You’re right, Jane.

It’s just incredible how many people stare the facts right in the face and deny them. The Senate bill is toxic industrial waste. They could give us real health care, but they don’t really want to…

I think it is important to remember just who isn’t getting it.

Those are the people likely not to get it in the future barring some conversion event, and the requisite penance.

If I may be so bold, many who did not get it and still do not get it wasted no time in libeling Jane Hamsher.

Jane, just a quick drive-by to let you know the link for Van Hollen takes you to an old Plum Line article on Howard Dean.

Public Service Announcement: Have you drop-kicked your bankster today?

***

It IS the bankster full-court press (“Banks now checking your Twitter and Facebook activity to see if you’re worthy of getting a loan” at http://www.americablog.com/2010/01/banks-now-checking-your-twitter-and.html).

Here’s one simple, off-the-cuff “Vote with Your Feet” check list (not in perfect rank order and some things clearly should be simultaeous actions)–

1. Move your money to an ethically managed, sound credit union under watchful local control. (Reference: “American Casino” ; trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_UIOWxNr0Q). Force all credit union IT and customer support services (e.g. call centers) state-side and into your local community (Oh look there are jobs!!). For inspiration, “Adios BofA!!” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvRjt0j2p-Y ; follow-up at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LwP58FSU1). Then, make your video via “Share Your Story” (http://moveyourmoney.info/archives/397). Educate your family and friends. Keep up at MoveYourMoney.Info.

2. Support FDL. Kill the Senate bill. Say “YES!” to Single-payer Universal Healthcare.

3. Do your part to kill the Hedge Funds and Private Equity Firms by sucking back every penny from the “American Casino” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_UIOWxNr0Q) (Hint: a local Credit Union you have vetted and trust.)

4. Put your personal telecomm provider on pay-go if you can (Cricket is the present “evil-of-the-lessers” although they outsource Customer Support to India).

5. Be stay up with what’s happening, be informed: “Goldman Sachs Plans Forecast for the Your Life U.S. Economy” (http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/25481)

6. Repurpose, recycle not buy. If you buy, go local, go co-op, go cash unless you’ve switched to that vetted, local credit union (e.g., NOT Starbucks, NOT Whole Food$ as they are bankster-controlled creatures of the “American Casino”).

Scroogle.Org NOT Google.Com (unless you really need that meta data!)

Ubuntu NOT MicroSoft.

7. Once you’ve got your financial house in order– when you can– fire your bankster-owned employer and thereby your worthless, bankster-owned medical insurer to which your worthless bankster-owned employer has sold you (reference: “At A Job Interview” at http://agonist.org/sean_paul_kelley/20100117/at_a_job_interview). Don’t worry, you don’t need the services of those to which the worthless medical insurers direct you. You do need a lower risk life and work style to stay alive plus neighbors on the same page (How do you think folks finally broke the banksters in the 1930s? Now do you get the strategic value of universal healthcare at this juncture of American history?)

8. Don’t stop there– clean house at your local city and county government, especially the county court house (reference: the meat is at the boldfaced-links in “‘Pootie’ Justice: A Cat is Called for Jury Duty” at http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/1/15/825421/-Pootie-Justice:-A-Cat-is-Called-for-Jury-Duty). Make your City and County hire and employ ethically and locally; vett and buy ethically and locally; work ethically and locally (reference: Lochner era at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lochner_era)

Great title…the bill is so tarnished it should be dead by now.

Yes, because once you pass nothing, people will flock to your party? The reall bullshit is thinking that if they don’t pass something they can start over. Republicans will simply point out the Dems inability to legislate. If they don’t want to passs the junk bill, then take the good elements and pass them. Anyone who thinks killing the bill and starting over is a damn fool! It won’t happen and Dems will be seen as weak and ineffective.

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup freedom Fighters:

First of all, do you have any feedback on the callin’ tree that you pushed in the last thread? In my opinion, this kinda action, if ya ken get the blowhards and sunshine patriots off their asses and onto the telephone, is the most efective political grassroots activism there is next to turnin up a few thousand constituents in the office of a congresscritter. This is what you do best Sister Jane and the coordination and information sharing is beginnin’ to scare the shit outta mainsream mediawhores.

Second, has anyone been tellin’ you that the road to progressive victory lies in the House of Representatives (that’s rhetorical, dear)…since Obamarahma has hidden behind the disfunctonal Senate and since the House of Representatives is up every 2 years, Obama has given leadership of the party in legislative action to the House and he will never get it back. You have gotta be feelin’ pretty good right now but I want to caution you to be careful how close you dance to Grayson and Ron Paul…you may end up hatin’ yourself in the mornin’.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…IT’S MORE FUN TO FIGHT THAN EATIN SHIT!!

Dark Humor Alert: “Arnoldbucks: IOUs for Californians” (http://www.youtube.com/user/AndyCobbonUTube#p/a/f/3/YVKMA–nt4I). The possibilities are endless!!

It certainly looks as if the senate bill is dead meat- as is any further action on health reform for this presidency.

I can’t imagine that the risk adverse senate is going to give 15 minutes more thought to this issue- and the house won’t pass it as it is. A perfect storm.,

If Obama had ditched the Invidudal Mandate last weekend, we’d be talking about Senator elect Coakley.

I’m glad they’re saying publically that “it would be a mistake for Dems to pretend the unpopularity of the Senate reform proposals wasn’t a factor in the Massachusetts loss.”

Yesterday, during her press conference, Pelosi said the Senate bill was crap that would need fundamental changes before the House would pass it.

The only way the Senate bill could be made marginally acceptable would be with MAJOR fixes to be enacted through reconciliation. Unfortunately, only bloggers are talking fervently about reconciliation and salvaging a win from the Senate fiasco. All of the politicians are looking for ways to either force acceptance of the Senate bill as-is or forgetting about it altogether. They are not interested in improving it in any way, and will scuttle any attempt at reconciliation.

Do the politicians believe that reconciliation is too difficult, or are they really just afraid of doing anything the insurance companies won’t like? I think the SCOTUS’ giveaway to their corporate sponsors yesterday probably has a more chilling effect on Congressional Democrats than the loss in Massachusetts. They can fight back against public perceptions of their effectiveness, but they probably believe they can’t fight corporate campaign dollars going to their opponents, and they’re probably right. Members of Congress will NEVER AGAIN do the bidding of mere voters. They have new bosses who will be calling all the shots from now on.

