a thread about the filibuster may not be helping your cause. Maybe next time, try a really brief note to the mods, telling them you left them an explanation on a previous dead thread.
Obama to Expand Internet Access, by Frank BeachamJan 5, 2009 … Obama said Internet users must be free to access content, … discriminating in ways that limit the freedom of expression on the Internet. …
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/72354 – Cached – Similar
Exactly right, but we can’t live all cringe all the time.
There is legal space for a hypothetical, philosophical discussion about revolution. It is a historical fact around the world, and the mechanism of our ntional creation.
And the comments were full of the word following yesterday’s SCOTUS news, with nary a peep from the MOD. As seemed appropriate to me.
What is the future of a nation that has the following mentality?
Believes it is moral to make mega profits off the sick and needy:
Believes it is moral to deny coverage to its citizens for pre existing conditions:
Has 30 to 50 million people without health care insurance:
Has wars for profits for the few creating suffering around the world:
Calls their soldiers heroes for fighting in those wars for profits:
Builds monuments to those soldiers after they had killed one million Vietnamese in an illegal ideological war for profits: then there is Iraq and afghan.
Has a military expense larger than all of the other 23 industrialized countries combined:
Has states where families take pride in raising their children to fight in these illegal and immoral wars for profits:
Has 720 military bases around the world:
Believes that capitalism and patriotism are synonyms:
Corporate and military control of congress, white house, and now the supreme court and the election process:
A government that panders to Wall Street, banks, and corporations for money:
A nation that the prisons are over flowing with crime and drug problems:
One out of eight children on food stamps:
Hundreds of thousands going bankrupt over medical costs unheard of in other countries:
Corporations control most of the mass media:
A self acclaimed Christian nation that worships at the altar of capitalism an economic and political ideology of survival of the fittest mentality that goes against everything their savior taught:
A nation that has open borders with a third world country not out of compassion but a corporate and small business desire for cheap labor, long hours with no benefits:
A nation that gives tax breaks to corporations and the rich while many of their citizens lack medical care and live in poverty and die in their wars for profits:
A nation that one per cent of the population has more wealth than the bottom 95%:
A nation of tea baggers so dumbed down they are protesting for the very people that funds their efforts but robs them of their personal freedoms and any remaining wealth:
An educational system based on survival of the fittest competition in shambles:
A university system beholden to the industrial military complex for grants:
A religious university that builds a library in honor of a sociopath and war monger former president that invaded a third world country for their 40 years of oil reserves:
What is the future of such a nation? Self-destruction due to its own immorality?
Jane (love ya but) the interesting reality is that this nation does not have a clue it is an immoral imperialistic nation and capitalism as an ideological system has much to do with this immoral political, military, and economic corruption.
I like Rachel Maddow, but… I was just on her site where she declares the only way to get healthcare reform is to pass the senate bill and fix it later by reconciliation. Jane is right on. There will be no fix it later by this congress. After the 2010 elections fixing it will be even less likely to pass in the senate. The senate bill is not the first step toward healthcare reform. THE SENATE BILL IS THE BRIDGE TO NOWHERE!
Rachel follows her owners orders. Endless coverage of Iranian protesters while ignoring the Gaza Freedom March, Afghani protesters after the murders of those Afghani children allegedly by U.S. forces.
Ignored the Goldstone Report. Complete silence. She has her marching orders. If you face oppression in Ghana she will ocver it. If you face oppression by the Israeli government. Silence
Heh chose the wrong thread to say the “r” word even if it was meant to be a denigration. The problem I see with advocating “extra-legal” or any kind of revolution is more in the result. You get a government or a society brought about by upheaval, piercing the veil that such a thing cannot happen. Making it more likely that people look to “extra-legal” solutions rather than in system solutions. Meaning because of a revolt you make it more likely that there will be additional revolts and less respect for the rule of law. In essence you lay the ground work for a banana republic.
Sarah Palin gave a damn dumb response to Glenn Beck when she named George Washington as her favorite founding father. The real reason we owe him a debt of thanks was his leaving of power, peacefully, after 8 years of service and having both federalists and anti-federalists in his cabinet. He set up a precedent for the peaceful handover of power, something so many fledgling governments have great trouble with.
