Andrew Sullivan links to this “money quote” from a DailyKos diarist:
Several weeks ago, Jane threw in her lot with Grover Norquist to defeat the healthcare bill.
But apparently, she didn’t mean it. Because now, her website FireDogLake wants Martha Coakley in the Senate so that Coakley’s 60th vote will allow the bill to pass—a bill that Jane detested.
It would be hard to count the irrational leaps of logic in this statement so I won’t even try, but Sullivan’s link to it is telling.
Yesterday, InstaPundit linked to a reader diary encouraging people to vote against Coakley and saying that represented FDL’s opinion too. He doesn’t allow commenting either, just like Sullivan, and the idea that different people will have different opinions in a community that tens of thousands of people contribute to on any given day would make perfect sense to them. When there’s only one voice opining on your blog and nobody is talking back (except the letters and links you choose to selectively print), it’s natural to make the mistake that every single opinion belongs to the site owner.
If you haven’t used the internet since 1992, that is.
Now, the post on FDL that Sullivan links was written by Blue Texan. But it wouldn’t be too hard to find my personal opinion on the Coakley race, all you have to do is use Mr. Google:
I certainly hope Martha Coakley wins in Massachusetts, her opponent is a neanderthal. But it’s ironic that as a pro-choice woman, one of the first things she’ll have to do is cast a vote for a bill that sets womens’ reproductive rights back a generation as the price of bailing out the insurance companies. Many Democrats have cited this fact for their lack of enthusiasm about the Coakley race, but that’s not her fault. That’s the fault of Steve Driehaus, Bart Stupak and the geniuses who thought they could jam this on the Democratic base as a way to get conservative buy-in for their vote on a bill forcing Americans to pay almost as much as they do in federal taxes to private insurance companies
And when someone asked me about it in the comments with regard to the health care bill, I said:
Everyone at FDL who writes is an individual. Sometimes there are things we undertake collectively, like pressing members to vote “no” if a bill has no public option, or making endorsements of candidates (or not, as we decided to do during the Presidential primaries).
Most of the time people have views that reflect their own opinions. Mine WRT the Coakley matter is that it’s not worth having Brown in the Senate as the price of making the health care bill better, there are better ways to achieve that goal.
I have three takeaways from this:
- Andrew Sullivan doesn’t click through to the links he prints, because the Blue Texan post he references doesn’t express support for the Senate bill, nor does it urge people to vote for Coakley because it will pass.
- Sullivan thinks that if you agree with someone about anything at all, it means you agree with them about everything. Contrary to the assertion, I have not “teamed up” with Grover Norquist on health care — we agreed that the White House shouldn’t shovel unlimited amounts of cash at Fannie and Freddie with no Inspector General in place. But because we (and probably 99% of the country) agree on that, it means we agree on everything. Okay. That renders his “Matthew Yglesias” award a bit incoherent, which is now dismissed as “having it both ways.”
- Sullivan thinks that I am capable of making the tens of thousands of people on this site parrot everything I believe, thus it’s possible to ascertain what I think from casually perusing what anyone says about anything that appears on FDL.
I’m sure Sullivan enjoys exercising complete control over every word that appears on his blog. Some of us enjoy a variety of opinion and the back-and-forth of allowing different voices to express theirs too. It’s a mistake to extrapolate too much from one setup to another — and an even bigger mistake to trust someone else to make those distinctions for you without at least checking their links.
Welcome to 2010.



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Sullivan doesn’t seem to be the brightest bulb (not that he’s a bad guy).
Jane Hamsher! Young lady, you put that chair right back where you found it!
Don’t take any shit Jane!
Sully writes some good posts from time to time. Just in the past 48 hours I read several that I thought were golden. But the thing I hate about the Daily Dish is that he seems to publish everything that comes out of his brain without filtering a damned thing. So you have to weed through an abundance of crap to get to his insights. Earlier today when I read his post you reference above my reaction was “WTF–you don’t have a clue as to what you are writing about.” I wanted to comment, but …
You continue to be among the most insightful and truthful progressive voices we have. Try not to let this kind of BS bother you and keep up the good work.
Sure seems as if FDL, EW, Jane and the FDL community are being mentioned a great deal. Sounds like someone is listening
Squawk
Speaking of seats, does the phrase “Teddy’s seat” invoke for anyone else the image of a 46 year-deep ass groove?
“Sullivan believes that I am capable of making the tens of thousands of people on this site parrot everything I believe.”
Jane, you are pretty awesome, but you’re no George Soros.
And I swear, he didn’t make me write that. No, really. He didn’t.
I’m no fan of Andrew Sullivan, but this seems beneath him as an intelligent person. I saw that Daily Kos diary, too, and dismissed it as smear that asserts a ridiculous thesis supported by incorrect assertions and weak evidence.
This was one of the better comments I saw in that thread at Daily Kos:
Why is Sullivan pushing weak smear campaigns?
Very weak, Sullivan.
Good god you people, weren’t you around when sully was daily sucking up to Bush, Rumsfeld, and Cheney??? Guess not cause it’s obvious to me the silly punk is doing the same thing today with Obama. Why do I care?
