If the House Democrats can’t find the votes for the Senate bill, and the Senate Democrats are too collectively ego-driven to support a reconciliation sidecar, then the only remaining strategy I can see for a significant increase in insurance coverage is to use reconciliation to just give most Americans who can’t afford health insurance access to coverage through Medicaid, Medicare, or SCHIP. This is simple, clean, easy to explain, and a more cost-effective way to expand coverage. Not going this route in the first place was a huge mistake.
The Senate bill expanded insurance to 15 million Americans by increasing Medicaid eligibility for every American to 133% of the federal poverty line (FPL), and by maintaining the SCHIP program. That represented $395 billion of the total cost of the bill. The Kaiser Family Foundation concluded that roughly 30 million of the uninsured in this country are below 200% of the FPL. A recent poll by them also found that when people were told the bill would expand Medicaid to every family making less than $29,000 a year, 62% of voters said that made them more supportive of the bill, while only 22% said they were less supportive.
Expanding Medicaid to everyone below 215% of the FPL, and expanding SCHIP coverage to all uninsured children, should give roughly 30 million more Americans insurance for a cost of just under $800 billion, which is less than the Senate bill.
The Medicaid expansion could be structured to also work as a de facto extreme catastrophic insurance policy for people over 215% FPL. You could set it up so that if anyone suffered from a major medical emergency, which cost so much it effectively made their yearly income below 215% FPL, they would, at that point, be covered by Medicaid. This would effectively put an end to medical bankruptcy in this country.
Early Medicare buy-in could be added for people without insurance who are between 47-65. This is the group who, even if they have money, tend to have the toughest time finding affordable, quality health insurance.
Expanding Medicaid, Medicare, and SCHIP are all doable under reconciliation. A bill that does these three things would only need a simple majority in the Senate, would be cheaper than the current Senate bill, and probably be no more than 30 pages long. This strategy of simply giving people who can’t afford insurance coverage through Medicaid and Medicare is extremely easy to explain. Also, these public programs are already covered under the Hyde amendment, so there shouldn’t be objections from anti-choice Democrats like Bart Stupak. I don’t doubt for a second that a 30-page bill that simply gave those without insurance Medicaid would be dramatically more popular than the current Senate bill.
Don’t buy the lie that passing the Senate bill “as is” in the House is the only option. The Senate can adopt a reconciliation sidecar strategy, or they can do a significant coverage expansion even more cost effectively by using a reconciliation measure for a whole new bill. The problem is not reluctant House members or Senate rules. The problem is the Democratic senators themselves.




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How about also expanding Medicare with a buy-in?
Uninsured and age>50 buy-in right now. In 2-3 years, everybody (giving time for employers, unions to rework their benefit plans).
Yes. These work for consumers.
The objective of HCR was to ensure that insurance companies, pharma, and medical providers did not take hits.
With your proposal, there is no lifeline thrown to the insurance companies who have a dying business model. No fix for the insurance companies, no money to our politicos for “fixing heath care”.
fuck the insurance companies
helping people should not be a for-profit business sector
I don’t think it’s just ego. Follow the money.
Medicare buy-in is the simplest way to get this done. Simple amendment to expand age eligibility.
Something has definitely happened since obama got elected. all the senate seems totally to disregard the voters. What did obama put in the water?
Were Obama President one hundred years ago, the buggy-whip manufactureres would have been assured that come hell, high water, or the motor car, they were too big to be banished to the dustbin of history. And everybody would have been required to buy buggy whips.
Perhaps the insurance companies could sell whips?
To be used for [Edited by Mod. You know better] purposes only, of course … until morale improves.
;~DW
Dear Mod.
I have never advocated violence of any kind.
You must know that.
I try not to be unpleasant, and do not engage in attacking or belittling
others.
I should like to imagine that I mostly succedd in that endeavor.
If we are not even allowed some gentle humor, which reflects the larger reality we are all facing, then how may we get to the truth of things.
You may not feel a daily assault upon reason, tolerance and understanding.
However I do.
And I also see the language, which I dearly love, being trashed and twisted twenty-four seven.
A wee bit of subtle, and precise nuance cannot be amiss, given the perilous nature of our nattion’s state of being.
No doubt you believe I’m trying to slip something past you, I am not.
I respect you and what you do, however I expect that respect to be mutual and understood as the operating principle behind this blog.
DW
[Mod Note: You have been around FDL long enough that even joking about anything violence related is not allowed. It is not a matter of respect or lack thereof]
Therefore such terms as flogging a dead horse, or pounding home an idea are acceptable?
But I mustn’t suggest that the people of America are being beaten to a pulp?
And of course, to suggest ficticious persons cannot be executed or jailed is a toss-up because corporations are “people” too?
Just to clarify, the word I used was in reference to what is happening to all of us, it is what is being done to us, and it was not used nor advocated to be used on those who are actually engaged in the destruction.
Fine post, by the way, Jon.
The Democratic Senators are merely suffering from acute ergasiophobia, they are simply going to have to work on it.
Yet, I am convinced that Rahm’s dactylograms (as well as Obama’s) are to be found at the scene, as well.
And the Supreme’s push toward kakistocracy cannot help matters, as the Senator’s nescience regarding what it all means for them and their pocketbooks, must be, at least, distracting.
DW
Cigna sez: “Where’s my Pony??? I want my Ponyyyyyyyy!!!!”
The PEOPLE don’t give a flying fuck about the health Ins. Industry and Congress shouldn’t either. If they persist trying to turn this so called Reform into another Profit center for these companies then they should expect to lose and lose badly this fall. The ONLY reason Gopers are winning right now is because our system lacks any real choice to voice your disgust. if we had a Real democracy and not this phony duoply which in reality is really just a large Corporatist party with two wings then people might be able to actually register a protest. Scott brown won only because people are pissed off big time they they voted for Change and got more of the same or worse. When u try and bait and switch people and they aren’t going for it STOP!
No pony. Will your share of 30 Million subscribers, do, you pretty little corporation you?
Will that give your CEO enough bonus money until he retires rich?
What do you believe the senate bill did? Much for the Insurance, pharma & provider industries. Not so much for consumers.
Why? Because the senate is 97% bought, that’s why.
Cigna sez:
*snif*
*shrug*
“How rich? Can I still deny coverage when they need it?”
“Please?”
This is a sensible strategy. But it won’t happen.
This would eliminate the ability to put the uninsured on the rolls of the private insurance companies, and the Dems don’t want to do that to lose all the campaign cash those companies bring them.
It’d be nice to get this done, but it won’t happen.
Democrats continue to highlight whose side they’re on with their actions.
And yes, I know some number of you will tell me ‘You’re crazy, they’re not all corporatists, they’re just trying to accomplish WHAT THEY CAN’, and you’re welcome to attempt to provide excuses and justify their behavior, but the proof is in the pudding.
Defend what they do if it’s good for you, not what they say they’ll do or what they say they CAN’T do.
Synoia, who are the three senators who have not yet been bought?
Should we place a bid before it is too late?
;~DW
Sorry, but everyone is ignoring a huge problem…If you are poor, you can get Medicaid, if you are a senior, you can get Medicare. A big glut of folks who would not be helped by this are the lower middle class (including self employed types.) I agree with the Republicans (whaaa?!!!) in at least one way: enabling the purchase of insurance across state lines. A GHI policy for an individual in NY is $800/mo, the same kind of policy in Florida is under $300. So your choice becomes: pay your bills responsibly, and since there is nothing left, do not get insurance. The death of the public option, or some way to force insurance companies to provide affordable plan, was the death of my “hope.” They are all a bunch of clowns who now (since the Supreme Court’s Supremely Stupid decision) will live in fear of being out bought by a different scumbag who more closely pulls the corporate line. Disgusting. And Obama played right into it. I am done voting. It does no good. Incidentally, had the bigots (Shirley Huntley) and Bible thumpers (Ruben Diaz) in the New York State Senate done the right thing, I would have been eligable for insurance on through my partners job. So, government does nothing to help me, and in fact actively works against my pursuit of hapiness in every way with the exception of taking my tax dollars, which it seems to do with remarkable efficiency.
