Paul Krugman challenges Marcy Wheeler’s work on Jonathan Gruber’s failure to disclose his contract with HHS, saying it is simply the result of Gruber “being too much of an academic” who needs to “to reserve as much space as possible for real content” in 800-word essays.
He argues that Gruber was only saying what he would have said anyway, even if he weren’t being paid, and concludes:
What the folks at Firedoglake should ask themselves is this: do you really want to become just like the right-wingers with their endless supply of fake scandals?
Gruber received $780,713 in government contracts in 2009. In addition to the HHS contracts, he was hired by the Department of Justice, the NIH and the State Department for work this year. Krugman is right to say that the government awards these kinds of contracts to academics on a regular basis. But there is a fundamental difference between the HHS contract and the others.
Krugman says “Gruber’s grant is from HHS, not the West Wing.” But in point of fact, he was hired expressly to advise the West Wing.
On February 25, the Department of Health & Human Services began a presolicitation of Gruber’s services on a “sole-source basis” to “developed a proprietary statistically sophisticated micro-simulation model” to analyze, advise, and report on all the elements relating to insurance. The HHS synopsis says:
The information will facilitate the Office of Health Reform’s efforts to develop proposals to increase access to affordable health insurance for all Americans.
The Office of Health Reform. That’s a White House office, headed by Nancy-Ann DeParle, whose appointment was announced along with that of Kathleen Sebelius on March 3:
She works closely with her old friend, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius on the administration’s biggest, and possibly toughest, legislative goal.
In fact, when HHS announced the next presolicitation for Gruber’s services on May 21 for $295,000, the wording changed:
The alternative specifications to be considered will be derived from the President’s health reform proposal.
The President’s health reform proposal. Not some remote project off in the bowels of the Department of Health & Human services, as Krugman suggests.
Gruber had worked closely with Peter Orzsag in the past, authoring a number of papers on Social Security and taxation together. In 2007, Gruber had praised George Bush’s health care plan for taxing “excessively generous, even gold-plated, health insurance.” And, in 2008, Gruber was on a panel at the Senate Finance Committee Health Care Summit, chaired by John Kerry (who authored the excise tax language contained in the Finance Committee bill). Orszag attended, as well. There was every reason to believe that when HHS solicited Gruber’s services in February, shortly before DeParle and Sebelius were appointed, that they knew exactly what they were getting by hiring an economist who had been one of the primary architects of the Massachusetts plan. That plan relied solely on private insurance plans with no public option, and when they hired Gruber in February it was clear that this was the model they intended to pursue. In Gruber, they had an economist who had a vested interest in defending his previous work on that project. His models would in all likelihood show what they had shown before: that taxing “Cadillac plans” was the way to go.
Krugman says that Gruber’s contract with HHS has nothing to do with politics, and that, therefore, disclosure is just not an issue. But the point is that Gruber’s work for HHS became expressly political, and was used for political purposes:
- On November 2, Gruber evaluated the CBO report on the House health care bill. In it, he uses his model to evaluate the House bill, concluding that it “will deliver savings ranging from $470 for singles to $1260 for families – even without subsidies.”
- On November 20, he published a paper entitled “Impacts of the Senate High Cost Insurance Excise Tax on Wages: Updated,” claiming that the excise tax would result in wage hikes of $234 billion from 2013 through 2019.
- On November 27, he published a paper entitled “The Senate Bill Lowers Non-Group Premiums: Updated for New CBO Estimates,” issuing a paper saying the Senate bill “will deliver savings ranging from $200 for singles to $500 for families in today’s dollars – even without subsidies.”
At no point in any of these papers did Gruber indicate that this was exactly the work that the Department of HHS had contracted him to do on behalf of the “President’s plan.”
Now, you could certainly argue that the Senate and the House plans were not “the President’s plan.” If that’s the case, was he doing these papers out of the goodness of his heart? And where is the work that he has been contracted to do on behalf of DeParle and the Office of Health Reform? Is it stashed away some place, out of the prying eyes of the public?
While Gruber may have said the exact same thing if he hadn’t been paid by HHS, the White House was inordinately happy with the work he did do. They began furiously promoting his findings as soon as they were out, emphasizing his connection to MIT — but never making mention of the fact that he had been engaged by HHS to do work on their behalf.
November 11, on the White House blog, Jesse Lee wrote a post entitled “Word from the White House: Objective Analysis Shows Reform will Help Small Businesses, Lower Premiums for American Families.” He noted that “MIT economist Jonathan Gruber has a new report out showing that reform will lower premiums for Americans purchasing insurance on their own.” Emphasis on “objective analysis,” no mention that he had been contracted to advise the White House.
On November 28, Nancy Ann-DeParle herself wrote on the White House blog: “MIT Economist Confirms Senate Health Reform Bill Reduces Costs and Improves Coverage.” Emphasis on MIT, no mention of the fact that he was a contractor who was paid to advise her office on just these matters.
On December 3, Kathleen Sebelius herself issued a statement on the Senate bill citing Gruber’s work — but with no mention HHS was paying him.
On December 14, the Executive Office of the President released a paper from the Council of Economic Advisors, which said “Research by Jonathan Gruber finds that even just a single provision – the excise tax – would increase after-tax wages by $234 billion from 2013 to 2019.” It also claimed that “Under the Senate bill, CBO projects no excise tax revenue in 2012 and $30 billion in 2018. CBO and JCT estimate that 81.2 percent of this additional revenue is attributable to higher wages as employers shift compensation from health insurance to wages.” The citation for both was Gruber’s November 20 paper.
John Kerry cited Gruber’s work on the floor of the Senate as justification for his excise tax. But he wasn’t alone. Harry Reid, Bob Casey, Sheldon Whitehouse, Blanche Lincoln, Tom Udall, Max Baucus, Jeff Bingaman, Al Franken, Tom Harkin, and Tom Udall all cited Gruber in support of their votes on the Senate bill.
The DNC sent 71 emails out between July and December of 2009 promoting Gruber’s work. Ron Brownstein obliged, writing a piece on Gruber‘s support of the excise tax and urging House Democrats to drop their opposition to it. According to Mike Allen, Obama made the Brownstein piece “mandatory reading for all senior staff”:
Sources say President Obama declared that a Saturday blog post by Ronald Brownstein on The Atlantic’s “Politics” channel — on how health reform would control costs — was mandatory reading for all senior staff and that everyone involved in, or covering, the health care debate should see the piece.
Rahm Emanuel reportedly told the White House Staff “not to come back to the next day’s meeting if they hadn’t read the article.”
At no point does anyone in the Senate, the White House or the DNC note that the work they were promoting was work done by an economist paid by HHS to consult with the White House.
Gruber was brought on board to do what everyone knew he would do: use his models, and his credibility as an academic at MIT, to promote the excise tax. As Jon Walker notes, “Gruber’s ethical failing is that he allowed himself to be falsely depicted as an objective outsider judge, which he was not.”
Krugman has always been quick to defend his academic pals. Ben Bernanke has “done a fine job in the crisis” and should be appointed to a second term. And now, in order to defend Jonathan Gruber, he insults Marcy Wheeler for being “just like the right wingers,” and fueling a “fake scandal.” This despite the fact that the Washington Post and the New York Times both say that Gruber misled them, as do a host of journalists who feel Gruber should have disclosed his financial ties to the administration — including Ron Brownstein himself.
Krugman owes everyone an explanation as to why he thinks it’s okay to smear someone fairly investigating a legitimate controversy in defense of a friend who misled people for months, who stood on the sidelines mutely while the White House promoted his work as objective verification of their own policies in a self-generated validation loop.
And he owes Marcy Wheeler an apology.




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Agreed. Do not mess with Marcy. Especially since she has gone out of her way to be even handed with Krugman and others who disagree with her.
Anyone with even undergraduate training in Economics should know that the best models can still be manipulated through assumptions and data. I don’t care whether Gruber is at MIT or Podunk U (with due apologies to PU); his lack of disclosure on the source of funding for his “research” is NOT a “fake scandal.” It is real and egregious.
The only way to overcome this, imo as someone with economics training albeit now inactive in economics, is for Gruber’s work to be subjected to a full and actually impartial peer review by multiple health care economists. His data and assumptions should be fully disclosed so that the public can decide for themselves.
And unless Krugman has done his own complete analysis of Gruber’s work, he should shut up. Except for his apology to Marcy of course!
Off topic, but where can I see the Walker-Silverman debate?
I would love for Krugman to come to FDL and debate Marcy. Where’s the Walker/Silver debate? Running late?
Great job calling out Krugman. He deserves it. Now we can wait for his response…ha!
Its a shame that something as important as transparency and integrity in the body politic in general and creation of public policy in particular are so easily dismissed by a so-called ‘progressive’ as it relates to a so-called public liberal policy as right-wing. It should not matter if the ‘truth’ comes from liberals, progressives, libertarians or conservatives. If it is factual, then its factual and we can deal with its interpretation but dont deny the facts.
Michael D. Ostrolenk
michaeldostrolenk@gmail.com
I like Krugman a lot, and he’s solid on a lot of issues. But his weakness has always been a tendency to go too easy on his academic colleagues. I imagine it’s because he was (and is) an academic first, and journalist second. Academics to have a tendency to reflexively cover for each other against perceived attacks from outside the ivory tower. He should apologize.
technical problems have force a delay until later in the week. Sorry.
Jane, GOOD job! I was a PK Groupie for 15 years, he did some amazing stuff back when (i.e. Japan’s liquidity trap.) Truth is, Krugman has a history of being a company man. He was nowhere to be found during the Glass-Steagall hearings when Greenspan frontran the Act’s total repeal without raising the question whether new regulatory oversight of the enourmous clout he was GIVING to our moneycenter banks might called for. Krugman was nowhere to be found when Greenspan applauded the Boskin Commission’s recommendation to drop our principal measurement of inflation, the CPI, by an enormous amount in percentage terms. Among other benefits, this remeasurement of the CPI dramatically increased the Fed’s ability to turn on the printing presses when caution was called for. See a pattern? Here’s the bombshell: Krugman sat silent during our economy changing housing bubble until 2006, months of when it popped! A tenth grader could’ve pointed it out by then. Why, was Krugman too consumed with “Chauncey” Bush to challenge his fellow Economists Greenspan & Bernanke where & when it counted?
Krugman likes to point out his rifts with Greenspan. I respond, they were minor compared to the economy driving decisions he sat out. It’s way too convenient for Krugman to make a big deal about small issues when authority KNOWS he could be counted when needed.
P.S. There were Economists who did speak up. Dean Baker addressed the Boskin Hearings as did Katherine Abraham (then head of the BLS) who commented that there was as much reason to raise the CPI an equal amount to what they wanted to lower it. Dean Baker spoke up at the hearings to repeal “Glass-Steagall”. And, Dean Baker started adressing our catistrophic Housing Bubble YEARS before it popped, back when it could have been deflated without causing a hiccup.
…thinking of Krugman…meant Silver not Silverman
“Too much of an academic”? A nationally ranked economist working at the top of his game in the academic pressure cooker of Boston and MIT is no political neophyte, anymore than is Paul Krugman. As much as I like and respect the good Nobelist’s public commentary these past eight years, that dog won’t hunt.
Dr. Gruber arguably knowingly failed to disclose pertinent conflicts, as did the Rahma & Obahma administration in touting his work as if they were Cheney pointing to a story he’d had leaked to the NYT.
Moreover, the topic of debate is, as Marcy has said, an $850 billion health insurance (only) program we’ll be stuck with for at least a generation. Its current outlines are terribly pro-insurer and pro-laissez fairer government, at the expense of failing to meet public needs in a way that only the government can. Tempers ought to flare. Public advocates – that’s the role Gruber is being most criticized for here – should expect to take the heat or get out of the kitchen.
I suspect you’re right. It’s easier to see things from one’s own point of view. The problem is, of course, that this is pretty much like the generals who couldn’t see their own conflicts of interest. They’re all standup guys, right? They wouldn’t do something that was counter to the interests of their service just to make a buck, right? It’s clear that some of them would, unfortunately, and that’s why there are ethics rules to cover such things.
“Best and brightest” 4 sale
Krugman, defender of Bernanke and bank bailouts, appears to have traded away his credibility for a seat at the Democrat table. Rather than address the issues around Gruber he resorts to name calling such as the impolite reference to being like right wingers. His unwillingness to defend Gruber simply on the facts, as would be expected in this situation, suggests that Krugman has failed to act objectively. There was a time when I enjoyed reading his stuff but that pretty much went away when he became a cheerleader for the bailouts.
we had technical problems, and will have to postpone — apologies.
Savings would only translate into wage increases in a perfectly competitive market. With unemployment above 10%, how much leverage do workers have?
It wouldn’t benefit public employees either, because those savings would probably be used to pay off state budget deficits.
But, since the GLBT community, undocumented immigrants, and women have been thrown under the HCR bus, why not add unions?
Are there any progressives left that haven’t received the shiv from the Democratic Party?
Smugman is way out of line. Op-Ed readers had a right to know that Gruber was receiving a generous consulting fee from the Obama administration–regardless of whether he thought it biased him. By Gruber’s standard no one would ever report their consulting contracts and disclosure would be a joke.
In one fell swoop Krugman lumps an observation with a mountain of supporting evidence with the allegations of the birthers and deathers. Sounds quite similar to some of the DK trolls that were hanging around a few weeks back.
I just made a contribution to Marcy at https://secure.firedoglake.com/page/contribute/MarcyWheeler
Thank you, Marcy!
Also, when I clicked on the link to the new petition to Obama (Fully disclose the use of taxpayer money to promote health care reform) on FDL’s front page, it sent me to the earlier petition to Congress (No Public Option? No Mandate.).
If there’s an error, please fix it.
Thank you so much for everything you do!
Saw your reply in Marcy’s defense at Krugman’s place. Great defense! Thanks!
I still don’t get any progressives defending, much less endorsing this bill. I thought progressives endorsed Single Payer. Well, if you think the insurance and PHARMA industries were just too much to take on with a 60 seat majority and a huge majority in the House, just WAIT until this bill takes affect. This bill sets them up to be even HARDER to beat, and eventually get to Single Payer. In essence, this bill is setting these guys up to become the next TBTF industry.
So again, how can any progressive endorse a bill that, in essence, drives a stake through the heart of Single Payer once and for all? Because anybody believing Single Payer will be easier to achieve after this bill becomes law might also want to look into some ocean front property for sale in Kansas. I hear the rates are good, what with the whole real estate bubble bursting and all.
Those economists sure do love each other’s brilliant work. But economics is not a science. It is the study of who owns what, and how the wealthy can steal more. Gruber’s “simulation” claims to predict the cost of the Obama corporate health care. Gruber, you might want to simulate the successful Canadian system.
I do not think Gruber or Krugman or Geithner predicted much correctly. They failed to predict:
—10% unemployment and when and if full employment will ever happen again
—The toxic effects of toxic investments, such as CDO’s where the international Banksters make bets on failure of companies, rather than investing in, for example solar energy
—The Goldman/Paulson Heist, based on lies and with taxpayer billions going to international bankster thieves
—The disaster of taxpayer subsidies for corporations to outsource American jobs to other countries
—The economic consequences of criminal wars that bankrupt the country and profit only the most wealthy
—The neo-conservative conspiracy to destroy the sovereignty of the United States and give our government powers to multinational corporations.
Actually the last point has happened, our government is controlled lock, stock and barrel by the Bilderbergers and the Dee Cee neo-cons. But Gruber is a PAID SHILL propagandist for the haealth insurance companies. If Krugman wants a blog war over the “fake scandals” of the Dee Cee Village paid shills, then bring it on, fool!
FDL does not need fake scandals, because there are too many genuine scandals. I guess Krugman has joined those other PAID SHILLS who have been attacking this website for months.
Savings would only translate into wage increases in a perfectly competitive market. With unemployment above 10%, how much leverage do workers have?
I made precisely that point in a response to that blog post of his. Needless to say, he has ignored the point. His style appears to be to ridicule any point that is made that’s clearly wrong, and ignore the rest.
Thank you. I suspect, if the past is any guide, he’ll ignore the points I made.
This outrageous!!!!
What is Krugman trying to hide?
Let’s find out who has been paying him!
I’m offended…I’m a very serious Progressive
and I want to know about this health care bill
I’m for single payer…
this health care bill smells like more crony capitalism.
Give me a break…a law forcing people to pay insurance premiums?
doesn’t even make common sense.
You go Ms Wheeler…..I read FDL more than HuffPost now thanks to the Gruber story.
I’m a Princeton grad that would support booting Krugman out if he can’t justify this attempt at censorship, and if I were an MIT grad I would be steamed about the shame Gruber brought to MIT.
Dean Baker is not one of the easily swayed and is usually spot on with respect to issues around the housing bubble, it’s causes and reasonable solutions. If Dean Baker were given a place at the table we would either see a few real solutions or at the very least some interesting discussions. Never going to happen.
As we’ve said all along, there’s no point in further compromise because the public option is the compromise. But the press is trying to paint it as totally far out and impossible because that’s what the insurance lobby wants us to believe. (It’s not just congresscritters that are bought off with lobbyist money, y’know.)
I agree that yes he should’ve disclosed and that Krugman was misstating the situation. But I also have to agree with Krugman that making this a scandal that questions the heart of healthcare reform (see right sidebar and petition) is just over the top. And yes quite right wingish. Apparently any research done for the White House is a disinformation campaign? The call-to-action that FDL is making is hardly being a messenger.
The only way I can think this would make it easier for single payer, or some other finance model that’s radically different from the one we’re using now, is that it will eventually show the futility of this sort of approach. I’m not willing to wait that long, frankly, and I’m not at all sure the result of that later effort will be any more fruitful, but that’s probably how progressives who favor this legislation can justify it to themselves. It’s a semi-plausible scenario.
The Obama administration could quickly put this to rest by releasing all the data Gruber generated for them, so we can see if what he presented to the public was spin.
I’m not holding my breath.
It’s also “left-wingish” by that logic. We said the same thing about Armstrong Williams back in 2005, with just as much justification.
Yep, I relied heavily on Marcy’s comments when I was putting together all the links in the post (took me much of the weekend).
I haven’t read everything about this issue, but one thing that sticks out for me is the “optics,” as Washington types say. If the White House paid me three-quarters of a million bucks, I might back their idea of health care “reform” too. The appearance is that this is Bush administration tactics. Remember Armstrong Williams? He only got paid $240,000.