Really though, Jane, I’m in favor of a tactical loss for Coakley, and having posted the same here I’m sorry that you’re taking the heat for what we say. Really you’re taking the heat for ALLOWING us to say it, unlike the koslings and DUers who have their own little doublethink factories going on. Thank you for not being them. The sad fact is that their handlers are going to feed them a patsy to take the failure and treachery of Obama-dear-leader off their minds. Dumbasses.
Many people seem to have congestive problems. That is, they cannot understand a long sentence, or more than one sentence in a paragraph.
Or, its just the “Don’t confuse me with the facts, I’ve already made up my mind” syndrome.
Or, they are paid to have one point of view.
Or, they are just stupid.
I’m sure Sullivan enjoys excercising complete control over every word that appears on his blog.
One would think that Sullivan – who purports to be some sort of heavyweight voice in the blogosphere – would readily encourage others to voice their opinions on his site. That he doesn’t is telling – and not in a good way.
Team up with Norquist on healthcare? Huh?
And we can agree to disagree on that.
Sullivan isn’t a bad guy Per se.
He’s just an Obamabot. He’s 100% convinced that Obama can do no wrong. Obama is his Reagan..or at least he wants Obama to be his Reagan.
The thing is Sullivan is a conservative in all things…except for all things.
He’s pro gay rights, he pro government health care, he’s against torture, it goes on and on. He calls himself “A conservative not a Republican”, but it doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.
He’s more like a Liberal desperate not to call himself that. But Obama gave him his excuse to start being more open.
And now he won’t go back on his Messiah, and all those who dare blaspheme against him will face his wrath.
To this day I don’t understand why anyone not specifically concerned with gay civil rights issues pays attention to Andrew Sullivan. Even within that specific issue realm, he has been somewhat on the fringe in the past as one of the few gay people who actually want to vote Republican.
Being solely a noted-though-fringe observer of gay civil rights issues probably doesn’t make his attacks on people involved in the health care debate more credible.
I wish I could pull gold out of my ass like pundits pull opinions out of theirs.
Thanks Jane! As one who is still has flecks of Boston Cream Pie in her hair, I just want to say thanks for inviting all of us in to your house to play. I’m sorry that Sullivan and others fail to grasp the usefulness of an energetic debate, but that’s why I like FDL by far and away the best of any blog anywhere.
I’m surprised Sullivan doesn’t understand that a big part of the stagnation of ideas in the Republican Party has to do with their top-down model of thought and rigid conformity. The only interesting ideas coming out of conservative circles these days are coming from the libertarian fringes.
Dems have their issues, but we have much more interesting discussions. Perhaps Sullivan should spend some time in the threads and not just reading the posts. Some of the best stuff shows up in the threads (nothing personal).
Anyway, I’m always interested in your opinions, but I appreciate the fact that you don’t impose them on the rest of us. There is an amazing tolerance for a wide range of ideas here. It doesn’t mean they won’t be challenged, but that’s what makes it fun : )
Slightly OT – Can we PLEASE stop referring to this abomination as an insurance company ‘bailout’?
Words matter.
It isn’t Andrew’s fault he hasn’t read all the pertinent FDL posts. His laser printer pooped out before his hard copy of the internet was complete.
[Edited by Moderator.] You prayed and wished for failure, and now you’ll get it. You need another million years out of power and then another million after that.
[Mod note: Engage with facts and statistics to present your position. Name calling and calls for violence are not allowed]
Sleep well tonight.
; )
So the second senator from Massachusetts is only about a single vote? Funny, I thought it was all about keeping a teabagging birther out of office. Coakley might suck, the health bill might suck, but having senators like Scott Brown sucks a whole lot more.
No wonder our public discourse is so stupid, nobody seems able to think beyond the moment.
Um, that’s what it is.
I’m not a fan of Andrew. He spent years and years defending neocons and republicans in the face of their many atrocities, despite all clear evidence of their destruction.
I’m surprised he doesn’t link to some of my outrageous comments and attribute them to Jane.
Irrational is Patient Less Than Zero‘s middle name, Jane,
Regardless of who wins tonight I like that turnout has been heavy all day. It’s past time to be looking for “progressive” candidates for this year’s elections. Identify a candidate and keep the energy level up. All politics all da time.
Food fight? Do tell.
You are currently painting with as broad a brush as the people you criticize.
I would say the response to BT’s post was not universally positive.
Sullivan? You gotta be kidding me.
The “democrats are traitors and may mount a fifth column” guy? The one who backed Bush long after any rational person had started despising him? The one who used his late-blooming post-Bush sensibility to push a rumor about Sarah Palin’s kid?
That guy? Why does anyone still read and link to him? He makes Joe Klein look sensible and competent.
Now, if only we could get Tweetie to stop drooling and screaming…
Jane,
Regarding your “takeaway #1″:
You might find this quote by Andrew Sullivan interesting. He admits in this post that his interns find much of his subject matter:
Many people are listening. Of that I have no doubt.
Great work, Jane and FDL!
Btw, I saw Jane on MSNBC with Dylan Ratigan earlier today. Great job.
Actually, it’s not a “bailout.” I haven’t heard of any insurance company, health or otherwise, in financial straits or on the verge of a collapse that would destroy the insurance industry. “Giveaway” is more appropriate imo.
I think they mean that “bailout” implies the govt. is paying for it. the HCR bill uses the executive power of the fed gov to force private citizens to buy a financial product from private industry, and without even any meaningful or even fully enforceable standards of quality.
