Good idea. Not only should they give the money back, they should be placed on a list with their faces and a “Don’t donate to these people” sign until they force a reconciliation vote on the public option. It might be one thing if we were asking too much of our Progressive friends in Congress. But this is an overwhelmingly popular position that is one of the 3 things the Democrats must do to save their ass at the ballot box: get a public option, and alter both the individual mandate and excise tax so they don’t penalize anyone except the upper class.

Call me a cynic, but I don’t think they should give it back. It’d be nice, but it’s unlikely. I hope people understand when they give money to politicians it comes with the risk of having been lied to. I’d much rather see the bad dems tossed out of office for failing to live up to their rhetoric. We’ve achieved the “more democrats”, now it’s time for the “better democrats” part.

I like that idea! I can see the Headline now “Liars” and then put all the faces of the ones that broke the pledge on it.

You fucking rubes shouldn’t have given them the money in the first place. Fucking gerbils.

I want the money back I gave to Rick Noreiga because of the Lake!

Ask them to return it and if they say no, then we will run a candidate against them and remove them from office for embezzlement and fraud.

It doesn’t have to be either/or. And remember, those funds are used toward their campaigns – in other words, toward their re-elections – which is what you oppose. So, I say ‘give it back,’ don’t use my money for your campaign, and let’s re-route those funds to candidates with guts and conviction.

If you buy a car from a used car salesman, you take a risk. Politicians are liars. Rich people are liars. Politicians are rich people, or are once they get their political office position for a lifetime.
The saddest part is, that nobody sees this reality. Heck, right now there is fighting going on for Ted Kennedy’s seat. “Ted Kennedy’s seat”?? That’s how it’s phrased all over the internet. You KNOW your political party doesn’t give a sh*t about voters when you actually have the audacity to think you are entitled to seats.

“Shouldn’t have given them the money in the first place” deserves to be in the poll.

I would like to see Eddie Van Halen run the DCCC. That would really rock!

But in most places you’re protected (at least somewhat) by lemon laws.

They should return the money if they break their promise.

They most likely won’t, but they should.

That they won’t give it back is no reason not to ask, and then shaming them when they don’t.

They should return the money, most definitely. In the future, is there some way for Act Blue to hold these donations in ‘reserve’ and only send money to those candidates that actually honor their pledge or perform as promised (and by perform, I don’t mean kabuki).

If the donations could be held back until certain criteria were met, that would be great. They have demonstrated that they are children, they have to be treated as such – “No reward until you bring up your grades.”

one cannot ask for one’s money back when a politician fails to perform as the campaign contributor asks, as natural an emotion as that may be.

Face it, there are lots more HUGE campaign donors on the R side, and if any and all donors could ask for money back when a promise is not kept, be they R’s or D’s, what you end up with is representatives of the few, not the many.
(and yes, I know – one could easily make that argument right now – still doesn’t make it right).

I don’t want my representatives basing their votes on a calculation of which position on an issue raised the most money, or which way a vote would cost less in refunds.

No, I don’t want it back–but I don’t want them to keep it either.

Progressive Democrats who violate the pledge should either donate it to disaster relief or else don’t expect me to donate again. After all, what’s the point of supporting a politician–if they aren’t going to work towards your interests.

The Repug who called those who donated “fucking rubes” would be equally upset, if his donations had gone to a politician had broken a no increased taxes, or “no fucking science” pledge.

Oh i almost forgot how how the good guys, the pledgers, are cynical exploitative theives too.

An alcoholic has-been guitar player. Great call.

they should give it all to free clinics.

LOL. o god what was he thinking! an (recovering) alchoholic in elected office? the sky would fall!

I’ve continued to ask promise-breaker Chris Carney to return my money from his 2006 race. He promised to support the Mathew Shepard Hate Crimes Bill, in answer to a direct question, in a public forum here at FDL. First chance he got after being elected, he voted against it. My donation was a wee pittance, but I like to think someone has had to sign for my several registered, certified letters (and realized the cost of my postage exceeds my tiny donation).

Thousands of people asking for hundreds of thousands of dollars back would make a much louder and more inconvenient noise. We can provide email and letter templates, campaign addresses (shouldn’t write to their House offices), tallies and counts as the efforts progress. Lots of local press releases to their in-district media, too.

No money will get returned. That’s not really the point, though, is it?

i was going to say, that the corporate doners dont ask for thier money back when they dont get their way, but they dont ever not get their way.

Yes, give us back the money so we spend it more wisely on our kids and needy community next time. I talked to my wife today about disconnecting completely from Wall Street, which means congress and the corrupt politicians. Dennis Kucinich still gets money from us (we’re in CA) and he’s still upright, but I can think of a few others in congress that deserve our support right now. Are you listening now, Congress?

When the DCCC or DSCC call/email for fundraising tell them you’ll donate to a local charty where it will do some good within the district/state s/he has failed to represent.

More to the point is, why should I give the corporatist Democrats any money at all next time? Let them get it from their masters. They don’t work for me.

You made me laugh.

LOL! People giving money to GOP/Dem pols?. Next time, just go ahead and flush it down the toilet.

I would not ask them for the money back.

I had already contacted Sam Farr CA 17 (couple of months ago ahead of the house vote) noting to the phone answerer guy that Sam had received some dough; and that if he (or any Democrat) failed to vote for something without at least a solid public option, that there would be hell to pay come next election.

Still stands, Sammy, I prefer you keep it makes my working against you easier to justify.

You have that right.
At the least, it will make them think about the promises they make to voters.

I always thought that money was going to be held in trust until they voted…to, you know…get their backs.
Obviously, the insurance giants made them sneeze at the tiny amount we could raise to help them do their job.
We shouldn’t have to pay them to work for us, we already do.

I wonder if they can walk this bill back after everything they’ve given in/given over to get this monster to come to life. I see lightning flashing above a dark castle…..

It’s not either/or!

The saddest part is, that nobody sees this reality. Heck, right now there is fighting going on for Ted Kennedy’s seat. “Ted Kennedy’s seat”?? That’s how it’s phrased all over the internet. You KNOW your political party doesn’t give a sh*t about voters when you actually have the audacity to think you are entitled to seats.

Interesting point.

I love it. Bribery of politicians is legal in the US. If they don’t do what you bribed them to do, sue em!

We should have got them to sign a contract…. all legal like.

Bravo Teddy!

I definitely want to ask for our money back – we need to keep holding them accountable.

If it serves the purpose of public humiliation for their lies. Sure, why not?

Please make a correction on the first choice (“Yes, they should return they money”)

Getting even one dime back would be a political miracle, methinks! Maybe progressive political money is better spent on primary challenges where the bad actors can be directly challenged. Or as a reward to those very few courageous Dem conresscritters who will stand up for progressive principles in the face of massive pressure from the villagers to compromise.

How about we agree to send them more money once they bounce Lynn Woolsey out on her ass?

Raul Grijalva may cave on the Public Option promise, but there never would have been a progressive block on the bill for so long without him. Grijalva initiated the idea of taking a stand on the public option, something the CPC had never done before. Mostly, it had languished under the malign neglect of co-chair Woolsey, and spent much of its time trying to work up a lame “shadow budget”, which was happily ignored by the rest of congress.

If progressives like anything that the CPC did in the healthcare fight, it is due to Grijalva.

The money I sent to Grijalva, he can keep. Ditto Grayson, even though he didn’t take the pledge.

But I say we fight to make Lynn Woolsey step down as co-chair of the CPC.

Jane,

You are a wonderful person.

But why do you seek to work within the system?

O/T Nate is now projecting Brown to be a 3-to-1 favorite to win MA Sen seat.

The options may be:

1) a bill with a public option that doesn’t ever pass the senate

2) A bill without a public option that DOES pass.

It’s pretty clear that a public option can’t get 60 votes in the senate.

My QUESTION:

Should liberals and progressives continue to vote for these Democrats who marginalize and take this specific base for granted?

I say NO—Screw Rahm Emanuel and his kind who do not seem to think the liberal and progressive base are that important.

I shed no tears for Martha Coakley either. Soon after winning the primary election, she stated her willingness to go along with the anti-choice provisions in the healthcare bill. During the primary, Coakley said she would not be inclined to vote for this healthcare bill if there was not an abortion provision for women in the bill. After winning the primary, Coakley quickly moved to the center-right…..

The “Feminists” in the Democratic Party have shown themselves to be complete sellouts to women’s health and reproductive issues.

Thanks.

Maybe they should, but they won’t. But I think it’s premature to ask until we know what will pass. With all the convoluted maneuvers thus far, it’s possible that there will be more. If reconciliation is used, I could see a simple Medicare expansion such as Lieberman objected to being included. It wouldn’t be a public option but it would be a size 15 foot in the door.

Excellent advice…already done it in fact. If we don’t give it to these frauds we don’t have to ask for it back.

They should give it back, in a just world. But in this world, probably they won’t. It would be nice to see if they would donate a like dollar amount to relief efforts in Haiti.

Jane,

Ian Welsh had a good article about the Carrot and the Stick ( http://www.ianwelsh.net/no-carrots-for-lawmakers-without-sticks/ ).

Personally, I think a club over the head of the Dems would be appropriate since most of them have been sellouts.

The usual corporate reply:

A bill with a “public option” that not only doesn’t inconvenience the oligarchs too much but actually funnels even more public billion$ to the corporations.

Now taking bets…

thats why its clear the bill should die in the house before ever going back to the senate or to obama for signature.

he’ll probably blame FDL.If he isnt already. i dont go to 538 anymore

You’re gonna have to explain to me how anything passes the Senate with 60 votes if Coakley loses, because I have not heard one single person in either the punditocracy, on capitol hill, among journalists or blog commenters who have has put this out as a possibility. And you’re a smart guy so I’m assuming you’re seeing something that nobody else is.

What does that bill look like, and who is the 60th vote?

Emotionally, this is an easy call.

Strategically, not so much.

One helpful piece of information would be, by each member of the House supported, a distribution chart of the number of contributions by the size of the contribution. The emphasis is that these were contributions by the grassroots.

