It seems that they can’t scrape together 51 Senators who will agree to fix the Senate bill if the House passes it. The whole “fix it later” thing is a lie. The House is being told to “take it or leave it,” and there’s a full-court press calling out progressives in the House as traitors if they won’t.
Over at Daily Kos, this is a recommended diary:
Pass the Senate Bill and fix it through reconciliation later. I need you to call your Congressperson today and tell them that you want them to do that – that you need them to do that…We need a particular focus on the Progressive Caucus and on the Blue Dogs here – the Progressive Caucus is prepared to let the bill die because it isn’t good enough.
Alan Grayson is invoked: his diary Whose Side Are You On, is being used to imply that progressives who won’t vote for the Senate bill are not on “our” side.
California OFA Training Director Pamela Coukos (femlaw) is whipping in the comments in support, encouraging people to do what the diarist tells them.
There’s an unpleasant truth that many in DKos will be loathe to admit: right now the number one thing holding Health Care Reform from passing is the House Progressives. It’s not Stupak. It’s not Lieberman. It’s not a whole number of targets who deservedly have earned our scorn. It’s House Progressives who refuse to act and pass the Senate bill and then quickly pass reconciliation.
Krugman is (again) quoted as a validator, to prove how wonderful the Senate bill is. Grijalva is (again) a monster: “ People are literally dying for lack of health insurance and could give a shit about how tired you are about process issues.
And former Maria Cantwell staffer Jed Lewison says “pass the bill, again invoking Krugman:
As Paul Krugman argued in his column earlier today, there are three choices on health care reform: (1) pass the Senate bill, and improve it later; (2) try to come up with some new health reform plan; or (3) do nothing.
These diaries accept Krugman’s false set of choices that imply it’s the Senate bill, as-is, or no health care reform at all – and then uses that to castigate those who won’t act based on those assumptions. They should all read a diary by KagroX over at the fine blog Congress Matters. As he says, there’s a fourth option: it’s possible for the House to pass a a “self-executing rule” that allows the House to fix the Senate bill simultaneously rather than in some fictional “later” that will never come:
At the conclusion of the reconciliation process, when the House and Senate have both passed their bills and have agreed on a conference report settling any differences, the House may opt to include in the rule it adopts to govern debate on that conference report a provision deeming the Senate amendment to H.R. 3590 agreed to by the House. That way, when the House adopts the rule to allow the reconciliation bill conference report to come to the floor, it also agrees to the Senate bill it’s amending along the way, just moments before beginning debate on the fix, and without ever having a separate, stand-alone vote on the Senate bill they don’t like.
The “60 vote” threshold that the White House apologists insisted was the “reality” we all had to adapt ourselves to? It’s bullshit. It was always bullshit. Now that only 51 members are needed? Well, nobody can find them. The Democrats in the Senate are hell-bent on delivering the bill that the White House wants, and the White House wants the Senate bill. And progressives are now “traitors” if they won’t go along.
If you don’t want progressives to buckle under pressure from the White House apologists and get railroaded into passing the Senate bill, you better act right now. Because the administration and all the children of Cass Sunstein have way, way more ability to put pressure on them than we do, and unless everyone takes action, they’re gonna jam this shitty bill on all of us.
Call progressive members of Congress and tell them to vote against the Senate bill now.




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They know they don’t have the votes to pass the Senate bill in the House (even if Progressives vote for it, Stupak and his gang won’t), so they’re starting in early on punching the hippies. When there’s no HCR of any kind this year, all the blame will be placed on the damn Progressives, not on Nelson, Lieberman, Stupak, the Blue Dogs, Reid or Obama.
The only thing these people understand is the credible threat of being made to eat the shit sandwich of failure. They will cave and do what they promised during the campaign if they feel like they will otherwise fail.
If Obama had come out in Massachusetts and abandoned the individual mandate, consistent with his campaign promises, we’d be talking about Senator Elect Coakley today.
I’ll accept the blame, gladly.
First of all thanks for all you’ve done on HCR.
Jane I hope if this thing passes, if the Senate bill passes as is, I hope you wil be whipping labor, not the leadership, but labor rank and file to quit the Democratic party en masse.
I know I will be. Quitting and whipping. So I can’t vote in a Democratic primary. Big fucking deal, Replacing 1 or 2 members of congress at a time isn’t going to cut it. Unless those couple are top members of the leadership.
Enough. I can believe the sellout of liberals, that’s what the Democratic leadership does, but I can’t believe the total and complete Democratic sellout of labor.
Enough.
and passing this shitty bill was the best hope we had of getting things improved.
hope you’re gonna be happy with the nothing you’re hoping for.
If the GOP had proposed this bill, you Democrat hacktivists would be circling the Capitol building and shitting purple twinkies over how bad the Republicans were.
Krugman is being either dishonest or not willing to look at the whole perspective because of emotion blinding him.
Shameful.
Krugman lives in a ivory tower.Does he understand how a family of 4 lives on 80,000.00/yr ?
They can pile on too, if they want. The progressive side has the workable solutions which in the end will prevail.
He certainly doesn’t understand how a family of 5 lives on $40,000/yr.
This is schoolyard bullying. Plain and simple and not surprising after Mass voters bloodied their nose. Name calling and threats is all they left.
Jane,
Three have been commentors posting as of late who have monikers referencing Heller’s Catch 22. And clearly, that is by no mistake based on the comments.
This post appears to be a a strategy against the message of, “If Progressives vote for the Senate Bill and the middle class sinks, Progressives fault. If Progressives don’t pass the Senate bill and millions suffer because of no health reform – Progressives fault.”
Then KagroX and you come along with:
Another solution with no Catch 22. Great work. Thank you.
By the way, Progressives have been asking for answers to some basic economic questions and what have we gotten? Crickets.
There is abundant documentation as to those real economic questions gone unanswered by Moderate Dems, the WH, and the GOP.
So, no Catch 22. The “blame game” won’t work this time. The MA vote and post election polling results makes that quite clear.
but, it’s clear from their responses, and all the “leadership” dem responses, that they don’t understand that message from Mass. They’re buying the Repub and Blue Dog (see: E. Bayh) spin about “overreach” and “too partisan”, and pushing – still! –
“bipartisanship.”
So, staying home in Mass. didn’t work, and sent exactly the wrong message. And made things worse.
No, I don’t know what would work, but that tactic did not work.
Interestingly, I’m reading Kennedy’s memoir re the 94 HCR debacle and he talks about individual mandates, offset by tax breaks. He doesn’t trash the idea.
I guess all this shows what an epic failure of leadership on the part of the WH this has been. Can it herd these sheep together for something good?
Funny how it’s progressives in the House and Senate who are always told to bend over, smile and enjoy it, it’s inevitable and that resistance is feudal.
Mr. Krugman jumps gleefully on that orchestrawagon by putting the onus only on progressives to compromise their positions in order to pass harmful, non-reform legislation hateful to them and their supporters, all to make the president and his Hermaphro-publicrats look sane and rational as they bend over even farther to please corporate America.
Mr. Krugman continues to push the “fix it later” meme, one Mr. Bush used frequently, with absolutely no intention of fixing a damn thing. Just as Mr. Obama has no intention of ending Gitmo’s excesses; he will just move them to less salubrious locales.
They can’t get 51 Senators now? Jeezus F’ing Christ on his throne! What is the matter with those jackasses?
Saw Wendall Potter on msnbc last night calling to pass the bill and improve it later,first time he’s done that.
re
Hey, earl – just curious – is that a pun on ‘futile?’
(not in the least arguing with your premise; no question, it is always us ‘dfh’s” who are expected to give in.
I love you, Jane… but 50 Dems + Biden aren’t going to pass anything stronger than the current bill through reconcilliation. There is no will there for most. When they can look up stuff like this:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/01/senate-rankings-post-masspocalypse.html
And see that even Bayh’s seat may be up for grabs in November, you’re going to have a lot of headless chickens running around. And yeah… I’d love to see Bayh out of the Senate. But if he goes down, we’re talking about a low 50s Senate for the Dems, or worse. With guys like Webb running scared for 2012.
I think the reality is that the current Senate bill probably wouldn’t get 50 votes *today*. Doing something stronger wouldn’t get more votes, but less.
The choice really at this point is Senate Bill, or nothing. Is “fix” a boondoggle? Sure. But so is getting anything of note through reconcilliation. It simply isn’t going to happen. The will in the Senate is even more fractured than it is in the House.
If you’re happy with no reform for the balance of the decade, support the death of the Senate bill. We simply aren’t going to get remotely this close again until the entire country goes bankrupt. Frankly with the Citizen’s case yesterday, even if the Goverment and the rest of us middle and lower class folks go broke, the Corporations and Rich will still be rolling in the cash and flood the airwaves with enough lies that the Idiot Vote (which is far larger than any of us admit) will be manipulated to firewall against any real reform.
I don’t care for the Senate bill. Reality check: I don’t care for the *House* bill. I’m a single payer guy, wishing we had Canada or France’s system. But I was willing to hold my nose for a shitty House bill because it got people covered and was a base that we could more easily billed on similar to building on SCHIP over the years. I willing to hold my nose for the Senate bill because literally nothing else will pass. Not now, and not for the balance of the decade now. Citizens makes that a *lock*. It is the new reality.
If you’re willing to have the status quo remain for the rest of the decade, by all means stay on the soap box and tell the Progressive Caucus to kill the bill.
John
‘The whole “fix it later” thing is a lie.’
Who could have imagined?
Glad we didn’t spend any time trying to get people to consider that it wasn’t a deliberate lie … from the beginning, raising false “hope” and further confusing the intentional confusion and the obscuring, and again, deliberately intentional, attendant bull shit.
We have enough fabulists telling people what to “believe”, already.
It may not die with dignity, but pull the plug and let it go, this health insurance “reform”.
Krugman must understand that “this” is NOT health CARE reform.
Clearly, he imagines that too many others do not, and nothing seems likely to move him any closer to “truthiness”, alas.
And a lack of what?
Conscience or moral courage?
What’s really in it for Paul?
This wouldn’t be about being appreciated for “gravitas” in the manner to which one is accustomed, would it?
DW
Since you state, “there’s a full-court press calling out progressives in the House as traitors if they won’t,” I may as well clarify something about the Full Court Press I’ve been advocating lately.
The plan calls for filing in all 435 Democratic congressional primaries on the basis of 5 progressive points, including Medicaid for all and repealing Hyde. We feel that the entire Democratic Party has to be put on notice, not just the worst. And it is interesting to watch some of our progressive heroes (Barney) leaving the door open to passing the Senate bill as-is.
It says nothing about what our stance would be in the general election.
Nor does it say about how, or how vigorously, a FCP candidate would campaign during the primary. We are playing hardball, even with very limited resources, but we are not mindless ideologues. We take account of those like Grijalva who are providing us with profiles in courage.
The liberal blogosphere is raving about stiffened spines, mettle and resolve, and Yglesias is even calling for Grijalva to physically assault U.S. senators:
In fact, the courage they are calling for is the courage to defy the 55% of the American people who are opposed to both House and Senate bills that sell women’s abortion rights down the river and serve up our heads on a platter to the insurance industry.
But the real courage is standing up to this hysteria.
That statement is patently untrue for all the reasons outlined in the diary, so people should ignore it.
Mr. Krugman calls the Senate bill a “centrist” document, a conclusion he can reach only by sitting on the 20 yard line and calling it midfield. I guess Princeton’s notion of football is about as rigorous as the University of Chicago’s.
How did you guess?
I’ll shit ‘em if you like ‘em, but they’re not very nutritious, marcos.
your colorful sugary taste treats aren’t gonna keep you healthy any more than thinking that killing this bill is gonna get you something better in the next dozen years.
saw this coming, yet it’s still disappointing
I think that’s a great idea. Have you set anything up, website etc?
Relax progressives the senate bill is dead. HCR is dead. Also with yesterday’s Supreme Court ruling democracy is dead in America. Welcome to the Corporate States of America. Long live Big Brother!!!
Bayh stands a better chance of losing if he votes for the Senate bill than if he tries to fix it. People hate this bill, just look at what happened in Massachusetts.
Vapulation will continue until morale improves.
Me too! Don’t tell them no different.
Absolutely. The unions are on board. Why can’t we? It’s now or never, and the idea that allowing Republicans to get elected to teach Democrats a lesson is guaranteed to get 0% of a progressive agenda passed.
Please reconsider doubling down on failure.
HE CERTAINLY DOESNT UNDERSTAND HOW A FAMILY OF 1 LIVES ON 0/DOLLARS A YEAR
Jane hath spoken?
want to bet a buck that you’re not gonna get a better bill?
Why aren’t the so-called progressives pushing the Senate to accept the House bill “as is?”
Let’s see, Citizens United and MA Senate and the Democrats STILL don’t get the message? If they can’t rise to this occasion, a gold plated platinum diamond studded oppportunity, then they deserve to fall by the wayside, as is their apparent desire.
Why do you insist on parroting the GOP talking point that MA was about HCR? There is zero evidence of that.
the vapulative process helps brings vital matter to light.
The president ran against an individual mandate, it is unpopular amongst the voters of all ideologies, yet he insists on slitting his own throat.
Please reconsider political suicide or just jump and put the Democrat Party out of our misery.
The idea of “fix it later” doesn’t square with the fear of the teabaggers taking over the house and senate in the next few years. We’re supposed to hold out hope that these
pussiesDems can hang on to their majorities (not to mention the presidency) long enough to fix this POS bill? Please. They can’t have it both ways. I’m surprised at Wendall Potter and everyone else who’s backing down. Unless this same clueless congress figures out what to do about the Supremes giving the country to the corporations, we will all be movin to cuba with you.we can’t offend our house of lords
What Jane’s describing in this post appears to point out that the fix was in from the beginning. They tried pretending they needed bipartisan support. Then they tried having one member of the Senate Democratic Caucus take all the heat. When that was too much for one, a few more joined him. Now they’re saying they don’t even have 51 to make improvements to the Senate bill.
KagroX’s analysis at Congress Matters seems to be addressing the possible, not the probable. Wouldn’t it require enough House Democrats to go along with it? Put, alas, the fix was in…
The individual mandate and premium tax are wildly unpopular, and that is one major reason why MA progressives stayed home on Tuesday.
