GOP.2010: The anti-corporation, anti-bailout, pro-public option party.

the public/private competition health care model is a neoliberal, NOT progressive, policy (not saying i wouldn’t have supported a version of it as a compromise though). 5 years ago i would have said, wrongly it turns out, that republicans would be more likely than democrats to propose such a thing.

The Republicans are playing this perfectly, they can attack Obama from the right (tax hikes!), center (weak!) or left (corporate welfare!).

Speaking of GOP maneuvers, in 2006 when Bush and Senate Republicans were trying to immigration reform through, House blocked Senate bill by threatening to “blue slip” (see explanation below) it because revenue bills must start in the House. The Senate custom has been to get around thi constitutional requirement by attaching their revenue bills to non-germane tax bill that the House had already passed and sent over (the Senate healthcare bill started out as a House bill related to veterans housing).

So, instead of letting the Senate hold the House hostage on every bill with a filibuster threat, why doesn’t the House grow a pair and start blue slipping any Senate revenue bill that isn’t germane to the underlying House bill its freeriding on? That’s something the House can do itself, however there is precedent for the House having a voice in establishing Senate procedures. The Budget Act of 1974 (passed by both Houses of Congress, of course) limits Senate debate on reconciliation bills to 20 hours (2 USC 601(e)(2)). Not that the Senate would agree to it (but there’s no compromise if there’s not first a disagreement), but the House leadership needs to start asserting its co-equal status instead of being the student council answering to the Senate school principal. Every bill, large or small, add an amendment to use the Budget Act rule for all future legislation (the Senate could keep the filibuster for presidential appointees if it wished).

If the Senate, either intentionally or inadvertently, originates a revenue-raising bill, any Member of the House has the option of calling up a “blue-slip resolution” (named after the color of paper it is printed on after passage) to send the measure back to the Senate. The resolution gets immediate consideration as a matter of constitutional privilege, is debatable for an hour and is not subject to amendment (though it may be tabled or referred to committee).
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?doc_id=196065&fuseaction=topics.publications&group_id=180829&topic_id=1412

You know the parties have completely changed positions at least once in history. Perhaps another change is in train.

And I must say that it’s much easier to make the case against the bill than to make the case for it, as Shadegg demonstrates.

I assume everyone knows that the mandate comes directly from Hillarycare.

Who knows, maybe if the GOP is desperate enough to run a genuinely populist campaign (and they will be if Obama repeats his earlier fundraising exploits), maybe they’ll have no choice but to embrace liberal policies. Which they will not call liberal, only common sense apple pie American pragmatism or something like that, but…

I didn’t know that. When that was happening, I didn’t pay much attention to policy until there was an outcome, like legislation passed. So I know nothing of the details of what she was working on because it never happened. Do you have a place I could read up?

It wouldn’t surprise me if one or more of these retiring Repubs sneak on over to give the bill a boost if it looks in danger of failing.

This is SUCH an anchor around the Democrats necks; I can’t seek Repubs passing up this golden opportunity to hand them with it.

wow…a GOP Progressive who is saying what we’ve been saying all along…
as for “the person who gave us NAFTA……”…..ding…ding…ding…the one and only snake in the grass RAHM EMMANUEL…but that should come as no surprise.

I didn’t know that either, unless when leftdcin72 is talking about Hillycare he means the version in the primaries. I do know she was for mandates and Obama opposed them in the primaries. But I didn’t recall there being mandates in 1993/4 either. But my memory is hazy at best these days.

The Republican party has consistently been the War Party, starting with Lincoln.

True, however, “Hillary Care” also included a public option.

Both parties are war parties. The only diff is that Ds think you should bomb them for humanitarian reasons too.

Ah, the primaries. I forgot that.

great! Now the Republicans sound like they have more common sense than the Ds…the bill is simply indefensible. Good comments above.

PS. THANKS Rahm….

(and they will be if Obama repeats his earlier fundraising exploits)

I think there’s going to be a serious fall-off in the “small contributor” base of Obama/Dems.

