Marcy Wheeler was just on MSNBC talking to David Shuster about her work uncovering Jonathan Gruber’s government contracts. We’ll have video shortly.
Yesterday, Paul Krugman defended Jonathan Gruber’s failure to disclose his consulting contract by saying:
Gruber’s grant is from HHS, not the West Wing; it’s basically the same kind of thing as, say, an epidemiologist receiving a grant from the National Institutes of Health. You wouldn’t ordinarily say that this tarnishes the epidemiologist’s credentials as an independent analyst on infectious diseases, unless you want to say that nobody receiving a research grant can be considered independent.
But last night Gruber appeared on The News Hour, and here’s how Gwen Ifil introduced him:
“For more on the pros and the cons of the so-called Cadillac tax, we turn to Jonathan Gruber, a health economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology — he is also a paid consultant to the Obama administration — and Josh Bivens, an economist at the Economic Policy Institute, a think tank that receives some money from labor groups.”
I guess when Gruber’s contract called for him to render “technical assistance” on “the President’s health reform proposal,” that’s what it meant.
Ron Brownstein’s article in late November contained Gruber’s evaluation of the Senate health care bill, to the effect that “you couldn’t have done better than they are doing.” Gruber told Brownstein that “it’s really hard to figure out how to bend the cost curve, but I can’t think of a thing to try that they didn’t try…everything is in here.”
Of course, as Jon Walker noted at the time, that’s a laughable claim. The CBO determined that the public option — which Gruber waves off as “much ado about little” — would have saved $110 billion. Mandating that Medicare providers take part in the public option? Another $91 billion. Medicare reimbursement rates would have saved another $50 billion.
Drug reimportation would’ve saved consumers another $100 billion over ten years at the very least, but that wasn’t part of the White House’s sweetheart PhRMA deal and thus not in the bill. Neither was negotiation for Medicare prescription drug prices. At one point Krugman himself called the 2003 Medicare Modernization Act, which prohibited such negotiation, “a deeply irresponsible bill that included huge giveaways to drug and insurance companies.” In the same article he said “a plan without a public option to hold down insurance premiums would cost taxpayers more than a plan with such an option.”
Maybe Krugman is right and Gruber’s imagination would have been equally constrained if he had not been a White House consultant. But when Krugman says “it’s hard to think of who else could be doing the work better” than Gruber, he may be overlooking a few things himself in order to defend his own part in “the progressive backlash against the progressive backlash.”




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Morning Jane, Is there any light at the end of the tunnel on how to finance the senate bill and any movement toward the more progressive elements included in the house bill but not in the Senate bill?
Heh heh. Well done EW, DDay, Jon, & Jane! Who was it over at The Seminal the other day that suggested that FDL was not a powerful blog? I guess getting the attention of the NYT, WaPo, and The News Hour and changing the frame of the debate oughta count for something, don’t you? ; )
Go get ‘em kids — keep these highly paid political consultants honest. First Lanny Davis, now Gruber. Bravo!
A two sentence dissection of what the health care bill is, from Eric Massa:
Wet cement says it all.
Thank Dog for dvr’s – just hit rewind and there was Marcy – hitting on all cylinders . . . and looking fabulous btw
Shuster clearly cares about getting the truth out there – wait til y’all see – mwaah!
there are rumblings that some kind of ‘compromise’ has been reached with Labor – not that that would make HCR all that progressive but we shall see
Good to catch them lighting a fire, but so long as they can continue to throw fires at us, directing our attention on their terms, we’re going to continue to see crap policy like the individual mandate, no public option, and the most expensive drugs on the planet thrown at us faster and faster.
Health care “reform” is but a touchstone to the greater nefarious forces at work usurping democracy.
after watching the video, it’s amazing to me
all of a sudden, when talking about raising tax on the middle class, it’s not “raising taxes” it’s “removing tax breaks”
but that framing NEVER happens when talking about reclaiming middle class assets by “rescinding tax breaks for the wealthy”, whenever THAT’S discussed it’s “tax the wealthy”
and then they used the CLEARLY flawed metric, “the worker will get compensation instead of excessive coverage”
we are in a DOWNWARD pressure on wage, that differance will NOT be recovered until we are on an UPWARD pressure on wage
PLUS even if he were right, (he’s clearly not), that supposed increase he’s talking about WOULD be taxed at the federal level
THAT means his proposal even if correct means that these people get taxed twice
I caught Marcy and Shuster, too – guess MSNBC has gotten over the “bj” comment. She did a great job of pointing out why the Gruber situation matters-and Shuster even asked questions we don’t often hear from other msm’ers.
This post, comparing Gruber’s “can’t think of another thing to do” with just a few of the things he couldn’t think of, is also to the point.
I don’t much care about Gruber, but I do care about all this circular citation of him and by him and by everybody else on issues like the excise tax, drug costs, and basic assumptions about human behavior in regard to health care.
Gotta look good when yer bitch-slappin’ morons around.
Well researched, Ms Hamsher! Krugman is an enigma on this one!
oh and what a mealy-mouth wet noodle mr.800,000.00 dollar man is
im puzzled…….mebbe the prize went to his haiiiiiiiiid
Is it better for Firedoglake or Rahmbama to define the left edge?
Thank you Jane and Firedoglake. If it wasn’t for you guys and a few others on the toobz I would have been putting 100% of my efforts into stocking Spam and ammo long ago…
heh, I know what you mean
a few, possibly dumb, questions i forgot to ask yesterday on krugman’s statement:
1. doesn’t gruber have a contract to consult, not a grant for research?
2. when an epidemiologist gets a research grant from nih, wouldn’t that typically be done by a peer review competitive process where the peers reviewing the grant application would not be known to the epidemiologist?
if the answers to the above questions are “yes” then krugman’s analogy is false. it’s not the same thing at all.
Gwen Ifil is one of the most worthless, shameless pieces of shit in all of the MSM.
If you remove the chip from your shoulder and put some drops in that one jaundiced eye, it’s very easy to understand and see what he means by there’s nothing to try that they didn’t try. All along he was speaking directly to what was possible to be passed by the Senate, not just about the myriad things that could have made it a better bill. The Senate is corrupt and moderate at best (and the House not much better). When you accept that reality and quit attacking the people who helped get the best that could be gotten, that is the beginning of adulthood. Please go through the grieving steps to get there, cause now you’re stuck on anger and denial. Please do keep agitating for better healthcare and other progressive policies, but please check your juvenile tantrums at the door before entering. You and your site have become a bit of an embarassment.
Krugman needs to address the fact that Gruber is a paid consultant who has allowed his work for the Obama administration to be used in advancing the administration’s health care agenda without open acknowledgement of the “ties” ($$$) between Gruber and the administration.