When the Democrat Party makes health care the top agenda item for 9 months, and then loses an election where polling indicates that health insurance reform as proposed is unpopular, why are you trying to argue that there is no connection between the two?
Um folks this is the wake up call of wakeup calls, poll showing Obama could lose to Huckabee. Does anyone else remember that his issue of choice was healthcare, I sure do. See the second link…
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/01/poll-obama-in-close-races-for-2012-huckabee-has-one-point-edge.php?ref=fpb
http://healthinsurance.about.com/od/healthinsurancebasics/a/huckabee.htm
A better bill than this piece of shit? You’re talking like the Senate’s bill is good. It isn’t. You called it shitty yourself in your comment @ 5. It’s worse than nothing. If it’s the best we’re going to get, as you suggest in your comment @ 33, than doing nothing is better.
Still, I’m not so sure it can be improved. I’m leaning toward agreeing with you on that point.
The Health Insurer and Pharma Corporate Welfare Act of 2010 just might be the 767 that flies into the DLC Towers, just like NAFTA was.
Why can’t these Democrabs wait until they’re lame ducks to give the store away to corporations, why do they always make a play to screw their base in the most violent way possible right when they get into office?
We’ve been “public” since early December, working now on setting up a 527, all the little formal stuff. I’ll e-mail the plan to firedoglake [at] gmail.com and can do a diary if you like.
Thanks.
I know you’re Joe Lieberman’s biggest defender, and that’s good, everyone needs him. But if you want to pretend things are true that aren’t in order to get his bill passed, you’re just being a troll spreading disinformation.
Does that mean that Bart Stupak and his minions will vote for the Senate bill?
Sorry, earl — since it was you, I thought so – but sadly, from someone I didn’t “know,” my first conclusion would have been spelling/word choice mistake. There’s so much of that around….(apologies from a word maven)
The Democratic Party is toast…
…and that, right there, is why Teddy Kennedy’s seat was lost to a batshit crazy R.
Drawing them “out” on a quartering basis.
The REAL “bottom line”.
(Such exquisite torture …)
Star chambers and privy councils are just ahead, on yer right … folks.
Meanwhile, Obama is speaking in Ohio right now. He’s damn good. I’m impressed.
Sorry for the ot.
That’s where you’re going wrong. There is not a bit of truth to that statement.
I doubt the full court press will be effective with advocates like Elise? She is despised by most progressives on kos.
Our Democratic leadership and this Administration is astonishingly stupid. Their read on the Brown election is to double down and jam through the shitty senate bill that caused the revold in MA? I am moving more and more to the third party solution. The corporatist in the Democratic party are too entrenched.
You know what Jane… I’m done… President Bushbama has thrown me over the edge! I’m not calling, writing, or doing anything with my representatives beacuse they are only interested in bribes from big corporations not in getting elected!
…and you can thank the ‘establishment’ Democratic Party for that/
Oh, Pulleze. I think I have the vapors!
I know , do not feed.
And many of us honestly believe that that point of view is just wrong, and that it will make things worse.
Honest differences of opinion, and attempts to persuade people to that opinion, do not equate to
Damn good at what? Lieing to us!
try 28K
Who are in Stupak’s gang? If they exist, why don’t they speak out? I call bullshit on Stupak.
Your observations about MA are weak. It’s the one state that has the most experience with health “reform” of the kind the Senate is pushing. The pros have yet to catch up with the cons and something better is needed. They know how fruitless and expensive it will be to go down this road.
The polls are also clear about other things, too, that you ignore by the empty distraction of calling Jane’s advocacy “parroting GOP talking points”. One thing is that Coakley lost because the Democrats have pissed on their base and they have lost interest in supporting people who do that, then tell them to say thank you and ask for more. The GOP would be happy at that state of affairs, not sad.
Timing is everything in politics. Strike while the iron, the humiliation of losing a seat that had been in Democratic hands for generations, is hot. It’s like bungee jumping: the only moment there is now. When a politician promises to fix something later, it means he has no intention of fixing it at all.
Who is Elise and what are you referring to?
Prefiero morir de pies que vivir de rodillias.
I’m not talking like the bill is good. I’m talking like it’s a shitty bill or nothing and nothing is nothing to build on.
He has always played good cop for the neolibs. Remember his apologia for child labor back in the 90s.
I dunno. I have to admit I don’t completely understand the “self-fixing” clause, but I really wonder if Democrats in Congress have the stomach for any more of this. I’m worried that it really is a choice between the Senate bill and a piecemeal approach that only helps a small number of people, or barring that, I’m not at all convinced that these Democrats (the White House included) aren’t oblivious enough to just let this thing die and damn the consequences.
I’d love to be convinced differently. But my gut is telling me that if we don’t pass the Senate bill right now, we get a few crumbs at best.
How about some honesty with people. Will Obama have the fortitude to put his dick back in his pants, ante up some humility and say: “We’ve spent 9 months crafting this, what Congress has produced is not popular with the American people. We will take heed of that sentiment and produce something that enjoys popular support and delivers on our campaign promises to make health care affordable to all without an individual mandate?”
um yeah there is…
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/77133-progressives-say-mass-makes-case-for-public-option
Damned good at pursuing a non-progressive agenda and still sounding all populist. It’s impressive.
Of course, doing what he does while letting Republicans paint him as a liberal sucks for us…
No mention of Bart Stupak threatening to kill the bill from trolls around here. Throwing women under the bus makes more sense to them I suppose.
Speechifying Mr. Obama has down pat: there’s just him, the podium, the teleprompter and an imaginary audience. It’s doing anything that doesn’t result in unanimous consent that makes him break out in hives. In politics, except for caving to corporations, there is no such thing. (Even that requires telling individual, non-corporate progressives, “I can’t hear you!” while clapping both hands around your ears.)
There is nothing to build on in the Senate bill. It isn’t reform at all.
Wow, unbelievable.
So now the truth comes out. It’s not just 3-4 senators but whole lot of them who’ve been bought out by industry and this is before the new supreme court ruling goes into effect.
Obama has really changed the whole landscape.
“Remember his apologia for child labor back in the 90s.”
apologia for child labor? – no I don’t, but a linky would help and be appreciated.
I never believed in sidecar reconciliation for a second. This is all scams built on scams, a classic bait-and-switch. The Democrats and the Obama Administration would ignore us completely if they could. As they can’t, they treat us like rubes. And we are supposed to support Obama and the Democrats because they are the lesser of two evils? Then there is the one about ….
drucarr what about the Senate Bill Should Progressives Love?
You do know that GOP members of house will make a point to tell everybody in the USA, the DEMS are going to force you to buy INSURANCE, in the MIDDLE of the GREAT RECESSION.
No real progressive is going to touch the toxic Senate Health Care Bill.
Drucarr the senate bill just loves UNIONS to the point it makes them pay more taxes on their candillac/chevy health care plans.
the SENATE HCR scam Bill just embraces Roe vs Wade, I mean it sits women rights back 50 years.
Drucarr it will come a time when can no longer tolerate [edited by mod] like you.
Obama is running from the Senate Bill.
At the end of day let the ConserverDems die with their HCR scam.
You have got to be kidding me. You’re crying and whining about living on 80k a year? That’s what flabbergasts me about the latte radicals on this site. You want to screw over 30 million people so that squarely middle class people get a better shake?
Everyone here really lacks a sense of proportion. The 40,000 people who die every year because they lack health insurance? Not making 80k a year. Not even close. When I hear squarely middle class people beat their chest about how awful the Senate Bill is, I think to myself how much I would have appreciated your brilliant plan to sacrifice not only the future of Democratic governance but universal health care when I was 26, poor, and was denied even an expensive individual plan because I had had a kidney stone when I was 19.
You love Krugman when he’s slagging on Obama but hate him when he’s fighting, alongside every health care economist, to get universal care passed. The two main complaints I’ve heard here about the Senate Bill, I mean, other than completely irrational nonsense, are that it won’t have a Public Option, which, by the way, the House Option was only going to cover about three million people anyways, and the “Chevy tax”. It’s almost as if you are just wedded to a watered-down gesture (the public option as it stood in either House or pre-Lieberman Senate) and avoidance of a tax that certainly wasn’t going to hit anyone who doesn’t currently have health insurance.
You’re fighting for your own sanctimony and to avoid taxes. The fact that you call yourselves progressives is absurd. Anything passed through reconciliation by definition is not going to include the real important parts of a health care bill- community rating, exchanges, and an end of rescissions and denial for pre-existing conditions.
There is ZERO evidence that Coakley, who is staunchly for a national public option, lost to Brown who is very much against a national public option.
Now what kind of friggin’ idiot would vote for Brown because the current bill doesn’t go far enough?
It’s just like Tweety asked Howard Dan: How was Coakley not liberal enough?
That logic – along with the logic of helping restore a GOP majority – is just mind-boggling to me.
Folks keep an eye on Grayson.He is a junior Obama:he says all the right things and then turns around and vote for crap and his excuse,”well there isn’t anything better”
This Grayson is a fraud.The guy is no progressive.another multi millionaire librul.
I totally agree.
The MSM and republicans call the senate HCR scam bill progressive, enough with madness.
Obama = Bush
Yes, Marxist Islamicists forcing people to purchase products from a for-profit industry under pain of federal sanction.
The Senate bill is not worth anything. People won’t be covered for years so everything will go on as it is. The mandate and subsidy approach just means that the insurers will suck more $$ out of the treasury by the backdoor. There are no limits on what the insurers can charge the public, so premiums will continue to go up by double digit %. These charges rise much faster than the cost of living, and the insurers keep posting record profits. By the time it is to go into action, it will be “fixed;” it will be worse.
If this bill is not passed, the insurers can keep raising rates without limit and we will all be losers. If it is passed, the insurers cannot only raise rates, but also will have, by gov’t fiat, an even larger set of people buying their wares. This is what is so important to get passed now?
I’ll ask you the same thing: How does electing someone totally against a national public option over someone for it because you are for it work?
And all that story says is, basically: ‘Progressives parrot GOP talking points to their own detriment’.
True, but he talks pretty. Just like someone else who got elected last year.
True, the new supreme court ruling hardly changes anything.
Uh, because there’s no way that would work? How about, come a few days from now, there’s no supermajority in a chamber where supermajority rules, while the House has a thirty-vote Dem majority and runs on majority rules.
OMG!! Has the world completely gone….flat or something! This is like the twilight zone. PROGRESSIVES ATTACKING OTHER PROGRESSIVES FOR STANDING FIRM ON REAL REFORM!!
TOSH – DRUCARR and others who support throwing in the towel and eating shit on the Senate bill, I must ask you:
RESPECTFULLY, and please be honest and not hostile. Did you actually read the Senate Bill? I mean, actually read the bill IN FULL?
Because if you haven’t, you should. I suspect that if you REALLY knew what was in that bill, you would not be so quick to throw in the towel. But if you honestly have and you are comfortable with it, well then I can have a lot more respect for your position of “compromise” even if I disagreed with it.
But if you haven’t and you are just going with the “mantra of the day” it is absolutely lame to start attacking Jane Hamsher and others for standing firm just simply because we refuse to settle for the lamest possible bill. This bill (imho) is nothing more than a shit cake with crap frosting!
If we set this bar any lower we are going to have to sink it below sea level.
If the dumbshit D’s would wake up and smell the tide as it comes in they would ditch this Barack Obama spec HCR and blow past this Vichy Obama WH and put up Single Payer/Medicare For All within the next six months.
Just before 2010 election let the R’s vote against it. Let them. Encourage them.
This current HCR turd is not happening in fulness until 2014 as is and that is a pie in the sky target all things considered.
Put up a legitimate HCR that the corporatists,AHIP,PhARMA will hate. Hate.
The more hate the more it must be the right way to go.
D’s are going to sweep 2010 and 2012 elections with this approach.
The ObamaBots are wood dumb to think current HCR AHIP Slush Fund is a must do and have.
This 2009 HCR is bad politics,bad policy and no good anyway.Nothing? Yes.
Let the R’s fall on a good and real HCR sword. They will be in the wilderness for the next one or two decades. Let them vote no and perish.
Hey – there you go, assuming that everybody on this site is the kind of “latte liberal” you’re calling the poster.
Read on a little and you’ll see follow-ups – obviouslly from people referring to their own incomes.
The last was $28k – and I’ll add my own – $26k, without a raise for 4 1/2 years – last year – under $15k.
There are many, many of us in those lower income brackets on this site – so shut the blank up until you know what you’re talking about and to whom you’re talking (yeah, I’m educated, just not affluent).
Stupak Nelson Stupak Nelson Stupak Nelson Stupak Nelson Stupak Nelson Stupak Nelson Stupak Nelson Stupak Nelson Stupak Nelson Stupak Nelson Stupak Nelson!
Am I clear? As a tactical observation, for those of us opposed to both House and Senate bills, it’s striking that we don’t hammer the hacks on Stupak/Nelson. It’s such a clear violation of a fundamental principle. They are reduced to saying that women have to be collateral damage. It robs them of any high ground (45,000 will die!) they may claim.
Let me be clear. I feel personally passionate about this, I’m uncomfortable that it has been turned into a political football at all.
But they’ve clearly crossed a red-line on this. The question is, what is our blind spot that we aren’t hammering them on this?
alex1980
How do Insurance companies feel about the Senate HCR scam Bill?
Alex1980 the day of the conserverdem is over.
If you love the Senate HCR Bill so much write to every dem congress person and see how many are going to campaign about how great the senate bill was for the USA.
You may not know this, but I doubt that the american people want to bailout Insurance companies.
All congress people read Polls, and the polls say run away from the SENATE HCR scam as fast as possible.
The problem with passing this shit sandwich and improving it later is
the fine folks (Ins. Lobby) who wrote it don’t want it fixed.
I swear, the health insurance industry has something BIG on Obama/Rahm. Just where are the minutes of those closed door sessions?
At the time, MA voters thought they knew that Coakley would have been the 56th vote for a public option. No one thought that she’d be the 60th vote.
How would voting for Coakley have made the bill better?
And now we know that there aren’t even 50 Democratic Senators who really wanted a public option or who are even willing to work with the House to make the crappy Senate bill better.
The problem for Coakley last Tues wasn’t that people voted for Brown thinking it would make the bill better.