So what would the Medicaid reimbursements look like? Many doctors won’t take Medicaid patients because they are too low.
House liberals should just write up a package of amendments to the Senate bill, vote it out of the House and send it over to the Senate with the message, “pass these fixes and we’ll pass your shitty bill.”
Put the ball back in the Senates court.
I would really like to know who the ten Democratic Senators that are willing to kill health care are…
Put the ball back in their court Madam Speaker…
Jon, let’s see if Jason and BT get behind your proposal passionately.
They are extremely concerned with the fate of the uninsured, and your proposal would do wonders to prevent the deaths of thousands.
Your idea may not be imperfect, but hopefully it’s good enough for them.
Short, sweet and to the point. Would be wonderful if your idea Jon would actually be heard and even partially acted upon.
Alas, I folding my tent, and let you guys go for it. Your smarter and have lots more energy. I’ll help financially.
And maybe you will break through the ice, so all can see clear skies ahead. Here’s hoping.
Sorry to tell you, but being able to purchase across state lines doesn’t do you any good, either. If you buy a policy from a company based in Arizona, then the laws governing it IN ARIZONA apply to you. Also, if you have any kind of problem with it, you have to complain through Arizona. You, as a New Yorker, have no recourse except to trust some other state to address your problem.
Also, buying across state lines would just enable them to race to the bottom to move their headquarters to states where the regulations are the most lax.
This is the problem with buying across state lines.
Medicaid will never be accepted by all doctors.
Some doctors only like to deal with other rich people.
But if Medicaid and Medicare were expanded as Jon proposes, more stuck up porsche driving doctors will see their business drop, and they will accept more Medicaid/Medicare patients as a result.
Jon, also, throw some Medicaid/Medicare drug negotiating power into your proposal, as well as small financial incentives to patients who choose generic versions of their medications.
Most of the time Medicaid doctors don’t take Medicaid because the program, at least in my state, has become more and more paranoid about approving things and functions a lot more like private insurance in trying to avoid paying for claims (because of budget cuts, etc.)
The reimbursement rate may be lower, but more doctors are having to put in more staff just to argue with Medicaid over approval like they do with private insurance, and many simply don’t want to.
“If you are poor, you can get Medicaid, if you are a senior, you can get Medicare.”
Is 101% of the Federal Poverty Level not poor?
Are such people able to afford health care?
Sounds like Bush Inc. meddling/harassment, trying to discredit a good government program.
“then the only remaining strategy I can see for a significant increase in insurance coverage is to use reconciliation to just give most Americans who can’t afford health insurance access to coverage through Medicaid, Medicare, or SCHIP.”
this assumes that the purpose of HCR was to provide health care, and not create massive new profits for the insurance rackets and the st.
Of course, the Republicans and conservatives don’t EVER want a good government program, with maybe the exception of something involving national defense, it flies in the face of all that Reaganite ‘government bad’ mythology they live by.
My curiosity is why Democrats don’t want a good program, either. Or at least why they won’t fight for them.
The problem with this is that it would act just like with credit cards today. Do you really want the health insurance equivalent of credit cards issued from North Dakota or Delaware to guide your purchase of health insurance? The insurance companies would all pick the state with the absolute least amount of controls and sell from there, blocking the states that try to set things up to protect their citizens.
So please re-think your area of agreement with the Republicans unless you want the insurance companies selling more crap for more money with less control which is what would happen if this noise went forward.
Well stated JW. Glad you show up here at FDL.
Expanded Medicare/Medicaid was where the start line should have been last spring 2009. Two solid programs that are already proven and have positive American decades old image of being effective.
Barack Obama and his WH really got this wrong. As for the D Party they need new leadership. Pelosi,Reid and Kaine should step down. Rahm Emanuel needs to be dismissed.
The MA election and Scott Brown’s winning it was a bow shot.
2010 mid-term elections will be a spread of torpedoes if D Party stays on same course.
Doing expanded Medicare/Medicaid good policy to shape the politics around.
D Party needs to get off Dumb Street and get on Smart Ave.
Thats not true at all. not even close. most poor people are not allowed to access medicare or medicaid. only poor people with dependant children with virtually NO income outside of public assistance. poor single adults with no children do NOT get anything. working poor WITH children who do not meet the ABSOLUTE poverty requirement, do not get healthcare.
Great post. It’s quite correct, and reminds of this.
Of course, on the ground, there’s no reason why we shouldn’t just be pushing for Medicare for All. But as a short term tactic for legislators during this session I think your proposal is an excellent idea.
Am I the only stupid person still watching Chris Matthews or did someone else see him come unglued trashing Alan Grayson? He needs medication.
I just have to say this. This is the proposal (well, with a medicare buy-in) that I – and lots of others – have advocated from the beginning. Limiting the proposal to only medicaid might be enough to get Senators on board. ANd it would undoubtedly be a good thing. But there still are sticky funding issues, and that means taxes and who bears the brunt of it. I opt for the wealthy, of course, since I believe that the largest beneficiaries of our political-economy ought to bear the greatest burden. And including the Medicare buy-in is optimal, since expanding on these two existing programs represents real progress towards a single payer, or at least government run, system.
One little problem: Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad
He is on record opposing Medicaid expansion beyond 133% FPL. Hard to see how a significant Medicaid expansion gets through his committee.
It really is the only rational way to do it. Of course service fees,premiums and different expectations of pharmaceutical corps etc have to be adjusted. But the whole framework is there to allow incremental expansion until we are all covered.
Oops. I forgot that Peterson dude with all the money to spend and the WaPO to detroy what we have. Never mind
And Jon, just read your comment that expanding these programs would be more popular than the Senate bill. No doubt about it. There was overwhelming support for a medicare buy-in in October. Even Gop voters liked it. You’re right. But, as you know, it doesn’t advance the corporate agenda, so it probably won’t be addressed in the Senate.
That’s the tragedy, isn’t it?
Thanks Jon — this is the most reasonable proposal yet. I will recommend it to both of my Senators, and suggest as well that if they don’t want to do anything about health care, the people can always find new Senators.
I agree with asdf. The stumbling block in health care is “insurance” and the greedy AHs who prey on people and their fears. America needs and deserves health C.A.R.E. not I.N.S.U.R.A.N.S.E. .
The argument in this article proves how complicated the whole issue of heath in America has become. It’s a economic/political football that does not deserve to be in the middle of this sordid process. Folks, there are some aspects of human existence that is above the crassness of “market forces”, and human health is certainly one of them.
Common sense does not rule in America, economic sense rules, and it aught not be that way. Every civilized country on planet Earth has the good sense to know that the health of their people also means the health of their economies, so they make sure that all of their citizens have access to health care. What in the hell is so hard to understand about this truth?
The only humane, and costly way to meet our health needs is by means of single payer or Medicare for All. Who can argue that it is better to be “cured” that to be prevented from being ill in the first place? Prevention is the key to better health and lower costs – period. Yet, there are those who will argue against change to a sane health care policy because some will be hurt economically by the change. But, I ask you this, have not millions of Americans already been hurt by the economic policies of the past 30 years?
I know, and I think most of us suspect that single payer is inevitable because the insurance, for profit driven system will eventually price itself out of existence. All the scrambling, deal making in Congress right now is about how to stall the inevitable. Instead of working to make the switch, which is going to happen anyway, we are destroying the nation and society by allowing greed to run rampant in Washington. It’s time to stop taking things that are simple and making them complicated.
