One of the reasons that FDL was never quite comfortable during the primary battles was because the context for the conversation here has always been issue-based. And frankly, there just wasn’t much difference between the leading Democratic candidates when it came to issues. The voting records of Clinton and Obama were almost identical, and although Edwards voiced more concern over the issue of poverty, it was hard to know if he represented a real difference or just a slightly modified marketing campaign.
As we’re seeing now, white papers released in the middle of a campaign mean little when it comes to actual governance.
Sophisticated campaigns marketed the candidates as personalities and people became attached to them and felt like they knew them. Everyone who opposed them was the “enemy,” rhetoric was amped up and overheated, identity politics were exploited by both sides as strategic campaign elements and suddenly the blogosphere was a giant pie fight.
We made the decision to stay true to our charter and didn’t take sides, pledging to support the candidate that emerged with the nomination. We believed that once the election was over and we could get back to discussing issues again and evaluating politicians on both sides of the aisle with the same yardstick, we’d be back in our element.
And that is largely what happened. Whereas most liberal blogs suffered a huge drop in traffic after the election, FDL didn’t (though I imagine this had more to do with the fact that we didn’t see the enormous rise that those engaged more actively in the primary debates did). But over the last six months, when the number of people engaged in online politics on the left have dropped and most of the big blogs have either seen traffic flatline or decrease year-over-year, ours is up by 40%.
Part of the increased traffic is due to the fact that health care is on the front burner, and we’ve been doing a lot of work on that topic. But we’re also seeing increased audience engagement. The number of reader diaries at the Seminal have doubled of late, and they cover a variety of subjects. Commenting has tripled and quadrupled, and registrations have been up as much as 700% over our regular rate on any given day.
Much of the contention within the liberal blogosphere of late, is the inevitable fallout of the primary battles. Many people currently engaged in the online debate formed their view of politics in that crucible, and don’t know how to interpret anything outside of it. Thus all criticism of the candidate-become-President, when viewed through that prism, is dismissed as the work of “Hillary shills” (the worst thing you could call someone back then), or “helping the Republicans” (reflecting the second though certainly less emotional stage of the campaign).
It’s a “team sports” analysis of politics, where “our side” is good and “their side” is bad. But it’s an inadequate model with which to assess actual governance. The party that is out of power can say all the wonderful things it wants, and can cast high-minded symbolic votes knowing that they will never have any impact. But the party in power is by definition the party in power, and the only one that is capable of taking action.
Spending your time trying to influence those who don’t have the power to do anything just isn’t an effective way to advocate for change. You have to motivate those who actually do have power to use it.
The crisis in the blogosphere is happening, I believe, because too many gave themselves over to party and personalities that never had any hope of living up to the expectations people placed in them. If anyone thought the Democrats were sincere when they stormed around claiming moral superiority after passing Medicare prescription drug price negotiation in 2003, or that Obama would act on his campaign promise to do just that, they should be disabused of that notion now.
Some won’t care. They’ll always accept the logic that “the Republicans are worse,” and believe that this justifies any moral compromise it takes for the Democrats to stay in power. The Republicans certainly are worse — as Robert Cruickshank noted, their ability to retain power over the past 30 years has been the result of the deal they made with the corporate world to further its influence — but the Democrats are trying to strike that same deal. And for those who operate from an issue-based perspective, whose reason for opposing the Republicans was because of that deal, that is going to be much more problematic.
But as the liberal blogosphere shakes off the hangover of the election in the wake of the reality that the health care bill presents both about President Obama and the Democratic party, they’re going to be uncomfortable with the rationalizations offered up by those who continue to interpret events polemically from within it.
As Avedon says:
Obama and the Democratic leadership are pushing right-wing corporate policies. That’s not a theory. And it’s not about “ideology” in the sense these comfortable gentlemen are speaking when they explain that we have to be “pragmatic” and “realistic”. It’s about hungry bellies and broken limbs that might be yours and your children’s and siblings’ and friends’ in the very near future. This isn’t abstract; it’s about the simple, obvious fact that which way the money goes determines how our lives go. Our lives. We don’t actually care about which politician you happened to fall in love with.
We’re witnessing a deeply emotional response to that kind of critique among those who support party or a personality first. And the rationalizations necessary to justify that allegiance in the wake of the extreme corporatist assault on government represented by the health care bill sounds an odd note in the liberal blogosphere, which came of age developing an internal narrative in direct opposition to that (as Armando points out).
While I’m delighted with the new visitors and the vibrant conversation that’s happening at FDL, we’re not doing anything different than we’ve always done. As people emerge from the primary haze, they’re finding we’re right where we’ve always been – fighting for a progressive agenda regardless of who is in power.



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This is perfectly exemplified by all the discussions across the blogosphere on various websites. Dailykos, DemocraticUnderground.com, OpenLeft, MyDD, and HuffingtonPost where you’ll see that split in the base, one focused on personalities and defending the construct built up around that personality, and one focused on issues and as a result of that focus, the construct is taken away from the personality. You’ve got your finger on the pulse of this split here.
It’s funny (not ha ha funny) how FDL’s support of items explicitly in the DNC 2008 platform and in Obama’s campaign promises make you and issue oriented bloggers bad Democrats.
The only disagreement with your approach is there does need to be a time to rally around the team and the personalities that are on a ballot. The Republicans are destructive to the country’s best interests, and no one is helped by their return to power.
What would help is letting “targeted apathy” defeat entrenched Blue Dogs so that progressives can take their committee seats and seniority without the party losing power — like Colin Peterson.
This is an excellent post, thanks Jane. I’ve been thinking about this over the past few days and in particular this morning when one of the regulars at EW’s place talked about having faith in certain politicians. I’m not entirely sure that this is the result of the primary pie fights. Our culture is fixated on personalities, whether in entertainment, sports, politics, etc.
I wonder if people too readily put their faith in people because they do not wish to take the time and effort to properly educate themselves on whatever topic is at hand. I wonder whether it may also be a reflection of simply feeling uncomfortable with math and legislative language, so people turn to pundits and pundits make their living by keeping the pie fights going.
As one of your issue-oriented denizens, I am often surprised to read of faith-based support of particular politicians coming from the progressive camp. Isn’t that exactly the sort of thing we spent the last several years deriding the Republicans for?
If we cannot do a better job of motivating the voting public to look not at the man standing behind the curtain (or more accurately in front of the camera), but at the levers they are actually pulling, then we will have a hard time ridding ourselves of our corrupt incumbents. Individuals will find a way to support “their” pol and make excuses for them no matter what they do.
How do we break through that?
Oh, my head! I need some headache pills and…
Do you have something for a broken heart? I feel for that whole `Change You Can Believe In` routine and now I feel like I had to pull a harpoon out of my own chest.
~Ruff
The sad thing is that even those people who aren’t that invested in personalities and their associated cults (one of the ironies of being labeled as “PUMAs” or “Hillary shills” is that the people who really are and have remained hardcore Hillary backers see us as Obama worshipers and don’t want to acknowledge just how similar our president and his secretary of state are in terms of policy) are likely to have fallen for the “We must do it now or we’ll never have this chance again — and besides we can always fix it later” myth (whose companion myth is the “not having an HCR bill killed us in 1994″ myth; actually, Rahm’s demoralizing the base with his NAFTA treachery is a more likely culprit, but I digress).