The problem was that many who wanted real reform – people who would have voted for a Democrat in ’06 and ’08 – didn’t bother showing up to vote at all in 2010.
No we are outraged at forcing people to buy expensive insurance through a mandate with NO possiblity of cost controls whatsoever.
The public option is seen as a check on premium prices for everyone.
Lucrative post government service compensation packages.
Gawd, you sound just like Tweety, who was incapable of getting it.
His argument with Dean assumed that people vote after making rational calculations. He’s wrong. People vote from emotion, and that’s the explanation for Massachusetts.
If you were paying any attention on line, before the MA election, you’d know how many Democrats IN MASSACHUSETTS were emphatically declaring their intentin to stay home on election day.
Reason? They couldn’t vote for Brown, and they were convinced that failing to vote for Coakley, allowing Brown to win, would “send a message” to DC that they were doing health care (and everytning else) all wrong.
You’re just as out of it as Tweety.
The Senate bill is Obama’s NAFTA and will be as effective at moving towards a functional health care provision system as NAFTA was effective at moving us towards a sustainable, healthy economy.
Krugman also probably has a sweet insurance plan he can afford.
Thanks, John, for articulating my sentiment as well. Seems too many progressives are unwilling to understand the implications of the fact the democratic party by its nature is much more heterogeneous than the republicans, which is what also makes it much more inclusive. It is a fact of nature it is much more difficult to herd cats than to herd sheep.
Because by the time of the election, the fix was alreay in. Coakley would be forced by her caucus to vote for the abomination that is the Senate bill. She was never going to be allowed to vote for a public option, ever.
Tweety has that nasty Catholic guilt thing going on, where he just knows that Nancy Pelosi dressed in her nun habit is going to storm into the classroom with a metal yardstick and rap his knuckles unless he recites his catechism.
Elections have consequences.
Oh, one more point re us “latte radicals,” “solidly middle-class” – I’m more than low-income enough to get the maximum “subsidy”, but the current bill will do nothing at all for me.
I still wouldn’t be able to buy insurance, and I still wouldn’t be able to pay the co-pays if I could buy the insurance.
Get off your holier-and-poorer-than-thou soapbox, and pay attention.
You’re trying to fit the problem to the answer. MA WAS NOT ABOUT HEALTH CARE REFORM. It was about a crappy candidate who went on vacation during the home stretch and a DNC that thought it was a safe seat.
You should’ve known that all along. The public option was never a possibility.
It’s quite simple: any negotiations the concluded that a mandate should be in the final bill were not good faith negotiations.
Pretty much everybody will get that.
Well, how many tries training a dog does it take to get the message across? Only one, then it’s by-by?
Even science doesn’t work that way!
Well, no, Citizens United changes quite a lot. Its focus is at the federal level, but its consequences will be felt nationwide. True, Karl Rove proved in Alabama that corporations can already influence statewide electoral offices, and the health insurance “reform” bill indicates how much influence they have on the Hill. But Citizens United, to paraphrase Dick Cheney, takes their gloves off. We will move to the dark side because of it, too.
Pundits selling that line are only partly correct. They are bragging about their perspicacity and downplaying the consequences of a decision whose ramifications will affect every elected office and, therefore, what elected governments do and for whom.
Bobzim you may be a little slow.
John Smith is a Dem running for the senate office in South Carolina, by some miracle he wins the election over the GOP candidate.
BOBZIM, do you think the independents help John Smith win in S.C.? or did the GOP base in S.C. stay home. The intelligent political people will say the GOP base stayed home.
the ONLY way a GOP candidate can win in MASS is if the DEM PROGRESSIVE base stays home.
Most intelligent congress people know this fact.
Welcome to the year 2010.
The MORONIC conserverdems don’t matter anymore.
Progressives need to elect real progressives to congress.
Remember not one progressive stood up for the public option. If a real progressive had stood up for the public option, drug importation, etc. he or she would be leading candidate for 2012. Fact
I just contacted my congressman’s office, and so did my wife and our adult son. Try to reassure them that the people will support a no vote, and a rubber stamp of approval on the senate bill will probably mean the end of line next election. I’m sure they are getting the harrassment threats from rahmbo the clown, I’m also sure they are all thinking about what happened in Mass.
Getting NOTHING is BETTER than the shitty Senate bill.
Read the bill and we’ll talk.
Paul Krugman doesn’t care a whit about abortion rights, tax equity, or corporate power issues, all of which he is ignoring in order to support the Senate abomination. I for one, would rather see nothing pass than the Senate bill, which would make the middle class pay for the privilege of becoming serfs to the health insurance industry.
There are alternatives to doing nothing, though, and some of those are:
1. Sidecar reconciliation, which Jane has outlined so well and would fix the most egregious aspects of the Senate bill.
2. Passing legislation that would promote state-based single-payer insurance with funding and infrastructure support. If enough states like CA implemented this, it would result in a gradual move to single-payer across the nation.
3. Pass legislation incrementally, beginning with restrictions on health insurance companies’ most malicious practices. As pointed out by others, this legislation, on it’s own, would be a death sentence for private health insurance, meaning those companies would become more eager to support further legislation that would save them from eventual death. Holding the Sword Of Damocles over their heads could make them exceptionally amenable to more progressive ideas.
I think any of those approaches could result in a more progressive result than simply passing the Senate bill and hoping for the best because you know what will be coming – unlimited corporate funding for GOPers accusing the Dems burdening the American people with “a mandate to buy junk insurance they can’t afford.” Which would be true and impossible to defend. But there are viable choices if the Dems can find some courage, just a little, and get something done.
I don’t believe “doing nothing” will hurt Dems in Nov any more than they have already been damaged, but the CW in DC is that doing nothing is worse than doing something, and as long as that attitude prevails, they will attempt to get something passed. But if progressives cave on this issue, the only message that will be sent to Rahmbo and the other corporatists is that progressives can be rolled on any issue at all and nobody has to consider their views. For progressives, this is sink or swim time. Either hold firm or lose everything.
the dkos diarist Jane linked to.
Jane, honest question, what do you see happening to Progressive Democrats’ electoral chances if no reform passes?
I just don’t see how killing this bill won’t cause most of the country to want to join in the punch-a-hippie brigade, even though we all know that it’s the ConservaDems who mucked it up and Republican obstruction that gives the corporate Dems their inordinate power.
On the other hand, the bill is unpopular and if it doesn’t improve things it will give Republicans fodder forever.
It seems like a lose/lose for Progressives at this point.
Then add in the Citizens United decision and I am about to start backpacking to Canada.
Keep selling. Nobody’s buying.
The Democratic leadership has made it clear, time and time again, after Brown, after New Jersey, after Virginia, hell, even after NY23, that they WILL NOT MOVE TO THE LEFT ON ANYTHING. Their only response to criticism, failure, defeat, developments, issues, slight breezes, etc., is to ‘tack to the center’ (which for them is to move closer and closer to RightVille)
We’ve done literally everything we could. We warned them about the upcoming losses. We’ve told them how bad the policy items are in the long term. We’ve shown them that their thinking on the excise tax and the individual mandate is flawed and political harikiri.
They are not going to listen. They’ve said as much. Rahm has said as much. It’s time for us to stop coddling and enabling these money-addicted corporatist sellouts with our support or our votes. To be quite honest, the Democrats have chosen their path, and they will earn whatever consequences walking along it brings. It’s time for liberals and progressives to say ‘NO MORE’ and strike our own path.
dear jane: first, thank you for all you have done and continue to do for hcr; however, after going back and forth many times, i have decided as bad as the senate bill is, and with hope it can be fixed shortly, i will NOT have those like jim demint win; i will not pile on any further president obama. i am advising the house to pass the senate bill; i am tired of the machiavellian, disingenuous and obfuscating gop box us in one more time. not this time!
He’s a great speaker… carrying through on his promises?
Not so much.
Via Americablog.
So these are not Republican talking points.
Not to mention the fact that I am very low income and I drink lattes daily. Maybe I’m a half-caf liberal.
No argument – I was just stating a fact – as of now, the Dems are not getting the message the electorate was trying to send.
Difficult does not equate to IMPOSSIBLE!
It’s a bailout, and the Ins. lobby doesn’t want to lose it.
All that work for nothing? Full court pressure is on.
The feeling’s mutual.
Bobzim is Tweety.
I love when howard dean told tweety if you look in the mirror you would see the fool. You Tweety
Are you saying that electing Coakley would have given us the PO? The reason she was voted down was to kill the senate bill which does NOT contain a PO…
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
This is the kinda action that gets results, Sister Jane, and the response from Rep. Kind’s office was interesting. In addition to the script, I stated that I was aconstituent activist in the Dem Party and that if Kind wanted to be re-elected he’d better look at Massachusetts. I got a rather “frightened” response that “I’m not authorized to speak for the Congressman on this issue” but when I requested that she pass the message that if he voted for anything without a public option and with the excise tax he wouldn’t be re-elected the staffer said ” Oh, I absolutely will”. I got the sense that the staffer knew what was up and was anxious to get ‘im the message, especially in this district where it’s his to loose unless he lets the Republicans beat ‘im with this issue. I also asked the staffer if she was getting other calls and she said “some”…I ain’t happy with that number but I’ve got five folks callin’ today and that’s more than the number a friends I got.
This is where FDL can move the mountain, Citizen Hamsher and if the Democrats loose either or both houses of Congress, the party will be wide open for progressive leadership after November. It is my contention that Obama is goin out to pink areas like Ohio (today) that he won in ’08 and he’s gunna find out that he can’t get anyone any votes except Republicans…when this sinks in to the corporate media and the ObamaRahma brain trust, there will be even more [moderated].
We can’t change the political direction of this administration without takin’ down Obama and I think he’s [moderated]…so be ready Sister, there’s gunna be plenty of room for new leadership in the party in a couple a weeks.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, WE CAN LOSE THIS BATTLE AND STILL WIN THE WAR!!
[Mod Note: Before you go all Moderator Where's My Comment -- 'keep the faith and pass the ammunition' loses its charm when you combine that with the language of violence.]
From Plum Line:
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/
And I’m sure he has access to polling that you and I haven’t seen.
When ISN’T it a lose/lose for progressives or liberals? It’s always going to be, because both parties set it up that way.
We’re the fall guy, despite our ideas never being implemented and in many cases heard.
You remember ‘we must not let the perfect become the enemy of the good’?
Do you ever remember anyone in the White House or Congress explain what the ‘perfect’ WAS?
Where? Here, where a GOP majority is better than 50% of a progressive agenda? Yeah, I missed the ‘in-touch’ logic of that and am indeed “out of it”.
Bet you make ‘em yourself, right? ; )
So far the polling data I have seen on the recent ‘Mass. Rebellion’ does not support voters being upset with either Healthcare Reform or the concept of Universal Coverage. In fact quite the opposite. There does appear to be disenchantment with the individual mandate and with the process as it played out (back room deals etc) Public Option appears to still appeal to a majority.
In fact, though this is anecdotal, several rather conservative colleagues told me they rather like the European models in which doctors have their education subsidized so they don’t accumulate so much debt – forces them to seek high paying end of medical practice – and I almost fell off my chair when they said “well at least in Europe they get something for all their taxes”! I think the media and the DC elites have misconstrued the public mood, perhaps on purpose so as to help a bail out of the insurance firms.
Indeed, I do. Good stuff.
Ahhh – never thought of that.
Then again – all I could think of, watching that argument (besides how rude matthews is, using yelling and interruption to “win”) was that he obviously pays no attention to the grass roots in the “blogosphere”, or he would know better than the crap he was spouting.
Anybody who was reading the leading progressive blogs – especially the comments – would have seen what was coming in Mass.
But the “serious” people in Dem politics are above that.
Politico didn’t say there aren’t 51 votes for reconciliation. They said there are not that many who have yet been willing to commit their name on a letter, in advance of knowing what that reconciliation would be. Two very, very different things.
Chance that a reconciliation sidecar is the way they resolve this: 3 in 4.
That’s pretty much what we’ve been saying here.
They better find it or go home.
I’m sure the people in Haiti who are digging through rubble in search of the living feel the same way.
I’ve felt the same way at work while cleaning up after people who were too sick to even make it to the toilet. You know, though, I did the work that needed to be done, and I didn’t get a living wage, health benefits, retirement plan,nor was I able to actually effect positive changes in workplace policies. Dems need to buckle down. The work of the People requires work horses, not show horses.
He performed the same dance with TARP. Quickly accepting the Hobson’s Choice once he had decided for himself there wasn’t any political will to do anything else, and then started justifying what “good” TARP was going to do.
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Single payer was never an option for the Dems because it would have frustrated too many special interests. Single payer puts a huge amount of pressure on Big Pharma, it greatly downsizes Big Insurance, and both of these groups shovel money to the Dems. Dems know where their bread is buttered, and despite an enormous positive opportunity for re-election were they to do so, they refuse because they want the money more than they want to do what’s right for the nation.
I guess I wonder why people don’t vote out of rational considerations? I do, and I can’t imagine doing it any other way. Maybe a question like that is outside the scope of this post, but it sure baffles me.
Plus, via Digby:
This won’t be the fault of Progressives, but indeedy, gonna get the blame.
I am ready to go third party. Progressive Party is where we are headed. I would work hard for that. I would work hard for low pay for that.
We need to save our democracy.
I agree completely. But we can shout that to the ends of the earth and the US Senate may just not give a damn.
Quite correct, but it requires tenaciousness, great patience, and an absence of hand-wringing.
Citizen mikesong:
I surely hope you’re pronostication is right Brother Mike….how ’bout a number for the Vikings and the Saints!!
Bayh losing his seat is the first good argument I’ve heard for passing the Senate bill ;-)
Agreed, that MA voters wanted more, not less, from this administration and were made apathetic by the constant whining about how this was all they could do when they wanted to do even less.
They disliked this administration’s preferred HCR because it fails to go far enough, just as this administration failed adequately to stimulate the economy in the midst of a massive recession with significant long term consequences, as it failed adequately to rein in bankster excesses.
Their apathy and angst is a variation on the meme that Obama is too conservative, not too liberal – the GOP and the media’s favorite take – and that things he cares most about, like George Bush, enable corporate success, not the success and well-being of average Americans.