The Senate bill will be left to die, because the insurance companies don’t like it. Voters don’t count, corporate dollars do. It’s as simple as that.

Absolutely, dead wrong. The Senate bill could be much, much better–I support a public option–but the regulation and subsidies are huge improvements over what we have now. Congress has an obligation to pass this (stinker of a) bill. Civil rights came slowly too.

Can someone please explain how the Amish, who don’t attend school beyond 8th grade, can have this figured out, when the rest of us can’t?

Don’t worry yourself too much. They’re going to still pass the insurance regulations. And they’re going to use other means to incentivize states to do more to expand coverage.

Trouble is, you NEED the individual mandate or some other mechanism if you are going to insure without regard to pre-existing conditions. “Adverse selection” is the nightmare of any insurance plan- profit or not for profit.

If people can wait and buy the fire insurance AFTER their house burns down- you only sell policies on burnt houses.

You sure can be a[Edited by Mod. No name calling. Argue facts only, not insults], Jane.

There are a lot of reasons to like the bill and a lot to dislike it. (I won’t delve into that debate right now because it’s quite well trod and you’re clearly not going to be persuaded otherwise at this stage.) But on a political level, you’re absolutely smoking crack if you think the Democrats will fare better in November after having passed NO substantial reform whatsoever (which, make no mistake, they 100%, bet-your-life-on-it won’t if this bill goes down in flames). I defy you to show me the polling data that demonstrates the party’s electoral odds will improve if they throw the whole effort out the window. You can’t, it doesn’t, and it won’t—because legislators who come off as utterly, utterly impotent simply don’t get reelected. A !@#$%& eight-year-old could understand this cause and effect better than you seem to.

You’ve stepped out of the legitimate policy objections camp and into the twilight zone of borderline-{Edited by Mod. That slur is frowned on at FDL] political strategy, Jane.

Cass, Is that you ?

It’s Van Hollen who has said the bill is irrevocably tarnished, and that’s the guy in charge of electing Dems, and you’re calling Jane an a___?

Really, you should take it up with the Van Hollen.

Passing the crappy Senate bill will mainstream the Coakley-style MA loss this fall. Passing nothing will also mainstream the Coakley-style MA loss this fall.

D’s getting off their collective asses and actually legislating some change would produce favorable electoral results this year. IMO Democrats do not want to govern. They seem to want to be the nominal opposition party to the batshit crazy party, yet silently facilitate the crazy.

Gentle Jesus, Jane. What the **** are you talking about?

There are a lot of reasons to like the bill and a lot to dislike it. (I won’t delve into that debate right now because it’s quite well trod and you’re clearly not going to be persuaded otherwise at this stage.) But on a political level, you’re absolutely smoking crack if you think the Democrats will fare better in November after having passed NO substantial reform whatsoever (which, make no mistake, they 100%, bet-your-life-on-it won’t if this bill goes down in flames). I defy you to show me the polling data that demonstrates the party’s electoral odds will improve if they throw the whole effort out the window. You can’t, it doesn’t, and it won’t—because legislators who come off as utterly, utterly impotent simply don’t get reelected. A ****** eight-year-old could understand this cause and effect better than you seem to.

You’ve stepped out of the legitimate policy objections camp and into the twilight zone of borderline-[Edited. That term is frowned upon here] political strategy, Jane.

I can’t believe how bad this all is. It is as if the Democrats are incapable of imagining what will be going through the mind of a voter come this November: “All this fuss about a reform bill. My premiums just went up another 25%, and I’m paying three times as much as a young person, plus an extra 10% since I have high blood pressure and another 10% because my job as an independent truck driver has been declared ‘risky’. I had mediocre insurance, now it’s been ‘excised taxed’ down to junk status because it supposedly became a ‘Cadillac plan’ over the summer — now my deductible is $5k a year with $100 co-pays and no prescription coverage. I have a tooth abscess, but can’t afford to get that taken care of, because dental wasn’t in any of the reform measures. When I’m on the road, I am always out-of-network and so have to pay nearly every dime anyway. My adult daughter with two kids — she just had her insurance rescinded because she didn’t mention the acne treatments when she was 14. My other son, who is gay, is considered ‘single’ by the government and so the $20k a year he makes means he’s not poor enough ever to get help with the insurance premiums…and he gets taxed extra because he’s trying to cover his husband. My next door neighbor has diabetes and can’t get insurance at any price, because there won’t be any help to get any until 2014 at the soonest. My uncle has kidney trouble, but his insurance doesn’t have any in-network nephrologists.”

Yeah, like these are the people who’ll say “Yay Democrats! Let’s vote for ‘em again!”?

Have our elected Democratic congresscritters completely forgotten that in 10 months, people won’t be saying “Maybe in 4 years things’ll get better”?

Well, deep within the “its over for health care” and “the bill is bad” and “the bill is dead” and “we cant” and “we wont”….

There has to be a “yes we can”

So whats all the bellyachin about? Write your senators and congressmen and tell them to Pass something besides gas.. Now. Before its too late and our 50 year wait has to become 60 years. The time is now !! History awaits us or our dream will become history…. Wake Up!! and get some…

We still have a majority in our Congress and the Executive and we..can..do..something which is alot better than nothing. Dont give in..give…

JClausen–nope. No idea who Cass is. I’m my own fellow, never posted here under any name but agramante.

You do know there is still a marginally acceptable House bill don’t you?

Respectfully, the damage to the Democrats by the Democrats has already been done. There will likely be little difference if a craptacular bill is passed or nothing is passed.

Health Care Reform has become a smelly pile of shit that politicians are running away from as fast as their legs can carry them.

The White House says that the prez has more important things to do- so he’s leaving it to congress.

The senate says that it will require 60 votes to do anything beyond what it’s done- and that the votes aren’t there.

The house says that it can’t pass the senate bill cause it doesn’t have the votes.

I think we are starting to get the message “Who put this pile of shit on my doorstep?”

Van Hollen can say whatever he likes about the bill—lest we forget, incompetent misreadings of the MA election results are a dime a dozen in Congress these days—but I 100% guarantee you that the voters in November will better remember the utter failure of the Democratic party to pass health care reform than they would some incidental shit sandwich forced into the bill to get Ben Nelson on board. You’ve lost your mind if you think the latter will drag the Dems down more than the former.