Interesting Kaiser study, Jon. I have my girls (ages 21 and 23) on a catastrophic plan through Kaiser since I retired. $85 per month each with a $2700 deductible. They get yearly check-ups.
It’s the best I can do. They may qualify for medicaid if this goes through. I like the ideas you presented, and cannot imagine why any true dem legislator wouldn’t approve.
Edit: There was no lapse in coverage, and no pre-existing conditions, fortunately.
My curiosity is why Democrats don’t want a good program, either. Or at least why they won’t fight for them.
Isn’t it a weakest link thing? How hard can you pull when you’re relying on Lieberman, Nelson, Landrieu, Baucus, etc.?
While I agree with your criticisms of interstate insurance competition leading to a race to the bottom, it’s not correct to say that a purchaser in New York would be forced into court in some other state. It’s well-accepted law that anyone entering into a contract in another state can expect to be sued in that state. A New Yorker could still sue in New York, with the court applying Arizona law. The question could become interesting if Arizona let insurance companies include a clause with mandatory jurisdiction/arbitration in Arizona… and whether federal law or New York would accept such a provision as a matter of public policy.
Any provision for interstate competition would need a LOT of consumer protections, including state opt-outs, interstate pacts, and provisions against insurers clustering in weak regulation states. And nothing you could achieve by interstate competition wouldn’t be better addressed through antitrust laws and a public option competitor.
To be quite honest, Landrieu, Baucus, Nelson, and Lieberman are just the fall guys. The Democrats have a vibrant majority in both sides and more than enough political power and political potential to massacre these people if they chose. They’re not doing so.
Had Obama, ala LBJ, said ‘Hey Joe, you’re fully welcome to not vote for our liberal Medicare for all bill, but I hope you haven’t gotten too cozy with those committee chairmanships or the idea of being re-elected. And all your amendments will probably be in serious jeopardy in future, too…’
The Democrats AREN’T playing these hardball tactics when they really have every opportunity to and the results for them electorally would be vast. So I really have to conclude that it’s more about not REALLY WANTING to get these policies through than it is a lack of ability.
1. Al Franken
2. John Cornyn
and that stand in Senator from MA, who will be out when Scot Brown is certified.
Indeed, I think your assessment is entirely fair. But the people advocating the interstate insurance thing ARE NOT ADVOCATING for those same consumer protections and regulations and mechanisms to address abuse or problems.
And without those provisos, it’s just another policy stacked entirely in favor of the insurers. And we don’t need any more of that.
Does anyone care about the middle class? Between the Senate looking out for the rich and the House for the extremely poor, what of hard-pressed working people? People who have expensive health insurance now, that they bargain for (explicitly or implicitly) in exchange for wages they’d otherwise earn?
Just expanding Medicaid without real reform that lowers health care costs makes this a welfare bill. It’ll eventually be gutted when the conservatives get some leverage over the budget process again. I just don’t see how a welfare bill that aids only the poorest will really sell with the voters in a mid-term election year. I think you’d see a continuing middle class backlash.
“Not going this route in the first place was a huge mistake.”
You are always a steady and informative voice Mr. Walker. Thank you.
It baffles the mind as to why this common sense approach never saw the light of day. Corruption? Stupidity?
All the spin has me spinning. I don’t know what to believe anymore. How can the public possibly make informed decisions under these conditions?
I dislike the “public option only for the poor strategy”. If the public option works, and is available, it should be available to anyone. Why is it that I should be required to pay through the nose for a private insurance policy just because I am fortunately employed above the poverty level? Does being employed above that level suddenly make me fair game for the economic rapists referred to as “the health insurance industry”? Why should a public competitor to the insurance racket be only available to a few? I want it too!
And IIRC, post election, didn’t Obama nip all the anti-Lieberman sentiment brewing in the Senate by saying he was a welcome addition to the caucus? I wonder how Obama feels that now?
Why is it that I should be required to pay through the nose for a private insurance policy just because I am fortunately employed above the poverty level?
Think of it long term. In the short term, you’re no worse off, lots of others are better off, and the wealthy take a fractional hit on their income. In the long term, everybody is fairly taxed for cheaper and better care than they could get under the current system. Or look at it this way: the GOP won’t give you universal health care, only Dems can do that. But even with 60 Senate votes and the WH, the Dems can’t even get you a public option. The best, and maybe only, way to get from here to there is by expanding what we already have.
And someone really has to explain to me how Medicare for the younger baby boomers is a fiscally sound idea. I suppose if the buy-in was an enormous lump sum payment equal to their expected contributions to the trust fund up to age 65, it would make sense. But since that won’t happen and the unfunded Medicare liability is crazy overwhelming already, it doesn’t make any sense. Somehow I think we’d just end up bankrupting America at an accelerated rate.
So instead of that fiscally-impossible idea, why not have a public program that charges normal insurance premiums and pays Medicare reimbursement rates to providers? I’d call it something like a “public option”…
You’re absolutely right. I guess my opinion was predicated on a “least best” solution. Yours would be the “most best” solution. Did that make sense?
In other words, I’m a medicare for all person. Why reinvent the wheel? All the policy stuff is a little over my head and I’m sure there are alternatives that may be superior but Medicare for all is very easy for me to understand. I think the Dems might benefit from dumbing the whole thing down a bit.
We should all have access to a national healthcare pool so our money can be used to bargain for cheaper prices. Doesn’t sound like a lot to ask from people who supposedly represent our interests.
I mean, it’s like this: saying that the public option should only be available to the poor is basically saying that the first priority of the “reform” legislation is protect the profits and well-being of health insurance companies. Given that lobbying, wining and dining, and campaign donations are a way of buying legislation from officials, it looks like the health insurance cartel bought themselves a health insurance policy for their (somewhat predatory and famously inefficient) business model.
So far, this is the only public option likely to emerge – the insurance policy that the cartel bought for itself from the government.
Again: if the public option works for the poorest, and saves money for the public in general, and functions efficiently and well … then it will work for the middle class, and save money for the public in general, and function efficiently and well.
I shouldn’t be forced by law to pay tribute to Aetna just because I am not completely poor.
What is objectively happening is the health insurance and pharmaceutical cartels, which are well-connected, deep-pocketed corporations topped by some of the richest members of society, have bought themselves legislation that forces me to buy their products compulsorily, on pain of government retribution against me if I don’t.
That, friends, is tyranny.
When your government is so corrupt that rich people can buy laws from the officials that force you to give your money to the rich people, on their terms, on pain of government enforcement … your government has crossed the line into a Second World regime and you have every reason to be horribly angry about this, and to not be browbeaten into offering your consent and support.
We are in no conceivable way “better off” by having a law requiring us to pay tribute to Aetna. Yes, they succeeded in buying our government officials. They are victorious in their war on the middle class. But we are not “better off” for this.
What is being offered to us is the chance to accept being economically raped in a country where the rich rule in their own interests.
I’m imagining a “send the poor back to the emergency room” campaign. I can’t see how it would sell like hotcakes in an era when the US middle class is fast disappearing.
There is such a thing as a political time clock.
The first half ends in November and we don’t want to be losing at halftime.
If we pass a bypartisan hybrid, first step approach to Health Care Reform, then progressives will fare well in the mid-term elections.
And it’s the right thing to do.
(MODNOTE: it is not necessary to include your email in comments — removed to prevent automated spambots)
Not to worry, by the time Larry, Tim and Obama are through with their makeover of America program, the whole of the middle class will have become eligible for Medicaid ‘welfare’.
Think of it long term. In the short term, you’re no worse off, lots of others are better off, and the wealthy take a fractional hit on their income. In the long term, everybody is fairly taxed for cheaper and better insurance than they could get under the current system.
Typo fixed. Coverage does not equal care. No matter how many times the “pass any bill” crowd says so.
Plus, even if “lots of others” will be better off, an even greater number will be worse off. So it’s not really a compelling argument.
