Rep. Vic Snyder (D-Ark.) announced his retirement today, mixed–but mostly dire–news for Democrats, who were hopeful that he could hold on and defeat his likely, scandal-tainted GOP opponent Tim Griffin. One of the possible reasons for the retirement? A poll conducted by SurveyUSA, paid for by the progressive blog Firedoglake, which tested negative messages about the health care reform bill and whether it made voters sour on Snyder.
I’m sure that makes sense to someone, but not anybody who’s ever read a poll. The baseline question at the top of the poll asked about Obama’s approval ratings in the district, and then tested Snyder against Griffin. Nobody has challenged the accuracy of those numbers, taken before any other questions were asked. If Snyder felt it was time to retire based on that poll, it was because it showed he was running 17 points behind his opponent, and not because we asked a question of 600 people in the district. And if the poll was truly inaccurate, I’m sure the DCCC could spring for the cash to run another one to disprove it.
Seven term congressmen know how to ask for that kind of thing. They don’t retire over polls they know to be invalid.
Far more likely is that the poll confirmed what Snyder already knew. When Parker Griffin switched parties, his staff downloaded all of the DCCC’s polling first. Everyone on the Hill was wigging out about it. All the talk about the “inevitability” of the health care bill passing was, we assumed, a desperate bid to jam it through before anyone found out how badly this insurance industry/PhRMA bailout was hurting the Democrats.
The White House has been assuring everybody that once the bill was passed, they’d do a massive “sell job” on the health care bill that would turn everything around. But if they had the power to do it, one wonders why they weren’t doing so already. Clearly Snyder didn’t think that was going to happen, or he would’ve stuck around.
Weigel continues:
The question, raised by Nate Silver and others: Is Firedoglake trying to scare vulnerable Democrats into retirement in order to kill health care reform? All indications point to “yes.”
If Nate Silver suggests that anyone is trying to “scare vulnerable Democrats into retirement,” Weigel should link to that article, because in the one he references, Nate doesn’t say that. He says “perhaps it will impress Snyder into not voting for a health care bill at all.”
Perhaps Weigel has missed it, but we have been pushing to block the passage of the Senate bill for quite some time, and what he refers to as “push polling” is actually the reality of the bill. SurveyUSA is a wholly reputable polling firm (per the self-same Nate Silver, one of the reasons we chose them). They wrote the questions to try and fairly ascertain what we wanted to know: would voting for the mandate hurt Democrats in 2010? Which, by the way, is not something we would like to see happen. And one only has to look at Mike Stark’s interview with John Shadegg to get a preview of coming attractions:
SHADDEG: Well, you could better defend a public option than you could defend compelling me to buy a product from the people that have created the problem. America’s health insurance industry has wanted this bill and the individual mandate from the get go. That’s their idea. Their idea is “look, our product is so lousy, that lots of people don’t buy it. So we need the government to force people to buy our product.” And stunningly, that’s what the Congress appears to be going along with. Why would they do that?
Here’s what Glenn Smith wrote about the mandate this morning:
I’m still waiting on the D.C. insider to tell me why a government mandate that all Americans buy health insurance from for-profit companies is not a silver bullet that will kill even nine-live Democrats.
We hoped Snyder would decide that he should insist on pulling the mandate out of this bill in exchange for his vote. Now that he’s leaving the seat, he’ll most certainly be a “yes” vote, so that actually does nothing to “kill the bill” for those paying close attention.
If Vic Snyder is getting hammered, it isn’t because of a poll. The fault lies much deeper than that. The corrupt PhRMA deal, the insurance company giveaways, their exemption from anti-trust laws — people understand what’s going on, and Democrats across the country are paying a price for it. You’d have to be in serious denial to pretend anything else.





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Weigel = Shooter
Get used to it, because by all indications it’s going to be a while before we get Democrats to wake up. However, I’m hoping that will be achieved more rapidly than we might think, after we pass a tipping point, and I’m hoping that tipping point will be Coakley’s loss.
You’re hoping for Coakley’s loss now? Did bashing Matt Taibbi with Tim Fernholz get boring or something?
http://firedoglake.com/2009/12/11/two-sentences-by-matt-taibbi/#comment-2031671
Jane, If Coakley loses I predict: first, the Dems will blame her, second, they’ll blame you, third, if we’re lucky they’ll ask you (behind the scenes of coarse) what you think.
I believe the Administration paid its bill to PHARMA, it’s time to start over. But, healthcare as a single Bill is OVER, it’s way too toxic – our Pres. & Congressional Dems. have seen to that. Jon tossed out a great resolution.
p.s. you bet I’m hoping for Coakley’s loss. It’s the ONLY way possible to dethrone Obama’s henchman!
Don’t wanna re-hash Taibbi, but when I emailed him challenging some statements (a few days before the Fernholz thing) he responded with some pretty convincing explanations, so I gained respect for him…and I think overall the Fernholz/Salon episode might sharpen Taibbi’s critique that extra last bit. I believe that when we challenge those of us we agree with, we should all come out the better for it.
I didn’t say I’m hoping for Coakley’s loss, I said I hoped her loss would swing the party left, although yeah, pretty much, I hope she loses. If Nancy can get a real national exchange, then I hope Coakley wins, let’s just pass that turkey with 60 votes, take the losses at the polls, and keep going. I’d say if there’s no national exchange, the bill just ain’t getting it done, and watching a repeat of 94 at the polls will be so lame. So, no national exchange, then I hope Coakley loses, the Democrats ponder doing nothing on health care or going to reconciliation, they pick the latter, we do get a substantial amount of good reforms, probably the public option, probably a lot better than the 60 votes get us, and we suffer minimal losses at the polls. While at the same time pissing the hell out of the Evan Bayhs, etc., and maybe getting their useless asses defeated in Nov. That would be so much more fun.