If they’re shooting at the messengers then Jane and Marcy will need to down naginata and instead draw teppo and ammo from stores…
Wages would just get bid up, like magic. Just like the minimum wage always causes unemployment.
An economist (David Card?) did a study on a town which straddled the idaho/washington border. The side with a higher min wage had no change in unemployment.
After that, he stopped getting invites from fellow economists. Never stray outside the orthodoxy.
Between the villagers taking care of their own and the Obots we are running out of allies.
Prof. Krugman is treating Marcy and FDL to the kind of mild, understatedly vicious tit-for-tat that is common to Ivy League faculty lounges and “debates” in esteemed journals. He is defending himself in the guise of defending Gruber, and defending them both from upstarts. His is a good, if modest, example of why Henry Kissinger once quipped that academic politics were so fierce because the stakes were so low.
Here, however, the stakes are not low, in that the debate is about a once-in-a-generation opportunity to enact fundamental reforms, an opportunity that is being squandered, while being hidden from view under descriptions like, “the best possible outcome”. (Perhaps, but for whom?)
Marcy was nuanced and fair in her criticism of Prof. Krugman yesterday. And formal posts here, if not all commentators on them, have been pointed and specific in their criticism of a) Gruber’s indiscretion, and b) the wider political game being played by the White House, in which Gruber has enthusiastically joined.
The false equivalency, suggesting that FDL’s work is comparable to emotion-laden, fact-free blogs from the right, is unworthy of Mr. Krugman. Does he need a reminder of how cold it is outside of the faculty lounges at Princeton or MIT or the smoking rooms inside the Beltway?
The vast majority of Americans who vote for Democrats want a public option.
The majority of all Americans want a public option.
There was a public option in the House’s bill.
A majority of US Senators said they favored a public option, though they apparently do not.
Obama said repeatedly that he favored a public option, though he obviously does not.
We’re not getting a public option because Obama and Senate Democrats sold us out, not because a public option was totally far out or impossible.
For Sure!! Hey Facts Speak the TRUTH!! Go Marcy!!!
i read both of these papers and the cbo reports they were based on and i’m pretty sure gruber used the cbo numbers in a way that the cbo itself said they shouldn’t be used. gruber’s other source was an AHIP (insurance industry lobby) study about how premiums had supposedly gone down in MA after our 2006 reform (some background links here).
i confess i called gruber an idiot more than once after that. but then, i am an intemperate commenter.
marcy, on the other hand was exceedingly temperate as well as fair and even handed.
krugman does indeed owe marcy an apology. and after that i’d like an apology for the
crappyless than stellar economic public policy advice his profession has allowed to pass unchallenged.C’mon, folks, it was only 3/4 of a million bucks. That’s like what you or I would tip the Sky Cap to folks like that. You can’t expect them to see this as a “real” conflict.
And even if it is, so what? The important thing is to pass a bill. Any bill. Just pass something for Gaia’s sake!!!
Anyone who disagrees is un-American – possibly a fascist – and should just shut their mouth!!
I’ve always thought Krug was a bright tool, but a tool nonetheless. But then, I voted for McCain, so my judgment is questionable.
I have a simple test Krugman can try. Whenever I saw any Gruber-inspired support for the financial benefits of HCR, I always had this “that doesn’t seem right to me” reaction in my head. I just sort of wrote Gruber off as yet another academic who wasn’t understanding the real-world implications.
And then I found out he was being paid for his rosy pronouncements. Everything made more sense. So I ask Mr. Krugman, how is it any different or better than the paid military analysts on the TV who make money promoting more war?
What we have here is the beginnings of the long overdue discussion about how movement politics is not only utterly destroying politics; it’s also infected academia and poisoned the well of objective research.
The evidence is clear from reading all the Gruber threads, for many, it’s accepted as a fact of life that academic ‘experts’ are more often than not, co-opted by the corporations and political parties that pay for their lucrative contracts and grants, and those of us who insist on demonstrable objectivity by analysts are considered out of touch with reality.
This same line of thinking is what drives the climate change deniers, they can’t conceive of any such thing as an objective scientific opinion; they believe that consensus is something you buy.
krugman seems pretty protective of anyone in the financial industry
I know he supported and probably still supports bernanke
Krugman’s post contains two links at the top; the first goes to Marcy’s first post on the non-disclosure, and the second is a generic link to FDL, which at this moment takes Krugman’s readers to . . . this post while it’s still on front page. Heh.
You are right — he is defending himself in defending Gruber.
If one believes recent statements by President Obama he never advocated a public option during the 2008 campaign.
Do you really believe the White House does not deliberately misinform the public when they think it advances their agenda?
the price of the pre-compromise. wouldn’t it be lovely to have the press painting sp as totally far out instead?
Temptingfate, You’re right. Baker’s record speaks for itself, which I now understand is why he was excluded from the Dems’ gathering on Economics during the campaign!
I guess you could call it research, except it is worthless research. We have noticed this for quite a long time. You would think that “We Dont Get Fooled Again”, after being lied to about Wars and Bailouts. Krugman, Gruber and Geithner are trying to fool us again. But Gruber got hundreds of thousands of dollars, of taxpayer money, and concealed that fact. Gruber was rewarded not for his bogus “simulation”, but for his disinformation campaign.
excellent point.
Wow, Krugman has sunk pretty low by changing a question about disclosure to a personal attack on Jane, Marcy and FDL.
The fact that Marcy’s work is influential enough to warrant an Opinion piece in the NYT from a Nobel Laureate speaks to her truth-seeing ability.
How is lawfully hiring someone to run simulations and write academic papers on the subject the same thing as illegally hiring a propagandist?
All these Obama admin guys are acting like greenhorns. If Gruber was “all that” he would know to milk his connections using a cost-plus contract like Dick’s sole-source buddies did. All he got was a lousy 400k. snark
Mr. K has to recognize that the use of Gruber’s output without proper disclosure is tactically very similar to Cheney “planting” stories in the NYT, then referring to them as authoritative proof of something later on. FDLers should realize (as I’m sure everyone does) that the QUALITY of Gruber’s reports are in no way comparable to Cheney’s planted fictions.
I’m sure Mr. Gruber’s work is as accurate as possible, given the input data and parameters supplied by his sponsors. Like “studies” paid for by the industries which plan to use them for PR or marketing purposes. Like a study paid for by a lumber company which explains why cutting down forests is good for people and the environment.
Still, it’s the secrecy of it all, the behind the back, “mum’s the word” approach from the administration which promised transparency which is the scandal. There’s nothing wrong with government-funded studies; why were they hiding that?
But isn’t it great the someone like Krugman feels that he must defend himself against Marcy! I like it. She must have rattled him somewhat.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.”
Go Marcy…!
The silver lining in being bluntly slammed by someone whose views are often revered on these pages is that it gets FDL a lot more press. Perhaps readers will come and see for themselves whether Ms. Wheeler or Mr. Krugman have the stronger arguments. Perhaps Dr. Krugman would accept an invitation to debate the point with Marcy in a live chat.
Krugman’s commentary here is a useful reminder of the kind Glenn Greenwald often gives: it is wise to support the politician’s actions, but unwise simply to support the politician or his speeches. The same applies to economists and pundits.
An interesting question, that would best be answered by debating the facts of the statements of the White House. This whole story seems to be playing out a “follow the money” Watergate fantasy with very little substance to the implied acquisitions of disinformation and propaganda.
(though again I think Gruber and the White House acted improperly, but I don’t think it was a grand sinister plot successfully executed…)
Haven’t read the comments, but let me throw out that Hugh, selise & I were pretty persistent in asking Krugman why he thought O’s economics team were capable, despite the fact that they were the architects of the deregulation that caused the mess. That was when he was here for a book salon in December 08. He ignored those qs for quite awhile, but finally caved in and mentioned that he had been in meetings with those people and thought they were solid citizens, reminding that Bernanke was the one who had hired him at Princeton, not addressing the substance of our Qs. I suspect Krugman may not have forgotten his experience here.
I think marcy made enough waves that krugman got a call to provide some push back from someone they believe has “progressive clout”
he does, however he spent that capitol by supporting and contued support for the the failed policies of bernanke
marcy made great points and the only way they found to address those points was to say, “it didn’t matter”
brilliant paul!
is that all you got?
Way to change the subject.
The controversy is over Gruber’s failure to disclose his role when penning op/eds, something which his contracts with various media outlets requires him to do.
If that disclosure had been made, he would have been free to shill to his hearts content.
Do you believe the tobacco industry hired all those “scientists” to just do studies and research too?? Or were they “hired” to manufacture studies that had a pre-determined outcome?
And if you believe the latter in the case of scientists being hired by the tobacco industry, then why can’t you see the similartiy applicable to a “scientist” being hired by the White House to manufacture simulations that come up with a pre-determined outcome?
And if you believe in the former regarding the “scientists” hired by the tobacco industry, well, I hear there’s some real fine investment opportunities for ocean front property in Kansas.
Actually, if you’re referring to Gruber, it is a lot of money to “folks like that”. It’s a couple of man-years in wages, even for highly paid professionals. And it was issued as a sole-source, no-bid contract.
To the federal government, OTOH, it’s chicken feed. That’s what people need to comprehend about this – there’s a big disparity in this relationship. If Gruber produces output that the HHS, or the Obama Administration, finds unsatisfactory, he gets no more of that money. That’s a big incentive to get it “right”, so to speak. The HHS, though, can shop around for “experts” who are willing to find the results they want to find.
That would be a legitimate distinction concerning a run of the mill issue of no particular notoriety or public importance. On the signature legislative issue for this president’s first term, that’s another dog in Dr. Krugman’s pack that won’t hunt.
What I don’t understand is why Krugman raised the stakes by putting his name to this academic scandal in the NYT…
seems like very poor judgment to me.
Wheeler and Hamsher should be grateful!!
Those who would excuse ‘our side’ for using paid shills, would do well to contemplate the words of Jane Addams;
“The essence of immorality is the tendency to make an exception of myself”
i love his phrase “the folks at firedog lake”. no question about the triangulating motives of the establishment, corporate dems against anything or anyone publishing a message by and for the people. Krugman is deeply, deeply invested in the neo liberal status quo and it has little to do with his being smart, or competent or a “good guy”. its all business. when he made too much noise over certain details of the bailout, and the lack of any real forthcoming financial regulation, they jerked the silver chain attached his diamond studded collar, and now krugman is fully on-board, which is his natural place. firedog lake is performing a vital function, one the MSM started to abbrogate back in the 80′s and has by now fully abandoned. So maybe Marcy Wheeler is wrong, im sure it could happen, but when the Nobel Laureate economist is unable to respond to her case with anything but whiny name calling ( calling us “just like the right wing” is only name calling) and un-truths and half truths, we know we are getting deep into the truth of it.
in most cases, “bad publicity is good news”
write that one down
Way to not follow the subject. :) I was responding to a comparison with Armstrong Williams.
Good post Jane and good work Marcy. Keep it up.
I usually agree with Krugman but in this case I agree with Jane that he’s reflexively defending one of his brethren, and in the cheapest of ways. He knows better. He should apologize.
I noticed one of the commenters at the NYT described FDL as a radical fringe of the Democratic Alliance.
Nice try, progressive advocacy does not require a pledge of fealty to the Democratic Party.
Better attention to government contracting rules? That’s the only difference I can see. The rest is just as patently dishonest.
I have defended Krugman on this site in the past as a better economic expert than some of the bloggers here who have diminished his advice. But in this case, I agree with FDL and Wheeler and it seems that Krugman and the Times are again defending the establishment and carrying the WH water. Good on you, Ms Wheeler.
On the other hand, in an unrelated matter to the Gruber affair, I’ll take this opportunity to advice my fellow commenters and the FDL writers not to simply become “attack dogs” against anyone who disagrees with your views, lest you really become like the extreme right wingers. When a progressive like myself reads criticism of the Nation Magazine and occasional bad language used to attack politicians left and right, I am dismayed and not as supportive. I think there is enough talent and smarts here to tackle the issues professionally and profoundly. So keep using it.
Cheers.
Oh come on. The Clintons, Rubin were the architects of the repeal of “Glass-Stegal (sp)”. Not so much Summers and Geithner. Not that Summers and Geithner have done a good job. They have not. But the conversion of commercial banks into traders is strictly the work of the Clintons and Rubin. I remember that you were all enamoured with the 3 trillion surplus of the Clintons with no healthcare and the lowest level of domestic government spending since Reagan.
“…utterly destroying politics…”
I’m for that!! Let’s do it!!
Do you truly believe the WH incapable of, or disinclined to engage in purposeful deception?
He’ll probably apologize profusely, the next time FDL has him over for a live chat, but you won’t hear about it in the NYT.
If, as it appears, the HHS grant came about because Gruber was to be a covert mouthpiece for a policy that the Obama administration wanted promoted then the actual source of the grant is irrelevant. If the administration used the department of education to pay the for someone to speak for them the decision would still have been made by the Obama administration.
Krugman is just pulling out the the baffle ‘em with bull response.
And not *only* ALL that …
The wording for the May 21st presolicitation cites *alternative* *specifications* from the Presidents proposal (as quoted by Jane).
This is really important. This means that the Presidents version is the subject of the contract ~ it has *nothing* to do with any earlier work by Gruber (altho it makes it easy that he was on board all along). Point being this is a contract for the WH version only.
And that is another point that Krugman ignores: Krugman makes it sound like Gruber is using his *own* work and that work is *right* anyway being the leading authority and all (that many of us have never heard of) so no harm, no foul if he *lends* his research to the WH. For a price.
Krugman needs to do some fact-checking.
Thanks, Jane. Totally solid!
It’s a crying shame that the public health people have been through too many budget cuts and are working too damn hard on providing health care to the indigent and staving off an H1N1 epidemic. You people are making all the wrong enemies with this.
he had a problem answering real questions, seemd to pass over them with no problems what so ever
Summers was Rubins right hand man.
You say:
“But I also have to agree with Krugman that making this a scandal that questions the heart of healthcare reform (see right sidebar and petition) is just over the top. And yes quite right wingish. Apparently any research done for the White House is a disinformation campaign? The call-to-action that FDL is making is hardly being a messenger.”
Well now, that is a simplification that changes the argument.
Lets look at a hypothetical situation.
Suppose that you pick up your morning paper and read the letters to the editor.
Suppose many of these letters are in favor of granting a large tax break to a company that wants some government incentives.
Would you think it fair to find out at some point that all these letters were written by employees of the company wanting government money?
Would you think it fair that none of the letter writers disclosed who was paying them? Does it matter that they wrote the letters ‘for free’ on their off hours, but signed the letters; and upon publication the employer knew what had been done?
What about the fact that some of the letter writers were actually involved with writing the proposal for government funding?
If you don’t see a problem in the hypothetical situation then you certainly don’t see a problem with the situation being discussed here.
If I am at an auction and the crowd suspects the presence of shill bidding it is an interesting place to be. This is especially so if the auction involves serious money.
The crowd is interested in the identification of the shills, for at future auctions their presence will lead to suspicions.
The crowd also trys to identify who is responsible for the presence of the shills auction co, auctioneer, seller etc.This will also be remembered.
Alright I’ll bite, what’s a Democratic Alliance and does membership come with a decoder ring?
Soooooooo. Rubin and your buddies the Clintons were the leaders on the repeal, Summers was just a lackey and still is.
I’m with you on the repeal of glass seagal but did clinton simply sign a bill that was clearly veto proof?
I believe that’s the case and if it is you cannot blame him you can blame congress for writing the bill
Learned scholars mistaking coincidence with causality? Impossible! Tax medical benefits makes insurance cheaper which makes wages go up has to be the stupidest proposition since the Laffer Curve.
This is kind of my point… it is this invoking of conspiracy theory type logic. Granted those scientist shills really were part of a CT for the tobacco industry. But I just don’t automatically believe in “person A works for person B with vested interest C, therefore everything person A does in support of C is shilling and likely dishonest”.
eg Frank33 at 49 has the start of what would be a more interesting point (eg real facts, not just innuendo). However to support the notion that HCR is all a bunch of baloney because of what this one academic/shill didn’t disclose (what the sidebar on this site says)… I don’t think you could persuade me of that. :) I hadn’t heard of Gruber before this.
The concerted release of announcements by Camp Obama touting Gruber’s work certainly points to how centrally they viewed his “disinterested” verification that their chosen policy had a benefit for the many, instead of the insurester few, a questionable claim in substance and much more so in degree. That is, the administration proposes feeding insuresters the whole cheery pie, while giving the public a few pits today and promises of their pie tomorrow.
Everyone’s position inside that closed circle was enhanced by reinforcing the perception that Gruber’s work remained disinterested. Obviously, that claim has been legitimately challenged.
Gruber’s work may withstand the challenge, though the WH remains tarnished by having one more bit of its propagandistic theater go awry. Mr. Obama would do well to repay his Chicago patrons by giving them back Rahm and finding a competent COS.
Hey, I’m still waiting for my check from Soros, so if I were you I’d get my own decoder ring.
here’s what gruber needed to do to distance himself from his contract;
he needed to demonstrate his model with historical numbers to prove the accuracy of his model
THEN he needed to input the president’s numbers without changing anything
but he needed to point out he was paid by the president and then he needed to prove why that didn’t matter
did he do this?
not so much
Tell that to Harvard, once they climb out of the hole Summers put them in of course.
My mistake, the actual phrase was “Democratic coalition.” From a comment by Stevie Blunder:
Didn’t I already respond to that?
Can you believe this? This “academic” is paid almost one million dollars to rationalize policies that have already been bought and paid for by the health care industrial complex through campaign contributions to the very folks in Washington charged with legislating, signing into law and then enforcing government programs that will aid and abet in the accummulation of vast profits for the masters of the universe on Wall Street.
And you can bet Mr. Krugman’s own paycheck is far, far North of the average American struggling to cope with health care calamities the new legislation will do little or nothing to amerliorate.
Krugman is one of Phil Ochs’s “Love Me, Love Me, I’m a Liberal”, “progressives”. Oh, he’ll huff and puff for “reform”, and even for taking on Wall Street for the little guy from time to time. But when someone like Marcy Wheeler digs a little too deep and exposes just how widespread crony capitalism is…how it hires alleged independent “experts” to justify flagrantly corporate agendas…he doth protest.
A little too much, as it were.
this is correct ONLY if person “A” informs everyone of his conflict of interest, THEN they are not shilling, otherwise they simply
are
Whatever Krugman is, he is a member of the Establishment (remember that 60s term, Paul?), and “liberal” or not, he wants to spank FDL, and particularly Marcy Wheeler, because she had the temerity to challenge the way things are done in Washington. “Follow the money”? No, Krugman tells Marcy to STFU.