And if the Democrats cannot get me the public option they were swept into power promising, despite no real obstacle in terms of having majority control, then the Democrats do not effectively represent me and do not need my vote, my money, my energy, or my kind words.
They have a choice: they can represent the health insurance and pharmaceutical cartels, or they can represent me. And if they don’t represent me, then they can suffer my contempt.
And I caucused for that SOB in the primary. I have a history of donations, primary votes, engaging with people around me in my social circle and community on these issues … the Democrats want to call me their “base”.
Well, they need to start representing me. I am sick of being the doormat. They can’t shit where they eat. [Insert mad-as-hell-and-not-going-to-take-it-anymore metaphor of choice].
Last time a ‘welfare’ program was gutted was on Clinton’s watch.
Exactly.
If they can pass a public option for the poor, then they can pass a public option for everyone.
Two weeks ago we were all hearing that they couldn’t pass a public anything because of a mythical 60-vote requirement. Now that this “requirement” is no longer meetable, but the national figures atop the Democratic Party need for political convenience to pass a bill nonetheless, that “requirement” has been scrapped and mutterings of “reconciliation” have been heard. The immediate demand (file this under “stampeding the Congress”) is “pass the senate bill now! it’s what must be done!” but the truth is that this wretched political faction could have the legislation it promised us during the last election year.
The goon squad is simply trying to figure out how to protect their real constituency in the issue – their friends and sponsors in the health insurance and pharmaceutical cartels – while effectively lying to their base and the broad public about what it is that they are really up to. The approach to that task continues to be creating straw-man obstacles to real reform and then capitulating publicly to them.
They’re arguing against extending unemployment insurance, so I wouldn’t put it past them.
“mad-as-hell-and-not-going-to-take-it-anymore”
That would be a great campaign slogan for a real progressive to use to challenge one of these corporate Dems. in a primary.
Well, first of all, even poor people in America generally perceive themselves as middle class. It will take a very long time for peoples’ psychology to catch up with economic reality.
As to selling budget cuts, that’s easy! Big Government, spending freeze, lower taxes, etc. You never have to make a big deal about what your cutting. Medicaid will be sliced and diced in the backroom and it’ll be take it or leave in a GOP/Blue Dog majority House (especially if the GOP regains the reigns).
Or even more likely, they’ll leave Medicaid expanded to 150% FPL and simply eliminate the federal funding for it, shifting the burden to the states. But opposing unfunded mandates, they’d let the states opt-out. It would take them no time at all to do all this.
I mean, what’s worse, not passing a bill and being shamed, or kicking your primary constituency in the Stupak?
Time to give it up.
The Dems failed. They fail 95% of the time and will continue to fail.
It’s not because they’re weak, stupid, or spineless. On the contrary, they’re sharks.
They fail becasue the Dems have a big fat quandry on their hands.
Doing the work of Wall St and corporate interests while publicly pretending to do the will of the people. There’s no way for them to reconcile the two. They don’t seem to mind all that much if they fail us over and over, so long as they can keep stringing us along.
The sooner Democratic supporters get this through their heads, the faster they’ll start demanding respect and their attention by voting against any Dem that casts a vote against the people. There is no other way. If a Repub wins the seat, so be it. All Dems should be fired for voting against us, no more excuses. The Dem party moves further and further to the Right when in power, so what’s the big deal of a few more Repubs slither around for a while.
Congress has shit on the American people. They show us nothing but contempt and cruelty. They treat us like morons, the POS health reform being a perfect example. I mean the hubris of forcing people already struggling to survive to buy a shit product from a private corporation and then taxing it? Or using the IRS as a collection agency for private corporations? It takes a bunch of sociopaths to shamelessly present this piece of crap to actual human beings and tell them it’s good. Half of our budget goes to the crime syndicate called the Pentagon, and Congress wants to nickel and dime us over about life and death. If this doesn’t tell you they look at us like expendable ATM’s, then you deserve everything they’re dishing out.
They sent our jobs overseas, send our kids off to die, turn a blind eye away from banks that continue to throwing families into the street, and coddle insurance companies that refuse to treat our pain. It’s totally abusive and frankly, I’m not gonna be a Helot for a bunch of power mad, money grubbing, vote sellers.
I’m going to be as merciless and depraved as they’ve been to us for the last twenty years. They’re set for life. I can’t say that about the shattered lives left in their wake since they lost their moral compass and quietly aligned with Republicans. Bush didn’t get his way 98% of the time without the Democrats including the confirmations of Justice Roberts and Alito. The Dems don’t deserve a shred of my loyalty and I don’t believe a word they say anymore (excluding Kucinich.)
This group has gotta go if we’re to survive with some dignity.
Isn’t there a problem that Medicaid requires you to exhaust your personal resources?
Yep.
Between Clinton and Obama now, it looks like the Democrats are quite effective at accomplishing the domestic economic and social programs that big business special interests and the richest members of society really want. Clinton killed welfare, increasing poverty. Obama is going to force us to give our money to health insurance and pharmaceutical corporations, on their terms.
I think it’s time for y’all to start tossing Senate incumbents, regardless of party affiliation.
That comment deserves to make the big time, marcos, it has impact and wit.
Obama ought to try to get you on his side, because otherwise, he’ll be toasted and roasted by your one-liners.
;~DW
Forget healthcare reform – it’s not going to happen.
Your side is only now seriously considering the political fallout and beginning to make overtones to let this sit for a while. Obama is being mauled publicy by his own side on nearly every issue he tries to address – banking reform today he was creamed – unemployment up again this month – failure at COP15 – Boxer says today no Cap & Tax this year – his MSM props are showing signs of crumbling – it is starting to look like the Chicken Little song for the guy
I just came off Hot Air’s post discussing Newt’s suggestion today that Republicans should work with the Dems and pass a bipartisan agreement, in the minimum to at least get sensible reform started
You know what the problem is? Each party is concerned about who will get the credit for this! Can you believe this bullshit!
Oh, and I turn 65 today, so you know where I am with regards to ObamaCare
It certainly captures the mood of the public at this point.
I may not agree with for example the teabaggers on the technical understanding of lots of things the Democrats are doing, but I can viscerally feel the anger at this health care bill. It’s not a government takeover …
… or maybe it is a government takeover?
In the sense that the government is taking over the health care system, just in the way that the health insurance and pharma cartels want!
From the standpoint of the constituency: kicking us in the Stupak is far worse.
(That is, if we continue to play the game of pretending that any part of the general public – let alone the “base” – is actually the Democrats’ constituency. They seem to serve deep-pocketed, nefarious, corporate special interests, be they bankers or insurance executives.)
You’re really bumming me out.
This has all turned into one big soap opera. Unfortunately, we know what will happen in advance and have to sit there and live through it. It’s like living a slow-motion train wreck. The Dems crossed a line with their handling of Health Care. The ploy was obvious. They can’t undo that no matter how far left they turn. I don’t even watch Obama when he speaks any more. Why would you? The cognitive dissonance must be painful.
Never mind that sending the poor back to the emergency rooms will cost more money in the end?
Single payer is the only strong, viable option for the Democrats.
But they won’t use it. They refuse to consider it. They won’t fight for it.
AND THAT IS WHY THEY WILL BE MASSACRED come election time.
How about if Obama finds a way to come over to our side? It takes a village, as they say.
I thought we voted against an individual mandate and for reproductive choice.
What a novel idea! Allow people who dont have coverage to have access to or public healthcare systems. Why didnt the dems think of this? Oh, they did but they threw the idea under the bus when they were making backroom deals with the insurance and rx companies. Expanding coverage to people who dont have coveage to public healthcare (formerly known as public option) just might work, and if it does you can offer people who do have employer sponsored coverage the ability to opt in if they prefer.