Jane,
Clearly FDL and Glenn Greenwald are responsible for everything that’s going wrong in the world. Why even the NYT’s Paul Krugman has come to this conclusion today:
It’s the whole “we lost in 1994 because we didn’t pass a health care bill” bullpucky. NAFTA (which was Rahm’s baby) hurt the Dems more in 1994 because it, combined with the other triangulating backstabs of the base, caused demoralized Dems to stay home that year.
Why is Glenn Greenwald destroying America?
Yeah, while I can follow the illogic that Rahmbo uses, I don’t get why it hasn’t yet buried his carcass under the nearest rock.
Public Option = Good for Democrats!
Senate Bill = Bad for Democrats!
Shorter Rahmbo illogic: “Let’s go with the Senate bill!”
And from Brazil no less! *g*
It occurs to me that we never got proper credit for “taking out” Dodd and Dorgan.
I won’t mention Ted Kennedy if you don’t. *g*
Do we want to deny killing anything these days? Let’s just put on the ol’ Cheshire Cat look when so accused.
I guess he likes you. ;-)
FDL blamed for losses, FDL blamed for being “ineffective.”
Funny, that.
It’s so weird that just participating, passionately and vigorously in the debate paints you in one corner (blame) or the other (ineffective), rather than simple acknowledgment of the same damn goal, and advancing the viewpoint/discussion.
Is that the same Tim Griffin that was Turd Blossom’s protege…???
Because of his irritating “elitist” devotion to detailed factual information and logic — a trait you share. In The Nihilist States of American Idol, it is beyond tiresome.
I wrote this toward the end of the previous thread on this poll:
Blaming this poll for Snyder’s exit is like blaming the mirror for what you’re seeing in it.
Ah, so that is where the push-polling charge came from. Someone is not happy, apparently.
If he thinks those opinions were push-polled, he needs to come talk with folks outside the Beltway. We’re not nearly as stupid as those within the Beltway think we are. Healthcare reform is in trouble, but not for the reasons that Republicans are citing daily on the teevee. Folks see the corruption; Ben Nelson now knows that but jettisons the wrong part of his stupid tactics. Federalizing Medicaid would be a step forward.
Folks are waking up and saying about people they have voted for in several elections, “Your Honorableness, we hardly knew ye, it appears.”
Yes, the one who Rove wanted to install in Arkansas as a U.S. Attorney.
Breaking: Joe Lieberman slips and falls on frozen ground; dispatched Dangerstein who decries Lefty-Commie-Pinko-FemBlobbers for not dissing ice.
Reads like we all here at FDL are DFHs smoking way too much and getting paranoid.
Shorter Krugman: “I like them better when they just get the munchies.”
Oh yeah.
Jane, exactly correct. Note too that the Democrats are painting Coakley in Ma. as a weak candidate to cover their behinds in case she loses. I saw an article (Boston Globe I think yesterday) that claimed Coakley was running a poorly organized campaign. One thing they cited: she didn’t campaign for the 5 days surrounding Christmas Day! Wow! At the same time, the Obamas were in Hawaii for what, like 2 weeks. I think Coakley was smart to stay home over the holidays, talk with family and friends, and keep her ads off t.v. during that time: she saved her powder and who would have paid any attention on 25 December anyway?
It will be excuse after excuse but never the real reason: Obama won running on a progressive platform but now is faltering badly because he long ago ditched that progressive platform for DLCer stands on issue after issue.
If the “health insurance” reform bill passes, it will be the death of the Democratic party as we know it. Every single problem that people ever have with their insurers will be laid at the feet of the responsible people: Obama and his Democrats.
It should be so obvious to these people, with Coakley having trouble in one of the bluest of blue states and with all of these Democrats dropping out of races. Harry Reid will also lose. It’s almost as if that’s precisely what Rahm wants.
From Krugman’s column:
What a crock of shit! The current HCR process has been as corrupt as any government deliberation in history and the only problem Paul sees is that Glenn and FDL are being hard on his pal Gruber?
I know. This from the guy who gives Summers and Geithner a pass because of “academic colloquialism”, never mind the merits.
What happened to Paul?
“Being in politics is like being a football coach. You have to be smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enough to think it’s important.” – Eugene McCarthy
As far as Krugman, it sounds like it’s finally gone to his head, what all with the Nobel and the $1M apartment in NYC he just bought. I liked him better before he started going off the rails.
Right. And OOOH that we have such POWER!
Behold! I Smite Joe Lieberman!
Crap! He’s still around!
The truth is more that we are really passionately engaged in the struggle, and have only ourselves to rely upon, and being free from corruption, have virtually and literally zero “buy” in a process which is so unseemingly bought all the time.
The charges are laughable, so we might as well laugh!
I just submitted the following comment to Krugman’s column. I don’t expect it to get approved.
I think it was that heart operation. Personalities change after they’ve had a heart operation, or so I’ve heard.
Good evening,firepups.
I responded with this comment:
The comment is awaiting moderation. Apparently, I’ve been immoderate. ;)
[On a purely technical note, I'd like to say that the choice of text color for the block quotes is very unfortunate. It looks exactly the same as the link color on my laptop's screen.]
Confusious say, “He who points a finger has three pointing back at him.”
Such kamakazi tactics. Poor guy. It’s going to hurt so much making six figures lobbying.
Sounds to me like someone has painted a target on FDL’s back
Fasten your seat belts.
Traumatic and potentially fatal events can do that, and heart surgery certainly fits that description.
Has anyone seen this piece or commented on it yet?
