If Martha Coakley loses the special election for the Massachusetts Senate seat, the big question in Washington is what would happen to health care. It is clear the White House is pushing for the House to pass the Senate bill as is.
For the moment, at least, the preferred Plan B would be to try to persuade House Democrats to approve the health care bill that the Senate adopted on Christmas Eve, obviating the need for an additional Senate vote and sending the measure directly to President Obama for his signature, administration officials and Congressional aides said on Sunday.
This should surprise no one. The Obama has made it clear all along that he favored the Senate bill. The big question is: can they force the Senate bill through the House? Such a move would face some very angry progressives, representatives in labor heavy states who don’t want the excise tax, and a small group of conservative Democrats in the House who might bolt at the bill’s lack of Stupak’s anti-choice amendment. Getting the House to swallow the Senate bill whole would be an extreme uphill battle.
One of the other options is to jam the compromise bill through the Senate before Republican Scott Brown is seated. I don’t know if this would even be technically possible, and I doubt you could get all 60 Democratic votes for that move, anyway.
The last option is to use reconciliation, which can’t be filibustered. As Chris Van Hollen said, “reconciliation is an option.” They could use reconciliation to pass a new, redesigned health care bill, or they can pass the Senate bill and a reconciliation measure right after to fix the Senate bill.
Using reconciliation to pass a new bill would require a rewriting of the bill so it only deals with budgetary matters. This would probably mean a strong employer mandate, a Medicare buy-in/public option, and a large expansion of Medicaid/SCHIP as the primary ways to expand coverage. Going this route could help make the Stupak abortion language issue moot since Medicaid, Medicare, and SCHIP are already under the existing anti-abortion Hyde amendment.
Passing the Senate bill first, and then fixing it with reconciliation, could also create strong political and policy pressure for reviving the public option or Medicare buy-in. Probably the only way they could jam the Senate bill “as is” through the House would be to get labor on board. To get labor, you need to promise to fix the excise tax, and probably the only way to do that is by using reconciliation. The unions agreed to a “fix” of the excise tax that would cost $60 billion. That money needs to be recouped through other tax increases or cost-cutting measures. Even a weak, “level playing field” public option would save $25 billion, and increasing Medicaid from 133% to 150% FPL should save another several billion.
If Coakley loses in Massachusetts, I don’t see how health care reform passes without reviving reconciliation, and, by default, the public option. The evidence indicates that Nancy Pelosi could not find the votes to pass the Senate bill as is. It would seem her only option is to promise to seriously fix the bill right away with reconciliation, or pass a completely redesigned bill using reconciliation. Either way, I don’t see how health care reform could move forward without using reconciliation in some manner.




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As I understand it- the insurance reform provisions of the bill would not survive reconciliation- including the prohibition against the exclusion of pre-existing conditions, community rating, etc.
The dems would need to do a thorough analysis of what could stand and what would have to go- and then decide if what’s left is worth the fight- or whether other parts could be passed stand alone against filibuster threats. Seems like a fairly detailed and tricky analysis. Has anyone done it yet?
Obama can take action today to win the Massachusetts Senate election.
http://www.beavercountyblue.org
Well in the Senate bill there is no enforcement mechanism for the new regulation so currently they are without value.
Jon, It SHOULD be Reconcilliation. The ONLY reason Obama & team demanded HCR have 60 votes is, they couldn’t have stopped “real” HCR reform from winning 51 votes. But, what about your other idea, injecting HCR legislation, piece by piece, in other Bills? I’d start with Dorgan’s Amendment & dare Dems to oppose it! Next, I’d demand we get Corporations out of the HealthCare Business. EVERYONE knows Corporations shouldn’t be in HealthCare, so why not make it a pivotal issue for Dems.?
I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying, but I believe the nuclear option should be used.
That was only an example- the question is whether anyone to your knowledge has done a compehensive analysis of what could and could not be included in a budget reconciliation bill.
Wrong conclusion, I think. They will revive reconciliation to pass the big gifts and giveaways to the insurance and pharmaceutical industries, yes. But I don’t see why you think that they would revive reconciliation to bring back a public option.
If you have evidence for this assertion (that Senate Democrats and the White House will revive reconciliation in order to bring back a public option), GREAT!
If not, if it’s just the speculation that it appears to be in this post, I think you’ll be mighty disappointed.
How’s this for evidence? The House bill. There’s too many of you people who think just because Lieberman’s against something, the rest of the caucus immediately loses interest. You’re wrong.
Unless there is a real public option in anything they do through reconciliation, the only purpose it will serve is to show the republicans that they WILL do it. But why do it for the Trojan Horse abomination that they couldn’t pass with 60 instead of 59?
Makes no sense, EXCEPT! That we will then be treated to how courageous are Obama and the dems to beard the deadly republicans for the same thing that they brought over from the OTHER jellyfish herd; the ones in the Senate.
In response to mikesong @ 8
Excuse me, but if the White House or the majority of Senate Democrats who mouthed their support and/or love for a public option had wanted it, they could have whipped out reconciliation at any time. Coakley winning or losing tomorrow is irrelevant to that fact.
They wouldn’t use reconciliation to pass a public option before. I’ve seen no reason to think they will after.
Spread the word about reconciliation.
There will likely be an effort to trivialize it, like on CNN this morning.
believe one of Kagro’s wonkier commenters did that – will look around for the link
We act like any of these bought fucks give a toss about doing what’s right for their fellow humans.
medicinecat made a good point on another thread.
If this Senate bill ever looks like it’s in real trouble, a Rebublican will likely be assigned the task of casting the 60th vote.
Republicans love big business, after all.
Maybe a retiring Republican can be pressured into biting the bullet.
Just like Bernie was pressured into biting the bullet.
No mandates, no Stupak, expansion of Medicare…?
Defeat Coakley, kill the bill, – why is Jane not on board?
Pass a new bill.
No mandate, Medicare available to anyone that wants it and help pay for it with a tax on Wall Street financial transactions.
Wrong. Reconciliation has always been the backup plan and will continue to be until the bill is passed. Harry Reid almost used reconciliation on Dec. 13 when Lieberman double-crossed him. Then Rahm walked over and nixed that plan, thereby culminating the epic sellout of the Obama presidency. But that defeat only holds if they can get 60 people and 218 people to agree to something, which they haven’t yet. The minute it becomes clear that they won’t get the votes, for instance if Coakley loses, they’ll go straight to reconciliation. And as Jon Walker explains above, that means the public option stands a good chance.