Does no one remember 1994? No one?

I just spoke to Rep Ben Lujan’s legislative aide for healthcare, who re-affirmed that Lujan is for the public option and against the tax on middle class healthcare plans. He joined a group sending a letter to Pelosi saying he was against the middle class tax on healthcare benefits.

He said he doesn’t know if Lujan would be for or against the Senate bill because it has not come up for vote and cited Pelosi saying yesterday that the House would not vote on the Senate bill to say that some other version will likely be voted on.

I told him that we apprciate Lujan standing up for us and that we need him to stand strong in spite of Dem central trying to shift the blame for healthcare problems on to progressives.

You should wander off to someone who can help you formulate this nonsensical argument better. Click here to see Jason Rosenbaum’s fine effort to do just that. Thanks.

I’m pretty pleased with my own formulation thanks. If you have a counter argument I’d be pleased to hear it. I haven’t seen one yet.

That simply makes the case for the “social insurance” model. See Malcom Gladwell’s “The Moral Hazard Myth.”

incompetent misreadings of the MA election results are a dime a dozen in Congress these days

You mean like how the voters in the bluest of blue states suddenly became more conservative because Coakley voiced support for the Senate bill with the execrable Nelson and Lieberman fingerprints all over it?

Yeah that makes sense. If you check the folks who have actually analyzed the poll results, Coakley’s numbers tanked after she said she would vote for the Senate bill as it is today.

Here, here afterthought!

the utter failure of the Democratic party to pass health care reform

That failure has already been accomplished in the Senate bill. Six of one, half dozen of the other.

Oh, and you should read some Phoenix Woman about 1994. We can thank Rahm’s decisionmaking for that fiasco as well!

It is easy for you to say you want a public option when you know the ‘stinker’ Senate bill doesn’t have one. You sound like Representative Murphy’s group. When I ask, “Well, will you oppose the bill if it doesn’t have one?”, then it is all “we don’t know what the final bill will look like”. You pitiful evasive people are worse than trying to catch flying jello.

This sausage makeing was mixed with the shit off the floor.You ever here of the Mad Cow Disease.This is Obama’s Psycho Hog.

Honestly, the haters won. And am I the only one frekin confused about what to do?

Of course I’m aware of the House bill—I much prefer it. But do you have any idea how infinitesimal the odds now are of passing something in line with the House version, unless it comes about through a package of alterations to the Senate bill reconciliation? What fantasy land are people living in who think the house bill can still pass both houses as a whole? Haven’t you been reading the whiny, gutless responses pouring out of the Democratic caucus with each passing hour?

I don’t expect the House will be able to summon the will pass the Senate bill at this rate, so I’m not optimistic about the entire enterprise. But I can damn sure promise you health care reform won’t move forward in any meaningful way unless that Senate bill goes through. That’s just the mathematical reality of the situation.

I only heard part of Obama’s speech this morning… pushing back against his critics.

Boo hooo, poor Obama… everyone’s out to get him.

If only he would stand up to his campaign promises he wouldn’t be in the fix he’s in.

I’m only guessing, but I don’t think they will pass nothing… However, they know for sure that people are now watching — and aren’t as stupid as they thought.

If they end up doing a ‘full’ insurance sellout, with loopholes for the insurance company up the ying yang etc, — 2010 is going to be Armageddon for the Democratic Party.

Unlike physicians, nurses, allied health professionals, hospitals, Big Pharma and medical device providers, the current health insurance cartel provides zero value to patients. They are 20% more expensive than Medicare and have zero incentive to control costs. They privatize the profits from selling insurance to those who don’t need it, while they socialize the losses onto the taxpayers via Medicare and Medicaid. If we do not take back the revenue they are skimming, they will just use it to bribe more pols to keep their franchise.

I think his town hall in OH today was the beginning of the 2010 campaign. It’s on! Seriously, I think he’s trying to get out ahead of the shit that’s about to hit him in the wake of MA last Tues by defining himself as a fighter and a populist among the people.

What politicians and partisans forget, is that everyday ordinary normal people can tell the difference between doing something vs. the right thing.

People want the right thing to be done, not just any old thing.

you are sounding mighty whiny and gutless yourself/s.

It isn’t an either or situation. That kind of thinking is for…………

We want to take this opportunity to improve on the Senate bill. We know it can be improved and that to be told ‘that’s just how it is’ is the kind of fatalism you rely on to get away with lousy legislation.

That simply isn’t true. California (amongst other states) requires coverage for pre-existing conditions, yet there is no mandate. Requiring a mandate is just an AHIP talking point.

Remember, folks, this is the DCCC Chair, speaking ex cathedra, saying this.

And this is the heart of the matter, right here:

“Because of provisions like the Nebraska deal, the Senate bill has been branded in a way that understandably makes it unacceptable in its current form to many voters, especially independents,” Van Hollen told me, adding that Senator Ben Nelson has acknowledged this provision is problematic and must be changed.

He said this was a lesson of Tuesday’s loss: “The Massachusetts election turned on lots of factors. One factor was health care reform,” he said, referring to the Senate bill.

Translation: The current Senate Bill is what killed Martha Coakley and it’s what will kill my people, the House Dems, if we’re forced to tie ourselves to it.

If coverage is provided by the govt. through taxation, then THIS problem disappears- but that requires a single payer system- which is WAY off the table now.

Exactly. It’s not an either/or situation.

The Senate is useless.

“toxic industrial waist”
Wouldn’t Summers just dump it on the poor of the world?
Yeah us.

Didja see arthurw @28 reminding us all to heed the warning of 1994? Ha ha ha.

Here’s the California policy:

“SUMMARY OF YOUR RIGHTS
If you are joining a group health plan, You have the right to not be denied coverage on the basis of your health status, medical condition or history, genetic information, disability or insurability.
You have the right to receive coverage for preexisting conditions in most cases within 12 months (or, in some instances, 6 months) of enrolling in a health care plan.
If you are enrolling in an individual plan, you have the right not to be denied coverage if you have had 18 months of continuous coverage previously and meet certain other requirements.
You have the right to be credited for time enrolled in a previous plan against any preexisting condition waiting period.”

