The policy arguments aside, I have a tough time understanding politically why the Democrats did not use reconciliation to pass a big bill labeled “health care reform” (with many of the smaller dropped pieces bundled into a small “insurance regulatory reform” bill, or slipped piece-by-piece into big defense, ag, or appropriations bills). By September, it became very clear that the fight had become very partisan, that the bill labeled “health care reform” would not be overwhelmingly popular, and that there would be no real Republican cover for conservative Democrats in the Senate. The vote for health care has become politically toxic for conservative Democratic senators from conservative states like Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln.
A new Rasmussen poll found that Blanche Lincoln does not break 39% against any possible Republican opponent. The poll also indicates her vote for health care reform (which has become very unpopular in Arkansas) might be a real cause of her dropping poll numbers.
2* Generally speaking, do you strongly favor, somewhat favor, somewhat oppose or strongly oppose the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and the congressional Democrats?
17% Strongly favor
18% Somewhat favor
9% Somewhat oppose
51% Strongly oppose
5% Not sure
By insisting that the bill be passed using regular order, where it would need all 60 votes in the Democratic caucus to break a filibuster, Obama and Harry Reid made many conservative Democrats in the Senate take votes that were not in their political self-interest. The issue had become so partisan, attempts by conservative Democrats like Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln to make the bill more “centrist-y” and lard it up with local pork simply backfired. The conservative constituents are still angry because, in the end, they still voted for something labeled “health care reform,” and the Democratic base in state is now pissed because they ended up crippling the bill for seemingly no reason (let’s not forget Lincoln’s Senate website still claimed she supported a public option even as she was saying on the Senate floor that she would filibuster any bill that had one).
Passing the bill using reconciliation with only 50 votes would have allowed several conservative Democrats–like Ben Nelson, Blanche Lincoln, Evan Bayh, and Mary Landrieu–to avoid taking a tough political vote.
Some have argued that using reconciliation would have made the bill less popular by making it appear more partisan. My response is that a bill that will end up passing without a single Republican vote can’t appear any more partisan. Even if using reconciliation did make the bill slightly less popular, the political ramifications for the Senate Democrats would still have been better. Democrats have 50 senators who are wither from solidly blue states, retiring, or not up for re-election for another 6 years; that’s enough to safely pass the bill from an electoral stand point.
The electoral politics of not using reconciliation perplex me. It would have given most of the Senate’s conservative Democrats freedom to vote against the bill, and made the progressive base much happier. It is true that the Republicans and the conservative media would scream bloody murder about using reconciliation, but does anyone think they could really yell louder crazy stuff about health care reform than they already have? Republicans threatened to shut down the Senate if they used reconciliation, but they already have anyway. I don’t understand why the decision was made to make senators like Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln walk the plank on this vote.




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Now that you mention it, it’s a good question!!
It’s maddening. It’s either intentional or unintentional, right? They’re evil, but they’re not stupid (or maybe they are). They know the ramifications of what they do. And they do what they want. I think that Rahm is intentionally trying to scuttle the Dems in ’10.
Why? I think Rahm has been surprised by the growing backlash from the left. The Hope-a-Dope still works on most Dems, who by nature are not political animals, and so have yet to notice that the Pres is just another corporate tool. But as conditions on the ground deteriorate in ’10, unease will become unrest, and the Dem brand will tank.
Rahm needs to go back to the winning playbook from the election, but he can’t this year, because the Dems now control Congress. SO, how to make it look like Obama is fighting heroically against the reactionary GOP? The only way to pull this stunt off is to LOSE to the GOPers this year, so that Obama will look like an underdog in 2012!
In the meant time, the merger of Wall St and Wash DC will continue apace. Maybe Rahm knows that elections don’t matter, because the winners are selected anyway. And despite Pelosi’s blathering, it sure seems like elections don’t have consequences anymore.
The answer is simple.
The Dems are pulling one of the biggest scams ever pull on the american people.
None of this HCR crap makes any common sense.
the only issue in the USA since 2008, has been the economy.
Obama and the Dems doing a HCR bill in the middle of a depression/great recession was crazy.
the points Jon makes in this article makes it more crazy.
this is worse con job I have ever seen.