It would also be helpful to point out that these contributions came from a fair number of folks who really couldn’t afford it at the time but contributed because they wanted to see real healthcare reform.

There should be a request that it be returned; I suspect that there are a few people who could use what they contributed right now.

If possible, their behavior related to this issue should be noted on ActBlue in future campaigns. Contributors deserve to be able to make informed decisions about their contributions.

Then leave it up to them as to whether they will do the honorable thing or stiff their contributors.

And if we don’t now, we need a way of tracing refunds to contributors on ActBlue. It might come in handy if there is ever an FEC problem between a candidate and a donor.

Next time, progressives should put the money in an escrow account and make sure it stays there until the CPC lives up to its side of the bargain. Then, if and/or when they don’t, redirect that money towards primary challenges.

I would even give money, effort and time towards making sure that such an effort is realized.

they should be forced into self-criticism sessions and have to wear pointy hats.

right, we should just let them get all the money they need from AIPAC, and AHIP like the worthless right wing scum bags such as John Boner, and Eric Canter. In fact, we should probably do what useless fat semi literate radio personalities tell us to, right? cause it worked so well for the republicans, and thats why sarah palin is president now. you make me laugh, thank you.

Banksters and Pharma pay massive amounts to politicians for the right to write legislation for the politicians to vote for. The funds we offered were for a very specific vote on a very specific part of a bill. It was really more of a show of how important the progressive community felt that it was and the willingness to support the legislation financially.

In no uncertain terms, each of those who took the pledge must be forced to recognize the dire consequences of breaking that pledge. The atmosphere in the progressive community is of extreme annoyance. A single Senate race is no inoculation for breaking the pledge.

We probably don’t have the whiskers to take out every pledge breaker, but woe to those we target.

One would have to ask President Snowe.

Thinking about it, it would be cheap to ask for it back. it would make us look weak. we should do what AHIP and AIPAC do, give their challengers twice as much

Jane, why does the poll allow multiple votes by the same person?

it dosent. unless you clear your browser and log on again

Fantastic, Hamsher! If they won’t do what makes sense even if we pay them to do it, then send in the collections agent! Tell these good-for-nothing politicians that if they take money from us they have to deliver!

just checked again, it dosent allow me to vote more than once

allright! smellmore is back. i have been waiting for some of the easy meat to show up all day.

The time to knock the wrinkles out is during the primaries. We have long memories over here and smart people. “Were you lying when you took the pledge, or was the vote just a sellout?”

“Is it possible to believe you to take a firm stand on anything given your multiple past positions?”

Too damned easy.

Nope. Allows you another vote every time you do a refresh of this thread.

sure, that could be put to work ….in a PRIMARY.

Ive been doing that and it dosent allow me to. it will refresh the bar graph but there is a mssg which say “sorry” you already voted, this isnt texas,,or something like that

Very funny. As I said, allows me to vote every time. Guess my opinion is much more valuable than yours. *g*

probably have me on a short leash

That’s what primaries are for–and it’s how we got rid of Lieberman…oh wait. Reid and Obama missed the voice of democracy on that one, didn’t they.

Ooops. Got thinking that I missed the message you spoke of, and indeed you are right. I was fooled by the fact that it appeared to let me vote again and the graph popped up as if I did, and I overlooked the message at the top.

It is time for an “Ugly Congressperson” to step in and save the day (a la the “Ugly American”).

Jane, on a purely technical note, that poll didn’t appear for me in the article, because I had Javascript disabled (with exceptions, I use NoScript). Now that I allow Polldaddy to execute Javascript, I can see it here (which is why I’m mentioning this.) Nevertheless, there was a link there in place of it, and I followed it. I just didn’t notice it really until I’d read a few comments here.

My first reaction on seeing the title was “Hell, yes!”, and I didn’t see any need to pay any real attention to links and such.

If Brown wins tomorrow in Massachusetts, the Democrats will finally be able to fall back on, “if it wasn’t for the Republicans, we would have real health care reform in America!”

Then we can start up another fundraising effort to get that 60th vote back in November.

Nothing pisses me off more than arguing with someone who knows what they are talking about. ;>)

Reid and Obama missed the voice of democracy on that one, didn’t they.

each of them are blind in both ears -

I’m curious, too, rwcole. What I took from your comment was that there’d have to be a bill so bad that even Republicans would vote for it. Possibly capital punishment for people who don’t buy insurance, or something along those lines. I kinda agree with Jane that there just may not be such a thing, based on the recent negotiations with Snowe, Grassley, et. al.

In an earlier post, Jon Walker wrote the following:

If Coakley loses in Massachusetts, I don’t see how health care reform passes without reviving reconciliation, and, by default, the public option.

I’m not seeing it happening. They will revive reconciliation to pass the big gifts and giveaways to the insurance and pharmaceutical industries, yes. But I don’t see why Jon or anyone else thinks that they would revive reconciliation to bring back a public option.

Regarding the 65 Dems who got money because they pledged to voted against any bill that did not include a public option, I think they should return it. I wasn’t around at the time and did not contribute to this particular effort, but I wouldn’t be happy about having contributed money, about them taking the money, and then them reneging on it.

I know there have been bigger picture arguments, but certain facts remain:

A) No one forced them to take this pledge.

B) Creating a public option is a great idea (short of a single-payer system). Because of the corporatism that apparently is inherent in the system as it now exists, we’re getting stuck with one of the worst of the bad ideas rather than any one of the good ideas to change the health care system. These 65 and others should be opposing the Senate bill anyway.

Btw, was all of that $430,000 raised by an FDL effort? Were there other groups involved in helping to raise that money?

It’s not clear why you feel the need to try some sort of grade school insult towards me, if that is what you were doing, but you can feel free to not read what I write if you have personal problems with it – thanks in advance

Actually, that’s one of my great pleasures. It’s a learning opportunity, and they are rare.

I liked one of the comments there, which said that this was basically how all the big lobbies do things – give a little money up front, with the promise of more if congressmen do what they’re “supposed to”. It works for me, but in principle they really should return it.

And deaf in both eyes and and and …

Usually, when inevitability sets in, some from the opposition party will break ranks in an effort to lard up the bill for their own state/district. This did not happen here and I think it is unprecedented. I think it is a good call that nothing would sate the bloodlust of republicans for the scalp of the bastid Kenyan usurper.

I suspect that Jon is thinking that the House progressives will buck up and keep their promise, which would block the Senate bill from passing. That might happen, but I don’t see it as too likely.

Progressives are being unreasonable for not willingly die in the traces, yoked to Wellpointe and Aetna forevermore and blissfully allowing the IRS to be the arm of collection. Clearly too many options merely confuses people and it is right to tithe 20% to these benevolent corporations.

die in the traces

heh!

thats a good one.

not many Coakley apologists have gotten back to us after reading this link, that Gitchegumee first posted a couple days ago.

All the leading drug companies have lobbyists on Coakley’s host committee: Pfizer, Merck, Amgen, Sanofi-Aventis, Eli Lilly, Novartis, Astra-Zeneca, and more. On the insurance side of things, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Cigna, Humana, HealthSouth, and United Health all are represented on the host committee.

Go team go!

FDL Wins!! The Libs have taken the path of killing HCR and it will die! Yeaaahhhh! Recently, the posts here have been similar to the bitterness displayed at an ugly divorce hearing. Now, you’ll win that divorce…….Now what? Please spare us the “reconciliation” nonsense. The Dems won’t be able to get FIFTY votes in the Senate if they lose Mass tomorrow. You think they’ve lacked “courage” before? Wait til tomorrow… The President? No Problem! We’ll get a better lib who will “energize the base”….Forget the fact that the current occupant of the Whitehouse is the ONLY Democrat who’s garnered better than 50% of the vote in over 45 years! We’ll just trot out Feingold or Kucinich right?….Obama will probably lose HCR tomorrow. He lost it because he had the stupidity and/or the courage to try to pass this legislation in the teeth of the Great Recession. His party will surely get swamped in the Fall and he may be a 1-term President. But the purists on the Left will win. That “worse than current” HCR will no longer be a factor. So, how does “victory” smell right now?..Do you feel vindicated? Are you “happy” in FDL land? C’mon let’s celebrate! FDL “won”….right?

Blue America Escrow accounts – pledge the money, collect the money. Deliver it after final vote. If an individual congress person votes contrary to their pledge deliver money to a primary challenger. If it is after the primary then return it to donor.

“So you peons thought you could sit at the Buy-A-Rep table? Suuuuure, ante up! C’mon, suckers, we like your money, just as much as anybody’s here..(h/t to Tom Waits), now– Get lost! Your table stake is tiny, there’s two million of you stretched so far back you need the Pony Express to deliver the news to Parking Lot #307D, and we put your table seat behind a pillar!”

Somebody tell me again why we don’t have something like a Progressive Union, with paid Janes ‘n Jacks in suits ‘n all, and a kool TV show, as well as really fun dances and food banks for the hungry and medical banks for the sick and some sharpy lobbyists to deliver direct to their door the baseball bat in the boxing glove? The money’s there–the small-i institutional laser focus can be, too!

That’s how consensus gets made here, folks. We can haz wonks–but we can haz firebreathers too. And clowns. And pugilists. And suits.

Huey Long was no dummeeee. We all have to collectively BeLong. Geddit?

speaking of bitterness …

Should liberals and progressives continue to vote for these Democrats who marginalize and take this specific base for granted?

A better question is should those on the left start to cultivate their own candidates to challenge DINO incumbents and local party neoliberal functionaries? As long as DCCC/DSCC call the shots on who gets the nod nothing will change. I haven’t seen a lot of incumbents primaried in recent years.

Now THAT explains why Obama is campaigning for her! She’s a critical asset of the health insurance and pharmaceutical cartels!

In the immortal word of Blue Texan…………..

In your hearts, did you REALLY believe there would be a different result? We are always going to be a vote short, that’s the game. It’s not just the money corpserations give, it’s the jobs they promise if their person loses in defense of the rich. Short of revolution, I don’t see an answer.

Yes, very happy. Thanks for asking.