I’ve also made it clear that I consider the best hope at this point to be that no health care “reform” is produced, because the only available legislation is, largely, a massive giveaway to the health insurance and pharmaceutical cartels, and, largely, a disaster for everyone else. That is, unless you want to be in the position of giving Aetna whatever they feel like charging you on pain of collection action by the IRS.
Finally, with respect to the excise tax itself, I just can’t wrap my head around the idea of forcing people to buy health insurance products by law, with no meaningful regulation, and no public alternative … and then taxing the people who buy the best insurance products based on the cost of those products. It’s like passing a law requiring everyone to buy 10 pounds of beef per person in the household, because this benefits the beef industry, and then taxing those who buy the leanest ground beef or filet mignon based on the higher prices of those forms of beef.
I would not mind this bill if they took out the mandate.
I think that makes it a workable bill that we can fix
great analysis there selise!
there’s really no inigma, it seems krugman defends fellow academics and economists, for instance he actually defends bernanke
she looked serious and extremely kewl – I could care less, but being we’re talking about the teevee machine, optics matter
oldnslow and I have had the pleasure and honor of shaking her hand – looks like someone wanting to sell ya some girlscout cookies – still makes us chuckle to think of the innumerable ‘very serious’ souls who no doubt have fallen in to that trap:D
I was surprised to see Paul jump into this fight, but now that he’s in it, I think we have to recognize that he has been an ally of ours on many of the issues and battles we have fought over the last decade. He may not agree with us on this issue, but I want to caution against responding to Paul in the way you might respond to some other people who disagree with us. He has earned the right to a respectful argument over any disagreement, and I hope you all see that.
Yeah, I’m just a lurker, but I’m reading, and this is a moment for some quiet reserve, not a knife fight.
Here’s an important take-away.
Marcy has been trying to get the conversation on affordability for the middle class addressed. I had not heard anything addressing this on the NewsHour until this interview. That is a direct result of FDL. Discussing affordability has never been a polemic discussion either. No one would give a voice to the question of affordability until now.
Ascribing the question of affordability as a polemic argument is a poor and unprofessional perspective…moving on.
Gruber’s “clarified” introduction. A direct result of Marcy and FDL.
The MSM media waking up to understand that the bill can be better, covering the poor as well as not making the middle class take a huge hit. Priceless.
Thank you Marcy and FDL.
“the best that could be gotten” = 1/16 step forward, 10 steps back
I believe that, in reality, the only reason any legislation is moving forward at all is to create, specifically, a mandate that we all buy health insurance products, and that pharmaceutical products are price-protected against competition by re-importation prohibition and by extension of the patent monopolies enjoyed by pharmaceutical manufacturers. Furthermore, specifically, the goals behind the legislation also include insufficiently or not-at-all reducing costs of health care in any way that would interfere with enhancing the profits margins for the health insurance and pharmaceutical cartels.
The corrupt, corrupt officials driving this legislation would rather let it die than take out the mandate. They would rather let the legislation die than to try to reduce profits by real cost control.
Dorgan had the 60 votes to pass drug reimportation. Reid kept it off the floor seven days until PhRMA could whip the votes to kill it.
So, no. The “it couldn’t be better because there weren’t 60 votes in the Senate” is pure hogwash.
Playing devil’s advocate, after a fashion, it might possible to read the position presented by Krugman saying “it’s hard to think of who else could be doing the work better” to assume he meant that pragmatically. If one knows that the administration has a built in bias to only alow their own views to be echoed back to them then Gruber, as an architect of the solution they wanted in the first place was the best choice for the job. When an group doesn’t allow dissenting opinions they will alway reach the solution they sought.
Also how many epidemiologist immediately go to the WH to meet with Orzag for almost 2 hours before the ink on their contract is even dry? Not to mention Orzag deceitfully touting up Gruber as independent verification when Orzag knows Gruber is on the admin’s payroll.
Quiet reserve sounds too much like acquiescence to me.
I’ve been saying all along: Obama will offer labor a “deal” to raise the threshold on the excise tax on employer-provided policies if labor SECRETLY drops EFCA. This is consistent with the fact that Obama only negotiates AGAINST his base and never for it. The unions can declare a victory and boast that they have real influence with the administration, and the rank-and-file can keep voting Democratic (since for the present their insurance won’t be taxed), and EFCA will disappear. It won’t take long for the cost of employer-provided premiums to rise, exceeding the new threshold, and soon Blue-Collar Bobs like myself will have to pay the excise tax, which Obama wanted in the first place.
In other words, the tax will be simply delayed, but it will be inevitable in the near future because the bill does not fix the real problem: the rising price of private insurance policies.
Was it ever determined what really happened re: pressure by ObamaRahma on FDA/Hamburg to issue a letter after Dorgan was told no such letter existed?
glad your here,havent received “poodles” back,hoping you got them!
“He may not agree with us on this issue, but I want to caution against responding to Paul in the way you might respond to some other people who disagree with us.”
Ah, by Krugman is one of the “people who disagree with us” and not only that but Krugman went after FDL.
And what are you trying to say?
although I am cynical enough never to be surprised by the deals/compromises made – I just don’t see Labor tabling EFCA – Hoffa and IBEW have made some noise that would indicate their willingness to do so, but I just don’t see Trumka, and esp Gerard giving it up
we give him kudos,when he is RIGHT,a few brickbats are due ,when he is being condescending imo
Just caught Marcy on the news. Whoop! Great job EW!
An aside, since I probably am known most around here for nonsense asides or, not-so-nonsensical observations, depending…
I couldn’t escape the stunning impact of that screen grab with that highly touted professional sitting there before the nation in his cuddly warm and ever-so comforting, Mr Rogers sweater.
nice try, rahm, but no sale. i still see, feel, your shadow in the background, and it’s more than a little creepy.
Keep up the good work Jane. We’re sitting up and wagging at the screen. Kobe is here in spirit. ;->
Thanks for the well reasoned explanation as to why the same information can result in differing conclusions among people. Once we can sift out that only adults are capable of compromising other people’s goals away and getting precious little in return it all becomes clear. Republicans must therefore be more mature than most Democrats who are in turn more adult-like than silly liberals. I have got to share this with my my friends. We’ve been doing this all wrong.
Sorry to disappoint you gramps.
spot on…….ya can buy teh zillion cashmere sweaters with 800 thousand smackeroooooooos deeeeeeeeeeeescus…….ting
Nice analogy. My contention is that it is meant to save the government money and to allow unregulated insurers to make more of it. That it yields less health care per family seems to be a feature, not a bug. So much for this government’s efforts to avoid “rationed” health care.
I was livid at Bush when he hired lobbyists to regulate their own industry. Obama has done him one better. As in banking, he is letting insurers design their own “reforms”. Government capture, anyone?
LOL!