Like Naomi Kline says Dems don’t do shock docrine well.
Obama says he is for taxing Cadillac Insurance plans? Wow
and people still believes he is a progressive.
I think the plot is more sinister than that.
I think the powers that be are using Obama and Rahm to neutralize the progressive movement.
1st Obama intentionally does nothing for progressives (result low morale for progressives)
2nd 2010 election Obama and Rahm get to work with the GOP (Obama = Bush, so this keeps the status quo happy)
3rd 2011 Candidate Obama reappears (Obama talks like a progressive again, and the MSM portrays him as a Hero of the left)
4th 2014 Insurance Individual mandate goes into effect, MSM calls it a progressive idea, ruining the chances of any Dem in 2016. (the MSM blames progressives for the Insurance Mandate)
the elites thinks these strategies will keep progressives from taking over DC and killing Wall Street.
Progressives must organize in 2010, like it is 2008, but make the targets Corp Dems.
Progressive must also tell the MASSSES what is going on here.
Many don’t want to see this, but Harry Reid is a blazing Moderate who came to his position after beating the more leftist Dodd and remains ML through his appeasing of the other Moderates positions.
Knowing how destructive Lieberman is to the Left -why did Reid gave him all of his seniority back?? Lieberman only strengthens the Mod position.
It’s absolutely a fact that Harry Reid could have changed the Senate rule regarding the filibuster at any time. He’s is considered a master of the Senate rules. But that would have meant running over his Mods-Lincoln, Lieberman, Nelson etc.
Rahm and Obama are top notch players. They knew damn well what would happen to the bill if Master Harry was put in charge.
What ultimately did happen this summer while Rahm and Obama turned their backs and to the bill’s continuing state of decay caused by a small group of self-serving Moderate Democrats is the most stunning group case of cronyism and political negligence ever.
Next time, iron the pacakaging creases out of the flag before the photo.
Also, a net loss of about 3 Senate seats (including Reid and Lincoln, who appears to be toast) could be the best thing to happen to the Dems in some time.
The only possible answer is that the senate bill is exactly what Obama and Emanuel wanted.
Isn’t it obvious? Obama and Rahm never planned to have real reform from the start. If they did they would lose all the money from insurance companies and the like, and all of it would go to Republicans. So they threatened to reform the system so that the insurance companies would buy them off. And they can use that money to shout over complains about Dem candidates and themselves in 2012. The real question is is there any point to voting for Dems anymore?
Recnciliation is for amendments. Blaming Obama for Lieberman’s vote against the public option rises or descends to the same level as blaming JH for contributing to Lieberman’s election. It might be that that accusation has more plausibility than blaming Obama for Lieberman’s vote on the public option.
Frankly, I don’t think the Dems need members like Lincoln and Nelson. The question should have been asked if they don’t like the HCR bill because it is a pathetic excuse for reform (thanks to Lincoln, Nelson, Lieberman, et. al.).
The Dems blew it because the People WANT real reform, not a gift to the insurance industry and big PhRMA. Giving cover to the ilk of Lincoln and Nelson only prolongs the problem.
I will support progressive primary challenges to those standing in the way of reform. I have already told numerous fund raisers for the DSCC and DCCC that they won’t be receiving one dime of my money because I don’t want it supporting ConservaDems that undermine bringing real change to Washington.
The people elected Obama to bring change and gave him a democratic majority to get it done. He and they have squandered the opportunity and that is why more people are disenchanted with the Democratic Party and disgusted with Washington.
11-dimension chess.
I agree that the Hope-a-Dope stategery is designed to neutralize progs. I wrote somewhere else that not having a single GOPe vote for HCR (really, it should be HIR, the I for Insurance), was so that the Dems would wholly own it, and because the Dems are (erroneously) perceived as “left-wing”, the entire fiasco will be blamed on progs. So, it’s a clever move – give Wall St what it wants….and blame it as the apotheosis of left-wing politics! The GOPers get their Big PhRMA hand-out AND they get to campaign against it!
The Overton window moves another galaxy to the right, and the Dems run as some sort of slightly-less-evil alternative. By 2012, Obama will be able to run as a 2008-model GOPer and be portrayed as a moderate alternative to whatever freakazoid nazi the GOPers pull out of their ass.