“Giveaway” is more appropriate imo.
Bingo.
The boy pundit echo chamber reinforcing each other’s bs in defense of the indefensible coming out of the White House makes me think of this every time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZusIOLDRs8
I actually don’t think it’s about Obama. It’s more like a series of “high fives” between those who derive their group identity from the 2008 election, and interpret any critical examination of the administration as a personal threat to its integrity.
They have not seemed to notice that this makes absolutely no sense to the rest of the country, who resent billions of dollars in bonuses going to the bankers and don’t give a shit about their “crew.”
I am so glad I don’t have teebee. Having to watch clips of him on the intertoobz is bad enough. Usually good for a laugh, though. Yeah, I know, it’s not nice to make fun of developmentally challenged folks.
I take it you haven’t been hanging around over at The Seminal the last few days ; ) It’s been fun : ) A lot of hotly contested points of view on the MA Senate race. More fun than you could shake a stick at — not that that stopped anyone from trying ; )
Yep – it’s tribal. And a boy tribe. Girls are not allowed in the tree house. Or gays either.
Drives me nuts.
Evidently insulting your readers at the start of a post is a good way to generate comments, albeit counterproductive if your goal is persuading people to adopt your point of view.
I love and appreciate most all of what Jane does, but have strong concerns about any alliance with Norquist. It’s not a contradiction… I’m sure he’s baffled.
Somehow, I am able to think for myself. Sullivan is a sad case.
Sullivan thinks that I am capable of making the tens of thousands of people on this site parrot everything I believe, thus it’s possible to ascertain what I think from casually perusing what anyone says about anything that appears on FDL.
Bwahahaha! Andrew has never read the comments section here:)
perfect short analysis.
Yeah, that was pretty lame of Sullivan. He can be quite good, except he shoots from the hip way too often, picking up garbage from others instead of trusting his own judgment.
Got sad when I saw his post, and even more when I read the diary on DK.
Liked this comment, though:
Ditto
It showed the classic rift between old DLC corporate playbook of using government and private industry to achieve progressive results for the benefit of corporate dems and private industry. Some point to the progressive goal of universal health care. So we get close, maybe 90%, we should be happy, STFU and support the party wholeheartedly.
Some feel this is an unacceptable benefit toward bad actors and insist on some type of government insurance that cannot be gamed by private industry. The rift is deep and real among democrats and it just depends on your view where you stand.
that wound up being a problem, yes. I knew what was being done, rehtorically, but rehtorically its not such a good idea unless your posting on a reich hitler- rightwing- closet dominant submissive site.
I don’t think agreeing that Rahm should be investigated constitutes an “alliance.,” no matter how often critics characterize it as such.
Now Kelly, there’s Valerie and Kathleen and Janet and Hilary and….. oh, OK so you prolly got it right.
Thanks Jane. From this long time mostly lurker; keep up the fight. The posts here and on the stat’s and the threads on all have never been more alive. Again, thanks for lettin us romp in your rooms.
Less Light, More Heat!!!
Sullivan’s convoluted mind games make sense in the coming decade of agnotology.
Don’t take any crap from these jokers, Jane.
Jane you looked very pretty on TV today.
lmao! That was surely the last thing I expected, Ezra Klein in a leather RUN-DMC hat??
; )
Jane, and others, have taken a ton of shit over their views or “perceived views.” That they’ve stood up to it speaks volumes to their resolve and commitment.
Second that.
It most certainly is a bailout. Please see my post at this link explaining why I think it is a bailout. Short version, the 12/31/08 balance sheets of four of the five largest insurance companies show that if they had to take the goodwill and intangible assets off their balance sheets, two would be insolvent, and two would be in a very precarious position. I believe they would have to write these assets down if a strong public option were to pass, and I believe that if Medicare-for-all or some other form of single payer were to pass, they would almost certainly have to write down these assets.
Ratfood! be carefull you’ll spoil the talking point.
‘derive their group identity from the 2008 election’ is a categorically true way of characterizing a lot of figures continuing to attack critics of Obama, the Democrats, etc.
I generally have not blended well with people who allow a group identity to blind them to facts.
Yep….. Instapundit using FDL for their wingnut propaganda………bwahaahha
Who wudda guessed? How’s that Grover Norquist alliance going again?
The end of FDL has begun. Good Riddance!
I could live with that.
Yup.
Andrew Sullivan doesn’t allow readers’ comments on his blog.
SouthernDragon, I’m hurt, you didn’t read my post linked at comment 56. And I worked so hard on it.
Invocation of the name “Norquist” on a progressive blog can be as emotive as an invocation of “Hitler” in any other human experience…IF YOU ONLY POSSESS KNEE JERK REFLEXES, and are completely incapable of individual thought.
Yes, I would like to reduce Grover Norquist references to a size that might be drowned in a bathtub, but as long as there exists the possibility that he is still human, so too exists the possibility that a progressive opinion might agree with SOMETHING that falls out of the man’s mouth, just by sheer accident if nothing else. But the illogical leap that agreeing with anything Grover says is somehow a thin end of a wedge into agreeing with all his idiotic supply side economic notions is…well…nuts.
Andrew, consequently, is nuts but maybe he likes that?