If the house passes the senate bill, then the senate doesn’t have to vote again. That seems to be one of the alternatives being considered.

Anyone blaming Coakley’s problems on activist progressives is at least as silly as those who say that they hope she loses. You’re talking about a tiny, tiny percent of the electorate. It’s far more likely that her poorly run campaign and the general economic bad news were the most significant and substantive strikes against her.

This is awesome.

A Coakley defeat = a defeat of heath care!!!

I love FDL, you all are brilliant. Turn Democrats against each other, then at the last minute after its too late, show some faux support.

Once Dem defeat is imminent, go back to taking down health insurance for 30+ million Americans!

Jane = a teabaggers best friend

as far as i can tell, only the senate bill is officially available for conference committee. here’s a edited comment i just made in another thread (links in original):

the house leadership did not substitute their bill for the senate bill (the senate did not use the same bill number — instead they used an unrelated bill the house had already passed. they stripped it and that’s now the senate hrc bill). that is not i think what a house leadership interested in advancing their own bill would do because it means that if there is a real conference committee, at this time only the senate bill can officially be considered. alternatively, if there is no real conference committee, the administration could try to force the senate bill on the house (because then the senate would not have to vote on it again and the MA race would be moot.

here’s an old (jan 1) comment from kagro x explaining the issues (typo altert: the house bill is hr 3962):

H.R. 3590 is the only bill currently eligible to go to conference, but that doesn’t mean it can’t carry the text of H.R. 3692 when it does.

The House can now take up H.R. 3590 as amended by the Senate, and further amend it by striking the entire text as passed by the Senate and substituting instead the text of H.R. 3692, insist on its amendment and request a conference (or simply send it back to the Senate and leave the next step up to them).

Then, if they do agree to enter a conference on H.R. 3590, they’ll go into it with one version with a public option and one without.

Here’s what I don’t get about you FDL’ers.

Why would you already come out strong to defeat a bill when its not even in its final form?

Isn’t that what the Republicans have been doing all along?

Please stop being such a cry baby or we will have to call the Wahmmbulance!!! I am very disappointed in the President especially for LYING TO ME. This Health Bill is DISASTER CAPITALISM and the White House has been using taxpayer money for propaganda from Gruber and Baucus to put lipstick on this pig.

I wish FDL had the influence you suggest. But we can all disagree about Excise Health Care Taxes or Coakley or Sunstein’s new domestic spy program. But your comments blame “libs” in general and firepups in particular. At this site we see the “libs” reference frequently. These type of comments are usually from trolls.

This Senate health bill is Disaster Capitalism. Do you even know what Disaster Capialism means? I will not support a Democratic Party that is a corporatist party. We have one already. If the corporate Dee Cee D’s lose Tuesday or in November, it is because they have betrayed the Democratic Party. Do not blame us.

Hey Mike, I don’t want health insurance, I want health care. Can you see the difference?

There’s a lot of nonsense in your post, and to deal with it all would take too long. The short version is that if you want to build up a strawman version of what we’ve been saying here, go ahead and kick the crap out of it. You’re just not going to convince anyone who wasn’t already.

I will, however, deal with this point:

The Dems won’t be able to get FIFTY votes in the Senate if they lose Mass tomorrow.

There are clearly quite a few who operate on fear, rather than intellect or compassion. So, if they’re going to be afraid of something, I want it to be us. As Thomas Jefferson said:

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

It’s about time things got back to that condition. Showing them that we are willing to take away their power will help do that.

Got this one too, Mike. Because as time goes on, it only gets worser and worser.

Some here are dancing on the grave of health reform like cheap little Lord Of The Flies knock offs, and offering toasts of congratulations from a cup of soaked teabags.

I’m sorry your teabag is soaked and wrinkly, but i’ll not be swilling your skanky brew of wingnard dingleberries of fetid christopathic hatred of all things of questionable pigmentation.

Just a few of the 30 million pig people, bred in the shallow end of the gene pool who think they can type.

We advocate true reform and seek all those who willingly shake off the yoke of corporate paymasters. To those of you who feel ObamaCare is a Gubmint takeover of healthcare, let me explain the opposite is true and it is worse.

President Obama used the Gubmint and private industry to achieve a progressive goal–universal coverage, for the benefit of the party in power and private industry. Private industry agreed to finance the party in power, to the exclusion of the party out of power, and to not defy the efforts. In exchange, they would receive 30 million new customers, no government option, a federal law requiring customers to buy their products, tax dollars for those who can’t afford it, and IRS penalties for those who disobey.

I know that’s a meaty disclosure for some, but it is a fight worth fighting, not in the joy of someone failing, but in the hope of making something better.

I have to say that since the discussion of HCR began here months ago the quality of the trolls has diminished tremendously.

Are you using Ed Schultz’s computer?

They should donate it all to Grover Norquist. He needs our support and the money more than the Democrats or contributors do. Besides, Grover will help us eliminate poor Democratic policy, and eliminate Democrats.

Worse in your opinion. You’ve probably got health care.

Tell that to the 45k people that will continue to die due to lack of insurance.

Tell that to the 40%+ of people who go bankrupt due to medical bills.

Tell that to the millions of elderly that WONT see that doughnut hole filled when this legislation goes down in flames.

If you want a public option, then try and get it later.

This would have put in place a structure that would have acted as a building block to get things going in the right direction.

Sometimes, both corporations AND individuals benefit from legislation. It’s a shame the selfishness of the few with rigid ideologies have decided to destroy the hope of the many.

Anyone who thinks Obama wouldn’t have signed a bill that came on his desk with a public option is out of their mind.

If the Senate could pass it, he would have signed it. Putting the blame on Obama is just stupid and it’s ripping the party apart.

Not by the unions, who think they have a deal.

The donut hole gets worse if the Senate bill passes.

I happen to be one of those 30 million and I hope so called reform dies a quick death. I’m for HCR that does more good than harm.

When yer in the minority, and we progs are, and it’s a LONG slog uphill against corporate domination, you use any leverage you can find . .

I LIKE that, and I’ve watched as FDL and Mz. Hamsher have done so . .

*G*

Tell that to the 40%+ of people who go bankrupt due to medical bills.

It’s +50%, as in more than 50% of bankruptcies in this country are due to overwheming medical expenses.

But here’s the kicker, 75% of those people who went bankrupt already had health insurance.

See the problem?

Health insurance does not equal health care.

No Mike, no insurance. Been unemployed for 10 months, COBRA was a very affordable $1543 per month, but I passed anyway.

Sir, we have a difference of opinion. My opinion is that no way this bill provides health care for 30 million uninsured. I like the medicaid for all under 150% of the poverty level. The rest of this mess isn’t necessary to do that though. SO just do that and punt, but don’t strap the weight of this give-away on the backs of the middle class.

Methinks the unions are in for a nasty surprise.

yeah, i think we havent been good about teaching people what obamas HCR really is. they arent giving anyone health care. in fact, even people who have access to health care now are going to get less. this must be hard for some people to understansd because it is so incredibly monstrous.

“You’ve probably got health care.”

Presumptuous aren’t you.

“Tell that to the 45k people that will continue to die due to lack of insurance.”

You do realize there is a rather significant difference between lack of insurance and lack of care?

“Tell that to the 40%+ of people who go bankrupt due to medical bills.”

You do realize that many of those people have insurance. Again, it’s not lack of insurance, but lack of care.

“This would have put in place a structure that would have acted as a building block to get things going in the right direction”

They’d go in a direction, but wouldn’t be the right one.

“Sometimes, both corporations AND individuals benefit from legislation”

This isn’t one one of them

“Anyone who thinks Obama wouldn’t have signed a bill that came on his desk with a public option is out of their mind.
If the Senate could pass it, he would have signed it. Putting the blame on Obama is just stupid and it’s ripping the party apart.”

And what stops the Senate from passing the PO with 51 votes? 60 votes is an artificial threshold. There’s already talk of using reconciliation, so the PO can be put in then.

Sorry but the Dems don’t “fear” you. Why should they? According to Gallup’s year-end polling, 40% of Americans identify themselves as “Conservative”….36% are self-identified as “Moderate”…The remainder consider themselves “Liberal”….Assuming you’re in that 26% category, no one’s afraid. You want to see “fear”? Watch congress IF Mass is lost. Too many forget that there was not the requisite majority who would support a “robust Public option” in the Senate OR the House bill. My point was that Obama may have made a critical error in trying to produce this legislation in THIS economic environment. Since the Mass election MAY dovetail nicely with many posts here; there should be celebration in anticipation ….Trust me, Grover Norquist will be celebrating. That’s no “straw man”.

Geez, that post is all sorts of wrong:

This would have put in place a structure that would have acted as a building block to get things going in the right direction.

No, no, the only structural elements that couldhave been built on were removed from the Senate bill. The house bill has a Public Option which could have been built on, if it were to pass, which is not likely.

Sometimes, both corporations AND individuals benefit from legislation.

Yeah, sometimes. Not in this particular case.

It’s a shame the selfishness of the few with rigid ideologies have decided to destroy the hope of the many.

Take it up with rigid ideologues Lieberman, Nelson and Ross.

I’m guessing this comment was directed at me. The elimination of the pre-existing condition has a fraud exception, which is what they claim in every case. California has a similar law but had to give up enforcement because the insurance companies fought each case, hammer and tongs. Reid put a cap on claims, so people will still file bankruptcy. etc. etc.

Do not confuse this as policy driven–it is contribution driven. And to make the absurd claim that the titular head of the Democratic party is some sort of innocent bystander victimized by some Senator identifies you as an unserious political observer. Rahm told Reid to give Lieberman everything he wants. Rahm works for Obama. Obama made the deal with the Health Insurance swells. Everyone paying attention knows this.

Please explain how the donut hole gets worse please Jane as you are the first person I’ve heard to be claiming this.

Could all these reports be wrong?

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=senate+bill+donut+hole&aq=0&aqi=g1&oq=senate+bill+donu&fp=aa0e561cd8821793

Hey, they were ALL fucked up then . . . some still are . . . many have died.