So apparently- if an insurance company agrees to insure you, they have to cover your pre-existing condition after a year or so- but they don’t have to insure you at all- unless you already HAVE insurance.

If this is the extent of reform we want, we can have it instantly.

Start over? We’ll give you start over!
Free access to, Universal, readily available, high quality health care for all persons, based on need.
May I Have Unanimous Consent?
Are there any objections?
The Bill is passed as read.
Next

Requiring a mandate is just an AHIP talking point.

Apparently, it’s now a HCAN talking point, too.

Mr. Van Holland, yours is the first comment that I’ve heard/read from any Congressperson that actually taps at the truth! The people are angry – we’re tired of being used and abused by both sides of the aisle! We’re tired of lies and the liars that continue to promulgate them as though they are truth! We’re tired of bailing out everyone else except for the Average American! We’re tired of hearing WE can’t when we know “yes you can” you just have to grow a spine first! The American people are tired of being put on the back-burner, yet every 2 to 6 years, here you people come again asking for our votes! Enough is Enough! Either Democrats in Congress need to get a spine, and start actually working for the American people that they are supposed to represent, or they will continue to loose – until the marching starts!!

Chris Bowers writes

the House does not have 218 votes unless there is a promise to pass a cleanup fix to the Senate bill through the reconciliation process …The Senate does not have the votes to pass the cleanup fix through reconciliation:

So do you pressure the house or the senate. It’s a matter of whose side you’re going to take…

Tell Arthur than Rahm gave us 1994 by forcing NAFTA on us. That demoralized the unions that made up a key chunk of the ground troops for the Dem base.

Not at all, tomthumber. There’s nothing evasive in my statement. I think incremental progress is better than none. A public option is (a) less expensive, according to the CBO, and (b) a much more effective check on private insurers’ abuses than any national or state-based exchange. But the political process has produced the lousy Senate bill, which only does a portion of the good this country needs. I say we go with what we have. As for the misrepresentations of it (death panels and the like), once the program’s in place, people will start to see the difference between lies and reality.

You’re just fighting the ugly cartoons in your head, when it comes to your pointless insults.

I hope you are right… and more importantly… I hope his actions match his rhetoric.

I am sick of all talk and no action for the middle class.

Arthur: 1994 happened because the Clinton White House shoved NAFTA (aka the Kill-the-Unions bill) down our throats, thus demoralizing the union members that make up a key part of the Democratic base. And the same guy who gave us NAFTA is the same guy behind shoving the Current Senate Bill, As Is, down our throats without reconciliation: Rahm Emanuel.

But the political process has produced the lousy Senate bill, which only does a portion of the good this country needs

The political process has also produced a House bill that while not perfect is at least better than the Senate bill. So why should the Senate bill take precedence? Because Short Ride might pout if he doesn’t get his way?

One Question for the pass it now and we’ll fix it later crowd. I fyou can’t get 51 Senators to pass a parallel fix now when you have the leverage why would Progressive think that they can get the fix later with no leverage. Progressives would be fools to do that since it would doom them in the election. Two bills were passed why does the House need to become subservient to the Senate and put themselves at electorial risk especially when Obama has demonstrated twice (New Jersey and Massachussets) that he cannot get his supporters out when they turn and the Senate bill is what turned them off.

Break the filibuster

I listened to a few moments of his message while waiting in the doctor’s office. Disclaimer: I have Medicare, so I don’t have a dog in this particular fight, but a do have dogs in several other fights, namely imperial wars, civil liberties and the rule of law, the “bipartisan” efforts to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, among others.

I have never seen a President more afraid of a fight than this one. It’s shameful, disgusting.

There is an honorable way out of the hole the Democrats have dug for themselves. Instead of changing the subject, force the Republicans to stage their damned filibuster. Devote a month or so to meeting the filibuster challenge head on; the way a courageous party willing to fight for its constituents would. Make the Republicans force the Senate into a real dog and pony show. Break their filibuster the way the UAW broke the will of General Motors during the 1936-37 Flint Sit-Down Strike, or the way Reagan broke the Flight Controller’s union.

Believe me, if the Democrats would do that, it would turn the tables on the Republicans and it would be another generation before they could show their faces in public. Breaking the filibuster would expose it as an empty threat in future fights: There wouldn’t be a problem getting Wall Street reform through, getting climate change legislation passed, repealing DOMA and strengthening gay marriage, weakening the pro-life … The victory path would be lubricated by this one act, the head-on breaking of the Republican filibuster.

I am not knowledgeable about Senate rules and regulations, but I do know it would take a lot of hustle to get Reid to sign on to such a battle plan. Perhaps one or two of you folks in the comment space would like to weigh in on the Nuts and Bolts of such a battle plan. I would appreciate your views.

you are right about the public option. Except you ain’t offering any. You are the voice of fatalism and accepting the least offered (stinky Senate bill) in a situation where we can get a better deal through the reconciliation process.

Man, it is hard to see through the jello.

I have no confidence in the Senate to do anything now. They were jittery enough when the Democrats had 59 plus one rebellious independent. I honestly think that if the Dems pass this bill, overall public sentiment to further health care reform will warm, and in future years, even more reforms will be possible. But if this bill is killed…coming so close and then failing completely will be a huge, tremendous, massive discouragement from anyone trying it again. (To say nothing of the Supreme Court’s decision to mortally wound the democratic process.)

I don’t have the power to offer a public option–I’m not sure what you’re referring to there. I do think it would be a great addition, but I have no confidence in the Senate Democrats. With blue dogs like Nelson and Landrieu eager to act like Republicans, and others like them…I think we’ve gotten about as much as we can expect.

These are the people we’re counting on for global warming and Wall Street reform, too. I’m just trying to be realistic in my expectations.

Short Ride? Either I don’t get the joke, or I haven’t scanned all the posters’ names…

I just have no confidence in the Senate. The Dems have a stronger majority, and no filibuster threat, in the House of Reps: it’s a safer bet. That’s my reasoning. Nothing idealistic about it. With borderline Republicans like Nelson and Landrieu eager to defect on just about any major issue (I consider Lieberman a Republican already–I think Reid should strip him of his chairmanship and force him to switch parties. It’d seal his fate in Connecticut.)