Subtract all the “conserverdems” from our current majority and tell me if we would still have a majority.
What kind of HCR will there be without a Democratic majority?
See how that works?
Progressives can only have what we can convince the moderates and conservatives to support. That’s it. That’s the bottom line. And operating under any alternative reality will only elect more Scott Browns.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/22/opinion/reckonings-hearts-and-heads.html
http://www.slate.com/id/1918/
Allan Grason is no defender of The People.Just loud
Evidence of your sentiment via polling in my #121.
The progressives are the majority in the Senate and House amongst the Democrat caucus. Are you trying to tell me that the majority of the majority has no legislative leverage over the minority of the majority?
You make an excellent point. We can’t win. There IS NO WAY. Progressives in the Congress are just supposed to smile and nod while the ‘big boys’ make their deals and advance legislation that ends up being blamed on progressives for its unpopularity.
Liberals and progressives HAVE NO BUSINESS STAYING IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
Well, it’s important to understand that – emotion will trump logic for most people.
Not understanding that is why the Republicans have eaten our lunch for 30 years.
I used to feel the way you do – but believe me, even if you can’t “feel” the reasons – we’d better all accept them.
This is part of Obama’s “communication” problem (he wasn’t entirely wrong on that score).
He explains things rationally, using precise words, and a fair number of them.
People don’t hear him. At least the people he needs to reach and persuade.
Then a repub stands up and gives out the short, sweet, appeal to emotion, in the very same words that all the other Repubs are using, and people hear them. And they paint up signs, and put on silly hats, and head out to rallies or to vote, based on that emotional appeal.
If we don’t learn this ourselves, we are doomed.
In the end, it will be President Obama’s fault for failing to lead. The buck always stops there.
The President and All His Men can whine, whine, whine that it is the progressive’s fault, but no one will believe them but Fox employess.
If progressives go populist, they should have no problems. On top of this, I believe most progressives are from solidly Democratic districts anyway.
The people who will be hurting are the Blue Dogs and those running in districts that are more toss up or trend Republican. They have nothing to show voters but their screwups and grandstanding. As Truman said, and I think someone already quoted, why elect Republican lite when you can elect the real thing?
That is what he is trying to say but he is apolgizing for Obama and Rahm getting the bill they wanted all along.
If Obama put his muscle for even one second behind a public option that > 50% of the public wants, it would have been done. He never wanted it to begin with and he will pay the price for going agains the people. All Dems will pay the price.
Independents and Reps that gave him a chance will say well if we are not getting real reform we might as well go with the conservatives who won’t rock the boat too much and explode entitlements. That is what independents will say to themselves.
An Ohio newspaper released an early transcript of his speech this morning.
Did he really use the word “FIGHT” over 14 times? I guess the theme now is “I am fighting hard for you and will keep fighting for you, join me in the fight”
Hopefully he improvised a little.
I’ll bite. Send link for meaning of vapulative. It’s not in Websters, it’s not in the OED.
Did you invent it?
I’m not sure it’s that simple, but even if it is, shouldn’t we at least try to understand why that’s the case? If nothing else, it ought to enable us to frame rational messages in terms that will resonate more emotionally.
Indeed, many of these ‘conserverdems’ would lose an election if held today — which is why we should be organizing ‘now’ to retire or primary them.
So he is going to fight now? Lets hear / see it.
Is he fighting for a giveaway to insurance companies or real reform that is the question.
He’s in my top five to go. Really dislike him.
Indeed. And he’s got his rifle trained squarely on the left.
He’s itching for a fight, and he’s gonna fight, and he’s gonna show he can fight, but what people on FDL need to realize is that WE are the ones he’s going to be fighting. And let’s hope we’re all ready for it.
Where is the constituency FOR the individual mandate with IRS penalties?
Where is the constituency FOR the tax on premiums?
Where is the constituency FOR the unfunded mandate on the states for Medicaid expansion?
Where is the constituency FOR the bribes deployed to pass the magic wand unfunded Medicaid expansion?
Our new co-equal corporate persons are the only ones clamoring for those regressive solutions to financing health care on the backs of individuals.
Yup! And NOT folding….:)
Maybe Obama has started to “fight” because he sees himself losing to Huckabee or Romney in three years. That really makes him a lame duck already No? And with midterms coming up and not being able to do anything in congress…well what is the point?
exactly.
There are only 83 members of the House Progressive Caucus out of 435 seats total. Progressives cannot do one damn thing without moderates and conservatives.
Just trying to catch up I guess. The post Masaccio had few days back on healthcare insurance firms basically being worth only the goodwill on their balance sheets kinda tells it all doesn’t it? Employer based plans are tanking – lay offs don’t expand insurance sales. Individual plans increasingly too expensive for many or too costly for the insurance firms wall street bean counters. Money lost by insurance firms on all those mortgage backed securities hidden from view.
New York Times article today started to lay out the case that insurance firms actually better off with reform – if the Senate insurance bail out doesn’t pass the House, they will try another back door.
Calling progressives traitors is a great way to get them out to vote this year. But not as good as giving them real accomplishments that will inspire them to.
On a related note, Obama is out trying “reconnect” with people. His handlers think the problem is that he hasn’t adequately convinced people to accept what they don’t want. Idiots.
Not because it would have frustrated the special interests, but because the special interests would have killed it, straight out. Especially in light of the recent Supreme Court decision, do you really think that Pharma didn’t have the resources to kill the bill, and wouldn’t have, in the summer if they hadn’t been bought out? You think that the compromises made on this bill were because Obama agreed with every group that’s tried to kill HCR for the last 40some years?
The deck is always set against progressive change in the US. How can you not see that? The folks here have this malignant naivete that tells them that anyone who can’t deliver on the most maximalist progressive goals is a corporatist.
Real reform was never even a discussion in this debate. ‘Reform’ would mean to change the shape of something. And if we were genuinely going to change the shape of the health care system, we’d begin with single payer.
This is not reform. It’s more like tailoring a suit that fits really poorly to one that fits just slightly less poorly.
why don’t you just go away…If someone is paying you to disrupt and troll here then you should refund them and move on. Your Junior High Shtick is silly and not worthy of this site.
“and the wheels of the bus go round and round…”
Can we find the political playbook that says the best path to success is to constantly throw the activist-progressive base under the bus…
…AND THEN BURN IT?
This Prez is already getting tiresome.
That’s strange. Your assertion it was Coakley does not fit these facts:
1. She was ahead until Lieberman & Nelson fucked us on HCR. Then
2. The polling states that people did not turn out because they are disappointed with Obama’s performance.
Please provide a link to your assertion, or some other form of proof that is not the caps lock button on your keyboard.
Greed, Be Thou My God
How Wall Street Destroyed Health Care
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS
excerpt:
“The fate of the health care bill demonstrates the power of private lobbies. What was to be health care for Americans was instantly transformed into 30 million new patients for the private health insurance industry. The “solution” to tens of millions of Americans being unable to afford health care is a law that requires them to purchase a private health care policy or be annually fined. As most of these uninsured Americans cannot afford to purchase a private policy, the plan is for the federal government to use taxpayers’ money to subsidize their purchase of a policy from private companies.
In other words, tax money is being diverted to the pockets of private businesses. This is par for the course in “capitalist” America.
In today’s America, Karl Marx’s criticisms of capitalism are understated. Wherever one looks, the scene is one of the government using taxpayers’ money to enrich private interests. Taxes are collected from people who can barely make it, and the revenues are transferred to multi-millionaires and billionaires. The federal government piles debt on the backs of heavily-burdened and dispossessed Americans in order that investment banksters can pay annual bonuses that exceed the lifetime earnings of most Americans. ”
Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration.
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts01222010.html
Yes, thank you, and to be quite honest, DUH.
The cards are stacked against progressive change because it never gets advocated.
But while we’re at it, go ahead, please tell me how the Democratic Party isn’t corporatist.
They are “conservadems” because they are from conservative districts. Being conservative is why they were elected in the first place. Trying to “primary” them with a progressive will put a GOP ass in that seat.
Why does this have to be explained?
I am amazed that so many want this bill! Don’t you all realize that the objections don’t lie essentially with your health? How healthy do you think your children and children’s children will be under a system that has the government acting as collection agency for corporations?
Again from the top:
“The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism—ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.”
-FDR
Using the abridged, paper version of OED, I find the following:
vapulate – to beat or strike, to administer a flogging
OED-compact, Volume II, page 3591
You are looking at this from the point of the consumer. Wrong perspective:
Where is the constituency FOR the individual mandate with IRS penalties? Insurance companies, in pushing the cost of marketing & collection onto our Government.
Where is the constituency FOR the tax on premiums?Employers, in pushing employees into lower cost plans.
Where is the constituency FOR the unfunded mandate on the states for Medicaid expansion?In the MIC, in keeping the budget pressures off the DoD.
Where is the constituency FOR the bribes deployed to pass the magic wand unfunded Medicaid expansion?With the Senators.
Good luck trying to get progress outside it.
“The whole “fix it later” thing is a lie.”
___
That has been my view all along regarding this whole “we MUST take what few marginal improvement scraps we can get now and fix the legislation later.” It is at least equally if not more likely that various provisions the Karen bin al Ignani crowd don’t like will be [1] ignored, and then [2] quietly disembowled.
That’d be nice, but ultimately it’s pointless. The only thing we have control over is what WE, the progressives and liberal grassroots, do.
They’re going to fight us no matter what we do, because it’s all about posturing politics and saving face and looking good to a certain group for the establishment.
Next time someone criticizes you for depriving people of health care, remind them that no law has been signed into office. Nobody is GETTING health care now except those that are subject to a deliberately abusive system. And if they accuse you of holding up the process, remind them that Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson, and Obama are the ones who held up the process to make the bill more amicable to their corporate donors.
Remember that you’re fighting for something BETTER. You’re fighting for your fellow Americans. You’re fighting for what is right.
Don’t buy into the bullshit.
Yes, in the same class as “If you let me have sex with you, I will respect you later”.
Either Obama will or he’s gone. That’s the point, some people only learn when you get their attention with a twoxfour right between the eyes. Kill this fucking bill, deliver the message Obama better find the right path or Massechutts to Dems. Period. Ignoramouses on the SC just shoved another dagger into our Democracy, we won’t have many more chances.
There are no constituencies for insurance company giveaways, or bankster giveaways except for corporate constituencies.
Populism polls quite well and more to the left than right-hardwired media and DC will admit.
So primarying all the conservatives of either party with a strong populist message would be the smart thing to do if the goal is to move legislators in a more liberal direction.
Let me know how getting progress from within it is going for you, buddy. Because things look to be about the same from either side…
Kinda sad, isn’t it?
I am right there with you friend. I was originally for much more populist but not able to keep it in his pants Edwards. (Or at least appeared populist.)
I have long believed the only way to fix the mess is to put them out of business. Not because I am anti-business but because it is a fundamentally flawed way to care for people. Wrong incentives and a host of market failures leads to unhealthy expensive care that is not available when you need it most. Our long term prosperity is dependent upon fixing this problem. I suspect that is why some are holding their nose and wanting to vote for this abomination. I love that Jane wants to keep fighting and I am with her on that sentiment. The only way I can stomach a mandate is with the public option that may be cheaper. Remember it still may not be cheaper because it likely will have all the sick people in it.
We have been the most prosperous country in the world. That will not continue to be the case if we don’t address this problem. Making the problem worse will not help our plight. Paying out the ass for the same old crap product does not make the situation better it makes it worse in my opinion. What is the point of them not being able to reject you for insurance if you can’t afford it? Seriously this is already the case.
But they need to feel threatened. If they have to spend a lot of money to fight in a primary and we can peel off enough votes they just might decide to be Democrats. And if they already vote with the Rs there’s really not much difference. I certainly prefer to see a D after the name but we aren’t getting anything good from them anyway and they are stopping everything they can for money.
You nailed it on this guy…he is a disruptor here and he flip flops on issues all the time to break up intelligent discussions.
Excuse me, but the problem is that they are barely delivering the minimalist progressive goals. The malignant naivete with too many rank and file Democrats is that caving in to the actions of corrupt Democratic politicians is a winning strategy for anything.
Ding, ding, ding. LOL.
It’d be an interesting strategy, but the big guns would come out and smother any progressive or liberal candidates, which actually might not be a bad thing.
You have to remember, both the Republicans and the Democrats are terrified of one thing and one thing only. Progressives or liberals who will fight for their shit like lions and NOT sit politely at the table with their hands folded playing the ‘bullpartisanshit’ game. However, it might be a good idea ANYWAY because it would force both sides to come out against progressives and liberals, and that would cause major damage to the myth that Democrats and Republicans are working for different goals.
How’d that work in MA?
If you are going to pretend you have any knowledge or insight then try spelling the man’s name correctly.
Alan Grayson
The populist won, the corporatist lost.
Polling data supports the leftward anger. See my #121.
Rep. David Wu’s office took my call, and wouldn’t comment other than to say that, “Rep. Wu is committed to passing healthcare reform, and getting it on President Obama’s desk to sign into law.”
I told the staffer that if Rep. Wu forced me to buy for-profit private health insurance, I would personally run against him in 2012 just to disrupt his incumbency.
SCOTUS just made the Big Guns significantly larger and more lethal.
Lovely. The lemmings are quite proud of themselves today. On the one hand we have every expert on the progressive side, and on the other we have parliamentary/legislative maestro Hamsher telling us all what’s what, and exercising her only power, which is to destroy that progress which she (who most likely has insurance) finds not worth making. How noble.
Let’s just get a few things straight: nearly everyone on the Democratic side wants the reconciliation fixes (mas or menos some notable legitimate disagreement). These include fixes that favor special interests parochial concerns, (ehem, labor), and those that actually pertain to some of the more problematic of the Senate bills flaws, like affordability. Everyone with half a brain realizes that these fixes are not necessary to make the legislation worth doing (see the opinions of those who’ve actually studied this). And every informed person knows that belaboring the process at this point is quite likely to kill the legislative initiative entirely.
At the bottom of this blog’s lunacy is the idea that health care is not worth doing without the public option. This is not supported on policy grounds, but no matter. At the bottom of that is the idea that health care is not worth doing unless it is close to perfect. That is not supported by the history of HCR efforts, nor by basic common sense as it pertains to voters manifestly afraid of large big bang changes (‘keep your hands off my Medicare, insurance, etc.’).