I was going through my credit card bills for last year [for tax purposes] and was startled to see how much we gave to various Democratic entities. [Not a gigantic amount in absolute dollars, but a noticeable amount in our budget.]

There’s not a DIME that’s going to those folks in 2010. $$$ to an occasional, individual “good Progressive” candidate, but not much else. I have to believe there are a lot of folks out there just like us.

I’ve got a husband and two young-adult kids who were all contributors, so that’s four of us who won’t be responding to those e-mails. And when I add up the dozens of “friends” to whom I sent or forwarded pleas — that ain’t gonna happen either.

Of course with those insurance co, drug co and other dollars flowing in to the Democratic coffers, they probably won’t notice my piddling pennies. But they’d better use those $$$ to walk some precincts, man phone banks, stuff envelopes and other “support stuff,” ’cause that action ain’t coming from here either.

All Parties have been War Parties.
All states are fundamentally organizations for the accumulation of security, which is the ability to successfully fight wars. States fight wars, because that is what they are organized to do-political parties are organizations designed to control organizations that are designed to fight wars.
They are all war parties, imvho.

I believe I owe you a beverage.

Please don’t be offended but O probably does not give a ff about your donations, and Rahm will be papering over the shortfall down the line with his corp checkbook.

Good idea. Some herbal tea. My sinus infection is hanging on in a low grade way.

(brewing tea for eCAHN)

War is the creed of the Republican Party.

Visit the Union League in downtown Philly, a block down from City Hall. In a room on the second floor are portraits of Presidents, starting with Lincoln. The fact is, only Republicans are included. Nixon’s portrait is there, but not FDR or JFK.

smooches

STARK: Congressman, you’re making the progressive argument here.
SHADDEG: I’m with the progressives on this one!

Interesting that some of the visitors to FDL claim anyone against the Obama (Gruber) administration approach is making liberals and progressives look bad but the Republicans seem to be looking forward to using this issue on the Democrats. They’re so euphoric they’re already practicing their speeches before the document is signed.

Also note that the general FDL position is more or less the “progressive” position according the the speakers. A bit wider net than just being in the FDL crowd.

Yeah, I know. Everyone’s a progressive when they’re not in a position to do anything about it. When they are, we’re just the hippies they point and laugh at.

Yep. Pretty much says it all. The Democrats are no more bought off than the Republicans, and possibly less.

Something I’d like to introduce as an idea for future Blue America candidates is for people to ask themselves “what tells me that this person will support progressive causes when he/she is elected?” That’s an important question. The answer can vary, but there has to be something. My SnS Blue slate were all people I thought demonstrated, in some way, that they were the kinds of people we could count on. Eric Massa, Darcy Burner, and Sam Bennett were on the list because they supported that “out of Iraq” plan early on, before it was politically popular. Diane Benson was there because her life history and her motivation to run (her son’s disabilities brought on by his service in Iraq). Andrew Rice had a legislative record in the OK senate.

Anyway, the people who have been elected from that list have seldom disappointed me. Mine’s a much smaller sample, but I think this is still a good principle to apply.

Jeezus. I need a drink.

There wasn’t. A mandate is the only way to achieve universal coverage.

Just because they made a mistake in their war prez gallery is not proof that only Rs start wars. You can argue about the skirmishes under JFK I suppose, though he would be considered pretty militant in foreign policy by today’s standards, but there’s no way LBJ doesn’t belong on that wall. And while Carter didn’t muck about too much, it is the Carter Doctrine that the U.S. will defend its Middle East oil militarily. He just never got the chance to effect the Carter Doctrine.

Health care, spending, foreign policy, and even to some extent terrorism will not matter much in 2010. It’s all about the economy. If the economy is improving by spring/summer the Democrats will be in decent shape. If the economy is still shedding jobs, they’re screwed.

I assume that you know Orahma fought tooth and nail against mandates.

He didn’t increase defense spending soon enough.

4 more here. My local House District candidate is getting all my election dollars this year.