I never liked Van Halen, but Eddie was a gitslinger in his time . .

Gimme Bloomfield. I used to really like Cipollina, till I realized it was Gary Duncan doing the parts git wise I really loved.

If I want fast and furious git work I avoid the electric rock and head for the grassy side.

Any youtube of Tony Rice will state my case, and then you can hit Doc Watson and then Norman Blake.

Course, I DID really like Peter Green, Danny Kirwin, Jeremey Spencer, too . . . .

Whoops, too much musics . . . my bad . . ;-)

they dont have any right to be suprised. when EFCA is buried permanently. Or if they follow the HCR if it does come up whatever they pass aill make it even HARDER than it is now to join a union. But queen liberman says it wont come up, so you can be sure of that.

“Hi, I’m George W Bush, did I hear you called my name?”

Damn, Teddy, that’s a huge thought . . . .

I LOVE the smell of this!

“Too many forget that there was not the requisite majority who would support a “robust Public option””
Bullshit. you fucking lying sack of shit. The HCR plans that were polled REQUIRED the robust PO to maintain a majority of public support, and those plans consistently polled between 60 -75% favorable. you are a lying cocksucker. its to be expected from your kind.

Only for oppositionist progs . . . yer now outed, fully.

DLC are ya?

Republican

I put up a synopsis at 103. I value your opinion and would like to know if I got anything wrong with this:

President Obama used the Gubmint and private industry to achieve a progressive goal–universal coverage, for the benefit of the party in power and private industry. Private industry agreed to finance the party in power, to the exclusion of the party out of power, and to not defy the efforts. In exchange, they would receive 30 million new customers, no government option, a federal law requiring customers to buy their products, tax dollars for those who can’t afford it, and IRS penalties for those who disobey.

About right?

The MSM and the other talking heads are trying to ignore and down play the power of Progressives.

All of sudden Mass is control by Independents voters.

How many talking heads would say that John Smith Democrat is winning in the South Carolina Senate race because Independents voters in S.C. are going to vote for a Dem? None! Because S.C. is a dark red state the only way a Dem can win S.C. is if the GOP base stays home. This same logic applies to MASS. The only way a GOP candidate can win in MASS is if the Dem Base Stays home.

Coakley is a conserverDem, and the day of the conserverdem is coming to an end.

The MSM and the white house talking heads want to ignore the obvious the DEM BASE is pissed off. Obama is a fraud.

Bush divided the USA, if you want to govern like a Republican conserverdems go join the GOP.

The elites do not want PROGRESSIVES to know the power they have.

I am glad that Jane reached out to the tea party, because GOP leaders are trying to hijack that movement.

The elites like the current USA govt. (govt by corporations for corporations)

Progressives need to listen closely the MSM never says that Progressives control elections. Why? The elites fear progressives.

It is hillarious to think that a GOP candidate can win MASS, unless the DEM Base stays home.

Chuck Todd, Howard Fineman, and other talking heads need to stop treating Americans citizens like morons.

Progressives need to organize and elect real progressives.

Someone said why can’t they pass a PO with budget reconciliation.

PERFECT IDEA.

But you can forget many of the rest of the reforms as they won’t pass the Byrd rule.

A better idea would have been pass the current bill then pass the PO via reconciliation.

But, none of that matters now. Coakley will lose. Brown will vote lock step with the Republicans and filibuster.

None of the changes the House want to be done with the bill will happen.

Either they pass it and accept the Senate bill and try and jam through changes that will pass the Byrd Rule via reconciliation or you can forget about anything for another generation because of a bunch of ideologues decided its all or nothing first go around.

TruthHurts was referring to majority in the SENATE, and he/she’s probably correct. The Dems almost always come up one vote short. They’re funny that way.

Further more, we all appreciate your respectful manner. Lovely.

That’s a post you continue to repeat . . . . word for word now, for a while.

Nice talking points . . . .

What ELSE ya got for reasoning?

I’m not saying yer right or wrong, I’m pointin out, you have posted the SAME fucking shit over and over.

What’s your point?

And BTW your instantaneous conflating of some hand picked gallup opinion poll with the alleged lack of support among a handful of professional politicians in the senate was a affront to the truth worthy of rush limbuagh, NAY! glen beck! how would you know if the “truthhurts” ive seen your other craptastic comments. you dont ever come anywhere near the fucking truth

No Mike, not all or nothing. SOMETHING or nothing. I think that’s what a lot of us are saying. Give us SOMETHING, and I don’t mean Rahm’s little goody bag.

i dont owe you anything princess

Funny, even in Connecticut, home of Ann Coulter’s favorite democrat, the public option was way yonder popular. He’s the guy Obama told Rahm to tell Reid to tank the Public Option.

Kisses

I do. Thank you yknoodled. Your kindness and civility is appreciated.

I’m with ya, but hell, can’t even convince my misses, let alone the masses.

Yes, it is a strawman, because that’s not what I said. I said I want them to fear us, not that they did. Either learn better reading comprehension skills or ask questions instead of making statements.

Cipollina was by far the better musician imo. Seen QMS many times. Too bad there’s so little footage of the band. Lots of Cipollina with Terry and the Pirates though. I love his guitar work. Cobra.

Ha Ha Ha! He’s giving them an out. They’re ascrairt to betray their base who they accepted the money from (myself included), or they’re holding up the show because they actually do have a sense of honor. He’s giving them an opportunity to make a big speech “I can’t in good conscience, blah blah blah…” and then he’ll make sure our money is repaced by Cigna’s. He’ll say “See, Ellison, no harm no foul…” Transparent, and it won’t get them off the hook in November.

: )

Nobody here can say Obama would NOT have signed a bill with the public option. If the Senate could pass it, he would have signed it.

Second, I still don’t understand how this site decided to turn Democrats against a bill that wasn’t even finalized.

I don’t think we’ll ever know what the final bill was going to look like now with a Coakley defeat. The filibuster will defeat this bill now.

The hopes of millions was just crushed.

Rallying against a bill part way through the process doesn’t make sense imho…sorry.

MikefromArlington what did you say when Clinton gave the USA NAFTA?

MikefromArlington, the current HCR bill is not progressive, nothing in the HCR bill is progressive, why not let GOP congress vote for Obama HCR Bill. Don’t be fool the GOP could vote for this SCAM.

HCR is another product of Madison Ave.

What the marketing people in the Obama Adminstration done was name an Insurance Profit Plan, Health Care Reform. (the stock market does not lie! if the Insurance companies hated this bill, their stocks prices would fall.)

Bush marketing people gave us NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND, and guess what happen all the kids got left behind.

Calling a bill that benefits big pharma and insurance companies Health Care Reform is very deceptive.

SUN TZU says it best, all war is base on Deception.

It is sorta like calling a war Operation Iraqi Liberation O.I.L.

Conserverdems are dinosaurs, blame BUSH he destroyed the concept of a conserverdem.

There is no middle only the radical left and the radical right.

for example, would you say that John Smith Democrat in South Carolina is leading the S.C. senate race because independent voters in S.C. are going to vote dem? No, you would say the GOP base of S.C. is staying at home. This same logic applies to MASS. All elections after BUSH will be BASE elections period.

Coakley is a conserverdem or dinosaur, and like dinosaurs she is extinct.

I’m with Teddy and you . . . this is a great call by Mz. Hamsher, AFAIC . . . .

Ride the pressure on HCR, lift it to a new level . . . make the Prog Caucas feel it, set an example for the rest of the dem’s, conserva to prog . .

Fuck, I remember when all dem’s were mostly in agreement on all issues . . . .

I miss simple times, but I relish prog movements . . . now, more than ever.

Moreso even when in my teens in the 60′s . . . .

Truth and facts do not have sides. Before man could discern–in the hottest furnace–in absolute zero–in dark–in light–and in all known dimensions, there can be no debate on facts. It is what irritates me about the MSM. “The debate continues on gravity or the earth sux. Film at eleven.”

Artie Ole Buddy, how long have you preached here?

I forget.

And why do you constantly preach against FDL, the progs, and Mz. Hamsher’s efforts for progressivism?

Are you AGAINST progress, or rights for the masses?

What do you stand for, Artie old chum?

What are your beliefs? Why are you ON this blog, Artie?

I’m just curioius . . .*G*

I wonder what his decision to spin those numbers is related to . . . .

Mike, Obama left me feeling that he was being disingenous. He was talking up the PO, but then he was hinting it wasn’t important, then he would talk it up. Then there was the secret pharma deal. As a professional sales engineer I’ve gotten pretty good at spotting liars. In my professional opinion, Obama fits the bill. Your results may vary.

Don’t know much about ya, but the women’s right to choose is MY barometer and litmus test for where someone stands in regards to wanting to help the masses, or restrict them in any way, shape, manner or form.

How one decides women’s rights invariably, to my experience, tells all about a person.

Men opposed to women’s rights are misogynist, women opposed to women’s rights are usually well kept, or bound to their survival by the men they seek.

I spit on them all. To the victims of all of this? Women, children? I weep for all of them.

With Coakley out, the Senate will become a stalemate.

Republican will not compromise on anything. They will gain more seats in 2012 no doubt and possibly gain the majority considering how they are doing a good job and laying blame on the Democrats while they eat themselves.

At that point, people like Inhofe will be chairman of the Environment and Public works committee.

If you’ve got a problem with legislation not being progressive enough, just wait till Republicans are back in power.

Democrats need to fire people up but don’t point guns inward, point them at the people that have no interest in governing and implementing anything that remotely resembles progressive legislation.

Anyways, maybe I’m way off but that’s the way I see things.

Obama traded away the public option to the health insurance industry very early on in the process. This is very well documented. He did not want the health insurance industry opposing his efforts and financing republicans in weak democratic districts. For some reason, this is a blind spot for you.

Ouch.

I don’t give money to politicians but hypothetically speaking what if i had given one of the guys money to only vote on a bill that did not contain a public option. Now we have both donated who should be the one they are accountable too?

Whose side are ya on, what do you believe in?

I can’t get a handle on yas . . . you flip more times than a dolphin at Water World.