” … Congress has shit on the American people. They sent our jobs overseas, send our kids off to die, turn a blind eye away from banks that continue to throwing families into the street, and coddle insurance companies that refuse to treat our pain. It’s totally abusive and frankly, I’m not gonna be a Helot for a bunch of power mad, money grubbing, vote sellers …”
Fucking well put!!
I agree! It’s time for the electoral equivalent of pitchforks and torches!
A two-liner of equal merit, marcos.
You are on a roll.
Seriously.
Maybe Obama could follow the crumbs he has so casually tossed in our direction?
Dude, what country are you living in?
It already costs them more to send people to the emergency room, and the poor are denigrated for it, because they are too lazy to buy insurance, thus costing all good ‘murcans more in tax dollars that could be better spent buying that new SUV, or bigger boobs for the missus.
Think about who controls the media, think about the GOP butt-gas calliope, and the spineless democrats. How hard would it be? It would be simple.
I guess I’m confused. I’m not saying the senate bill is the way to go. I’m saying that a medicaid expansion/medicare buy-in is the way to go. I was responding to your comment that you opposed a “public option for the poor only” plan by saying that in the short term things get better, and in the long term things can get best. The plan I was talking about, i.e., Jon Walker’s plan, don’t require us to pay tribute to Aetna.
Probably the majority of the country would be open to putting their power to the test and reminding their critters that payback is a bitch.
Kiss off Barbara Boxer and Jane Harman – Hello whoever and Marcy Winograd, for me.
Coverage does not equal care. No matter how many times the “pass any bill” crowd says so.
If you think I’m talking about the Senate bill here, then there is some confusion. I was talking about expanding medicare/medicaid. If you think that these two programs still amount to ‘coverage but not care’, then again, there is confusion, but this time it is about what you mean here.
Nobody cares about this just yet, as you’ve pointed out — but when the “deficit hawks” start the “entitlement reform” proceedings, the failure of America to give its poor anything but emergency care will start to haunt it. Among other things. Paying for the great game of Duck Duck Goose in Afghanistan will also come up.
Apologies, if you meant expanding medicare/aid then, yes, it would expand care.
Of course, many doctors are turning down medicare patients, and in my state Medicaid patients are treated like lepers, and can be booted from a treatment regimen for something as simple as missing an appointment, so it (medicaid expansion) cannot be the only good thing in the bill, or it won’t be worth the cost.
So when do we launch the Campaign to Replace America’s Senate?
We really ought to just fight for single-payer for all. Leaves the delivery systems intact as private institutions, but streamlines the payment process and eliminates most if not all of the problems of the current mish-mash of insurances.
Medicaid expansion is a interesting thought but it won’t fly in today’s populist/teaparty climate. Medicaid is synonomous with “poor minorities”…..The dirty secret is that it’s white people who are down on Obama after 1 year. The perception among “white, independent” voters is that Obama is currying favor with Wall street and “redistributing” to minorities…The other problem here is that Doctors are losing—-big—on Medicaid. HCR will NEVER pass in the US if docs are dead set against it.
So push for single payer. That’d take care of things.
Upon leaving my parent’s then current policy with Kaiser, I embraced it a bit later on.
$25 a month, something I could afford in the mid 70′s to early 80′s.
As a $7-10 an hour worker and student, working 60 hours and taking 4 classes, I could afford it.
And then it increased, month by month, till in about ’82 it was gonna be $200 a month, or more, and I had to quit it.
I wasn’t even 30, and had no preexistings other than a severly cut thumb from a sharp knife in the biz (work comp), and as an 18 year old under my parents, a blown knee from senior year high school baseball.
HMO is where healthcare went wrong in the first place . . . . and it was legislated (don’t have linky for this).
Worst, structure, ever . . . and Kaiser led the way for the nation, under Reagan as Gov and Pres. I hate that man. More than Nixon. Right up there with both Bush’s.
I’ve not met any 20 something young folks in my 56 years of living with your depth of history, ability to call it up to the issue at hand, or know so much about the political process.
So let’s drop that charade.
Who ARE you?
Your choice of ‘expanding’ is where your Rovian perspective falls apart, sordidly and utterly.
Nice try, though.
NEXT!
Well, Nixon was actually the one that pushed for the HMO thing because he liked the fact that the HMOs made more money for providing less care.(Not even kidding about this one, sadly.)
Reagan just shielded the nation from focusing on the plight of the misfortunate, the poor, and the downtrodden, because he told everybody that they MOST everybody was doing so well, they’d have to compromise their personal wealth to take care of the problems. He appealed to human selfishness and greed in times of prosperity to prevent taking care of the poor. And he succeeded, sadly.
We can’t let this happen again now, in times of crisis. This is the ONLY time we’re going to be able to accomplish real change.
I think this will waste time and will likely come up with nothing. I want something passed now, the bill in the house does that. Once you have a bird in hand you can try this, but, again, if it were so damn easy it would have been done in August.
I’m myself >.>;
No, I’m not kidding you. I’m 23 years old, I’m male, I live in Colorado, and I do not as of yet have any political affiliations beyond who I vote for and the ideas I aspire to.
The left should not sell the Tea Party movement short. We have a list of Republicans as well as Democrats that are being systematically ‘outed’ – we know in infinite detail policy issues and evaluate accordingly with the real person behind the mask.
Conservatives have embraced Scott Brown knowing full well he will likely be more of a McCain conservative. But we can accept that because we believed he was being truthful. The first sign of dishonest or cowardly behaviour and he will be history.
We illustrated in 2008 that our party lost its way so we formed a collective voice to remind them of their actions. Today, we would like to believe the movement contains the voice of all people, as evidenced by the voters in MA. You guys just need to make certain you read your voters correctly and not fall victim in lockstep to the mantra being preached by the loudest on your side. They usually are the same that created the situation. Whenever a Republican summarily dismisses the Tea Party movement, it raises an immediate red flag – they still don’t get it.
Trying to discredit the Tea Party movement will only circumvent the process of trying to make the political landscape as honest as possible, whether you are left or right of center.
I’m really liking your rhetoric recently, but were you ALWAYS this REFORM friendly in the past?
As it is, I’m in agreement with yas . . . .
Like I have been saying, you ain’t no twenty something . . . you know too much.
Hi khin, and also this.
You want to see my long-form, hospital generated birth certificate, hun? =D
Respectfully, which Tea Party movement are you speaking of?
• Are you talking about FreedomWorks™ (Dick Armey) and Americans for Prosperity™ (Tim Phillips)-driven and facilitated people who will howl on cue?
• Or do you mean fervent Anti-Obama ‘Conservatives’ who carry signs likening the President to Hitler, and in African native costume with a bone through his nose, and talking about ‘the blood of Patriots’ and ‘the tree of Liberty’, and bring loaded firearms to events where the President is speaking?
• Or do you mean Libertarian-strain ‘Conservatives’ who object to government over-reach on general principle and would oppose similar policies regardless of party affiliation?
• Or do you mean folks whose party allegiance is up for grabs because they are scared to death by the tone of political discourse, combined with genuine uncertainty about issues like bank bailouts, health care legislation, and the stimulus?
One of these is not like the others.
Very insightful breakdown of the ‘Tea Party’ issue. Nicely done.
Dreams, I hope you is educating your cohorts, because the savvy you display is gonna be dire necessity if we vintage types can’t muster the moxie and commitment to rectify some (hell, a lot) of the shit that been building since our parents (members of the so-called greatest generation; they weren’t, but some of them understood) began sleepwalking and failed to understand that their country was being auctioned off right before their eyes … Our generation worked for Civil Rights and got rewarded with Vietnam, and by the time that debacle was over, too many of us decided money was all that mattered and Ivan Boesky’s assertion that “Greed is Good” provided the “license”. Reagan provided the excuse, and the rest is sorry American history. (Which Obama’s generation just can’t seem to get their minds around, those in power,at least). When money is all that matters, how you get it, does not matter and everything ends up having a “price” and nothing has value.