This is, of course, self-contradictory on its face. If, as posited, we’re never going to have a better time to pass health care reform, the chances that we’d actually improve on the bill later on are less than the chances that it’d be made worse. Look at how Roe v. Wade has been attacked and undermined, legislatively and otherwise, over the decades (most recently with the Nelson and/or Stupak atrocities tacked onto the Senate and House HCR bills) to get a feel for what I mean.
In addition, this myth relies on the assumption that sixty votes are always needed for the Dems to do anything (and therefore we must let Mary Landrieu, Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln dictate some very corporate-friendly terms), when Jon Walker has shown, again and again, that this is just not so.
Exactly. Personalization often leads to demonization, first generally of one’s actual foes, then of the people who merely aren’t following you in precise lockstep. The danger the personalizers risk is that in pushing an unrealistically-spotless image of a particular candidate, they are forcing themselves into a Manichaean corner where they feel they must either increasingly deny the human reality in order to uphold the saintly construct or do a 180 and start applying the demonization paint to the figure they no longer can honestly see as a saint, but have not yet figured out how to see as a human.
Terrific post. And you’re absolutely right about the intense emotions within the progressive movement. It’s better to yell at Republicans and the corporatist Democrats (and to back up those shouts with action) than to engage in internecine warfare with our fellow Progs. Thanks and here’s to a better decade.
For the online venues, it is. I’m seeing behaviors I thought had ended for the most part by November of last year suddenly manifest themselves once again. The partisan newbies who showed up in 2007 and 2008 and started pie fights in various blogs are now going after the people who aren’t emotionally wedded to the partisans’ favorite politicians.
Bingo
And Senator Sherrod Brown has come right out and said that they would not be where they are if it had not been for the pushing. Frightening to think that this legislation could have been worse. Difficult to imagine,
And we keep pushing. Let’s hold Harkin to that we will “revisit” the public option. NOW not later
What’s really galling to me is the smear being leveled at many of Obama’s critics that we’re nothing more than disgruntled Hillary supporters who want the guy to fail. Hell, I was on board with Obama from pretty much the point that he entered the race, voted for him 3 times – once in the primaries, once as a precinct-level delegate, and once in the general – canvassed for him, and donated money to his campaign even after losing my job. I guess to a certain extent this is karma paying me back for the hubris I showed during the primaries – I was pretty vociferous in defending Obama, and you could say that I definitely got wrapped up in the “team sports” mentality that was causing so much conflict between the Obama and Hillary camps. Same goes with the general election, though you could say that there was also a healthy measure of fear at what 4 more years of Republican rule might do to the country.
But in the end, I and others who made the same mistake were nonetheless politically mature enough to be able to recognize the importance of issues over personality and partisan considerations, once the elections were over. And this is where the conflict has arisen, because the Obama phenomenon has drawn in more than a few people with a “Tiger Beat” mentality about Obama and politics in general. I can’t speak for some of the other community blogs, but I know that DKos seems to have become overwhelmed with people who won’t tolerate even the slightest criticism of Obama or his policy priorities, and who will stop at nothing – including accusations of racism, comparing people to Trotskyites, etc. – to attack and discredit people with valid criticisms. (Like I need to tell you this, Jane!) There are still good, sane people posting over there who aren’t drinking the Koolaid, but they seem to get drowned out by the silly ones. FDL is an island of sanity in comparison.
What I meant was that this is a broadly cultural phenomenon and it has been with us for a long time. I think you see this kind of thing occur in lots of areas where there are fans of anyone (athletes, movie stars, musicians, business figures, politicians). Once a fan latches onto a particular personality (or set of personalities), they will go to enormous lengths to defend whatever they do.
On top of that, we have a long history within politics of party loyalty, no matter what.
I think both of those factors will make our personality-cult/party-loyalty driven political culture very resistant to change.
wow. this quote is one i’m going to save for potential future use.
Issues are hard.
Personalities are easy.
Besides, you can’t put a poster of an issue up in your locker.
jane,
i dont think you give yourself enough credit for all the development work you have done here; bringing in fresh and interesting writers, giving thinkers a home where their work can be viewed, technical excellence, user friendliness. this didnt just happen.
Picture that Teddy…
So true
Jane,
Every so often you write a great post like this one that helps put you and Firedoglake in a broader context and helps me to understand you better.
I know that my being a pain in your ass has been a recurring theme on a nearly weekly basis since I first came here a few months ago. Sorry. I only do it because I agree with you (most of the time), care about the issues, and want you to succeed in advocating for what’s right. Besides, maybe something I’ve said during one of my rants has helped a little.
This post also puts the problems of the liberal blogosphere into some perspective for me. As someone who hasn’t been around nearly as long, I really am still just learning the who’s who and how things work (and when they’re not working).
You wrote:
I did notice that you made a comment the other day to the effect that Obama was the most progressive candidate out there at the time. You were challenged on this assertion, but I didn’t see your answer (if you had time to answer).
I remember thinking that, while your assertion was correct, it was a statement of just how pathetic the political situation is.
Please do not ever stop working as hard as you do.
Jane..Glad that you have had foresight and stick to the issues.
Guess the days when democrats just made mistakes like continuing to fund the Iraq/Afghanistan war without a clear mission/cause are over. rahm declared war on progressives a looong time ago.
Let’s take the issues not personalities another step. It is the government that is inherantly skewed.Not so much who holds the office of president…. Needing huge campaign funds which can cover for bribery way too easily.
In my state of ME, we are currently having the bribery issue come to light. Powerful developers gave LURC , the land use regulatory commission 1.7 million dollars. The AG is not interested in pursuing the case. Maine Public Broadcasting uncovered the story. All the newspapers refuse to cover it.The director of LURC stated the fees were necesary because there is not enough staff. Sound familiar.
There should have been a tip off when young environmentalists protested at a hearing re. the land to be developed.. A nice looking man removed them. With a gun prominently on his side.
Sorry to get off topic, but I’ll bet every state has similiar stories of how corporations are gaining more and more control. Using tactics that would have been unheard of 10 years ago.Nice looking man and police refused to answer the question,”Why are you arresting me?”
Oh boy, here we go.
I have to say that I have always enjoyed the comment threads the most. And lately there are new voices joined our longtimers and really good conversations are forming.
An FDL comment thread is like an instantly available watercooler or cocktail party, peopled by really really smart conversationalists from all over the country (sometimes all over the world).
I admit I just don’t get the personality thing. Probably for the same reason that I don’t get the charisma thing. Any prez personality is fine with me as long as it doesn’t get in the way of being productive, in a progressive direction. I reserve the right to criticize personality when it gets in the way of business, however.
Congrats Jane for sticking to the issues.
I agree, the goal should be to remove blue dogs and new democrats where you can by primarying them with progressives. However once the primary fight is over all progressives should to close ranks since the adversary then becomes the repubs.
The only way to get candidates we can rally around is thru issues.
I second that emotion. The comments here are much more substantive and interesting to read.
The only “personality” I ever “fell in love with” was John Kennedy. Very special and just right for the time. He and his family brought a lightness to the country and people seemed really upbeat and happy. I suspect, however, that if he were president today that he would be considered fairly conservative. Robert would be Progressive.