Does the “he” in your comment refer to Carter? He had overwhelming domestic problems, the Nixon legacy, and didn’t juggle all the balls well. Hmmm. Something familiar in that.

I just got a call from Neighbor to Neighbor asking me, because of my work and support for President Obama in the last election, to make calls on behalf of Martha Coakley. Here’s my answer: “Kiss my ass!”.

I will not continue to work for and support a party that doesn’t use its power to advance the change we’d been promised by electing this president. I won’t do this for a party whose leadership is afraid of making examples out of turncoat obstructionists like Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson. I won’t support a party that bailed out on the public option.

As far as I’m concerned, “60 votes” hasn’t done any more for Progressives than having 51 or 58. Based on what’s going on in Massachusetts, I have a feeling I’m not alone in my thinking.

Wow! Good for Stark! Great job!

Yes. I was opposed to his increase in defense spending for that reason. I was attempting to be ironic, but it’s also a fact. He didn’t increase spending until FY79, IIRC. There was no way that would have affected the military in time for it to be able to rescue the hostages.

You have to wonder about a strategy for health care reform that encourages people that can’t afford it to pay a fine in lieu of getting it. I thought we were concerned about covering everybody. Oh yeh, everybody is covered, they just have to be on the verge of death to get it.

Cujo359:
Interesting that some of the visitors to FDL claim anyone against the Obama (Gruber) administration approach is making liberals and progressives look bad but the Republicans seem to be looking forward to using this issue on the Democrats. They’re so euphoric they’re already practicing their speeches before the document is signed.

Oh pleeze, Bre’r Fox! Don’t throw me into that Briar patch!

Most health insurance in America requires that you remain healthy in order for you to benefit from it. If you ever get sick, you’re out of luck, in most cases. The exception is what Congresscritters have for life.

It is my feeling that Coakley’s defeat in MA would help rather than hinder the Democratic Party. First, it would serve as an undeniably ugly example of what their present course of political choices will get them in 2010 and it will also provide them the opportunity to consider operating the senate in a more democratic fashion. We all know that very good things could have come of HCR if the senate accepted the reality of 50 + Biden votes.

The economy hasn’t had to shed jobs for quite a while in order for the economy to be screwed. Each month for the last ten years there needed to be around 250,000 just to tread water against the percentage of the population reaching employment age. Right now 300,000 a month for the next 10 years won’t put things where they were.
Numbers that include counting government employees that received a raise as being exactly the same as a new job created won’t change the economy.

Number of new jobs created in the last 10 years: zero. Add in the number of people that make significantly less than they used to and things look so bright we all need shades.

I do hope you’re calling your Senators and/or reps though. I know it probably doesn’t mean a damned thing, but I called AGAIN today (poor Linda at Senator Webb’s office) and pointed out just how badly this is playing with a lot of folks. A lot of folks who could be counted on to vote D.

Like I said, I know it probably means nothing, but do it anyway, OK? Call tomorrow. I’m calling Warner tomorrow. (lol, Linda and I are on first name basis now).

Same plea to ALL who’s reading. Take 5 minutes tomorrow and call your Senator(s) and tell them how badly this is being received BY DEMOCRATS. (Although I do refuse to call myself that anymore). Who knows, maybe by some miracle of miracles…..

Well, if you are spending money to pay for something you don’t use, then some could argue that even the healthy are out of luck in the USA. We can be comforted, however, that the healthy will have a much lower probability of going bankrupt.

Plus, remember all the hardware programs that began under Carter? The F-117. The Tomahawk. The Abrams tank. The Apache helicopter. The MX missile. The Seawolf submarine, I believe, also began under Carter.

I’ve asked many of the people who argued this by what calculus they thought that failing to pass a bad bill would be worse for the Democrats than passing one and being blamed for the consequences. I have yet to read or hear a sensible answer. I’m just told that I’m too frickin’s stupid to have an opinion worth listening to, unlike all the “experts” they cite.

Carter was no peacenik. I think he valued and wanted peace, but he wasn’t shy about making the military stronger, nor using it when the situation seemed to warrant it.