And you often don’t speak in clear terms, you LOVE the ambiguous . . .

Are you a prog? On ALL issues, regarding the general masses?

WTF do you believe?

changing the subject again? you are a really deft and quick subject changer

On that, I’m with you . . . . bust ‘em, Dano.

Wow dude, who made you hall monitor?

Lynn Woolsey campaigned and rasied funds for Blue Dog and WarHawk Jane Harman, who is also one of the richest reps in Congress. This is not a talking point, there were front page posts at FDL about it.

Woolsey is co-chair of the CPC, she should not be helping members of congress who are dead-set against the kinds of things that progressives want. Again, a fact, not a talking point.

Raul Grijalva became co-chair of the CPC only recently. Since then the CPC has stepped up its efforts to act like a real caucus, something it never did under Woolsey. Additionally, Woolsey has been a poor spokesman for progressive policies, too often taking her opponent’s argument for the starting point of the discussion, when her responses were not muddled and dithering.

I’m not saying she’s evil or owned outright. I’m not talking about her motives at all. I’m suggesting that, to make progressives stronger, we need our leaders in congress to be stronger progressives.

I don’t see what’s so earth-shattering about that opinion that it engenders such suspicion on your part.

Hi Rahm (waving).

If the Senate doesn’t have 60 votes for the public option, they don’t have 60 votes for the public option.

Obama wanting the public option doesn’t matter one inkling.

If I were in the admin and I realized I couldn’t get the PO I would have done the same and played down the importance of it too in order to get some grassroots support behind the bill.

But instead, many went in the opposite direction because it was all or nothing for them.

Whose side are you on? Do you favor support and encouragement for the masses?

Or do you prefer the 1% Rich Means?

Pick one, I dare ya.

“Nobody here can say Obama would NOT have signed a bill with the public option. If the Senate could pass it, he would have signed it.”

Poor powerless POTUS. It’s not like Obama said to give Lieberman whatever he wanted, murdered the Dorgan amendment and cut deals with PhRMA. PhRMA cut deals with Obama because Obama was powerless – yeah, right.

“Second, I still don’t understand how this site decided to turn Democrats against a bill that wasn’t even finalized.
I don’t think we’ll ever know what the final bill was going to look like now with a Coakley defeat. The filibuster will defeat this bill now.”

So if your criticism is valid that it is wrong to be against something before it is finalized, it would follow that it would be wrong to be for something before it is finalized. For you to intellectual honest you can’t claim any benefits that are lost due to the bill not being finalized.

“Rallying against a bill part way through the process doesn’t make sense imho…sorry.”

So you’d wait until things were all done? The train would have left the station and then you decide to speak up. A day late and a dollar short.

Because we are not contributing enough to FDL.

Anyone is “entitled” to an opinion here in America. At present, but dont come on here among the many who worked hard to keep the slimy snakes in the MSM and in washington from shifting the focus off what they said, and what the people wanted. the truth that really seems to hurt some DLC defenders on this blog, is that the people wanted the PO. For what it was worth, and that dosent really matter. They had the opportunity to do what they were elected to do, and they did what they are paid to do. end of discussion. you can try to claim it never was so, truthhurt or whoever else, but not to me. I was here for the whole fucking movie.

Because the health insurance cartel has more money (collected by the IRS) to make it bigger.

It is what they do.

Second, I still don’t understand how this site decided to turn Democrats against a bill that wasn’t even finalized.

Stop the worthless lying.

Also stop catapulting the neo-con propaganda. There’s lots of D’s here regularly such as myself. Why here at FDL? Nowhere has this issue been examined with more concern than at this site. In fact most of the journalistic coverage has been pathetically corporatist. We have seen PhRMA’s Secret Deal, Baucus’ Shill Bill written by a health insurance whore, the Nebraska Compromise for medicaid money and so on. Too much investigatin’ for ya?

One thing not commented on, is how lazy Barack Obama has actually been in promoting “reform”. He has not put out effort or fought for anything worthwhile. The Whitehouse did promote phony propaganda from Gruber, which now seems very Bushie. The last minute Coafley campaigning also show his laziness and isolation from reality. There has been no leadership from our President and guess what we get. But the Deal was made long ago so why would Obama need to do any real work for Health Care. Taxpayer money goes to corporations. That is the neo-con way.

Obama wanting the public option doesn’t matter one inkling.

That is funny.

Being against certain aspects of a bill that is incomplete is one thing.

Wanting it to go down in defeat even before it is finalized is something different.

Regardless, I see you skipped the part where I said Obama would have signed a bill with a PO if he could get 60 votes to break a filibuster.

That’s the point everyone rallying against this President are unwilling to acknowledge.

But, since you know so much, explain how you would have gotten Lieberman to break the filibuster please.

Oh now yer all guilty and victimized?

Funny behavior for a prog blog . . . .

Who you work for?

This seems to be the crux of the problem. Obama in a desire to get a win (the nice interpretation as opposed to Obama being a lying corporatist) traded away everything that would have made healthcare reform good in exchange for wimping out of a fight. Even this kind interpretation shows Obama as both being Mr Wimpy as well as someone who doesn’t care about the effects of the legislation they work on creating. Mr Wimpy shouldn’t be in the White House, precisely when he does the complete opposite of what he said he would do – all talk, but a yellow steak a mile wide when it comes to action. Again, this is the kind interpretation as opposed to him actually not being wimpy rather than someone who is a fierce advocate of the corporate lobbyists over the interests of the public.

Die In The Traces . . . a coal mine reference?

I’m beginning to like ya . . . thanks for your comments . . . .

dont let the dishonest and the ignorant re write the hsitory of this thing. thats called”spin” and thats how they control public opinion.

Again, painfully, you’d prefer Brown?

The hole was referring to the prescription drug donut hole that was going to be filled with the PhRMA deals that were cut and were being negotiated in the final bill to get another 20 billion in cuts….but none of this matters any longer.

Coakley will lose, any improvements to the Senate bill are long gone memories.

Myself, I’m looking forward to voting against Obama in 2012 and anyone else who crosses me. He’ll give such a nice concession speech, I’m sure.

: )

If he didn’t want the health Ins. Industry opposing his plans why did he bother? Did he really think these thugs would just go along with reforms quietly? Seems to me he made a deal with these guys way back and then just set up this kabuki dance for the rest of us. The results were pre-determined at the auction. My gues the extortion here started with ObamaRahma way back and now the other side of the extortion racket moves to what happens to the rest of us. !st Obama and his gang get their pay offs and then we pay back the Health gangs every dime plus a dollar having to buy their lousy crap or else. Nice group we put in office , apparently these Chicago mobsters learned the Al Capone lessons early on didn’t they? Hope? Change? LOL what a bunch of suckers we all were.

If you knew anything, you would know that Jane got slammed from the left (single payer or die) for sticking with the PO for so long.

Please tell Rahm to hire better trolls.

I know the strawman you are trying to erect.

Badda boom, badda bing . . . you from Jersey or New York?

*G*

yeah, those who were in washington must’ve been able to see there would be NO public plan of any kind. It was smart to use there own “middle ground” to catch them in the big lie. what they had assumed, is that they could centrally controll the spin and in the past it would have been easy, because it took facts so long to dissemintate. now becasue of the internet, thier lies were widely know the next day. they stuck to the plan though and some of them are furious. I geatly admire Jane Hamshire. They must really be giving her a boatload of shit. she dosent have to do this. if she got on board with them they would make her life easier.

Oy, cripes. I thought van Holleran was the instigator of the poll. Need to read more carefully before I’ve got coffee.

Ha Ha Ha.

: )

I SWEAH by my yellow parasol these people are talkin to themselves but using different names.

It’s enough to make a person feint from the exhaustion . . . .

I’m not trying to erect anything.

I just think its a shame Democrats are going after Democrats is all when I think the effort would be better served to take out as many Republicans as possible and over time replace the conservadems with more liberal or progressive Dems.

It’s depressing to watch.

When Coakley loses, the Senate bill becomes irrelevent – there will be one less senator voting for it. Good.

mikefromarlington

Obama and the dems in congress are not idiots. They are puppets of the corporations. the polls show that the majority of the USA hates this HCR bill.

Every politician wants to know, who is going to clap if I vote for this bill? The left and right hate this HCR bill.

I can see the GOP and PROGRESSIVE commercials now, John Smith Dem is going to make you buy Insurance from Blue Cross and if you don’t you will be fined by the IRS.

MikefromArlington, remember this is not a PROGRESSIVE BILL, so the left will attack Dems who vote for this bill.

MikefromArlington, politicians want to get re-elected, and first term presidents want a second term. REMEMBER THIS.

If Obama signs this HCR bill, he will face a primary and probably get slaughtered.

This is not 1994.

Bush divided the USA.

The elites wanted Obama to stop and destroy the Progressive Movement, they underestimated how piss the progressive base really is.

The elites like a divided nation, it helps maintain the status quo.

However, there is one big problem, if you listen to the left and right, their messages are starting to overlap.

Jane saw this before most political weather people did it was a very smart move for her to reach out to the right.

At the end of the day, people want govt by the people for the people.

Obama and Dems just don’t do shock docrine well.

The netroots are the most active and will be the most organize voting block in the USA in 2010 and in 2012.

The MSM that use to keep the elites safe from the masses is dying.

Harry Reid is probably getting a lot of calls, asking him who is going to clap if I vote for HCR?

its a shame, it really really is. a disgraceful shame. but thats the way it is. those elected democrats arent representing our best interests mike, they are serving their corporate masters. the worst thing about this HCR bill is that its probably a pretty dark look at whats in store for us in the coming years.

Hope and Change, soleroso. Don’t stop thinkin about tomorrow. Yesterdays gone, yesterday’s gone. Fired up yet? Ready to go?

Cheers.

Your post is abolutely correct. I observed that many here should celebrate the victory that they fought so hard to achieve (co-opting Grover Norquist!?). Most of the response was foul language and name calling. Many forgot to “Be careful what you wish for”….If the dems lose Mass tomorrow, it will leave a deep wound. We will no longer have to worry about the “Gruber” conspiracies and “kill the bill” themes that populate the posts here.