I agree with all that, and it’s the best case scenario, imo. However, you write, “Obama has made it clear all along that he favored the Senate bill.”, I think it might be more correct to say, “Obama has pretended all along that he was in no way involved in the Senate bill.”
Just sayin’.
Certainly, if Coakley loses, it will be tougher to do anything on healthcare. If, 14 months after a democratic landslide, they can’t hold onto the safest seat in the country; in the safest state in the country, Obama and the dems are going to look and smell like a week-old roadkill possum in August.
At this point, I think that’s what it will take to get them to sit down and ask the simple question: “What are we doing wrong?”
I wonder how many people on here think that’s a bad idea?
I’m not even going to put up the link again, but Coakley is squarely in bed with some of our worst and most powerful enemies in the health insurance industry and in Big Pharma.
There is a bottom line to all this, and it transcends considerations of parliamentary procedures:
If coakley is elected, no matter how razor thin it may be, Obama and the democrats will put the best face on it and pretend that it was more or less expected, a bit of hard luck, and they will continue down their merry “centrist” path.
If she loses, they will HAVE to do some serious soul-searching about the political dangers of trying to make common cause with people who wouldn’t pee on them if they were on fire, as they turn their backs on their most loyal supporters.
THEN, if they want to go the reconciliation route, they could make something of a fresh start, and put in a strong public option and take it from there. As it stands now, if they put up a bill advocating motherhood and apple pie, and go to reconciliation, the republicans are going to squeal like stuck hogs, anyway. Might as well do the right thing…………………………………………………………………………………………………………….finally.
Mikesong@17:
“That means the public option stands a good chance.”
Well, at least we’re getting down to some hard predictions. Resolution…it’s what’s for dinner. :o)
Sharkbabe@13: I feel that way, too, but we might just have ‘em by the shorthair with this election. :o) If Coakley loses, it will be a defeat of historical proportions.
Obama and the dems have purely sucked as frontrunners, let’s see how good they are at playing from behind.
What have we got to lose?
That is, if anyone knows of some good, progressive, bills about to go into the hopper, on which we would need that 60th vote to pass them, please tell us, but after this past year, and those noble campaign speeches, you’ll need to put up some links, or something.
Sanders or one of the other progressives should have refused to vote for the bill if it didn’t contain the public option. There were no consequences for LIEberman and Nelson for blackmail. Then Obama would have had to compromise to get their votes.
Let me make this simple for you.
The HOUSE either changes the Senate Bill, or rejects it, that’s what I’m reading, Pelosi does NOT have the votes to baby kiss the Senate Bill as is . . . the House will be adding in the public option one way or another (prog caucas and others I bet), losing Eshoo I hope, in the process . . . maybe Stupak, as the Hyde Amendment is still in full force. If the House doesn’t pass the present bill, and doesn’t pass revisions, the process is stalled.
NOW, the Senate can either NOT pass for the House Revisions, and stall the process (I’m fine with that, force them to either revise the shit they proposed or start over) and pay for it as Rahm begins to mess with the dem’s who didn’t vote it thru for signing.
Or, the Senate dicker and dawdle till they find votes, or, they can go reconciliation JUST TO GET SOMETHING PASSED!
So, that’s how the public option is LIKELY to come back into play.
Question is, will Rahm and Obama cave to the House Progs and revisions to include a robust PO, or will they lean heavily on the House Progs even more . . . if they lean any more heavier, the progs will have a FIELD day with the media to embarass both Rahm and Obama . . . and it will STALL the bill! Obama wants to sign something by State Of The Union . . . let’s see just how desperate he is to do so . . . will he back off some of his corp sellout to do so?
This is playing out in a very interesting manner . . . . the longer it goes, the more pressure on Obama to change/revise and accept some proggy love . . . and push the Senate to love that proggy love and reconciliation a House final package with a PO, and maybe even anti trust, FAST!
There is another option. Jettison Lieberman and the DINOs in the Senate and force them to actually filibuster. I don’t understand why this option is never even discussed. Can you imagine Lieberman and Nelson and Snowe et al. standing up to read from the bible or the want ads or the classifieds? They’d get run so fast it’d make your head spin, aside from the fact that their prostates would explode after about 48 hours. I actually hope Coakley loses so this is the only remaining option, because there’s no way the House passes the Senate bill as is.
did some digging over at Kagro’s place – couldn’t find the commenter post I was looking for (prolly in the Big Orange server) but did find a post from Kagro about resurrecting reconciliation – yep,
clear as mud
did you know the Byrd Rule could be waved ?
that the Parliamentarian holds all kinds of cards ?
dive in
don’t worry – they will have to improve the bill, because the immovable wall of Progressive Democrats Took the Pledge to vote against any bill without something called a ‘Public Option’ in it, right?
how much money was raised and given to those pols again?
oh wait, they are casually reneging on that Pledge – because they know the Axiom of Irrevocable Support for the Least Worst is still the party line in the (D) captured Netroots.
uh oh – pitched battle in the comments, 850 posts long!
perhaps the thaw is coming, the solid-ice is cracking, and soon the water can flow free again.
so, therefore, yell at the water!
good luck with that, (D) apologists.
That is an understatement if there ever was one. Massachusetts was the only state out of 50 to vote for the Democratic presidential candidate in ’72.
Hate to break it to you. If Coakley looses, HCR is gone. So is any of the other progressive agenda– like bank regulation, climate change bill.
Unless I’m reading this wrong, Wiki shows that if the nuke is used, then filibusters are henceforth considered unconstitutional, I don’t think ANY Senator would want to lose the filibuster rights.
Do You?
Hey Tan! Wassup!
Not sure I understand your second paragraph . . . could you ‘splain it a bit more?
Maybe, but the smoke is STILL billowing,Spork.
Have you seen this?
Tobacco’s Big 4 Negotiating with Justice Dept. to Avoid Supreme … – 6 hours ago
Although the four big tobacco firms, which control 90% of US cigarette market, … effort as part of any out-of-court settlement reached with the government.