I don’t have a head for military hardware, but now that you’ve pointed it out, I’ll remember that Carter was big on big hardware. He was, after all, an Annapolis grad and those military guys gotta have their toys.

Thanks for the tea. It’s hitting the spot.

Agreed. Killing a bad bill is better than passing a bad bill, imo. It’s the Hippocratic Oath applied to governing.

In this regard, why isn’t Firedoglake covering the Coakley/Brown race in MA. Voters will have a golden opportunity to kick Dems in the butt and register their opposition to HCR..It will be a wake up call if Coakley loses, and will reveal more to come. People feel very unempowered with all wheeler dealer back door stuff..All they have left are their votes.

Carter… wasn’t shy about making the military stronger, nor using it when the situation seemed to warrant it.

Which makes him normal, as he was the leader of an organization designed to fight wars. A State.

Not all military hardware as he cancelled the B1 Bomber, which of course, infuriated the Right wing.

You’re welcome. There’s more in the teapot, if you’d like more.
(((eCAHN)))

The best rational defense I’ve heard of the bill is that a lot more people of modest income do get covered.

Yeah, I get told that a lot too. It may well be true in my case, but the same can’t be said for all the folks that blog on here and that comment in the comments section.

I think Jane’s pretty smart. And Jon. And DD. And EW. And ALL of ‘em. And that doesn’t even touch the commenters.

I’ve said and done plenty of stupid things in my life, but I just really feel confident that this isn’t one of them. This bill really IS worse than no bill, because it IMO kills once and for all any hope of real reform since it thoroughly entrenches the totally unnecessary middle-man blood sucking leeches for-profit insurance assholes industry. It takes the issue OFF the front burner for at least a decade by not even kicking in for 4 years, AND it makes those blood sucking assholes insurance companies even stronger and harder to beat when we do want “real reform.” By passing NO bill, the issue remains, the demand for change remains, and I know damned well that even THIS Congress can pass a better smelling pile of shit than this one. They just need to be kicked in the ass encouraged to do so.

It is not parties that are responsible for war, nor is it soldiers. It is states, and the people who live in them who accept such concepts as sovereignty, that are responsible for war.

War is what monkies do.

Love the video. You can hear the amazement in Mike’s voice: “Sir, you’re making the progressive argument here!”
This also illustrates another point: the real battle here is not left vs. right, but corporatist versus people-ist.

There’s also some very good funding for community clinics too. It also makes a good amount of preventive care available at little or in most cases no cost, something that is actually penny and pound sensible.

There are some good features in it. But the bad far outweighs the good IMO, especially when IMO it really does entrench the insurance industry and strengthens them so well that it’ll be impossible to ever get rid of them or regulate them with real teeth. And ultimately, that’s the only way real reform will ever happen.

Bit late here…
eChan try a saline nasal flush. It really works and cleans out the nasal sinuses… There are many OT products but you can make your own withe sea salt & baking powder & warm water (filtered or sterile) twice a week….

States were organized to “Keep the peace or in British terms The King’s Peace”(Churchill: The English Speaking peoples).

Got any references to states being organized solely to fight wars.

Got the saline spritz (ODed on the chemical kind about 2 or 3 decades ago & someone pointed out the saline was just as good and didn’t irritate the nasal mucosa), and am doing the steam breathing thing too.

Maybe. If they can afford the co-pays & deductibles.

Monkies fight wars, and humans, just a scintilla of difference, have discovered that organizing into states makes it possibile to conduct much grander wars than the monkies do.

There’s always that, and that’s an aspect that hasn’t been publicized enough.

This bill really IS worse than no bill, because it IMO kills once and for all any hope of real reform since it thoroughly entrenches the totally unnecessary middle-man blood sucking leeches for-profit insurance assholes industry. It takes the issue OFF the front burner for at least a decade by not even kicking in for 4 years, AND it makes those blood sucking assholes insurance companies even stronger and harder to beat when we do want “real reform.” By passing NO bill, the issue remains, the demand for change remains, and I know damned well that even THIS Congress can pass a better smelling pile of shit than this one. They just need to be kicked in the ass encouraged to do so.