Indeed, that approach is diametrically at odds with the approach of conservatives whose methods lemmings here insist they are faithfully following. Conservatives take policy victories, bank them and their momentum, and the trust that demonstrated leadership and ideas in action builds with the electorate, and turn them into more victories. Or at least that is what has turned this country so far right in the last 25 years.
So the lemmings don’t have any facts or the tactics or the strategy or anything resembling thought on their side. But hey, what’s that against some good momentum and self-righteous pig headedness?
there’s nothing so corrupt in the relationship between Corporations and Government that a popular uprising couldn’t fix.
It’s almost that time.
Wrong. The difference is who has the majority, and if the GOP has the majority, there will be no HCR of any kind.
I just see it – correctly – that the progressives here are cutting our collective nose off to spite our face. Very bad politics.
Gee, you’d think people would get this through their heads already…
But no, more and more are just ‘COME ON GUYS ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE THEY’RE NOT ALL CORPORATISTS THEY JUST ARE REAL ABOUT WHAT THEY CAN DO’ And I tell you that that’s bullshit. They have analysts and pollsters and strategists galore. If they WANT to do something, they find a way to do it.
Democrats are just as guilty of thinking their voters are stupid and manipulable as Republicans are. Well I, for one, refuse to be used as a tool to harm my fellow Americans and enrich private corporations, many of which aren’t even based in this country.
Don’t like it, Democratic leadership? Too bad. You’ve had your chances and you’ve refused to take every single one of them.
Thanks Dream,
Never have bought BS, never will.
I hated this whole debate the second they refused to even utter the scary, scary words UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE!
I’m also going to start carrying around mini-dictionaries so they actually know what the word SOCIALISM really means. Geez.
“we have parliamentary/legislative maestro Hamsher telling us all what’s what, and exercising her only power, which is to destroy that progress which she (who most likely has insurance) finds not worth making. How noble.”
____
Cheap shot, that.
Wasn’t “I’ll fight for you” Gore’s thing in 2000? In his turn, I think he lifted it from a former president.
Just found this: Campaign 2000: The Lover vs. The Fighter, Time (Oct 30, 2000).
Fortunately for Obama and whatever constituency he’s serving, he’s a far better salesman of populist-sounding bullshit than was Gore.
So you think a mandate without any cost controls stopping the insurance companies form raising rates through the roof is the way to go then it seems.
Because that’s what you get without a public option forcing the insurance leeches to actually compete
Do YOU have all the facts MARJORAM?
In other words – Did you read the bill? Either bill?
And don’t come back at me with verbose insults please because that is the oldest, saddest, trick in the book when you don’t really want to answer a direct question.
Just a simple yes or no will do.
DID YOU READ EITHER BILL?
you’d be my huckleberry, Nathan.
What State do I move to?
I wouldn’t use the word “fortunately” anymore, I have now replaced that with “frighteningly”
Given the fact that he has managed to turn the progressive base on each other, I would say “frightening” indeed.
Corporatist, like “overton window”, is another one of those buzzwords used here that doesn’t mean what you think it means.
There are a lot of reasons why really progressive messages don’t get the hearing they deserve. One of them is that we have a profoundly anti-humanistic corporate culture that does crazy shit like bouncing Donahue from MSNBC because he speaks against the Iraq War. This sets a tone. People who want progressive goals are ridiculed and their every eccentricity is blown up and played over and over in corporate media. As in the Dean Scream. I know you know this. Getting progressive goals accomplished is not done by creating some hypothetical progressive party in a country that’s been two party for pretty much its entire existence, or by primarying Bernie Sanders (and, by the way, lives in pretty much the only state where a non-millionaire who belongs to neither party can get elected to the Senate).
And another reason progressive messages so frequently don’t get the hearing they deserve is because the standard-bearers of progressivism are too often people who are more interested in feeling justified than in achieving real progressive goals.
Yada yada yada yada.
While I respect your apologism for the incremental ‘not really reform but we’ll call it that anyway’, come now.
You honestly think that what’s on the table is absolutely the best we can do, and you’re quite simply wrong. There are so many preconceived notions in your statement that don’t fit the bill (for one, large changes? We’re not changing much of anything. And Seniors saying ‘keep your government hands off my Medicare’ is based more on ignorance and deceit than it is any GENUINE policy response) that I’m shocked you think your wordy condescension is somehow logically and reasonably superior to the very real and good arguments advanced here on FDL.
Do let me know how your ‘the system works if you just let it’ thinking gets you with the whole health care reform effort, okay?
Agreed! Jane’s great at taking on those who bullshit and disrupt.
I also agree with your point @ 176. If someone’s paying him, he should refund them and move on. I’m not opposed to trolls, but this one’s not worthy of this site. FDL deserves far better trolls! ;^)
That’s a convenient myth. Even regressive districts deserve a choice between progress and regress. Better to run RealDems who actually believe in their own party’s platform than DINOs who don’t. And if voters choose the Repub (even it’s not certain they always would), that’s better than electing Republidems who vote with the GOP anyway while screwing up the Democratic caucus with division. Get Republicans out of the Democratic Party and into the GOP where they belong.
Frightening to us, sure. For Obama and whoever his constituency is, I guess it’s fortunate…
If the Blue Dogs don’t feel that they have anything to worry about we have no leverage. I don’t want them to feel safe. I want them to realize that the corporations may give them money but that WE do the voting. I am tired of feeling invisible and I’m really mad at the Dems. Why shouldn’t they have to answer to me? Have they read their own platform?
Wow, a full court press by some to bully through passage of the Senate bill, complete with insulting nicknames for all who disagree.
Break up the HCR package into winnable pieces: One bill for prohibition of exclusions and refusal to insure persons with pre-existing conditions. One bill to prohibit life-time limits on benefits. One to eliminate the anti-trust exemption. One for drug-reimportation. One to nail down limits on patents for biologics. These are truly popular with the public and maybe our bought-and-paid-for Congress will actually pass at least some of them.
Then a couple of bills that, because they affect the budget, can go through reconciliation: Medicare option for anyone age 50 and above; Medicaid expansion to 200% of poverty levels.
And leave the individual mandate on the cutting-room floor, with a silver stake through its evil heart. Unless you want the Dems to die electorally for years. And, by the way, also the public – that’s all we need is a huge tax increase, enforced by the IRS, for shitty “insurance coverage.”
Finally, Jane is absolutely right that “fix it later” is a lie. I remember, as you young’uns probably don’t, that the telecommunications “reform” of 1996 was going to be “fixed later” to provide for free TV and radio air-time for political candidates. I’m sure we all remember how well that has worked out for us.
If you believe that the Senate’s POS bill would ever be fixed later, I can sell you the Brooklyn Bridge or seashore property in Kansas.
Show me the ‘real progressive goals’ advanced in the current healthcare legislation and I’ll debate with you on that. I’m not interested in being justified, I’m interested in ACTION. In accomplishing things. And when I set out to accomplish things, I don’t automatically concede 98% of the game to the moneyed interests and corporately bought officials who will then dictate to me what will be what.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Progressives and liberals have no business working for any side but their own. The current health care bills will not make things better for the common people, they will foist more headaches and problems onto them in future and if progressives and liberals sign OFF on the legislation that created it, they will earn the scorn of the people, and that is simply a STUPID way to proceed.
dear tej ……
i agree wth u however ….
i don’t think it was a tactic
My sentiments exactly.
You’ll be getting a whole lot of nothing if the Senate or House bill passes as-is.
Ha ha, too true!
The lemmings are those who are blindly following the Democratic Party off the same cliff Martha Coakley just plunged over. People, and not just progressives, want REAL health insurance reform with a cost containment mechanism. They aren’t going to buy a pig in a poke in November.
I suggest you help bring about the real change Obama and the Democrats promised rather than attacking those who are doing it.
Ah, Snyoia, ’twas I who introduced the word “vapulation”, it is deliberately obscure, unknown even to most professors of the mother tongue.
It simply means “flogging”, but is appropriately Obamaesque in its “newness” and apparent “poetry”.
It sounds nicer than “whipping” and you can even drop it on the unknowing, saying, “I say, Barack, you, as a true fabulist, deserve an intense vapulation from the rest of us”, politically speaking, of course.
;~DW
Considering how language is being intentionally mangled and made meaningless a few words like vapulation leaves the special “them” scratchin’ their wee, pointy heads …
The lesson learned in NY-23 and MA is that this tactic will end up getting the other party elected. If we adapt to the political reality that it takes moderates and conservatives to hold the majority, we can get at least some of what we want. If we insist that every Dem toes the progressive line all the time, we get nothing.
It’s really that simple.
So, yeah…
All this arguing on the internet stuff you guys got going is lovely, but ah, did anybody call their representative???
It’s Friday, you know.
C’mon, let’s get the show on the road, hey? All you have to do is google their name.
(yes I did)
I’m sorry, why would a mandate push premiums through the roof? There are good reasons to believe just the opposite, but in any case, the causality is convoluted.
Are you aware that Switzerland has a private insurance system, and spends a fraction of what we spend on health care for truly universal coverage? Do you have an argument at the ready as to why our insurance companies are fundamentally different than theirs?
What I think is that covering 30 million uninsured, 40,000 of which DIE EVERY YEAR, because they don’t have coverage is important. You people don’t seem to give two turds about that. I also think that ending the most abusive practices of the insurance industry- pre-existing conditions, lifetime maximums and surreptitious recission- are quintessentially just changes in the law. These things victimize people to whom tragedy has struck. And you folks are cavalierly tossing that in the toilet whilst displaying a disgusting sense of entitlement. “How could those horrible people be angry at us”.
Well, I have insurance and am healthy, but a good friend of mine got cancer while living abroad does not and is fucked. So you people [Edited by Mod. Argue facts not insults]
Many came from States that voted for Obama — they voted for ‘Change’, one change they wanted was no more corporate dominance in DC. So with recent polling in those same States looks like they could handle changing their Senators as well. A populist Senator against DINO republican Nelson I think has a pretty good chance in the current political climate.
LOL
Vapulate: How to avoid the Mod. Censure.
and the _______s will continue.
Absolutely. This is a perfectly workable strategy and it would lead to an outpouring of popular support, the VOTES of which would trump anything the health insurance, PhrMa, et al could send up to oppose it. They can spend money, but they can’t vote. And it’s difficult to tell somebody ‘VOTE AGAINST THE GUY THAT BANNED DENIAL OF PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS’ no matter WHO the voter is (unless they’re living on Planet Teabag, that is.)
The problem is, that Democrats don’t really want to do this. Accomplishing these good part of the package without the parts that benefit the industry they’d be targeting would lose them any and all corporate support from those industries, and they’re not going to do it. They simply stubbornly continue to believe that the path to their salvation lies with having more campaign money than the Republicans, and they’re going to put that above ANYTHING else.
You are onto something here I think. The two party system is what we are talking about fighting. We are fighting the idea that the two are different. IT is very difficult to break into the two party system, but it seems to me it is time to have a third party to move the Dems to do what is right for the people.
And with your strategy, you will get nothing of what you want all of the time. Remember, it took ONE Senator to eliminate practically all of the major progressive/liberal initiatives in the bill, and he did so simply because our side was excited about them. (Remember the Medicare Buy In?)
You may be happy to simply scrap at the feet of people who have no real common cause with progressive or liberal goals, but I, for one, am not. I welcome the fight.
Yup! And somewhere in Washington there are scared, rattled, interns crying.
“Break up the HCR package into winnable pieces: One bill for prohibition of exclusions and refusal to insure persons with pre-existing conditions. One bill to prohibit life-time limits on benefits. One to eliminate the anti-trust exemption. One for drug-reimportation. One to nail down limits on patents for biologics. These are truly popular with the public and maybe our bought-and-paid-for Congress will actually pass at least some of them.”
___
Interesting. That was in fact how LBJ achieved his aggregate “Great Society” legislation. But, then, he was no congressional rookie. He knew how to quietly twist arms.
That sort of thing doesn’t help to make your case.
“People, and not just progressives, want REAL health insurance reform with a cost containment mechanism.”
Exactly.
If they have an R by their name. The only reason there is a D in that seat is because he’s conservative. A “populist” Republican in Nelson’s seat gets zero progressive policy enacted.
Nice Straw Man there. Swiss model basic health insurance is heavily regulated, essentially a public utility.
I am aware that Sweden has far less expensive health insurance. Primarily because they are not for profit insurance companies.
If you are advocating nationalizing all the US insurance companies so that they become not for profit and aren’t paying multi million bonuses to deny care, then good on ya.
But as the Senate bill now stands, there is NOTHING in it that stops the insurance companies from raising rates far beyond any subsidies the congress may authorize.
Exactly.
Yep.
I think you are under a misapprehension. Progressive does not mean liberal Democrat. I am vastly unimpressed by Democrats. I see little difference between Democrats who want to slash Medicare in a healthcare bill and Social Security via a deficit commission and Republicans who only wish they could get away with such things. I see no difference between Democrats who would restrict a woman’s right to choose in a healthcare bill and Republicans who would do it through the courts. I see no difference between Democrats who whore for the financial industry and Republicans who do too. I see no difference between Republicans who start costly, pointless imperial wars and the Democrats who continue and expand them. I am also not impressed with Democrats because they have shown they can not govern. All they seem capable of doing is blaming progressives for their failures. So all your talk is exactly that. Anyone who backs Democrats these days is progressive in name only PINO.
Short reply: Switzerland’s private insurance system is heavily regulated and enforced/protected, and their regulation was not written for and by the insurance companies.
Also, remembering Switzerland has many other factors which makes it difficult to compare etc — state rights, population, taxes, mean income etc.
Also, in the current Senate bill there are no cost or regulatory controls that would ‘guarantee’ those 30 million could keep continued coverage.
Educate yourself and then maybe you will talk sense.
Wasn’t part of the problem with this approach though (supposedly) that it could potentially render each individual bill useless.
The argument I have heard against this is a) timing b) assurance that all pieces would pass because a lot of the elements have overlap.
But if we are going to scale back and do this incrementally, I would personally like to see them start with Anti-Trust, Drug Importation and an incremental expansion of Medicare.
I’m very sorry to hear about your friend.