AllGov
Big Tobacco tries to avoid trip to Supreme Court – Salt Lake TribuneJan 16, 2010 … Washington » Tobacco industry lawyers met secretly with Solicitor General Elena Kagan in an effort to avoid the government s last-ditch …
http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_14209110 – Cached
Big Tobacco makes secret plea to avoid payout – Addictions- msnbc.comJan 16, 2010 … Big Tobacco makes secret plea to avoid payout. Industry wants to keep Supreme Court out of racketeering lawsuit …
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34894780/ns/health-addictions/ – Cached
Right now the ball is in the House’s hands . . . until we see what comes out of that chamber, all is moot.
I don’t see a Republican coming forth to support a House revised final package that has a PO, loses or loosens the abortion language, brings back the anti trust enforcement, and maybe even loses Eshoo’s piece of gifting to PhARMA.
So, we wait, and wonder what the House will finish with while the clock’s ticking to the SOTU Address, which is making Rahm and Obama REAL nervous . . . . and I perceive that to be a GOOD thing.
Attackerman has a new post upstairs
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Jon Walker and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“If Coakley Loses, Reconcilliation Must Be Revived.”
I always look forward to your posts Citizen Walker and you are one of the most credible blog-journalists in the blogosphere but there is only one proper response to your headline: “Bullshit!!”
The bill that could be patched together for reconcilliation would bring immense suffering and loss to the American people and kill the immediate future of the Democratic Party nationally as well as increasing the coffers of the corporate oligarchy to purchase even more reactionary Blue Dogs. But if the progressive Democrats in the House of Representatives hold fast and kill this monster, the only people who suffer will be ObamaRahma and the corporatists who won’t be able to hold back the tide of anger from the mass of people either in November of 2010 or 2012. There is a change comin’ in the political understanding of the mass of folks in this country and as the economy falters and more and more people go broke because of the costs of health insurance and illness, there will be no place to hide for those who have been livin’ off the sweat of the American people for the last 65 years.
There is a point at which the concentration of wealth smothers the political power it can buy…this is called history and it’s right here folks.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, IT’S THE WAR AND NOT THE BATTLE THAT WE HAFTA WIN!!
I don’t see the need to eliminate the filibuster; why not just make them actually filibuster, instead of just writing a letter?
1) Mz. Hamsher being on board or NOT being on board is NOT going to aid or defeat Coakley, IMHO.
2) And Coakley’s losing or winning has little impact on what the Senate will do, based on what the HOUSE is going to do, and that’s not final yet, so we don’t KNOW what’s gonna happen in the Senate!
3) We DO know, they don’t need 60, they only need 51 . . . they could use the nuke, too . . . but until we see what they get from the House? Rampant daydreams . . . .
and if Coakley loses watch the WH move even further to the right under the watchful eye of Rahm. Then in 2010 watch Republicans regain both houses of Congress. The Democratic party may well have to be destroyed to save it.
Citizen RonD:
BINGO…you get another gold star for your Norske Medal of Citizenship, Brother Ron. The fillibuster can be crushed unless Democrats triangulate themselves right outta the game.
Now THAT’S progressive thinking . . . . but sadly, we all know it’s a dream as big as getting private insurance out of the healthcare game . . . . but yes, we SHOULD have big dreams . . . and fight for what we can get, in the meantime.
MLK had big dreams. Obamarahma merely daydream.
MS, let me get some clarification of this point . . . reconciliation is for the Senate only, right?
And at present, the Senate can’t do ANYTHING, until the House acts in some manner.
If The House brings in the PO, takes out Stupak, maybe Eshoo, brings back anti trust, etc., what do you think the Senate will do?
BTW, always appreciate your thoughtful comments . . . .
“. If Coakley looses, HCR is gone. So is any of the other progressive agenda– like bank regulation, climate change bill.”
You are kidding, right?
Rather, let me put it this way. Are you a DLC corporatist type of Democrat?
If you are, you can expect good things from this Administration on regulation (next to none), and enforcement (Shapiro at SEC).
Climate Change – what’s your preference there, Cap and Trade, nuclear reactors, off-shore drilling and some green shit?
Citizen Bluetoe2:
If, as I think is highly unlikely, the Democrats lose BOTH houses of congress it will be the best thing that could ever happen to the Democratic Party in that it will insure that ObamaRahma will not survive 2012 because there will be nuthin with which ObamaRhama can triangulate …do ya think that the fascist, lunatic Republicans are gunna “compromise” with Obama and give him any political wins??!! Of course not…Obama is dead, politically, if the Democrats lose control of Congress but the Democratic Party will be much more progressive and give the American people a real political choice goin down the road.
“If, 14 months after a democratic landslide, they can’t hold onto the safest seat in the country; in the safest state in the country, Obama and the dems are going to look and smell like a week-old roadkill possum in August.”
THAT’S a keeper, hoss!! *G*
My only add on to your whole comment is that right now Coakley don’t matter, until we find out what the House passes.
If they pass shit, Senate will get an easy 60 votes one way or another, as long as it best represents the best interest of the corporate lords who pay the senators for their campaigns.
If the House passes ANY modicum of real reform (PO, elim recissions, pre existings, reimposes anti trust, regulates premium costs, etc), then the Senate is gonna in a VERY interesting spot, with the public, and with the WH, and with their corporate overlords.
And then, my friend, we’ll see what REAL pressure is on them fucks. They, and Obama, are REALLY getting into a tight spot between passing what the corps want, and passing something that can be signed before the SOTU address.
I’m thoroughly enjoying this! They have to be fucking squirming in their seats!
I pray, and you KNOW how I feel about that prayer stuff, the House DOES revise the shit package for progressive ideals (PO, yadda yadda) because it’s gonna on HELL of a problem for Obama and the Senate!
Sweet!
Chuck Todd MSNBC the white house spoke person is either stupid or trying his best to deceive real progressives.
Hello, Chuck Todd, Obama is losing his base. The base of the Dem party is progressives. ConserverDems like Obama are like dinosaurs.
Chuck Todd, losing independents and the so call middle in MASS, does not matter. Mass is a DARK BLUE state. If the progressive show up to vote in MASS Coakley will win period. If they don’t she will lose. Independents don’t matter in Mass, just like they don’t matter in South Carolina.
Obama is going to learn quickly, there is no MIDDLE, and you have better do what your BASE wants done.
Chuck Todd is a DLC hack.