Ignores the tens of thousands dead, injured in Iraq and the millions displaced due to the invasion while focusing on the death and destruction in Haiti. Something is very very wrong in Emerald city
The legal line is between mere discussion and inciting to imminent action. That’s not a parse, it’s a relatively bright line.
Look it up, don’t take my word for it.
I think you can reference the DEBS case, circa 1920 (memory, again, don’t take my word for it).
Communication of complex ideas between human beings is always difficult and self-limiting, so the more specific and articulate the language is, the better to effect true communication. Parsing, when done honestly, is a noble endeavor. Spinning is not. I know the difference, and it is NEVER my intention to obfuscate. You are a regular here, so I sincerely hope you take me at my word on this.
Appreciate the advice. I try to be a good boy, really I do ;). But sometimes my brain just goes where it goes. But most of the time, I’m really civilized.
Anyway, there’s an obvious contradiction between the Mod’s standards yesterday on this issue as opposed to the day before. The word “revolution” suddenly became OK yesterday. So, I’d just like some clarification as to present policy re that topic.
Right. so, in the pressent context, when have they overreached, and what should reasonable people do about it when we agree they have?
Well, it has been my (maybe limited) experience here that the Mods don’t just arbitrarily decide to bounce comments. What you may have perceived as being frank discussion, they may have felt was crossing the line into advocacy of revolution.
And to be honest with you, if I were a Mod, someone continually whining about “where’s my comment” may not be a particularly strong tactic to make them move faster.
Just sayin’
And for some words of wisdom along these lines:
We accept the verdict of the past until the need for change cries out loudly enough to force upon us a choice between the comforts of further inertia and the irksomeness of action.
-Judge Learned Hand
Debs v. United States, 249 U.S. 211 (1919)
Thoughtful points, and I agree, but one has to compare those results to the slow crunch of the corporate heel on our necks. At some point, doesn’t it become very difficult to choose which is the lesser evil?
We are stuck with the hand we have been dealt. There will be no happy endings, no matter what. Not for the People.
Our current health care costs is 17% of GDP. A health care cost of 11% of GDP is possible/likely post single payer – maybe down to 8-9% a decade latter. Medicare is a single payer and along with Medicaid – is picking up about half of our heath care costs – for a cost 1.45% for employee/employer – 2.9% of payroll – with smaller contributions permitted from the General Budget (the FIT tax) for Medicare, and with Medicaid living on all Federal funds and State Funds. An expansion that does not involve buy in is an expansion that must be paid for via a revenue stream.
I do not think it possible to get that revenue stream and indeed this is the reason “single payer is dead”.
I like your idea – but I do not see it as possible, in general. But children and the young adult to age 25 are a relatively lower cost health care users, so an expansion that is “free” at these ages is perhaps “possible” (although I doubt it as the number is still large). However the expansion that is needed is the age 45 plus crowd – age 55 plus at the very least. And here the reason for the need – health care costs post being sick in the past and therefore having “pre-existing” problems – is also the reason why there must be paid a “buy in annual premium” as set by the Medicare administration – there is no revenue stream otherwise. A mandatory with all ins. organization plus Medicare claim pooling so no one is “stuck” with high claims/costs/premiums is also needed with any buy-in approach to Medicare expansion.
Have you ever published a diary over at the Seminal?
One of the ways this place survives is that no one gets paid what they are worth. The mods are not always going to be consistent. I think they volunteer more or less.
I was very impressed a few days ago by a comment you made about the rise in health insurance stocks. It was technically astute. That is a real asset to this place.
Per the wise words of dakine, what is right and correct is not always helpful in a current context. What your statements connote to those of us with lesser intellects, may be a concern to the mods.
Dean hasn’t used the term “piecemeal” per se, but specifically in regard to what the Democrats were proposing back in September, he did call for removing the subsidies and the mandate and passing insurance regulation along with incentivizing states to expand coverage in the case that Democrats fail to get a public option or Medicare buy-in.
I heard him say it in person, when he spoke here in Knoxville in September 2009.
He qualified his comments by saying, “strip out all the money.”
I’m not saying that this is what Dean wants for reform. I’m saying that this is what Dean thinks can and should be done in light of how badly the Democrats have fucked up the effort to reform health care.
I don’t think I crossed any lines, but that is why I am asking for some clarification of policy.