Absolutely! Kudos to all.
i have buyers remorse
Someone ought to ask Krugman,if the WH has asked him…..er paid him to run interference on the WH’s behalf.
I don’t take pedantic very well, so here’s something jejune for you:
[edited by mod for lack of comity]
I heard that from a teenager.
(“embarrassment!” …. mutters…)
It only works when competitors agree on the ground rules and much of the outcome expected from their fight. We haven’t seen much of that since LBJ passed civil rights legislation in the 1960′s.
“Quiet reserve” means you needn’t be paid attention to. That seems fairly obvious at this point, but it is the meme that the conflict averse Obama’s demeanor plays to. It is a strong tendency in the human heart, but one that predators – Washington’s full of them – abuse destructively.
Can’t WAIT for the Gruber defenders to appear here. Please folks, tell them to play that tape above. And highlight this quote, from the paid consultant to the Obama administration.Gruber, when defending the “Cadilac Tax”:
Let me repeat that, OK??
That’s right pups. The paid consultant of Hopey Changey believes the problem with health care costs is that some people have too good a plan. I guess the thinking is that without these “excessive” plans, people would forgo health care, and voila, savings?
Come on now, defend THAT!!!
So now we know why Single Payer was never considered. Cause if anything would be excessive, a single payer system covering ALL health care for ALL people must certainly be excessive.
Imagine that. Excessive health insurance. Insurance that covers too much health.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING, AND ANYONE SHILLING THIS BULLSHIT NEEDS TO BE CALLED ON IT.
Come on Gruber defenders, explain how our nation’s health care crisis is all due to some folks having “excessive insurance.” Can’t wait to hear the mental gymnastics that defense is going to take.
good to see ya – Happy New Year ! and I caught the sweater thing as well -lol
Not at all.
Ask him to come here and have a real discussion about it. He seems to be the type that could rise to the occasion and have an honest debate. Nothing wrong with having a disagreement among friends, as long as you maintain some respect.
I’d like to move the emphasis off Krugman, who is more complex than some comments give him credit for, because he and, ultimately Gruber, are distractions.
What’s in the legislation, who will it benefit, what can we do to shift that mix to avoid a complete rout of the public’s interest?
Unless of course, one employs it like Harry Reid, where the appearance of “quiet reserve” is just a cover for getting ready to shove a dagger into your kidney.
Is there a link for that?
Krugman is being disingenuous.
Gruber has had a influence that no epidemiologist, or 99% of other grant recipients, have ever had on public policy .
He knows better.
Anybody know?
more SHEEEE NANO GINS——————————————————
SEC granted “confidential treatment” last May
* Secrecy order stays in place until November 2018
By Matthew Goldstein
NEW YORK, Jan 11 (Reuters) – It could take until November 2018 to get the full story behind the U.S. bailout of insurance giant American International Group (AIG.N) because of an action taken last year by the Securities and Exchange Commission.
In May, the SEC approved a request by AIG to keep secret an exhibit to a year-old regulatory filing that includes some of the details on the most controversial aspect of the AIG bailout: the funneling of tens of billions of dollars to big banks like Societe Generale, Goldman Sachs (GS.N), Deutsche Bank (DBKGn.DE) and Merrill Lynch.
The SEC’s Division of Corporation Finance, in granting AIG’s request for confidential treatment, said the “excluded information” will not be made public until Nov. 25, 2018, according to a copy of the agency’s May 22 order.
The SEC said the insurer had demonstrated the information in the exhibit, called Schedule A, “qualifies as confidential commercial or financial information.”
The expiration date for the SEC order falls on the 10th anniversary of Federal Reserve of New York’s decision to provide emergency financing to an entity set up to specifically acquire some $60 billion in collateralized debt obligations from 16 banks in the United States and Europe.
[more]
Thank you so much! I LOVE my Kobe pin. I just love it.
Marginal tax rate on worker’s Cadillac plan above threshold: 40%
Marginal tax rate on hedge fund manager’s fee income: 15%
Marginal campaign contributions in 2010 from p.o.-ed progressives: 0
Heckuva job.
Thanks Jane, and the rest of the gang for exposing this Paid Shill. Actually, to me Gruber appears quite stupid. This is a classic neo-con anti-labor union plan and it includes stealing the “Very generous” health care from working people. If health care is a tax, the taxes should not go to privatized health care corporations. But BG, Before Gruber, Health Care was always considered a “benefit”, and not taxable income, such as vacations. Does the shill Gruber think paid vacations should be taxed.
We all know how “generous” companies can be. Increasing taxes and giving employees downsized health benefits DOES NOT logically imply increased wages. In fact it implies the opposite, lowered wages.
Speaking of taxes, I guess Gruber got some tax breaks using a “non-profit” dodge. I wonder how generous Gruber’s personal Health Insurance is?
Paid vacations are taxed. At least in the sense of the salary you receive while on vacation (I assume that’s what you meant by paid vacation), the salary received while on vacation appears on your W-2 and is treated as the exact same as all the other salary you earned in the year. With both FICA (SS & MC) and Income taxes being withheld.
AND we love and adore you…all the critters at
http://shaggydogfarms.com/
…….. working on a rescue in Ireland today of the wild horsies who need food…critterz rule!
yep. it takes me back to my school board days, trying to speak to power so-as influence the financing of public education in our state.
I: “[reasonable question, or a close approximation of same]”
Powerful PhooeyBah: “Why do you want to cause trouble?”
Decades later, financing of Ohio’s public schools still stands as “unconstitutional”, but reform sits as a dead issue, with even the OH Supremes refusing to rule further, much less work for progress.
Keep up the good work doggies. If you weren’t on the scent, the phooeybahs-of-this-day wouldn’t be squirming so much.
heh. good on ya.
Krugman may have a bone to pick with the NYTimes editors too.
Krugman is full of crap since:
- Econ is not real science
- They do not even have real nobels
- and we are talking journalism (whose rules are clear)
Welcome to DeLurkville
Exactly. It’s a false equivalence. This is the same silly argument that ondelette was making at EW’s place the other day. It is not the same working relationship at all.
Not real science! Look man, the Iraq war is only gonna cost about 80 billion….TOPS. snark
I would argue that not only are government cost reductions a central goal of this so-called reform it is one of many salvos to come. If you read about potential plans by some in the Obama administration to convert 401k’s and IRA’s to annuities upon retirement, unless the retiree opts out, one might view this as part of a trend. I like Jesse’s description better than just the link to the text which he links.
This plan came out of the Brookings Institute no less and is currently being promoted by one of the architects who now works in the Department of Labor. Am I detecting a trend in hiring?
“happy” is a relative term, sigh. From you, I’ll take it as ever so comforting and genuine. Happy New Year to you as well. You guys cheer my soul, no matter what nincompoops try to intrude on our little escape pods of joy.
Wheeeeeeeeeee!