As someone who occasionally has reason to quote Sullivan favorably because of his principled position on torture, let me say this blog piece of his is a masterpiece of stupidity, and shallow polemics. The DK diary to which he links had a minimal reception at the site, was wrong, as Jane points out, in its particulars, and Sullivan’s squib comes off as cheap (and to us, certainly stupid).
If I were bmaz, I’d say he should apologize to Jane ;-)
Wow, you are so bitter I’d bet even your [Edited by Mod. Let's dial it back here] are gagging.
And I’ll my two cents that for folks who have read his blog when his interns are in charge there’s a noticeable swing not just towards the right, but towards slanted right-wing rhetoric.
I do think that by supporting coakley, even with reservations, you’re telling the obamacrats, many of whom are former republicans like sullivan, that they don’t have to respect you. So it is no surprise he is broadcasting your support to his fellow centrists. The truth is the right just talk nastier, and that is all they have to do to get you to vote lesser evil. The rich just have us by our hair and there is no way out but to say none of the above repeatedly and with force. The democrats are the good cops for the rich and the repukes are the bad cops.
Have I missed posts on that, or links, or something? I don’t remember seeing anything about that.
Pay them no mind. That you ruffle some feathers is actually a good sign. They will of course lie, distort and put words in your mouth because you are a force to be reckoned with. Loved how you took it to that Lanny (I’m a crooked liar) Davis the other day!
ZOMG!
That’s why he’s so unhappy!
The analysis gets more difficult if there is more than one mind in charge of the parrots.
When Sully is good, it shocks and rocks us back.
And when he is bad, he gives David Brooks a run for his money. He can be just dreadful.
Hoo Boy. Orange cheetoe aaaallll over the place.
How does it go? It’s time to worry when people STOP talking about you?
Can’t help but notice you’re still here. Why is that again? Lost? Challenged? What?
Well, damn, I haven’t gotten the chance to go to the link yet. *g*
Now that I see it colour me bad.
I lost all respect for that galoot when I watched him bully sweet Naomi Klein on some late night show. What I took away with me is that he doesn’t like wimmin… at all. Thinks we should just shut up and stay in our proper places which means not thinking, let alone expressing it.
I still can’t figure out what his politics are; sometimes he seems to be a raving conservative, other times…not so much.
Who cares. Obviously the TEEVEE people would rather have Jane on because she’s so smart and cute.
Sullivan’s just trying to get attention as all bullies are prone to do.
I can remember when the bailouts were being handed out, Frank Keating, a life insurance honcho, said he was heading to DC for a handout. Keating used to be the Governor of Oklahoma and he made the local news when he said he was going to shake down DC. I don’t know if he got any money.
Indeed, here’s the link.
You bring up a point that never seems to get much emphasis. How involved were the big insurance companies in the housing bubble, meltdown, and current stock and commodity bubbles? AIGFP was the ostensible reason for AIG going under, but it had a history of funky accounting and things like internal re-insurance schemes that look shaky. For the others, just where was their money invested, how much is hidden by mark to model, and other book cooking ploys? I sure would like to know.
If you can trust there numbers that is I’m trusting nobody these days until we get some real financial regulation.
I believe they would have to write these assets down if a strong public option were to pass, and I believe that if Medicare-for-all or some other form of single payer were to pass, they would almost certainly have to write down these assets.
Unless their outside auditors (and the FASB) puts some serious greeze on the balance sheet skids. I’m of the opinion that intangibles in general (particulary in a down economy) are nothing so much as hot air, claims and abstruse justifications to the contrary notwithstanding. However, the auditors and company management continue engaging in the reckless behavior of justifying the retention of such “assets” on the books. The auditor doesn’t want to lose the client, management wants to hold that bottom line – a regular two-bit tap dancing show. And all the while the FASB looks the other way. (They just can’t be that F-n stupid. They’re right-in-the-thick-of-it complicit.)
As I posted on seminal a few weeks ago:
Obama’s Mission Accomplished for Have the Mosts
This D.C. head fake called Health Care Reform is at its core, the insurance industry’s turn at the bailout trough – just another regressive tax on the road to what Elizabeth Warren & Marcy Wheeler have identified as the feudalization of what’s left of the American middle class.
Simply stated, for profit insurance has two interdependent sides.
1) They sell policy coverage for premiums according to risk, morbidity and mortality calculations known as actuarial science. The ratio of premiums to risk losses must be within prudent financial limits or the companies won’t have enough money to pay their insureds claims. They retain excess premiums and divert these funds into the other side of their business. The more income they collect, the less losses they pay out, and the longer they delay these payouts, the faster they can aggregate investment capital.
2) Insurance has been one of the pillars of capital formation for hundreds of years. These corporations own or finance some the largest investment portfolios in the world, particularly commercial real estate. These massive asset bases back up the written risk coverage by generating long term capital growth. The more the assets increase, the more risk they can take on, generating even more premium income. This is the source of most of their net income which drives their profits, executive compensation, shareholder dividends and stock growth.
When insurance corporations find themselves writing off enormous loans and walking away from commercial real estate because occupancy rates, rents, net operating income and therefore asset values have tanked precipitously, it turns their business models upside down. Add to this vortex any spectacularly crashing unregulated, highly leveraged hedge fund bets these same corporations made to boost their portfolio income … well, we can’t have insurance executives selling pencils and apples on the street, can we?