Chuck Todd and other conserverdems hate the FACT that the base of the DEM party is progressive.
Progressives need to organize and only support real progressive candidates.
Who cares if Coakley loses? Why should progressives care about a ConserverDem like Coakley? Why?
The big secret in the USA is that the majority of the USA is now progressive.
ALL the polls show americans supporting progressive ideas.
Public Option
Less War, etc.
Heck. Revive it anyway.
Why can’t the House call Obama’s bluff and demand that the Senate agree to the House bill?
Dream? That should have been the left’s begrudging compromise, not its starting position!
Ghostof911@27: Yep. And coming in Massachusetts, no one will be able to spin it as Coakley and the prez being “too librul”. The truth will be that a lot of democrative voters and some independents were pissed enough to want to give Obama and the dems one HELL of a wake-up call, and smart enough to know just how to do it.
AnnOnymous@28: “If Coakley loses HCR is gone.” Could be. If so, it couldn’t happen to a nicer lots-of-mandates-and-no-public-option trojan horse. Sucker should have been killed in it’s Senate crib.
RE: Bank regulation. He’s had a year to put a leash on them, and all he’s done is make sure that a lot of CEO’s and board members won’t have to make do with last year’s Hatteras 53.
Climate Change bill: Weren’t you keeping up when Obama and the rest of the industialized world went to Denmark and left something rotten there?
I mean, if you know about some extra-good progressive legislation that Obama is really, really, going to drop into the congressional hopper (after a year of snoozing under the porch like some old hound…) please let me know, but given all that has happened (or not happened, to be more accurate) I would appreciate a few links to the information.
Larue! I am loving the smell of presidential and democratic “leadership” flopsweat! :o) You?
If it gets strong enough it might even drive them to do something radical, like wash off the “centrist” slime.
It’s music to my nostrils.
Go with the 51 vote thing but not this plan do what Bush did with tax cuts pass a single payer system that has to be renewed in 10 years and see who has the balls then not to renew it.
Obama is a tool of the elites use to hurt the progressive movement.
Obama and Rahm are enemies of the progressive movement period.
Progressives must study the Art of War!
All war is base on deception.
Obama is doing the bidding of the corp elites.
Obama job was to hijack the Progressive Movement of 2008 and destroy it.
Look at how GOP leaders are trying to hijack the tea party movement.
Corporations like the idea, of govt for corporations by corporations.
1) What does jettison mean in this case
2) Lieberman and the blue dogs are corporate serfs, they are IN commonality with Obama on that one, fully!
3) Who decides to jettison Lieberman and the blue dogs? Reid? See corporate serf . . .
I love the idea, but I think you’ve misidentified who’s on who’s side and what they are all fighting for, they are ALL fighting for what best benefits the corporate structure . . . as such, outside of the House Progs, there ARE no people in Congress who really object to Lieberman or the bluedogs . . . it’s all kabuki about being pissed at Lieberman, they serve the same masters, they all get paid by the corps to get elected and re-elected.
Don’t fall for false memes . . . that’s my point, I guess . . . . bright shiny stuff is to distract. Stick with the fact that most if not all, and Obama/Rahm, are in service to the corporate feudalists . . . bought and paid for, fully.
Once you accept that fact, the analysis changes completely . . . .
Hmmm . . . I don’t get it, but I’ll read your linky, maybe the answer is in there ..
The Byrd Rule is used to strip amendments from bills during RECONCILIATION! It’s one way the Senate could easily and handily wipe out any House progressive revisions . . .
Can any sharper Pups PLEASE tell me I have this wrong? That Byrd is NOT the means by which Obama and Senate can get the worst corporate piece of shit passed and signed?
The idea that losing the safest democratic Senate seat, in the safest democratic state in america, will make Obama and the dems move to the right is preposterous.
What’s happening is Massachusetts is already a huge knee to the groin to Rahm Emmanuel If Coakley does lose (and I still have my doubts) it might even be enough for a quiet firestorm to crank up in congress, for Obama to throw Mr. Machiavelli under the bus. Put it like this: if they lose that seat one year after the landslide, with all of it’s promise, some heads will roll. That’s how it works, I believe. If she loses and Obama goes into the mid-terms with “team-centrist” still intact, you’ll be able to count his job-approval ratings by taking off one shoe.
Hi-ya. The House and Senate have both passed bills, at this point they have the same standing (although politically, the Senate has the upper hand.) Tomorrow the House could pass the Senate bill and be done without it. Tomorrow the Senate could pass the House bill with reconciliation and be done with it. Although of course reconciliation will take much longer than that. Anyway, neither of those options will happen because if they could have they already would have. The end result will be the product of bicameral negotiation, even if passed through the senate by reconcilation. Sorry, I don’t think they can just jettison Stupak and pass the House – again, if they could have they already would have. There will have to be some compromise language.
Hate to break it to you, but if anything of a progressive nature had been passed in the past 12 months she wouldn’t be dealing with this perfect storm.
Voters are disillusioned specifically because nothing has changed and the only remedy they think they have is to vote against this…..they are sending a message( this is anecdotal but it is being said to me); people can despair and say “Oh no” but the frustration level is that politicians do not listen.
They listen to money and defeat.
This time defeat is the message.
Hmm, good read, as always from Waldman . . . even though it’s from Nov 25 and things have changed since then.
He’s saying for the most part the PO might fly if the CBO scores it cost wise in a positive manner . . . I have to say a good PO would be a real saver money wise, BECAUSE of expanded coverage . . .
Well, until we see what the House does, huh . . . thanks for that link/read!
I’m not sure what your point(s) is in your comment . . . wanna clarify some of that snark speak?
But we KNOW Pelosi don’t have the votes to pass the Senate Bill as is, so far.
So SOMEONE is holding out, and I doubt if it’s the republicans!!!!
Till we KNOW what the House passes, we don’t know shit.
well another thing I can agree with, defeat Coakley, GO BROWN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SMbcm6RKBs
Um, yes, it likely will implications for the WH and Dem’s in ’10 and ’12. And and for now, as they panic about their losses . . . .
Coakley losing will not so much impact HCR I don’t think . . . other than to wreck Rahm/Obama’s plans for a simple pass on the existing Senate Bill Piece Of Shit. And that’s not a BAD thing, so they feel more prog pressure.