Wall Street Journal op-ed propagates Rasmussen’s false claim that … – 10 hours ago
By Alex Seitz-Wald at 1:00 pm ThinkProgress recently noted that Politico failed to fact check right-leaning pollster Scott Rasmussen’s false claim that he …
Think Progress – 9 related articles »
I find it interesting that Rham and others inside the beltway thinks it’s fine to pick fights with the base and when the base fights back by staying home they blame the canaries in the mine shaft instead of looking in the mirror. Maybe a loss in Mass is what they really need to wake up. And per chance they fail to learn that lesson and move further right and corporatist additional losses in November is what they deserve.
Dodd is also pulling Tauzin so that he can find a cushy job working for the finance industry by jettison the consumer protection agency and no one is paying attention. This is why Dems are losing, they lack principle.
AGREE with Cujo on the link color and the quoted text color as being the same. Can someone at FDL change that?
Also agree with Cujo’s post which is nicely written!
Nice.
I’m convinced the reason for Gruber’s lack of disclosure was exactly as has been suggested, that the admin was planting stories in the press they could later cite as independent validation. Different admin, same old shit.
I understand that must be the official position of FDL, but I just don’t get it.
If they’re not going to face real consequences when they fuck something up this badly, why should they believe they’ll ever face any consequences.
I mean, I could probably understand this attitude if the Democrats tried really hard to pass a good bill, but it’s attempts were foiled by the Republicans and nothing got passed, or the Republicans insisted on a mandate as the only option. However, this isn’t what happened.
The Democrats never really fought for anything remotely “good” in this round of reform. Oh, a few here and there did, but the President is also the leader of his/her party and they most certainly set the tone with their early deals with the insurance industy and PhRMA.
But this thing is even worse than almost anything I could’ve ever imagined when this process started. So I’m sorry, but I WOULD LIKE TO SEE the Democrats suffer because of this. Just as much as I’d like to see the Republicans suffer because of this if it were their bill.
I’d bet if the Republicans had even PROPOSED anything like this back when Bush was President the opposition from progressives would’ve been unanimous. I really believe that. Might be wrong, been there many times before, but I really believe that. And I really believe this bill is so bad that the PARTY itself needs to suffer. And if they suffer and relearn the wrong lessons, well, that’s their bad and means they need some more learnin *g*.
YMMV though. Still love AND respect you so much Jane. Can’t say thanks enough for all you and all here have done to keep their feet to the fire and for providing a real, “non-veal pen” analysis of what’s been going on. Damned impressive and appreciated.
Yeah, like maybe getting that Nobel was such a traumatic event for Paul, it changed his personality, and now he’s a simpering apologist. We should feel sorry for him, he’s not attacking Jane, Glenn and FDL because he wants to, it’s the after-effect of that trauma.
Trul, deeply sorry to interupt this message but: run, don’t walk, over to Glenn Greenwald to hear about Cass Sunstein’s plan to ‘cognitively infiltrate’ websites and activist groups who advocate ‘wrong conspiracy theories.’ www. salon.com
“If they’re not going to face real consequences when they fuck something up this badly, why should they believe they’ll ever face any consequences.”
___
Hello? Two words: ‘Wall Street.’
I’m not at all surprised that there are already efforts to blame Firedoglake and others for the Democrats’ electoral failures.
It’s obvious nonsense, but Democrats are already blaming Coakley for losing Kennedy’s Senate seat rather than blaming themselves.
The problem for us in 2010 remains. We have to keep the focus on the Democrats and their failures. They have bigger microphones and can more easily cast the blame they so richly deserve on others.
This is what I’ve been saying about getting out of the way as Democrats go down for having sold out the American people.
When they lose big time in Nov, there should be no one to blame but the sellout Democrats.
It’s not that far off the topic actually IMO.
Rahm is the “execution arm” of Sunstein and Obama’s ideas dontchaknow. Gruber is paid in cash, Fernholtz and Weigel in kudos and crumbs of access.
er, from my point of view FDL is a true friend and a true believer in the Democratic Party, and just wishes it would shape up and fly right.
taking aim at JH for pointing out the obvious inadvisability of passing HCR with mandates that people will despise for generations is beyond ludicrous – can’t you see she’s trying to help?!? sheesh.
Yeah, I read that earlier today. Meet the Concern Troll Department of the new Soviet Ministry of CyberPropaganda.
You think Speaker Boehner and Majority Leader McConnell sounds good?
Have you spent a nanosecond considering what that would mean?
I think this might actually be worse than Armstrong Williams, though Obama gets a pass for it.
Murdoch might not have given Firedoglake the credit, but at least he saw the significance of the issue and ran with the story.
So they don’t need 60 votes after all?
Senate Can Pass Health With 51 Votes, Van Hollen Says
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aPg2UfFaCh9c&pos=9
Not OFG’s point. He is just saying if we keep casting lesser of evils votes, we are rewarding bad behavior and the Dems will have no incentive to behave differently.
I agree.
I no longer even believe Dems are the lesser of evils (I would say it is a draw). A Republican majority would not be on the verge of passing legislation requiring Americans to purchase crap insurance from private corporations.
Not to mention President Palin.
Preposterous? So was this cat.
You may be right. It certainly fit in with their strategy of not mentioning that he worked for them.
Central understanding:
If an organization has leadership that simply will NOT bend to political entreaty, will not bend to political herding, will not bend to political bribery (as TPM did in2008),
Then that organization will
-be targeted for repeated off the cuff media criticism (aka media bullying)
And
- be ridiculed
By the boys and girls feeling each
Other up on the main stream media bus (to
Nowhere),
Weigel, writing at the Washington independent,
Writes as if he were completeing his essay seeking entrance into the hyperVISE VORLD of
Can you guess?
Right!
Politico.
Yeah!