Of course, more than just executive compensation and shareholder value is endangered by this scenario. Every insured risk inadequately backed by a real asset constitutes a systemic risk, not unlike BCCI, Enron, AIG, World Com & Lehman. This is a real, if unacknowledged liability, not unlike pension funds that are unable to pay promised benefits to their participants due to depreciated asset bases.
Obama/Summers/Geithner’s continuing exploit of Bush’s Bernanke Put and trillions of Fed intervention in all facets of the financial markets has caused the 60%+ run up in equities since March 2009.
It remains to be seen if the financial side of this economy can grow sustainably without such props, and not at the expense of the real domestic economy where goods and services are produced, sold and consumed — the America where the have less and have very little are trying the best they can to survive.
Left Authoritarians drawn to Obama’s big win don’t worry in a generation they will be the new Neocons.
Mods it would be preferable if you nixed the comment entirely. Your edit makes it appear as if I said something worse.
I wish I could pull gold out of my ass like
punditspeople here pull opinions out of theirs.I had to do an edit. Please forgive me.
Jane
You are in good company from the Kos haters. They also hate Michael Moore and Cindy Shehan with a passion.
Kos and Andy do not realize that the hate meme is soo boring.
Andy used to be a republican. Kos used to be CIA. Guess they are looking for a way to blame you for obamarahm’s failures.
An OT Q
A newbie over at Prop H8 asked if he could donate using Paypal. If you can give me an answer, I’ll post it on the thread where he asked. I told him to check back.
Agree that it’s best to see a Coakley loss if only to wake up
Congress and Obama to REALITY. These opportunities are few and far between.
I can’t agree with Jane H. on this one.
Even better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJOZp2ZftCw
Elliot Spitzer was just about to blow the whistle on predatory lending. All 50 state AGs were complaining. bush stopped the whistle blowing. The SS stopped Spitzer.And state’s rights used to be so important to conservatives.That bush has such a sense of humor.
‘Ya think Coakley’s loss will be Jane’s fault?
Jane implies by her support of Coakley, that we can work within the current system to effect change. The system is BROKEN but sometimes lodging a mass protest vote is the next best thing to taking to the streets.
masaccio has just shown me the error in my thinking. Had to bookmark his link so I can read it later. Learn somethin’ new every day.
Have a macademia.
[Edited by Mod. You know better] If anything it says we are the Moderate position that the Righty Blogs think they can make deals with. Somehow we ended up being what Rahm always tried but failed to be. How we did it I’m not sure but I can tell you Rahm giving in all the time to the GOP did not win him any friends Authoritarians respect those who respect themselves and fight back.
We certainly fight enough here:)
Who said that.. That’s quite a stretch of logic. I just disagree with her support of Coakley because her rationale is not convincing. Maybe for others, perhaps.
What the hell are you talking about, Kos was in the Army not the CIA. And another thing, there’s plenty of hate going around.
What makes you think a loss by Coakley will make Obama and the Congress listen (by which I assume you mean turn to the left and follow progressive wishes)? What indicators have you seen that this is remotely a possibility?
I blame it on Big Dawg.
Jane, keep after it. BTW, I saw something on PBS the other week about neanderthals. They died out after 200,000 years b/c they did not progress.
Maybe everyone knows this, but daaamn! 200,000 years of no progress.
Some people are still there, amazing.
If you want an unstoppable train to abysmal HRC, which we know is corporate welfare, then giving the 60th vote to Coakley will do the job. Those who might vote to stop the train in its tracks might have made a conscious choice to do just that, and should not be faulted for voting their conscience and principles.
Jane, I can’t help but think you’re throwing me under the bus on this one. It would have been much more helpful if you stated your support for Cloakley but also added that those against her also have some very valid points. This response seems to leave the impression that there are a lot of wackjobs on your site and you can’t control them.
I’m worried that you have taken all the criticism to heart and will now be couching your words to avoid any more attacks from the left. That would be the same mistake that the Dems are making politically. Don’t let the harassment by the main stream media alter your behavior.
I know you have a target on your back and I know that you can’t do the work you want to do if you are thought of as one of us left wing nutjobs but your success to date has been because you did not shy away from the fight. You did not let them marginalize you. You stood up for the left of the left. Please don’t leave us behind in your attempts to court favor with the “big boys.”
You know in your heart that Coakley will be another corporate Democrat and you know that this health care bill needs to be defeated and replaced with something better. Don’t lose your nerve now … please.
It’s clear that without the bullshit intangibles, the companies are effectively insolvent. However, I don’t think the gubnint would let them go down…just like it wouldn’t let the big (insolvent) banks go down. What really sticks in my craw, though, is the FASB. They know this stuff is bullshit, but they don’t mandate that companies write it down/off. Instead, they devise a bunch of exotic “tests” that effectively allow management to justify their existence. The auditors “test” the “tests,” hang their hats on the FASB pronouncements, present their bill, and everyone lives happily ever after.
Bailout? Yes. Giveaway? That, too.