Wall St will be amused by the horserace, because either way THEY WIN.
And that’s the only answer that’s needed to this entire screed. A better question is what the hell were certain people thinking in ginning up money to run ads against Lincoln, when the problem was clearly, from the beginning, Reid, Pelosi and Obama.
…cause it was never about reform, it was always intended to be, and is a tax increase and a welfare benefit program and they think the Party of NO and big bad Ben gave them cover…IMO
Loading it up with local pork is what did them in. They should have just voted for it.
Yep. They will get the bill they wanted. And to some degree they get to blame the Republicans for threatening to filibuster. Most people will swallow that.
As for the Conservadems, well…they’d rather see R’s in those seats anyway so that they can continue to blame Republicans for Obama’s policies.
I think the answer is that reconciliation requires that the bill in question affects the budgets bottom line (the Byrd Rule). Since the president made a huge deal about the HRC being a “budget neutral” measure, that would prevent it from being done in reconciliation.
Here’s a thought: even if you need surgery, if you don’t trust the surgeon you won’t consent.
Do you trust the government we have to run health care competently?
Most don’t.
have a tough time understanding politically why the Democrats did not use reconciliation to pass a big bill labeled “health care reform” (with many of the smaller dropped pieces bundled into a small “insurance regulatory reform” bill, or slipped piece-by-piece into big defense, ag, or appropriations bills).
Why didn’t they go for a string of small bills? A whole bunch of them? ‘This bill will do X! This bill will do Y!’
Because they decided back in April or May or so they were going to do everything, and doing everything, meant making tons of shitty compromises. They went for the appearance of success over the actual success.
Why did they decide anything the banks wanted was OK, as long as it ‘saved’ the economy, even though it would kill the people in their base? Because Obama picked a bunch of advisors who would give that kind of advice, because they think that’s a good plan.
People take about influence in malevolent terms, like this or that President is deciding to be a shithead – whereas as far as I can tell, they slick types tell ‘Mr. President’ that he can only do X, Y and Z, and everybody in DC agrees, and then off they go. Even if, or maybe especially if, X, Y AND Z are incredibly idiotic when viewed from the big picture.
It takes a great deal of mental strength and sheer stubbornness to bull your way through wrong advice from people you trust (because they’re billed as ‘experts’). They’re experts at the top of the pile, of course, because they’re specialized in knowing the field well enough to vomit out 2000 words of pure horseshit on the field while they focus on what they actually want to do.
Obama larded the important staffing positions with ‘moderate’ corporate Republican types and they’re giving him moderate corporate advice.
Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity (and careerism and delusion and poor intel).
Obama appears to lack the mental capability to cope with the situation, so he gets bogged down in the noise of ‘we have to do this, we have to do that, we can’t do that, Wall Street will hate us’, and doesn’t have the emotional inclination to fight, or the ideological viewpoint that would require fighting.
Our problem is that over the last 20 years, the experts and the establishment have managed (and are managing) to be pretty much wrong about everything (on a long-term basis, and often on a short-term basis as well), partly out of poor intel, partly out of cultural inclination, partly out of simple inertia.
So if you start off well-off and take the loudest expert advice from the last 20 years, you’re doing pretty well personally, while the country has gone to hell, and people are just puzzled as fuck about it. (You can hear it when they talk.)
Thus do we have the situation of right-wingers being convinced that Obama is a communist instead of G.H.W. Bush, while they heap praise on the capitalism of the Chinese, who are actual communists. (And whom, not to put too fine a point on it, have it in for us, for various reasons, some excellent, others bad.)
As near as I can tell, if you shut off the cable tv news, and stop listening to political speeches (from either side), it becomes a lot easier to filter out the noise and see what’s actually going on. Problem is, is that then when you try to discuss this, people look at you funny.
max
['Truly the highest quality black comedy.']
i’m not sure how I feel about it.
i think the HCR bill is terrible. But, if it means walking colostomy bags like Lincoln, Landrieu, Nelson, and Reid are sent packing, i don’t really have a problem with that.
Slightly OT (sorry), but relevant to the discussion at large:
Geithner’s Fed Told AIG to Limit Swaps Disclosure
Will the Piratocracy pin Great Depression 2.0 on Tim the Errand Boy, or
does none of this even matter anymore?