However, insurance companies in Switzerland are INCREDIBLY tightly regulated. The government is more than the larger entity, and is actively and constantly engaged in making sure that prices are fair, effective, and provide for the common good. The government uses the insurance companies as a public utility instead of simply acknowledging them as private for profit companies. The bills being advanced bear no resemblance to Switzerland’s system in effect at all.
And also, one thing I’d like to say to you about the 30 million uninsured in the nation. Passing the bill won’t eliminate the uninsured, it’ll drop them by about 10 million in the Senate bill, and many won’t actually be able to VISIT the doctor with their new insurance because they can’t afford the copays and the medicine and the out-of-pocket costs. So PLENTY OF PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO DIE FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON AS BEFORE. Now, of course, I could simply get on board the whole process because a few percent less people will be uninsured and a few less people will die than before, but you know what I’d have to be okay with to do so? I’d have to say ‘here, private insurance, take these oodles and gobs of public money to enrich yourselves at our expense. I mean, you did such a good job of helping people before, that I just think the solution should be giving you MORE money. Thanks for all you did for the sick and dying and poor!’
Sorry, but I’m not willing to do that. And let me remind you of another thing. None of these bills are making health care a right. They’re just expanding the ‘market’. And in a market, life and death can be bought and sold.
I don’t consider Justice Sotomayor “nothing”. I don’t consider the EPA actually doing their job vis-a-vis Mountain Top Removal mining “nothing”. I don’t consider having gays added to federal hate crime laws “nothing”.
I think you get the point.
“Are you aware that Switzerland has a private insurance system, and spends a fraction of what we spend on health care for truly universal coverage? Do you have an argument at the ready as to why our insurance companies are fundamentally different than theirs?”
Sure, in Switzerland it’s illegal to make profit on basic health care coverage. Insurance companies profit on premium plans. And before you parrot back Nate Silver’s bullshit about insurance companies having wee little 3.7% margins please read a few corporate earnings statements and learn how companies expense things like marketing, executive compensation, Gulfstream 5s, LOBBYING, stock buybacks, dividends, and other things that have nothing whatsoever to do with delivering healthcare.
DID YOU READ THE BILL?
There’s zero progressive policy being enacted under Nelson’s watch now.
Except that Bayh already voted for the Bill. He won’t vote for another healthcare bill. He certainly isn’t going to vote for any reconcilliation.
But you’re ignoring folks like Webb and DiFi who have cold feet. Exactly which 50/51 Senators do you think are going to vote for a *better* bill that has all of what we want? Which are going to do any “fixes” to make it better?
You’re also skipping the issue if it dies now, when do you expect it to magically pop back up to pass with all the goodies that we progressives dream of? And how you expect it to pass in the face of Citizens? You think the money tossed at it this time around that swamped us was a ton? That was with folks like Big Pharma playing moderately “nice” because they bought off the White House.
If it dies, it’s not coming back any time soon. And things like recision and prior conditions as stand alone items will just get watered down in a fashion that lets Big Health slide around them.
Granted, if the point is “Let’s Get To The Bottom Faster” is the goal, then push for the entire process to die now. I tend to think the notion that we’re going to get the swift and things will magically get fixed into single payer is a mything. The reality is that as we get closer to national bankruptcy, Medicare will get gutted even futher to the point of nothingness first. It’s an easy sellout to craft to people: Welfare State, and I Got Mine. Congress won’t care because it’s a whole lot of people who don’t vote in the numbers that the I Got Mine and Rich do.
After that, or likely at the same time, Medicare will constantly be cut back in small ways. More stuff offloaded like Medicare Advantage, and without the ability to negotiate, drug costs for them will continue to skyrocket… and to keep the total costs of Medicare down, coverage for that will tighten. “Get Sick & Die”.
The attempts will be made to “contain costs” by first cutting entitlements. Christ, we’re already seeing it. It’s not about cutting costs that Big Health charges, but by cutting the amount that Uncle Sam picks up.
And that will but more time before the healthcare system bankrupts is, but will also futher destroy the safety net. Hell, Jane… you know what’s going on out here in California as much as I do. We’ve been destroying the safetynet for decades, and Arnold & Co. are trying to put the final nails in it. We’ll see the same thing on a federal level, and already are.
So yeah… burn down the house. It’s not going to be rebuilt for us. And for all our activism, we *can’t*. This process has nicely shown us how little power we had even when things were going “well” in 2009. They’re not going well now, and with Citizen’s it’s only going to get worse.
John
That comment is a thing of beauty to me. I could not agree more.
Yeah, I hear ya. That was then (LBJ) this is now. So, the analogy may not be totally apt.
Clear-cutting a rain forest gives you “something to build on” too – but it happens to be completely counterproductive if your objective is a healthy ecosystem, cleaner air, or a sustainable supply of valuable timber.
Just what hidden crutch or balance sheet save for Wall Street, concealed from the American people, by way of a new flood of insurance company profits, is driving the Democratic Party’s fanatic push for the Obama/Vested Interest health insurance-entrenching bill?? A bill being pushed almost as forcibly by Party leadership, in the teeth of now-undeniable public disapproval, as the George W. Bush PR campaign for the Oil Company-enriching invasion of Iraq.
I called Jim McDermott half an hour ago, and rported it.
But does anyone know what this could mean?
TIA
“I spoke with Anna at noon. Stuck to the script.
She kept repeating that Jim would not have a vote. That Pelosi had chosen certain members to vote on HCR and he wasn’t one of them. That I should call back Monday when they had more info. I kept trying to clarify(WTF could she mean?) but she kept responding that Jim had no say.
I spoke re. reconciliation, sidecar…Anna stuck to her story!
????”
Sotomayor is hardly indicative of genuine progress. They put a liberal on the Supreme Court to replace a liberal and to maintain the prior balance. This ISN’T some big new shakeup in SCOTUS. I’m glad she’s there, but let’s not pretend her individual presence fundamentally changes the makeup of the court.
And as for mountaintop blasting? The EPA just dropped their suspension, the plans are back online. Sorry about that one.
Gays becoming part of hate crimes laws while DODT and DADT are still on the table and nothing is being done makes things kind of pointless. Yeah, I guess people that attack us for our sexual orientation can face tougher punishments, but when the government does it, it’s absolutely legal.
And I am going to guess this person is reacting to sound bites and has no real clue what kind of Trojan horse the bill really is.
Nobody wants to read the damn thing but everyone certainly has a strong opinion …and the rest of us can go to hell, how fantastically persuasive an argument is that?
Has it occurred to you that a shitty bill is not actually an improvement, but a worsening?
The wimps in Congress will never, never, ever FIX this horrible Senate bill. It’s just not the way they are wired.
Yes Swiss system is fundamentally different because they have very very tight regulations on what insurance companies can and cannot do. They are regulated more like public utilities, like the electric company. This is a huge difference. We have insurance companies making 20% profit. No electiric companies make 20% profit.
‘Cave, cave, compromise, condescend, cave, capitulate, condescend, cave, cave.’
The Holy Words of the Democratic Party these days.
The Senate bill is worse than no bill at all, and much more damaging in November.
I’m not delusional enough to think I can do what every progressive health care expert has failed to which is to point out the glaring holes in their fatuous policy arguments. Just look at all the posts asserting I don’t know what I’m talking about and they, not the 70 some odd academic experts, who you know, have actually studied this thing, and are actually qualified, (including btw the guy who thought up the public option in the first friggin place), knew what for what.
So no, I’m not here to do any persuading. I’ll leave delusions of that scale to Jane Hamsher and the rest of the Pied Pipers at FDL who see this as leading to great progressive majorities in both houses of Congress at some glorious point in the future. The underpants knomes theory of how to make progressive change.
This braintrust are doing their part to persuade critical progressive members of Congress, already hanging on by a thread to reality, to scuttle HCR. I fear that may be enough to succeed, given the precarious place we are. And I duly plan on communicating just exactly how I feel about them for their efforts, whether or not it wins me any FDL popularity contests. Frankly, I’d rather be the most popular person at a leper colony.
So the lemmings don’t have any facts or the tactics or the strategy or anything resembling thought on their side. But hey, what’s that against some good momentum and self-righteous pig headedness?
So, let me get this straight. I’m supposed to bail out a president who has broken almost every major promise made to me (who voted for him), cut secret deals with the sleazeballs who are victimizing me, undercut EVERY senator and congressman who stood up for my interests throughout the process, and is still too cowardly to tell House progressives that he wants them to do what you want them to do? To help him get a bill that, when signed, I believe will provide the grounds for destroying my party in November? All because you say it’s better than nothing?
I think you — and all the experts you cite — should strike the terms “tactics” and “strategy” from your vocabulary until you learn what they mean.
But it wasn’t another Roberts or Scalia, was it? There are real benefits to holding the line.
Judge Chambers and the EPA decided that it would be better for everyone in the long run if they didn’t let CONSOL gain the perceived upper hand by firing 500 workers in this economy. I agree. But they aren’t rubber stamping permits now,and that’s progress.
No matter how you try to spin it into a negative, adding gays to the federal hate crime law is very much progress.
“Now what kind of friggin’ idiot would vote for Brown because the current bill doesn’t go far enough?”
Let’s see, Brown got about 50K votes more than McCain while Coakley got 900,000 votes less than Obama. Nearly 1/3 of 2008 voter’s stayed home almost all of them Democrats. There must be something they don’t like about the party in general or the candidate in particular and doubt that it her opinion of the Red Sox.
I know what’s in the bill.
I also know what you all should realize: there is nothing *better* that is going to pass.
There isn’t a single shot that a magic bill is going to pop up that will get passed. Zero.
So the chance of covering 95% of the country, rather than see that 40M of uninsured more to 50M to 100M, isn’t going to happen.
You all do realize that if we don’t expand coverage to near universiality that the march will go in the other direction. It already is with the job losses, the lack of job creation in positions that have health insurance, and the growing meme of Budget Reform a/k/a Entitlement Reform.
Medicare & Medicade Expansion through reconcilliation isn’t going to happen. Deep down if you take a step back and see how insanely freaked out the Dems are, you’ll see that it simply isn’t going to happen. There aren’t 50/51 Senators to create such a massive entitlement expansion right now. That’s even assuming there are enough non-freaked out members of the House who are going to do it.
And if it doesn’t happen by November, it isn’t happening because we are going to get our asses kicked given the way the party is acting. There are seats like Boxer that are getting *that* close to coming into play, with potentially a teabagger coming into play. Grasp that these Senate losses aren’t easy to overcome: it’s a seat out of out hands for 6 years, and given what the GOP is running on this year, it’s a vote that will *never* in those six year vote for healthcare reform… except to scale back entitlements.
Senate Bill = Mediocre
But that fails to cop to:
House Bill = Mediocre
On a scale of 1-100, neither of them is close to even 33 on the progressive scale of Single Payer being 100. Both are massive give aways to Big Health simply by letting it continue to exist. We all know this.
But no Senate Bill = 1: the Status Quo.
Wait, it’s worse than that:
Entitlement Reform
Which is in the negatives.
Seriously… wake up to what coming. No expansion of coverage. No reform. Massive slashing of Entitlements. More companies moving in the direction of reducing and offloading coverage.
It’s not just defeat. It sets up the “fiscal conservatives” to go on the attack. From $900B in coverage to -$900B in “savings”.
John
Sadly, you’re right. There is literally nothing we as voters and activists and bloggers can do to force more left-wing policy. The powers that be won’t have it. They’ll continue to choose to enrich the private sector at the expense of the public sector.
We’ve done our part, we’ve fought our fights, and it does no good. The system isn’t designed so that Congresspeople actually listen to their constituents. They listen to anyone who will get them re-elected, and they know for a fact that even if liberals and progressives aren’t happy with them, they’ll vote for them to keep scary Republicans out. THERE IS NOTHING that we can do to intimidate, embarass, extol, or extort out of the current Democratic crop that will cause them to change their behavior or votes. To truly do so would require leadership from within the party that was willing to roll over and smack down the Joe Liebermans and the Ben Nelsons and the Blanche Lincolns et al. But instead of them being smacked, WE get smacked. President Obama isn’t interested in leading. We are quite literally alone in this.
I get a lot of this too. Usually I get an intern (see comments earlier about how I make them cry) and they usually get really frazzled when pressed for an answer.
The standard I keep getting is “Congressman So-and-So supports Health Care Reform”
The intern in Adam Schiff’s office go so frazzled when I pressed her for information she nearly started crying. So I thanked her and hung up.
I just don’t have it in me to pressure a clueless intern. Now if I had been able to make Adam Schiff CRY, I would be pretty proud of myself today.
Another such word might be “Godwit”.
Now a Godwit is a wading bird with a long, upward curving bill …
But who is to say that Godwits (or God-twits) in (ahem) the form of featherless, non-flying bipeds are not putting on an act before a certain judge in California, wading happily into the slime of ignorant arrogance or arrogant ignorance (those are easy to confuse and I’ve never been quite clear as to the distinctions between them).
You KNOW because you read it?
Really, and you are OK with the 100+ pages that re-writes the IRS code on the Middle and Lower classes?
Really?
That’s fine. Your goal is to hold progressives accountable for not supporting the bill, and you’ve got every right to do that. In fact, I quite support your right to do so. But don’t think that just because you can snipe at us for what we’re doing, that you’re going to affect anything in the health care bill. We didn’t write it. We haven’t been let in on it. We don’t have any policy ponies in this race. Progressives and liberals are NOT in charge of the HCR process and we’ve got very little effective ability to alter any of it.
You can be the most popular person at a leper colony, but I have a feeling most of us aren’t going to capitulate like most of the Democrats do.
“THERE IS NOTHING that we can do to intimidate, embarass, extol, or extort out of the current Democratic crop that will cause them to change their behavior or votes.”
Massachusetts was a pretty good shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbGEYSY42No
; )
dreamsofprogress, I think it’s actually [Edited by Mod. Do NOT call names].
You are right that the Dems do not really WANT to break up the HCR package and pass the best parts only. One would hope, though, that at least a few of our Congresscritters now have the fear of God (i.e., the People) in mind, because of the drubbing the Dem Establishment suffered in Massachusetts on Tuesday. Indeed, it seems that maybe even Barack is learning this, too.