Politico, that derivative of wapoop, led by wapoop alumni
john “all we got is our integrity (stiffed in our underwear)” Harris and poolboy Vanderpol.
That’s mainstream journalism these days – always read the great bob sumerby at “the daily howler”.
Somehow fdl is responsible
For
- The retirement of a congressman
Who is 10′s of
Percentage
Points behind his republican opponent.
Was his a rational decision, or one forced on him by the evil forces of fdl?
The dave knows.
But does know ( and write about) those ad buys by
The ahip beatles under the aegis of the
U.s. Chamber of commerce?
Did you
Connect the dots, dave?
Or were you too busy coloring fdl responsible?
I was figuring that if Coakley lost in Mass., we’d be seeing articles like this right after. Guess they’re way ahead of me.
Okay then, keep right on rewarding them with your support and vote no matter what kinds of crap they do to us.
Have you even spent a nano-second considering the consequences of THAT?
Endless wars and legislation favorable to moneyed interests?
That would be different how, exactly?
“A Republican majority would not be on the verge of passing legislation requiring Americans to purchase crap insurance from private corporations.”
___
No, they’d legislate the issuance of “vouchers” to Medicare beneficiaries, LOL! (that has in fact been proposed)
Talk about repeating actions and expecting different results.
Like trying to housebreak your dog by giving him a steak every time he craps on the rug.
My point is simply that the Dems are no longer the lesser of evils, they do not work in the public interest, neither do the Republicans.
The major parties are two fat maggots munching on the bloated corpse of our Republic. No matter which maggot is in a position to take bigger bites, the “patient’s” prognosis remains the same.
“What’s wrong with(Ar)Kansas?” ;-)
I can think of at least one way that providing vouchers to pay for insurance is better than mandating us to do it.
Because that way the funds are coming from taxes (which are still a bit progressive) rather than from the individual (which can be very regressive). In fact, had they used 100% vouchers to pay for the mandate in THIS bill, I wouldn’t object, because then it’s 100% funded through taxes, which means the rich WILL be paying their fair share. When they just mandate us to use our own money, they’re shifting that responsibility from the rich to the middle class. Something I though progressives usually objected to.
707!
No, no, you vary both the episodic reward intervals and amount of steak to effect the quickest and most durable operant conditioning learning.
(I live in Vegas. The demographic empirical validation of Skinnerianism.)
No argument from me there.
Oh, the irony of this excerpt,from a Boston Globe 2007 article about Massachusetts health care:
“It was a great plan in Massachusetts, but the notion that you could do this nationally is simply laughable,” said Jonathan Gruber, an MIT economist and member of the Health Insurance Connector Authority board that oversees the Massachusetts program. “If you’re going to cover the uninsured nationally you’re going to have to raise new funds.”
Gruber added yesterday, “He (Romney)gets credit for a brilliant plan here in Massachusetts but he should be honest about what it takes to create such a plan nationally.”——————
NOTE:Should not have Gruber taken his OWN advice BEFORE recently asserting that lower health costs would result in driving higher wages?
Romney’s universal healthcare idea can’t be copied in most states …Nov 3, 2007 … It sounds like a simple solution to one of the nation’s most vexing problems: how to provide healthcare coverage to the uninsured without …
http://www.boston.com › News › Nation – Similar
It’s been at the top of Matt ‘Raw Eggs’ Fudge for awhile now:
DEM THREAT: SENATE CAN PASS HEALTHCARE WITH 51 VOTES
Just hadn’t seen it mentioned here yet.
Yes, I go to that odious site.
From Obama’s Coloumbia SC speech, after winning the primary, Jan 27, 2008:
So keep on keeping on, oldgold.
OldfatGuy and ratfood: Unfortunately, if you are unable to discern the difference between the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, as Ron “Tater Salad” White has observed there is no cure for what ails you.
But, but, but… Paul Krugman thinks Gruber is the best in the business and his farts smell like bakery-fresh cinnamon rolls! Krugman won a Nobel Prize, so it must be true.
Here’s the difference between R & D:
R’s will rape you & shit on your pillow.
D’s will rape you & leave a quarter.
If they have Change.
Keep rewarding bad behavior, it might not yield the result you want but it will provide the one you deserve.
Be clear: the Repu’ublicists are not proposing vouchers for the purchase of “insurance.” It’s more like school vouchers.
Yeah, right, a $2,500 a year voucher will enable me to send my kid to a quality private/charter school. Right.
(And, I sent my son to private school for all but 2 of his K-12 experience. His bill averaged about $7,500 a month. My grandson now goes to private high school — on a full-ride scholarship, though. Otherwise it’s about $18k a year, and he would not be going.)
In practical terms then, how would you suggest we notice Democrats that if they can’t be trusted to drive, they don’t get the keys?
I mean it – what do you suggest?
I’ve been hearing things like this too, that they’re talking about using procedural methods to bypass the filibuster.
They’re not going to do it to pass a public option or anything that could be real health care reform, mind you.
They’re going to do it to pass their bullshit bill because they have to make sure not to miss out on all the giveaways to the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.
I’m becoming seriously embarrassed that I supported these losers for so many years.
Yeah, well, unfortunately, if you’re always supporting any organization or person no matter what they ever do, right or wrong, then likewise, as Ron “Tater Salad” White observed there is no cure for what ails you.
Want to keep calling each other stupid?? Is that your idea of fun?
I relish the fact I didn’t vote for Lieberman in 2000, nor Skull & Bones in 2004, nor for AIG/Goldman Sachs in 2008.
No, I didn’t vote for Nader either, but I won’t say who I wrote in.
I said in Nov 2008 that Obama would either be Kennedy’d or Carter’d.
Looks like he’s going for the second option.