Seems like FDL has been getting the heat for awhile now. But I know Marcy and the rest here won’t shut up. Krugman is part of the problem, as his support of Bernanke demonstrates.
I saw the same kind of shenangigans in my own field (psychology), where the American Psychological Association fought to have the fact that their blue-ribbon panel on national security and psychological ethics was in fact stacked with military types.
The Establishment wants to keep anyone from documenting that it is in fact an establishment, with ties of association by organization and money, meant to produce pre-ordained “policy” (or supposed policy “choices”) and thereby control the world of politics itself.
Krugman will never apologize. He’s shown who he really is. And the fight for a country that has a political apparatus that is actually accessible and responsive to its own citizens gets turned up yet another notch.
Meanwhile, over 3/4 million dollars for a sole-source, no-bid contract. Sweet. Gruber just forgot to mention it in his 800-word essays.
Give ‘em hell, Marcy. They’re used to getting blowjobs from the press, not actual reporting.
If you think a potential conflict of interest that was not disclosed is real innuendo, then you had better go look at the ethical guidelines of just about any professional organization. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
And I have addressed why that is already in this thread.
I don’t think that quite captures Summers role in the repeal of those legislative safeguards or the marked continuity of economic staffing among Democratic administrations, with changes in personnel but not advice from Goldman when Republicans sit in the White House.
Characterize Summers any way you want. He was Treas. Sec. Geithner didn’t regulate Goldman Sachs and all the other Wall St. crooks, which was the job of the NYFed. And Bernanke, we know, was completely obtuse to the FRB’s role in the bubble and still is. Quite a team.
It’s ok if the corp presence is funneled through the govt at taxpayer expense. What’s so hard to understand about that?
If so, I missed it and if it resembles your other comments it was likely evasive.
“How is lawfully hiring someone to run simulations and write academic papers on the subject the same thing as illegally hiring a propagandist?”
If Gruber had only ran simulations and wrote academic papers, there would be no scandal.
But Gruber also wrote op-ed pieces endorsing healthcare reform proposals without identifying that he was being paid by the Obama administration to run simulations regarding healthcare reform proposals. See here
By doing so, Gruber created an appearance of impropriety by the Obama administration (not necessarily an ethical lapse of his own), which promised transparency but seems to have delivered more of what we saw in the last Bush administration. I don’t know about you, but when I read an opinion piece by an academic, I tend to assume that it is, in fact, an opinion piece and not a paid advertisement.
Well than either you’re overly naive or I’m overly cynical, but we’re going to just agree to disagree here.
Because if I read a scientific “study” that says global warming is all a bunch of hogwash, and the “scientist” that wrote it received $400,000 from the Oil industry, then I’m immediately going to discount that “study.”
Likewise, if healthcare economist writes papers that says a certain health care plan is the next best thing since sex, and I find out he was paid by the very President that is trying to sell that plan to the American people, then I am also going to discount it.
And whether I’m overly cynical or you’re overly naive doesn’t really matter when, IMO, he should’ve disclosed this financial arrangement UP FRONT so that I can choose to be overly cynical or you can choose to overly naive, whichever the case may be.
precisely, and you know the “DLC” types, the true wretches of neo liberal sell out eletism, are probably glad to have us as a trianulating instrument, a rehtorical “speed square” if you will. as long as we stick to the truth, and engage each other and the malfesance of the establish-ists, we will make a real difference.
I remember this answer; when asked about the fact that only liars and idiots seem to be allowed to report about the economy in the MSM;
So now, you’re not a serious person unless you’re wrong about the ethical imperative to disclose the possibility of money induced bias.
You make two different observations that are unrelated to this post. Health service providers may be working hard. Neither these political debates nor this proposed legislation will improve their lot. It will primarily improve the lot of already highly profitable insurers.
FDL is proudly not in Rahm Emanuel’s veal pen. If Rahm and the tradmed care enough to rebut reasoned views here, that’s a sign we’re doing the right thing. We don’t buy into the love ‘em or leave ‘em, agree with ‘em or get out horse race descriptions – beloved of the tradmed, parties in power and all White Houses – of what public debate about fundamental government policy should be.
Not to mention the feedback loop of the quotables making their way to Reps and Senators for their use in debate and floor speeches.
By the way, how many of you know that Kathleen Sebelius was invited to attend the 2008 Bilderberg conclave?
Kenneth Vogel from Politico:
A handful of high-ranking Obama administration officials this month delivered private briefings at the annual invitation-only conference held by an elite international organization known as the Bilderberg group.
The closed meeting of some of the most powerful business, media and political leaders in North America and Western Europe heard from top Obama diplomats James Steinberg and Richard Holbrooke, who detailed the administration’s foreign policy, while economic adviser Paul Volcker, chairman of President Obama’s Economic Recovery Advisory Board, also gave a presentation at the heavily guarded seaside resort in Greece that hosted the event…
Trust me: The health care industrial complex is deeply embedded in all this. No less so than the Obama administration itself.
Shilling requires concealing the connection between the shill and the beneficiary of whatever the shill is doing.
In evaluating any such case, not particularily this one:
A. Is there a mixing of interests?
B. Has the connection between the beneficiary been concealed.
C. If there has been concealment, is it inadvertent, or perhaps purposeful, maybe even requiring false statements or declarations?
D. Did the concealment have any significant effect?
Oh, well now that I know about the cult stuff I’ll have to assume that either this is a bad place or I’m a cultist.
Nice to see well argued explanations from expert sources. Since it wasn’t moderated out I suppose I’ll have to assume it’s him speaking sotto voce. What with them being an enemy cult and all.
Jane, at the risk of severe flaming from the regulars, my read of Krugman was one of emphasis. Not that there wasn’t a problem with disclosure, but that perhaps it’s not is nefarious as FDL is making out. Krugman:
In your defense of Marcy, you slightly misstate Krugman’s position which shifts the emphasis and supports a different conclusion than if you don’t misrepresent him:
His point is that there is no one as expert in micromodeling the impacts of HCR and therefore if you want to understand those impacts, who else would you give a research grant to?
Krugman’s position is that FDL is unfairly impugning Gruber’s intentions and (academic) integrity by your read of the meaning of the lack of disclosure. He posits a less politically-driven interpretation which has at least as much evidence as yours. Neither position is conclusively proven, as each is based on a different interpretation of the facts. You may end up being right about Gruber in the end (or not , but I don’t think Krugman owes anyone an apology. He’s not the one impugning character, just questioning the political wisdom of overselling your case.
I admire your commitment and tireless work in support of real HC reform and progressive policies. Your tactics and rhetorical style, less so.
Krugman is protecting the main party in the USA the Business Party
The Dem Party and Rep Party both work for the Business Party and they hate the public.
It is time that the masses OF USA wake up and learn that their govt has been stolen from them.
Madison ave, now markets politicians like toothpaste.
Obama was the Hope and CHange Candidate
Bush was the nice guy, you could drink a beer with.
The USA masses have no clue what OBAMA stands for. Obama is a product from Madison Ave. Obama never tells the masses what he believes and what he will fight for, he just talks and yells a lot about Hope and Change.
FDL and others must connect candidates like Obama to issues.
for example.
Obama is against the Public Option
Obama is against drug importation
Obama is for more War just like Bush
Obama is for the Patriot Act
Until you tie these Madison Ave. candidates to issues, the USA masses will always get HOPE A DOPE!
You’re dealing with a more nuanced troll than average but the giveaway is it’s refusal to acknowledge that Gruber’s lack of disclosure IS the ONLY issue. The talk of conspiracy theories, etc. is just a smokescreen.
summers was sec of the treasury (rubin having already left for citi to make his hundred million) for both the repeal of glass-steagall and passage of the cfma 2000.
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/3828
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2141
and from his wikipedia entry:
Clinton could have at least provided a signing statement leaving Glass-Steagal in force …*g*
First I distinctly recall your touting the “Clinton surplus” during the primary season. And now Obama should be blamed for hiring Summers and Geitner and for not taking on Wall Street and Rubin and the the Clinton Wall Street agenda during the first year of his presidency? I think not. Obama had no choice but Summers and his gopher Geithner. It is about time for progressives to focus on what the problem is and the problem is the fact that we have had Clinton and Bush presidencies for the last 20 years. And it will take time to unwind and correct that damage.
My point is that you are attacking the system that provides them with funding, at a time when the states, counties, and municipalities are cutting, cutting, cutting. You are attacking their flagship organizations (NBER, e.g.). You are attacking the government agencies they interact with (NIH, HHS,…etc.). You are attacking their methods, without being able to provide your own numbers.
They see you as a group of people playing bull in a china shop with a structure that you don’t understand, but which pays their livelihoods at a time when they are getting tossed out in the street. Don’t ever expect to get their votes, or support, no matter what kind of wonderful plan you come up with in the future. You weren’t there when they asked you think first before creating a scandal.
signing statements have no force of law
they were originally intended simply as comments, it wasn’t until bush took office that the attempt was made to use the statement as law
it’s not law in any shape or form, the only force it has is by submission of congress
but anyway, under clinton and everyone before him, signing statements were only commentary
i havent seen that hapening here. i dont think the present editorial staff will allow that to happen here. we are free to say whatever we want in the comments section and there are all kinds of cranks who do. starting with me. I think it would be a greater danger to go for “balance” or to hold back to appear “fair and balanced” . that is the idiotic error into which all of the MSM has fallen and as a result we live in a society where there is no objective right and wrong only institutionalized respect for some phony etiquet. did you ever know the kind of person who feels like they can say the most vicious, malevolent, and or factually untrue and completely misleading things, as long as they dont swear or call names. Well those people are full of shit and they are just as full of shit when they have editorial power at a major magazine or newspaper.
After the mother ship takes us to our destination I hope it has universal health care…
Well said.
This somewhat aloof discussion of theoretical ethics is interesting, but… seriously, does anyone actually believe the Senate health care bill would reduce the deficit? I’m a big Obama supporter (waves credentials hopefully) but I always assumed that forecast was too rosily optimistic, more or less a propaganda point. But the opposition uses a tremendous amount of propaganda, and as a result, our side may have to do the same.
Interesting to see that you approve of foxes guarding chicken coops.
Anyhoo, all that is OT. The point of my original comment was that Krugman may not have fond memories of his chat here.
Ralph, Seriously, did you bother reading this post before submitting your comment? Obviously not. Take a few minutes to read it before you submit another comment please. thanks.
Every statment here is non-reality based. NIH employees are now routinely paid off by big PhRMA. With Rahm Emanuel’s brother’s help, corporate medicine is giving big bribes to government health researchers. The H1N1 influenza has not even been close to an epidemic. There has been a slight rise in flu infections, and a handful of fatalities. But IT IS NOT AN EPIDEMIC.
Oh please do not tell me how the indigent have been so well cared for by Corporate Medicine. It is a crime to be poor in this country and being poor means no health care for millions.
Finally tell me who these “wrong enemies” are? I am thinking they are the enemies of the American people.
The comment equating FDL’s documentation of Gruber’s disclosure failure with the fake scandals of the right-wing is straight out of Krugman’s column. It seems pretty straightforward and does not require delicate parsing.
All correct. But Rubin and the Clintons were at the helm, especially Rubin spearheaded the entire efort. The Clintons, believe it or not, touted Rubin as the best SOT since Alexander Halmilton.
My “tactic.” Well, my “tactics” don’t involve propping up straw man arguments:
Since neither I nor Marcy ever questioned giving Gruber the grant, you’re defending Krugman’s right to protect Gruber from accusations nobody is making.
The bigger “question” is why you’d say “krugman is not impugning character” when he calls Marcy’s legitimate questions a “fake scandal,” no better than a “right wing smear.”
Nobody here has shot anything like that ad-hominum at either Krugman or Gruber. It’s been a fair and well-researched discussion of disclosure.
The “tactic” you seem to dislike is questioning the work of sacred cows of the left, as if the very act of doing so amounts to a “smear.” Yes, that’s a “tactic,” and it’s deliberate. They play their part in a system that keeps power at the top and the money flowing in that direction. And until people are willing to apply the same yardstick to “our” side that they do to the other side, the moral underpinnings of all critique is going to be suspect.
first of all, the repeal of glass seagall didn’t have anything to do with the surplus or paying down the debt
this is proven by the fact that bush spent all that and then more then all president’s combined even though the “short term benefits” of the repeal wer still stong, actually stronger then under clinton
your claim fails
sorry
and second of all, as I said before, I believe clinton signed a veto proof bill, that makes it congress’s fault not clinton’s
Mr. Krugman, to his credit and unlike many of his pundit peers, is frequently nuanced and understated. I think a fact- and leadership-starved public greatly appreciates that.
I disagree with the apparent intent of his comments. They were a quiet snip to the grad students to quiet down and get back to studying. (He “fully intends” to cite Dr. Gruber’s work in future.) The criticism was unwelcome as much for being published as, in his view, for being too strident. But I think he conflates three things that need to be separated:
1. Dr. Gruber’s obligation to disclose, which he admits, in an offhand way, was not met.
2. Dr. Gruber’s work may be valid. Whether it is biased because of his remuneration or the incorrectness of his assumptions are necessary parts of the debate, the holding of which is delayed by Gruber’s failure to disclose.
3. The way the WH has used this work in its PR offensive to pass the kind of insurance industry non-reform generally, and to tax full coverage insurance plans as “unaffordable luxuries” in particular. As that tax will work out in the real world, it is far more disadvantageous to unions and union company employees than to top executives.
It is disadvantageous to citizens in general, too, because it is specifically designed to push down the expectation of what constitutes adequate or optimal care. Movement in that direction only helps governments lower subsidies and under-regulated insurers improve profits. It doesn’t improve the health care of Americans. Politically, it achieves rationed health care – the bugaboo the right claimed would come from single payer or a public option – while doing nothing to drive down costs. Not a sustainable policy.
wow thats some real hairplitting. so he (secretly) took almost a million dollars from the government, to push their idea of “reform”. but its ok since he more or less felt the same way they did (except, apparently when he was paid to do a study for the state of california in 2007 and reached different conclusion than those hes pushing now). Even though candiate obama promised “transparent” government and the WH went out of their way to push the image of involving the electorate in the process with all of those full of shit town hall TV events. its ok, cause he didnt break the law. well fuck. he didnt break the law and maybe he agreed with rahm and obama anyway, but if not for the constant reporting done by FDL all summer fall and winter on the sleazy and dishonest (if perfectly legal) way the they are shoving this down our throats, then we would all be just bleating and munching grass and wondering, how did we get here?
If there were a mixture of opinions from people who have done the work on this subject, and Gruber’s wasn’t at one extreme end of them, I might agree with that. Might. Gruber’s failure to disclose the relationship is still an ethical problem.
The problem is, it’s not. As selise pointed out earlier, even the CBO didn’t come up with these kinds of conclusions using what, presumably, are the same data. As with OldFatGuy’s reference to the oil industry and climate change, you have to wonder, given the circumstances of where Gruber is getting his money from.
In fact, I’d say the more at variance a scientist’s position is from mainstream thought in the field, the more important full disclosure is. The temptation to assume “nefarious” explanations is a natural one under the circumstances, and the best antidote is to disclose possible conflicts early, and to also disclose the work fully. Neither has been done here.
As Carl Sagan was fond of saying, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.
Let me highlight just one piece for you:
And it was clear that what they’d be getting from Gruber “would in all likelihood show what they had shown before: that taxing ‘Cadillac plans’ was the way to go.”
With respect, I don’t think we’re doing any of those things.
We are not attacking public health research funding. We are attacking its possible political abuse at the time it makes sense to do so: before legislation is enacted whose acceptance or popularity is influenced by that possible abuse.
Perhaps you may to be having a bit of a mischaracterization problem as well.
The question is not specifically about the models, however secretive or flawed they might be since no one has admitted to seeing anything but the results, but whether this is a case of paying a man three quarters of a million dollars (with perhaps some of that going his single researcher) not to do research but to promote Obama’s agenda. A position that required disclosure when he wrote various articles on the subject but which he choose not to do.
If there is a controversy, it could only come out with full disclosure of the circumstances and an understanding of the timeline. It is remotely possible that many, or all politicians, see nothing wrong with paying a person large amounts of taxpayer money to promote a political agenda. It is also the case that others may feel rightly offended. All the more so if the models, such as they may be, were more designed to bolster a political agenda as opposed to solve a real world problem.
People that disapprove of finding out the motivations and potential misdeeds of those that speak with authority are bound to run into someone that will use that weakness to their advantage.
I’m sorry to repeat this, but the link still isn’t working. From my comment @ 19:
I got the correct link in an email (already signed the letter!), but others may not have gotten that email and will need to rely on the link on the front page of FDL and FDL Action.
Please fix it. Thank you!
i thanked krugman for his shrillness.
and this, from your link to the krugman book salon:
…….
dear paul, if you read this thread, the american people need you to be shrill now just like you were during the bush administration. please don’t let us down.
I can do the purple sneakers but the stuff the males removed is a pretty high bar to climb over.
Who the fuck is talking about Corporate Medicine? Most of the funding to study and evaluate programs that help those who are never able to afford their health care (at public and non-profit hospitals clinics public drug courts, charity-based care and all the rest) comes from places like NIH. If you are too ignorant to know that, you shouldn’t be on the attack. Go see if Grover will pay for the homeless schizophrenics living under bridges. Thanks for attacking public health. Maybe next time you can directly go after the charities, NPOs and NGOs. Just wreck everything because you didn’t get what you wanted and you don’t have what it takes to take on Congress or to publish rebuttals in peer-reviewed journals.
Cujo, you rock!!!
Shameful, shameful for Krugman to attack Marcy.
I guess the DC “bubble” has extended its reach all the way up to Princeton NJ.
The ONLY issue is Gruber’s failure to disclose, as required by his contracts with media outlets.
If that requirement had been met, he could happily shill for the Senate bill 24/7.
All this talk of attacking systems, etc. is merely an attempt to change the subject.
So you think Krugman came away from the chat with warm & fuzzies about FDL? *g*
I’ll just add that I don’t question the award of the contract itself, either. At least, I’ll say that it could have been legitimate. There are many such contracts. It’s economically inefficient to award such contracts competitively.
The problem with how those results were discussed are twofold, at least from my limited vantage point:
1. Gruber didn’t fully disclose this relationship. As I wrote earlier, it’s reasonable to assume it could have an effect on his judgment.