I Agree Totally! Any bill that mandates the private citizen to buy insurance protection from a private Corporation without a “Public Health Care System” option is unconstitutional!!

If there is no “Public Option” Kill The Bill Baby .. Kill The Bill!!

Dr. Gwynne Dyer, War, Chapter 7, The Army, the State, and the People: Power Cofounded. Don’t know if it’s available online, except in snippets.

Wrong…. A lot more people of modest income are forced to buy a crappy good for nothing product or be labeled criminals and fined by the enforcement arm of the Health Care Insurance industry (IRS). These bills are corporate written pieces of shit that need to be completely scrapped. Any democrat that thinks they can sell tax payers this piece of shit legislation needs to be sent packing because they’re a pea brained moron. F U Rahm… I hope you

This “blue slip” approach seems to be the very measure the House should employ and send the Senate bill packing. From what you say if no revenue raising measure can be contained independently in a Senate proposal then this would nullify the Senate bill and send it to purgatory where it belongs.

Also, Obama would get the rebuffing he deserves for being complicit in the Senate boondogle to the private insurance industry and be seen for the shill that he is. Maybe then either the unadulterated House bill, flawed as it is, can be the framework for HCR legislation now, or the whole health reform effort is scrapped and resuscitated next year.

Of course we are not even taking into account the idiotic mandate provision whose opposition seems to be hardening across the entire political spectrum.

The Republicans are sounding like progressives and the Dems are getting clobbered out there!

Constitutional and civil liberties arguments , national outrage ( heavily tapped by the tea partiers …. not you eCahn…), this horrendous health legislation combined with Obama’s endlessly broken promises to be “progressive” if elected will bury the house members and a number of Senators up for re election in November .
Remember this one ?

Oops …national outrage over the bailouts that is .

The time is ripe for actual third party challenges . Libertarians and dependents joined progressives or stayed home in electing Obama which is why he did so well i9n the last elections !
That is not going to happen again for the democrats this cycle unless the progressive caucus shows some spine and defeats this bill in the house !

Absolutely right ! Which is why a third party IS viable this election cycle IMO.

Gee, one cuppa tea and I’m a tea partier. Next thing you know, some author is gonna call me a right wing troll.

Patty Murray and Russ Feingold ,personal favorites of mine, are both up for re election in 2010 and with the likely decision from scotus on citizens united versus federal elections commission the flow of corporate money into the trace will be a disaster .

Well yes. This bill, with all it’s flaws (thanks to men such as Joe Lieberman and Rahm Emmanuel), makes for great Republican get-out-the-vote material.

What was Joe Lieberman thinking? Gee, this bill only has a few big flaws, there’s no way I’ll vote for it unless far more outrageous flaws are added to the bill.

The real answer is to declare healthcare to be national infrastructure and support it with a single payer system. But we can’t even talk about that.

LOL !
Me I smoke my tea eCAHN, avoids the ambiguity .

As a resident of a solid red district (GA-7) in a solid red state, that would be time and effort wasted, which is big reason why my money tends to go out-of-state, where it can make a difference. I also know that the bulk of whatever I can do this year will be committed to helping any primary challenger to Blanche Lincoln. For me, the stakes are too high at this moment in history for the Democratic party to continue to show weakness, and to have disdain for the demands of their constituents.

Shadegg, an R, makes the anti-mandate case clearly, concisely and without hesitation. And it’s going to play perfectly into the rising populist outrage against corporate bailouts amid individual hardship.

What a hash Obama has made of his election and majorities.

Apparently it is Palin who really knows how to play 11 dimensional aikido chess. The Democratic party has managed to put itself right where she wants it.

11 dimensional aikido chess.

I am so going to steal that, with your permission of course.

Close the service center. That’s what will register. No canvassing, door-to-door, pamphlets, volunteering in the office, phone banks.