Hugh, I can’t speak to property and casualty insurers or life companies, but when I checked the financials of the big 5, I didn’t see much exposure to derivatives other than some interest rate swaps. It’s been a while, but I don’t think they were big players. Remember that the insurance company subsidiaries are required by state insurance regulators to keep most of their money in very safe investments. I did some work for the Tennessee Department of Insurance when I was with the State AG over thirty years ago, and the rule then was that only 5% of total assets of a sub could be in anything at all risky. They used a different form of accounting, called statutory accounting, which was very conservative, so as to insure safety and security. AIG had a separate subsidiary, not an insurance company doing the failed swap stuff. AIG guaranteed the swaps of that sub, which led to the problem.
PPDCUS is right about commercial real estate in life insurance companies; I don’t know about property and casualty companies.
Merely an untried option. Supporting Obama and Dems in Congress certainly hasn’t achieved progressive goals.
Having said that, I agree that a Coakley loss will not have a positive effect either.
I was thinkin’ he was a Marine. I heard one host say he was a Nam vet. Dude ain’t old enough. I have seen the CIA label around a bit, though.
Masaccio has much more facts on this stuff than I do:)
As much as I am not a fan of David Brooks, I think he answers the question you posed quite astutely. It would be “political suicide” for ObamaRahm and Congress to pass so call HCR after a Coakley defeat, if it happens. Remember what you, I, or Brooks, et al say is pure speculation and we are all allowed our punditry. The fact the Obama went into MA, was in fact putting his HCR on the line.
You may sit with me in my corner, if you’d like.
They are already spinning it as Coakley is a poor campaigner.
By the end of the week they will have thoroughly convinced themselves.
I saw something that while in the army, he had begun a CIA program but decided against continuing it (someone had a link a few weeks ago), but it immediately led to the conspiracy buffs claiming “once CIA always CIA”
Welcome to modsville, Things. Nice to see they’re cracking down on us troublemakers.
dakine01
Coakley = Ben Nelson, who made 60 the new majority?
Obama, Rahm, and other corrupt dems have been using 60 senators as cover.
Obama, Rahm, and other corporate dems are trying to hijack the Progressive movement.
Obama, Rahm, corporate dems, and the MSM, wanted to stop the progressive movement. If Coakley loses in Ma tonite, every dem in the nation knows that every vote counts especially ones from progressives.
Who cares if Obama changes, the idea is to show him that he can be replace in 2012.
Obama will either choose to become fdr or hoover, it his call.
Figaro, I have to agree with this, especially after someone posted to the effect that I should be “shut down” by “Jane and Jason R” for my views in re: the Coakley race. Where was the “moderator” to intervene?
Jane seemed to be hiding out somewhere.
I was trying to offer Kelly a macademia nut, but the comment wouldn’t take.
(I’m such a bad girl.)
She is not throwing us under the bus she lets us talk why sometimes a minority viewpoint here later turns out to be right then everyone changes their mind. To be honest for example I thought Hilary would win the Primaries I changed my mind though and Obama was not my next choice until later.
If our valid points turn out to be true well the Left can change its mind thats what I like about this place.
Plus I don’t follow the nitty gritty on some of this stuff as well as I should. Finance is definitely not my best suit.
Well put.. I couldn’t have said it better.
You continue down this road of delinquency, pretty soon you’ll be TPing houses and carousing the neighborhood with your hoodlum friends…
“What Andrew Sullivan writes matters.”
–Ann Althouse
I heard the Insurance stocks took a great jump today in anticipation of health care defeat. How revealing is that on the profit motive for health care….Can I say “I’ll give you a uterus for 50 shares?”
You and Things are cracking me up. Hey, I’ve been modded many times. Go figure. And, I try to be such a nice girl. Go figure.
Threesome in the corner? I’ve got cookies. And, they’re iced.
The boundaries appear to be somewhat arbitrary. Belated response to all the unmitigated pugilism yesterday, I suspect.
Sit with ya later, okay?
I think a Coakley loss will scare the dickens out of incumbents like Barbara Boxer, here in the state of CA. That alone is worth the ride.
They might start wondering who is next?
We’ll see. :) Place is giving me the heebeejeebies lately.
Re: belated response to yesterday, WTFever. I can’t microwatch this stuff.
Oooh they were doing that when I started paying attention. When did that meme start btw?
Everyone does get a bit excited sometimes :) and Yes Mod I know better is #$%^ me acceptable?
Afer graduating from Schaumburg High School in Schaumburg, Illinois,[4] he served in the U.S. Army from 1989 through 1992. He completed training at Ft. Sill in Oklahoma and fulfilled his three-year enlistment as a Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) Fire Direction Specialist while stationed in Bamberg, Germany.[1
cherry boy fo sho
Cool with me one day we should all meet:)
It looks like the American Oligarchs are consolidating their strangle hold on the U.S. federal government while taking down the states, one by one.
California’s credit rating cut again
New York State Fiscal Crisis
Illinois state of insolvency
Recommendation: Don’t go near any bath tubs in 2010.
One frag could get us all, KEEP your interval!
Now there’s a name I’ve not seen in a long time. I wonder if she married that guy who commented on her blog.
Was that written before or after Andrew started backing Obama? Because if it was written after then has Ann joined our side??? Please say no Please say No! PLEASE SAY NO!
Last self promo, in which I critique two and a half pieces on FDL: Some anathemas with which to pass the time
That would be so wonderful. I hope Bob likes camping!