And, in fairness, I only whined about “Where’s my comments” because they were getting completely disappeared, one after the other. And my fingeres were getting blisters lol (nod to John Lennon).
Seriously, I don’t want to make this about me, I just want to have an open discussion of a topic that I think is begging for discussion. Which is, basically, the ideas presented in the Declaration of Independence. and their appicability to our time.
Yeah, that’s the ticket. Thanks.
Love it! And I always loved reading Learning Hand opinions in law school. One of the best, IMHO.
Agreed and actually I personally have come to the decision to not make any real efforts to obscure my identity or screen who I say what to. In a way I think it offers more protection from harassment from individuals or entities.
But in a lot of years I don’t think I have ever seen before, at all levels of law enforcement, the degree paranoia that the residents of the US are likely to respond with rioting to any destabilizing event, natural or man made. And I lived in downtown Atlanta during much of the civil rights turmoil and assassinations.
That said I know we and most of us understand that the owners/managers of a public political entity must be much more cautious. Personally I like having mods and hope they will keep me from going off the deep end.
So you don’t see that invoking the Declaration, (rather like how the tea partiers like to invoke Jefferson’s “Tree of Liberty”) can be perceived as calling for revolution, even though it was a document that was used to set up the first American Revolution?
What do you think you are invoking with it if not revolution?
then the deficit terrorist have won.
and instead of 3000 dead it will be tens of thousands every single year – and thousands more suffering physically, emotionally and economically.
three things:
1) medicare expansion must be for all (or virtually all) of the age group in question — not optional. (for regulatory reasons)
2) the revenue stream is taxes (not that i think that makes sense, at least while this deep recession lasts, i think it a big portion of it should be financed via fed budget deficit). it can’t be premium and out of pocket expensed based financing because then we are back to rationing by ability to pay.
premiums are a tax too. but they are a tax-the-sick scheme instead of a progressive tax of some sort.
3) for universal coverage, it can’t be premium based unless the people who refuse to pay the premium can still get healthcare. alternatively, healthcare could be withheld from those who refuse to pay. but why would we design a system that depends on healthcare providers to act as tax collection enforcers when we have the irs to do that? separating the taxation and enforcement functions from the healthcare system makes better sense.
At #186 I should have said lived or was working in downtown etc.
what new program?
aren’t debating the pros and cons of medicare buy in vs medicare expansion?
or am i missing something?
i actually came back to this thread to thank you for this, jane. regardless if powwow is right about what can be done currently (do the procedures really need to be modified to turn the filibuster back into what it was supposed to be, or can that be done under current rules), i agree with you and powwow 100% on this. first because it has the possibility of making public some of what is now done behind closed doors and 2) strict majority rule without even the chance for extended debate (which is all a filibuster is) to draw attention to an issue and make an appeal to the public, will give the republicans and a minority of conservadems a ruling coalition, if the dems on their own can’t implement their “entitlement reform” plans, to ram through legislation without the chance to mobilize the public.
Why would anyone want more than one term from obamarahm? Name one good thing that he has done? One promise kept? SHEESH
Evolution?
No, and I’m not sure I would even know how. Anyway, my greatest abilities run more along the lines of improving the existing content of things and situations, as opposed to creating new things out of whole cloth. I don’t think of myself as really being all that creative ;).
I take your last point to heart. One always runs the risk of being misinterpeted, it’s a limitation of this medium, I think. My intention here is always that my participation should be productive and, hopefully, beneficial to all the other participants, as well as myself. This place is very important to me.
I stopped practicing law almost 20 years ago, and have devoted myself to studying, predicting and trading the financial markets since then. So, processing information and thinking about how things work and what comes next is what my life has been about. BTW, if anyone here is looking for a trader, I’m looking for a client.
I started predicting that this countrty would slide into fascism in the early 70′s (as did many smarter people decades earlier), and have since, with regret, watched that prediction come to pass, step by step. Personally, I think it may well be too late to reverse that process.
it hasn’t happened to me recently (knock on wood), but i’ve had a lot of comments held in moderation because i forgot to limit the number of links i used. but the mods are always very helpful and responsive about dealing with my error. i do mention what happened in thread, with an apology to the mods, so that if anyone is interested in the links, etc. of my delayed comment, they know to refresh the page.