Because Harry Reid is the worst Majority Leader in the history of the Senate.
That’s why.
It’s so bad that now Nelson is trying to cover his ass by demanding that the terms of the Cornhusker kickback apply to all states.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-health-care-nelson,0,616682.story
Well, the govt doesn’t have to run it, they could just pay for it.
Besides that, why is it that all the big medical industry problems are not in the programs already paid for, or run, by the govt?
Belies a fundamental misunderstanding of what happens, considering there never was a Lieberman vote on the public option. But thanks for playing!
Idiot poll, doesn’t ask why it’s opposed?…no public option/single payer. Who wouldn’t be against health but criminals?
…well that would be easily changed, by adjusting any of the real or imagined assumption that are in the current business case, like assume we (Government) will never save ohhh 10 percent of what we have assumed we would save, and there ya go no longer netural …net add
strawman, meet afterthought.
Yeah, Americans who are on Medicare and VA just hate it.
Government-paid or -run health care works, even if that’s not what was being proposed this year for the rest of us.
hmmm Dodd’s new job ya think?
Not to be overly nitpicky, but note that `beg the question’ is not synonymous with `raise the question.’ Here, the question is raised, rather than begged. To beg the question is to give a circular argument. Otherwise, nice post.
Criminals would be all in favor of the Public Option. They can’t get health insurance from their employer you know.
There was speculation on that yesterday. Another fox to guard the hen house.
Obama was afraid of this
Do you trust Medicare? Most do.
The inescapable conclusion is that Obama does not see himself as an agent of the Democratic electoral base, but rather an agent of the entrenched corporate powers, as well as the powerful military-intelligence bureaucracies. He begins by asking what those entrenched interests want, then goes about planning to implement it. Hence he early on made the secret deal with big Pharma, and the rest was cynical maneuvering to thwart the progressive base and leverage the Blue Dogs+Lieberman to shove the corporate agenda down the throat of the Senate and especially the House. His enforcer is Rahm Emmanuel, who developed his specialty by sabotaging the campaigns of antiwar candidates. Obama and Emmanuel simply regard the left as an obstacle to be struck down and cast aside.
In this malevolent plotting, the 60-vote rule is a very convenient weapon to beat down the left with and use as an excuse to fill this bill (and any bill for that matter) with the most unpopular right-wing agendas. If he went with reconciliation, he would not need the Blue Dogs and in theory could pass a much more progressive agenda, but he does not want to do that. The Blue Dogs and the 60-vote rule are his perfect foil.
stop making so much sense, dude. my mind is done being boggled.
I totally agree with you.
…yes and he makes the right choice for himself, if the left is pissed well we cry, that other crowd would boot him out for office
Good Afternoon Jon and Firedogs,
though we had already covered this :D
WH to plank walkers – ” No, we’re all in this together, you too. any repercussions will be a collective hit bitchez”
which of course makes for perfect cover if what you want is a HCR pkg designed to please Stakeholders
and do not ever forget, bushco could not have rammed all the things they did down our throats without the complicity of pelosi, reid and democratic legislators like obama and rahm emmanuel.
Is that what we call “unintended consequences” nowadays?
Really, so If I started this process at age 20, i will be what 80?? by the time we elect enough ‘good’ dems to congress? An occasional honest person gets in (for example Al Franken) but he will go nowhere, they won’t let him anywhere near the controls. It’s a one party system. I think we need to realize this first, it’s us against them, they are not for us, never were, they can smile and lie right to our face without an ounce of shame (see Obama’s campaign). At what point do we realize reform is never gonna be achieved by just trying to elect some good democrats…there’s a handfull of trustworthy senators at the very most…a majority just isn’t going to happen.
Not exactly. It’s related, but separate. It means to assume the premise of your argument without dealing with it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
At this point, by the way, it also means “to raise the question”. So many people use it that way now that calling it “incorrect” becomes just silly. I hate it too, but whaddya gonna do?
It is not over. All of them will have the opportunity to vote against the final “much different” bill after is it out of the “non-conference”.