Welcome to newbies of every stripe, and a special one to DKos crossovers. Hope you come to appreciate the conversation.
“It’s a “team sports” analysis of politics, where “our side” is good and “their side” is bad. But it’s an inadequate model with which to assess actual governance.”
Well said and excellent point made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZGRtUeYTU8
“Us, and them
And after all were only ordinary men.
Me, and you.
God only knows it’s noz what we would choose to do.
Forward he cried from the rear
And the front rank died.
And the general sat and the lines on the map
Moved from side to side.
Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who.
Up and down.
But in the end it’s only round and round.
Haven’t you heard it’s a battle of words
The poster bearer cried.
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There’s room for you inside.
I mean, they’re not gunna kill ya, so if you give em a quick short,
Sharp, shock, they wont do it again. dig it? I mean he get off
Lightly, cos I wouldve given him a thrashing – I only hit him once!
It was only a difference of opinion, but really…i mean good manners
Don’t cost nothing do they, eh?
Down and out
It can’t be helped but there’s a lot of it about.
With, without.
And who’ll deny it’s what the fightings all about?
Out of the way, it’s a busy day
Ive got things on my mind.
For the want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died. ”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xxgRUyzgs0
Yep. That’s what keeps me coming back day after day (more than I should really ; ) I learn a lot and improve my own arguments in the process. No finer community anywhere…
@Jane
Oh, BTW what’s your readership/membership count? I am sure nosey and would like to know. LMAO … just kidding, kinda making fun of that fellow who wanted salary information yesterday.
You are doing a good job. Issues are important.
Jane… I believe the reason your traffic is up is because you have not allowed FDL to be hijacked by professional sockpuppets … plus you do really great work, and are not afraid to speak truth to power and call out whichever minor king is buck naked…
Your passion is inspiring, and coupled with your acute intellect,finely tuned bullshit detector and knowledge of how to use all the new and old media tools makes you a formidable power to be reckoned with.
Rahm might be laughing at you now, but he probably does not not realize that you have jumped bigger sharks than His Arrogant Rahmness (the initials OS) and lived to tell the tale…
Happy New Year Jane… You are truly one of my heroes…
Very. Impressive. Post. Jane Hamsher.
Very impressive.
FDL is doing something different, and that’s the recognition that citizens in general, not just liberals, are disenfranchised. Jane recognized that gaining any control over the oligarchs, we have to reach out to conservatives and start a common ground approach to holding both the Dems and GOP to the basic premise that our elected officials work for citizens, not special interests. When they don’t, whether they’re in a red or blue district, their seat in in jeopardy, because a whole political spectrum of voters will vote against them and for a candidate that swears to do what’s best for their constituents and the country, not special interests. With a whole spectrum organization recruiting voters and energizing voters to support candidates that care for the constituent, eventually we may even get public financing for elections and really crimp special interests, not just in DC, but local and State as well. I wish!
Both Kennedys were pretty conservative in 1960. Robert certainly sounded progressive by 1968. I think the sentiments he expressed were heartfelt but of course we will never know for certain.
I have to admit to being disappointed in Democrats too. I honestly believed they would get healthcare reform done, because to do otherwise is economic, even national, suicide.
I mean, if one is a rational actor, using ‘enlightened self-interest’, then one would surely rather save the entire economy, even at the cost of devastating a few, very large campaign donors like Aetna, Cigna, etc, than let everything fall apart for a few short term bribes, err, sorry, ‘campaign contributions’ now.
It just makes sense. There are more people, with vastly more money, who would benefit from true health care reform, than there are people who benefit from the status quo. I just assumed that sooner or later, the big manufacturers, unions, paper pushers and information dealers, software houses and widget-makers would band together and out-bribe the insurance lobby.
That hasn’t happened. As cynical as I am, I never imagined that so many people in the business community, as well as so many in power, would shoot themselves in the face this way. I still struggle to understand it. Most Dems aren’t Rapture-ready bible thumpers; they believe the world will still be here in 30 years, and ideally, they’d like to make a buck, retain office, get elected or appointed to something better, in that time. Most businesses would like to survive as well. Yet we just don’t see people acting in their own self-interest, and it’s got me utterly puzzled.
FDL is the very best for information. Makes me feel as if I’m breathing down the necks of pols in DC. I imagine they feel that, too.
Thanx in part to living back in the days when there really were liberal Republicans, I do not give a damn about party label or even personality all that much, what I care about is principles & priorities, namely rights of citizens are to be preferred over whatever rights big corporations may have. Any shift in my voting patterns over time towards Dems is only because there are no longer any moderates on the R side, let alone liberals. During the bloody 2008 primary I was initially an Edwards supporter. To me it appeared as if Mr. Obama and Ms. Clinton would govern in the same center-right triangulation mode as Mr. Clinton did, the only reason I favoured Mr. Obama is that the opposition research on Ms. Clinton was already done. Whoever won, however, I was voting for the Dem (& yes I was reading FDL daily then…)
Yes I am very disappointed in President Obamas performance in many areas so far (although I noticed for example the FDA is starting to inspect food once again) but I am also pragmatic, my vote for Anderson back in 1980 helped elect Reagan. What else can we do, besides support primary challenges to blue dogs & demublicans? (Two weeks ago I would have said if McCain had one, we would be in yet another war then suddenly Yemen & Somalia reared their ugly heads…) The DCCC/DSCC/DLC can all go straight to hell & I do not give a damn for Democrats like Stupak, Baucus, Feinstein, Nelson, et al.
Dailykos – I Never Registered at that Site
DemocraticUnderground – I Never Registered at that Site
OpenLeft – I Never Registered at that Site
MyDD – I Never Registered at that Site
HuffingtonPost – I Never Registered at that Site
The only sites I ever registerd at have been here at FireDogLake, Black Agenda Report and antiwar.com I am also registeed at commondreams and crooksandliars…..CrooksandLiars is a mixed bag but they too are Obama gatekeepers. AmericaBlog—-I stopped going there after realizing they were also Obama/Democratic Party gatekeepers as well.
I have never cared or trusted Arianna Huffington to begin with. On the other hand, I like Jane’s style, presentation and candor about the issues.
What separates Jane’s analysis from all the others is that she refuses to be a Gatekeeper for Obama or the Democratic Party establishment as its assortment of devoted hacks and sycophants seemed to do without fail. You all know the usual suspects.
Anyway, I will post something interesting in aq few minutes.
Obama is like everyone else. His generals tell him to raise the stakes in Afghanistan and he does. He thinks that’s what a majority of Americans want. We think it’s something a majority of Americans don’t want. If things go bad, he blames the generals, faulty intelligence, or both. Leaders don’t staff out big decisions. That’s what makes them leaders. If they have no convictions, one road is good as another.
There is, however, a desire to avoid responsibility. That’s why you have someone like Jim Himes run as an anti-war candidate, and vote for every military appropriation that comes down the pike. That’s why you will be disappointed when candidates you work for, if elected, are not as advertised. That’s why working within the present two party system won’t work. The net must be cast much wider and we. all of us, must be ready to decide issues, not just comment on them.
What exactly is this “crisis”, drop in participation?
Well said.