Agreed to all.
ledbetter, s-chip, stimulus (not enough but it was more i think than mccain would have done), and he released some toture docs the cia didn’t want him to.
that’s all i can think of off the top of my head.
Protected speech, as opposed to forbidden action. You don’t see any of those Teabaggers getting arrested, do you?
Don’t you see the irony of being afraid to discuss one of our own sacred national documents?
I am not too familiar with the moderators’ duties .
Do all the site such as EW, Boggs,Attackerman,etc. share the same mods?
Then I think we’ve reached the crux of the matter. It may be protected speech but I’m not at all sure it would be defined as intelligent speech.
And if you don’t see the difference, then it makes me wonder.
You might see it as protected speech but I’d hazard the guess that the Mods see it as “someone yelling “FIRE” in the theater.”
i don’t know.
LOL! Exactly, ObamaRahma & the Dems. hate these brown nosers even more then they hate us dirty hippies. At least some of us are looking them ( O & the dems.) right in the face and saying “what’s in it for us assholes?” Right, just as we thought.
I think we have to make finer distinctions than that.
“Intelligent” can’t always mean hiding in a hole and never sticking one’s head out. If that is what is required to survive, then haven’t we already lost the greater battle that we all profess to be fighting?
Not when in it’s being used as a pretext and basis for advocating revolution today, no.
Oops. Sorry. Meant as a reply to razorbrain @ 199
Well said, Jane ! It is appalling how the democrats have hidden behind quasi rules and regulations to avoid transparent voting on issues. All bills should be voted with a simple majority wins rule. Every single legislator should be required to state his vote, no hiding votes, no tabling bills anonymously. We need truth in advertising, that way we can make a more informed choice as to whom we want to represent us in Congress.
Well, I’m not using it as such a pretext. So maybe you should re-examine your own conception of the meaning of “liberty” and the concept of being a free person. I’m just saying.
Hypothetically speaking, if someone were to take on the enormous personal risk of leading a successful revolution, and instituted a regime that brought America to where it was everything you always dreamed it could and should be, would you then treat that person with respect and gratitude, or would you rather devote your energies to reviling that person for being less than “intelligent?”
By your definition, the Founders were idiots. Re-examine your premises.
60 votes is the only thing that can save us from you progressive brown shirts. Who will be the 1st dem to change the rules when your socialist rule is over in 2012?
Well, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. As someone mentioned above, the likely result of a “revolution” today is violence. A LOT of violence. And that is in no way a disrespect to the Founders who did put life and liberty on the line.
I think a far more likely outcome, rather than your hoped for
is a replay of the French Revolution.
But I guess I’m just a hater for all that.
Please make this a post in Seminal so we can link to it.
My fear is that violence will become a self fulfilling prophecy if our governments continue with their irrational fear of the people. I am much more concerned with the military and the media predicting, even claiming rioting very time there is some major or minor disruption in the routine of things.
No, that doesn’t make you a hater, and it doesn’t make you wrong. I am not pretending to have the ultimate answer, I’m just saying a discussion would be in order. From where I sit right now, I don’t see how a revolution could succeed. It’s not musket v. musket anymore.
But there are many extra-legal tactics, of which revolution is just one, that could pressure the powers that be. I think, in light of recent history, we need to look at them. A discussion is the starting point, maybe the end point as well, but certainly within our rightful purvue to engage in.
I do think, big picture, that violence in mnay forms is being perpetrated upon us right now, and I think the “system” depends on us not being willing to respond with anything but words. And our words don’t move them at all. In case you hadn’t noticed.
Yes, indeed, the powers lined up to crush any attempt at meaningful change are diverse and powerful.
Maybe we should just give up?
I think we need to start thinking in more militant terms. I don’t know how far we should push that. But I recall the image of all those Rethugs crowding the vote-counting office in Florida and threatening violence if the counting continued. If we can’t ever match that desire to win, then they will always win. And I don’t want to live in the world they have in mind for us.
My legal training gives me an edge in judging when the system is being thoroughly gamed and disrespected. It is now. (Citizens United is a glaring example, they should not even have reached the issues they decided the case on.) Do you continue to play with a cheater by his rules, or do you do something else?. That is the question.
Walter Karp. Say again: Walter Karp. One of the most trenchant political observers to have written on American politics.