Nothing will change unless we can sever the link between corporate money and politics. Since that would require politicians to act against their own self interest it seems like a non-starter. Not feeling very cheerful so I’m going to hunker down in hermit hollow and call it a night.
Splendid evening to all.
tell us a couple differences then, give us a few links.
try to stay within the last 40 years – sorry no JFK or FDR – the Democrats have changed a bit over the generations!
I now have 390 days to Medicare eligibility. Just stay healthy.
Hey Jane…
As the old nursery rhyme goes:
Or as later written:
My Daddy was a Yellow Dog Texas Democrat … In Lubbock.
Obama and the Democrats have fucked up big time. They froze out progressives and their policies stink. So their reaction naturally is to blame progressives, and yet at the same time tell us that we must work to re-elect the fuckups who fucked up because they are the lesser of two evils and that we will be setting back the progressive agenda if said fuckups who were doing everything in their power to subvert this agenda are not elected in November.
What never seems to rate a mention is that Obama and the Democrats could have proposed and enacted good, solid legislation trimming back and eliminating the worst of the Bush excesses. It never seemed to occur to them or, more likely, they were never interested. Obama and the Democrats have also used the argument that they didn’t have the votes but they controlled the Presidency and both Houses of Congress so what this really reduces to is that they didn’t want to (because they always had the votes).
Niters RF.
Stay well.
nite rat
OFG – we’re never going to convince someone who loves the Broncos and hates the Raiders to do anything else. It’s a team sport to them, and they’re addicted.
Changing the game is a whole different story, and much more difficult, taking much more time.
We just keep plugging along.
Lemme give you a for instance.
I’ve been working on gay rights for 30 years. There is NO significant federal legislation, excepting the recent Hate Crimes law, which has been burbling up for years and years. Obama is the mere signer on a Title with years and years of efforts behind it. A beneficiary, not the cause of change.
Meanwhile, society has changed a bunch in 30 years, mostly because of people becoming brave and getting out of the closet, and proud of who they are. It’s an assertive thing.
So this loud blustery noisy democratic debate process raging on the intertoobz is good. You don’t have to win today. You just keep winning an inch at a time and sooner or usually much, much later, you win. Game changed.
Meant to say “Skull & Boners” in 2004.
Kerry being the ‘skull’ and Edwards…
well, you get the idea.
(and, yes, Obama could win re-election depending on what Rahm Emmanuel Goldstein cooks up)
G’night RF! *waves at Bob!*
Glen Greenwald is right about Sunstein’s “Spine-chilling proposal,” but everyone here should already have stories about wrestling with commenters that have the ability to type 200 WPM and come back in 2 minutes with research results that would take three people 20. It’s nothing new. They obviously work in teams. Maybe it’s about to get ten times worse but what I’d like to know is what kind of souless automotons do that for a living? Do they get together in the mornings and do chants with red scarves on, or are they just bratty little blow-hards with inferiority complexes?
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell …
Senate Can Pass Health With 51 Votes, Van Hollen Says” is spot on – indeed 59 ends conservative Dem control of Dem agenda – unless Obama is ready to quit pretending to be a liberal and actually set openly a conservative agenda = we need only go to 51 vote budget recon. to get real liberal – indeed real change – legislation.
Obama knew a 60 vote demand meant a bill written by the corporations – and then he is surprised when the Mass Dem base reacts by sitting on their hands.
Today in Politico (President Obama makes risky bet on Massachusetts Senate race):
I’ve seen a few references like this one.
On the other hand, from yesterday, there’s this House Dems To Coakley: Don’t Lose If You Want Health Care Reform at TPM:
I won’t be supporting Democrats this year unless they have a solid progressive record. Otherwise, I’m giving my support and votes to third party candidates.
Yes, we seem to be waiting for what will undoubtedly be a weak-tea banking reform bill, followed by, well, what? There were so many things that they could have undone even without an act of Congress, yet they chose not to do that, either.
For what little it’s worth, this hadn’t escaped my notice, but I assume you were referring mostly to folks not in attendance.
If Coakley loses, it will be another generation before health care reform is addressed again.
The idea that if Coakley loses they would try to ram something thru using reconciliation is as ludicrous as voting Republican to make Congress more progressive.
I’d sooner expect Dick Cheney to apologize for existing.
I would like to see them face consequences, I’d just like those consequences to be losing to progressives, not Republicans.
I think that is likely to happen anyway. If it does, perhaps it will be considered by a group of people who are more attuned to their public than these guys are.
If you’re going to try the same old thing over and over again when it doesn’t work, then there’s really nothing to say until you finally get tired of it.
Maybe we need to start tag teaming them back.
*g*
Really! No shit?
Here, let’s find every superior being who has deigned to enlighten us all about the sad finality of “60 votes” and send ‘em an email.
Why?
Assuming facts not in evidence. I can conceive a few scenarios
1 – vote is Rahm’ed through prior to election in MA
2 – reconciliation is used to pass vote
3 – Dems with conscience in the house refuse to be neutered
Each of those has a probability from low to high, but they’re not impossible.
They’re more likely to lose to Ron Paul types than Kucinich types.
If only there was a way to show the differences…
like a Paul/Kucinich mock Presidential debate?
How about a dead fish mass-mailing?
;^)
Ding ding ding!
I know you get real real busy, but I love it when you mix it up in comments, and wish you could do it more often.
How many voters have actually heard of FDL? One in a ten? One in a hundred?
One in a thousand? I seriously doubt it. So, how could we cause so much damage to such an important group like the ObamaRhamaDramaQueens?
I think Coakley is going to win. I suspect Brown peaked a week too early.
I am sorry for the intemperate tone of my comments tonight, but when people suggest that empowering and emboldening the Party of Limbaugh is a path to a more progressive future, I lose my patience.