Anyone (who was looking) could see that Obama was not all that his campaign claimed he was – politicians rarely, if ever, are. I expected some corporate-friendly policies. The real disappointment is his seamless continuation of so many of the Bush administration hallmarks – secrecy, human rights violations (e.g., indefinite detention), reality denial (“never ran on the public option”). We voted for something else.
Very well said. This is the one sight that really hasn’t changed except by expansion. There is no better investigative work done, even with budgets far higher!
Reason may always prevail. It also makes for excellent conversation, and action.
That reminds me of a line from Ghostbusters when Bill Muray(SP) said “you’re a politican, aren’t you supposed to lie to me and kiss my ass”. There were a couple of Blue America sponsered candidates that once elected proceeded to dissapoint in a najor way.
The Senate passed its health care bill “by standing up to the special interests who prevented reform for decades and who are furiously lobbying against it now” — Barack Obama, December 21, 2009.
Let’s be very mindful of who’s fighting for us! /s
Read the “Dark Side of Camelot” by Seymour Hirsch
Not a word about the Gaza Freedom March at Crooks and Liars, Huff Po (mentioned the other day), not at Raw story. All of these sites will cover the Iranian protesters until kingdom come. Telling
I took it as a reference to the rift between those who support the Senate HCR bill and those who want to defeat it.
I don’t disagree with that. People get wrapped up in elections and that’s a good thing — I didn’t mean to challenge that.
I do however think that some degree of leadership and sobriety in the midst of that enthusiasm can be exerted to make the inevitable transition more smooth when it actually happens. Because it’s always going to be uncomfortable when candidates stop campaigning and start legislating, as those who have been down that road before well know.
Jane,
Thank you for this eloquent enunciation of what FDL is about. The ideas, and their consequences on real people. The aspect of this blog I resonate most with is our ability to on whole keep that focus and avoid the pitfalls of personality cults.
Keep reminding us.
got it
You’re very right, and that is what I was touching on in the first couple of paragraphs — these people have been (and continue to be) “marketed.” It’s the way the public knows how to digest celebrities, and it has a price.
After having been banned for the umpteenth time from obscure politcal forums, I finally threw in the towel and started getting involved in threads on FDL. I’ve been a long time member of FDL, but usually skipped the discussions because I felt more productive having a dialogue with conservatives. I’m tired of wrangling with tea baggers, however, and I don’t think they are really relevant to our current politics. Indeed, I think the area progressives need to address at present is within the Democratic Party and the progressive movement. Left wingers need to sort their politics out, particularly with regard to HCR legislation. Anyway, I just thought I’d explain how I’ve personally ended up contributing to FDL threads on a more regular basis recently.
Yes, indeed there were. While mightily disappointed in them, I don’t feel that bad about having supported them. They are just failed experiments, and if you try new stuff, you’ll have failures along with the successes.
Besides, Himes has a better personality than Shays. *g*
I had a woman call up and scream at me when I was on CSPAN the other day for all the horrible things Markos and I had done to Hillary Clinton during the primaries, telling me that I had destroyed the Democratic party.
And I’m like, seriously? I know some people you should meet, you guys would have an interesting fight.
You cann’t go wrong with Pink Floyd. But I think that Animals is a better choice in this case.
Thanks Jane.
I’ve always known, I was in this for the long haul.
No matter who’s in power .
What’s interesting here is that when other groups — and Obama himself — work with conservatives, be it for fair or foul ends, they are praised by many of the same people who, because of their putting personality or party over policy, see fit to demonize FDLers in general and Jane in particular.
Yea, try Little Feat
Well, there aren’t enough good things that can be said about the writers here. They are amazing and they are the heart and soul of the place. But they have clustered here, I would say, because of a commitment to issue-driven politics, and in many ways that was self-selecting.
Every once in a while some guy named Jon Walker who has 8 people a day reading his blog starts sending me his posts. We’re awfully lucky.
Saul Alinsky said that the organizer needed to have a “schizophrenic personality” when it came to politics; he or she needed to be able to channel enthusiasm in themselves and others, yet not be so blinded by it that they couldn’t stop and turn on a dime if events warranted it.
Amen to the Pink Floyd quote.
lol, I was like WTF? When I read the words I knew damned well what song it was but what I was seeing and hearing was NO WAY IN HELL PINK FLOYD…. but I had clicked the link at the bottom.
Found the right one up top, cranked these serious surround sound speakers up to full bore, and felt like I was a young man again remembering that song. If only for 8 minutes. *g*
Wonderful post, Jane. Couldn’t agree more. It’s unfortunate that we had to go where we’ve been, to get to where we’re going, but that’s also the nature of developmental arcs.
On a side note, as an infrequent commenter, but daily reader, the development of this site over the past year has truly been something to behold. I couldn’t imagine that FDL would be more essential than it had been, but it is all of that, and so much more now. Kudos to you all.
Yup. Generating enthusiasm is much easier if you can personalize/demonize the issue.
One of the things that makes FDL great is that it’s anti-partisan, realizing that the meaningless, vitriolic tit for tat that passes for political discourse means absolutely nothing if there are no substantive issues behind the fight.
With Democrats and Republicans as they are now, partisanship is about who is in power, not what is done with that power.
Good Afternoon Jane and Firedogs -
I’m still chewing on what constitutes a true progressive, and how do we keep them progressive once they’re in Congress
I’ve come away from this epic battle pretty damn sure lots of folks have parked themselves in the CPC as a matter of political expediency.
I’m not talking about any kind of litmus test – just need to find a more evolved way in dealing/working with them
think this is one of those times where if I knew the question, I’d know the answer
Yes afterall you,ve gotta have a real need.
Jane, nice post.
Unfortunately, the long-term trend in American politics has been the promotion of an individual brand over issues. This is most certainly a direct result of the fact that campaigns are now won or lost primarily on 30 second television adds that use the same marketing techniques to sell candidates as they do to sell soap. As this trend continues, it is getting easier and easier for politicians to pivot from “campaign” mode, where they can say anything that they think promotes their brand, to “elected” mode, where apparently becoming corrupt sell-outs to America’s wealthiest corporations is the main goal.
It is very apparent now that Barak Obama has no hesitation whatsoever in doing a 180 on almost any issue that he has campaigned on. Certainly he is not unique in this view among our politicians. Unless we find better ways to hold those people who we have helped elect accountable, the trend of say-anything to get elected candidates will most like continue and the battle over ideas and policies will become increasingly meaningless.
Thank you, bystander. It’s a community though, a wonderful group of people who shape what the blog does through their participation.
I allowed myself to scroll down the Crooks & Liars site marking the topics associated with the videos. (a fun exercise everyone should engage)
Assuming we agree that the Country’s troubles are residing within the Federal Reserve, Treasury and Wall Street plus (Frank, Dodd, etc) axis. The near total absence of any info on the financial sector was stunning.
The litany of bullshit topics and issues didn’t differ one bit today from the same period (or any) 1,2,3,4,5,6,etc years ago. Yet today we are experiencing 17% plus unemployment and the prospects are worsening, WTF?
The talking heads of both Parties are in lala land! When the
revolutionshit finally hits the fan, it will be spontaneous arising seemingly as though from nowhere.I guess it becomes our job to push him into a 360, then.