I don’t know enough about the reconciliation process to say that all the differences between the two bills can be settled by means of it. I’ve read they can’t, but I don’t know. My line of thinking is “bird in the hand”–there’s at least a somewhat decent bill ready to go. Pass it and move on. When in life is anything as easy, or does it produce the glorious results, you imagined at the beginning? Not often.

No deal. If there are not 51 real democrats, for the people types; if it is really just another rip off American style; if it is just another getting them to do what they were supposed to be doing for the money they were getting while paying them billions for junk insurance and being mandated to do so; then, no deal.

You think you can wear people down here lawyer style, but the people here disagree with you. Your realism is fatalism. No deal.

“…honestly think that if the Dems pass this bill, overall public sentiment to further health care reform will warm, and in future years, even more reforms will be possible…“

I think the public has been promised this road too many times… and Congress never delivers.

e.g. from a OL poster:

“…There will be no fixing the Senate bill later. NAFTA has been around for how long now? And there still is no discussion of reforming or canceling it. Same goes for Medicare Part D, the Military Commissions Act, the USA PATRIOT Act, and other offenses. Nothing the corporatists passed ever gets fixed later. No, what happens is that the problems facing the country are institutionalized. Pass the Senate bill now, and not only do Dimocrats lose Congress, the American people are once again raped to appease corporate greed. Enough!…”

http://openleft.com/showQuickHit.do?quickHitId=13031

It sounds like you agree that the Senate bill is a POS that is not worth it. There is a House bill available.

And Short Ride is one of the nicknames for Lieberman based on his statement while trying to exempt Catholic hospitals from having to provide Plan B contraception to rape victims in the ER who request it: “In my state, another ER is just a short ride away”

Also the genesis of another nickname “Rape Gurney Joe”

Americans don’t want the Senate bill, they said that with Massachusetts, passing it will piss them off even more. Losses in November will be greater if the Senate bill is passed than if it is not. This is not rocket science.

A blanket “vote no or else” at this point is a horrible lobbying strategy. We should treat each house separately. In the house: Insist on a reconcilable “fix” in the house before voting yes, but do NOT wait for 51 votes in the senate. In the senate: support reconciliation, and support ending the filibuster once and for all.

Any congressmember who does the above is doing their best to get a good bill through reconciliation. (You can’t fix the Senate’s abortion language, but it’s not as bad as Stupak and anyway moving it left is politically a long shot. Everything else, you can fix to wherever you can get 217 votes for, which should include at least a medicare buy-in option over 50yo and the excise tax deal) And the above is totally incompatible with reaffirming a promise not to vote for the Senate bill under any circumstances.

I signed earlier petitions to kill the bill. But this one is a bridge too far for me. I finally agree with those who have been saying that FDL is part of the problem. Come back to sanity, it’s not very far.

In Massachusetts, they were voting between Brown and Coakley. Sure, disgust for the Senate bill was a factor, but passing the Senate bill and fixing it with reconciliation is a whole lot more feasible at this point than going back to the drawing board. If we play our cards right, we could even get something wonderful, like a universal medicare buy-in option, through reconciliation.

I know that the democrats have been excessively “flexible” and have compromised too many times. And that’s ENRAGING. But that’s still no reason to become bitterly calcified in our own strategy. Don’t kill the bill, fix it. It’s not rocket science.

No Public Option, No Mandate. If the Seate bill is dead, it’s ‘fixed’ to my satisfaction. Blame the cartoon in the WH.

What you suggest is not feasible, it’s the desperate last act of this little drama and smells like it. The House trusting the Senate to do jack with reconciliation after the Senate eviserated the House’s bill is not going to happen with Massachusetts hanging over them. Wake up, it’s over. The sooner we get over it the better. Goddam Obama’s a douche.

“If we play our cards right, we could even get something wonderful, like a universal medicare buy-in option, through reconciliation.”

Yeah, yeah, and a pony too.

You are leaving out that California also has a high risk pool (MRMIP) for people who can’t get insured, like a number of other states have. I would think that you’d would support there being some sort of lag in order to prevent the “free rider” problem that you say requires a mandate – the very things that you are complaining about with California would prevent people from waiting until they get sick to get insurance.

Responding to “break the filibuster”:

Unfortunately, in the 70s the Senate changed the rules, and a “Mr. Smith goes to Washington”-style filibuster is not how it works now. They just move on to other business. Even if you refused to move on, they would not have to actually talk, and only one of them would have to stick around to keep the filibuster alive, while 50 from your side would have to be there.

The way to end the filibuster is either to change the rule at the beginning of a session (a year from now, they just missed the chance this year); or for the VP to rule it unconstitutional (a de-facto supermajority requirement which is not just counter to the framers’ desires, but removes the VP’s right to break ties) and then 51 votes to table the objections. That’s the “nuclear option”, though backed by much stronger legal arguments than when the R’s proposed it for just judicial noms.

Sure, ponies are unlikely. But that doesn’t mean we don’t get what we can.

In the end, the question is, which is better, the status quo or the Senate bill. Not politically, actually. Mandates suck, but they would not kill over 40,000 a year, so I have to go with option B.

(Back of the envelope here. Lets say that 2/3 of the currently-uninsured dislike mandates more than they like subsidies. So that’s around 40 million. Let’s say they all suffer a loss of freedom equal to the potential fine of 4 thousand. So, 160 billion in lost freedom per year, at worst – my assumptions are so skewed that it’s probably under half that. Say that it results in insuring half of the currently-uninsured – but that includes many with pre-existing conditions, so you prevent more than half of the preventable deaths from lack of insurance. Say 32,000 deaths per year prevented. So if you value a human life at more than $2.5 – $5 million, then you have to agree that the Senate bill is better than nothing.)

Once you think it’s better than nothing, then sure, you can try to be tactical to get even more through reconciliation, but pledging to kill the bill is flat insane.

Actually if you read “Rule 22″ in its entirety (the rule that governs filibusters), the Majority Leader DOES have the discretion to force the opposition into the classic filibuster of Mr Smith… fame.

But since we’re talking about Harry Reid…

If the Senate bill goes through, then we don’t have reform in any sense of the word where implicitly we are talking about bettering lives for people.