So, we are now well into the Age of the Divine Right of Money (as SCOTUS reminded us only yesterday) …
I have met several others like yourself and am glad (and confident)that such as yourself will carry on the struggle after we have shuffled off,
DW
Thank you. But tomorrow it will have morphed into Jeebus know what.
I’m trying, man, I’m trying.
I’m sick and tired of the malaise of responsibility on both sides, and I’ve got lots of problems with liberals and progressives (behavioral, not ideological) that I try to deal with at the same I’m attempting to dismantle the bullshit wherever I find it.
So someone else morphed the truth of what you were saying into some hyperbolic nonsense. Big deal. You just stick to the knowledge that you know the difference and that DOES matter.
Well, if you understand the responsibilty issue, then you perceive the essential problem.
You’re doing just fine.
Keep on keepin’ on.
You’ve got my appreciation and respect, for whatever that might be worth to you, dreams. (That means I pay attention to whatever you say)
DW
Thank you, that does mean a lot to me. But I would ask you this. It’s fine to pay attention to what I say, but I’d prefer that if you genuinely and honestly think I’m wrong about something to call me on it. PLEASE call me on it.
I honestly want to create a better world.
Rather, tomorrow or next week or in June, the term “Tea Party” will either encompass another branch of populist anger/resentment/curiosity/bewilderment of a variety that we can not predict, or will have dissolved into one of the existing parties to change that party’s internal calculus.
I personally think it will be a bit of both, but I think the 4th variety I described will be overcome by the 1st variety, and I think we will not recognize them in as little as six months.
Oh, you’ll find I’ve no problem calling bullshit when I see it, but you’ve got a clear moral compass and recognize that you are not infallible.
Those are stellar credentials, dreams, and the basis of genuine wisdom.
If ya can’t give ‘em heaven, then give ‘em hell (rhetorically speaking, of course.)
And dreams, the world is already a better place because you, and others like yourself, are here.
;~DW
Baucus, Lieberman are “fall guys”? You really don’t get it. These guys are the TOP recipients of insurance company dollars. They’re the REASON we’re in the mess we’re in. The ONLY reason. If you’re analyzing this situation thinking that THESE guys are the fall guys, you’re not even close to understanding the dynamic that’s been happening this past year.
Yeah, I think you’re right.
Mob mentality runs high among people that are angry and seeking an emotional way of addressing their frustrations.
But the simple fact you don’t see Tea Partiers as all the same gives you a unique insight into how to address them as a group and as a series of groups.
I think Tea Partiers can be the reform wing of the Republican party, if they stick to the principles they say they’re for. It remains to be seen, but they’re being steadily infiltrated by the Republican leadership, who rightfully see them as a threat and are trying to hijack their message.
And what about the bottom recipients of insurance company dollars? Or the middle recipients of insurance company dollars?
I’d say that YOU don’t understand the dynamic of what’s going on. Corporate power is funneling money into both parties. And both parties are doing plenty to keep the status quo functioning as it does. Why is it the job of the voters to smack down Joe Lieberman or Ben Nelson? Why doesn’t the party they caucus with do it for us?
If I’m missing out on something, please tell me. But I’m pretty sure I see the issue fairly clearly…
Baucus, Lieberman are
“fall guysthe Senators from Aetna and well point. Anyone who thinks these idiots are “fall guys” is suffering from dilusions of grandeur.I think they volunteered to be fall guys, and that’s probably what you meant, not patsies.
Joe Lieberman is so Teflon he can campaign against Obama and say Obama presents a clear threat to our national security, and Joe didn’t even have to worry about losing his powerful Homeland Security chairmanship.
He’s so Teflon that Obama instructed Reid to give Joe whatever he wanted in the HCR bill.
He’s so Teflon that he can get successfully primaried and the entire D.C. establishment comes running to his aid to make sure he still gets re-elected.
He’ll probably get an Iran invasion, humiliating airport screenings, and hundreds of thousands more Muslims put on no-fly lists too.
Rahm was like, “Who wants to play the heel in this fake health care debate?”
And Joe was like, “Hey I’ll do it, I’m Teflon. Plus I love to piss off liberals.”
In the overall scheme of things, these are the fall guys.
ALL the Senators (and most Congressmen) are the Senators (and Congressmen) from Aetna and Wellpoint. You show me a Senator, and I’ll show you some way they received campaign cash from the health insurance industry.
If you have evidence to the contrary, do please present it, I welcome the dissent.
Eeeexactly. Remember, for all the public outrage at THEIR supposed failings in the HCR, NOTHING has happened to Joe Lieberman or Ben Nelson from within their own caucus. That speaks to a PRETTY interesting picture of the caucus overall…
I know of few issues today, where people of opposing views cannot sit down and reach some level of common ground. This all-or-nothing position is a losing proposition for any degree of capable governing. Unfortunately, as your list indicates, there is currently no one body that represents, or even defines, all these factions that are springing up just because they can. Therefore, you have no unifying messages being formed. I truly hope and believe that some form of this movement stabilizes and brings forth a respectable voice that can be acknowledged. The legitimate groups encourage all people, regardless of race, politics or religion a wouldn’t consider any different position. I won’t even bother addressing the extremist groups.
On the local level, the party in Cincinnati began as a roundtable discussion between prominent members of both parties to discuss issues and seek common ground as an effective method to motivate sensible government. The Cincinnati Tea Party is a grassroots, nonpartisan group opposed to wasteful government spending. Our core values are fiscal responsibility, limited government, and free markets. Position on a few of the issues:
Healthcare
The current system needs tweaking. Costs increasing at the current rate (well past other goods and services in the economy) is not a good thing. Insurance companies are part of the problem. Mini monopolies have been formed in each state and the lack of competition contributes to more aggressive price increases and potentially, collusion.
Term limits
Extended time in office for anyone is a dangerous thing and leads to corruption. The nature of House of the Representatives is by default a more representative position than the Senate so a system of term limits couldn’t be done in the same way.
Corruption
No party has a monopoly on this. Respective lobbies to both parties have way too much influence in Washington. Both claim innocence and point a finger at the other side. They all believe the American people are a bunch of idiots and fall for this stuff.
Transparency
Legislation to require at least one week of public posting for any bill moving through Congress before it is voted on. Some special circumstances for emergencies could be determined. This is an Obama supported campaign promise we all agree with it.
Problems with the Republicans and Democrats
Parties for extended periods of time were becoming single issue parties with no room for any opposing viewpoints in their platforms – guns rights, healthcare stances, abortion, gay rights, etc. These were all things that forced a natural polarization of the American people and party system. This was not necessarily healthy and introduced influence and funding from very specific special interests on which respective parties came to depend.
Very nice.
I disagree, but very nice answer.
I can respect the fiscal responsibility and limited government, but ‘free markets’ are not a value. They’re a policy idea.
“but they’re being steadily infiltrated by the Republican leadership”
Absolutely not true and, meaning no disrespect, laughable. We have a growing grassroot movement in place now where we are successfully signing up at the local committeman level to infiltrate the Republican party. I know that in my region in SW Ohio, the 2008 elections were won locally by the extreme right. This caused many of the old timers to resign from leadership roles out of disgust.
We have been duped by our own party, but this is not to say that we can’t acknowledge and accept a nationally recognized politican. You are assuming all Republican leadership is tainted – not so. Having said that, Boehner is from my area and I would do everything I could to displace him, because I knew him when! All this recent flurry of ‘courage’ he found is phoney posturing!
I would like to think the Tea Party movement was instrumental in electing Scott Brown. If so, it dispels the mindset that you cannot be elected without tainted support. That should be encouraging to both our sides. You can tell how ‘good and right’ an ocurrance was by the level of attacks after the fact attempting to dispel the truth.
Cuts both ways, between both parties.