2. The Obama Administration appear to have been trying to use Gruber’s work as a completely independent analysis, when in fact they were paying for it.
What actually affected Gruber’s judgment is just speculation. My guess is that the Obama Admin. probably hired him because they figured he’d give them the answers they wanted to hear. That’s only a guess, though. Unfortunately, it’s a reasonable guess, which is what makes Gruber’s work suspect.
Tell that to NBER, NEJM, or those funded by HHS.
There’s more at stake here than impugned character or academic niceties.
Krugman is complaining about people being mean to his buddy. Sorry about that Paul.
Marcy and Co. pointed out that this guy’s work was used to shape policy affecting us all in such a way as to advocate one solution (taxing middle-class health coverage) over another (public option & taxing the rich). The intended results of the advocacy were achieved as we see in the Senate bill. The Senate excise tax is now being used to supplant the real cost-containment measures which were built into the House bill. A solution opposed by most voters is being forced through based almost entirely upon one man’s report, the parameters of which were defined by the folks who paid for it (HHS & the WH). That’s a very major impact based on one guy’s say-so. The fact that Senators were bludgeoned with this as the only solution, and now ALL AMERICANS are stuck with it is very troubling in a lot of ways. Would all of those Senators have supported this had they known who bought the research? We’ll never know.
Looks like we’re somewhere between Stage Two and Stage Three.
it was over a year ago, maybe he didn’t even remember it. fwiw, i just reread my comments, and i don’t think they were out of line. but then i don’t think marcy is now either. so what do i know?
The actions of the Obama WH in this instance are quite similar to Bush/Cheney citing stories they had planted in the press as independent confirmation.
Actually I think it’s more than the disclosure, but much of the scrutiny this deserves flows from the failure to disclose.
The contentions drawn by Gruber from his ‘studies’ are weighted on the independence, or lack thereof, of the examiner. Suddenly finding out that Gruber failed to disclose his paid role, as the Times’ contract explicitly requires, I am left to ask two questions:
1) Why not disclose?
and
2) Why did the White House not qualify the studies they relied upon for their talking points, and the material distributed to Representatives and Senators for use in debate and floor speeches?
Well stated.
” The criticism was unwelcome as much for being published as, in his view, for being too strident.”
That is the problem for those who wish this had never been exposed and now wish it to be minimized away.
It has been published.
Whether it becomes more strident may depend upon whatever may be hidden away under the rocks now being overturned.
Actually, given the influence of Summers, Rubin, et. al., I think it’s fair to say the bubble extends all the way to New York City. Princeton’s just an exit off the turnpike.
thanks for the reminder of that, eCHAN.
I sure hope everone here hops over to Krugman’s piece and comments.
Play nice, now.
As a former academic, I can understand that Mr. Krugman is quick to defend other academicians. I could understand his objection if Ms. Wheeler had equated receipt of HHS grant money with lack of objectivity, since this would undermine much work in the academy. But I think Mr. Krugman has simply mised the point. It is the lack of disclosure and the specific contractual relationship that suggest lack of objectivity, not the mere fact of having accepted grant money.
To me, what Mr. Gruber did was akin to publishing without acknowledging all of his sources. Acknowledging the funding source for a piece of research supplies data that the reader needs to evaluate the work. For instance, the fact that a cancer study was funded by NIH might strengthen the claimed results, since NIH would be presumed to be neutral with respect to the results of the study. Disclosing that the study was funded by a cigarette or chemical company would might cause us to treat results favorable to the company with a little more caution while giving those unfavorable to the company a little more weight. But the effect would probably be small–we’d presume a certain, academic objectivity BECAUSE of the disclosure. But failing to disclose the company funding would, in all likelihood, destroy the credibility of the research.
Mr. Gruber’s failure to disclose so material a fact as White House sponsorship causes us–rightly–to deny him the presumption of objectivity due an academician. The omission does more damage to his credibility than would an inaccurate footnote or an uncited collaborator. The omission reduces the value of his work, makes his evidence less compelling, and–inevitably–raises questions about his academic integrity.
I also find it troubling that Mr. Gruber has presented himself and allowed himself to be presented as a disinterested academic when that has not, in fact, been his actual role. If he “developed a proprietary statistically sophisticated micro-simulation model” of the insurance business for the White House, then he was a contractor, NOT a neutral academician. He was hired to develop software to client specifications and produce the results expected by the client. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself (it’s what I do for a living). But it is not the same as giving the disinterested, objective, “expert” advice that an academic should give to all comers.
We ain’t scared.
IF they have been harmed, it was by Gruber’s failure to disclose, NOT by those pointing out the transgression.
This is where the problem is because the root of all our “progressive” problems is with the Clintons and not the Bushes. To excuse the Clinton administration for promoting the repeal of glass segall because Congress then passed the subject legislation is a bit disingenuous, is it not? To ignore the Clinton level of domestic government spending at Reagan levels to create the surplus in the first place is to ignore that the Clintons are the worst politicians claiming to be on the side of rightness and goodness, this country has ever experienced.
I only meant within the context of this thread. Yes, there are other important aspects (see my 149).
government spending on social projects is good leftdcin, it pays for itself with infrastructure and middle class progress
the wealthy do not suffer, they thrive as well, a win win for everyone
government spending on gifts to the wealthy the way reagan did it was the bad thing, in this the middle class declines and only the wealthy thrive
giving more money to people that have more money then they can spend equals a bad thing
glass seagal was congress’s fault, blaming clinton is just a tool you are using
we are not happy with clinton either though but for reasons most concervatives think were good
Where in that post does Krugman attack Marcy Wheeler? He doesn’t even mention that ninny’s name. He just explains why that line of attack is idiotic, but that is what we have come to expect from the “liberal” teabaggers.
Krugman clearly attacked the message, not the messenger. Seems like you guys just got owned big time by Krugman and are now crying like little babies.
The typical way a blogger takes responsibility. i.e. not at all. When you’re ready to step into the breach and provide the public health financing models that NBER does on projects where Gruber is the P.I., when you’re ready to replace the funding that public health programs derive by applying for the same kinds of grants and contracts you’re disparaging, let us all know. But you aren’t. Just another whiny libertarianesque site filled with people in the prime of life with employer health plans whining about any dime you ask of them. The people who really get down in the trenches and see to the health care of everybody that our current system is slamming and grinding under its wheels get their research money, their studies, and their paychecks from the organizations you’re going after. Many of them were for non-profit medicine, or single payer cores, or many of the other enshrined alternatives you love here long before you even knew how to spell health care. And they are what? Collateral damage?
Drops this debate into a nutshell, with room for Mr. Krugman to join in if he so chooses.
Here’s a link so you can start learning how to read.
NIH and NIMH have done great work for better health care. But the neo-cons now control the US government and corporations control health care. Check the link and do your own investigating of “Bioethicsist” Ezekial Emanuel. Ethics and an Emanuel. Who could have predicted?
If the Obama/Gruber Health Plan is passed, it is just the status quo and there will be more mentally ill and homeless people. If I could wreck this corporate fraud I would be honored because it is dreadful.
First paragraph of the Krugman column. I realize he is your tool of choice but you really should read more carefully.
Thanks for the heads-up!
He’s been referring to her work in at least two posts in the past twenty-four hours. (Thanks, Rat! Meant to reply to romo, but you beat me to it!)
I object to your referring to Marcy Wheeler as a “ninny”. Way out of line and troll-like. You should be banished to the wasteland of Politico for an eon or two.
With typical academic understatement, Mr. Krugman attacked the message and the messenger: That he drops in a few paragraphs between “Marcy Wheeler, FDL” and “fake scandal” is an art, not an omission.
If you want to comment, please read more carefully. If you want to troll, try harder.
Again, not an issue IF Gruber had fulfilled his legal obligation of disclosure when penning op/eds.
As the title of the post says, shoot the messenger.
By your logic no crime is ever committed until someone files a police report.
Conspiracy theorist bullshit.
Since others have done a good job of rebutting this, I’ll just make a couple of observations:
- Even by the standards of HHS, the contracts here are small potatoes. They are easily covered by the “slop” left in any major agency’s budget (I’m used to DoD, where the slop can be, shall we say, gargantuan). The head of HHS, the Secretary of HHS, is a political appointee, as are her deputy secretary(ies). This kind of money is easy to find.
- Arguments from consequences never impress me, particularly when they’re not based on much factual evidence. There is no more reason to suspect this will hurt other HHS efforts than to think it will help them. There are also plenty of other reasons to support HHS, most of them somewhere between good and “Are you kidding me? How could you not?”
A lousy piece of research done for political purposes, if that’s what this turns out to be, does no one any good except for the people it was expressly done for.
If HHS used the words “sole-source basis”, that says there are no sources elsewhere in the world meeting the needs of the Government, that there was a specification and no one could meet it. This is different from “single source” where other sources are considered, but not solicited for specific , generally technical reasons. I’m curious if Gruber developed a model to meet the outcome. Will we ever know? I love the new transparency.
What pray tell, is a real scandal?
Calling Marcy Wheeler a ninny is way beyond bad taste.
Although I don’t think Krugman owes her an apology, you certainly do.
Outstanding rebuttal, Jane.
Definitely makes me wonder about all the other Executive Branch-purchased (presumably with the knowledge of someone in Congress…), and Executive Branch-authored portions of the “Senate” health care legislation – hidden behind Legislative Branch proxies like Senators Kerry and Baucus who dutifully play the role of ‘presenter’ so as to provide cover – the Democratic Party leadership in Congress is well-aware of, and eagerly facilitating, while being careful to conceal the identities of the legislation’s real authors from the public (not to mention from other Members of Congress).
[The same way I now wonder about the true extent of the publicly-unknown, but officially-sanctioned, backstabbing that Rahm Emanuel must have engaged in on behalf of Speaker Pelosi while in the House, which would comport with his present Party machine-enforcer role as the President's Chief of Staff.]
Could the dangerous backroom-facilitated takeover of Congressional legislative prerogative by the White House be any more glaring? Or are members of the U.S. Senate now reduced to acting merely as empty vessels whose primary duty is to publicly enact the private will of White House appointees and powerful corporate campaign funders, on Presidential command, never mind all that “legislating” and “representing” and “separated powers” stuff?
Far be it for me generally to correct a person on spelling, being one of the poorest typists around, but it is the Glass–Steagall and was repealed by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act of Phil Gramm fame. Feel free to carry on. I was starting to look around for translucent birds.
mgloraine, this is such an EXCELLENT comment. I hope you post it in some form over at Krugman’s blog. When last I looked, they were a bit short on sanity.
Change you can deceive in.
Just more spillage from the DK cesspool, he has been seeping in since the Norquist letter a few weeks back. Believes Krugman lives on Mount Olympus and will inevitably take any criticism of same as a personal attack.
Mentioning FDL and actually attacking it are two different things. There may be one sentence in the multi-paragraph post that may be construed as an ad hominem. But the rest of the post thoroughly analyzes and destroys FDL’s argument.
Portraying Krugman’s response as a personal attack is either ignorant or just flat out lying to your readers or both. FDL can do nothing but come up with weak responses so they resort to misrepresenting Krugman’s post. Despicable.
Calling Marcy Wheeler a ninny is way beyond bad taste.
Rather like the pot calling the bone china black.
Another great comment, and additional urging by me to skip on over to Krugman’s blog and post some form of it.
I’m just worried that the “FDL is a bunch of DFHs” or “FDL is just like Red State” comments are winning over there.
There are such good points being made here; I’d like the readers of Krugman’s blog comments to have the opportunity to consider them — and see what all the fuss is about at this end of the field.
Disregard my post please. Couldn’t modify to correct.
You mean the bullshit conspiracy about the Bushie/Neocons controlling America? It is bullshit to keep the Bushie/Cheney Torture Prisons open. It is bullshit to have wars in Irak and Afghanistan and next-Yemen! It is bullshit to have taxpayers paying international banksters unlimited amounts of money. It is bullshit to pretend Obama Health Care is anything other than just more Corporate medicine. Gruber proves this was the president’s plan all along. But perhaps these things are not conspiracies, but random events.
Do you really see a lot of folks here @ FDL defending Clinton, particularly his handling of economic issues [e.g., NAFTA] and Glass-Steagall?
Something that involves penises in a less-than-peripheral capacity.
Know what’s really funny?
A lot of the folks currently defending Krugman for defending Gruber and the White House’s use of him were (drum roll, please) attacking Krugman during the primaries as an evil Republican pawn of Hillary for backing her health care plan (which had mandates) over Obama’s (which didn’t).
Forgive me, I didn’t know that you had shown that the contract administrator for all the Gruber contracts was Kathleen Sibelius. I didn’t see her name there in that entry field, but if you can show it to me, I’ll look. Otherwise, this statement is pure tripe.
I’m arguing perceptions, and one of the biggest ones is that if they can go after a grant to study Medicare D at NBER, they can go after anybody. And if they can do as sloppy a job as was done trying to prove that Gruber didn’t disclose properly at NEJM, then they can go after anybody without anything real. And if they can pull a correction and a comment from the NYT and Krugman, they can make it a scandal. No one in public health need feel that any of their funding is secure from half-baked innuendo.
And you can prove that? Where is your simulation code? Where is your ability to do what ifs and optimize a health care proposal? Where is your precise calculation of the competing costs for a micro-model of the various health care proposals? Did you submit them for peer-review? Can you provide the journal name and volume and number and page?
We have to keep in mind the quasi-academic nature of the situation. I have been a party to a government grantapplication for an academic project. Such projects are, I’m told, all treated as contracts. They have to be sole-source, because the whole point is to fund original/unique research.
The question is, did this grant support disinterested academic research that was expected to report what it found, even if it found “negative results” that disproved the expected, hypothetical outcome? Or was it a contract for PR/marketing work, where the aim is to support the desired claim? The former is a unique project that has to be single-sourced. But any advertizing agency or copy writer can do the latter. So the latter should NOT be a single-source contract and should not masquerade as research.
Thanks, powwow. I spent the weekend trying to get a grip on how the Gruber information had been fanned out so I had all the links, but it is sprawling. What’s listed here is just the tip of the iceberg.
Your reply is patent nonsense. Getting a contract like this let involves two steps:
- Find a department or program that is vaguely related and whose charter allows such contracts,
- Tell the person(s) in charge you want this particular person’s expertise on an issue.
It’s that simple. These aren’t the sorts of multi-billion dollar contracts that get that kind of scrutiny. As Krugman has noted, among others, these contracts are routinely let out to academics for various reasons. Anyone who can’t figure out how to make that happen wouldn’t make it to GS13 in the first place.
As for the rest of your argument, arguing perceptions is even more tenuous than arguing from consequences, and just as meaningless.
Oh, and excuse the f*ck out of me, but where is Gruber’s simulation code? That’s half the point here – he made these numbers come out in his employer’s favor by using a secret sauce of a “simulation code” which, for all I know, might have been his pulse. You’ll not I used a conditional in the statement you’re responding to – I don’t know if it’s crap or not. I can, however, say that there’s reason to suspect it is without going into the details. And that is the reason this is a problem.
Hamsher and the Hamsherbots did submit their paper to a peer reviewed journal: Teabaggers Quarterly. You’ll have to wait for the next issue though.
in addition to my 159, you keep putting clinton in the same boat as republicans for growing government
clinton lowered government spending, not the reverse, under the previous two republican administrations government spending increased, under clinton government spending as a percentage of our economy was cut
your figures, claims and deductions are way off
but you did a great job transferring bush’s economic failure onto clinton for a while
now that economic failure belongs to obama since he furthered bush’s rediculous “economic strategy” of giving more money without regulation to the banks
I’m pretty sure we at least agree on that point
Troll humor is an oxymoron.
Sure looks like you wouldn’t know a misrepresentation if it sat on your face.
Oh, yeah… having met Marcy Wheeler, I can assure you, she is no “ninny”. You on the other hand…
Looking at the comments, it looks like Krugman was successful in reframing what the scandal is.
Gruber’s failure to disclose his relationship with the Obama administration is NOT the scandal, it is only a symptom of it.
The scandal is that the Obama administration used the allegedly objective opinion pieces of their paid consultant to flog the healtchare reform “compromise.”
That is why FDL is calling on President Obama –and not Prof. Gruber– to come clean.
The states, counties and municipalities are cutting, cutting, cutting, in large part because at least 10% of Americans are out of work, and so tax revenue is down, down, down. Many unemployed Americans are literally in danger of being “tossed out in the street“, but we can’t be sure of that number though, because the unemployment numbers are routinely fudged to make things look better.
At the moment, the quickest way for an American to find themselves in bankruptcy is to get seriously ill, insured or not.
Meanwhile, the Obama administration is pushing an illusory HCR plan, whose real beneficiaries are the health insurance companies because to push a real reform of the healthcare delivery system is deemed politically unrealistic.
Part of the White House push involves continually touting the ostensibly objective economic analysis of an academic who was paid a substantial amount of money, and has not disclosed that fact even when bound by contract to do so.
Out of this whole mess, the thing that is bothering you the most is the possibility that some healthcare professionals, or some academics might find themselves unemployed as a result of a scandal that you insist is being invented by Marcy Wheeler?
Please forgive me if I point out that I believe the stakes are very much higher for our country as a whole, and I say that even though some of my immediate family are deeply embedded in the structure that you say I don’t understand.
It sounds to me as if you believe that you and yours are somehow endangered by the possibility that the WH fails to get this deeply flawed
health insurance industry bail-outHCR bill passed?If this isn’t personal on your part, please explain.
Ultimately it isn’t about defending Gruber or Krugman (well, it might be in romo’s case), it is about insulating the Obama WH from criticism that they are passing off their own employees as independent sources.
Again Jane, you oversell your case and shift the rhetorical emphasis:
Nowhere in Krugman’s article can the second ‘quote’ be found. There is zero reference in the article to ‘a right wing smear’ The actual quote is this:
I agree (with Krugman) that the lack of disclosure is wrong. And that there is nothing wrong with the administration going to a top expert to ask him to run their numbers and scenarios through his models to see what impacts he comes up with.
I also agree with FDL that the basis on which Gruber makes his claim (in other words validating his model and the underlying assumptions) should be challenged with all possible strength. I am not in favor of protecting sacred cows – either people or ideas. I’m simply saying that the implications of nefarious dealings throughout both your post and the comments are not supported by what we know as fact about Gruber.