Jon, why aren’t you invited on Olbermann, Maddow, Ratigan, Shuster, Shultz, Matthews, others to promote these views?
Brown MUST Win To Save Health Care!
The present health care agreement is garbage and everyone knows it. There is ONLY one viable alternative from a Progessive’s point of view. If Scott Brown wins, Congress needs to pass a new reconciliation bill, reflecting a more liberal agreement.
MSNBC needs to get the message out to the people and start pushing this new reconciliation bill agenda.
(Note to Ed Shultz – you collapsed on Afghanistan. you can redeem yourself by pushing hard for a new reconciliation bill in health care).
Note to Jane and Arianna- help!
Wanna elaborate, provide sourcing, back that up somehow?
I loved Blind Faith, but they broke up, too . . . .
I disagree with ya on this, hoss . . . if the House revises or adds in PO, end to pre exist/recission, ect than the Senate will be faced with great complexity . . . and pressure, as will Obama/Rama.
Only questions are, what will reconciliation (assume no 60 votes for House mods) and Byrd Rule PRODUCE out of the Senate?
I don’t think you can stand by your rant given we have NO clue what the Senate will do with recon and Byrd.
But I obviously fully agree with ya on the nation’s pulse quickening as rapidly as the knitting needles of Madame DeFarge and her front row cohorts!!! *G*
Right, the Democrats are just messing up by mistake, because they are ill-informed, and if they’d just listen to us, then everything would be okay.
[violence against (cartoon) women warning. its lucy van pelt, perhaps standing in for martha coakley]
http://www.hulu.com/watch/105846/family-guy-brians-got-a-brand-new-bag?c=212:243
Because that’s not what Obama or Rahm or Reid want or are striving for!
They want passage of the INTACT Senate bill, without House mods or changes!
I tell ya, the pressure has to be incredibly intense in Congress and on The Hill and in the WH as that SOTU address looms ever closer by every tick of the clock . . . if HCR is not done by then, we have a new ballgame, and as Norske so eloquently said, an increasingly pissed off public mass of humans who are gonna ‘splode sooner than later at ALL of it . . . and that explosion starts in ’10, and the dem’s KNOW it. Yet even MORE pressure on them!!!
I’m loving it!!!!
This is best joke I heard all day!
You think the current HCR bill is progressive? WOW!
Tell your conserverdem friends, like the dinosaur they soon will die!
Ask Coakley, the day of the conserverdem is OVER.
Progressive must first organize and make sure we support an elect real progressives.
No more Hope A Dope!
BT, the way it looks to me, is that the WH and Rahm don’t CARE about the party, and the party don’t care about the party, they all serve the corps.
Any one of them who loses a seat or position, simply retreats back into the realm and coffers of the corporate world as lobbyists . . . that’s the ONLY explanation I’ve been able to come up with given all the giveaways despite the campaign promises . . .
The Dem’s don’t really care about the WH or the majority’s, other than they get a bigger cut of the pie if in office. If they are voted out, they get more pie!!!! Win/win for them. And while IN office, they do the corp bidding.
They don’t CARE about winning elections!!! It’s a false meme!
I think I can cut to the chase here: Whatever side you’re on, there are two overriding facts about our country just now.
We. Want. Some. Resolution.
As Norman Mailer said, decades ago, when he ran for Mayor of New York on the best campaign slogan ever, in Amurka: “No more bullshit!”
He lost, but WTF; still great words, and, after 8 years of Bush and the GOP’s bullshit, capped off with Obama’s first year of really, quite a lot of the same (in lieu of real change) they are relevant today. Just how relevant is about to be decided in Massachusetts, but, you can bet the ranch, relevant.
The other one is this: Americans do not like weak presidents. As preznint, you can be fucking up a can of peaches (as George Bush unspinnably did) but you better look forceful while you’re doing it.
and to the repub non-compis-mentis, he did that, too.
Barak Obama is very close to channelling Jimmy Carter as we speak. O. needs to find his political killer instinct. (I know, Carter’s still with us, but still…) If Coakley goes down, Obama is going to have to do a backbone check that won’t whoa. So is the rest of the democratic leadership. It should be something so cathartic that if he’s honest,he will look shaken, chastened, and temporarily, scared shitless. If he does that, I think the voters will give him onnnne more shot at taking on the interests that have dragged us to the brink, but he’d better not fuck around with it. Sending Rahm Emmanuel home to spend more time with his family should be an immediate priority…as should mustering up the troops in the House and Senate and telling them that the next ten months are going to be like Hamburger Hill, or the Battle of The Bulge, or something along those “not one step back!” lines. And he better not look scared, for too long….
If he tries to continue to snuggle with the assholes, instead of beleatedly cranking up the salvage operation for their fuckups and daring them to interfere, we will get obliterated next November.
It’s cusp time, folks. No butter on the popcorn, please.
Yay! I’m not the only one to say that in one sentence. I feel better now.
I’d love it if some of the folks who seem to think this bill is better than nothing would explain how that sentence isn’t true. They often go on about those restrictions as though they mean something.
Sure, that’s why it IS a dream! Like Single Payer!
Only happen if we the people hit the streets, demonstrate, force boycotts, work stoppages.
And we the people show no inclination yet, of doing so.
Let’s revisit that question Wednesday.
I’d love it if that were true, but the reality is that they have the money and the power, and they’re not going anywhere for a while. I think the trick to dealing with them is to convince them that we aren’t, either, and that we matter.
Defeating Coakley would be a step along that path, but only a step.
“Larue! I am loving the smell of presidential and democratic “leadership” flopsweat! :o) You? If it gets strong enough it might even drive them to do something radical, like wash off the “centrist” slime. It’s music to my nostrils.”
Yep, enjoying it all . . . Freddie Mercury And David Bowie Sing Of My Enjoyment!
*G*
Who in the WH or in either Chamber of Congress besides a handful of House Progs will enable this fantasy?
The Democrats are not fucking up, this is intentional, just like NAFTA.
Add this one to the earlier list of “WTF ?” statements :
“I don’t know why some segments of political observers don’t seem to be as motivated. There’s a lot at stake. There’s a lot at stake in the election in Massachusetts; there’s a lot at stake in what’s debated every day on Capitol Hill. What’s at stake is whether we’re going to go forward with ideas for an economic recovery,’’ -White House press secretary Robert Gibbs.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/01/17/d… /
He doesn’t understand WHY SOME segments are NOT motivated??? I don’t understand why gibbs is the mouthpiece to begin with.