It seems like the flood of recent screamers must have already felt they had some axe to grind. Jane cosigning a letter with Norquist simply provided them with an excuse for some unhinged venting.
I’m certain if we will merely promise to blindly support the Democratic Party and Dear Leader all will be forgiven.
I think about that every day. How do you hold them accountable without ripping into them headlong and making things worse.
Not an easy challenge.
One would think. But the party in Congress are in power only to the extent that they unify around particular legislation. And the party out of power is out of power only to the extent that they unify against particular legislation.
With this exception. The party in power controls the agenda and a substantial portion of the rules. And the failure is of Democrats to use this procedural power to do what they said they were going to do. Progressive in the House and the Senate seem to have thought about policy and not done their homework on procedure; they need schooling from Robert Byrd while he still around.
Harriett found your phone number?
Jane, thank goodness that guy named Jon kept sending you e-mails. He is a great writer with a real feel for the issues. He also is apparently tireless and probably never sleeps.
A 180. A 360 leaves him where he is.
Thank you Jane! FDL and its components are a ray of sunshine in a dark and gloomy sky! Your work is proof that one person can make (and always has made) a difference!
Sorry, but I get the impression they’ve got precedure down pat.
YMMV.
Well said, Jane.
Best example I know of to explain that is “Tastes Great/Less Filling” — take a piss-poor excuse for beer, generate a fake conflict about it, and pretend that its ‘fans’ argue about the best reason for liking it. Everyone buys the beer, but gets to be on one ‘team’ or the other. Perfect meta-marketing.
He’s already done the first 180. We need to get him to do a second one, for a total of 360, so he ends up where he campaigned on some issues.
Thank you Jane for that very informative commentary. FDL’s laserbeam like focus on the healthcare reform wets my appetite for what maybe in store when education reform makes its way back up the White House agenda.
Sitting by the Lake on a snowy afternoon reading the comments and, of course, Jane’s post I just had to say that FDL is, and has been, a treat. Thank you all, have a peaceful new year.
I actually did mention Harriet in response. But the caller was from Tennessee, and Harriet most certainly was not.
Aw damn, Teddy, now what to do with my Sarah Palin poster?
I’m a new comer to FDL and I love it. I hunted it down after seeing Jane Hamsher on Rachel Maddow and again on the Ed Show when she took down Laney Davis.
Truly progressive, truly thought provoking and truly important.
Happy New Year Jane and thanks for all you do.
And a wonderful new year to you, too.
Dogs and I always hang out because someone inevitably shoots off fireworks (or in Oregon, guns on the beach) and Lucy wigs out, so we like to be together in case that happens.
I have long felt that the whole “left-right” spectrum is a poor measure in politics. One person’s left is another person’s middle-of-the-road, so it’s inexact. I prefer a vertical scale, such as “Who benefits from this piece of legislation or that court decision or that war?” Americans have been trained to ignore economic issues because that’s considered “class war” but as we know in the U.S. class war only is recognized in one direction.
Having spent my working life active in organized labor I know that there are a lot of issues aren’t necessarily clear and those who I look to for leadership are not necessarily representing my best interests. My union has a profitable health plan and came out in support of Clinton. She and my national president were not cozying up and whispering sweet nothings about single-payer.
Since JFK’s death (that’s how far back my political memory goes) there has been a recognizable oscillation in American politics. The State grows stronger against individuals, weaker against corporations. The oscillation is in the function that each political party performs. When Republicans are in office there are great gains for corporations and the rich in tax cuts, and in legislation and policies which constrain the rights of the general population, whether in the fields of labor or individual rights. During Democratic administrations much of those Republican gains are consolidated. For example, there is very little movement to roll back the privacy concerns of FISA.
Right now the Democratic leadership is acting like a “good cop” in a “good cop/bad cop” routine with the American people. While I prefer “the easy way” over “the hard way” I don’t necessarily think that either cop is thinking in my best interests.
Welcome, we’re glad you took the time to register & jump in the comments!
You can let the lurkers know that the water’s warm, they might even like it.
Put it face-to-face with your Mitt Romney poster, and make them kiss?
I wholeheartedly agree with this. You know the tea party thing was a small movement that got co-opted by Republicans and lobbyist groups like FreedomWorks in order to I guess move it in a certain direction or just to make some political hay. Honestly I hate the signs and the rhetoric but there is a basic emotion that these people have, fear. I think part of them realizes the dismal failure of the Bush administration and they are essentially lashing out at anything establishment. Well that and some are just plain racist and are off their nut. With that said, both left and right know that America is slipping and pretty soon the middle class will be as extinct as the polar bear. Now’s the time to put real pressure for real reforms. Things like auditing the Fed are good start, and who knows one might be able to pick off a few people disenfranchised by the GOP.
Things are up in the air. When you talk to a conservative that is leaning towards some kind of change guide them slowly and don’t get all huffy when they do something that upsets your sensibilities. You don’t know how many people I have converted on certain issues or even philosophies just by listening and moving the debate.
I think Phred was referring to me…
I understand her points but it paints me as “shallow”.
I study the issues pretty well, and form my own opinions without the help
of personalties….
I was for National Health Care, a robust Public Plan, and was disappointed
when it failed.
I just don’t think 60 Democratic Senators are all wet.
I made a value judgment that the Current law is better than the “status quo”
We are experiencing a “middle life crisis”.
The rancor and infighting is a real turn off for me, and I have stayed
away…
We all bring good things to the party.
Excellent analysis, Jane.
Especially this:
Typical CSPAN callers comprise such an esoteric group… low information voters who watch CSPAN.
The reason for increased traffic to FDL is very simple. Objectivity, devotion to exposing the faces behind the mask of spineless democrats who should have been Republicans to begin with (Nelson, Harry Reid, Schumer, Baucus to name a few), and of course well informed writers without any hidden agenda. I have been following FDL from the days of Scooter Libby trial. It was so interesting and informative to read Jane’s analysis.
FDL is good for analysis as well as information.
I’m a bit bothered by Barbara’s post today. Scorched Earth doesn’t describe recent work here and I’ve commented there.
I’ve seen a lot of comments that the 1994 Republican gains were a reaction on the left to NAFTA. I’ve got a different perspective – the Assault Weapons ban energized gun rights activists throughout the spectrum and was blamed on the Democratic majority in Congress. This is a tar baby we need to get out of our hands at some point – how to deal with gun violence in a way that doesn’t mobilize the vast majority of gun owners that are not criminals to oppose us.
I manage to get in a few hours now and then. It is Jane that never sleeps.
I believe it’s the fact that the members here are not led around from the nose by the authors of the blog
the commenters here have quite a bit to offer and once you get involved in the conversation you become addicted to the site
I come here to see what the members write just as much as I come to read the front page
to all the authors, members and commentors, have a healthy and happy next year!
It’s about issues for some of us because that is reality. It is easy for the assholes in washington to sell out because they will never become vicitims of their legislation as so many millions of us will. I don’t give a rats ass who is in the white house or congress if they are trying to enact laws that will harm my family and the people I love, I am going to fight like hell to put a stop to it. What party they hail from and who they are doesn’t matter one iota.
David Gilmour?
I just translated the works of Marcy Wheeler into English.