Have you decided that you like Brown, from an integrity and policy perspective?
I’ll grant you that it’s not entirely controlled by Republican leadership, but Dick Armey and others are very cozy with said leadership and they do a pretty big job of bankrolling the movement. Again, I don’t know the specifics of YOUR regional/local Tea Party organization, but I think as a whole Republican infiltration in order to manipulate the Tea Partiers is happening in places nationally. Also, I hope you aren’t arrogant enough to call the idea merely laughable, because before it’s too late to notice and do something to stop it you could be in the jaws of the same people you set out to work against. Just remember that.
I think Scott Brown owes a lot of his election to the Tea Party movement, although his genuine adherence to its principles I’d definitely question. Scott Brown was also expressly helped by progressive and liberal voters staying home or choosing to vote for him to send a message to their own party. Try not to forget that.
And while I can’t give you any fact-based information on his support being tainted, I’ll definitely say that the man lied plenty of times to advance his political well-being, and I assumed that dishonesty and politics as usual was something the Tea Party movement wasn’t pleased about.
Good to hear some of the old Ohio GOPers are still around and kicking and I wish you well. Genuinely well intentioned reasonable people in both political parties cannot fail to improve the life of the nation.
I believe at this time the corruption is pretty equally distributed in both parties.
Where I differ with my understanding of your agenda for improvement is not that all your leadership is tainted. It is that your theories of economics are what have created immense suffering and lowering of the standard of living and if continued will only worsen it. I also have differences as to the role of government in personal life, war making policies etc as well as role of religion in government.
Agreed, it certainly does cut both ways – spin is spin regardless
I think Scott Brown hit the national scene so quickly that very little is really known about him. However, let me say this. I can adjust to policy, I can never make an adjustment to anyone’s integrity. If you lie to me, you’ll steal from me.
I have complete confidence that had Brown’s character or policy been flawed, the MSM rats and Axelrod would have brought it to surface. Oh wait now, I read this morning HuffPo was all abuzz because they have now uncovered the evidence that some are certain will forever cripple Brown’s political career. A music video was just discovered that Mrs. Brown performed with a Boston rock band in the 80s, while on a boat and in the water, clad in a bikini…that’s it? After these 3 weeks, if that’s it, I can deal with it.
I understand he voted for Cap & Tax, but recently stated that in view of ClimateGate, this is now suspect and he may change his position. As a USGBC LEED AP who teaches sustainability, I do not subscribe to global warming and believe Cap & Trade to be the largest fraud in my lifetime. As an engineer my entire professional life and having read a few of the ‘memos’, I believe several of the offenders will be prosecuted. And given the admission yesterday from the UN that their ‘Himalayan Melt’ report was fatally flawed only supports the ‘deniers’ position. This is exactly what happens when politicians and corporate greed takeover dialog. They have made it very difficult for those of us who practice responsible sustainability and are confronted by clients who now know that Gore is a hoax and that Dr. Pachauri, who controls the UN and IPCC, is a fraud and one of the worlds largest investors in carbon credits…following the money always gets ‘em!
I feel as if this is a setup question. You know something about Brown? Now, let me ask you. If they both were in the same party running in the primary, which would you have voted for?
It was not a setup. He strikes me as Palin in trousers, but as you say, he is so briefly in our view that I can only go by his words, which are not impressive.
Edit: I mean, this is The United States Senate. If you are not impressive, how the Hell did you get there, and how will you master the enormously complicated and byzantine procedures?
“I hope you aren’t arrogant enough to call the idea merely laughable”
No arrogance intended, but laughable only in the sense that, as a whole, we believe the most effective way is not just to be a part of an opposition movement, but rather a part of the system. To ‘infiltrate’ at the the lowest level to help redirect the course of the local party and promote people who believe in the party’s core values.
I fully understand the importance of gathering support from the indys and opposing party. Probably to a smaller degree, this is what we did in 2008. If we could not force ourselves to support the other party, we didn’t vote for our candidate. I couldn’t punch the ticket for Boehner to save my life. I worked the Bush campaign headquarters in 2004 and the workers waited patiently for Boehner to visit. Came in late, walked down the aisle grooming himeself and out the door in 5 minutes. Well kiss my a$$ you MF! I have and will continue to vote for Democrats who I believe are honest and share some of my beliefs, but I must confess I couldn’t vote for Obama. He was and is just too frightening and I’ve seen this play too many times before. The problem you guys are experiencing is the fact that Obama realizes the country and world cannot be changed by campaign rhetoric structured to entertain the masses. I’ll give the man style, but little more. His downfall is due to the fact he is inexperienced and weak and fallen prey to the corruptness surrounding him.
On a local level, I can be much more liberal, if I don’t like the system, I’ll move down a few streets. On a state level, a bit more conservative as I can jump to KY or IN. However, on a national level, I am extremely conservative as I know the national politics of today will affect my children and grandchildren.
We’ll just have to see how Brown plays out. If he votes 90% party, I suppose that would be a gift. But once he begins acting like the Dems of late changing position on healthcare for payoffs, or being dishonest, he’s done. I think his position is somewhat unique given the circumstances of the base who elected him. It will most likely be very awkward as I suspect he was elected by the majority ‘no confidence’ vote.
OK, here’s a question with the setup (and my personal bias) built in for clarity.
If you were to evaluate a Supreme Court pick, and we’ll choose between Sotomayor and Alito for these purposes:
Which is a more dangerous pick for the Republic
• Soto, a supposedly Liberal woman who may or may not be an actual Liberal – just read her decision history
or
• Alito, a strikingly doctrinaire Conservative who believes in the Unitary Executive theory of Article 2?
I ask because among other chores, Brown will probably have a vote to confirm or deny a SCOTUS pick.
I’m actually somewhat opposite of you, ironically enough. I believe that liberalism as a national structure is the most effective at preventing the institutionalization of corruption and conservative ideas tend to work best for individual people and sometimes on the local level.
I respectfully disagree with you on climate change/global warming, but you ARE entitled to your opinion and I will respect it, though I think you’re wrong.
My problem is that Obama is a master of words, but he’s quite deficient in actions. The things he SAYS are so great and right on the mark most of the time, but what he DOES is very little, and action is what matters.
And on the topic of Brown… well, I have a feeling he’s going to disappoint you more than you realize. Brown has been a politician as usual for a good many years and the Tea Party’s only recent emergence doesn’t give me any thought other than that he realized that all of you are a good way to get himself back into office. I don’t really think he genuinely is interested in advancing your principles or ideals, but that’s not for me to decide, honestly, because I’d probably never vote for the man.
In any case, I do support your efforts to attempt to improve conservatives from within, and any time that honest intellectual reform for the better is earnestly attempted, I support it. I guess you’re just the conservative version of myself. I want to make liberals and progressives better from within and you want to make conservatives better from within.
Can’t say that what you’re doing is a bad thing, really.
“He strikes me as Palin in trousers”
This appeals to me. I’m too old to be impressed by words. There are plenty of capable people who can convey their message. But what value do you place on someone’s ability to create excitement and participation? I’ve seen many competent people walk down the aisle alone with no support because of their boring personality or rhetoric. This is a failure in business and politics.
“I mean, this is The United States Senate. If you are not impressive, how the Hell did you get there, and how will you master the enormously complicated and byzantine procedures?”
Harry S. Truman
If you don’t mind, can I ask you what about Palin appeals to you? I’ve as of yet never been able to get a straight answer out of conservatives about why they like her so much.
OK, let me say that there are nearly as many, if not AS many, unimpressive Democrats in the House and Senate as Republicans, IMO.
If you are suggesting that Palin’s words are my gripe, no. It is the thoughts and intellect behind them. Frankly there is no way to say that without sounding condescending – so be it. She lacks a sharp intellect. So be it.