Gruber should be criticized for not revealing his contracts where he advocates for his conclusions in support of WH policy. But unless I’ve misunderstood, the contracts themselves were not secret. They were a matter of public record for anybody who looked. Both Gruber and the WH should have been more upfront about his contracts, but that fact alone does not invalidate his findings.
Krugman’s defense of Gruber is that he is the top technical expert in his field (not a political operative), and that it should be heard and not drowned out by a ‘scandal’ that doesn’t rise to the necessary threshold (to be properly considered one).
Prof. Krugman’s case so far is more persuasive.
I sure hope krugman and company comes here to see how you’ve laid every one of his arguments to waste
I wonder how it feels to look such the fool as he’s made himself look now that he sees how easily his points were shown flawed
This is just diffuse undiscriminating anger. Show me what neocons and Yemen have to do with Jonathan Gruber’s public health financing computer models, NIH’s financing of public health projects at places like National Bureau of Economic Research, or how it shows any command on your part of how the funding of consultancies, NPOs, or universities goes together to provide the current health care system and make predictions that can be taken to the board at hospitals and clinics as to estimated future costs and resources needed. Take your time.
Are you arguing that Gruber didn’t need to disclose his financial ties to the Obama administration or are you arguing that even if he didn’t, because he does such important, hands on help regarding acquiring funds for real health care that he shouldn’t be called out on not disclosing it?
I’m having a hard time figuring out your point, other than you seem to be worried that this type of thing (calling him out on it) results in future funding problems.
ah the trolls, when they have nothing to offer they call everyone a name like “ninny”
got to go but thanx for playing
Actually, he mentions Marcy by name in the first paragraph.
By Krugman and company do you mean Nobel prize winning economists who hold prestigious positions at prestigious institutions, as oppose to bloggers who have no training in the field. Yeah I’m sure he is very much humbled by her responses. [roll eyes]
Ondelette, “Don’t ever expect to get their votes, or support, no matter what kind of wonderful plan you come up with in the future.” Enough said! it’s really NOT about the argument. It never has been, has it?
POTUS and Congress
“Best and brightest”4 saleThat is much closer to the truth.
Yes I see that now. I saw Politico’s post on it and I thought they posted his response in its entirety. They didn’t.
However, mentioning FDL and actually attacking it are two different things. There may be one sentence in the multi-paragraph post that may be construed as an ad hominem. But the rest of the post thoroughly analyzes and destroys FDL’s argument.
Portraying Krugman’s response as a personal attack is either ignorant or just flat out lying to your readers or both. FDL can do nothing but come up with weak responses so they resort to misrepresenting Krugman’s post. Despicable
Done. Thanks for the suggestion/encouragement. For whatever reason, it never occurred to me to reply to Dr. Krugman.
OK, so I’m really confused. Krugman says this in his article.
So he agrees with what Marcy was asking for…fuller discloser. That’s all. So why is he now also attacking FDL for basically agreeing with her and many here. No one (not Marcy or Jane) said Gruber shouldn’t be allowed to write about his work because of that contract, nope they said he should just disclose those contract ties. And no one here said Krugman shouldn’t cite his work if he so chooses….just as long as the original source (Gruber) has disclosed his contract.
Also, it’s okay for Krugman to defend his friend’s work. However, it was not cool, for Krugman to compare this site and people here to the rightwing. Not cool. Especially since Krugman agrees that disclosure was warranted. Methinks Mr. Krugman is the one who should be apologizing to this site and to Marcy personally for that comparison.
Oy. Must be time for one of them so called Blogger Ethics Panels again huh.
Because bone china defines “white”, for those of us who rarely see or handle it.
Nicely phrased, the black pot calling the white glazed bowl “black”. It also describes the “dry as a bone” character of many of our coffers, unlike those of the corporatists we compete against.
And a significant percentage of Americans are underemployed, with a further much larger percentage hanging on to ill-fitting jobs – producing lower than optimal outcomes – because they come with health insurance.
How cynical would it be to think that the administration chose its “insurers only” legislative outcome – as if painting a sign on a Memphis drinking fountain – in part, because it helps mediocre employers keep their employees while staying mediocre?
By the way, FDL is indeed “just like Red State”–with one key difference:
FDL is mostly right (or at least on side of the angels).
Red State is always wrong (being a wholly owned subsidiary of the Infernal Powers, Inc.).
Frank, Rayne has done a Seminal thread here ,yesterday, entitled “Follow the Money”.
You may want to check it out as there is additional info that may be of interest to you(and others,too.)
And who did you say was going to provide health care to all those people who are out on the streets, after you go after the public health funding? Who? Grover “drown the government in the bathtub” Norquist? Jane Hamsher? Tell me something, is your local public hospital (15% of its patients able to pay) in its 3rd 20% budget cut in a year? Mine is. I’d be damned glad if they can try to ride it out with the superstructure in place that tells them what their projected costs will be, and which of their QI programs are working. They get some of their models from NBER, they get most of their funding from NIH or their subagencies.
I showed some of them the mess over here. They hate you now. They’re some of the strongest voices around for fixing the health care system. They now think all blogs are filled with wrecking ball loons. Collateral damage.
Dumb luck, mostly. I was just trying to think of something that would work better than “a really white kitcheny thing”.
yes, that’s the one
the very person who actually has the nerve to say it’s wrong pointing out conflicts of interest
that guy
the guy that was so humbled by jane and her site he had to write an article devoted to her and company
that’s the guyt
gald you are sure he’s very much humbled too
have a good night romo, see you next time
Recommended reading, “If you meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill him.” At FDL, it’s about the argument.
It is also not OK to suggest that “being an academic” means not disclosing material information bearing on the legitimacy of your research. Quite the contrary: you must disclose your sources, methods, and any conflicts of interest that might affect your work. This is minimal academic integrity. Not doing so is just like plagiarizing a paper or faking experimental data.
So I suppose you too would give the benefit of the doubt to those scientists that came up with studies showing smoking didn’t cause cancer??? After all, they were real scientists, with real letters after their name, right?
Or would you be interested in knowing that the scientists doing those studies received money from the tobacco industry?
And if so, what exactly is the difference here? I’m allowed to question the validity of a study saying smoking doesn’t cause cancer when I discover they were paid by the tobacco industry, and I don’t have to “prove” anything. Likewise, I’m allowed to question the validity of a study showing global warming is all bullshit if the study was done by a group paid by the oil industry.
And in both cases, I, as an independent citizen, should be made aware of those disclosures so that I can question the motives. Likewise, I have every right to wonder if Gruber’s findnings were “genuine” or were “tweaked” because he was paid a handsome sum by this WH.
So which is it, he shouldn’t of had to disclose, or just because he didn’t we can’t then question his motives??? Or is it something else? Maybe when it’s someone on the “left” we need “proof” before questioning motives but when it’s someone on the right we don’t????
Inquring minds want to know.
Do you know of any studies that support Gruber’s claim? Do you have a link?
It would go a long way toward defending his model if we could find some other studies/models with corroborating results.
Heh, I love this. Krugman has been such a hack for so long. It’s hilarious to see him step out to defend his bearded clique. He’s a dancing monkey purveyor of shuffling, wooly nonsense. What a concern troll, lol. The only reason he gets any attention at all is because he’s ostensibly ‘liberal’, so he gets paid to be a ‘thought leader’ for libs (kinda like Gruber and Mann). Nice to have a good look at what he really is. Hi Paul! Anybody who knows anything about economics has known for a long, long time what a hack you really are!
:)
Yeah right. I have read so many personal attacks on Obama’s character here it is not funny.
I was merely pointing out the credibility between the two sources. If I was writing a paper in college or in graduate school, I could cite to Krugman as authority. I couldn’t do that with Marcy Wheeler or whomever at FDL. There is a good reason for that.
Another one who comments without reading the post first…
When they hired Gruber, Obama’s minions in the administration were looking for the answers they knew they would get, the answers that they wanted to get.
Please let me know where you get this:
Where does Marcy say that the contract invalidates his findings? She doesn’t, and neither do I.
You have an amazing gift for refuting arguments nobody is making. I guess that’s a “tactic,” too.
Bailey2739 is this what you were referring to as intelligent analysis of the argument?
By the way this “hack” has a Nobel prize, which is awarded by his peers, and is a tenured professor at Princeton.
Bodhidharma?
Buddhacide.
I know, too easy…
But you are clearly trying to discredit him and by extension his work. That much is obvious.
I would argue though, that that fact alone does give an individual the right to at least question the findings.
I think it’s the knowledge of this that’s behind the reframing of the argument in that manner.
My whole problem is I smell a lot of hypocrisy here. I’d bet if a Nobel winning economist wrote a paper spelling out the virtues of tax cuts for the wealthy as a way of stimulating the economy, and was later learned to have received XXXX dollars from the RNC, that the exact same folks here defending Gruber would’ve been all over that if such an economist had failed to disclose it his RNC connection.
I could mostly agree with this take.
I suspect that Gruber sees himself as an independent academic receiving research grants to study the implications of public policy options by running them through his models. He would likely be incensed by the common accusations in this thread that his opinion has been ‘bought’ by the research contracts he receives. Krugman certainly sees him that way:
The problem I have about this debate is that it focuses on Gruber’s character / credibility, when it should focus on the integrity and validity of his HCR micro-modeling.
And I should add that more transparency is always better. The constant fight for it is what I do appreciate about FDL’s contribution. (especially Marcy).
Krugman is doing that all by himself. Sad, really.
you may not be aware, but there was a bunch here too (hcan posts) which is why i read the gruber reports — i’d already been reading the cbo reports and it didn’t add up (also living in MA, my personal experience contradicted the ahip report gruber referenced).
Why Yemen? Why Irak? These cost of these wars prevent universal health care, especially for Schizophrenics under bridges. If the Bushie Oil wars were insufficient to stop universal health care, the neo-cons came up with the Goldman Sachs Bailout Theft.
I admit it. I do not know why and how NIH fund should fund economic studies. Certainly Krugman and you yourself have no “command” of why Gruber got funded. Once again, what has this brilliant and expensive “simulation” discovered? None of you Gruber apologists can tell us.
No, I think NIH should fund SCIENCE, Economics is not science. But Krugman and a lot of other economists probably should take a course in Biochemistry.
Academic back-stabbing is a fine art, long practiced in the Ivy League, Oxbridge and the world’s other esteemed places of higher learning and higher egos. Mr. Krugman would not have long survived at Princeton if he hadn’t acquired at least a journeyman’s handiness in it.
Mr. Krugman agrees with Marcy’s point about Gruber’s failure to disclose, but considers her expression of it out of proportion to the fault she describes. He does that by avoiding placing the “indiscretion” in its proper context. He also does it in the way a seasoned academic might chide a junior one – either because their personality grated on him or because her criticism struck too close to home.
Not content to leave it there, which might make one wonder why he bothered specifically to refute Marcy at all, Mr. Krugman universalizes his criticism. He takes it beyond the particular series of Gruber articles to attack Marcy and FDL generally, by deriding her and FDL as coming perilously close to becoming like the logic- and fact-free, emotion-laden rightwing blogs we decry.
That’s artistic. In a single, throwaway comment he mischaracterizes and infantilizes her criticism, and slams a colleague in a chummy, genteel way that allows the players to come back for more another day, if they dare. It’s like scoring a point in fencing or judo; it’s done so fast only the judge sees them. Colin Dexter, with Inspector Morse, created an entire fictional world around such sport. Murder was merely the pretext for exploring it.
This health insurance reform debate isn’t an academic exercise involving only individual careers or college presidencies. It is about spending $850 billion over ten years and about the pocketbooks and health of most Americans. We need to demand more of its public advocates and the pundits who fail to critique them.
Then why is he whining at Bernanke about unemployment when the fed funds rate is at 0%? Does he want Bernanke to lower it?
:)
“I sure hope krugman and company comes here to see how you’ve laid every one of his arguments to waste
I wonder how it feels to look such the fool as he’s made himself look now that he sees how easily his points were shown flawed”
The following commentary is not directed at any particular person or circumstance, it may apply to one or more presently here.
Before entering into a debate it is wise to collect the facts and analyze the history. Failing to do so may lead to embarrassment. Embarrassment caused by advocating a position not backed by facts and chosen in error.
Sometimes the facts and history are not in agreement with the position the debater must take. In that case there may be little option but to twist and spin in order to try to make a case. Strawmen may also be useful, along with other additional diversionary tactics.
When one sees tactics of minimization and diversion, coupled with perhaps selective omission(s!);one can sometimes draw a conclusion about the argument being made, rather than the skills of the debater.
Yeah, and President Obama is busy bombing at least four or five countries and has a Nobel Peace Prize.
Nuff said about the Nobel.
If he is discredited it only because of his decision to not disclose his source of financing. Marcy and Jane did not make him not disclose.
In fact, the reason for disclosure is to ward off this kind of criticism. He weighed his options and chose to not disclose — well before FDL even knew of his existence.
LOL. He didn’t receive money from the DNC. He received money from an arm of the HHS that gives out grants of these sorts on a regular basis, despite the person’s political leanings. What you said is not in the same ball park; it is not even in the same sport.
Well he is not going to be discredited because nobody of any import will take what FDL has to say seriously.
The peace prize is awarded by the Swedes. Every other prize is awarded by their peers. You seem to have a difficult time drawing parallels I see.
First, you point out yourself that Marcy has done great work in this regard.
Second, the transparency issue is significant and gets very much to the core of everything Marcy has been saying. Jon Walker also wrote that he couldn’t understand Gruber’s nonsensical arguments. Then, when this came to light, it brought it all home.
That’s the problem with not disclosing conflicts of interest – eventually, others will connect the dots.
Are we supposed to care about how incensed Gruber is? Seriously?
You do realize the Fed has other tools at their disposal to increase money supply besides the interest rate… right?
Academic flame wars are certainly NOT a Fine Art. As people with the internets, we’re all familiar with the tactics. They are common and obvious and you don’t even need a beard.
There’s a reason they call it the National Institute of Health. It funds studies on health, public health being part of them. Part of public health is the economics of funding public health. Public health is not biochemistry. It’s funding models, epidemiology, etc. Feel free to tell us how studying biochemistry makes you an expert on that.
Whoops, sorry, got my concern trolls mixed up. My bad.
With your ability to constantly shift the argument, you must’ve been nearly undefeated on your High School or College debate team.
Congratulations.
And that is fine. This isn’t a popularity contest. This is simply trying to be sure that propaganda is not used to subvert healthcare reform.
Of course. Perhaps you can descibe to me how those tools would lower unemployment? Krugman can’t.
:)
So Gruber of MIT and Krugman a Nobel Prize winner who teaches at Princeton are propagandists? HA!
Do you think the administration is coordinating with Gruber or even Krugman about what message they want sent out? LOL.
Is that why you are here?
Just lately it seems?
Did you feel that, Krugman? Earlofhuntingdon just pivoted off your artful, throwaway comment and brutally slammed you back down to earth.
I’m not sure if you actually ARE an Earl,but you certainly have a royal command of the King’s English.
So very,very well said!
Well one method would be to buy up T-notes from banks, which would help capitalize those institutions and give them the ability to make loans to individuals and businesses.
I was kind of put off by the fact that FDL sent me an email that looked like it was trying to manufacture a “scandal.” It would have been different if FDL hadn’t tried to do that, but had instead just honestly questioned Gruber’s objectivity.
No, I worry that the Emmanual brothers are propagandists.
Gruber is an economist with a proprietary model which has not been independently verified.
To be fair, romo always comes around trolling when the discussion turns to Krugman, whom romo defends like a lover (i.e., with little-to-no objectivity).
krugman is an democratic party establishment lapdog … one who cheered on nafta and almost any free trade agreement. He’s been MAJORLY overrrated by the liberal blogosphere …. digby is utterly enthralled, but then again they both share an unhealthy loyalty to anything to do with clinton.
At first he was against obama becoz he was pro-clinton in the primaries … and attacked him unfairly IMO … but now that he got his pat on the head and got invited to some fo their meetings, he is willing to attack anybody that goes against obama. And he’s more than willing to cover for his fellow academics in his corrupt field of study.
Don’t be fooled by krugman’s establishment award in one of the most corrupt fields of study in this country, krugman is not intellectually homnet, he’s a selfish hack.
Z
The guy should have disclosed and Krugman admits it.
Wheeler is right.
Krugman should be clear about that.
Krugman was clear that he thinks that Hamsher is trying to take the non-disclosure and inflate it.
I think that Krugman should explain and apologize immediately after Hamsher offers her apology to Mrs. Lieberman for that bullcrap embarrassment of a petition.
I’d also suggest that Obama’s team shopped around for experts who supported ‘free market’ solutions to health care (i.e.glib fixes that left all the essentials of our dysfunctional health care system in place; I’m sure that was a precondition for Obama, who’s guiding principle seems to be ‘don’t rock the boat’). Gruber was a leading force behind Romneycare in MA. If the plan was acceptable to a fiscally conservative Republican in a liberal Democratic state, Obama deemed it would wash with the American public. That’s decidedly his style.
He should have disclosed it, but it is a very minor issue. Hence false controversy.
And Krguman clearly states he should have disclosed it. So what should Krugman have apologized for?
What does your buddy Grover think?
This statement:
“because nobody of any import will take what FDL has to say seriously.”
Coupled with the time he spent here recently made me wonder…which is it?
Perhaps the logical trap was set and stepped in?
O sister! There they go again, attacking you, Sister Jane, with the myth that you aren’t being true to your true identity (as subtly defined by Lord Paul of Economics, that is). His question is entirely beside the point.
I’ve long suspected Lord Paul as an EHM. But that’s also my favorite heuristic.
Is it my selective reading and memory, my desire to out our present-hour economic hit men, or does Krugman reliably take on a decidedly Establishment tone when push comes to shove? Strip our body politic bare for autopsy: Is he a genuine progressive, is he someone who shares our progressive vision of our shared future, or a stalking horse for TPTB?
Anyone else? Toss an economically-challenged poet a bone here. Is Krugman an EHM, or maybe just a lord of propaganda for them, or am I painting with too broad a brush?
Banks are not lending, businesses and individuals are trying to get rid of debt, not take on more. Try again? Maybe you’ll win a Nobel Prize!
:)
You got it. It’s called being a ‘thought leader’, very lucrative, and bearded.
Three quarters of a million dollars is not a minor issue.
for minimizing the non-disclosure
for slighting the Wheeler, by far the best blogger on FDL, and,
most importantly for Hamsher,
not holding Hamsher’s position on the healthcare legislation
Ah, the sad scent of desperation…
I’d forgotten about Gruber’s support of Romneycare. It would certainly make it easy to find him on the “health care economists” shelf.
ouch. you think it trolling here disproves its point? seems so.