Although the idea of Obama sandbagging corporateDems is seductive, it is more likely that this is not the final way these folks will vote. And it is that final vote that will be the scarlet letter on the campaign trail.
I noticed the next question on the Ras poll asked “What is the biggest problem with the health care bill?” 51% answered “Cost,” while “Universal Coverage” came in a distant second at 18%. I recall when Lincoln was posturing at the beginning of the debate, this website was citing polls indicating the majority of voters wanted the public option, and Lincoln was not representing the majority interest of her state, which at that time brought up the threat of a primary challenger. I realize the debate has moved on to cost-related issues, but I’d like to know if her unfavorablity rating is due to progressive or conservative dissatisfaction. Both sides can take issue with different aspects (taxes, penalties, mandates, gov’t subsidy) that can be grouped under the heading “Cost.” I’d be curious to see polling that breaks this down further. By the way, the rest of the Ras results don’t look good for Obama, his Afghan strategy, and most else. They like their governor, though.
Reconciliation was talked about too late in the game anyway.
But Harry has/had the sole power to change the rule requiring 60 votes down to a simple majority. After giving the Moderates and the Right ample time to weigh into Obama’s bi-partisan pipe dream and after watching the dream collapse onto the whole bill Harry could/should have changed the rules to fit passing a good bill.
And Obama would have backed him.
If, they both wanted our idea of what a ‘good’ bill is.
I for one am glad these conservadems had to vote for their own shenanigans. Why the heck should we advocate giving them cover?
After all folks like Mike Ross who royally screwed up the House bill got to vote against final passage.
Let them eat their mistakes!
Or Dorgan‘s.
I normally don’t play grammar police for any postings, since it’s not considered in good form, but when the error is in the headline, it’s hard for me to resist. Please learn the proper meaning of the term “to beg the question.” It’s not what you think it is. The real meaning has to do with circular reasoning and logical fallacies. You might better have used the simpler “prompts” or “raises” the question.
Love your handle.
We should federalize Medicaid. It would help state budgets (thus helping Dem Govs) and it can be paid for by hiking medicare tax on high earners (more progressive than state sales taxes), thus being deficit neutral – so only 50 votes.
As I understand it, Reconciliation could only be used for PART of the proposed bill. 60 votes would still be required for the rest.
Something that doesn’t seem to be factored in here is the poll numbers in these states. From what I have seen the publis option is favored by a majority. How much of this disapproval rating is dissatisfaction because the present bill from the Senate is considered to be too weak? From the Progressive point of view this is an important consideration and should be in the forefront of any discussion about Benson or Lincoln.
Nice question, Jon. Maybe Rahm isn’t as smart as everyone thinks. Question is, why are Blanche and Ben sitting still for it. Why don’t they just tell Harry they won’t vote for the hcr bill under any conditions?
1) Reconciliation would have given Republicans essentially unlimited opportunities to challenge thousands of points of order and drag the process out for years. Literally: years.
2) You can’t get big important things done through reconciliation, like remove the ban on pre-existing conditions or create a health insurance exchange.
3) If passed through reconciliation, HCR would sunset in 10 years, rather than be a permanent fixture.
Blanche and Ben are for health care reform because any sensible Democrat is for health care reform: because it will provide health insurance to millions of people who do not currently have it. They (or rather also know perfectly well that if HCR fails, then Democrats face the electorate in 2010 with no major legislative accomplishments, and that would be devastating to all Democratic prospects.
I thought Rahm Emmanuel was supposed to be a political wizard. His whole approach seems to have doomed conservadems like Lincoln and Nelson. Wouldn’t it have been smarter to go with the nuclear option as far as filibuster goes or the President actually in front championing specific health care reforms? This whole thing seems very fouled up in the end: conservadems required to support are going to get beat, and progressives get a shitty bill. So much for reaching across the aisle.
I am not buying this premise at all.
Before the senate bill was passed, FDL and Act Blue hit me up for money to run ads in Arkansas calling out Lincoln for not supporting the wishes of her electorate based on polling that showed wide support for a public option and little support for an HCR bill WITHOUT a public option.
Seems to me that far from being thrown under the bus, Blanche committed hari kari by jumping in front of the bus,
It should be clear to all by now that there are those opposed to ANY HC reform and those opposed to the form HC legislation is taking. Combined they represent a large percentage but really have little in common.