Journalist and political writer Walter Karp (1934–1989) was born in New York City and died there at age fifty-five. As a left-of-center Jeffersonian, he passionately criticized American politics, foreign policy, and public education from a consciously republican standpoint. He defended inherited civil liberties and denounced political and economic oligarchs with a rudeness that put him well outside mainstream discourse. [1] He wrote several books and numerous essays in Pageant, Horizon, American Heritage, and The Public Life (which he coedited with H. R. Shapiro in the late 1960s), and was a regular contributor to Harper’s from 1979 to 1989. He was active in PEN’s Freedom to Write Committee. [2]
Noteworthy essays by Karp include “How to Think about Politicians” (Horizon, January 1977), a blistering treatment of Woodrow Wilson; “Textbook America” (Harper’s, May 1980) and “Why Johnny Can’t Think” (Harper’s, June 1985), on public schools; as well as “The Cold War Decoded” and “All the Congressman’s Men” (Harper’s, July 1989). [3] Karp’s books include Indispensable Enemies: The Politics of Misrule in America (1974), The Politics of War: The Story of Two Wars Which Altered Forever the Political Life of the American Republic (1890–1920) (1979), Liberty Under Siege: American Politics: 1976–1988 (1988), and the posthumous collection Buried Alive: Essays on Our Endangered Republic (1992). Harper’s editor Lewis Lapham wrote that Karp “had the courage to think for himself” and compared him—as “a writer cut in the American grain”—to Ambrose Bierce, Albert Jay Nock, and H. L. Mencken. [4]
http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1354&loc=r
Native American tribes, the slaves, and their descendants were the victims of legalized white supremacy until the 1960′s. Their attempts at armed insurrection made their situations worse and they were the frequent victims of official and unofficial violence. I think similar lessons can be learned from the Lincoln County War (Billy the Kid) and the Johnson Cty (Wyoming) War. The Posse Comitatus Act is real important imho.
IMHO, any commenter who suggests anything, that might be construed as illegal, puts FDL and the mods in a very difficult situation. One exception might be the filing, but non payment, of federal income taxes.
Probably because Raul is not a good ol boy.
………..a fine list…I would like to add a note about our prison industry, incarcerating ?25%? of the world’s prisoners………
My kids are politically tone deaf (probably my own fault), or trying to not get into an argument with their mates, or too comfortable…….but every once in a while, I just gotta stick this in their faces, like today……..thanks, “researcher”
thanks for that info. i ordered karp’s book immediately after reading johnemerson’s comment (doesn’t mean i’ll get to read it immediately though). sounds very interesting.
if i understand right your address is not in his district? what i do is go to mcdonalds web site, find a mac in his district and use that address. breid
AGREED. We don’t have the 51 House votes for reconciliation, and we never did. Blue Dogs and/or Stupak and cohorts would never let that fly. That’s why we needed the 60 votes for a really bad bill. No one (Obama, Pelosi, et al.) will state this completely absurd truth! Blue dogs are Democrats in name only, and the Dem majority in Congress is also in name only.
Jane, I agree 100%.
When I first started hearing that the Democrats “needed” 60 votes my reaction was: I am but a simple caveman, I know not of this 60 votes which you speak.
I don’t think the general public buys into the idea that 60 votes are required to get things done. The public is far more likely to believe that even if the Democrats had 80 seats in the Senate, 30 of them would spontaneously decide to explore their new found bluedog roots.
What you seem to be advocating for is timidity and inaction. You might begin by pointing out who on this thread is advocating for extra-legal measures and also by what that means.
We have timidity and inaction to spare in the government now as far as the public’s interest is concerned we can do with less of it.
I for one believe in the public taking extra governmental action.Taking measures that rely on the public itself and not on a government that has shown itself to be at the same time ineffectual and corrupt. The public will need to rely on itself by adopting popular measures like defunding banks and corporations, proposing local ballot initiatives as to how to run its health insurance schemes. And voting out the feckless democrats by replacingt them with candidates of our liking.
There is plenty that can be done by the public without resorting either to timidity or armed rebellion.
Just as an historical observation, in the examples you gave, they just didn’t have the numbers.
So, you don’t think it’s safe to discuss ANYTHING more militant than filing but not paying your taxes? I bet that’s got the power elite quaking in thier boots.