(old joke w/nod to Simon Gray)
Ever since Kevin Drum of the Washington Monthly slammed Jane, I have been doing some of my own data gathering about that outfit. Now, I am not going to say that Washington Monthly has never done fine work. Some of their writers are top shelf, like Jerry Landay and Joshua Green……
I did notice, however, after collecting and perusing over 100 articles that the Washington Monthly basically peddles the neoliberal economic agenda of the Democratic Leadership Council. It also makes convenient excuses for the Democratic Party as well.
One other fact I found, well two facts I came across when perusing the articles at Washington Monthly—-that Grover Norquist wrote an article for the Washington Monthly back in 2004….Frankly, I see nothing wrong with that at all. But, in his criticism of Jane, did Kevin Drum disclose on his blog that the “awful” and “enemy” Grover Norquist had written an article for the Washington Monthly?
Here is the article that Grover Norquist wrote for the Washington Monthly:
The Washington Monthly
September 2004
The Democratic Party is Toast
By Grover Norquist
Excerpt from the article by Norquist which is kind of interesting since Dean “lost” with the scream…..
“….Every ambitious Democrat hopes Kerry-Edwards fails, so that the presidency will open for her (or him) in 2008 rather than in 2012, 2016, or 2020. A Bush-Cheney win will lead to Republican governors from Colorado, Mississippi, Florida, Texas, Massachusetts, Minnesota, and New York to compete to be the most Reaganite governor–a positive result no matter who wins. And a Bush-Cheney win in 2004 will leave Terry McAuliffe and Bill and Hillary in complete and unchallenged control of the Democratic Party at least through 2008. This is good for the Republicans, if not the republic….”
The threads are as illuminating and important as the front page, which is great, of course.
CSpan…wouldn’t watch it if I did have a TV. A long time ago, it seemed all the interesting callers were cut off mid sentence.
The liberals were under represented ..kinda’ like the Sun. morning TV shows. The democrats who were allowed on were the same old ones week after week. Saying the same ‘ol thing.
Boring is not something I plan to do.
Jane, I can’t tell you how I felt, when I found FDL . I couldn’t believe there was such a large group of people, that thought the way I did.
I’m just glad there are sites like FDL where I can exchange ideas with like minded people.
We may not always agree , but we have great debates on our threads.
Newt also had contract with America he whipped out of his back pocket at the last minute, which had been incubated and workshopped at the state level for years. Of course it was all bullshit, but it was pretty slick bullshit.
Like fine wine, FDL has only gotten better over time. Kudos, Jane, for producing an exemplary blog. I find FDL an invaluable resource for staying abreast of important issues because, in the end, those are what matter most. People tilt this way or that, but the issues are always the same. And FDL, an island of reason separating two oceans of conformity (the Democratic way vs. the Republican way) consistently adheres to the right way.
Regarding “remain hardcore Hillary backers”, baloney part I. But your second point is also baloney, since the main reason (at Corrente anyway) that people were (primarily) for Clinton is that the differences were seen and described as marginal but not insignificant, and the main difference was their approach to governing and specifically health care. In other words, issues! Now, you may find some people there who are bummed Obama won and Clinton lost (I would argue you would find alot of people like that HERE), my opinion is that time is over. We have the President we have, maybe not the president we would like to have, or would have liked to have had in a more perfect world.
Now, (again, at Corrente at least) the main focus is on ISSUES. But ISSUES first, the strategery is baloney (and proven by the current outcome of that focus). Hopefully FDL has decided to advocate for ISSUES over strategery, which quite honestly has been the focus here. That would be awesome and applauded.
I’m really impressed with (and inspired by) the quality of the debates on the threads these days.
The ones I can follow, anyway. Huge segment of our commenters are waaaay smarter than me, and I hope that will always be the case.
And the newbies should know that we are not always serious. Some of the best laughs I’ve ever had came from right here.
Absolutely. NAFTA may well have been the straw that broke the camels back as that was when a number of “the left” gave up. The combination of a highly energized right wing base and the disillusioned left resulted in big gains for them that cared to vote.. damnit.
Oh, and you know what an especially happy new year to CHS we miss you.
For issues about war and peace, the various sites I suggest are:
1. http://www.antiwar.com ******
2. http://www.counterpunch.org ******
3, http://www.blackagenareport.com ******
4. http://www.consortiumnews.com ******
5. http://www.fpif.org ******
6. http://ipsnews.net ******
7. http://electronicintifada.net/ ******
8. http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/ ******
9. http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com ******
10. http://www.palestinechronicle.com/ ******
11. http://www.newstatesman.com/ ******
12. http://www.atimes.com/
13. http://www.haaretz.com/ ******
14. http://www.chomsky.info/ ******
15. http://conflictsforum.org/ ******
True dat.
NAFTA demoralized part of the liberal/progressive voters. Assault weapons ban mobilized some to vote against Democrats (and had a lot to do with the creation of Blue Dogs). Contract with America mobilized some of the wingnuts.
The idea that Hillary would’ve done anything different about health care or anything else is pretty phantasmagorical I believe, but since we don’t know for sure people are free to make their own assumptions.
It was assumed that Rahm would be key in the administration regardless of who won, and the “strike a deal with PhRMA” logic was generated by veterans of the Clinton White House in response to their 1994 health care experience. It’s at the heart of Bill Clinton’s “let’s find a few things we can agree on and pass that, and not worry about this divisive stuff” exhortations in the past few months.
“Shanking off the hangover of the primary” cuts both ways, and I don’t think one side is going to find that any easier than the other.
Thank you so much, Jane. This is exactly what I see too. You just say it so much better, which is why I mostly lurk.
Jane,
Given that your position is that we advocate for goals that benefit our lives and not to who in government is willing to take on our causes, then I see a bit of a misdirection in your emphasis on how to best achieve that.
I would argue that we make a fundamental mistake by ceding power to those in government, whether they are in the majority or not. The idea of relinquishing our own ability to dictate the way we organize our lives is wrong not just in theory but is abundantly made clear everywhere we turn. The belief that we can turn to government and plead our case is a fundamental mistake. We should instead take matters into our own hands and exercise the popular power we possess and should never reliquish.
I believe we should work to divest government of power and look for ways of imposing our will as to which matters they consider and what outcomes we expect. There is ample consensus among the public on most issues, that has never been the question. The problem lays with letting that consensus dissipate and languish in our government.
I think we should look to initiatives we can begin to undertake to return power to ourselves. Such as ballot initiatives for recall of elected officials, boycotting of large financial institutions, legal appeals to outlaw mandates and non-compliance with onerous provisons. I feel that such a search for public action is a better way to proceed when faced with a government determined to act against our interests.
I struggle to understand it, too. I can’t believe what I’m witnessing.
You must lurk less! Me talking to myself is a pretty boring spectacle.
We need to demand all candidates submit themselves to lie detector questioning… then demand that they resign when they break pledges. Call it the pathological liar filter. Want to run as a democrat? Fine submit to the lie detector first. Dennis Kucinich would have no problem answering honestly… Barack Obaloney??? I seriously doubt he would.
Progressives can discuss the crooks and the liars in the Democratic Party until they are blue in the face—but not until they have sucessfully linked with other progressives in organizing massive marches on the Capitol Building and the White House in Washington will we see the sort of organic, grassroots political pressure needed to create real systemic change.