“bama will probably lose HCR tomorrow. He lost it because he had the stupidity and/or the courage to try to pass this legislation in the teeth of the Great Recession. His party will surely get swamped in the Fall and he may be a 1-term President.”

L0L i thought your are a liar. oh me. you are just really clueless and deeply into this epic narrative of yours. If Obama loses on HCR (AND I HOPE TO GOD HE DOES) it will be one of the very few instances of the interestsof the people being served in washington in a very very long time. If obama is a one term president ( and im very ambivalent about that) it will be because he dosent desrve to be reelected. get over it. hes not the savior.

Aside from your premise, I agree with your end result.

Nothing will change without the will of the people being exerted, in a strong way.

Without the will of the people, the rich will lose what they have.

It’s a class struggle . . . . nothing more, nothing less . . .

American’s ain’t so well bred or borne or educated any more to get that.

The Progs do . . . . and frankly, I think the masses are getting hip to the screwing . . .

Gonna be interesting . . . . I hope I live to see a change for the better . . .

LOL. Im old. i got to have the 60′s. if anything they were more fun than you’ve heard. i pity you youngsters. enjoy!

And that would ensure the worst possible scenerio . . . . I assume you know this.

We’re all waiting to see what the House proposes . . . balls in their court . . .

Then you are incredibly stupid. Go back and read FDL from last June when we only needed 40 House Dems to block the war supplemental. We could not even get that from the seventy member progressive caucus.

It is about the money.

Back in June, Jane drew a very wise line in the sand. Do not support any reform which does not at least include a robust public option. We all hoped for single payer, but we understood that we might not have the votes.

Then we watched Dem after Dem claim they were in favor of a public option, when they were simply selling out to the money, the health insurance cartel. Dems take turns being Democrats. They take turns voting no in cloture votes so they always lose. Then suddenly we get guys like you telling us the IRS should collect money for the health insurance cartel to sell shitty insurance that ends up costing the taxpayers even more down the road.

Think more about good government versus bad government. Then apologize to Jane and contribute real dollars to FDL.

Who do you work for?

Agree, my nickname for her is Jane of Arc.

the legislation could have been corrected over time. elements as strong PO’s to be included in the insurance exchange that have been proven through CBO to be huge cost savings could easily have passed the Byrd Rule at a later date.

I just hope the House passes it as is and fixes it via passing items such as the PO through reconciliation, if that’s even possible anymore.

Only problem is now is the MASS seat was one of the PO supporters, this means the count of those who would vote for it, even via reconciliation is down to what? 50? 49 even?

I fear meaningful reform is dead for another decade or two until they either get back a super majority or at least get 50 Senators with the courage to pass some strong reforms like the PO via reconciliation.

political suicide for many house members. the “blue dogs” as we have been told and told are in deep shit, but the alledgedly safe liberals dont know how safe they are now, thanks to us.(good job us!) so keep up the pressure. if youve stopped calling DONT stop.

i dont make deals like that. only a truly pathetic and desperate sap would make a deal like that. maybe if there were no mandate fine. but im not willing for 35 million or so people to be put at the mercy of the insurance industry .no way.

I’m just a dude in his PJ’s blogging is all.

That’s good because you’d be getting erectile dysfunction. I’m not interested in political parties (I don’t belong to one and never have nor do I ever intend to), but rather in good legislation.

the legislation could have been corrected over time

Is that like my tax dollars supporting the war effort in the Middle East? When will that get corrected?

When will my tax dollars being used for torture get corrected??

When will Wall Street quit privatizing profits at the same time they socialize their losses with my tax dollars? We voted Democratic, because we thought the worst Bush policies would get corrected.

When will these corrections start?

“JESUS, MARY

King of England, render account to the King of Heaven of your royal blood. Return the keys of all the good cities which you have seized, to the Maid. She is sent by God to reclaim the royal blood, and is fully prepared to make peace, if you will give her satisfaction; that is, you must render justice, and pay back all that you have taken.

King of England, if you do not do these things, I am the commander of the military; and in whatever place I shall find your men in France, I will make them flee the country, whether they wish to or not; and if they will not obey, the Maid will have them all killed. She comes sent by the King of Heaven, body for body, to take you out of France, and the Maid promises and certifies to you that if you do not leave France she and her troops will raise a mighty outcry as has not been heard in France in a thousand years. And believe that the King of Heaven has sent her so much power that you will not be able to harm her or her brave army.

To you, archers, noble companions in arms, and all people who are before Orleans, I say to you in God’s name, go home to your own country; if you do not do so, beware of the Maid, and of the damages you will suffer. Do not attempt to remain, for you have no rights in France from God, the King of Heaven, and the Son of the Virgin Mary. It is Charles, the rightful heir, to whom God has given France, who will shortly enter Paris in a grand company. If you do not believe the news written of God and the Maid, then in whatever place we may find you, we will soon see who has the better right, God or you.

William de la Pole, Count of Suffolk, Sir John Talbot, and Thomas, Lord Scales, lieutenants of the Duke of Bedford, who calls himself regent of the King of France for the King of England, make a response, if you wish to make peace over the city of Orleans! If you do not do so, you will always recall the damages which will attend you.

Duke of Bedford, who call yourself regent of France for the King of England, the Maid asks you not to make her destroy you. If you do not render her satisfaction, she and the French will perform the greatest feat ever done in the name of Christianity.

Done on the Tuesday of Holy Week (March 22, 1429). HEAR THE WORDS OF GOD AND THE MAID.”

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/joanofarc.html

are you number two? dammit are you number two!!

mikefromarlington.

you really think this is Health Care Reform.

Madison Ave is good.

Why do you think we are in Iraq?

Have you ever heard of the Hope A Dope?

Obama talks like a progressive during the 2008 campaign but governs like Bush.

Actions speak a lot louder than words.

You are starting to sound like Robert Gibbs, laughing, being a conserverdem is like being in a no man land in 2010.

Obama has better start governing like FDR or he will be Hoover

fuck you

and the noble archers you rode in on

The structure could have been put in place and the PO could have been put in later via reconciliation is all I’m saying.

That’s what people should push for. It would be the easiest way to go imho.

Passing the strong PO along with everything else was impossible from the start it seemed since idiots like Lieberman exist to only piss off liberals.

I guess that makes me stupid. :(

Selise . . . . that’s old info . . . we are into ping pong now . .

And we are waiting to see what the House does, cuz Pelosi does NOT have votes to support fully, the Senate Piece Of Shit.

THAT, darling, is good news, I don’t know how you’d spin it any other way.

But until the House moves, nothing can happen.

And once they do, the Senate is all phooked in many ways.

Hence the Senate might do reconciliation to pass original bill, but then there’s the Byrd Bill to hamper that shit.

So what’s my point?

There’s HUGE pressure on folks from many areas, folks being Obama, Rahama, dem’s, Senate, House.

I hope I don’t have to redescribe the pressures for you . .

Until the House shows their cards, the Senate and Obama can’t do shit.

And THAT, Dear Firedog Friend, is how this shit rolls.

And that, is how pressure rawkhs, on Obama and the Dem’s . . . the longer this draws out, the more pissed off the masses become, and the better change progressive add on’s to the piece of shit Senate Billl might fare.

As in much of your critiques of Mz. Hamsher, this blog and critical affairs, I think yer wrong and I disagree with you posits.

Are you a progressive? You’ve been here longer than I . . . I don’t really know if yer a progressive.

Time to turn over the cards, Selise.

Who are ya, what do you support?

-Respectfully, A Prog Named Larue

Well fuck you too. Joan of Arc rules.

“since idiots like Lieberman exist to only piss off liberals.”

joe liberman exists only to get whats in it for joe liberman. aparently thats why we have connecticut too

So if reconciliation could have been used earlier to get better legislation, the Democrats were incompetent instead of lying about needing 60 votes and hoisting themselves by their own petards. The legislation would have happened earlier and it would have been better and this whole MA wouldn’t be nearly the issue that it is today because of what Obama and other Democrats did. Sorry, but after the Democrats saying they needed 60, then now saying they don’t need 60 is lying opportunism and it causes me not to trust them as Democrats refused to do meaningful reform earlier so there’s no reason to expect them to do meaningful reform later.

This may have been said here already, but our donations to a particular candidate should be pooled, and then offered with a written contract to be signed, dated, and treated in accordance with all the other legal niceties to make it as binding as we want it to be.
Big questions: would we ever get any takers?

joan of arc is dead. she was burned alive by the english, who ravaged france for two more generations after “the maid” split for heaven.

What’s funny is that if Coakley loses, all that smirking and posturing from Lieberman becomes irrelevant. Lieberman the irrelevent, they’ll call him.

: )

As of today, Pelosi don’t HAVE the votes to pass the Senate Bill as is . . .

Or, this piece of shit Senate Bill would be on Obama’s desk to sign off on . .

Things have developed light years from a week ago . . . .

Yes, but she kicked their ass sideways until the punk betrayed her, and they never broke her. More than we can say for the house.

I guess that makes me stupid.

We all agree you are.

Bonus!

thats one of the several possible good outcomes of her losing

If the Senate doesn’t have 60 votes for the public option, they don’t have 60 votes for the public option.

Obama wanting the public option doesn’t matter one inkling.

If I were in the admin and I realized I couldn’t get the PO I would have done the same and played down the importance of it too in order to get some grassroots support behind the bill.

So, you have 55 people want to go one way and five who want to go the other. You are there leader. Is it infinitely wiser to tell the 55 how out of step they are and they must fall in line behind Lieberman, Baucus, Lincoln, Landrieu and Nelson, or to tell the 5 to get with the 55?

The fact that all Administrative pressure was for the majority to support the minority of the democratic caucus tells us where the administrations predilictions lie. At no time was the five ever pressured for anything. The administration got the bill the administration wanted, because it was what they worked for.

Is that like my tax dollars supporting the war effort in the Middle East? When will that get corrected?