And I don’t care if you are Left or Right – if you are a stooge for a party or an ideology, you do not belong there. Both sides have their share. Charisma is NOT a qualification for what should be an immensely difficult and thoughtful job.
My feelings about Sarah Palin are mostly that she just… is nothing but hype. I don’t think that as a person or personality she’s anything particularly special. From my observations of her, she’s condescending, hollow, and unable to independently articulate even bedrock notions of how she sees government or herself in government.
I just don’t think that she’s got anything positive to contribute to better government.
The scale of governance we are talking about is big time.
It should be incredibly difficult under the least strenuous of times, and these are anything but.
It is just that I can recall a time when that job was heavy-duty, only the unusually capable need apply, when voters examined candidates by actually examining their qualifications. Charisma and looks were important in political campaigns, but if you failed the cogency test, voters were afraid of you because of it, not enamored with you for it.
The issue most conservatives have with liberals is big government, which is, in our opinon, far more corrupt than private enterprise. But let us agree that both are corrupt.
With regards to global warming, through the USGBC and many other green rating standards being implemented into our building practices, we are successfully addressing our environmental issues. From carbon emissions to protecting our natural resources, incredible results are being achieved. Even if you were a proponent of Cap & Trade, it will never be implemented globally because of the corruptness of it’s structure.
IMO, do you know who is more responsible for Obama’s failures than Obama? The MSM who protected this guy and created an aura of invincibility. As a consequence, Obama is getting a reality check with his over zealous ambitions and policy dumps. Too much, too soon to an environment that has a different set of priorities. Didn’t his mother ever tell him to take little bites?
Brown…well, yeah, we both get our share of surprises don’t we?
Thanks for listening to my side for the evening.
P.S. I saw a few weeks ago, I believe on Redstate, that firedoglake wanted to play the ‘enemy of our enemy is our friend’ war concerning healthcare. So I visited, enjoyed the (mostly) civil dialog and signed up. A few days later I also ventured over to DailyKos. What a surreal experience that was.
Thank you for being honest and open about who you are instead of just coming here to troll. At least you’re interested in discourse instead of just taking potshots at people.
I can DEFINITELY agree with you that big government and private enterprise both have the same chances of being corrupt. My issue, and personally this transcends liberalism or conservatism or communism or ANYTHING, is that ANY single human being is corruptable. And all social institutions, from government, no matter the size, to industry, no matter the size, to religion, no matter the size, anything involving human beings is potentially corruptable.
Well… I completely disagree with you about who is at fault for Obama. I think Obama is at fault for Obama. Of course, the environment in which he lives enables him to make bad decisions, but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s the one that is making them. Obama can only change Obama.
I differ with you that his attempts are ambitious, I say that they’re incredibly milquetoast. He hasn’t done enough, in my opinion, and he needs to decide he’s going to take big bites or take none at all.
And on the topic of environmental sustainability, yes, it’s a great idea, and while I differ with you on climate change, I support personal sustainability when it is a true personal commitment to solving resource issues. But please beware that your position is going to be USED by those who don’t genuinely support it to advance their own agenda. Big Oil is great at funding and overtaking green-groups to advance its own interests.
In any case, thanks for being with us tonight. We may disagree with you, but we definitely appreciate the honest dissent. Most of what we get is… well, nonsense, to be honest.
Sorry I can’t get Medicaid I don’t have any children or a vagina. I make more than the federal poverty line like you can really live on that alone in Los Angeles.
I can take on my shitty companies’ shitty Blue Cross plan and I just won’t do it.
1) I don’t get sick often enough for it to be a concern
2) I can take on “side car insurance” get eye and dental if I really need it.
Like I said I am no long really concerned with what happens at the Federal level. Too many issues with getting real progress done. If California fails me then I know what I must do.
To all,
With regards to Palin, I am taken by her enthusiasm and natural ability to create an excited base. Then, I appreciate, for whatever the reasons, she took on the corrupt old boys system in Alaska. She held up strong with the relentless attacks from everyone…with little help from her own side. This showed me guts and strength.
As governor, she was the commander-in-chief of the Alaska National Guard. Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor defense system and the 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from ballistic missile attacks. It’s on permanent active duty, unlike other Guard units. Palin was briefed on highly classified military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism. Palin also had access to military and intelligence secrets that are vital to the entire country’s defense. Given Alaska’s proximity to Russia:
“I can see Russia…” think anyone got that?
Her political abilities? Oh, I think that was what we were asking about Obama. I would prefer she ran for the senate and remain there for a few years. I believe she is politically savvy and has the potential to lead.
Admittedly, I don’t know much about Sotomayor.
Regardless who the SC justice is, I don’t subscribe to the president having veto power. However, probably for different reasons than you may have. I liken this to a judge over ruling the decision of a jury. Too much power for any single individual that allows for the implemetation of a personal agenda. Read dictatorship!
I’ll agree completely with you on the potential for corruption within the sustainable community. Just last week, USGBC was charged with colluding with the only organization they allow for forestry stewardship, the FSC.
I obtained my accreditation because I don’t subscribe to the unabated direction of the ‘green’ movement. For the very same reason I am on this forum is the fact that I can’t argue against you unless I know the reasoning supporting your position. As a LEED AP, I’m likely to be the first to be ‘excommunicated’ by USGBC due to the fact I am very vocal when I see mis-direction and corruption. USGBC is positioning to become one of the most powerful lobbying groups you’ve seen. The danger is they have the right message but are showing signs of industry collusion.
And who is one of the biggest promoters of wind power? T Bone Pickens!
1000 % agree. I retried 2 years ago at 63 1/2 paid 18 mo of cobra, worked at biggest company in Vegas, paid $ 335 mo,now on medicare advantage same coverage i had on cobra. A laid off 50 year old worker needs this help
That would be a great excuse for anyone who faces highish premiums to fully self insure, meaning buying no outside insurance,a nd know, that in real catastrophic that kicks in…..It is like a HSA with no premiums, and no tax benefit…
I’m with you asdf@4 – Fuck the Senate bill, it’s a piece of shit that only makes big HCI and Pharmas even richer at the expense of both our take home pay AND tax dollars.
Jon Walker’s plan is dead-nuts on! Expansion of Medicare, Medicaid and SCHIP using reconcillation in the Senate is the only smart, cost effective and immediate means of getting HCR and coverage for all.
Sorry to be the one to break it to ya there rookwood but your support of a bat-shit crazy, intellectual moron and money grubbing political grifter like the quitter Sister Sarah makes you out to be delusional at best.
Not since Bushie 43 has the GOP pawned off such an imbecile on the American voter and you know what, some of them like yourself are suckers enough to buy into it!
Sorry to be so rough but you got it comin’ for being such a chump and drinking the Palin kool-aid, you betcha’…
Very good points. There is no question that forcing people to buy insurance WITHOUT the so-called public option, while moving money out of Medicare(!) an into the private program, is an opening shot against all public health programs.
This is why it was always a bad idea to try to make this bill work. D-Party apologists, meanwhile, should be able to see that if their Holier than Thou D-Party politicians were REALLY interested in getting more poor people insured–they could have DONE that by now! And, they probably would have won back TK’s Senate seat.
I also second lowering the age for a Medicare buy in. This is the group of people who have the biggest problem with private insurance companies. Let them start contributing to the public program early. This is only a bad thing if your REAL goal is to kill the program.
dreamsofprogress…validation
An expansion of Medicaid to 200% of the FPL is a great idea – a recent New England Journal of Medicine article suggested that this might be the best way to finance health reform:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/360/4/323
I would also suggest expanding it to small business owners.
As long as Medicaid is viewed as a “welfare” program by conservatives, it will be chronically underfunded and subject to arbitrary budget cuts. The more people who are included in Medicaid (particularly middle class people), the more difficult it will be for conservatives to demonize it as “welfare” programs that should be cut.
That is what I was trying to say, only you said it better and generated less heat :-)