I understand and share your concerns about protecting FDL. This is not an easy thing to deal with. I just think we need to do some brainstorming about some other options than the ones that have not been working.
Dear Jane,
I am with you on the Health Care Issue because as a cancer survivor, we have something in common. The gay marriage thing is off my radar screen, I see it as a civil rights issue, and other than that have no interest in the issue. (pukes me out) I could not disagree with you more on the 60 Votes issue : if we have two House of Representatives then we won’t have a Congress, the U.C. and the 60 vote threshold is vital to the Higher House of Congress, and every time either side gets impatient, they always want to adapt a to hell with the Constitution attitude, it IS a Miracle that what ever is left of a United States still exists, and I Love ALL whom actively work to keep the U.S. Constitution ALIVE, even if i don’t agree with everyone all the time on every issue, we are supposed to “work it out” and be collectively free from tyranny of any sort.
Thank you for having Rep. Grayson on your site, he is one of the few Democrats who has any Constitutional balls these days.
following is a letter I sent to U.S. Senator Maria Cantwell today. I met Her last January, and She is a wonderful soul, and as a fellow c-span observer, I know that you are aware where She stands. I would advise asking Her to show up on your blog sometime.
This is in regard to the maine issue in my book : ENERGETICS or “how are we hairless apes going to transition to a place where we will exist in a more perfect harmony with Earth, before we destroy ourselves and all other life forms on earth just so we can plug something into a wall socket, or ride our lazy asses down the boulevard”
Dear Senator Cantwell,
Just discovered the “battle in Seattle” 1999 story, I was working “in the field” at the time and missed the details. All I have to say is : ETERNALLY MOST HIGH GOD BLESS SEATTLE AND ALL THE SOULS WHOM STOOD UP AGAINST THE W.T.O. It is a modern day event that strengthens my faith that there still is a United States on Earth.
You should know that I have a Very High Regard of You and what you have stood for as a U.S. Senator. The Health Care Debacle is tragic, especially when one considers that your contributions to the Legislation are practically the only valid portion of the Senate “version”, and after having to witness the Senate at it’s worst, I don’t have much hope that an honest, honorable or ethical energy bill can be possible with the 111th. Congress, and on that matter I still think that the Honorable Maria Cantwell is our best bet, considering Senate Records. However in light of the recent Supreme Court Constitutional blunder, and the fact that we are running out of time to get our act together as a species whom chooses to live in harmony with the beautiful tiny Planet that we are presently riding around on, I have some decisions to make concerning how to best get my idea on how to generate electricity to the PEOPLE, before the abject corporate evils put a strangle-hold on any ideas newer than the 17th. century, or 1920′s tuxedo park bunch; as anyone with common sense is perfectly aware that fossil fuels, offshore drilling, nuclear, windmills as far as the eye can see, “clean” coal, ect. are paths to certain doom for future generations, and since my personal motivation is more Spiritual, and Patriotic, and not so much of the “i wanna bring the idea to market” perspective, I have entrusted You with enough of a start on my idea to be able to “make it happen”, as only a Federal Senator would have the access to the avenues required to “make it happen”. (we should be moving as quickly as possible – “no news is good news” “ain’t cuttin it”)
Dear Senator, please stand against one of the worst Supreme Court 5 to 4 fiasco’s since the Kelo Decision.
Sincerely,
A.J. Max Cherbonneaux
p.s. Dear Jane: I love you for what you do, please don’t screw up the Senate 60 Vote threshold, go after the chicken shit practice of “anonamous holds” instead.
Jane, it would be really helpful if FDL and other news sources would publish a count of House Reps who would constitute the 51 vote majority needed to pass reforms via reconciliation. (I doubt there are 51 to be found). Let them be named by the press, and also let the “against” Reps be listed and the “unknowns.” It would be good to know who is to blame for this deadlock, and perhaps it would push their constituents to take some action.
The point that you miss is that not everyone is a “lawyer who knows where the line is.”
So you’re lawyer, you walk up to the line, look around, cogitate on it for a bit, and you’re OK. It’s only been an intellectual exercise.
But what about the X number of folks who are following you who do NOT know where the line is but go running and take a large leap beyond the line and into the area that gets folks in trouble? Are you willing to pick up your law practice and defend all those folks for following your lead?