Ding Ding!!!
*bows*
Obama and Rahm know if Coakley loses.
It will tell other dems, that OBAMA is weak and has no more power.
The secret that the WHite House hates is that the PROGRESSIVE BASE can organize and destroy Conserver Dems any time they want.
Ben Nelson, Blanche Lincoln political careers are over, because without the Progressive Base of the Dem party they can’t win.
If a Dem loses in Mass, this tells every DEM in the USA, if you take for granted the Progessive Base of the Dem Party, like Obama and Rahm do, you may lose and lose big.
The white house wants Chuck Todd, and other MSM fronts to talk about Independents having the power to control elections, no one wants to deal with the truth, Progressives Control Elections. Mass is a dark blue state, just like South Carolina is a dark red state, the only way a Dem loses in Mass is that the Progressive Base of the Dem party stays home.
Coakley is a ConserverDem, a real progressive would have won Mass easily remember Ted Kennedy.
Ted Kennedy, would not vote for this HCR bill, and all real progressives know this, especially the ones in Mass.
Dems take Progressives for granted, and your political career will end quickly.
Progressives must organize and support real progressives
I’ll try to recap the points I understand. A filibuster works to the benefit of the minority. It requires that a quorum, or better yet enough majority Senators to invoke cloture, be available at all times. Don’t forget, filibusters have to be broken by 60% of all Senators. If it weren’t, they’d be a lot easier to break.
This requires that majority (Democratic, in our current case) Senators be available to vote at any time. They can’t go home, can’t stray too far from the Capitol while fundraising, etc. It’s a pain, and when you consider how much of their time Senators spend fundraising, that’s another advantage to the minority party. They don’t have to be there. Other than the filibusterer and a few guys to hold his coat, they don’t need to be around.
That’s why the idea of letting them is unpopular, I think. I agree they should make them do it anyway, just as a demonstration of what’s going on, but until now they didn’t have to in order to get something done. Based on the last session of Congress, I don’t think it will happen real soon even if they lose Senator 60 tomorrow.
I suspect he doesn’t know how frightened we are of what ideas they’ll come up with next for economic recovery.
Uh, my understanding is the House was handed the Senate Bill, and they have to either sign off on it, modify it, reject it, or submit a new bill . . .
THEN the Senate gets to decide what THEY do before there’s a bill for Obama to sign.
THAT’S what I’m talking about . . . The House HAS a bill, one they passed, but it’s not the bill the Senate gave them to approve!!!
Given the pressure from the public, pressure from the SOTU deadline . . . I believe House Progs CAN and will, significantly revise the Senate Bill, to put the pressure back on THEM to fail to get it done before SOTU address.
The needs of care reform for the masses, demanded by the masses, is soon going to dominate any desires to fuck with social issues like abortion . . . but as I’ve worried above, can the Senate use Byrd Rule and eliminate any changes the House comes up with?
We’ll see! The longer it drags on, the better our chances for a more progressive piece of legislation! Because pressure is NOT going to decrease!!! Not at all!! The people are pissed, unemployed, broke and worse!
THAT pressure is gonna force some change, one way or another . . the longer this drags on, the more pressure from the masses will be felt, at the ballot box, FOR SURE!
And all the players know this . . . . all of them. *G*
51 votes in the Senate can represent less than half of the population, so at times it makes sense to require a supermajority to finalize business as a protection to the majority from the tyranny of the minority.
I’d like to see business move forward if votes of Senators representing a majority of Americans in the Senate agree, rather than a simple majority of Senators, which can often represent a minority.
WHO said that? It makes no sense . . .
I sure didn’t . . . . the ‘messing up’ as you call it, is intentional and in service of the corporate masters who GOT them offals elected and re-elected . . . and I don’t believe there are any FirePups that would disagree with me.
I suspect we ALREADY know how scared THEY are of the unexpected backbone the peasants are just begining to show.
For what it’s worth, my working assumption has been that most of them don’t. At least, they don’t care enough to give up anything that they’re used to having, including power.
Don’t get hung up on ping pong vs. conference, etc. It’s all the same end result – negotiation leading to a compromise. That negotiated compromise is then passed by both houses without changes, or else you go back to negotiation. The Byrd rule only presents minor obstacles to the Senate reconciliation process: Almost every reform can make it through as long as your 51 votes are strong and stick together on points of order, and in the small chance something couldn’t make it through like insurance regs’, those weren’t worth much anyway because as Jon Walker said there was no enforcement mechanism.
I think that several firedogs would have problems with that proposition, the ones who are being paid by Obama to convince us to support the Health Insurers Corporate Welfare Act of 2010, getting paid to pimp the transition to indentured serfitude.
I’ll have YOUR butter, and extra sea salt!!
Good points . . . but the Dems are screwed in ’10 and ’12 UNLESS a progressive HCR package is delivered, then they MIGHT have a chance if Obama and Congress move quickly on banking/finan reform . . .
Sadly, I don’t think either HCR or any OTHER corporate reforms are gonna happen ..
Because I don’t think Obama or the Dem’s really care about being in the WH or in the Congressional Majority, that’s a kabuki meme saying the two parties are DIFFERENT! They are not, they both serve the same corporatists.
So, I guess in MY scenerio, no reforms, huge Dem losses in ’10 and ’12 . . . and a continued onslaught on any reforms since FDR, including Social Security and Medicare and ANY entitlement package that serves the middle class or the poor . . . and THAT is just BEGGING for open rebellion on the part of we the people . . .
I suspect they’re surprised, although it’s a special election. They can rationalize a great deal. I could, anyway.
What resource it is they think we lack I’m not sure. I suspect they don’t think we’re as smart as they are, but we’ll see. Or not. We certainly don’t have as much money, which is something you can use to hire or buy smart people when you have to.
Even if Coakley loses, which certainly seems to be in doubt, it will only be one small step. Don’t expect the edifice of conservative Democratic leadership to come crashing down. It won’t. It’s going to be a long road all the way through November and beyond.
Bring your lunch.
Yes, truly as Jon and you say, there are no enforcement mechanisms . . . no way to keep premiums down, no way to prevent sick and infirmed and obese and older people from having to pay HUGE premiums they can’t afford, copays they can’t afford, or being denied services they can’t afford . . . always appreciate your comments.