Ahhhh, kids. It’s time for a cuppa chamomille tea.
It’s time for me to shhhhhhh before the evening and boys come home and stuff.
Hugsssss, Guys.
Given the funny book keeping I doubt anybody is meant to figure it out.
Yes, letting us talk is great. I don’t require her to agree with me on anything. But her success to date has been that she is unapologetic about her opinions and here she seems to be running the other way and trying to distance herself from the position that Coakley’s win will do nothing positive for the Democratic party.
I find that disturbing and the fact remains that 60 Democratic senators is what brought us the current health care bill so maintaining the 60 vote threshhold seems to be a vote to maintain the status quo.
I agree with the DailyKos poster that this seems to be a contradiction of sorts in her opinion and I don’t remember ever feeling that way about Jane before.
She has always been able to shut the other side up by stating her unequivocal opinion and now she’s leaving some wiggle room. I don’t like that. It portends to a weakening of her confidence and I just want her to know that she doesn’t need to apologize for her opinions or for the opinions on this site. We are all smart people here and that is evident from the posts. We do not need to be hidden in the closet when company comes over.
And the next time someone criticizes her for my views, I hope she’ll stand up and say with pride that many Democrats agree that Coakley should lose and they are not just on this site. The fact that Coakley is losing is not just because she is a lousy candidate but because Obama and the Dems sold out the people of this country and nobody is in the mood to reward them with another senate seat.
Bet the frauleins liked him.
Jå
Anybody need a good laugh?
You think Darth is still mad at me, or is it Rahm, or the Tea Baggers? Or should I be worried about people Demi and Ratfood pissed off:)
Bye Demi:)
Sorry, but one OT before I go. Ron Christie on Ed now is such is nerd putz.
That’s all for now.
ya never know!
It’s Obama, King of Bipartisan Make Believe, colliding with his Black Adder COS political kneecapper, Prince Rahm.
Congratulations on making MA an offer they can’t refuse.
hearts to you. doesn’t Joan Walsh rock?
I wonder if it’s crossed the minds of the various “hit piece” authors that indepentent thinkers are largely immune to shoddy propaganda.
It’s just amazing to see so many authors take the low road of disinformation and/or personal attacks. I cannot envision such methods leading the nation in anything other than a bad direction.
We are not hidden our comments are on the net for all to see…unless we get moded. Jane is probably going to face the full WH press machine going after her if Coakley looses never mind that in district as Blue as Ted’s every Fire Pup could stay home and not swing the election either way, not that Jane said that.
Heck this isn’t us I’ve been arguing we could swing close races Ted’s Senate seat never entered my mind. Sure I think win or lose a close race can scare the Dems hopefully Left.
But that’s my theory not Jane’s I say we cut Jane some slack on this because I think if Coakley loses Rahm will go to war with FDL he needs a scapegoat to throw the failure off of him.
We could be knee deep in Rahm trolls Wednesday.
Well, it doesn’t appear that she was a prodigy on the campaign trail but you’re right; as long as Mr. Emanuel controls the filter on messages coming into the WH it appears to be full speed ahead with the blue dog agenda and damn the torpedoes.
No tv here I hope she is rockin though.
And Ian’s correct about today’s MA special election.
One thing’s certain, States need far more federal support. Last I heard the average state budget shortfall was about 7 percent.
Here’s an Arizona headline to add to the collection:
Arizona treasurer says checks will bounce amid budget crisis
http://www.abc15.com/content/financialsurvival/azstories/story/Arizona-treasurer-says-checks-will-bounce-amid/zcj-lWgpF0GHUxm3cG4Zcw.cspx
Jon Walker is upstairs!
In Defense Of Coakley: Democrats All Over The Country Are Polling Bad
Did I miss the consistent and rational opposing view of “kill HCR” on FDL?…Which one of the “individual” bloggers here took the opposite view to the owner’s opinion? … Now we’re morphing from “kill HCR” to “making it better”? Gee. I guess I didn’t catch on to the double-secret-really-REAL FDL strategy for healthcare reform. On the other hand, maybe the Team of “individuals” should stop trying to run the political version of the triple-reverse when it’s first and goal from the 1 yard line?
did i hear someone infer there is a difference between Coakley and Brown in any meaningful way. one is a woman, the other is a man, both are part of Versailles’ well orchestrated scam on America.
Gosh they are so inept in their own way. Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
the only problem with associating with Norquist is you are associating with Norquist.
the Devil does not make deal. like that frog that rode with the scorpion across the river.
Good intentions are just that.
If Mr. Sullivan were less confused, he wouldn’t be Mr. Sullivan.
For a guy who won’t take comments on his blog, he seems to know an awful lot about what it means for authors who do. Converted “liberals” like this we don’t need.
It’s really rough for poor Jane when her mind control ray gun is on the fritz. From what I can tell, it’s been years and she still hasn’t got it back from the shop. Maybe she can borrow Dick Cheney’s methods: Agree with me or risk finding yourself in Gitmo.
Has someone been censored? Please show me where.
Thanks.
I think it was during the recent Sully “ghost blogger” controversy.
She sure did-more so than usual.
Something looked different…but in a great way!
oops.
A pedestrian attempt to “sully’ Ms. Hamsher.
I agree with you.
This is going to get ugly before November.