I didn’t say that. Galbraith did.
As for being too much of an academic to disclose where the money comes from….
Where I work, Conflict of Interest forms are usually de riguer for most respected academic journals, especially those with a decent impact factor.
The forms ask about one’s own income from sponsoring companies or agencies, as well as spouses’ and children’s income, and sometimes even about stock holdings. It is not unusual for there to be some kind of time factor, as well, say, three years or so. In this case, the money/timeline is pretty much on top of the work being published.
And then in another post, Marcy questioned whether Gruber’s work was even peer-reviewed. What? You get to a certain level of academia, and all of a sudden you’re exempt from the review process. I don’t think so.
Some journals do published requested papers, but they are not published in the same category ore section of the journal as thosee papers that are written from original research.
And then there are the forms required by many journals, that ask what role and percentage of effort was performed by each of the contributing authors.
It’s no picnic, trying to get published in the academic world.
Nice catch…you’re absolutely right. Krugman should have said that because his buddy was an academic he should have definitely known the significance and fully understood the necessity of proper sourcing, disclosure, conflict of interest, etc. It is an important part of the policy of academic transparency and the peer review process. And because they’re academics they both should understand better than most anyone that you should take nothing for granted when it comes to presenting your work as fully objective.
you mean like steffie woolhandler and david himmelstein?
The Regressivity of Taxing Employer-Paid Health Insurance in response to gruber’s A Win–Win Approach to Financing Health Care Reform
This kind of thing (paying researchers to find what you want them to find) is all part of regulatory capture. Research, like regulation, is gamed by those with sufficient resources and financial and political interests to protect.
That was quick! I don’t know of a good review/analysis of Lord Paul, darling of the Left, got links? I haven’t even read the thread yet, so don’t bother if I’m being redundant.
Cripes, links. I don’t know of any, but you lay it out right. The way he works is similar to Ezra Klein, he uses the fact that many people don’t understand how money works, and his reputation as liberal beard to obfuscate what the issues are and what is actually going on, rather than provide analysis. He is a propagandist. This is a good link, it gets kind of tough going, just skim those parts if you want, you’ll get the idea.
http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/2009/01/31/therovingcavaliersofcredit/
I think Gruber represents Obama’s ‘Catapulting the Propaganda’ moment.
and of course Krugman was addressing himself mostly to someone other than Wheeler, suggesting that rabidity in defense of virtue is pyrrhic, at best.
… and best is rarely, in this fashion, reached.
Were you following things here during the primaries?
The issued should have been minimized. Because it is an extremely minor issue. And Hamsher and Wheeler should have been given a slap on the wrist, because they are acting silly.
1- Krugman has been trying to make upto the white-house for a couple taking a lot off the ball compared to
His previous criticisms of the white house. This is another way a famous man can use his fame to diddle back
Up
To power.
2-krugman’s criticism of wheeler does not include what a public intellectual like him owes a public intellectual like wheeler – a set of comments on the central issue she
Pursued on each
Of her columns on gruber and for
Months before that
That the admin/senate bill may hide potential damage to individual citizens in it’s unexamined details – especially details about the excise tax.
If krugman would stop tarring wheeler and start using his economic expertise to respond to her arguments he would do the nation a great favor.
3. About money and influence, this
Has got to be one of krugman’s more obtuse
Moments -avert the eyes- .
Gifts pay supporters. Corporations pay supporters (they ‘re called lobbyists, Paul).
Gruber is a sort of academic lobbyist/expert.
His commentary in support of parts of the admin/senate bill has been extensive and wide reaching,e.g., his nytimes editorial for which the times scolded gruber.
4. So krugman – are you going to blather on about wheeler in an effort to use your famous persona to discredit wheeler for saying the obvious about gruber’s failure to disclose
Or are you going to meet her half way on the critiques of the bill wheeler has lodged over time.
Or are you going to meet
Her
Half way
An’
Wish I’d said that. Critical observation.
Yes it is since it wasn’t used to bribe him into distorting his findings, as you guys seem to be implying.
Great work, Jane. It is SO tiresome keeping up with all the abject deceits of the “leadership class” – which now, sadly, includes Mr. Krugman.
Back in 1998, Paul started warning his readers and fans that the Republican “Tax Cuts” would eventually demolish whatever surpluses and economic growth had been built up under 6 years of Clintonomics.
Can’t recall exactly where he (Krugman) stood on the twin Phil Gramm/Robert Rubin “Deregulation” atrocities (#1. the Gramm-Leach-Bliley & #2. the Commodity Futures ‘Modernization’ Acts), but he definitely preached against what would become the Bush-II tax-cuts-for-wealthy.
Needless to say, Krugman’s employer – the Arthur Sulzberber New York Times – SUPPORTED EVERY Right-Wing Republican (and Rubin/Summers/Citi/GS “Democrat”) DEREGULATION ATROCITY.
Krugman would say “tax cuts for rich will be a disaster” in the back pages, and the front pages of that same edition of the Sulzberger Times would be advocating FOR those DEFICITS CREATING, ECONOMY-GUTTING tax cuts.
An ENTIRE DECADE LATER, Krugman (like the Clinton’s before him) is now a Stockholm syndrome victim, he’s RESIGNED to Right-Wing economics, and now he’s starting to DEFEND the “VODOO” practitioners or Right-Wing-onomics.
Banks are lending more than the were, albeit still not enough, and many businesses need loans to make pay roll. Businesses still need loans. Your assertions are not rooted in reality.
the u.s. government turned universities and their faculties into prostitutes for the state decades ago. mit has always been one of the most well paid in that stable of “hookers”.
and professional academics are a guild. that will form up to protect other members of that guild. that is how it works.
my support for that observation was a conference that cspan aired some weeks ago. it featured a historian that i have always thought to be an anti-american imperialist. bruce cumings. a scholar of real standing concerning the first war of the post ww2 era, the u.s. invasion of the u.s partitioned korea.
but, in this conference, in which the events of 11/09/01 were routinely cited, in which the fraudulent record of that commission was used repeatedly to excuse increasing levels of totalitarianism in the usa, i was dumbstruck to hear cumings genuflect at the name of phil zelikow. as did all the other academic participants.
for me, the inescapable conclusion is that the professorial guild will lie, cheat, steal to maintain it role as administrators, dramaturges of the mandarinate.
Orionatl @283
My comment was typed on an itouch which I have great difficulty getting to go back over text written
Previously and now off screen.
Any tips would be appreciated.
Links Please.
All I’m saying is:
It is one or the other.
It’s not for me to say which,
only to point out the obvious choice.
Yes, they are. You’re telling me that businesses needing loans to make payroll are looking to hire? Banks that are insolvent because they will never be paid back for the option ARMs, CRE, and liar loans they gave out are looking to lend as more and more people become unemployed? No Nobel for you. You’re toast buddy, lol.
:)
or another way of putting it is:
Links Please.
My GOD! Academics are getting TAXPAYER DOLLARS!!? Why can’t all academics work for reputable private research organizations like AEI and other Grover Norquist approved organizations!?
Yes, you’re right. Romos a troll, I shoulda just scrolled.
The issue is that he didn’t disclose it, actually he lied about it to the Washington Post. A paid shill, in my book.
Try explaining a single thing that’s silly about Wheeler, please.
She’s a person, romo, distinct from Hamsher, and you would do well not to forget that and to confuse the two people.
An academic publishes a paper on his/her research results. In the absence of specific disclosure, the assumption is that the research was government funded. That’s the norm in US universities.
I just learned that the CBO numbers are also government funded – the scandal is worse than I had imagined. Also all those Bureau of Labor Statistics numbers people use to discuss the economy – ARE PAID FOR BY TAXPAYER DOLLARS!!!!!! Triple ALARM.
How is this any different than the paid Pentagon pundits who went all over the TV supporting the Bush admin… when we didn’t know they were paid to do it?
Or how is this any different from drug/pharmaceutical companies paying for studies that support their drugs and then touting the studies (and suppressing those that end up not supporting their drugs)?
Analysis that is paid for by the entity with a vested interested in the results of the analysis… is not independent in any way, shape or form.
It doesn’t matter that his opinions would have been the same regardless… he had/has an obligation to honestly state his conflicts of interest in presenting data that supports the people who paid for his data.
Oh my…
Hasbara comes to mind after reading through these comments…
She is discussing the nature of funding economic research when she has no experience or clue about it. Hence silly. Krugman told her what’s what, and it would behoove the rest of FDL not to cry about being set straight by someone who knows what he is talking about.
Your attempts at being a smart ass are having quite the opposite affect I’m afraid, in that they’re making you look more like a dumb ass.
Perhaps a different strategy is in order. Say, arguing the points, maybe?
Armstrong Williams. Had been trying to think of his name.
Let’s see if Jonathan Gruber slinks off like Armstrong Williams. Paid shill. So Paul Krugman has thrown his reputation in with him. So much for trusting anything either one of them have to say.
Don’t trust anybody who is a regular on the Sunday Morning political programs at this point.
On the bright side, our guy rahm’s face does not show his usual cockiness.
Thanks, much obliged. Have you seen TRNN’s recent segment titled, Exec compensation: “Heads I win tails you lose“? It’s the subject of my recent diary, Deconstructing Myths of America: Paul Jay and James Crotty examine the myth-making that creates “false values” and “structural blackmail.
In the first segment of TRNN’s video interview, Jay and Crotty examine not just the data points of executive compensation, which would reduce our selves and our livelihoods (aka our political economy), to just slot machines in a rigged casino, but far more importantly, the mythology that makes us believe that the prophets of profit are our proper modern gods.
The fact that Joseph Campbell lectured for decades, beginning in 1956, for the State Department’s Foreign Service Institute, should send a chill up the spine of anyone familiar with The Power of Myth. Someone, I’m convinced, knowingly or not, is using it to power weapons-grade propaganda.
Your mention of EZ’s use of popular ignorance of matters financial, esp. macroeconomics, speaks volumes.
From my most recent diary:
“An academic publishes a paper on his/her research results. In the absence of specific disclosure, the assumption is that the research was government funded. That’s the norm in US universities.”
Blah, blah. He lied about it.
“UPDATE: Washington Post op-ed editor Autumn Brewington emails that the Post, as a practice, asks writers to disclose any “conflicts of interest that might be relevant to this op-ed, including but not limited to financial or family relationships with any of the subjects of the article” and that Gruber, when asked whether he “received any funding, for research or otherwise, from organizations or persons identified in the column,” answered “no.”"
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0110/Grubers_disclosure.html?showall
I want to be clear: I am an admirer of Mr. Krugman’s essays. I don’t always agree with him. But I always have to at least consider his positions. This case is no different. It just happens that Mr. Krugman makes an uncharacteristically weak argument, and Ms. Wheeler makes a characteristically strong one.
Mr. Krugman’s defense of Mr. Gruber comes across as off-hand, ill-considered, and rooted more in who he knows than in what he knows about academic life. He gives too much weight to the forms of professional courtesy and too little to the substance of professional ethics. He also gives too much weight to a colleague’s reputation and too little weight to Ms. Wheeler’s careful research and demonstrated, de facto erudition (if she isn’t a formal academic, she certainly could be). He fails to confront the facts of the case head on and instead quibbles about the delivery. As a result, his arguments seem strained and verge on ad hominem attacks, which are never convincing.
But I don’t think that he is, as a result, a bad person or a less than excellent economist. He’s human. He has friends and colleagues. He is touchy on some points and not one others. He has an ego, like all accomplished people. So he is sometimes blinded by emotion and prejudice and resentful of insults real or perceived, like all of us.
What Mr. Krugman said and/or implied about Ms. Wheeler and FDL is a tempest in a teapot. What Mr. Gruber did is not. It should remain the focus of our interest.
And in one sense, Mr. Krugman has done FDL and Ms. Wheeler a service by spelling the names right (the one, true requirement of good publicity).
And your attempts at being a complete asshole are well noticed.
Instead of using your demeaning tactics, why not address the issues?
If a scientist is paid to do research on a subject that the folks paying him have an interest in, should he/she disclose or shoud he not?
And are you perfectly OK with studies proving global warming isn’t real and have no interest as to whether or not Big oil contracted to pay for those studies or not/
Or are you going to act childish again, dodge the questions, and get in a a dig or two at the same time?
You remind me of the republicans who used to get really upset that Barbara Streisand would have anything to say about politics.
While they had ronnie raegan and Ahhnold as their first line of defense. Ronnie went on to be with the Lord and Ahhnold is begging for federal money.
I would trust Marcy and Jane’s reporting over just about anybody elses.
Because nobody sensible would consider an HHS grant to be a conflict of interest. Similarly, Himmelstien, who is a critic of Gruber is funded by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and the National Institutes of Health and does not disclose that in his public writings. American Academics rely on grant funding. Everyone should know that. It’s one thing to get e.g. advocacy funding from the government (and nobody who knows anything has suggested he was paid to advocate) or from an interested private party. But someone has to pay for research efforts and the graduate students who have to crank the numbers.
You’re being silly. Wheeler’s discussing legality and ethical behavior.
So fundamentally, the problem here is that unlike the Bush administration, the Obama administration likes to get the science right. So instead of making up bullshit numbers, they arranged for grant funding for a health economist who was in their general camp, but well respected, and relied on him to run the numbers. This is a scandal like Whitewater was a scandal.
That rebuttal deserves a soundtrack, OFG. (The sound of a rug being pulled out from under a thug.) THUD!
” PAUL JAY: In the next segment of our interview [“False values” and “structural blackmail”, let’s talk about the concept of “false value,” and how these executives created this essential mythology of profits to increase their bonuses and how that helped lead to the collapse.”
I will check it out, thank you. We have a ponzi economy, no net value is being created, so everybody needs to find the next sucker to keep it rolling, to skim their percentage. Looks like people who want health insurance are the next suckers. It’s a bad old fucking world, Amen.
Because nobody sensible would consider an HHS grant to be a conflict of interest.
The grant isn’t a conflict of interest, not disclosing it is a conflict of interest. What is so difficult about this?
You left off the rest of the quote from the Washington Post
“She also defended the column. “The subject of the op-ed was not related to Gruber’s work for the administration, and we accepted the column based on the body of his work and knowledge in this field,” Brewington said in an email. “Generally we think more disclosure is better than less. But in this case he was writing about a Senate proposal and an idea that he has been promoting for years, so in the end we might well have decided his work for the administration was not relevant.”
So this is the major scandal! Gimme a break.
Well, the Post doesn’t think that he needed to disclose it because “But in this case he was writing about a Senate proposal and an idea that he has been promoting for years, so in the end we might well have decided his work for the administration was not relevant.”
His NEJM article does disclose.
And I’m sure you’d be saying the exact same thing if it was a paper released during the 2001 debates on tax cuts for the wealthy, right?
If an economist had written several papers in several journals where his model showed that these tax cuts would result in a brand new economy where everyone became wealthier and poverty was ended, you wouldn’t consider it an oversight on that economists part if he forgot to mention that he was under a government contract to the Presidents’ Economic Advisory Panel.
Right?
I mean if that became a scandal for Bush you’d be rallying to that economists’ defense, correct?
What she thinks does not change the fact that he lied. Damn, can you do me the courtesy of thinking when you try to debate me? I’m embarassed for you, that your opinion is so cheaply formed. Have some self respect.
Wow, earl, just wow.
I hope you too have hopped on over to Krugman Crib and entered a comment. Your argument is so cogent and so thorough; the legions over there need to opportunity to see it.
If the guy had been widely reported to be the adviser to the President, I’d consider it a non-scandal too.
And I don’t even like Grubers work.
The idea here on FDL is that everything is a scandal. In fact, it could just be that Gruber, who has been pushing the same ideas for a decade has an opinion you dislike. Not all disagreement has to be rooted in corruption.
The Post editor does not think he lied. That’s your, ridiculous, characterization.
How do you KNOW “it wasn’t used to bribe him into distorting his findings”? How do you know he wasn’t selected because it was known he’d “help” substantiate an argument he agreed with? What part of independent is so hard for you to grasp?
I have to repeat, please try to think clearly instead of simply making excuses to defend this little shill. This is our country, millions of people’s lives. Do better, we need you.
Not so. You disclose any outside sponsorship, particularly if it might present the appearance of conflict of interest.
If you are a professor employed by Robspierre’s Pretty Good University and do research that is funded by your salary, you don’t have to disclose funding per se because you are publishing as a member of the faculty of RPGU and research is part of your normally expected duties. But chances are that you want to publisize your faculty credentials anyway. Rightly or wrongly, a endowed chair at Cornell or Harvard will buy you more credibility than an adjunct instructorship at RPGU (it’s “pretty good”, but not famous).
If you are publishing research under a fellowship from a foundation, a grant from Mobil Oil, or a grant from NSF or NIH, you acknowledge the sponsor as a matter of course. They often insist on it.
If, as in this instance, an outside sponsorship might look like a conflict of interest, prominently disclosing the relationship is essential.
This is as much common sense as it is professional ethics. I fault Krugman most for suggesting otherwise. Next thing you know, acknowledging sources will supposedly be unnecessary because the use of sources is assumed.
Ah, so THAT’s what this is about.
And yes, I’ve been here since long before the primaries. But like most sane folks, i don’t carry grudges or have elephantine memories.
Rootless, Ask anyone who attends FED Analyst meetings and listen to the jokes told of our Government Economic measurements. It’s always a contest, but “CPI” always wins out.
same politico link from commeter transparait @305
Apparently those publications that the lowly masses read just aren’t important enough for Gruber to worry about over disclosure issues. So not only is he a liar, but he certainly knows the importance of full disclosure. No excuse..none for the lack of transparency here.
And for those still arguing none was needed based on assuming certain things, um even Paul Krugman agreed with Marcy/fdl and said yes, disclosure was needed. sheesh.
So
http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/07/insured-but-bankrupted-anyway/?scp=1&sq=himmelstein&st=cse
Himmelstien is a criminal for failing, in that interview, to disclose the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and NIH as funders for his research? Is that your opinion?
Color me unconvinced, and guessing you’d be right there with the rest of us calling him out on his failur to disclose.
But in this case we aren’t talking about the results. Have you seen one post on here opining either way as to the results of his model?
We’re talking about his failure to disclose his contractual relations with an office very much invovled in producing and “selling” Obama’s health care plan, the Office of Health Reform.