There! Something rahm can’t touch, and sinator liarmund’Oh can’t hope to comprehend.
;->
Prof.Guber paid Gov’t hack and liar. I’m sure he can now rely on endless Gov’t grants and Corp. sponsorships, f*cking WHORE! Academia is filled with these kinds nowadays. No conscience , no morals and no professional ethics. I’m really disappointed in Krugman backing up this putz.
x2.
me too,i met the guy,he has fallen in my esteem
I suspect Krugman suffers from the Doctrine of Obama’s Infallibility. In spite of all the evidence to the contrary, everything will be blamed on Lieberman, Nelson, others. But to adopt this kind of “you are either with us or with the birthers” approach is totally beyond the pale, and the intellectual laziness evident in his wholesale, uncritical acceptance of administration’s (and Gruber’s) claims of how wonderful this reform will be is unexcusable.
And I am not thrilled with his regal, “let them eat cake” dismissal of the working class and the unions who will just have to negotiate for higher wages in lieu of the benefits they worked so hard to get and now stand to lose. I guess Krugman is just too much of a macroeconomist for his own good. It’s as if we are not people, we are “factors of production”.
that’s not how i read it. maybe that’s what he meant, but that’s not what he is reported to have said. from the atlantic:
gruber is supposed to consulting as an economist on health policy — not a politician. i read it that he’s talking about what he thinks is possible policy-wise not what he thinks is possible politics-wise.
The supporters prefer the shorter phrase “bending the curve on insurance” or “bending the cost curve”. Lots of hidden meaning in those simple words.
This interview is framed around who to fleece and how in order to redistribute the money in the system. The insurance industry has been skiving off 30 percent in the last 30 years. Let me say that again. 30 PERCENT. These mobsters have their hands up the rear ends of the sock puppets in congress and the administration and now we are going to be given the non-choice of forking over MORE to them even though THEY are the ones mostly responsible for the inefficiency in the system.
This is INSANE.
Yes, it is INSANE. And, just as an added benefit, this bill in essence drives the stake through Single Payer once and for ALL, because if you think the insurance cartel was too tough to take on in this round of reform, just wait until they have 400 million customers and more money than God. Single Payer is probably forever dead with this bill, which is of course, why it it is so supported by the powers that be.
But what’s more INSANE, and what I still can’t get my head around (believe it or not I do get the insanity of this bill, it’s simply the age old rich getting richer to a new extreme), but what I still can’t fathom is the number of so-called progressives defending, and outright supporting, this insanity. THAT’S the mind blower for me.
a year ago september (sep 2008) marcia angell gave a talk at princeton on healthcare reform. paul krugman introduced her (very glowingly – i think she was the first women editor-in-chief of the nejm) as “she’s one of the most important voices in the great debate we’re now having about healthcare policy.” he said re the debate of ma plan / obama plan vs single payer “no one understands the issues and realities better than marcia angell” and also asked a good question during the q&a, so i’m pretty sure he was paying attention. which means krugman probably knows that something like $4 trillion over 10 years could be saved with the kind of single payer healthcare reform marcia angell was advocating — which would mean we could provide first dollar coverage (no deductibles, no copays, no coinsurance) for everyone. (tax receipts are down, so while i don’t know, it’s possible the numbers would be in deficit while the recession lasts. but that’s how automatic stabilizers are supposed to work during a downturn).
http://lectures.princeton.edu/?p=238
(the lecture itself is worth a listen and still relevant: webstream, mp3)
An economist that does not accept the premise of the efficiencies of capitalist markets isn’t going to get a lot of jobs. Krugman’s Nobel having been given out, as all Nobels in economics are, by a group of swedish bankers. The prize being named “Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel” because, the story goes, Nobel didn’t much care for economists. And bankers don’t much care for economists with a socialist bent.
wow. thanks for pointing that out.
Heeaas da deal, see. Some a yous is been complainin dat yous ain’t got da dough ta pay up, see. Well now EVERY body’s gonna be payin up see. No more mista nice guy. We got Guido and Ralph (the IRS) ova heeaa and if’n you don’t pay one way, weaa gonna collect another way, got it? Now we came ta dis arrangement legally see. All ya representatives and ya pin heads sold it up real nice like, and we got it all passed and signed inta lawr. So theaas nuttin yous can do abouditt. See? Gimme da money.
I think he’s more complex than that, but like everyone else, when you challenge the top members of his profession, he sometimes feels you challenge him. I take his response as a mild intellectualization that covers his defensive response. He’s quite willing in other circumstances to challenge Chicago school orthodoxy, Obama’s poor policy choices, etc.
Wow Jane. You and Marcy are becoming the main topic of many in the blogosphere! Unfortunately, these supposed “lefts” are not supporting you at all (to put it kindly). Have you checked what they are saying? Even John Amato’s site is being nasty. Perhaps it’s as I said previously. When push comes to shove, the REAL progressives are showing up, and the others are showing they are nothing more than shills for the Democratic Party. Glad to see you aren’t. Keep up the great work!
There’s still the reality of the 60-vote-filibuster-proof-majority. In the 1960s, “extended-debate-related problems” — threatened or actual filibusters — affected only 8 percent of major legislation. By the 1980s, that had risen to 27 percent. But after Democrats retook control of Congress in 2006 and Republicans found themselves in the minority, it soared to 70 percent.
It is certainly a policy designed to fit into the frame of,
I think that captures a background issue well. That it brutally dismisses the nominal goal of this reform from the public’s perspective – providing better access to health care – except as a theatrical device, is probably not a perspective this government wants widely shared.
Yeah, but the filibuster itself doesn’t have to be a ‘reality.’ It’s certainly nowhere to be seen in the U.S. Constitution. In fact, the U.S. Constitution is very clear on what votes require supermajorities, and it doesn’t list passing legislation as one of them.
The Democrats could end the filibuster today. Tomorrow. Last week. Next month. With 50 votes (Biden as tiebreaker). All they need is the backbone and desire.
And imagine this. Imagine the Republics had just won an impressive popular vote and landslide electoral victory for President, and accompanied it by staggering new majorities in the House and 59 Senate seats. Imaganing that? Now imagine those pesky 41 Democrats filibustered everything. Still imagining? Now, just how long do you really think it would be before those Republicans did away with said filibuster? If you said anything past one year, you lose.
Total BS, Gruber is paid to provide cover for the WH position in the guise of economic analysis, not to provide political advice.
Obama has plenty of advisors to tell him what’s possible in the Senate, as if he doesn’t know that already.
In the 60s threatening a filibuster was generally not done. The few that did it discovered it wasn’t all that much fun, didn’t change the outcome and discovered other ways to get things done. We have more threats to filibuster now because they don’t have to back up their words with deeds. Let them do it and put it on C-Span. Much better than letting it be used as a reason to cave.