At the start of the SIX WEEK recess at the end of summer I asked for 10 minutes with each of my reps. Got a quiz about my views from a staffer for one center. A 30 minute face to face meeting with my Senator and an email saying she couldn’t spare 10 minutes from Blanche. THAT is why I will not vote for her.
This isn’t rocket science. The Senate could have passed via reconciliation a simple three page bill to expand and fund the existing Medicare system to cover everyone. There isn’t much to challenge by point of order and it couldn’t be filibustered so it could have passed by 50 votes plus Biden before the August recess. The odds of Republicans 10 years in the future voting to repeal a Medicare for All system are about as slim as Republicans voting to repeal Medicare today.
Heck, the Democrats could haved tacked on a revenue-neutral carbon tax that’d gradually replace the payroll tax (admittedly, it would add a whopping 16 pages to the original three page bill) and tackled climate change in the same 51 vote budget reconciliation bill last summer.
Nahh, that’s too easy, instead let’s try to get 60 votes to pass (separately) a 2000 page healthcare bill and a 1500 page cap and trade bill.
Nobody forced them to hold out the way they did. If they had acquiesced to the president’s agenda (for the nation) and run the bill through Congress like snot through a pig, then they might have lost a few percentage points of popularity, but the opposition wouldn’t have had time to run down the legislation. But, they had to go negative, independent, ornery and now they’re paying the price.
a pity
I regret that I reside in but one state that has a Democrat running for re-election against whom I can vote. Ms. Lincoln, my vote is going to whoever looks the closest to whupping you. I don’t care what party. I hate ‘em both now anyway. Can’t wait for 2012 so I can vote this same way against Obama.
I think Barack Obama swore on a C-Street Bible in a dark back room to be a good little empty suit. He’s wobbling around with a grin on his face and a crown on his head just like Bush did. His goal as “president” is to see to it that feeling comfy on Martha’s Vineyard becomes second nature to his beloved kids. That’s it. No higher goal does he have.
I don’t think so in this case. Mostly the leadership tried to run it through quickly and some Blue Dogs & Lieberman & Snowe said “not so fast”, so here we are. Progressives made many concessions to keep it going along and that never quite satisfied them. They’ve made their beds…
Those who support the bill and the speedy process will receive their applause from the public who like the reform.
Those who opposed or slowed it will pay a price of being a Dem (no support from Repubs) or of being a not-very-supportive Dem opposing their president’s national agenda.
These things happen. It’s Darwinian in a sense.
That’s not such a horrible thing, but don’t expect it to get any R votes.
The main advantage of having states pay some is that it invests them in making it work.
Without that the program would be simpler and still work for people and there won’t be state taxation.
It could be just fine this way. I would applaud anything at this point which moves it along quickly without damaging the outcome.
I guess that indicates they’re still stupid enough to believe Republican propaganda. The bill will save money as that is one of it’s major goals and it was designed to do that and the CBO says it will do that.
No wonder they vote Repub, they believe all that hooey hook line and sinker.
Progressives gave a lot of concessions.
What was conceded in the other direction? Nada.
Let’s just get this done and learn from the experience.
rahm works for the shadow government, it wants as few democrats as possible…
thousands of pages of mediocrity yet that joker from goldman sachs showed up with 3 pages and got trillions in a matter of days with no dissent,wonderful
I think it’s Rahm’s attempt to destroy the democratic majority from the inside
“Good form” or not, I have to say “thank you!” for this comment. The pervasive misuse of “begs the question” is driving me crazy.
Weak votes define weak politicians. A bold vote would have had bolder poll numbers. Fuck a bunch of pitching outside and walking batters just so they can be safely on base. Put down bright foul lines–over here is a hit for pharma and Wellpointe. Over here, is good for American families. Make them vote for who they represent.
Thanks beowulf. You saved me the trouble.
I agree with you. The “great and powerful Oz” seems to be controlling Obama’s Presidency and the “progressive” or “liberal” Dem voters always seem to be stuck in the “poppy” fields, where they know,understand, and can discuss with remarkable intelligence what is actually happening but are seemingly unable to move/act effectively to do anything about it.
Huh?