We might as well pass a law saying everyone in the country has to give x% of their income per year to Aetna with no expectation of any service provision or product in return.

my math is based on the idea that you can’t be losing more than the potential fine. Don’t want to fund the insurance industry? OK, if that desire is worth the fine to you, then pay the fine and keep your freedom. If that desire is worth less than the fine, then don’t pay the fine, but you just showed that the money is more important than that value to you. (And if you don’t even have the money, then you’re almost certainly exempt.)

In the end, the question is, which is better, the status quo or the Senate bill.

So now the House of Representatives is not a factor other than to rubber stamp the Senate?

And how many people will continue to die because they are forced to purchase junk insurance that they still can’t afford to use? That is the reality of all the calculations that the Senate bill does. High deductibles, high co-pays will still exist for the folks who can’t afford things today. It enriches the insurance companies and does nothing to actually save costs for those who need it.

But after all, it’s better to save the insurance companies and force people to buy something useless than it is to help actual living, breathing voters and help THEIR bottom lines, right?

Insurance companies suck. They do not live up to their end of the bargain if they can possibly get away with it. But studies show that insurance still has some valye. Not having insurance kills tens of thousands a year; another way of saying that is that HAVING insurance saves nearly a million lives a year.

Single payer is miles better. But unless you think that a life is worth less than a few million dollars, or unless you’re willing to let people die to send the evil insurance companies a message, then the Senate bill is better than the status quo.

how many people will continue to die because they are forced to purchase junk insurance that they still can’t afford to use?

Fewer than die because they don’t have any insurance at all. Sorry, that’s just a fact.

I am NOT advocating for a rubber stamp. I am advocating for getting the best deal we can get. To me, it’s clear that that means the Senate bill plus a fix through reconciliation. At best, such a solution could be pretty good; at worst, it would be better than nothing.

I don’t think any supposed benefits in the bill outweigh the downsides either morally – a mandate w/o a public option, or politically – November. You can scribble on envelopes all you like but you cannot get past those two things. Who is going to take the political risk to push though Obama’s fiasco? Nobody sane, that’s for sure. Good riddance to this POS bill.

Think fixing it later is hard? Sure, you’re right. But starting again is even harder.

We are always the underdog, and we always have to keep fighting. But that means that we take our bitter-tasting, halfassed (or quarterassed) victories when we can get them.

Human lives are worth more than potential losses in November. Period. Politics should not enter into the basic questions here.

I don’t know how long you’ve been around paying attention to actions in DC, but I can’t think of a single piece of crappy legislation (and boy howdy there have been many of those) that has gotten “fixed” later in the last 30 years.

Please apprise me of any you can remember.

Fixing it later will not happen, we all know that, including you. BTW, I AM fighting, against this corporate scheme of the resident’s. What you’re wanting is for people like me to let ourselves get rolled again. Nope. Sorry, buddy.

: )

Public Option passes FIRST, then MAYBE we can talk about a mandate. Sound good?

But you’re conveniently missing the point. The Senate bill does nothing to help those folks receive affordable health care. It only forces them to purchase crappy “insurance” with high deductibles and co-pays such that they still can’t afford to actually use it.

How does that make them any better off than they are today without access to affordable care?

“Human lives are worth more than potential losses in November. Period.”

Not to politicians. Please.

For a lot of them, it lets them buy insurance which they CAN afford but which denied them for pre-existing conditions. For a number more, it gives them enough subsidies to afford quality insurance. From all of these groups, the bill saves lives.

Another fraction are exempt.

Yes, there are some people who would end up paying a fine, or buying some crap just to avoid the fine. Those people would be worse off than without the bill. But in my opinion, their money is worth less than the lives saved. The senate bill is the lesser evil.

And if it is fixed with reconciliation, it’s no evil at all. More on that in next response.

Botom line,
Obummer waved his finger at the middle class and told us we were overusing health Insurance with those damn cadillac plans and we will tax those to pay for this mandate to buy crappy insurance with severe underutilization(high co-pays and deductibles).

Public Option passes FIRST, then MAYBE we can talk about a mandate. Sound good?

That sounds wonderful. And that means not asking congress to kill the bill, but asking them to fix it first.

1. House passes public option (and other fixes)
2. Senate passes public option through reconciliation, with some trivial amendment just to send it back to the House.
3. House passes public option in Senate version, with a “self-executing provision” that simultaneously passes current bill.
5. Obama signs both bills.
6. Party!

Ha ha, like I trust Obama to pick and choose. No.

Public Option, closing the donut hole, and drug reimportation pass both houses and get signed by Obama. Then party.

There is little good in the Senate Bill.

If the House wants to ‘keep’ only the good, which there ISN’T any, and not the ‘bad’, it’s all bad, then the Senate won’t sign off on the House reply.

It SEEMS the House Progs are holding their ground for REAL reform, and Pelosi’s said she don’t have the votes for the Senate Bill as is (which is a piece of shit).

For two weeks or so now, Pelosi, her committee (wonder who’s on it? any Pup seen a list?) and Rhama/Obama have been holed up in a room with heavy dark maroon drapes, a crystal chandelier, and cushy purple covered hi back chairs around a large and expensive teak wood table with exotic foods and liquors at hand.

We have NO idea what they are doing . . . we only know Pelosi don’t have the votes to sign off on the piece of shit Senate bill.

We wait, we call, we support progs, we email and call and REBEL to WH, and Senate and House members who would fight for the piece of shit and block any semblance of real reform that might just fucking by god lead to REAL delivery of healthcare to our people.

I love this guy!!!

Norske, always a breath of fresh air, if at times marginally wrong and over sensitive of being modded . . . that’s one ya gotta let go of, hoss . . .

Flame On Norske!!!!

*G*

“It certainly looks as if the senate bill is dead meat- as is any further action on health reform for this presidency.”

Two separate things, not necessarily related or relevant to any final outcomes.

Wait, the House has to act first now, the ball is in their court.

Only one or two steps left to see what will happen . . .

If it’s sidecar recon, then there will be LOTS of new steps involved, but that would be a GOOD thing for HCR, and the people.

Now is NOT the time to be defeatist, now is the time to call and email the principals involved, WH, Congress.

There’s HUGE pressure on them, or they’d HAVE this done, and done for the corps.

Pressure, HUGE pressure, is on them all, we progs need to UP the pressure, daily.