Sort of reminds me of John Yoo.
Ebay’s shill bidding policy.
“Shill bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item’s price or desirability. It’s also bidding by the people the seller knows—including family members, roommates, or employee—who could have certain information about the item that other members aren’t aware of. To make sure no one gets an unfair advantage, we don’t allow shill bidding on eBay.”
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html
Interesting graphic with ‘paid expert’.
http://www.howtheychangeyourmind.com/pages/propaganda.html
It’s time for a Krugman smackdown. I think this blog is the closest thing to it, that I’ve seen so far.
Can you make out the cardigan in the silhouette?
Rayne has a graph on her Seminal thread entitled “Follow the Money.”
It is also of note,imho, Gruber’s long time association with Larry Summers.In fact Gruber acknowledges Summer’s was instrumental in getting him(Gruber) a postion in the Clinton administration in 1998,in a book foreword Gruber wrote.
Summers has a background with both MIT and Harvard, in addition to being an Economic advisor ,presently, to President Obama.
The links and further info are at forementioned Seminal thread by Rayne, entitled “Follow the Money”-including the actual HHS description of the contract itself.
Jane I got that by combining two sources of information. The first source was from USASpending showing the $95K contract was signed on 3/25:
“Date Signed 03/25/2009″
http://www.usaspending.gov/fpds/fpds.php?reptype=r&database=fpds&record_id=38973330&fiscal_year=2009&detail=3&datype=T&sortby=i
The second source was searching for Gruber on the WH guest list to see that the appointment was scheduled around 4:30 PM on 3/25 with the meeting held the very next day on 3/26 with Orzag:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/waves/all/gruber
This is both serious against Gruber as well as the WH. The defense against Gruber is that it is just an anonymous government contract, but clearly the WH visitor log shows otherwise and this is a black mark against both the WH and Gruber for not disclosing.
And Orzag was dating the WaPoo’s publisher.
Do you think they talked about Gruber over wine . . . or coffee?
very nice!
Almost. It looks a bit like Gruber, but the ‘expert’ seems to be stroking a Beard Of Understanding, so it could be Krugman…
The taxpayers were cheated because when you look at what Gruber is saying, it doesn’t even make sense,
so the “advice” is worthless.
But if you look around academia you will find government “hush money” prevails in many quarters.
If the opponent is so foolish to estimate by appearance, that is the opponents failure, and may they rue the disadvantage they earn by doing so.
Waiting for the clip.
wait no longer
And which branch of Congress are you in that you are so damned sure that you know what is politically possible? If this site embarasses you, then you are free to leave, and save yourself some discomfort and save those who appreciate the work done by Jane and others here from having to clean the dung off their shoes when they step in your comments. Fortunately, Teddy Kennedy did not live to see how his torch bearer is cocking up and selling out his dream. This Administration didn’t even try. They feared and avoided conflict, and did what they felt was necessary to line their reelection coffers, the public be damned; so don’t come here lecturing on immaturity and the politics of what’s possible when these guys surrendered without even firing a shot, as if they were double agent saboteurs from the beginning.
I want to see J. Gruber on the MSM explaining and defending his statement that he couldn’t think of anything the bill left out.
Defending against someone knowledgeable about the topic.
remember back to the WaPo pay to play? Was Orzag the bait?
Jane is pulling the shills out of the woodwork.
Just like the old timey reporters who sat around with a cigarette hanging out their mouths and their hats on while typing in the newsroom.You have to love old movies to know about them . Were they real?
Go Jane
A transcript for this entire interview is needed. ASAP!
Thanks for the clip. It was super.
This proprietary simulator that Dr. Gruber has developed, would it be possible that OTHER entities could contract with him to develop, oh say ,financial forecasts?
Would his contracting to HHS disallow him selling his services, so to speak, to say Insurance companies or firms like Goldman Sachs?
Jus’ askin’.
IMHO the answer is “yes” to both. This is a consulting contract “on the side,” not a research grant, which would normally go to/through MIT and not augment his salary.
I suspect that during the campaign, Gruber was paid from campaign funds. Now that Obama is president, the same advisory relationship exists but he is being paid through HHS.
Exactly!
I suspect that a lot of those “mind-blowing” progressives who are supporting this bill are not all that unhappy with the status quo, either.
They have their comfortable standard of living, their own health care coverage… they can travel, wine and dine well, mingle among the elites. What’s not to like?
Look around at who the whiners are: people who don’t earn enough money, even if they have good health care, people without health care coverage, people with health care coverage they can’t afford to use, those with a sense of insecurity about their jobs, which could mean the loss of a home or of health care coverage, too.
No one who is truly “comfortable” is complaining right now about this bill, because they don’t really believe it could affect them. There are some exceptions of course, some progressive activists, disgruntled conservatives, and a few senators and congressmen/women who are still in touch with the pulse of their constituents because they have not yet been corrupted by the money and power inside the beltway, or perhaps because they still remember where they came from, and how miserable it was. They are the real outliers.
How does decreased coverage coupled with higher out-of-pocket expense to the currently employed people in the US fall under the heading “health care reform”?
The reform is to combat people losing their homes due to high healthcare bills (illness or accident leading to foreclosure), or to combat seniors breaking their pills in half to stretch each precious bottle, or diabetics taking half their insulin, or …
I just don’t get it. The economy is rebounding, so punish the workers??
Unemployed people won’t be negotiating their coverage plans with their employers.
“You work hard, your industry survived the crash and is therefore valuable to the economy, so f*ck you.”
Marcy, just viewed the clip.
I didn’t see Schuster’s introduction, but based on what I saw, I have the following suggestion:
One can NEVER underestimate the intelligence of tv viewers. I don’t know if David teed this up, or if you’re willing to use some of your scarce time to do so, but even I — a faithful reader of FDL — needed a quick reminder/framing.
So I’d suggest saying, “let’s take a minute, David, to remind everyone where we are. We’re talking about paying for health care ‘reform.’ The House bill wants to pay for it by taxing millionaires. The Senate bill wants to pay for it by taxing what it terms ‘Cadillac plans’ — namely plans covering union members and others in the middle class.
“The rationale that Senators and the WH are using for this ‘tax the Cadillac plans’ argument is some economic models run by Gruber.
“Turns out, though, that Gruber’s NOT an independent eye evaluating this; he’s been paid by the WH/Administration.
“We think it’s important that he ‘conveniently’ forgot to disclose this tie to the WH.
“We’d like to have a more impartial look at the effect on middle class families of this ‘Cadillac tax.’ We don’t think Gruber’s estimates/projections can be relied upon.”
You can surely do this 3,000 times better than I’ve set up, but I think folks out there watching in media land need to have this tied to themselves, and to see how this is just a piece of Obama & Friends selling them down the river.
PS – you looked GREAT in the clip. Content even better.