Hi Senator! And belatedly, welcome to the “Full Name” club. *g*
Hey. I been using my full name forevah. Just all run on like. Since becoming all most famous I put in the proper amount of spaces. And hello to you, too.
…I think it was a bad bad move when the DLC’ers basically kicked Dean out of the party. They’re not going to be able to use him as a scapegoat now.
It just looks so purty now, I had to say something.
Striking a balance between being doormats and nihilists is tricky.
Not.
But this has to end. Either we put some shoulder into public policy or we get whatever Pharma and their ilk dish out. And the longer we let them do it, the more entrenched…
Hell, you know all this.
Well, excuse my impertinent reply, but why the fuck are being so patient with ObamaRahma?!
They’ve done little BUT
and they certainly have NOT done so as
.
Care to explain how you plan to move them without threatening them?
Sheesh.
Yeah, me too. By far. But if it doesn’t happen in the primary then I’m fine with it happening in the general.
I mean IMO they really have gotten to the point that they feel they owe the progressives NOTHING, ZILCH, because they know we’re always buying into the “But just imagine a President Palin” scare tactic. And IMO, that’s never going to change as long as as we keep falling for that same old scare tactic.
I mean look at the relationship with corporations. They (D pols) want money from them, and they’re bending over backwards to reward them because of the pressure they feel knowing if they don’t, the corps will withhold that support and not give them any more money.
From progressive activists/voters, they want votes. But there is ZERO pressure as long as we reward them with our vote no matter what, so therefore we get ZERO reward back.
So I’d like that “pressure” changed, even if it means they lose in the general. But yeah, most definitely would rather them lose to a progressive primary challenger. That would certainly speed up the process! *g*
So would I. The problem I see is that there are lots of places where that isn’t going to be possible. What do we do when there is no good progressive alternative (think: Nevada Senate race)? It’s become pretty clear that the label “Democrat” doesn’t mean anything. Politicians who would have been Republicans a few years ago are Democrats now.
We also have quite a few “progressives” in Congress already, particularly in the House. They have enough to block any legislation at the moment, yet they don’t. How many more of them do we need before that starts to happen?
I have to think these progressives fear something else more than they do failing us. I’d like that to change, and I suspect that’s going to only happen when they realize that if they screw up enough, that we’ll take our votes elsewhere. Until that’s demonstrated, though, they won’t believe it.
Deal. I gotta work, help with homework, eat, sleep and occasionally relax though.
WRT @106, A lot more voters have heard of FDL thanks to Jane’s genious strategizing than we probably know. Logic is powerful.
Speaking of sleep…. GN
Plus, they have a history of being dishonest and unreliable.
Ha ha! I meant that I’ll only support individual Democrats who have a solid progressive record. There are a few running for the House and Senate who are worth supporting.
People are going to hate me for saying this and ask why the hell am I posting here if I believe this…
but…
If Americans didn’t rise up and overthrow Bush/Cheney, what would it take short of total economic collapse to convince them not to empower their oppressors?
Perhaps collapse is the ObamaRahma plan? It’s the only rational answer other than, “Not quite a dime’s difference.”
Is America too stupid to be saved from itself? I think the answer is ,”Yes.”
We need to think of the dems and repugs as the same party. Then we don’t spend a lot of time “what if-ing”.
Please explain. I don’t get why anyone supports the exchange. My understanding is, a list of for profit insurances that we can buy into. The same choices the elected officials have. But we pay for theirs. We can’t afford to buy thoses plans on our own, or did I miss something. I heard a large percentage of the government employees in those plans had to switch policies because some of them had gotten so expensive they could not afford their share. We would be paying the whole share. When Obama said we should all have the same chance as them to buy these plans, he forgot to tell you, you are on your own paying for them while at the same time, your tax dollars are paying for their plans.
Just my opinion, but I think the only plans they have are about themselves and their specific agendas, which do not include the general well being of actual Americans.
I think the “they” of the Versaille On The Potomac really don’t get it from the point of view of the real average American, just the Village version of the average American, which they think is Them.
There really isn’t any plan for “us.” Until we enact one.
I think ‘extract’ is the word you are looking for.
like Marcy Winograd against jane Harman in California
Touche!
No, no, no.
There is a plan “for us.”
It’s called Neo-Feudalism, and the NeoCons & the NeoLibs have us hurtling towards it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-feudalism
Night all.
Pretty sad, having to essentially extort decent public policy from our elected, but that is where we are.
How do we threaten them, their comforts, their job security, their perks?
Sitting on our thumbs hasn’t proven effective to this point.
While lurking yesterday, I saw this comment by figaro on a thread in a diary at the Seminal:
Except for one very important thing, they aren’t the same.
I’ve written this before many times, and I’ll write it again – I have no party loyalty. I want good government. If voting Republican gets me good government, I’ll vote Republican.
“The question, raised by Nate Silver and others: Is Firedoglake trying to scare vulnerable Democrats into retirement in order to kill health care reform?”
Jane,
Either
1. The DLCers will blame you & FDL for the monumental failure,
Or
2. They believe you are running the country, and want you to stop running it.
Or both.
It’s amazing the only way they can deny their actions is to ceed all the power to you!
How do you do all this, and have time to brush your teeth? :-)
The big problem is if they are not reelected they just move into a cushy job with their masters. Wanna bet Dodd doesn’t go to work for some lobby firm or a bankster thingie?
Heads they win.
Tails we lose.
In other words…
2 Parties
1 Cup
(Now I’m really outta here.)
The republicas openly want to destroy Government (except the Military), and the Democrats won’t state that the government can do good works, becuase their paymasters don’t want to be subject to government.
Have you heard of Samuel Alito or Sonia Sotomayor?
The Machine is going to make SCOTUS appointments, and Sotomayor is no progressive. Read her rulings.