So, even though my proposal is not likely to ultimately succeed, I think it would be a good way to try to reduce the pressure on Progressives to just pass the Senate POS, and also to focus on the best SUBSTANCE of the HCR proposals. My proposal would, I hope, put the pressure on the bad guys, where the pressure belongs and help the public see who are really the good guys and the bad guys.
Thanks. I kept thinking, “Are you a temp?”
Jim’s staff is usually spot on-informed and pleasant. Anna was neither.
There is nothing better than these bills that will get advanced under the current system EVER, John.
Yes, it’s take this Health Care Effort or accept the status quo, and quite frankly, I’d rather have the status quo and let it fall apart quicker than to create a system that simply delays its collapse by using genuine need and concerns of real, vulnerable people to bolster itself. I’m not okay with putting real people on the sacrificial altar of Benny Hinn Health Insurers, Inc., who pretend that their voodoo is helping people only to find out three months later they’re dead.
Your comment refers back ultimately to my proposal for piece-by-piece passage of the best components of HCR – I don’t see how most of my proposed small bills would be meaningless, because my whole point is to separate HCR into discrete SELF-SUFFICIENT components. For example, drug reimportation simply is not dependent on pre-existing conditions legislation, or vice-versa; nor is repeal of anti-trust exemption dependent on Medicare at 50. And so on. So, we should press for these very popular pieces and force the Republicans and Establishment Democrats to oppose them, one by one.
If not Obama then WHEN will someone with balls get in the White House and do something very honest and simple?
U.S. President says, “My fellow Americans, the health care debate in Washington has once again turned into a fiasco. As I said early last year I would veto any bill that did not make it so all American families can have health care without the worry of losing their home or their childrens college education. For this reason I say now I will veto this bill as it now stands. To all my fellow Americans that consider themselves Republicans or Conservatives, I will now personally fight in Congress to get a bill passed that will make it so that your aging mother or father will get the best care possible without costing you your home. A bill that will not leave you hopeless with the news that your child has a rare and deadly disease that you simply cannot afford to pay to fight it. A bill that will make it so that the business you and your family built from scratch can afford to give its employees raises due to the saving in health insurance. I know you believe in LIFE. And so do I. I believe life is too important to be treated as a profit center. Our bodies are our own and should not be traded and sold for the profit of another. Though capitalism is an important part of our past and future the health insurance industry conflicts with the respect for life. Please over the next week or so discuss this with your families and see if you can all agree that this ONE industry costs us too much and should be replaced by a single payer system funded by the U.S. tax payer, but ran by the NGO The Red Cross. Once you have made up your mind go to http://www.whitehouse.gov and vote on the front page if you support this idea or not. I already know the Democrats of this country would support me in this. Will you?”
I absolutely agree, this is a wonderful strategy.
BUT, Democrats are not willing to use it.
:-) Oregon. Portland to be exact. Oregon’s 1st District. You’d love it here. We’re about 25 years ahead of the rest of the country on progressive environmental policy and urban development.
Every time I travel around the country I’m always shocked that major metro areas don’t even have recycling programs as robust as what was around here back when I was 7-years old; if they even have one at all. In my opinion, it’s completely pathetic. It clearly works, we have the models for how to do it in urban, suburban, and rural regions. Bah… just aggravates me even thinking about it.
“For example, among Obama supporters who ended up voting for Brown in the special election, 82% support the public option, according to the poll.”
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/77133-progressives-say-mass-makes-case-for-public-option
You’d think a simple common sense solution like that would come up in people’s minds, don’t you?
Sad thing is, it probably has, but Democrats know that such an approach would amount to declaring war on private insurers, and that private insurers would declare war right back. And they haven’t got the balls to fight that battle.
So why are you here?
Failure to pass an awful insurance-lobbyist bill that’s hugely unpopular doesn’t actually sound like failure to me. But of course the media will spin it as the downfall of progressive ideas.
Bobzim
You make an excellent point. We have to many Dem transformers in congress remember Obama he talks like a progressive and governs like a republican.
What progressives must do is learn from the conserverdem trash, we progressives must talk like conserverdems on the campaign trail and when we get to congress transform into real progressives.
Bobzim again your point about the conserverdem HCR scam bill. Yes this is the handy work of conserverdems like Ben Nelson. Ben Nelson being the Moron he is killed Health Care. I don’t think other states want to help pay for health care in Nebraska, the Ben Nelson deal along was a major disaster for the Senate HCR scam Bill.
Bobzim what good are conserverdems? Like you said above they are worthless. Ask Obama, the conserverdem economic plan is a complete disaster.
Bobzim we real progressive must learn how to deceive, lie, and lie some more, so we can get elected as conserverdems and than transform into progressives once we get to Washington D.C.
Ask Ben Nelson the conserverdem what the people in MASS thought about his sweet heart deal?
Bye Bye conserverdems
Or, one might say that Democrats in Congress and the White House have obviously been suffering from ergasiophobia, the poor things, but, they shall just simply have to work on it.
So, we can say true, if unpleasant, things to those to whom we have all been overly polite these last forty-odd years, and while they may continue to try to ignore us, some of them might become perplexed or even get their hearing checked.
DW
That’s just it. Nobody will get Health CARE from this bill, they will only be FORCED to buy Health Insurance.
Insurance does NOT equal Care.
They may not be able to deny you BUT:
They can still raise your rates in accordance to what they consider your “risk” – no ceiling or controls there. In fact in the elderly population they are allowed to raise the rates by a 3 to 1 ratio.
They can still cancel your policy if you are sick – they were given a nice loophole there, the same one they are using now “fraud for failure to disclose”
And unless you are living 400% below the poverty level or somewhere up in the low 6 figures you probably fall into the range of too broke to afford the coverage but not poor enough to qualify for subsidies.
Which means you are better off taking your chances without the Senate bill.
At least the House version had strong cost control mechanisms and a more fairly balanced sliding rate scale built in. The Senate version does not.
At least the way it is NOW, if you can’t afford to eat, pay rent and buy crappy health insurance, YOU get to decide which necessity to cut out of your budget. I am going to guess you would cut Health Insurance before you would cut the power off in your house. But maybe I am wrong.
With a bill that simply mandates purchasing of insurance but offers NO cost control all you really get is to decide whether you want heat and lights or groceries. Your health insurance will now come first and all other living necessities will come second.
Lord knows I know what it’s like for a “family” of one living on zero dollars a year. I am a single male, unemployed, back in school and existing off of what he can squeeze out of FAFSA. I can’t get a job. I have no car. I had to move back in with the parents seven years ago ahead of eviction from my apartment, and haven’t been able to get free since. If, after financial aid dries up, I still can’t get a job, I’m screwed. But I’m supposed to support Dimocrats for selling out my country to corporate interests AGAIN. And if I refuse, Paul Krugman — whom I normally respect a great deal — calls me unreasonable for not supporting a bad bill that will institutionalize, not solve, a major crisis. Unbelievable.
” I still wouldn’t be able to pay the co-pays if I could buy the insurance…”
The Houston Chronicle recently reported that the largest portion of “uncollectable debt” in the County hospital district came from people with insurance earning between $40K and $70K who could not pay their co-pays and deductables.
I have a disabled child on Medicaid. It is already very difficult to find a doctor that will see her.
The Senate Bill will add 10 to 15 million to medicaid and 15 to 20 million will be forced to but insurance they can’t afford to use.
There is no reform in this bill. It produces a smokescreen of insurance coverage but does very little to help people get HEALTHCARE!
Elect more corporatist conservative neoliberals!!! It’s the only way we’re ever going to get progressive policy on Capitol Hill!
Ah, logic; public enemy number one.
The key graph in Krugman’s piece is this: “Now, part of Democrats’ problem since Tuesday’s special election has been that they have been waiting in vain for leadership from the White House, where Mr. Obama has conspicuously failed to rise to the occasion.”
Thanks, Paul. Not “part of Democrats’ problem,” the BIGGEST part.
See my entries, Jeff. I posted about your Full Court Press as a way to help raise awareness of it here. I’ll try to get it to as many blogs as I can.
Many of whom are ‘paid’ pundits — important factoid, big difference.
Dude’s been a troll since day one.
Why does the movie “Rollerball” (original) keep springing to mind?
I started taking Paul Krugman with a grain salt after his weird, irrational rants trying to persuade us to choose AIPAC warmonger DLC Hills over [now we know] DLC ‘status quo’ Obama.
I never meant to imply they would be “meaningless” I was simply addressing one of the concerns echoed in breaking up the pieces in the existing bills and passing them one at a time.
The approach you are suggesting – if I understand correctly is not so much “break the bill down” but more literally, “re-write this” as numerous smaller bills with the most powerful components as stand alone items, non-reliant on other parts of the bill.
I’m an advocate of ANY approach that can move the discussion forward as opposed to throwing in the towel and just accepting the crappy Senate bill.
As I remarked earlier, if this is a workable option and the one they choose to take, I would like to see them start with heavy hits to the industry first. Anti-Trust, Drug Competition, removal of the Red Lining.
…loves Spencer Ackerman tho’ hmmm…
I shall leave you all with the word kakistocracy.
As in: “Our democracy has, by the actions of SCOTUS, just yesterday, been firmly shoved toward the the very real likelihood of becoming a kakistocracy.”
Which simply means government by the worst “citizens”, assuming that fictious persons may qualify.
DW
PS: There is no word in our language for government by the “best” citizens.
Perhaps the need was not anticipated?
;~DW
Jane,
I see our Catch 22 poster came back. Darn that Heller. Interesting book he wrote.
as jon stewart noted last week: the Dims can’t get anything done, and they have something like 18 more senators ( think he said) and who knows how many more reps than the Repugs did and Bush was able to push through all sorts of shit… but then, that just exposes the Dims for being more like the Repugs than the people want to acknowledge… the actions and behaviours of this year by the politicos have made soooo many more people realize something i’ve been saying for years: we’re living in a single party governmental system – there is no real difference between the Dims and the Repugs… hell, the pentagon budget shows just how fucked up this country is… health care reform and single payer was killed because of the ‘cost’… but the pentagon budget for THIS YEAR ALONE was more than the estimated cost of the original single payer plan over TEN years… and the Dims passed that without ANY debate or dissension… the politicos are beholden to their corporate masters – regardless of party…
Relax Jane, if they shove this shitty bill down our throats they wont be around much longer. This wld be a good thing bcz we can rebuild the dem party a lot easier if we are not running against entriched democrats beholden to the party. I am not calling another progressive member urging them not to slit their throats, if they think forcing people to buy insurance from Aetna is a great idea then why shld I stand in the way. I am going to watch the bleeding this November. Once people who are forced to buy insurance start getting fined by the IRS for not doing so the shit is going to hit the fan bcz Americans dont like being forced to do things. Passing a bad bill that affects peoples lives adversely is much worse than not passing a bill and going back to the drawing board.
Try learning about the various economies in different states. 80k a year might seem like a lot to you, but when you have to support a family of four on it and you live in a state like new York or California where the cost of living is much higher than it is in other parts of the country, and you add on debts like mortgages on houses and medical bills, then it doesn’t amount to a whole lot for four people to live on.
Hmmm… Found this…
E.J. Dionne:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/01/how_the_democrats_may_solve_th.html
Changes being made in a smoke-filled room, no discussion with progressives, with ‘selected’ members chosen by Pelosi, Hoyer and arrggh Rahm?
Hope not.
And wrong on almost every count, and presented without any evidence (claims it’s there, doesn’t show it), and sounds and smells Rovian, start to finish.
No such thing as a Republican populist [been purged from the Party]… Regardless whether Nelson is conservative, he should not be representing the Democratic party in NE — because he is certainly not advocating the change that NE Democrats and Independents were asking for in 2008. Maybe he should run as a R.
And is it mere coincidence that both pieces of legislation were the brain children of Rahm Emanuel?
You know, reading this crap that there are no differences in goals between Republicans and Democrats makes me want to toss my cookies. That they both have to deal with similar realities in the process of things does not make them the same. I look at my local legislature and how so very different are the goals of democrats and republicans and on the national level as well, and this is nothing but nihilism that tends to immobilize.
Remember, dealings in smoke-filled rooms got us the civil rights amendment.
Why are you all getting so worked up? Forget about Krugman. Forget about Cass; Forget about the alleged assault. Health Care is dead.
Keeping your powder dry?
I got a call yesterday from the DCCC [which VanHollen currently heads].
After cutting the woman off at the pass re her “robo-script,” we actually had a pretty good talk. She seemed to genuinely want to hear what I had to say, and had initially informed me that this was a “recorded line.”
She occasionally tried to go back to her script, but that faded as the call progressed.
I told her I’d voted for Democrats since 1968, but that I was now madder than I’d ever been [and I mean that in an "angry" rather than a "crazy" sense, although YMMV].
Anyway, I went through all the points, and also informed her that VanHollen used to be my congressman, so I know him, and a friend’s son works in his office.
Basically the message was, “hop on over to FDL and read some of the diaries if you want to see what long-time Democrats, former Obama supporters are thinking. Read Dean Weston, Read Peter Daou. We’re NOT buying the excuses. We want REAL reform, not politics. And btw, get rid of Rahm, Geithner, Bernanke, Paulson and the entire Goldman Sachs crowd.”
So when the Great Turn-around comes — and it should be here in a minute or two — you know whom to credit.
You’re welcome.
I’m worked up because the little goof in the WH just called a timeout so he can figure out another way to sell us to the insurance companies, after getting his dick knocked in the dirt by Massachusetts. They are not giving up, and I’m not either. I’m enjoying this.
*g*
and both bills in the House and Senate have turned back women’s equal rights by decades…
Don’t forget the wink.
They can be the House equivalent of 41 Republican Senators — i.e., block stuff the conservatives want to do.
The idea these have turned back women’s rights by decades is just plain nonsense.
It occurs to me that another disadvantage of Obama spending all this time with insurance company executives and drug mfg pooh-bahs, not being out among “the people,” and not being out articulating a plan for reform, is that folks have had a chance to listen to others, to read blogs like this one, to form their own ideas and do their own analysis.
If Obama & crew had started earlier with the spam e-mails and brain-washing, they might have converted more to their warped way of thinking. Now, it’s a bit harder [although the Veal Pen is still full].