Just because something is “reform,” it doesn’t mean it is reform for the better. Obama repeatedly makes this false argument that any change is better than no change at all and then he combines that with the infomercial “Must act now!” pitch so that people will take a crap sandwich before they have a chance to realize what is being pushed on them.
Strictly an observation:
It has been stated that Dr. Gruber’s contract with HHS began in June,2009.
The very next month, here is an interesting development:
Blackstone, Goldman Sachs Back New Insurance Agency (Update1 …Jul 7, 2009 … [bn:WBTKR=BX:US] Blackstone Group LP [], Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Credit Suisse Group AG are backing a new US firm marketing insurance …
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=as... – Similar
Daily Kos: Blackstone, Goldman Sachs Back New Insurance AgencyDec 21, 2009 … Blackstone, Goldman Sachs Back New Insurance Agency … Firms including Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley have been investing in middlemen to …
http://www.wordtrippers.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/21/55037/425 – Cached
“That tax subsidy to employer sponsored insurance as it is called costs our nation about $250 Billion a year and leads by, many economists and the Congressional Budget Office’s estimates to excessive health insurance coverage and rising health care costs.”
This is going to be highly umpopular with the already insured public that is least into “healthcare reform” because they are most “satisfied with their current plan.”
While I dislike all efforts to leech the middle class–and when done by the government through taxation it’s clearly a right wing making machine–but this may be a point on which universal healthcare advocates can build in the future.
When that very large mass of employees is paying taxes on the benefits decisions made by their corporate HR offices, they will be faced with the choice of either agitating to reduce the coverage their HR office purchases for them or agitating for a “public option” when it’s clear they are ALREADY paying taxes for their health coverage.
At that point, they can weigh the question of whether the private healthcare financing industry better protects their interests or whether the government better protect their interests. It’s potentially a whole new pro-reform constituency.
I know this is 9-dimensional chess, which I’d prefer not to play, but if the Senate Bill DOES go through that’s the pretty much the game reform advocates are going to be stuck playing.
However, I don’t think reform advocates should attach themselves to the D-Party, because the D-Party gonna have no friends left once this thing passes…
Blackstone, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse and ING Launch Independent Insurance Group
Posted by Alex Finkelstein 07/07/09 3:06 PM EST
(NEW YORK, NY) – Already among the behemoths of the real estate capital industry, The Blackstone Group, Goldman Sachs, ING and Credit Suisse are branching out into a new field – insurance.The companies today jointly announced the formation of Insphere Insurance Solutions, Philip J. Hildebrand, a nationally known health industry executive, is CEO of the new group.
Philip J. Hildebrand
Hildebrand says that as one if its initial solutions, Insphere Insurance Solutions plans to have a marketing agreement with ING, a leading global banking and insurance company, to distribute the company’s term life and universal life insurance products.
Hildebrand says Insphere Insurance Solutions expects to be the largest independent career agent insurance distribution group in America, with a force of 3,500 agents and offices in over 40 states when the company commences services in 2010.
This new company expects to be the nation’s largest independent career agent distribution group offering life, health, long-term care and retirement products for small businesses and the middle-income market.
Excerpt,link to follow
Blackstone, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse and ING Launch Independent Insurance Group
Posted by Alex Finkelstein 07/07/09
REAL ESTATE CHANNEL™ – A Global Real Estate News & Property …Dec 31, 2009 … REAL ESTATE CHANNEL is a global web-based Real Estate News and Property Information media network that distributes quality real estate news …
http://www.realestatechannel.com/
I loved how when Ifill asked Gruber how he’d persuade Dem opponents of the excise tax in Congress he responded how they need to be “educated”. Right, Jon, because neither they nor their staffs have examined the data on it. The problem isn’t that they don’t understand the excise tax, it’s that they don’t buy your conclusions on it.
Frankly, any examination of wages for any purpose that doesn’t include the effects of globalization and the severe revenue problems of state and local governments (employers of many people in unions) across the country isn’t worth a damn, I don’t care how respected the economist is who did it.
Second McCain/Obama debate, October 7, 2008:
Candidate Obama: Now, Sen. McCain has a different kind of approach. He says that he’s going to give you a $5,000 tax credit. What he doesn’t tell you is that he is going to tax your employer-based health care benefits for the first time ever.
So what one hand giveth, the other hand taketh away. …
In fact, just today business organizations like the United States Chamber of Commerce, which generally are pretty supportive of Republicans, said that this would lead to the unraveling of the employer-based health care system.
That, I don’t think, is the kind of change that we need. We’ve got to have somebody who is fighting for patients and making sure that you get decent, affordable health care. And that’s something that I’m committed to doing as president.
There is a subtle difference between educated and re-educated. Mostly around leverage and time. Both assume that the educator is in the controlling position. Persuasion is a different animal.
Same debate
Candidate McCain: And if you do the math, those people who have employer-based health benefits, if you put the tax on it and you have what’s left over and you add $5,000 that you’re going to get as a refundable tax credit , do the math, 95 percent of the American people will have increased funds to go out and buy the insurance of their choice and to shop around and to get — all of those people will be covered except for those who have these gold-plated Cadillac kinds of policies.
I am amused by Obama using McCain’s plan today, right down to the author of the agenda.
And it looks like with McCain’s plan, employer-based health plans would be taxed, but people would get a $5,000 tax credit. President Obama dropped the tax credit and is just taking from people with jobs. Imagine, McCain’s plan was more palatable than the President’s new plan.
“educated” — Yeah, I could have spit on him at that point.
“… Gruber told Brownstein that “it’s really hard to figure out how to bend the cost curve, but I can’t think of a thing to try that they didn’t try…everything is in here.”
This is why I don’t believe the nonsense that gruber believes this nonsense. And I don’t believe that this is the honest opinion of the good professor. He is a bought-and-paid for shill cashing in on his “credibility” … 3/4s of a million dollars!!! … as are almost all the establishment economists in this country to some degree.
No, I do not believe of the innate goodness of economists in this country. There are good, intellectually honest economists here in the US, but they rarely are given access to power becoz they won’t mindlessly spout the free market/free trade ideology our plutocrat class wants the country to adhere to when the carnage to the middle class due to these “beliefs” is too obvious.
Z
Mary, do you remember the date that Rahm threw down the Brownstein article-and date of said article- and told everyone it was required reading?
Yes, Tuesday, November 24, 2009.
http://www.politico.com/playbook/1109/playbook874.html
The Atlantic article ran on Saturday, November 21, 2009.
http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/11/a_milestone_in_the_health_care_journey.php
TPM got the Rahm quote:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/rahm-orders-health-care-article-be-must-read-for-staffers.php
Thank you.
You know, in the HHS description of Gruber’s contract it states that it is a continuation of projects that Gruber has been doing .It also states that Gruber’s simulator has/is being used for other reforms.