If Obama puts Sunstein up, we’re really screwed.
Keep trying!
No argument there worth mentioning. I just get the feeling that people sometimes view voting for one party or the other as some sort of sacred duty. It’s not. We should vote to make our world better. We may differ on what that means and how to achieve that, but that’s what it should be.
I was a 9? 10? buck an hour 28 year old cook in boston in ’88 when dud-kakis roared outta labor day with a 17 point lead, and boo – hoo, the meanie liars lied and were mean, and, dud-kakis lost to willie horton & atewater.
there were all kinds of state problems that came outta the woodwork after he lost – all these hotshots who thought they’d be banking up mega-air miles, and mega consulting job$, unloaded on dud-kakis and blamed him for the sinking of the titanic …
I mean for kerry’s loss … oh, wait … what about when I lived in Tip O’Neil’s district and he was selling out to Raygun … gawd, it is all so confusing!
maybe mass voters would rather sit on their couch picking belly button lint than worrying about which fucking sell out their gonna elect to betray them again?
rmm.
Progressive is an elastic term, particularly in evaluating an Appellate Justice, but one thing is certain, she is to the left of Roberts and Alito.
This clown act from Cirque du Soleil “ne me quitte pas” (Don’t leave me!) is pretty funny. The clown spends the whole act trying to remain in the limelight. Ironically, Scott Brown (R) for Massachusetts Senate is the ad that appears with the Youtube video (not sure if this ad is visible to others outside Massachusetts but someone at Youtube has a sense of humor)
Coakley is a corporate dem.? So what if she loses. HCR has proven D or R makes no difference.
Whoop-de-doo! An inch left of Roberts, a mile right from the people.
When are you going to get that policy, versus team, matters?
Why would anybody be patient with obamarahm after TARP? Expecially doing HCR right after and being all broke and pitiful.
If someone was trying to break the democratic party in little pieces, this would be a very nice plan.
It fits with KKKarl’s . Break every single institution the US holds dear. Family, church,media community and faith in govt.This is the way England broke the Irish culture. America destroyed the Native American culture. Take away everything making them unique and powerful. Took away their language and musical instruments. Third Way.Easier to manipulate.
And this is just my opinion…
Soto may not be to the Left, but she does not appear to be an ideologue.
Such is not true of the other two.
And I can make pancakes too!
Actually Masaccio is here and he is a much better cook than me so he should make the pancakes. The dogs and I will help with the eating part.
And then we will complete our evil plan for Total. World. Domination.
Or take a nap, one or the other.
I don’t think she’s saying she doesn’t want it to hurt them if they do it. She’s saying she doesn’t want to see Dems hurt at the polls because she wants them to save themselves before it is too late. That is why she is pointing out to them how poisonous this is before the vote. If Dems had any sense, they’d thank Jane and FDL for trying to save them from themselves and their stupid leadership.
I wasn’t buying that you and Glenn could accomplish world domination. But now you mention the dogs, I can see why you have so much power over mere political mortals. Our poodle is only a mini and he and the chihuahua totally run this place.
Thanks, Jane — reminds me of one of my favorite Douglas Adams quotes:
lol I don’t even know where to start with this, it’s so misguided. Oh I’m certain if we just rammed through single payer goverment health care, Vic Snyder would be winning by record margins!
Whatever makes you sleep nights Jane lol
Yes, if only we were ruled from AR — loads of moonshine and God’s 10 Commandments on our front lawn… all would be well with the world.
Constituents reward Representatives by at least two metrics – a willingness to provide individual and mass constituent services, and courage of convictions.
Snyder has neither.
KILL THE MESSENGER!!!
If you were Truly Powerful, you would do both. Simultaneously.
I’m betting that the Republicans have lined up just enough votes — from retiring members who won’t have to face voters — to vote “yes” on this piece-of-crap bill so it will pass and can be hung around the Dems’ necks.
Repub votes might arguably make it “bi-partisan,” but I think Repubs figure they can get a lot more mileage out of getting this monster passed [with "Dem" on its license plate] than by allowing it to die.
Repubs are really in a win-win position: if the bill passes, Dems are toast and Repubs will crow ceaselessly about its failures. If the bill loses, Repubs can say they “saved America” from those same failures.
Dems, OTOH, are in the perfect lose-lose situation: if the bill fails, they’re weak, worthless shits who can’t get anything done. If it passes, well . . .
PS – Jane, isn’t it mighty late in your time zone?
I think it is a given that if(when) HCR fails, it will be because it went too far.
keep hitting them with the truth Jane.
Often times people don’t want to hear the truth of a situation when it makes them uncomfortable…..but sooner or later the truth always has to be dealt with cause it will not go away.
You are a champion to the true progressive.
You are doing a great job, Jane.
Z
In reality so many pick one cause your Congressman,Senator and President clame to stand for while other lawmakers give them cover not to do the work for the people.Like the Public Option how many of these law makers pretended to be for a Public Option.Now were to be greatful there the ones that watching out for the citizens well being.Without these law makers we have now we would be left under the controle of the Insurance Congiomerate and Big Pharma makeing your Health Care decisions based on there profit margen.Not like the Public Option or buy into Medicare where the choise would be yours and the Doctor of choise. Whatever district your in your Congressman, Senator and President need to be heald accountable for the bad thay vote for.Not for the good thay clame to be for.Shake up DC.Are you really going to vote for the Incumbent or someone backed by the Republican Party or the Democrat Party. First clean DC of the Incumbent then choose sides.Progressive or Tea Party.
Americans want the truth? Americans can’t handle the truth! Keep talking truth to power, Jane.