I’m sorry, but if you don’t see the conflict of interest by not disclosing his contractual relations with that office while purporting to publish studies in support of that office’s efforts, i.e. the President’s Health Care bill, it’s because you don’t want to see one.
And shame on you if that’s just because he’s on “our” side. I’m sure all the Bush apologists said that all the time too.
All of you folks attacking Marcy and FDL seem to actually be, in a backhanded way, making their point. The fact that he didn’t disclose a possible conflict of interest was the issue. You guys seem to already be taking that to the next level to defend it as in arguing the merits of the study itself rather than the failure to disclose a possible conflict of interest. You seem to be advancing straight to the point of why we have conflict of interest rules regarding disclosure in the first place.
shill??
Did he deny he was funded by them? Done with you troll.
Gruber?? Krugman?? What??
who were you calling a little shill?
If you want to see the context for Gruber’s supposed “lie” to the Wapo, consider
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/27/AR2009072701905.html
where Martin Feldstien writes against the health reform and bills himself as ” a professor of economics at Harvard University and president emeritus of the nonprofit National Bureau of Economic Research,” without mentioning his work as a board member of AIG Financial Products or Eli Lilly.
Gruber! Going to bed, now.
He did not deny he was funded by them, he denied a conflict of interest.
good idea. you got goaded, fairly understandably, into excess.
I guess you’re a big fan of Obama’s health care plan then. What do you think of the individual mandate?
And your point is.. what? That two wrongs make a right? Nah, must be something else. What?
Or is it that if FDL doesn’t catch ALL of them failing important disclosures that FDL shouldn’t call out ANY of them? Nah, can’t believe you’d be making that point either.
What am I missing? (besides half a brain. If you want to go there, it’s cool. I concede the point. I’ve NEVER been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer.)
I think the health plan sucks, but is probably the best that can be produced by our bought and paid for Senate – I agree with Senator Sanders assessment. And the mandate appears to be toothless, so I don’t care about it.
And for the record, I think Gruber’s analysis looks weak. But I don’t care. The plan will extend health care to tens of millions of people who would otherwise have none, destroy the ERISA scam, and end pre-existing condition and baseless recission, as well as restore the funding for physicians for underserved areas (thanks Senator Sanders!). And it will be a massive Republican defeat. So I support it.
No. My point is that is you claim that Gruber’s action is a violation of standards, and you haven’t bothered to realize that the WAPO has no disclosure standards, you are being manipulated and enjoying it.
Who said anything about WaPo???
But while we’re on the subject of newspapers, does the New York Times count as one? And do their disclosure standards count?
Well, one thing I’m fairly certain of – Rahm and Obama thought they’d easily pick up a bunch of seats in Nov, just cause they’re so special, and now they’re watching all that turn to shit before their very eyes. Good job, special guys! And good night to all.
The “scandal” is about an op-ed published in the Washington Post.
Really??
Well set me on fire and call me hot. I had no idea all of this fuss was over a single op-ed in that rag I gave up years ago.
Humpff, silly ‘ole me.
You all have a nice day now, and play nice.
oh, Krugman holds a Nobel, you say. I guess the rest of us should just shut the fuck up. Sorry, I guess Glass-Stegal should have been repealed after all.
Some of you folks sound as bad as right-wingnuts. Krugman didn’t go far enough; this is a silly argument. There is an excellent reason to require a partisan advocate to declare his support and we don’t do it enough. Unfortunately, we hardly do it at all. On the other hand, there is nothing about being funded as an independent analyst that impugns ones standing as an independent analyst. Quite the contrary. Besides, anyone who followed the debate this spring desperately wanted to hear Dr. Gruber’s impression of the bill.
When Dr. Gruber said he couldn’t think of anything that wasn’t in the bill, he showed that he is unbiased by nature. He made no assessment of the value of the ideas, but simply reported that everything we heard him discuss this spring had made it into the bill. So even if Obama committed a faux pax by not reminding us that he had consulted an expert before, (as if they are only good once and are then tainted) the expert himself showed exactly why he is prized as an independent analyst.
On your planet, what color is the sky?
Because the point here is that Gruber is not an independent analyst in this.
Best of the evening to you.
Can’t believe anyone actually has the audacity to give any credibility to Nobel prizes these days.
Ah, I get the ‘you people’ square filled on my bingo card.
Times they do change:
Or perhaps:
Maybe you’ve found one?
yeah, MS economists have really nailed it over the last decade.
There’s a big difference between making disclosures (or not) in an interview and omitting them from a published paper. That, at least, should be obvious.
The interview is part of a general public record. (And didn’t someone in this thread note that the WaPost actually asked for financial disclosures, while Gruber replied that there were none?)
The published paper is part of record/history of ongoing research, and so should its ethical underpinnings be a part of that same record or history.
Whether you intend to or not, you are coming across like an Obmamabot.
Grubers paper in NEJM did make the disclosure. His op-ed in the Washington Post did not.
I don’t know what point you are making, except possibly that you think those quotes mark me as someone who will change opinion as circumstances change. I still don’t like the mandate, but as I said, Senator Sanders seems to have it right.
In any case, I’ve made my argument, feel free to respond as you want.
Which ‘she’ is the troll referring to?
If it means EW, it’s so wrong that I’m ROFLMAO.
The point is not so much the funding as the lack of disclosure that his work, about which he was writing as if he were independent of all ties, was funded by the very people he was supporting.
If someone appraised a house for a realtor, and was also showing you that house and telling you what a great buy it was, without saying that they were the appraiser, would you want to buy that house?
That’s approximately what Gruber did: he’s telling us how great the Senate bill is, without having disclosed that he was paid for the model they’re using to claim how good it is.
The argument appears to be “Bernie Sanders likes it now, so therefore it’s okay.”
If the mandate was wrong then it’s wrong now, and shouldn’t be made acceptable just because we “like” someone who is advancing it. But that does seem to be the only consistent principle at play, unless I’m missing something. If I am, I’m more than willing to listen.
I am still waiting to be informed who the “wrong enemies” are. Please tell us Ondelette, so we will not be scared.
Ouch. Rootless indeed.
The Post thought that selling their reporters’ services to advertisers and politicians in ‘salons’ was okay.
The Post thought that running political PR releases was ‘news’.
The Post thought that keeping politicians happy was more important than accuracy in reporting, even to the point of not running corrections.
The Post is not a newspaper; it’s an oversized throwaway on the doorstep.
Based on what? He was contracted to write a statistical model and ended up having to input the data himself. What is biased about that? That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Anger without facts is the enemy we battle.
“Some of you folks sound as bad as right-wingnuts”
I hope I don’t.
“On the other hand, there is nothing about being funded as an independent analyst that impugns ones standing as an independent analyst. Quite the contrary.”
Do tell. As discussed previously, that appears not to be the nature of the engagement here.
Sole source, non peer reviewed,extensive public opining on the topic and so forth.
“Besides, anyone who followed the debate this spring desperately wanted to hear Dr. Gruber’s impression of the bill.”
I was not desperately waiting for Dr. Gruber at any point this spring. If you were then, that must be an issue for you to come to grips with.
“When Dr. Gruber said he couldn’t think of anything that wasn’t in the bill, he showed that he is unbiased by nature.”
My conclusion differed from this; others did too. Hearing an academic say that they can’t think of anything additional, when the topic is the HCR bill,… Not buying.
“He made no assessment of the value of the ideas,”
What is he being paid to do under the contracts? He was paid,which implies he did what contract called for to get the payment.
” So even if Obama committed a faux pax by not reminding us that he had consulted an expert before, (as if they are only good once and are then tainted)”
Faux Pax(sic),yet to be determined; tainted after one use, possible.
“the expert himself showed exactly why he is prized as an independent analyst.”
That seems to be a possibility, also a topic of continuing discussion.
Joining this thread hopelessly late, but I think Marcy and Jane have been pretty clear in pointing out that there is a real issue in not disclosing such a significant source of funding. Gruber is identified in many of the op/ed and other recent “papers” as a professor at MIT. Given the level of grant funding, it would be just as accurate to identify him as an HHS grantee.
As a former fed, I’ll say that I don’t think that the sole source contract is a big deal, it happens a lot and is a whole hell of a lot easier to deal with for specific tasks. If you compete it, it usually ends up with SAIC, Dyncorp…. It’s also a lot easier to get done when the recipient is a not for profit, which likely explains the structure that Gruber had set up to be the grant recipient, though MIT probably would have worked as well…tougher to argue, though, that MIT had the unique capability, the narrower the better in making the justification for a sole source.
That said, I think Krugman is very much off the mark when he says that this is a research grant. Nope, this is an analysis support grant. And part of the key is that the grantee will be available to confer with the grant-maker and will be responding to direction from the grant-maker as to what the researcher should investigate.
Since December 1, 2008, Gruber’s Wikipedia entry has included:
It has long been public knowledge that he has been working for Team Obama since some time during the primaries and should come as a shock to no one that he gets paid.
Research papers are supposed to cite the grants/contracts under which the research was performed. Journalists and editors have an obligation to cite the affiliations of their sources and op-ed authors. If those affiliations are public knowledge, e.g., part of the person’s Wikipedia entry, “He didn’t tell me” is no excuse; shills will always say they aren’t and so will non-shills.
When it comes to hiring academics, both Bush and Obama went “doctor shopping.” Bush came up with John Yoo, who had a long record of publishing the sorts of opinions he gave Bush, and Gruber had a long record of pimping the silly tax on insurance plans that give good coverage. Both presidents got what they shopped for.
So far, you’ve managed to write a grand total of nothing that makes any sense. I just read Marcy’s post again, and her questions, and even the implications of those questions, were reasonable. Krugman’s characterization of this as shrill right-wing hysteria is just flat wrong. She may not have understood something about how the HHS contracts consultants, but that really doesn’t in any way change the fact that he didn’t disclose a research relationship with the government where he was being directly paid to evaluate the efficacy of health care insurance by the government. It also doesn’t excuse the Obama Administration for pretending that he was some independent guy they just heard of somehow.
As for the irony of you calling Marcy Wheeler silly, I covered that already.
Just a for the record: “I am a paid consultant to the
Obama Administration” http://content.nejm.org/cgi/data/NEJMp0911715/DC1/1
I argued in 2008 that a proposal featuring mandates would fail in Congress due to the ease with which mandates could be targeted. Whatever the merits of that argument, a proposal with toothless mandates is now on the verge of being passed. Since it looks like there is no way to enforce the mandates, they don’t bother me. And since the proposal is now on the verge of passage (I hope), it’s kind of irrelevant.
It’s not a question whether I like Bernie Sanders or not: I am convinced by his argument. When someone who, by all evidence, is on the good side, argues that there is so much good stuff in this bill that it’s worth passing, I take it seriously. And there is a lot of good in the bill: notably the revival of the physician education funding in exchange for working in “underserved” areas that Reagan destroyed. All over America, the last aging boomers who went to medical school on that plan are the last resort of a lot of poor people. Getting reinforcements for them is a good thing. And Sanders argument that Congress is too corrupt to do much better right now seems hard to ignore. So step by step.
Good night and best wishes
Actually Krugman did “nail” it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/29/opinion/29krugman.html
As I explained before the Peace prize is given out by the Norwegians and all the other prizes (including economics) is given out by an international group of peers in that field. Different beasts. Please educate yourself before you speak.
No, it’s that he was paid for the model, and has been writing op-eds praising the plan that uses that model to show how well it will work, WITHOUT DISCLOSING THAT HE WAS PAID FOR THE MODEL that he’s writing about AS IF HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
Put it this was: If you were handed a term paper with an ‘A’ grade, how would you feel about it if the grade was given by the writer, and how would you feel about it if the grade was by a third party who didn’t know the writer at all?
What Gruber did was like giving himself an ‘A’, without telling anyone that he’d graded his own paper.
Krugman didn’t have anything that I know of to do with the repeal of the Glass Steagal. If you could provide me with evidence otherwise please do. Otherwise, stop speaking out of your arse.
gotta go, but to avoid ambiguity, that last post of mine starts with a quote from Gruber’s disclosure on his NEJM article. The url is for the disclosure document.
So I guess everyone being given grants by the HHS is a shill for the administration in power. LOL! Ok you and Marcy clearly don’t know what you guys are talking about.
Nope. He already had the model written, that was part of the grant quals, ie what supposedly made him unique enough to merit sole source contract.
Gruber has opined extensively on the merits of various proposed aspects of “the President’s health care plan” variations of which he was hired by the administration to analyze and to confer with them on the results of his analysis.
Questions of bias arise when it’s difficult to say whether he was being paid for the analysis or for cheerleading commentary.
Regardless, the issue Marcy raised was not specifically about bias but about non-disclosure, which, regardless of what Krugman (whose insights I generally give great deference on the basis of a tremendous track record) says, is a big deal and doesn’t threaten to make her just like the right wingers with their faux scandals.
Difference is I’m citing experts on the issue, and you are citing bloggers who have no training in the subject.
Ronald Reagan was all a dumbass and couldn’t find his way out of a paper bag.
Not so. The other big issues:
* Everyone is treating Gruber as the only expert witness. This makes his lack of disclosure and conflicts of interest an issue.
* Gruber’s simulation is a secret black box, and only Gruber knows what’s inside. It has not been peer reviewed. This makes excessive reliance on Gruber’s simulations dangerous.
How do we know that the White House, Congress, Krugman and everyone else is not buying a pig in a poke from Gruber?
Bob in AZ
That was discussed the other day at EW’s.
It wasn’t public knowledge; people here weren’t aware of it.
(Check the editing history, because Wikipedia isn’t that reliable; people ‘improve’ entries to protect (or to unprotect) people from controversy.)
So I guess everyone be given NIH grants is being influenced by the administration as well. Drawing parallels between them and those funded by oil companies is ludicrous.
Jesus Christ, you guys – give it a juice-box and some crackers and let it sit in the corner and whine to itself.
I did so. That’s how I got that December 1, 2008 date.
Linky no worky.
Oh, now you’re accusing EW of being clueless about academia?
You might want to apologize before her naginata goes through your liver.
Jumping to conclusions like that makes you look even more like a fool.
And really? Why do we disclose?
To avoid situations just like this.
If Gruber had been upfront all along, we might just be skeptical.
Now we’re suspicious.
Way to go Rahm.
How’s that workin’ out for you?
Jane, pitch perfect, as per usual.
I got rootless’ link @368 to work, although a bit sluggishly. It is the 4-page .pdf (or .pdf equivalent) of Gruber’s filing of an “ICMJE Uniform Disclosure Form for Potential Conflicts of Interest” (ICMJE = International Committee of Medical Journal Editors).
Before my very recent acquisition of this new PC I’m working on now, I sometimes had to download .pdf’s from within Adobe Acrobat itself. Here is that procedure, if you’re interested:
(1.) copy the link [URL] from the browser;
(2.) open the ‘PDF from Web page’ window (or similar);
(3.) paste the copied link into the newly opened window; then
(4.) execute the download.
Although that usually worked for me when opening within the browser failed, YMMV. The fact that I was using a “Professional” version of Acrobat (7.0, IIRC) may also be relevant, if (for example) the aforementioned procedure does not work with Acrobat Reader. [Just tried it with my current set-up, using Acrobat 9.0, and it worked that way as well.]
Yes, your record is perfect. Nothing you’ve written yet makes any sense, at least by the narrow definition of having something to do with reality. Marcy never wrote that, nor implied any such thing.
selise, thank you so much for all the wonderful and helpful comments.
Than why are you spending so much time in this thread?
I liked most of what Krugman had to say other than his gratuitous swipes at FDL and Marcy. But there was one other thing that stands out:
Per Jane, “Gruber received $780,713 in government contracts in 2009,” which sounds pretty fucking sweet to me, given that he also had a day-time job as a professor at MIT.
Thanks. Knowing that it’s pdf made the difference. Had to add .pdf extension to what I’d downloaded in order to open it.
In any case, November 2009 ain’t the same thing as June/July 2009.
I also like that Gruber discloses he’s a paid consultant to the Obama administration… not HHS or some other “non-political” agency or department.
Let’s say Gruber makes $120,000 in salary per year from MIT, plus $780,713 in government contracts which puts him over $1,000,000.
He would have a personal interest in advocating for the excise tax (as opposed to the millionaire’s tax in the house bill. Just sayin’.
Krugman obviously doesn’t know Marcy Wheeler who takes the same level of pride in getting it right as Krugman. Wheeler,Phd meet Krugman,Phd.
I just attempted to provide some sanity in a comment on Krugman’s op-ed. I hope it helps.
Bob in AZ
He does not have a Nobel Prize. He has a Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Memory of Alfred Nobel. There is no Nobel Prize for economics. Wonder why?
I’m told that there’s no Nobel prize in Mathematics, because Nobel’s wife ran off with a famous mathematician. Hmmmmm.
Actually, $900,713. But what’s $99,287 among friends?
Krugman is clearly insinuating that FDL is responsible for a plurality of fake scandals. After all, even if FDL is wrong about Gruber, why would there be a threat of an “endless supply of fake scandals.” Pretty clearly Krugman objects to more than this matter. What else is he getting at? Does he want to go on record on another matter? He should clear that up. Just makes me sick. Such BS for an economist for the New York Times to be taking people to task for scandals. Economics is a scandalous discipline and the New York Times is a scandalous propaganda organ.
And, while I’m at it, the Noble Prize is scandalous too. They have given to people who have done nothing. They have given it to war criminals. Even in the hard sciences, there are recipients who are less than deserving.
He’s getting at the earlier Hamsher smears and petitions directed at people (or family members of people) possibly standing in the way of a better healthcare bill.
Do you really think he’s avenging Lieberman?
No, I thought he meant to advise FDL that it was going down the wrong path in flinging shit (not unmerited in some cases, but overblown in all) as a pressure tactic.
I doubt if anyone cares about either Lieberman enough to spring to their defense on other than abstract grounds.
When I saw that there were more than 300 comments on this thread, I was intimidated; but since it was a post of Jane’s on a currently hot topic, I wanted to see how people were reacting, and how Jane was responding to the comments. Fortunately, once I identified who the trolls were, that sped up my scanning quite a bit, so that I could focus on the more substantive comments.
Awesome job, Jane!
Let’s see now. Krugman gave Kudos to Marcy for the 183 waterboardings piece, and now he’s acknowledging in public the significance of Marcy’s laying bare Gruber’s conflicts of interest, though in a back-handed kind of way.
Guess this shows that FDL is getting noticed in high places.
Jane, has there been any surge in “hits” and comments as a result of the Krugman piece?