By any chance ,do you know what other reforms or ongoing project they are referring to?
I will repost the contract’s description, for the record, if the mods don’t mind.
Here is the description of the contract:
“The Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation (ASPE), intends to negotiate with Jonathan Gruber, Ph.D. on a sole sources basis for technical assistance in evaluating options for national healthcare reform. The basis for restricting competition is the authority of 41 USC 253(c)(1) 106-1(b) because there is only one responsible source and no other supplies or services will satisfy DHHS requirements. The anticipated contract period will be eight months.
ASPE requires a technical memorandum on the estimated changes in health insurance coverage and associated costs and impacts to the government under alternative specifications of health system reform. The requirement includes developing estimates of various health reform proposals on health insurance coverage and cost. The alternative specifications to be considered will be derived from the President’s health reform proposal. This project is a continuation of work that Dr. Gruber is currnetly providing for ASPE.
Dr. Gruber is uniquely positioned to provide the analytic work ASPE requires based on over 15 years of experience in health care and health policy. Dr. Gruber is a recognized expert in health policy in economics including being widely published in peer-reviewed academic and health policy literature on the effects of changes in health benefit designs on the cost of enrollment in health insurance. Moreover, in order to estimate the impacts, Dr. Gruber developed a proprietary statistically sophisticated micro-simulation model that has the flexibility to ascertain the distribution of changes in health care spending and public and private sector health care costs due to a large variety of changes in health insurance benefit design, public program eligibility criteria, and tax policy. This model has been used for other health reform proposal.
Finally, Dr. Gruber’s ongoing work with ASPE, using these proprietary models to help inform the Office of Health Reform, strongly positions him to meet HHS’ requirements the most efficiently, which is a key requirement in order for well-developed legislative proposals to be put forth for Congressional consideration as soon as possible.”
Jonathan Gruber Failed to Disclose His $392600 Contracts with HHSMIT health economist Jonathan Gruber has been the go-to source that all the health … Gruber is a well known and very public advocate for the excise tax. …
http://www.debatebothsides.com/showthread.php?p=1161206 – Cached
humor:
An image capture of Gruber’s $400k proprietary model has been leaked:
http://www.imageboo.com/files/en33x6mtjlfn16f371t0.jpg
No, I don’t know what other projects his simulator is being used for.
I noticed that the award was listed on dates (May 21 and June 19, I think), but looking back at those dates in the awards lists the award was not listed at all. I remarked about it here, but no one else seemed to think that was odd. The awards not being listed at HHS made me wonder if the original award was through Zeke Emmanual and OMB. But I have no way of finding out.
Thank you for your reply, Mary.
Many times that which I consider to have the ring of significance,fails to strike a chord,too.*G*
The graph that Rayne used in her “Follow the Money” thread over atSeminal,(link at #94), showed a total of $3 million in grants going back to 2000.
You may want to check out the other comments there, if you have not done so,yet.
After viewing the appearance of Jonathan Gruber and Josh Bivens on ‘The News Hour’ LINK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m3yOh0sPfU&feature=player_embedded#
Well Mr. Gruber, where to begin?
On the topic of education with respect to the health care reform, I think it is good that the average citizen is allowed to hear your views.
There is a lot that they could learn, however I am afraid that not all will be happy to hear what you say.The more that they learn, the less happy they will be.
Are you the messenger? Your message that the loss of a tax credit is not a tax increase may not sell so well.
Can you predict the possible responses to your statement (not a rhetorical question)? I am quite confident I could list a few likely responses.
Do you really expect that people will come to the same conclusion that you do in that in return for lessened employer health insurance contributions that employees will receive a ‘raise’ in any way, shape or form?
The average citizen may not expect that speaking from on high ( as a economist at MIT, or as unofficial White House spokesman, or as official White House Consultant,or as whatever you might be depending who asks for what disclosure (and your response which may or may not mislead); that you are watching out for their interests. Recent experiences with subprime mortgages, CDOs ,MBSs, Madoffs, and AIGs; not to mention certain related questions of good regulation,and or an incredible lack of financial foresight bring the work of fellows like you into some question amongst the populace at large.
There is (IMHO) a slight credibility gap that will need to be overcome for your messages to sell.
Here’s wishing you and yours plenty of opportunities to discuss in public what you really think about this and related topics.
Please do educate us all on how you think this will work.
Also feel free to enlighten with some of the underlying assumptions, and any items which even though are known to be true, may not be obvious to the average reader or viewer.
If I may offer a suggestion: the topic of blue laws and how the repeal of the same were a bad thing (please do respond and correct me if I mischaracterize your work or conclusions) would be easy for the public to understand.
Some members of the public would be pleased with the various appropriate government regulators banning certain activities on Sundays, especially if the intended goal was to reduce alcohol consumption (quick- close the bars!),or to encourage church attendance by restricting the market for competing activities( let us close the restaurants and the malls, oh and grocery stores too, just to be sure!).
Some monopoly would be OK in this case ( or perhaps since multiple churches might be in the market it would be a oligopoly),especially since the attendance at church would increase. The free market for churches would be free to be free, or to work it’s magic ( I’m not an economist, so this may not be the correct terminology to use here).
Let us not forget the increased flow of donations to whatever good causes are enabled by the collection plates at said beneficiary churches. Fortunately there are no tax related distortions present here (are there?).
One problem that does come to mind is that portion of the populace which enjoys watching NFL games in places such as restaurants and bars (worse dens of iniquity such as family rooms and basements will not be mentioned here). Some of these NFL games ( the ones played on Sundays are implicated with a high degree of correlation) seem to interfere with maximizing church attendance. Furthermore, said Sunday NFL games waste monies that would otherwise be directed to the “good causes” supported by said churches (the market for small jets seems particularly depressed lately, and there does seem to be significant demand for small jets for “religious need”). It seems clear something must be done.
Your study seems to provide groundbreaking analysis of what could be accomplished if our legislators would better cooperate with religious leaders, say as they do in certain countries such as (well you may supply the examples yourself).The NFL problem does seem to be unresolved by the work you did (unless I missed it).
In reading your study it appears that you solicited funding for additional related work that might answer this dilemma ( the ‘What To Do About The NFL On Sunday’ dilemma), or at least give us the opportunity costs society incurrs for allowing fans to watch NFL games on Sundays (while either consuming alcoholic beverages or not (as they choose!)). Were you able to obtain funding to answer such questions? If so, how goes the work?
The reason I bring this up:
If the NFL games are not to be played on Sundays, or if the NFL on Sunday will only be able to be watched in church, matters not so much to me; except that if it is to be the second case the construction of the appropriate viewing ‘churches’ will need to start soon, so as to be ready on the decreed day. Some of these churches will need to start the alcohol licensing process now in order they may serve the sacraments necessary for watching the NFL games ( and other forms of soon to be scrutinized sports such as NASCAR).