As Phred note above:
That’s the prize. There are millions upon millions of Main Streeters out there who are duped into joining the reactionaries. They are told that Wall Street and the crony capitalists in Congress aren’t the problem. No, the problem is them—the blacks and the gays and the feminists and the illegal immigrants and the socialists and all the rest of the terrorist loving traitors who are destroying America. Their outrage is aimed at taking the country back from the “liberals”!!!
They are largely blind to Wall Street agenda.
How do we create a mass movement again in America? How do we replicate what Dean and Obama were able to accomplish in motivating and rallying hundreds and hundreds of thousands of men and women into becoming politically active for change? But how do we channel this spontaneous organization into finding and supporting candidates that will oust the DLC Bilderberger Democrats from power? How do we keep them, in other words, from being coopted into a DNC that is merely an appendage of the Rahm Emanuels who run the Democratic Party?
I’ve noticed the resurrection of the Beyond Left and Right motive over at HuffPo, more recently. This was once a theme among conservative thinkers with right libertarian tendencies. It never occurred to me that FDL was of this ilk, but I can see that now.
Jane, what do you see as our goals for 2010? Getting rid of Blue Dogs?
Well, as one of those law abiding gun owners, and have been my whole life, the only answer is probably, unfortunately, learning to accept gun violence.
I just don’t see any other way to neutralize the issue, other than to say, OK, no more gun laws, we’ll stay where we’re at. Otherwise, no matter how well intentioned, well constructed, or well marketed any new restrictions are on purchasing and owning a gun, the right will always turn it into “Grab your holsters boys, those libruls are coming after yurrin guns agin!” And they will always hit a nerve. Always.
I’ve hunted with some pretty reasonable people over my lifetime. Folks that understand what struggling with health care costs is like, and folks that would likely in many cases support even something as drastic as Single Payer (Gasp!), but these same folks, every damned time an election was up where the word “guns” had appeared in the set of issues anywhere, every damned time would be “I’m voting fer _________, cause he ain’t takin my guns away.”
Funny thing is, I don’t think I’ve ever, in my life, ever heard a prominent national Democrat ever call for taking everyone’s guns away. Could be I missed it, but I know I didn’t miss it in the particular elections that we’d be discussing while hunting.
I don’t see another way. It seems to accept gun violence, or accept a riled up, ready to go, NRA vote. One or teh other.
That is the beauty of FDL, Jane. So many here are so much smarter, and gracious enough to help some of us understand better. Even the ones I disagree with, i find myself learning from. Thanks goes out to you Jane and Marci and all of you.
Yep, but it isn’t just you that I was referring to and I was trying to be tactful (probably unsuccessfully, I always enjoy your comments, even if I don’t always agree with them, and I was trying not to be insulting — at least in this case : ) I just don’t understand an argument built along the lines of 60 Senators can’t be wrong, when there is ample evidence to the contrary. If you think the Senate HCR bill is a sound one, then I would be more convinced if you made an argument on that basis. Why do you see this as a good bill? What are the specific pieces that have convinced you to support it? That is a better way to make your case, I think.
I think your point is well taken. Some of those things are appropriate to a national blog and some are not.
We’re hoping to be able to facilitate organizing on the state level with some of the changes we’re making, so the scope of what we’ll be able to do may expand.
Great post, Jane!
I was so incredibly and stupifyingly unhappy with moveon.org when they decided to have an online primary, that I unsubscribed from ALL of their emails.
In the first place, if they wanted to do that, they should have had a vote first on whether or not even to endorse one of candidates via an online voting process. But… they did not.
So, they lost me, and who knows how many others besides.
For me, the primary process WAS the democratic process, and there was nothing to be gained by subverting it.
Many kudos to FDL for not taking that bait.
Ahhh, the good ol’ primary wars.
You know I almost was a super delegate; but then Barbie became available….
” “We must do it now or we’ll never have this chance again — and besides we can always fix it later” myth (whose companion myth is the “not having an HCR bill killed us in 1994″ myth; actually, Rahm’s demoralizing the base with his NAFTA treachery is a more likely culprit, but I digress)”
One doesn’t have to like one’s opponents but one should respect their accomplishments. 1994 was the year of the republicans “Contract with America”. One need not agree with any of it to recognize that it was a brilliantly conceived and executed marketing strategy, against which the democrats were unprepared and ineffective.
OT but this really sucks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8436780.stm
Is the Justice Dept. doing this on purpose? They seem to be doing this often. How many dead enders are there still?
Sorry for the OT.
Ooooooh. Good question.
IANAL, but unfortunately, this was probably always the way it was going to end.
Assholes.
Jane, excellent look at the political climate we find ourselves in today.
Madison ave. is trying to sell the Democratic Brand to the masses like JFK, MLK, and Bobby Kennedy would love this party. JFK, MLK, and Bobby Kennedy would hate the Dems of today and probably have them charge for treason.
Madison ave is also trying to sell the Republican Brand to the masses like this is the Party of Ronald Reagan, I seriously doubt Reagan could get elected as a Republican today.
Madison Ave. marketing people are trying to deceive the USA masses, and keep them from learning that the day of govt. by the people for the people is over.
The current USA corporate govt. will surely fail, because the actors in this crazy movie cannot act. Obama and the dems are never going to get an Oscar. Dems just look stupid when they try to do Corporate Govt..
What madison ave. does not understand is that a lot of Dems and Reps, loss a lot of blood and friends fighting wars to keep the USA govt. by the people for the people a reality.
Once the masses learn that their govt has been taken from them, their will be hell to pay.
I use to wonder why all of those conservatives loved the NRA, now I know why.
Good Work! Jane
Well, I think the Blue Dogs may be gotten rid of by forces that are beyond us. If Democratic turnout sucks in 2010, many freshmen and sophomores will be the first to go but their seats will go to Republicans. Those who have been in office for a while, like Gene Taylor, are probably quite safe.
But maybe we should have that conversation. I’ll put up a thread tomorrow. What do you think should be the focus of 2010?
Scarecrow is attempting to put together a memo on what kind of input would be needed to develop a progressive “Powell memo,” a set of policy recommendations to implement the structural changes needed for progressive reform to actually take root. It’s a tough challenge, but I think it’s what we need in order to get off defense and go on offense in a smart way.
I do not just want to be responsive to someone else’s agenda, so would be interested in hearing what the community thinks is important.
End the filibuster maybe?
Which would have done better is conjecture, agreed. The point is we know what we have, and it ain’t good.
But going forward? Wouldn’t it make sense to not marginalize people who were prematurely correct that the public option was FAIL? That Obama was already in the process of selling us out? That things like TARP, etc. were clear indications of the future Obama administration priorities? That they would have to be fought tooth and tong for even meager scraps? Personally, though I supported Clinton over Obama, I would have had no illusions that she was anything more than a politician and I would have treated her just like BTD advised. The only thing we can be almost positive of, is that had Clinton been elected, there wouldn’t have been any illusions on the left that she was anything other than a center-right politician. The pressure would have been applied from the get. With Obama, the hagiography was large enough to drive two financial bailouts, one Afghan war expansion, one Gitmo non-closure and a health insurance bailout/mandate through.
I betting a sizable chunk of the rise in traffic here is the great unspoken hoard of hard lefties like me that have gotten banned by DKos or Huffington Post through the last few years.