Or are you just an agent provacateur, using your legal background as justification for stirring up trouble for others and walking away?
I have an idea that is why your initial problems probably got started. The PTB at FDL most likely felt that it was in the interests of ALL (not just the curious lawyer who claims exceptional knowledge) to pull the reins and shortstop a no win discussion before it could get others in trouble.
Wow. Why don’t you get somebody to video this process?
IOW, I’d like to see a demo of your Demo-dog. :-)
Hey, maybe it’ll help get the point across.
I have been in and out for parts of this debate but what you say pulls it together in a picture that makes sense for me.
What we really need to see is an aware public: I think that is happening and can be shown in the MA polling. And Obama hitting the campaign trail is NOT going to quell any of this. That, SCOTUS, and whatever else comes in the quickening of the devolution we are seeing will all just pile on to opeing eyes everywhere. The lies do not provide the cover any more. In fact, the lies served up are only more evidence against the oligarchy, clear for all to see. A fraction of the money eaten up by bailouts and war would provide health care and economic security for everyone else. It is obscene and it is being noticed.
Busting the 60 votes and the filibuster myths are a key element of this progress being made. Wild cheers for Jane, selise, and powwow for all their groundbreaking and *principled* work.
Any propaganda push can be met by the foundation and voice created here at FDL.
And speaking of propaganda: I have a very bad feeling that this MDs sob story is very badly formulated propaganda … they will call it a *representative* story no doubt when the truth comes out on the front page of the NYT in 2 years time.
The whole mess is beyond putrid and disgusting.
I don’t know whether you’ll be referring back to these comments at this late date, but I’ll respond anyway.
I am NOT an agent provocateur, so just put that out of your mnd, OK? Nobody supports the goals and aspirations that readers of this site believe in more than I do. So, we are only debating tactics.
I appreciate your point about everyone not knowing where the legal line is, but for this discussion, that line has been clearly delineated in the discussion itself. The implied paternalism of your concern never sits well with me, but at the same time, rest assured I’m not trying to get myself or anyone I sympathize with in trouble.
But that presents a real conundrum, doesn’t it. I’ve spent the last half century waiting for conventional tactics to yield some beneficial change, and all I have seen is progress in the opposite direction, toward more authoritarianism and more timidity. It ain’t working, and there is such a thing as a point of no return. I fear we may already have passed that point.
My desire to discuss VARIOUS extra-legal tactics just reflects my sincere desire to see some change in the right direction. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result . . . well, you know what that is.
Far from advocating a revolution, I doubt one could succeed in this environment, but I think we need to explore all our options, in discussion at least, because maybe someone will have a brilliant idea that can work. But I’m not a hopeless dreamer. We can’t even get a decent street demonstration going, so the idea of a widespread, organized revolt is just a pipe dream at this point, I concede. But at the same time, if we don’t start thinking outside the box, we are doomed to spend our future in ever smaller boxes.
Finally, our dialogue has become uncomfortably personal in nature, you seem to have made it a personal mission to needle me. I apologize for sometimes reacting to that, I’ll try to be a better person. Perhaps you can mirror that by trying to understand me more than trying to misinterpret me. Communication is limited in this medium, so maybe my comments could sometimes be fleshed out more fully, but you seem to have developed a pattern of seizing upon every ambiguity or lack of detail to assume the worst about my thoughts or intentions. That’s not justified, so please give me some credit for operating in good faith when I am on here.
My complaints about the Mods have been based only upon the obvious and undeniable discrepancy between their censorship of certain words and ideas by me, while allowing them by others. For proof, revisit the intitial posts following the Citizens United decision—there were MANY that used the word “revolution.”
Peace.
But that Obama guy has a really nice smile, so he couldn’t possibly by messing you up behind the scenes! I noticed that Daschle is saying pass the senate bill or die these days. I also noticed that while the Hill notes in the story that he is working for a law firm, they don’t point out that it is a lobbying firm that has health insurance industry clients. But I’m sure that he couldn’t possibly be messing us up behind the scenes either because he has put together a bipartisan policy group. They really do think we’re stupid, and we have been for a long time. It’s going to take a lot more than Scott Brown for them to figure out this isn’t just a need to spin better and the old ways aren’t going to cut it.