I know that you are a busy man, and I apologize if this comment seems too long for a man with a schedule such as yours.
Good luck in all your upcoming appearances, and do the best you can to sell whatever you have for sale.
Interested parties may refer to this work: (link provided below)
NBER WORKING PAPER SERIES
THE CHURCH VS. THE MALL: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN
RELIGION FACES INCREASED SECULAR COMPETITION?
Jonathan Gruber
Daniel M. Hungerman
Working Paper 12410
http://www.nber.org/papers/w12410
LINK:
http://econ-www.mit.edu/files/3709
Holy cow. That was one of the most satisfying skewers I’ve ever read.
To continue the timeline, see this:
Goldman To Private Insurers: No Health Care Reform At All Is BestNov 12, 2009 … Simply put: health care reform is going to hurt their bottom line. No less a prestigious voice than Goldman Sachs is telling them so. …
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…/goldman-to-private-insure_n_355998.html – Cached
Goldman Sachs views health care, not from the perspective of an individual seeking care, but from the point of view of a prospector …
discuss.epluribusmedia.net/content/goldman-sachs-health-care-reform – Cache
FDL News Desk » Health Reform Advocates Find A New Villain …Nov 13, 2009 … Last month, Goldman Sachs put together an analysis of health care legislation that took a look at what types of reform would be best for the …
news.firedoglake.com/…/health-reform-advocates-find-a-new-villain-goldman-sachs/ – Cached
Mother …Goldman Sachs Tells How to Cash in on Health Care Reform. — By James Ridgeway. | Fri Nov. 13, 2009 1:01 PM PST. First we bailed out the teetering Wall …
motherjones.com/…/goldman-sachs-tells-how-cash-health-care-reform – Cached
Only the announcement that Dorgan wont be running is all I remember.
Yes, the NFL Problem was largely overlooked by the smartest guy money could buy, but it wasn’t missed by you!
I’m busy checking that nothing else has been overlooked!
I’m suspicious…:)
A post is coming on an apparent math error/descriptive inaccuracy in the linked to interview of Dr. Gruber.
I found these gems:
October 12, 2009 – The New Republic
http://www.tnr.com/blog/expert-ahip-claim-benefits-tax-implausible
Shaking my head….
Really good analogy. Thanks.
Yes, I agree that Marcy, Jane, D-Day, and Jon have done a fine job on the Gruber Affair. Thank you all.
That may be. Then let them kill it. And come back at them again later this year.
In fact, Gruber has no specially expertise about what is politically possible, so why should he be talking about “bending the cost curve” from that perspective.
hooters stock prices?
You found another one. Is this non-disclosed expert opinion (October 12, 2009) already known?
What hotdog said @ 134.
Hahahahahahahahaha.
Many thnx. Yeppers.
From the clip above: Gruber and Bivens at “The News Hour” LINK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m3yOh0sPfU&feature=player_embedded
Watch the clip and see Gruber state:
1. “The tax subsidy to employer sponsored insurance as it is called costs our nation $250 Billion per year.” (starting at :45)
2. “I think that you need to remember that we are not talking about a new tax on these people. We’re talking about saying they currently get an enormous tax break and we’re going to slightly scale that back and use the money to cover uninsured people.So the issue is are you willing to slightly scale back an existing tax break we give to the most expensive plans to raise $150 Billion that makes insurance affordable for the poorest.”(starting at 2:20)
First he states that the “tax subsidy” for not taxing employee health benifits is $250 Billion per year.Then he states that by “slightly scaling back” $150 Billion will be raised.
So the math seems to be $250 Billion in tax breaks for the working Americans who receive some form of employer subsidized health insurance currently, apply “slightly scale that back ” (Gruber’s phrase) in order to raise $150 Billion under the new plan.
Observations:
1. $150 Billion is not gotten by “slightly scaling back” a $250 Billion tax subsidy.
2. I understand his reluctance to state that this is a new tax on previously untaxed employer subsidized health insurance, why he thinks it is better to say it is slightly scaling back a huge tax break they currently get. However that is not marked ‘sold’ on this appearance.
When Gwen Ifill asks Josh Bivens about this (starting at 2:50 in the clip) “Lets get the terminology right first Josh Bivens. Are we talking about a new tax or are we talking about relieving someone from a tax break they were always getting ” , Bivens answers “I think that’s a distinction mostly without a difference.”
So $150Billion is is slight part of $250 Billion.
Losing a tax subsidy is not a tax increase.
We should be embarrassed to be the beneficiaries of such a huge and distorting subsidy. That subsidy is responsible as he claims for “excessive health insurance coverage”
If it is your tax break, it may be be called a subsidy (prior to it being”relieved from you” rather than lost.)
Opinions may differ, but that is what he said.
Health care reform: dedicated to preventing excessive health insurance coverage.
That is another interesting find.
When I read these articles that criticize various aspects of HCR proposals
I often find Dr. Gruber administering or assisting in the drubbing, but never in my recollection the recipient of the drubbing.
His knowledge must be immense to always be on the right side of this large and complicated issue. The real trick is to always be on the right side of whichever media participant is ‘collecting the facts’. He always seems to be in the right place at the right time.
Are you aware of any where he on the defense rather than the offense?
I’ve found several others similar to this latest one you linked to, but not posted on any. Are you aware of any list of where he appeared in the print media?
I’ve found these appearances are not always easy to find with the search.
Lawrence Mishel of the EPI did a Seminal thread here today,entitled”Employer Health Costs Do Not Drive Wage Trends”.
In it, Mishel writes this:
“Gruber clearly over-reached with the argument about health care driving wage trends and has acknowledged that to me privately (yesterday)”
FDL News Desk » Health Reform Advocates Find A New Villain …Nov 13, 2009 … Last month, Goldman Sachs put together an analysis of health care legislation that took a look at what types of reform would be best for the …
news.firedoglake.com/…/health-reform-advocates-find-a-new-villain-goldman-sachs/ – Cached
NOTE: The report outlining four scenarios and how they would affect Goldman Sachs investors was sent out in October,also.
See#135 for additional links relating to this GS report.
Forgot to click reply. Reply to Gitcheegumee @149
Yes, thanks, just arriving here from there, Via bmaz’s latest ‘Marcy Wheeler TeeVee”.
I was suprised to see that quote there.
I am sure that for Dr. Gruber it is a most unforseen turn of events.
Things moving right along, media stenographic operations at full spew, and then: what’s this? A short comment is posted disclosing a surprising fact.
Acting like it is the fault of those fooled, acting like business as usual; the usual tactics of denial and minimization are an unexpected fail.
Now, as senators question what has happened, clearly events exceed the planned activities.
Dr. Gruber may well have the opportunity to testify to congress about some of these matters.