I have to disagree with this. If we rammed through single-payer now, and the benefits were seen by July (possible because you are leveraging off the administrative and IT systems of Medicare) and all Democrats in both Houses stood in unity on its passage, no Democrat would be vulnerable because of it. It would be “Don’t let the government take over my single-payer.”
And every Republican who voted against it would be in trouble. This is the political calculus that the industry has spent millions of dollars trying to obscure from members of Congress. And millions of dollars trying to obscure from ordinary citizens. If there was a natural antipathy to that solution, industry groups could have saved a whole hell of a lot of money. Instead, Arkansas has been awash in ads and propaganda of all kinds to try to preserve the status quo.
“It’s almost as if that’s precisely what Rahm wants”
I don’t know if I totally agree with that now. It seems the reality of how hard the Dems are gonna BITE IT in 2010, may NOW just be beginning to sink in. What with Obama and Trumka agreeing (much to the middle class’ distaste), chatter about a national exchange, Nelson withdrawing his states medicaid deal, PHRma dissing health care reform now due to Obama pulling out two years of their exclusive deal, and Obama dropping everything and running to Massachusetts to help Coakley. I just hope it doesn’t turn out like the olympic bid thing, FAIL. Or the Copenhagen thing, FAIL. Now Massachusetts? Uh, Fail? Lets hope not.
Exactly so.. Americans have no other vehicle to register their outrage. Obama and corporate cohorts are not listening. What a fool he is to go to MA
as was to go to NJ.
The Democrats have not handled things well, admittedly. But the constant brainwashing from the media and the ads run by the healthcare industry against any bill have done damage beyond hope. The Republicans have won by dragging the whole thing out and the Democrats let them by trying to compromise with uncompromising people. It is just sad.
Lets Pray that Massachusetts Citizens feel the pain that the middle class to poverty feel. No jobs(kills a persons selfesteem)none tax paying(haveing to ask for charity to feed your familey)Health Care will be rashioned by Insurance Conglomerate(paid for mandated on the backs of the middle class ever shrinking)collected pay for the Insurance Conglomerate by the goverment IRS.(from an ever shrinking middle class)for the good of America the choice would be the Republican in Massachusetts Tuesday.
Maybe the way to fix health care is to first increase the number of physicians in this country. Money to medical schools so they can double the size of incoming classes; along with new Nurse Practitioner programs. The Feds could subsidize building a new modern medical school in every state, from scratch.
Then, in x years, the US will be ready and capable of adding all the new patients under national health coverage.
It’s like they think FDL has enormous powers, but only for destruction. Kind of like Satan.
What do you guys think about the idea of attaching a waiting-period penalty to the mandate instead of a fine? ie. If you are “required” to participate in the exchanges but you choose not to, then you will not be allowed to sign up for a time, perhaps a year or two. This would remove the objection that people could just wait until they got sick to buy insurance, and wouldn’t piss them off as much as a fine.
There is an amendment similar to this being submitted, but from what I hear it sounds too punitive, something like 5 years until you can buy insurance that covers pre-existing conditions.
If the Dems are losing seats it’s probably because the public doesn’t like the job they are doing. And tbh, I think that voter anger is going to be directed at incumbants in both parties.
Dear Jane,
I voted for Obama. It was the first time that I had voted in 40 years. I did not like the direction the country was headed in (down). The illusions that I carried during the campaign (change we can believe in!) are beginning to fade. My initial impulses were to blame the usual cast of characters – slimy politicians (Lieberman, Nelson, etc.), greedy Wall Street types, military industrial complex, wheeling and dealing Washington insiders and lobbyists, the shameless and highly irresponsible Republican Party, my favorite scumbag – President George W. Bush, etc…
You hear people say that the problems in America run deep. That is very true. After much reflection, I have concluded that ALL of America’s problems are rooted in something very basic. Whenever you see 3 American citizens gathered together in a room at The White House, Senate Building, The Congress, Wall Street corporate suites, on TV, at home, you can bet that one of them is a complete fucking idiot. The funny thing is that it doesn’t matter who they are or what they are. One of them is going to be a complete fucking idiot.
Once you realize this, it can have a calming effect. My father use to say that there are two types a people in the world – Those that get fucked and those that do the fuckin’. With one third of the American population like a woman who is blissfully unaware that she is being gang raped while comatose on ruffies, its easy to see how change may come more slowly if at all.
I have an idea for turning this country around. I would like to open a health clinic that offers free sterilization to anyone that can “properly” answer 3 questions:
Was George W. Bush a good president? Y N
Would Sarah Palin make a good president? Y N
What color is Barack Obama? Y N
Try these questions with your friends and see what kind of response you get. Remember, if they are Americans, one out of three will answer “Yes” to all three questions.
The DLC wants and needs to get clobbered in the mid-terms. The Democratic super majority is a problem and an embarrassment for them. They need to re-balance the political duopoly scam and get back to blaming the Republicans for everything. Remember, the DLC is no more interested in governing than the Republicans.
Sorry I missed this thread in real time.
This is the crux of the matter, Synoia and the basis for all that we have seen in the past year.
What Prof. Krugman tries to sneak through unchallenged here is that this administration, unlike the one before it, is not genuinely corrupt which is, of course, the *big* lie. This administration is genuinely corrupt.
Prof. Krugman *is* a farging hypocrite. I just can’t figure out if it’s the subconscious blindness of self interest or blatant corruption to advance his own agenda.
Good luck, buddy. Here’s my worry about my soon-to-be medicare eligible friend Ben. He’s a musician and a good one. I don’t think he can pop for a medicare supplemental policy. I fear he won’t get treatment for his skin cancer cuz providers won’t accept Medicare all by itself. He’ll have huge out of pocket expenses that Medicare won’t cover. He’s already put this off for almost a year. Scary.
Qu’elle surprise.