And I don’t mean to be critical of Jane. She’s got enough on her plate without worrying about he left flank. Sorry Jane.
But I know that every progressive I’ve ever had a crush on has disappointed me except for Howard Dean. They have all caved when the going got tough. I’m particularly disappointed with Feingold. I worry that the pressure that will be exerted to silence her is too much for ANY of us to bear and that is why we have seen all of our supposed heroes go up in flames.
There comes a point when you are just worn out and want to go home. She will reach that point. What happens after that is what worries me. Are we going to be enough to keep her going? Can we get our voice out there with enough authority to protect her from the unfair attacks and maintain our credibility?
We need to be prepared for the fight. As we get stronger, the resistance will grow. We’ve got to support each other, despite our differences of opinion, or we will not succeed.
I just want that out there for people to keep in the back of your mind. How can we protect FDL from being marginalized as a bunch of kooks without compromising our strongly held beliefs? In my opinion, we never apologize for our opinions.
I’ve said that before — if you follow the link in the post to the comments, I say that I’m not sure by any means that I have a lock here on the right way to go. I understand people have different feelings and it’s a confusing situation, and I’m not sure there is a “right” answer.
If it’s close, my personal feeling is that this will be the 3rd Democrat they’ve tanked in the Senate: Dodd, Dorgan and now Coakley. She was strongly pro-choice until they forced her to grovel for Ben Nelson. That’s when her poll numbers started tanking. In order to protect Obama they started throwing her under the bus on Sunday, and that could well be the margin of difference. I understand some may think that’s a good thing, but the White House will have been an ironic agent for achieving that if it does happen.
Hey, how about a regular gig with Ratigan -like Feinmann has with KO?
I’ve been at a “tech summit” here at my house with editors, admins & tech folks. But I’m the “editor on duty” now and I’ll be in the threads tonight so Gregg can go out and have a drink with everyone.
Lady, you rock. Thanks for the response.
?
I don’t get cable, only over the air TV. I know who KO is but not the others.
“goodwill / intangible assets”
These are accounting placeholders for, as they said, “the excess of purchase price over the fair value of net assets”. Since Big Healthcare doesn’t provide or produce anything of actual value, that’s about all they really have. Any tangible book value worth looking at is pretty much real estate and office accoutrement, computer hardware, and the like. For UHG & WellPoint, at least, these would appear to be mostly leased or otherwise not owned.
Frankly, I’m amazed Cigna & Aetna have the high-value hard assets your table states.
Anyhoo, they might have to take a writedown with a robust PO, but so what? I don’t have a problem forcing them to change their ways to be more competitive, I was kinda hoping that was one of the points of all this hoo-ha. If single payer were implemented, they’d be even needier, doesn’t mean we should have to buy them out. Either case, it’s still a giveaway – not a loan to save an industry that has someplace ‘up’ to go, just paying off gamblers, which is all anyone is who is invested in this niche from here on out. And frankly, not the problem of taxpayers.
Is it your sense that these companies will use the ‘bailout’ funds to somehow make changes to those numbers, to protect their investors? It is to laugh, but I’ll just agree to disagree.
Rahm’s like a democratic 1918 influenza.
What’s next …. Harold Ford’s DLC sucking candidacy for senate?
I’m sure every state has a story like this — why not assemble them?
She hasn’t. I was commenting on Sullivan thinking that everything said on this blog is Jane’s opinion, like we are controlled by her. It’s laughable, really, but for a Republican, I am guessing that they are only used to seeing operatives like Cheney who stifle dissent.
Sullivan may enjoy controlling every word that appears on his blog, but it’s quality suffers because of it. We all live in bubbles we construct, but Andrew has made his smaller than most. He always says his readers prefer he not have comments. What a joke. Anyone who doesn’t want to read comments can just skip the comments. It’s a charade to cover the fact that he can’t handle dissent very well.
For many people, the choice is ends vs. means – do you vote for Scott Brown to defeat a bad healthcare bill, or do you vote for Martha Coakley because she’s a Democrat?
I say Scott Brown because I detest the current healthcare bill.
The BackBlog Boyz – bwaaahaaaahaaaaa
bam!
Andrew Sullivan can’t reconcile his philosophies, that’s why he continually has to move the goalposts. He was w/the neocons, we’ll bomb because we can and we want to lay pavement, now, apparently, he’s a hippie.
It not a natural sense of growth, and it’s kinda disturbing, like when he advertized for bare back sex while HIV positive and yet we woman have no right to control our own bodies. That inability to reconcile one’s moral compass is disturbing to me, it’s inconsistent. It’s like Bill Maher, sure, I’ll judge Roman Polanski (even though the victim, specifically has asked that Polanski be left alone and close the case),but Maher has no issue with countries, only specific countries, of course, being able to bomb whomever they choose, which means that untold thousands of 13 yr old girls will get raped, but that’s war and just, so….
Only in America is this morality so fucked up. And Gore Vidal said it best, intimating that Sullivan and his kind reminded him of the Irish journalists that came over, instructing our founding fathers how it should be done.
He’s interesting, but all that morality, and it’s so petty. He’s finally addressing the evangelical disease I’ve written about, but he still allows the christianist/evangelicals a platform, as it’s simply a more radical version of his personal philosophies…..