Kwitting early is NOT an option if you want to win this thing, hoss.

The regulation and subsidies do NOT provide care, they mandate people pay for coverage they can’t afford.

And this is NOT the 20′s, or the 60′s, and Obama is NOT LBJ.

We are fighting a HUGE battle with HCR against a corporate monopoly that did not EXIST in the 20′s, and was NOT as strong as it is now, back in the 60′s.

This is the ultimate class struggle for our county, the last stand for a real democratic republic, or we will fall to the corporate facist control that is dictating a complete and utter dismantling of the middle class and any consideration of a safety net for the have nots.

This is it baby, engage or lose!

“Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.), co-chairman of the House Progressive Caucus — which spent months fighting the chamber’s centrists over a government-run “public option” — said that momentum was shifting toward a step-by-step strategy.

And Grijalva said he could support such a strategy “if we have tough insurance reform, if we deal with the donut hole, if we deal with prescription drugs, and if we deal at some point with an expansion of Medicare and Medicaid.”

Asked if that meant he could support a plan like Pascrell’s, which would not expand entitlement programs such as Medicare and Medicaid, Grijalva laughed and walked away.”

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/77459-house-dems-warming-to-scaled-back-healthcare-reform

Heh, I got the century mark!

(I’d rather have real HCR)

I’ve seen you post that a few times, and I gotta say, it’s the BEST snarky rejoinder to any sides of the aisles regarding HCR.

VERY snarky . . . I love it. *G*

*SPEWS*

Damn, another good keyboard gone.

Merlot, too.

;-)

You’ve become way too polite lately, I’m really concerned about you.

*G*

Ha ha, like I trust Obama to pick and choose. No.

Public Option, closing the donut hole, and drug reimportation pass both houses and get signed by Obama. Then party.

Huh? That’s exactly what I said. Or do you think Obama would actually veto the public option if it’s in a separate bill????

(except for drug reimportation and the donut hole, which really honestly are separate issues. “No mandate without public option” is a very moral stance, “No mandate without closing the donut hole” is gibberish – mixing under-65 apples with over-65 oranges. I support both these issues, and would help out with a whip count for including either one, but neither is a reason to kill the bill if the numbers aren’t there.)

You may be fighting, but you aren’t listening. I didn’t say fix it later, I said fix it FIRST. Then pass it. But yes, do pass it.

Pledging not to pass it is not the same as pledging not to pass it without the fixes already having passed through the Senate. I support the latter, the former is stupid.

BEST, ever, populist case made for we the people.

I used to recruit for a company, for Class A Drivers.

The plights of the American Trucker have become as dismal as the housing sitch and jobs in general, and in CA it was back in ’03 or so when it began to slide.

NAFTA enabled, of course, as did a few other items under BushCo, drivers from Mexico to not only OPERATE on USA roads and highways, but to haul cross country as long as they destinationed as a final point in Mexico.

Killed the wages, killed the regulations enforced, made our highways and roads much less safer, as Mexico does NOT require the level of skills to acquire a Class A license . . . . nothing bad about Mexican’s, and I’m not bashing, but the USA killed the trucking industry as Reagan killed the Flight Controller’s Union.

Teamsters have been sorely hurt since NAFTA, up thru BushCo, to now.

Keep on rollin, check yer mirrors every 15 seconds, and leave room for skids or slides . . Bless ya for your comment, I assume yer a woman, and I wont go on about the shit women truckers go thru in THAT industry, then or now . . . I salute, ya, ma’am.

When the true Obituary of Health “Reform” 2009 is written, the cause of death will not be recorded as Scott Brown, it will be Harry Reid.

Your formulations, given you believe you need a mandate to insure pre-existing, are pretty much a corporatist viewpoint to ensure profiteering and only provide the means and mechanisms with which to DENY care, start to finish, raise premiums, increase co pays and deductibles, putting any new insurance out of the reach of those subsidized or not.

Ensuring, in fact, NO one can afford it.

Worst. Ever. BS. I’ve ever heard on this subject.

Lemme know when you have the links and bill languages to prove what you are trying to posit, cuz it’s horseshit.

Paid by the word, or the comment?

What a great read! Thanks!

Where’d you get that and how?

Is dental your profession?

Ruck Fahm!!!!

In a complete bloggy way, apart from MY wife and any of YOUR personal commitments, I love you for this PW.

Damn yer good!

*G*

AHIP and HCAN exist to perpetuate donor submissions and to pay salaries, in order to propagate the policies their donors want to see implemented.

A pox on them both.

They do NOT serve the masses, in any way, shape or form.

It also wasted the Teamsters and Class A and other licensed truck drivers.

Geez Dan, and from some of your comments in this thread I was getting to appreciate your insights.

You pressure, NOW, the WH, Senate, and House.

You pressure them all, hard, they are FEELING the pressure, to back off the corporate buyouts.

And you call the progs and warn them, if they do wrong, they are on the primary list, too.

You pressure everyfuckingone at this stage of the game.

And your reply continues to attack, evade, misconstrue and attack.

You fail to address the reality at hand, and impose a template that’s full of shit upon it all.

Paid by word or comment? Check signed by Rahm?

Thanks for your response. Article I section 5 states that each house shall make its own rules, and I assume that decisions regarding those rules only require a simple majority of those present voting to affirm for a rule to take effect. Also, since each house gets to make its own rules, it seems to me that one session of either house cannot bind following sessions. And, since each house is empowered to make its own rules, it should also be empowered to modify those rules any time a simple majority decides the current rules serve anti-democratic goals. Also, I think, but I’m not sure, that a motion to change the rules would only require a simple majority in order to call the question to a vote. It seems to me, that even if that’s not the way the procedures are actually written, Biden, as the one who wields the gavel, can simply decide to call the vote. It might require calling in the Sargent at Arms to restore order, but … I’m sorry if some Republicans and short ride get their feelings hurt.

The hammer’s there, hanging on the wall, but never used, alas.

Great comment.

“I think he’s trying to get out ahead of the shit that’s about to hit him in the wake of MA last Tues by defining himself as a fighter and a populist among the people.”