So would I. I just don’t see an easy way to do that beyond changing the way Senators are apportioned, which ain’t gonna happen.
What bothers me is how few other people are making that connection. I’ve left comments on any number of other blogs about this when people spout the line about how the Senate bill is progress. What do I get in response? Crickets chirping.
MS, that’s a pretty rosy picture you paint, if the House gets balls and revises the Senate Shit they were handed.
And Pelosi’s proving they don’t have the votes for that, so Senate will HAVE to give up something(s).
Nice short summary, there, BTW, that’s a keeper . . .
Instead of a 60 vote threshold, why not set the vote to close debate at senators representing a majority of Americans, with each Senator getting 1/2 of the population of their state?
There are reasons for apparently undemocratic practices in bodies that are not constituted democratically.
Huh, those ain’t Firedogs, hoss . . . . *G*
There are two ways to know you are doing the right thing.
One is when a rightous and indignant howl erupts from the right about them being wrongfully punished.
The other is when they go cricket on ya.
I’d say, yer doing the right thing . . . .
I don’t think a big P.O. win from reconciliation will do it, that is, resurrect Obama’s tanking numbers…even if they did that. Too much weakness and “bipartisan” shit over the dam.
And, I still don’t believe that Coakley will lose, but even if she wins, the dems won’t go to the mat for a public option.
But I don’t think that Obama and the dems are as sanguine about getting their asses kicked as you make them. They’re politicians, and they’ve got huge egos. They don’t take kindly to ass-whuppings, which is one more reason I want Coakley to lose. Those emotional dings just might lead to more of the fighting spirit from Obama than we’ve seen. Or not.
Do you really see any hope of the Senate enacting legislation to reform itself in any manner, shape or form?
Ahhh what the hell, we can’t agree on EVERY thing . . . what would be talk about?
Grisman?
*G*
By the way, I’m trying to pass the word on this over at DKos, so if any of you folks are also Kossacks, feel free to Rec this puppy up if you wish.
Article worth a read on huffpost by L. O’Donnell Will Scott Brown Ruin Republicans’ (Secret) Plan to Pass Obamacare?
Naaahhh…Grisman’s OK, but the wheelhoss in the NY Ramblers’ was little Winnie Winston, rest his bones. :o)
Okay! back to bidness…
How about this: I’m thinkin/hoping that if Coakley loses, there will be so much democratic shit flying that the dem congers will quietly tell Obama that someone’s head needs to be on a pike.
Now, whose head might that be? :o) :o) :o) *G*
Come ON! How can we resist even a chance of that happening?
Giant fuckups happen…heads roll. It’s the american way. (Unless you’re at Goldman-Sachs or AIG or Halliburton under Deadeye Dick Cheyney…)
Phoenix; thanks for the link, but I don’t want it passed as it is. No public option? Should have been killed in it’s Senate crib.
Bingo!
The Rightwingnutcrazies are behing Scott Brown now with all their bigbiz$$$$$$$ as well as the lovely FOXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX pseudonews
MA folks are intelligent and pride themselves on not listening to the BS rightwingnut Propaganda. Coakly will win thanks to the folks with IQs over 100
“If Coakley loses in Massachusetts, I don’t see how health care reform passes without reviving reconciliation, and, by default, the public option.”
I think you are living in a dream world.
If Coakley loses, then health care reform in the United States doesn’t pass at all.
Thanks to the teaparty wingnuts last summer and the progressive push-back this winter, HRC is already barely alive. Reid and Pelosie stitched together a very small majority as it is.
If Coakley loses, her loss will be blamed on HCR and the whole initiative will again be radioactive for your Democratic politicians. The talking heads would talk about nothing else for the next two weeks except for how foolish Democrats would be to continue with such a loser initiative, so bad that it will cause even the bluest of the blue states to vote against a Democrat. So then the Democrats in the House will be too scared to pass any health bill — not the Senate bill, not reconciliation, nothing.
Sounds doable. I see nothing wrong with a weighted vote on a procedural issue, and since there is little in the Constitution about such things, it’s might conceivably pass the SCOTUS smell test.
Cathie,
You might want to consider that the conventional wisdom in DC at this point is that the only thing worse than passing HCR is NOT passing HCR. As long as that is the case, they will make extreme efforts to pass something. Anything. They will not abandon the effort because they fear the political consequences. You are buying into the GOP talking points on this subject.
If progressives fetus-fetishists in the House refuse to pass the Senate version, the WH and congressional leadership will go the reconciliation route, and this provides an opportunity to make drastic improvements. Improvements like drug negotiation for Medicare & Medicaid recipients, a public option that anyone can use(or Medicare buy-in option), taxing the rich instead of union members, and many others.
You might want to rethink this.
We’re hopelessly wedged and that inaction will mean that we’ll hit the wall at speed when the global financial system kicks the dollar to the curb because they’ve lost confidence in the US.
There is absolutely no way that we have enough votes for reconciliation at this point.
If Brown wins, every congressmen whose seat is not 100% secure will want to distance him/herself as far as possible from the healthcare reform, not double down. I seriously doubt we would have 50 votes in the Senate either.
If Massachusetts is not behind health reform, rest assured that the rest of the country is not either. Now is the time to play defense. Try passing drug re-import legislation and leave it there.
That would involve being responsive to public opinion. Why would they start now?
Because they needed Pharma support for comprehensive legislation.
Now its divide and conquer time.
And they will screw Pharma now and close off opportunities for future profit later, all to benefit us?
I think you’re right. I think if Coakley loses, the SOTU may not even mention the health care bill. There’s serious voter exhaustion on the issue, and reseting the discussion is simply not an option; it will be kicked to 2013. I expect the SOTU will be full of bipartisan pieties like deficit reduction, social program elimination, and tax cuts.
“Buzz” wrong…
The Dems constantly remind themselves they can’t have a repeat of 1994.
So I believe its safe to assume that “something” will get passed and to Obama’s desk.
If the ONLY way to do that is to make it a “budgetary” issue then so be it, most of the public is not even paying attention to the tiny details anyway. They are only interested in the end result and how it effects them. Come out with the most Progressive thing politically possible and the White House will put their positive spin on it and the netroots will see some positives and line up behind the President = Mission Accomplished
The QUESTION IS -
Is it the smelly Senate Bill or is it through Reconciliation which just about ANYTHING is possible including the expansion of Medicare to everybody, though that’s not likely.