I’m not going to bother to respond in detail–Marcy and Jon have done a much more thorough and well-documented job than I ever could. I’ll just throw you some highlights that you would already been aware of had you been following the healthcare discussions on FDL over the last year.
Insuring people is not the same as providing them with healthcare. The Senate bill, like the MA state system, makes sure that everyone has insurance in name, but the plans are junk. They shift so much of the cost of healthcare from the insurer to the patient–through exclusions, copays, and coinsurance–that the value of the plans drops to the point where they couldn’t legally be called insurance in some states. The bottom third of the population has coverage theoretically, but they can’t afford to use it. This approach is very expensive and the insurance companies love it. Why? Because up to 35% of the premiums (for a “bronze” plan) can go to overhead and profit.
To the best of my knowledge, Switzerland is a socialized system. Private companies administer the plans. But they are so tightly regulated that the government effectively dictates the coverage provided and the price. I believe that the same is true in the Netherlands. The Senate bill provides nothing like this level of regulation because, if it did, it would end the health inurance industry as we know it in this country.
Finally, mandates. How can you imagine that giving an insurer an absolute, monopoly AND a captive pool of consumers will not go hand in hand with cost increases? A mandate makes sense with either the kind of competition that a real public health plan could provide or with the draconian regulations that they have in Switzerland. Otherwise, it’s just a subsidy for one of the wealthiest sectors of the economy.
Both the Stupak and Nelson amendments are screwing around with womens reproductive health care and the ability to access health care… It will make accessible and affordable womens health care insurance worse not better. This definitely makes the health care bill v. unequal, and is definitely a big backward step.
http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/11/09/why-the-stupak-amendment-is-a-monumental-setback-for-abortion-access
It’s truly sick when anti-choice male zealots want to play doctor, when they are no way qualified.
The Hyde Amendment which Stupak Amendment is “just like” goes further than Hyde ever dreamt of.
Hyde bans federal funding of abortions. Stupak bans insurers participating in the exchange and receiving any subsidies for participants from offering insurance coverage for abortions even if outside of the exchange.
What incentive would any insurance company have to offer policy add-ons for abortion coverage with those restrictions? Especially for those women that are already working poor with children they can’t afford. So they need to have more children they can’t afford?
300+ comments later, all I can say is thank dog I live in Idaho. My four rep’s wouldn’t vote for anything benefiting the public anyway so I can save the money on calls for latte’s.
It is a major mistake to equate abortion rights with women’s rights. Now, I am a male, and as I have stipulated on other threads on this site, I am the only psychologist in Kansas, male or female, who has publicly supported abortion rights and have done so for almost thirty years. I appeared last year before the joint committee of the state legislature to defend Dr. Tiller. Health care cannot be boiled down to abortion rights, as you folks seem to want to do so. Further, talking about men being against abortion rights is egrigious and a red-herring as there are a whole lot of women out there who are also against the right to abortion.
The Senate Bill would make families earning up to 133% of the poverty line eligible for Medicaid coverage. This means that probably between 10-15 million of the working poor will gain health insurance coverage as a result of the Senate bill. I am shocked and disappointed that progressives would be willing to kill a bill that has the potential to do so much good for low income individuals.
You don’t have to do too much reading — going up to comment #327 would do — to learn that “health insurance coverage” does NOT equal health CARE, for all the reasons robspierre and others have articulated.
OFA and its ilk are great at spinning cliches like the “10-15 million working poor will be covered.” Show some brains and look behind their words.
Marcy in particular has been working hard to detail the truth covered by these cliches. Take advantage of her hard work, read her stuff, and THEN decide for yourself. But dont’ just come in here and be a parrot.
Absolutely I put abortion rights up there with women’s rights — especially when it deals with the health and welfare of women — absolutely —
Are you a doctor — No… do you know the many reasons why women require abortions — No… and we are talking about ‘male’ politicans that are taking away women’s rights with this piece of legislation — period.
As, for women, if they don’t want an abortion, simple, because women are NOT forced to have one.
“It is a major mistake to equate abortion rights with women’s rights. Now, I am a male…”
Whoa.
Sotamayor is NOT a liberal, she’s a conservative centrist, not a RIGHT wing one, but not a liberal, not by far.
You haven’t put up a single link as far as I can tell, and you continue to BRAY Rovian Talking Points.
Accuse, attack, dismiss, avoid.
Yer not worthy of this blog.
And your bridge misses you.
“That Catch 22, that’s a good one.”
“Yep, best there ever was.”
“…10-15 million of the working poor will gain health insurance coverage …”
I have a 22 year old disabled daughter with cerebral palsey. She has been on medicaid since whe was 18 and I have had a terrible time finding doctors who will see her. Making another 10,000,000 eligible for medicaid is a far cry from providing them with health care. If anything, this will be a bank breaker for hospital emergency rooms since many of these new medicaid patients will have no place else to go.
Been at LEAST since House reconvened.
Obama/Rham and Pelosi and ‘committee’ toe to toe every day.
With NO one leaking info on what’s being discussed.
All we REALLY know is Pelosi don’t have the votes to PASS Senate bill as is, and that’s a good thing, shows the progs are holding tough, so far.
As of TODAY, I’m not sure . . . I have to wait for more prog blog analysis to get a handle on how it’s all going.
Jane’s post here worries me, there’s a lot of capitulation she documents, and that’s bad.
We’ll see.
You need to go back and read what I wrote, take a deep breath. I am on your side, I have been out there on the front lines on the abortion issue, but the sum of women’s rights is not captured by the right to an abortion.
That was then, and LBJ.
This is NOW, and Obama, who’s all for corp special interests.
Can’t compare the two times, in any way . . . .
IGBOBLAB!
Yes I have. With regards to this legislation, it is a step backwards, an attack on Roe vs. Wae — a definite intentional ‘obstruction’ against women’s rights…
Me too… I can’t tell you how many times I’ve helped with emergency abortion funding helping women with Catholic insurance, who were either ‘anti-choice’ or needing emergency surgery that their insurance would not cover.
You ain’t payin attention, sohn.
You bother to read the rest of what I wrote? Not a single female psychologist, physician or clinical social worker, insofar as I am aware, in the state of Kansas, has been willing to publicly support abortion rights as I have done. That speaks well of the sisterhood, doesn’t it?
The working poor you allude to will be FORCED to buy coverage, and the subsidy won’t pay for it all, and the co pays and deductibles and the caps and limits won’t help them one damned whit.
Get it, or get gone.
Yeah, biggest piece of turd pie ever baked and sold to FDL.
At least it ranks in the Top Five or so . . . Rovian in its grandness.
Alright, then, do tell me, why is it that the majority party, which holds both Houses of Congress, and the Presidency, CAN’T accomplish a simple agenda that has been part of their party for decades?
Do go ahead, I’ll wait for your reply.
One dick no vote, man. Women don’t need your opinion on what they should consider to be women’s health. Clear enough for you?
It sure as hell IS in these days . . . abortion rights IS the only woman rights issue . . . they have the vote, jobs, education and access to things they NEVER did before the Woman’s Right’s Act was enacted.
Abortion is THE central pivot, as I’ve understood it . . . perhaps some women can respond to us both and set us straight on what THEIR social issues and priorities are in the political arena . . .
And I suggest you read Thru This, 3 Pages to see my reason for calling you out on your jive.
Read the timeline, from start to finish. After 1920 and the Vote, you know, 19th Amendment? After Title VII of The Civil Rights Act?
It’s all about Roe v. Wade from there . . .
Again, if I’ve misspoken women’s beliefs on this issue, my bad, I hope women will comment and set me and the aardvark straight.
But I’m callin aardvark’s jive.
Rights, dammit.
I find that a lot of people come here and make that argument, and then don’t disclose that they work in an industry that stands to gain a whole lot if the bill passes. Since you’re new here and commenting very aggressively, that wouldn’t happen to be you, would it?
Dealings in smoke-filled rooms also got us civil rights restrictions.
It’s not the smoke-filled room that is the problem, it’s the intent one takes INTO the smoke-filled room and the deal that comes OUT of it. CONTENT IS KING.
No offense, but you’re completely missing the mark. Democrats have more than enough opportunity to pass a good, comprehensive, REFORM bill. They’re not doing that, and it’s all to make it look like they’re being nice to everyone. THE COUNTRY DOES NOT WANT THE DEMOCRATS TO BE NICE TO EVERYONE. THEY WANT RESULTS. THEY WANT ACTION. THEY WANT HEALTH COVERAGE AND HEALTH CARE.
The Democrats could have leveraged their political capital to shoot for single-payer after Obama’s election. They didn’t. They could have done Medicare-for-all. They didn’t. They caved and caved and caved and capitulated and compromised and we’re left with the shimmering turd we have today.
NOBODY’S FAULT BUT THEIR OWN.
Amen!
oh, mauimom, if you’re still here – that was priceless. Love, love, love it.
I don’t get those calls – guess because I never have given to those orgs. Love what you did. :-)
Yes, I missed your post… We need more people like you that ‘connect’ with our Congresscritters… Thx.
Right your are.
What`s the deal with Wendell Potter now saying passing the bill is what he favors-yeah it is crap-but crap is our historic only opportunity.
Who bought him out now? He can have all the opinions he wants-but he’s not political adviser, he is supposed to be an insurance insider.We have the Dems on the run. Time to stick them again. Refuse to buy in to their talk, this is about action. The country is teetering on the brink of a suffocating corporatist takeover of every facet of our lives and of our democracy. The message that must be delivered to Democrats: “get out of the hallway if you can’t lend a hand.” They must become believers that a significant portion of their base will either stay home and sit on thier hands when the elections come or vote for their opponents. They are acting like they might understand the tremendous jeopardy that they are in with the MA senate results. But they do not yet comprehend how bad it can be for them in November. We need to keep the pressure on and we need to hawk down on any financial legislation they propose, just as we exposed the weaknesses of the HCR legislation. They have not yet demonstrated that they can be trusted.
And that would be in what specific way??
I’m not fooled by Obama’s Johnny come lately populism in Elyria Ohio a stone’s throw from my alma mater, Oberlin. I wonder what the college kids are thinking over there. Wish some of them would have SCREAMED in disapproval of this turncoat President and booed him off the rostrum. He doesn’t deserve to parade around as if he is fighting the entrenched interests when he has been indulging them all along. He is still NOT listening to MA voters.
Women’s Rights Act was enacted? I presume, though I am not sure, that you are referring to the Equal Rights Amendment. Well, pardon me for breaking the news to you, but it was voted down. Never was enacted. And, for the record, I was an ardent supporter of ERA.
I don’t make half of eighty thousand a year and I want the senate bill dead. I already know what it’s like to have insurance you can’t afford to use. HEALTH INSURANCE IS NOT HEALTH CARE.
How so?
Unfortunately, Medicaid is very stingy in its reimbursements to medical providers and I am sorry that your daughter is having a difficult time finding a physician.
If people have no health insurance at all however, hospitals and doctors end up paying for those medical bills. Medicaid coverage would provide at least some reimbursements for these hospitals, so this represents at least some improvement over the current situation.
Health insurance does not necessarily mean that people are getting adequate health care and Medicaid is by no means a perfect program. That said, there is a large amount of evidence to suggest that not having any health insurance at all is associated with a variety of negative health consequences (http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2002/Care-Without-Coverage-Too-Little-Too-Late.aspx)
There are a variety of other problems that prevent low income individuals from gaining access to needed health care services – additional financial costs, racism, etc… But unless everyone is in the system, it will be nearly impossible to address these issues and these health care bills go along way towards getting everyone in the system.
Not sure how much I would benefit directly from health reform – I am a student in a medicine and public health program (funded through the NIH).
Health care is probably the most important reason why I supported and campaigned for Obama.
Excrement is actually quite Good and Nutritious, and you are all irresponsible children for not eating up whats served! Would you rather go on an empty stomach, childishly hoping that someday, maybe, you will get to eat a meal that did not first pass through Joe Liebermans digestive system?
And will you stop complaining about the smell already? I got used to it agoes ago!
in a sandwich, it’s slightly more nutritious than nothing at all
Can also make you vomit and lose liquid, thus making you worse off than before you ate it.
you don’t recycle vomitus?
go green!
Without a Public Option, the Democrats will lose in 2012 !!!
Thank you Jane! As always your voice is clear and on the side of simple truth. I am tired of this through the looking glass existence in the Democratic party. They know darn well that many of us held our noses for the last 6 years to win them this majority. We have turned ourselves inside out while they kept their powder dry— voting in Alito and Roberts who now give us fascism on a platter and wonder why we are starving.
Most of us just rave on the internet but you and a few others actually get in the trenches and fight. I finally got sick of just blah blah blah, and after being a member of another popular **underground forum for 8 years, I decided to do something. I posted a video of myself un-enrolling from the Democratic party and basically dared the Democratic Party to win me back with a public option. I gave it a provocative title and hoped to use the 150,000 plus posters to start a movement of people taking back the one statistic we all have… our voter registration.
Surprisingly in about 4 hours the video had 2700 views and by morning had been recommended and was smack dab on the front page— upper left hand corner! I was so excited I took a screen shot and emailed it to my list. After years on this site and taking part in other activist projects I finally did something and it felt great. All those years of thoughtful posting and responding had paid off… I thought.
A bad thing happened and a good thing happened. The bad thing was that the moderator without warning removed my video for being inflammatory and would not even let me link to it on YouTube. Inflammatory! A middle aged woman from Maine calmly giving a message to Obama about my disappointment and my desire to be courted the way Olympia Snowe was courted. (The scary video can be seen at http://Youtube.com/nodictation).
The good thing that happened was that I was made aware of the The Full Court Press organization that Jeff Roby has put forward. I think it is an extremely sound way to do something about the tin ear that the Democratic Party has when it comes to progressive voices. The Democratic Party as it stands is broken. The Party uses us and even as we turn out to be right about everything (quagmire anyone?) they mock us. They mock us because they fear us.
The Full Court Press, the plan to run a challengers in all districts is audacious and… well… hopeful! The audacity of hope… yeah for real.
(The plan: http://www.antemedius.com/content/full-court-press-435-democratic-congressional-primaries)
We have to show the Democrats that the D next to their name is no longer enough. The above link outlines the plan in a concise way and I believe it has promise I urge people to read about it and give Jeff feedback and support.