I think so too. At least he’s talking like a fighter. Now let’s see if he ACTS like one back in Washington.

the other trouble is, the insurance companies went to the congress and senate and said, “we will give you pre-existing coverage, if you give us the 45,0000 uninsured. it was their plan, their idea. I heard obama twist it today, saying we have to mandate otherwise if we force the pre-existing on insurance, than people would not get it until they got sick. Funny, that is not how the insurance lobbyist put it to our bought and paid for elected officials.

If you think they can win, by selling us out to the insurance industry, you have got another thing coming. There is nothing wrong with demanding they do right by the people of this country and if they can’t do that, there is no reason for them to be in office. It is ridiculous to settle for something, just because it is better than nothing. it is like saying vote for a democrat because they are better than a republican. Why vote for such a worthless reason? We vote for people to represent us.

did you hear the part where he was saying it was very complicated to do anything in Washington. reminded me of when Bush said how “hard” it was. it must be very difficult making all those lobbyists happy, the ones he said he would not allow into his administration.

madma,

there is a logical explanation for mandate that is a bit counter-intuitive, and it requires a basic understanding of statistics. Suffice to say, the only way to lower everyone’s costs, it to get everyone into the pool

That said, the way it’s been implemented is execrable.
The medical loss ratios are a huge giveaway to insurance firms.
The loss of public option is inexcusable.
The abusive treatment of Single Payer is unconscionable.

Without those things being fixed the mandate can fuck off, seems to be the message of Massachusetts.

Jane this is not a demo repub thing. This is a system thing. The system creates much of the problems as much as 95% of the problems. This is a little known fact of the relative phenomenal world. Few in the world having knowledge of this reality.

as long as we blame and judge individuals and political parties and wall street and banks etc nothing will change for the better only further decline.

As long as Americans are in love with capitalism the decline will continue. Life is not a choice between capitalism and socialism just as it was not a choice between capitalism and communism like we were told in the 50′s 60′s and 70′s. We have not been able to create a perfect system, as we are not perfect humans.

But a start may be a social democracy, which we are not even close to a social democracy. We are more in line with corporate fascism the end result of decades of deregulated capitalism. I.e. Reagan’s and wall streets genius.

Capitalism will lead to every thing we are seeing now in America. It is doing its thing very well creating a society of haves and mostly have-nots. Stated another way a third world society. The capitalists have even taken control of the Supreme Court. Pure genius.

They already have control of congress and the white house and with this new Supreme Court decision it will do its thing the very best. Pure genius on the capitalist’s part and agenda.

The capitalists are so good they have convinced most Americans that capitalism and patriotism are synonyms.

Keep up the good work Jane love ya but think deeply about the capitalist system and how it impacts human greed and behavior.

Most Americans especially the media are even afraid to even suggest that capitalism is the problem it is that ingrained in our national paradigm. Stand out Jane and see the underlying reality of our self-destruction.

Van Hollen send me an email not to long ago. I told them until they support Single Payer don’t bother me.

The truth is some Congress members are not interested in doing the right thing unless it means more campaign money.

The mass media isn’t interested in telling the correct narrative on any meaningful subject.

What do we do?

You know, I don’t know. The “thing” that sweep Obama into the WH was told to pipe down and be quiet. We went back to leaving normal lives. We have to undo the machine that is Conservatism. From the people on your local school board pushing for more Charter Schools to the morons that populate my State Legislator here in the Golden State.

We need to rebuild this from the ground up. We out number the Conservatives. But I don’t think I’m cut out for public office, people on FDL complain I curse and such but things piss me off so much I just can’t say much else but the 7 things you can’t say on TV, especially when I know its a lie.

That’s what we need to do, we need to build up the “Farm System”. Republicans have done this, this is why they keep coming up with these people to run for State office all the time.

I do however think the Righ pushing to be Ultra Right will backfire on them. But we need to push Congress (not Obama) into doing the trans formative things to lock the door on Conservatives for at least 16 years if not longer.

The Supreme Court doesn’t help but we can still do some useful things to prevent them from spending mega millions, not sure what those are.

We need to stop with the polling and what not that doesn’t work. We need to primary the very people that hold up reforms. The Right is already looking to primary anybody not Ultra Right, so why can’t we primary a Dem to move back to the Left or be replaced.

I think the WH and Rahm don’t want an active and loud Liberal Base, we should automatically be doing just what they don’t want.

Agree 100%, the Mass Media doesn’t wanna say it. Some on the left aren’t ready to throw it overboard either, but that’s what most of Western Europe has and what we need is Social Democracy, where Capitalism is TIGHTLY REGULATED and you balance that by having a sweeping wide ranging social safety net.

Social Democracy rewards hard work and smart people, but it doesn’t penalize those that aren’t as smart or don’t have quite the work ethic.

That’s why you hard see any homeless in most EU countries. Don’t get me wrong I pay great attention to what happens in Europe because its not Utopia either, they have structural unfairness as well especially with immigrants, Muslims and the Roma.

But at least a majority have affordable housing (rent control), low cost health care, low cost access to higher education or job training, much better policies when it comes to climate change/energy consumption and public transportation.

Maybe one day we might be close to that, but it seem so long off that something drastic would have to happen before major shifts in governance is taken.

Health insurance is NOT health care.

Of course it isn’t. In real life, there’s only three kinds of insurance: the kind you don’t really need; the kind that saves your life or helps you avoid or resolve a debilitating condition; and the kind that lets you die or become debilitated. This bill will buy some of each. In other words, it will save some lives. It will also cost some money (20% of which will end up in insurance company shareholders’ or execs’ pockets). The bottom line question for me is, is that money worth those lives?

By the way, the focus on the insurance companies as the only villains is misguided. Their evil is the purest, almost unmixed with good; but it is not the largest evil in the system. The more-banal evil of the providers overusing their expensive equipment because it earns them more fees is probably larger.

This is on the how-to-end-the-filibuster subthread.

Read Senate Rule V and Senate Rule XXII. They purport to require 2/3 of the senate to change the rules. As you say, Biden wields the gavel, and if he called those rules unconstitutional and had 50 votes to back him up, they’re gone and nobody else can do anything about it. However, the better his argument is on why they’re unconstitutional, the easier it is to get 50 of the Spineless Party to back him up.

So in practice, you can change the rules any time, but it is significantly easier to do so at the start of a session (year).

WTH? I thought the whole point was to provide access to health care. That’s a pretty telling statement. Sounds like it really IS just all about the money.