Nope, no re-visit of 1994, it will either be the nasty Senate Bill or something else entirely.
The right wing is lambasting the HCR bills.
The LEFT wing is lambasting the HCR bills..
And now, the left in MA is shrugging their collective shoulders, while the teabagging right fight to take their country back.
To Ed and Jane and all the rest, thanks a bunch.
I know two people I wouldn’t get into a foxhole beside.
Yes, who cares if the Gopers get to take advantage of it eventually. Once the public realizes that Majority rule has returned this will strengthen our hand. Right now the Corporatists use the 60 vote rule to stay in power using the Corp. wings of both parties.
It will be piecemeal stuff, not even the Senate bill. And it will be done in silence. The SOTU is the cutoff. It’s on to the economy–the Democrats, if they pummel Wall Street, might not lose both chambers of Congress in November. But only just.
Hey, don’t blame us ( the progressives) for killing this piece of shit. Obama and his Corporatist pals are the ones to blame. They obviously sold us all down the river long ago and were poised to get just what their BIG Corp. pals wanted . I hope they get their fucking heads handed to them for the string of betrayals this last yr. Its not just HCR thats killing the Dems. its all the rest of the past yr. Throw trillions to Wall st. thieves and then whine about how they aren’t grateful? Then this so called HCR horror. Do these people think were all idiots? Scew them. Its time to break up this bad marriage. The Dems. are like an abusive spouse and this is a sick relationship only growing sicker. They drink of the cup of hubris to often and then come home and beat us up. We have to go out on our own now or forever be in fear of these pricks. Its going to be hard but they’ll find life without their base interesting as well.
Thats the problem with generals like Rahm they’re always fighting the last war. Well, guess fucking what its NOT 1994 is it? Its 2010 and things are quite a bit different this time. Most of us here already believe the Dems. have fouled this attempt at HCR up so badly its not worth going another inch furtherso we don’t give a fuck if the GOP gets vote 41. Lieberman, Bachus, nelson, Lincoln are all Gopers for the most part anyway. What good is having a 60 vote plurality if U can’t ever use it anyway?
the guy you support would cut your throat in an instant if you tried to stop him from joining with your enemies (corporations and republicans).
Thats fine If you pass a very strong Public option then you wont need any of the insurance reforms.
Consumer choice would be enough to kee the insurance companies honest.
The problem is Politicians arent thinking like this, they are most likely going to go with the seante bill, or do reconcilliation and make an EVEN WORSE BILL
Exactly, the Dems back stabbed us and now they want us to go to town for them?
No we need something in return. They are LOSING this fight becasue they botched Health care reform.
Solarpath@109: You may have it right. I’m not sure about the congressional head count, but Obama had no option but to lay it on the line for this Hobson’s Choice. I think a lot of dems were quietly telling him:
“You need to get your ass up there on the off chance that you’ve still got a little coattail left.”
If he didn’t do it, and Coakley loses, he would have gotten a lot of the blame, for leaving her hanging.
Since he did go, if she loses, he’ll probably get blamed FOR coming up.
The way things are going, with his support in the party eroding daily, that distancing you’re talking about could be a reality. I want Coakley to lose, because I think that nothing else will rock the democratic boat enough to make them ask: “What are we doing wrong?” The carrot of unquestioning support from the rank-and-file isn’t working; it’s going to take some stick, and Coakley’s handing out those chits on herself to the health insurance industry and Big Pharma, makes her an even better choice to be a sacrificial stick.
And the idea that losing Kennedy’s ultra-safe seat will make them answer that question with “We’re not far enough to the right”, is preposterous.
This is not about the republicans and conservatives; it’s about the democratic party and Obama’s laissez-faire attitude about putting his clout on the line for some real change. The voters know he hasn’t done that, and he’s going to pay a price for not doing it. How much of one, we’ll know more about, tomorrow.
Obama and the “leadership” have sucked majorly at being front-runners. I’m more than willing to see how they do playing from behind.
What have we got to lose?
The fact that this race is a toss up is really amazing. I mean, this is Massachusetts for crying out loud, and Ted Kennedy’s former seat. The fact that Brown, a teabag party, truly right wing conservative is beating a Dem here is alarming for the Democratic party.
Obama’s alienate the base strategy is paying big dividends…for Republicans.
That’s OK ISO, I wouldn’t want you in a foxhole with me either.
They botched stimulus, cap and trade, credit card reform, and accountability too.
You suffer from the “battered wife syndrome”– you keep hoping, but you know in your head that there is another beating down the line.
The REAL problem_ is that, even if Coakley wins, “reconciliation” should STILL be the right course of action_ and not to FIX the Senate Bill, but to make it nugatory, by OVERRIDING it with reconciliation. To do otherwise is logically insane, and would continue to cause severe rifts in the Democratic Party. The excise tax on higher-priced health plans, which involves Union plans, was a Republican attempt to alienate the heart of Democratic Party support, from the policy makers in Washington. To counter this with anything other than than taking the Bill to reconciliation is suicidal, at best: criminally insane, at worst. One only settles for a PART of the loaf, when one HAS to_ NOT when one, does NOT!
In actuality_ Obama, himself, is irrelevant. His sellout of progressive health-care reform can be MADE irrelevant, if the House refuses to bend on anything other than a stronger Bill WITH a public option. Nelson, Lieberman, and a couple of others, can extort a cave-in from principle, if 60 votes are needed, but the House Progressives can do likewise with Obama, with respect to “reconciliation.” My point_ is that the controlling force at THIS juncture are the Dems in the House. They can force a “STRONG public option, or ELSE!” straightjacket on Obama. He CANNOT let health care reform be scuttled, so he would have no CHOICE but to accept their line in the sand. I’m as disillusioned with Obama’s NON-progressive agenda and stance as ANYone, but he is no longer the linchpin_ the progressives in the HOUSE… ARE!
And as I previously stated, whether Coakley wins or loses is irrelevant. The razor that can be held to Obama’s throat on “reconciliation” is impervious to the outcome of the Mass. election. Whining about Obama will accomplish nothing_ zeroing-in on what needs to be done by the House,… WILL!
Yep, I think you’ve got it.