When will my tax dollars being used for torture get corrected?

When will Wall Street quit privatizing profits at the same time they socialize their losses with my tax dollars? We voted Democratic, because we thought the worst Bush policies would get corrected.

When will Dems reinstate the 4th Amendment? When will that get corrected?

im not sure what she means to us today. unless “we” are french, or catholic. I love, or did love, some history too. its all so deressingly the same after a while though.

Great Post! 209

Yer kwestions wierd, why would ask it?

nonne of that matters now. there will be time for long discussions about obamas complicty or negligence in the future. we still have to get this WRETCHED bill bumped off.

I have nothing against expansion of the war in Afghanistan. Obama even campaigned on that.

Not sure why people are suddenly surprised.

Only a fraction of the TARP went to financial institutions during this administration. They’ve gotten much of it back and they are working to get more of it back via the new tax that incentivizes banks to capitalize by lowering the tax when lower leveraging is obtained.

Anyways, this argument could go on forever. I get it, you’re pissed. Easiest to blame the “establishment.”

THEY MUST GIVE BACK THE MONEY.NO EXCEPTIONS.

x2

The trolls are out overtime tonight. Do they really think they can pin Croakley’s perfunctory campaigning and Obama’s triangulating himself into a corner on… a blogger?

“I am became Jane Hamsher, Destroyer of Supermajority Political Parties!”

- Bob Grimpenheimer at the Los Alamos Trinity caucus

hear hear

MIkey’s a long time DLC or DCCC troller . . . . and has PROVEN it!

He’s not as good as the new ones they send to this blog, though.

But he was good, or obvious, in his short stay . . . funny that he’s back.

So, are YOU a progressive?

“grimpenhiemer” ?

Yes, it does . . . and so does care as we know it . . . I think ample evidence of this has been proven in your blog, by your bloggers . . . I tire of their BS rhetoric, I have NO idea how you deal with it . . .

Yer a better person than I . . . . and so is your crew.

*G*

“I have nothing against expansion of the war in Afghanistan. Obama even campaigned on that. ”

Jesus Kee-ryist mike from arlington. if i wasnt willing to call you, something, before i surely am now. If this is the obama supporter mind in a nut shell (pun intended) then the faster he and his supporters are gone the better. that was really really bad.

“im not sure what she means to us today. unless “we” are french, or catholic. I love, or did love, some history too. its all so deressingly the same after a while though.”

Attitude. Quit being such a grimpenheimer.

In which way?

They been selliin out their members for decades . . .

It’s a sad state of affairs . . .

I love it. NO ONE will no what im talking about. I know “they dont anyway solerso”.

“MIkey’s a long time DLC or DCCC troller . . . . and has PROVEN it!”

You people are no different than the conspiracy theorists on the right.

It’s pretty comical how if someone doesn’t come to this site and worship at Jane’s feet you’re a DCC shrill or something.

Some folks like myself realize there are political realities. Not saying activists are useless but to expect perfect legislation every time will get you nowhere. Legislation can always be fixes.

I bet this site would have railed against social security in its original form because it didn’t cover farmers too.

Thank God blogs like this didn’t exist in FDR’s time. lol

Hmm, not so easy to put in a slot. Certainly feel single payer is the best option. Make my money off those I rail against. Can be bought. Love me some great outdoors. Fight authority (always lose). Listen to Modest Mouse. Equal rights fan. Bullies piss me off. Think capitalism is preditory. My southern friends scatch their heads.

I think he meant EFCA. The feeling is that unions are expecting some favorable treatment on EFCA which is, if you’ve been watching, kind of nutzo to expect.

Cripes, no kidding, Obama gets a pass on the dead kids according to mikey. What a tool.

I like this idea. This is how it should work. We donate funds to a holding account and the money is reserved for the politicians. When they vote as they said or promised, they get the money. If they don’t, they don’t get the money. In order for it to succeed, they would have to get daily notifications of how much is waiting for them after their vote. If they don’t vote as expected, the funds could be reallocated to someone else.

I have nothing against expansion of the war in Afghanistan. Obama even campaigned on that.

Not sure why people are suddenly surprised.

Link?

Based on current US deployments in Afghanistan, what are the troop to task ratios? What are the force protection requirements?

Only a fraction of the TARP went to financial institutions during this administration.

Link?

They’ve gotten much of it back

Link?

and they are working to get more of it back via the new tax that incentivizes banks to capitalize by lowering the tax when lower leveraging is obtained.

Link?

Has Government Sachs paid back the tax dollars that were laundered to them through AIG?

EXPAND WAR!

Ahh, now I understand progressives you!

solerso, sorry, not every Democrat is an anti-war activist.

Yer killin me, you don’t READ FDL, or the posts it presents, regarding this?

And now you want a repeat?

Killin me, just killin me . . . .

MLK, day off, you getting paid today for this jive ass bullshit?

Sigh.

here it is. its all a political game with no consequence to the real world. sell 35 million people to the insurance companies? gj everyone! take a week off!
expand the war in aghanistan? hell yeah! i even campaigned on this! im 2 for 2! nothing has any human or real time consequent. i had to get over that feeling i was in bizzaro land to get my head around it. for months last summer i was like “this is a clever ruse by obama the master gamesman, hes gonna do the right thing any day now and suprise the hell outta everyone!” or something like that. it aint happnin folks, obama well wishers. what we’re seeing is what we’re getting.

Oh great, now Obama’s a baby killer according to some of you.

no but that was so out in left fireld disconnected from reality, a way to put it i was shocked for a moment.

Damn, I HATE to be wrong . . .

*G*

Didn’t Obama say he was going to bring the troops home in 16 months during his orgy of lies? Or was that a ‘sliver’ of some kind, or maybe it was a ‘plan’ and not an ‘option’. God he really does suck….

Perhaps each state could have a “Guillotine Fund.” A five strand rope controls the fund with the release regulated by the candidates vote. Three votes the wrong way and the funds go to a primary challenger, being hoist by their own petard.

Jane has amassed quite the crowd here.

It would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic watching Democrats turn on each other.

It’s interesting how nobody here is blaming Congress for any of these short comings.

Is it just easier to point @ Obama and join on the bandwagon? I guess so.

Anyways, I’ve gotta wake up early for my DCCC job in the A.M.

Keep up the good work at reminding everyone how Dems destroyed this country.

LIke the Dem Party, it’s hard to support them Dem’s if they don’t talk tough.

Oh shit, I talked publican . . .

KILL them! KILL THEM ALL!

Ok, now I’m better Cujo . . . .

I’m all better now . . . ;-)

Obviously, you think someone from the DLC is reading your stuff.

If we get no public option (the “if” is perfunctory)
whether through reconciliation or otherwise
then yes, ask for it back.

I give my money to EmptyWheel, anyway. It’s a much better value.

Ta ta “Liberal Defender of Freedom” if that is your REAL name!

Your war stance says a lot about you, and not a lot about democrats or progressives.

I agree not all Dems are against MIRC (military industrial complex). Start with those who depend on the Pentagon for their income.

The vast majority of Americans, however, Dem and GOP, understand that exporting tax dollars to twin occupations of foreign countries is a uniquely bad use of scarce taxpayer resources. They also understand that those occupations exponentially increase the likelihood of another attack on US soil.

And that’s pure Obama administration bullshit.

The many different programs bundled under the general heading of TARP, but not referred to as TARP, have been flooding the finance sector with money in order to prop up housing prices etc. And all the administration wants anyone to talk about is the paltry > $1 trillion handed out under the actual name of TARP.

The American taxpayer is still out unknown trillions in cash and still on the hook for at least $22 trillion dollars in losses that the multitude of TARP sub-programs have said they’ll cover when, not if, the current inflated prices collapse.

Your line of bullshit is pure administration spin and brands you like a can of #5 dye.

I love your post! 247 Laughing

MikefromArlington is clearly not here to blog.

Mike loves NAFTA. He believes NAFTA help the AMERICAN worker.

Mike also believes in HCR.

Mike, why do u assume we are dems?

You hear over and over from certain Democratic Reps. the claim that they are for the PO or single payer, but nevertheless need to vote for a bill which has neither for one of two reasons. One is the need for compromise and the other is that any version of a HCR bill needs to be passed for the good of the Democratic party and/or the Obama agenda. Now neither of these two reasons have any merit and should both be rejected out of hand.

Because there is an overwhelming Democratic majority in both Houses there is no need for compromise. Anything over 51% of Democratic votes will be sufficient to pass legislation containg either the PO or single payer. Those Democrats opposed to these provisions are concerned with the interests of private insusrers over that of the public, and these Democrats need not be taken into account.

As to the rationale based on the need to preserve the good of the Democratic party and Obama agenda, well this rationale would be valid only if you cared for either. But most people don’t care for either.

So Democrats are really bereft of any rationale for not including the PO or single payer into HCR legislation. And those Reps. that have comitted to including those provisons ahould continue to do so. And If these provisions are not contaiined then the HCR bill should be voted down.

I saw them a few times in the Bay Area, with and without Dino.

They played at my high school senior year, in ’71.

When they did Gold And Silver, the ONLY time I saw them do it live, it was Duncan who stole it.

I wanna agree with yas, but further listening over the hears tell me it was Duncan doin the licks I liked.

And I am a HUGE fan of John, Gary, David and Elmore.

But over time, and youtubes, Gary Duncan held the best leads . . . John C had good shit . . . but he was NOT the licks that caught my ears . . . *G*

Gold And Silver is to rock what Work Song was to rock . . . .

Either one, an anthem to how to pick and lead and arrange a song ..

That, I will offer up, till I die . . . And I’ll take Butterfield Blues Band, by a nose.

Two of the best anthems of our times . . . . . for a playah . . *G*

Mikey is playing the “you people” card. He is playing “I do not worship at Jane’s feet card”. Jane is kind enough to provide a platform for your corporatist narrative. Mikey you should be more polite and stop insulting her.

But I do get angry Mikey, when you play “Political realities make activists useless” card. Those Dee Cee lobbyists get their “perfect legislation” all the time. They never give up. Why should we give up? Are you a lobbyist?