As an AZ resident all I can charitably say ’bout ol’ Shadegg is…

Good riddence – AZ and the US will be much better off without you. And don’t let the door knob hit you in the ass on the way out…

HCR is beginning to remind me of TARP. Rewarding the criminals …screwing US.

Meanwhile more billions needed to fund the illegal wars that even repubs are losing interest in. When the US is going to hell in a hand basket, it gets discouraging to plop all of our borrowed money into wars for oil and Israel.

It was different at the beginning when WE were a little flush from the Clinton years. Now..not so much.

What was Joe thinking? Anything that I can do to destroy America and make some money for myself. Along with most of the rest of our esteemed leaders.

We should give some thought as to how our leaders can go to DC from relatively modest backgrounds and become multi millionaires. bill clinton and dick cheney come to mind.

Whether it is a library or halliburton , they certainly can make a fast buck.

SHADDEG: Well, you could better defend a public option than you could defend compelling me to buy a product from the people that have created the problem. America’s health insurance industry has wanted this bill and the individual mandate from the get go. That’s their idea. Their idea is “look, our product is so lousy, that lots of people don’t buy it. So we need the government to force people to buy our product. And stunningly, that’s what the Congress appears to be going along with. Why would they do that?

My hero.

“The Republicans are playing this perfectly, they can attack Obama from the right (tax hikes!), center (weak!) or left (corporate welfare!).”

Ironically, they would be, for once, correct!

Yay! I guessed who the bottom link was for before I clicked it, what do I win? The prize shouldn’t be too grand, it was kinda easy since it’s All Rahm/All the time these days (FireRahmLake? I just copyrighted that, btw…).
Seriously, Jane. I know he’s greedy, Machiavellian little scumbag, but couldn’t you just, like, cock-punch him at the next WH presser, or something?
Have someone take a picture! That shit would be photobomb GOLD!
Stay on Timmeh’s ass, though. That parasite & his friends need to GTFO of Washington…

The Democratic party today is further right than it was during the 90s. Obama is to the right of Clinton’s DLC.

But of course.

Anything I can contribute to advancing the progressive football…
So Lucy can pull it away again.

So this is the pattern, from here ’til collapse: The Democrats take over until they blow it, then the Republicans take over until they blow it, then the Democrats again, then the Republicans again…

do you mean the “republican wing” of the party?

maybe I am confused, but I have been operating under the assumption that we have a One-Party system here in the US, but that it has 2 wings: the “democratic’ capitalists & the “republican” capitalists…

Is that not correct?

OMG! Shadegg is my rep. This is the very first time I agree with him. I guess it goes to show that prayer does affect change. One down, two to go.

Exactly my argument OFG. Glad to see it stated so succinctly.

The problem is the run-away, big-brother, nanny-state government
that is responsive to the Corporate Big Money, not the voters.
The Republicans love the Massive Federal Government for their wars of foreign interventions.
The Democrats love the Massive Federal Government for their one-size-fits-all social programs.
It’s all unconstitutional as there are only 23 enumerated powers given to the Congress.
Let the revolution begin.

Leaving aside the fact that your comment about “Hillarycare”, while perhaps technically correct, is woefully incomplete and misses the major differences between the plans in toto, what’s your point?

No one I know is against mandates per se. They are against mandates that come without a robust and open-to-all public option that makes the system on of the commons rather than one of profit for the skimmer industries like big insurance.

Whether Hillary Clinton’s plan included mandates is entirely irrelevant to the current debate.

Carter had Nixon’s domestic problems and legacy.With a touch of the jealous Ted Kennedy and the Democrat Senate Klan that triped the Carter addminstration that started the ball bounceing dragging the American Citizen to jobs without benifits cuts in pay don’t worrie the middle class will pay for your Insurance and food stamps.Who wants a good paying job.The selfesteam, taxes your able to pay or the ablity to grow your retirement.Who really wants a good paying job where you produce goods we use every day.China does such a good job at that.

One party with two right wings. Correct.