Gratefully,
Bob in AZ
so right your are
Very interesting thread. I commented a day or so ago in another post that Krugman is capable of making some good observations but that instead of following these to their logical conclusions he would only take them so far before reverting to the mean of the Establishment groupthink.
I agree with those who think this is a reflex and ill-advised defense of a colleague. It shows that Krugman is more interested in comity in his profession than he is with letting the chips fall where they may. Most of the public won’t see this is what he is doing. Most of his colleagues will and will approve. For those of us who follow economic issues outside of academia, it is another reason to question his credibility.
Because when all is said and done this is a dodge. Krugman is taking a matter of basic professionalism and spinning it as something at once obtuse, irrelevant, and trivial. It is anything but. I think eoh’s comment at #36 is particularly insightful that Krugman is protesting too much because the criticism Gruber is receiving hits a little too close to home. Krugman’s pearl clutching, fainting spells, and otherworldly ivory towerness on this are simply piffle. It is precisely because Gruber is a technician who has worked for a long time in a policymaking capacity with the Democratic party (a fact his MIT bio extolls) that he, in particular, would understand about conflicts of interest and the need to clearly state them up front. In defending Gruber’s professional ethics Krugman assaults his own. This really was a no-brainer. As the most recent winner of the Nobel prize in economics, Krugman might have used his position to uphold the highest standards in his field, a field which has been so deeply damaged by wide and sytemic quackery. He did not.
Everyone who has grown tired of Ondelette’s line of comments in recent days can find better fare in her comment over on the Krugman with Cadillac as Chevy diary, in which she fleshes out (she wrote “flushes”) a coherent argument for why the Cadillac tax can be seen as raising wages, which she presented on earlofhuntington’s diary yesterday. This is followed by an intelligent response from Cujo359 (http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/01/10/krugman-on-the-cadillac-as-chevy/#comment-212656) [sorry, can't embed the link because I'm adding this with Edit.]
Bob in AZ
Per Jonathan Cohn, TNR’s healthcare maven on Oct. 12:
And he brags about working for Obama and the Democratic party on his web page:
And for over a year, his Wikipedia entry included:
The fact that he was working with Obama, the Democratic party, and anyone else who’d pay him was anything but a secret.
Keep trying.
Those disclosures don’t reveal the specific conflicts that might arise in providing the central “disinterested” and “independent” support for this administration’s proposed legislation, while simultaneously advocating for that legislation to become law.
Gruber and everybody in his situation was still obligated to disclose specific conflicts of interest – at the time he wrote an OpEd or made applicable comments to reporters. General statements such as the above are not adequate. He could have worked for Harold Ford or John Edwards, which would have probably presented no conflict. He didn’t. He was hired to advise the WH.
at the end of the day, what should be done about it?
should the administration resign?
should the congressional votes be voided?
That’s the question, isn’t it. This debate here has annoyed the WH by slightly pushing its insurance non-reform bandwagon off the road. It tells them that control of the tradmed is no longer enough to keep their bandwagons moving down the center of the road.
Bloggers may not choose to get with their program. They might give credible voice to other legitimate interests. They might provide hard information to pesky voters that make them less pliable and less exhausted looking for it. That’s all to the good, because it demonstrates that there is at least a small counterforce to them.
What’s important in the short term is whether the president’s insurance “reform” legislation looks more like his/the Senate’s version or the House. And we still don’t know yet. This is a game of attrition, a Mongolian horse race across the plains, not a short trot around a race track.
and that’s a fine answer. thank you.
What a minute:
You claim that:
His web page brags about it. His Wikipedia entry announces it. TNR prints it. But it’s suddenly a big revelation that he advises Barack Obama, and gets paid for it.
There’s no there there.
“His web page brags about it. His Wikipedia entry announces it. TNR prints it. But it’s suddenly a big revelation that he advises Barack Obama, and gets paid for it.
There’s no there there.”
He also lies about it to cover it up. Lying is generally dishonest, if you weren’t aware, especially when he’s getting paid three quarters of a million dollars to push Obama’s HC agenda (bleed the middle class dry). It also reflects on his credibility as an ‘expert’ (paid shill). How many lies are built into his ultra secret doubleplusgood ‘economic model’ I wonder? One? Seventeen? Nine? Is it like a Goldman Sachs MBS prospectus? There’s there there, don’t be so gullible.
In fact, who else has paid this guy for his opinions? How much did they pay, and which ones did they get?
Larry Summers , in 1995 as Under Sec. of Treasury ..was responding to a request by Mexico for a bailout . They were broke, kind of like the US govt. is now.Congress would not approve a loan.So he gave them a loan through some fund..Global something. Then he attached very high interest rates.
So in Mexico, say your house payment was set at a 7% interest rate.It jumped to about 50%. Same for vehicles , farms and businesses.This started the mass immigration problem in the US.Ever noticed nobody ever asked why so many Mexicans were coming to the US?
Alan Greenspan, in his memoir, stated that he formed a lasting bond with Rubin and Summers. The high interest rate prompted a quick pay back of the loan.
The US also got a new slave labor class.Larry Summers has had the same kind of track record with his unique form of financial expertise with Russia. This man destroys entire countries , not just Harvard.
i completely agree. see last year’s jan lancet, mass privatization and the post-communist mortality crisis: a cross-national analysis. 3 million dead.
It’s obvious at this point – even to someone who hasn’t had time to dive into the details (like me) – that the proto-HCR bill has some really bad features. Just to add to the ugliness, there is clearly some built-in divide-and-conquer politics incorporated into the political/legislative sausage-making.
I have some questions, for which I am sure there are posts/diaries here at FDL (and elsewhere) that provide answers – if anyone has any recommendations for reading, I would be grateful for some relevant links.
At this point, the last shot for improvements in the bill is in the reconciliation process, if I understand correctly. If that fails to improve the legislation – and apparently it could even make things worse, depending on who prevails in the negotiations – is that the point at which most of the FDL community says the bill needs to be killed, or am I misunderstanding the process? And if the bill gets killed, is it the position of (most of) FDL that we need to go back to the (political) drawing board, with double the effort? Practically, I assume that would mean primarying the most odious and vulnerable Blue Dogs, hammering lazy/corrupt media, and whatever other means are available that potentially offer a net benefit.
If the necessity of this latter option comes to pass, do the denizens of FDL have some basis for optimism that this issue can be successfully resurrected in the next Congress? And does such optimism extend to the possibility of getting a few more progressive/liberal/leftie allies elected to Congress who would help the HCR cause in the next session? I am really curious on these questions, since I am guessing that returning incumbents will still be licking their wounds and scratching their scabs from this current HCR battle, and not wanting to relive this experience.
This thing is bringing back memories of Ralph Nader’s 2000 Presidential campaign, wherein he basically said that both major parties were under control by corporate overlords, and neither deserved support. He was/is mostly right on the corporate control business, IMO, but what to do [then and now]? In that election, the choices were unpleasant (as they usually are) – did you “throw away your vote” on a third party (even in a so-called battle-ground state)? Did you say screw it and stay home on Election Day? Or did you vote for the least odious candidate/party, and settle for the hope of making incremental changes in what is essentially a corporate-rigged game (rigged via lack of campaign finance laws, dishonest/dishonorable media, etc.).
To many I suppose it seems that the best approach in the long run – whether in the Nader case or in HCR – would seem to involve letting the whole “system” get close enough to collapse that sufficient numbers of voters get motivated to ‘do the right thing,’ with the possible collateral benefit of taking down the whole fetid Big-Money superstructure in the process. Is there a basis for optimism that voters will do the ‘right thing’ in such a scenario, or will that Fox network propaganda playing in the background in so many homes – heard while making dinner, running the vacuum, playing with the kids, etc. – be the message that prevails?
We’ll never know for sure, of course, but do Nader’s ‘trivial differences’ between the two parties presume that hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed-for-life people (citizens of USA, Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere) would still have resulted from a Gore presidency? It could have been, I suppose, especially if V.P. Lieberman had been put in charge of anything. But odds of the same outcome would have been much less, IMO. By the same token, the current crappy version of HCR going through Congress would help a LOT of people who currently have nothing; I would welcome some good reading (post/diary here or elsewhere) on how such folks can be helped if this current HCR bill is successfully killed, and the odds that such help can in fact be provided in the current (and near term future) political environment.
Whether actively working to pass this bill in its current form, or to kill it, will be an expression of faith I think. In the former case, the hope will be that the newly created health care “structure” can be repaired over time, with huge effort required to move Washington to do so; and making things worse, the current bill shovels tons of money into the gaping maws of the very insurance interests that are fighting against the interests of our nation and its citizens. Killing the bill also requires optimism, in the possibility that the same huge effort can be undertaken again in the next (hopefully better) Congress, hopefully leading to a different (better) outcome.
I have little optimism for success in following the latter option, and not much more optimism for the former – at least for the short term. Supporters of the current crappy version of the bill do have history on their side, in some small measure, insofar as killing this bill makes resurrection of the issue in Congress a real long shot – after all, did the past failures to get HCR through Congress results in strong efforts in the next sessions? No they did not. Why would things be different this time around?
I very reluctantly concur with the stance taken by Lindsey Beyerstein, and like rootless above, I have a lot of respect for Bernie Sanders on this issue. But if there are good reads out there that provide solid arguments to the contrary, including (especially) activities/approaches/tactics that offer some odds for success, I’d love to know about them. Given the activity going on at FDL on this issue, I am sure they must exist.
Apologies for the length of this comment, and thanks to those who persisted in reading it.
Great post up on HuffPo now re. Larry Summers. And to think he was being considered for Bernake’s job.
Agreed. Krugman is a very well off, elite academic who constantly watches his portfolio and talks his book. This is the antithesis of objective scholarly analysis.
Unfortunately, his perch at the NYT and his D-Party shrillery gives him much more credibility than he deserves with a “liberal” audience. Although, even they have been giving him a harder time on this Senate bill. I think it’s a good time to depose the naked emperor.
Also agree that Dean Baker calls it a little more honest. The liberal/left side of the aisle needs to find some new, merely partly naked emperors.
Although, frankly, anyone who couldn’t figure out that the “health insurance mandate” was going to be a mandate to buy private insurance in the current political environment, needs to engage in some serious assumption testing self-analysis.
Krugman, OTOH, is already enjoying the fruits of the mandate. I GUARANTEE you. The NYTimes would do well to demand full disclosure of investment holding from ALL its economic writers.
Let’s keep up the “no credibility” drive on these people. They clearly find it disconcerting to have their entitled corruption questioned.
I think its likely we will need to dispose of them before we get to the real criminal cabal at the center of our multiple, larger economic and political crises.
But for her argument to make any sense that is what one would have to assume.
My view is that the bill should die, nothing in the history of it shows any indication that it will help more than it harms, and all that’s happening is that deals, threats and payoffs are being made to get the votes to pass the POS. Dems will pay dearly in Nov for a mandate w/o a public option, and they should. They caved repeatedly for what they said they stood for. Weiner. Sanders. Franken. Feingold. What use are these people?
As for the future, the best we can focus on is not partisan battles but stopping more of the burdens of the economy being shoved onto the middle class by Obama, Frank, Pelosi, and Reid. They don’t represent us, and the reps like them don’t represent republicans. More and more people are internalizing this fact and sooner or later the tide will turn. Whatever happens, the bullshit we’ve got going with these bought and sold legislators has got to stop before we trust them fucking around with health care again.
Kill the bill, and dismiss the sellouts in our party. There won’t be many left, but the ones who are will know what we expect.
I’ve seen no evidence of that.
The closest I’ve seen is this claim by an NYT editor that he violated a contract by failing to “tell editors of such a relationship” in July “that he is a paid consultant to the Deartment of Health and Human Services.”
This is one of the nation’s top news orgizations and they claim that not to have “been aware of” what this guy does for a living, even though its on his web page and his Wikipedia entry and TNR knew it and so on. Ultimately, he’s a healthcare researcher who lives off of government contracts — the bulk of them surely from HHS! (Presumably, MIT makes most of their money by the overhead they charge on most faculty research contracts. But it’s not clear where that line gets drawn.)
Romo2austin – All the evidence anyone needs is Krugman’s SILENCE when repealing Glass-Steahall wassailing thru Congress. It’s appalling he didn’t see it worthwhile to utter one word about the probability for abuse from unfettering our moneycenter banks from meaningful regulatory oversight.
Perhaps the problem here is that you like that this Senate Bill leeches the middle class out every conceivable end, a guaranteed program of debt and impoverishment?
Do you deliver services to the poor with no employment prospects elsewhere? More poor is good for you, perhaps?
Certainly, the republicans look to be correct when they say the Democratic Party creates poverty so people will vote D. Perhaps we’re just seeing this tactic move into a whole new phase.
You can’t lick crumbs off fascist boots (and this is a fascist government). Keep trying it and you’ll learn that for yourself soon enough.
“The problem I have about this debate is that it focuses on Gruber’s character / credibility, when it should focus on the integrity and validity of his HCR micro-modeling.”
Maybe THAT’s the real point here. He’s hiding his micro-modeling so that other experts cannot peer review him.
Instead they have the liberal/left public up in arms because the tax his results are being used to advocate will further leech the middle class. Thus, the public is the interested, non-objective party while Krugman et al defend “the expert.”
I want the non-bought out academic community to vet his work, as was traditionally done in traditional academia BEFORE outside corporate and partisan-government contracts became the new way of funding American research universities. I’m sure there’s someone out there who remembers how objective research works.
Something stinks to high heaven here. Gruber must stop concealing evidence. You know, Congress is part of the legal system. Perhaps our “experts” need to be reminded of this.
“So Gruber of MIT and Krugman a Nobel Prize winner who teaches at Princeton are propagandists? HA!”
YES. They are. This whole conversation ultimately centers on the funding of American research universities by outside grants and contracts, of both corporate and partisan-government sponsorship.
They are indeed PROPAGANDISTS.
Meanwhile, the soft side disciplines have been arguing that it doesn’t really matter because there is “no objectivity” anyway. This is in turn promoted as some sort of means of giving voice to the oppressed–which renders it unquestionable, despite the fact that this just turns everything into a contest of raw power, a contest the oppressed will always by definition lose.
Congratulations to all.
Emptywheel was interviewed on David Shuster’s The Place for Politics this morning.
Bob in AZ
” He also lies about it to cover it up.
I’ve seen no evidence of that.
The closest I’ve seen is this claim by an NYT editor that he violated a contract by failing to “tell editors of such a relationship” in July “that he is a paid consultant to the Deartment of Health and Human Services.””
From 306 upthread.
““UPDATE: Washington Post op-ed editor Autumn Brewington emails that the Post, as a practice, asks writers to disclose any “conflicts of interest that might be relevant to this op-ed, including but not limited to financial or family relationships with any of the subjects of the article” and that Gruber, when asked whether he “received any funding, for research or otherwise, from organizations or persons identified in the column,” answered “no.””
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0110/Grubers_disclosure.html?showall
Your welcome.
I think your last statement applies to your comment: there’s no there, there
General disclosures do not reveal specific conflicts any more than general descriptions in SEC filings adequately reveal problems or opportunities with specific customers, suppliers or accounting problems.
Specificity rules and for each encounter, just as Robert Wagner tells you each time he sells mediocre life insurance that he’s a paid spokesman – for that insurer.
That overstates Krugman’s conflicts and justifies his concern about FDL becoming a rag. He is sometimes very establishment – he teaches at Princeton for gawd’s sake – but is often left of it.
Mr. Krugman is as complex as they come. Shoehorning his motives into a small box doesn’t mean they fit in it. It does our critique of Gruber, the administration’s legislation and Krugman’s usually unwarranted criticism of FDL any good.
You’re quoting out of context:
So it has been generally known for over a year that he has been an ongoing consultant to Obama and the Democratic Party. Now we know how much he’s been paid and that HHS signs the checks. So what? His biases were already public information.
Krugman’s point is that this matter has been overblown here.
In response to earlofhuntingdon @ 430
Are you really saying that you wouldn’t have known otherwise?
I’ve been through this before. Her making excuses for him does not change the fact that he lied (lied, you know, lied…) about having a quarter million conflicts of interest in his bank account, courtesy of taxpayers you and I. Why is this so hard to grasp for you people?
Try harder.
We don’t know how she phrased her question to him. Nor do we know how he phrased his answer. All we have is her claim about what happened, and she visibly does not feel deceived. And it well may be that the agency who pays him, HHS, was not “identified in the article.”
O.V.E.R.B.L.O.W.N.
Here is the title of the Post editorial he wrote,
“‘Cadillac’ tax isn’t a tax — it’s a plan to finance real health reform”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/27/AR2009122701714.html
Are you telling me Obama paid him three quarters of a million dollars of our money for something not related to health care?
P.A.I.D. S.H.I.L.L
I’m tired of shills, so bye.
If you want to be technical, per Autumn Summers:
But, neither HHS nor Obama nor the White House was “identified in the column.”
If you want to be not so technical, per Autumn Summers:
Either way, she doesn’t support your accusation.
Please understand that I think that Gruber is an overpaid hack who has written a lame computer program that gives lame answers that people are paying too much attention to. But the culprits here are the journalists who simply collect quotes without identifying their sources beyond their institutional titles.
This guy will plug anyone’s numbers into his computer for a fee and report the answers, which always come out the same: “Discouraging good insurance policies is a good idea,” which is horseshit on the face of it. And it’s his horseshit that need to be attacked, not the fact that he didn’t tell that he worked for the Obama and the Democrats, except on his web page and his Wikipedia entry.
I’m hoping someone who knows how is checking Professor Krugman’s possible conflict of interest attachments. His rush to defend Gruber’s indefensible shilling for the Obama Administration smells a bit like a reaction to an early warning that provokes self-defense.
When we find Krugman on the wrong side of an issue it should only serve to remind us that Jane was/is right: the issue is the important thing; you gather allies to resolve issues. Those who place loyalty to groups above doing the right thing are most comfortable in organized crime families.
OK, there’s a lot of angst here but it seems like Krugman was on to something in suggesting it doesn’t amount to the kind of World Historical Scandal FDL is implying.
Look at this line in their box calling for folks to sign a petition of protest to the White House re this “scandal”:
“This is a huge ethical violation that undermines the entirety of health care reform.”
Um, really? Get a grip, folks.
Please continue a substantive discussion of the issues.
But when you go on the war path looking for conspiracies and cover-ups, Krugman is right, you do sound not just overwrought, but a little bit like the far right conspiracy crowd.
LOL. Ok so you have nothing on him apparently.