Some folks like myself realize there are political realities. Not saying activists are useless but to expect perfect legislation every time will get you nowhere.

Let’s not debate the small stuff…..Let’s not worry about the “give the money back” campaign. Why bother? Let’s call it an investment in our “victory”! We’ve won. HCR looks dead! The only thing that I can criticize is that we didn’t have a “contribute to Scott Brown” link from this blog site. Grover Norquist didn’t suggest that? He must be slipping. Oh well. Looks like we’re winning anyway! Let’s move onto better things. Let’s plan for the victory party. Hey, is Grant Park available?….Hershey Park?….Jurassic Park?…

EWE still here?

Why?

Suddenly, you are my hero . . . .

Have I missed your proggieness ?

waaaaaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaaaaaaaaaa. where was all this outrage when we were being betrayed by the people we elected to do the right thing? spencer ackerman has a great post about two prisoners murdered at guantanmo. the black sites continue. the war escalated. obama is a waste of good “hope”.
whats his campaign mantra going to be in 2012? “doh!p”?

im a flaming loony radical.

Your lack of wit is perhaps equal to your lack of comprehension of the goals of progressives at FDL, and is only surpassed by your rudeness.

????

Enough with the personal insults.
Take it outside.

At the time I wrote that the family was discussing the new Holmes movie in the living room and I had a Baskervillian flashback.

It’s NOT a post, it’s a comment . . .

Sigh . . .

Sorry Lurk. Broke my promise to myself. I’ll stop.

I have NO idea as to what you just said . . . none whatsoever . . .

Killin me . . . thanks for being honest . . . .

Yes ask for the money back. I think accountability is the number 1 problem, or lack there of. Democrats are not afraid of us because they don’t think we can hold them accountable. No accountabilty for torture, not representing the people who elected you, etc, etc., When did we stop holding people accountable? We should start a new party. the Accountable Agenda Party Then in history they will say that party was started when there was no accountability for Bush leading us into an illegal wars based on lies, banksters, corporate politicians, insurance thugs, etc.etc.

Yer ABLE to translate that shit spew?

Lemme know when ya get to the final cut.

In the meantime, I don’t KNOW what to think of yas . .. . .

You a Prog, or not?

Thanks. I speak my heart . . . it’s on my sleeve usually . . .

What are you talking about?

I disagree with you, later on . . . as Kelly might say, ‘smoochies’?

I WAS harsh, too . . . .

You familiar with the song Blah, Blah, Blah?

Google that, it’s you, top to bottom . . . still.

*G*

Mook – there’s a fun watertiger thread upstairs a couple a flights. JOIN! NOW!

I guess that calls for progressivism . . .

Nice resume! And thanks for sharing . . .

Hoss or hossette?

Passing EFCA is a huge prog issue in my mind . . . .

You been workin, we miss ya Mookie . . .

We all miss your progs . . . and you got good progs, hoss.

*G*

*Dear Lurk, forgive Larue the Mook. It takes him a while to catch up, bless his heart!*

Yer insane, yer Rovian, yer not . . . . well, yer not bonifide.

You’ve been outed, tell yer handlers, and change your ISP, IP, handle, and anything else it takes to hide your sourcing.

But know, I do hate your kind.

Agree.

Yer either on of us progs, or yer his partner.

Either way, I sure like your comment!!!

Thanks!!!

Wooing me are ya?

Then, at times I have misjudged ya . . . . my bad, hope you’ll understand . . . .

Your #164.

That’s why . . . . I guess I might have got it wrong given the comments that followed.

But your comments are just wierd at times, and not easily understood.

It’s taken a while to catch up here (the last hour in fact). Larue, man, you are poppin’ tonight, absolutely on fire. Good show!

“K.

I was one of the 10% who voted “no”, and I did contribute money to that Act Blue fundraiser. I’m glad that those congresspeople fought to keep the public option alive as long as they did, but as long as there’s a filibuster and Lieberman and Nelson, it was no go. That doesn’t mean that this is the end of the road. I think that they do still owe us, and should keep pushing to get us the public option.

I think that there’s a smarted way, going forward, to get the public option, Medicare buy-in, or both, and that’s to build on what we have. As weak as the bill is, it does accomplish some things that are not achievable with reconciliation: the biggest is forbidding insurance companies to exclude people based on pre-existing conditions. That’s a big one; it might make it possible for me to work as a consultant and have insurance if I lose my corporate job. So, pardon me for being selfish, but for that alone the bad bill beats no bill.

Reconciliation could now be used to improve the bill: the House could separate out the public option provision, put it into a new bill, and then the Senate could pass it with the reconcilation procedure. Remember, Medicare was repeatedly extended. We also need to push the Democrats to end the filibuster; they can do this in January 2011 with only 50 votes (because rules have to be adopted at the start of each session).

If they don’t vote against the bill, send them invoices.

“Your lack of wit is perhaps equal to your lack of comprehension of the goals of progressives at FDL, and is only surpassed by your rudeness”……

Goals of progressives? Funny but I thought that “Progressive” is derived from the root-word: “Progress”…We can debate whether covering an add’l 30 million + Americans with healthcare is “progress”. I would say that it absolutely is. We can also debate whether establishing an alliance with Grover Norquist represents “progress”…I would say that it does not. Either way, I’m not being “rude”. I’m questioning a mindset that similar to the one which kept “Liberals” out of the whitehouse for the greater part of the last 45 years. If “Progressives” insist on returning to the old “liberal” gameplan, be prepared to lose— badly and often.

1. a. When the preconditions regulation kicks in there are vast loopholes for the companies to accuse you of fraud etc and the regulation will be enforced by… no one of consequence.

(State insurance regulators often being captive of the agencies they’re supposed to regulate.)

1. b. When the preconditions regulation kicks in there is absolutely nothing to stop the insurance companies from jacking your rates high enough into the stratosphere to do a cosmic ray survey. Which means that since they can do it they will do it.

2. Having insurance DOES NOT EQUAL access to actual health care… and nothing in the bill does anything to address that little problem.

That’s why the corporations love the bill so much.

Not responding to 251 in particular…just wanted to say your comments are great and you exposed many fraudsters here with wit and candor. Cheers.

You can also debate whether forcing 15 million people to buy junk insurance products while weakening regulation on all such products nationwide is “progress”, though there isn’t as much room for argument for that.

Sounds right to me.

Fool me once, shame on you;
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Let keep the first round.
Second round of donations goes to the real progressives.

KILL them! KILL THEM ALL!

That is talking “publican”. I’ll settle for fear of unemployment. ;)

Note to NSA – we’re only kidding here.

then why didn’t the house substitute it’s own bill? i don’t have any explanation other than the house didn’t intend to press forward with their own bill. that makes it a clue as to what can be expected from the house. would love to have another explanation if you have one to share.

Yes of course they should give back the money; just like Nigerian email scammers should give back money when they fail to live up to their promises.

But there is a better way to deal with this in the future: next time, promise to send them the money AFTER they vote the correct way. That way it will be you who have the option of honouring your promise — or not. The sad truth is, and I’m being generous here, 98% of Democrats are corporatist scum. You will most certainly get a better return on investment on any funds sent to the Nigerians than you will from the scamming Corporocrats who happen to have a “D” next to their name.

I have strenuously disagreed with selise numerous times over tactics (and the tone, substance, and volume of her criticisms of Jane), but her credentials as a liberal and a progressive are solid. She worked for Ned in CT and she has frequently been a tireless worker here at FDL. The work she did on FISA was magnificent. She has also done a lot to educate a lot of us about single payer. selise brings links, spread sheets, and the nuts and bolts work product that feed policy development. She also actually reads the bills.

* 1 pound unsalted butter
* 1 pound plus 12 ounces semisweet chocolate chips, divided
* 6 ounces unsweetened chocolate
* 6 extra-large eggs
* 3 tablespoons instant coffee powder
* 2 tablespoons real vanilla extract
* 2 1/4 cups sugar
* 1 1/4 cups all-purpose flour, divided (1 cup for batter and 1/4 cup in the chips and nuts)
* 1 tablespoon baking powder
* 1 teaspoon kosher salt
* 3 cups diced walnut pieces

Or the money goes into an ad campaign about the broken pledge rather than just sent back to each contributor

I just saw this post this morning, hence jumping in late, but I’ve been interested in the general theme of the post for a while now. I think there is a broader question when it comes to holding our representatives accountable for the labor we as progressive volunteers provide them.

I wrote a blog post titled Empowering Volunteers Through Data Portability late last year about the notion of data ownership which I believe is at the core of this question.

In this particular instance, I think ActBlue provides the tools to implement the kind of action I’ve been envisioning. Assuming the funds were raise through a page controlled by someone who’s on board with going after those who lied, ActBlue provides them the ability to get all the info on those who donated. At the very least, I’d say those who donated deserve to know about the bait and switch if it were to happen.

The new world of data driven campaigns can do some amazing things for accountability if we can figure out the right way to use it.

Why not attach the strings in the first place.

You offer the money, with the clear stipulation that, if the pledge is violated for any reason, the money needs to be returned.

Since money drives everything in politics, this at least would have a chance of having some impact.

Please get over yourself. Anyone who thinks that the Senate incarnation of this alleged health care reform (the version being shoved down our throats) is a good thing for the Democrats has rocks in their head.

This bill, while holding off any benefits for 3 years (a very bright way to lose elections), will delived 10s of millions of Americans into the arms of the insurance companies. Add to that, nothing to contain costs and a tax that is meant to get people that already have insurance to be a part of programs that will deliver them less. Progressives hate it…unions hate it…independents hate it. And justifiably so.

Passing the Senate version of ths bill will guarantee that the Dems become a minority party. If we were going to go down, it would have been nice to have gone down espousing the principles that the party campaigned on in 2008.

This bill is a total sellout and gift to corporate interests.

In other words, you really need to shut the f*** up. How dare you come on here and rip into us for not drinking your pathetic Kool-aid.

we’re only kidding here

you sound as if you think they’re actual, honest-to-gosh hooomin beans.