Markos Moulitsas and Arriana Huffington ban anyone hard left from their websites at the drop of a hat wholesale because they want to be corporate media TV stars. In order to be corporate media TV stars, one must appear to be reasonable people AS DEFINED by the corporate media.
I think someone need to take a hard look at the banning policies at places like DKos and the Huffington Post, and what effect they have on shifting the apparent viewpoint of an online community hard to the center.
YES!!!
It also has the affect (IMO), of making the more democratically represented House more relevent. The way things are now, the House is (practically speaking) irrelevant.
Yeah, or modify the filibuster so tht it must be done a-la-Mr.-Smith-goes-to-Washington which is the way most of the Public think it’s supposed to be.
Make the jackasses APPEAR to be the obstructionists they are.
Nice post.
As the election turned the race into a team sport, it bolstered a team spirit which helped the cheerleaders ignore the fact that their team sold them a bill of goods. Some of the more agitated visitors to FDL justify this by saying that the really big mistakes, if they were mistakes, that Obama made early on were inconsequential. All will be fine in the fullness of time. Good things come to those who wait.
For myself waiting until it was clear that Obama’s team meant to keep the previous Bush financial policies and that trillions would be siphoned off in a never-ending attempt to save Wall Street was as long as I needed. The military ramp ups, the whacking of constitutional rights and the health insurance corporatist wrangling are merely frosting on the cake. Of course, at this point I should note that I hate frosting and am not a big fan of cake.
As my irritation with the true believers increased I looked at some of sites of the kinds people that had little attraction when I still had hope that the new would be better than the old. What I found was a bunch of unusual thinkers and a few that weren’t really much different than me on some issues while being wildly different on some other issues.
The whole Democrat versus Republican team thing has become a major waste of time. Sure most of the Republicans in office are not firing on all cylinders but finding more than a handful of Democratic politicians that are not drinking form the same trough is not an easy task. As well, a lot of regular people that think of themselves as conservative are offended by the fraud and massive waste of taxpayer dollars we see in front of us and some even admit that Republicans are equally to blame. Most self-described conservatives want to see the middle-class prosper. There are disagreements on how to get there but the goals are not that far apart in many cases.
There are way too many people who claim the mantle of liberalism while preaching complete intolerance to differing points of view. Some are so busy building up the team that they don’t even worry about why real people can have differing viewpoints. Even MoveOn sends stuff out that tells me that only teabaggers are against Obama’s Wall Street bailouts or potentially wasteful spending. Which of course implies that they think anyone who disagrees with corporatist policies that are syphoning of our nations wealth must be an irrational, racist, neocon.
For myself I’m fairly new to FDL in the sense of actually joining in the responding side of things. Most of the other sites, that I used to read regularly now make me feel that I have to convert to the one true religion or face their united wrath.
As true team believers, Republican and Democrat, see their side loosing some of the PR battles they are probably not going to be more calm and rational. The beatings will probably continue until morale improves.
Hopefully the new year brings better times for everyone.
I am not a “progressive.”
I am anti-Military Empire and an avowed socialist…..I do not believe in going in search of monsters to destroy….
Part of the politcal ideology of the U.S.A. is its National Security State Ideology as the offical doctrine and every other issue takes a back seat…The liberals of the Democratic Party have all too often believed in the American Exceptionalism crapola of this National Security State which allows the thieves and criminals to carry on in their criminal ways out of habit and pathology.
I’m not entirely sure that this is the result of the primary pie fights. Our culture is fixated on personalities,
Yes, I’d say cause and effect are reversed. Our tendency to fixate on personality is the cause of the “pie fights”. My focus has always been on what politicians do, versus what they say. What they have done in the past tells me what they are probably willing to do in the future. Their words, however eloquent, do not provide any reliable indicator.
I lik the targetted apathy bufbplease answer this:
if seems to me that there are two parties here who should be especially interested in keeping the baddies out of power. Progressives and Obama. While it is important for us, shouldn’t it be atleast as important to O? What exacfly has he done to keep the progressives in the fold, just so we can keep the bad republicans out of power, aside from ignoring a d slowly and incrementally killing every one of our demands?
Pragmatic as he is, why is unable to see that he has to throw us a few bones?
Is if because he thnks he can fool us with a great speech, throw us an insignificant bone later, becUse he thnks we would forget about it by nov or because he simply doesn’t care?
None of the options remind me of candidate Obama
You should look at Siun’s thread from last night…
First ya gotta get rid of the deadwood and then start planting new seeds of talent….Get rid of the phonies and sellouts first, even if it means a Republican taking the seat….
The Democratic Party in its present form is useless and its desturction would be a public service. Then build it back up and put in their face at the same time….
These Dems are awful….Such weaklings….and believers in war and destruction abroad and ignoring the problems at home….
Regarding all in the blogosphere with the Booga-booga! Rahm Emmanuel! Booga-booga! Rahm is an attack dog, but who is holding his chain? Um, it’s the President, stupid. To say Obama is not in control of Emmanuel makes Obama out to be some kind of Chauncy Gardner-type. I would think it would be wiser (and certainly more respectful) to face the concept that Obama is president, and Emmanuel is doing his bidding.
Hey Wiz,
I’m just guessing here, but how many years ago did Kos ban you?
I didn’t make it past one Ohio thread in ’04. Called Kos a faith-based voter. Banned within 15 mins.
IANAL either and I agree that it looked like it probably was going to happen but I’m getting so tired of so many getting away with murder.
Assholes is correct — I wonder what Jeremy Scahill thinks about this one.
“How do we replicate what Dean and Obama were able to accomplish in motivating and rallying hundreds and hundreds of thousands of men and women into becoming politically active for change?”
There must be a lasting connection between words and deeds. The dissatisfaction with Obama is rooted in the disconnect between lofty rhetoric and decisive action. Leading is not just about winning, it is sometimes about doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do. A leader must have principles and must occasionaly draw a hard line in the sand and stand up for those values.
Why have the previously motivated become unmotivated and apathetic?
I suggest that it is because we have yet to see any “change we can believe in”.
Pardon the typing. Still havent mastered commenting from my iPhone :)
He posted above that he has never registered at DKos, I think.
I hear ya. I keep asking myself when are people going to wake up.
Not in my lifetime have I seen things so desperate for so many.
People are going to start asking the question St. Ronnie of Ray Guns gave us, “are you better off than you were 4 years ago”
There are alot of people that will vote for the man behind the curtain for sure but when people are hit in the pocket book by policy it tends to change minds. Wall St. might have recovered with the help of their corporate wellfare, but Main St. is in a world of hurt and I don’t see that getting any better any time soon. The jobs that left are NOT coming back. I don’t see anyone in this administration worried about it.
I don’t see Orahama getting a pass for the entire 4 years.
I think niåve to the that the PTB won’t infiltrate any organization intent on threatening the status quo be they MOVEON.org or FLD. Consequently “the movement”, progressive (alienates libertarian type) or save america coalition (big tent) must be organized around self-sustaining principles not groups. Again.. lie detectors would filter out all you are blackmail-able (a primary means of co-opting politicians so I hear)… It would also set in stone the candidates true beliefs and allegiances. Problem is the Tabula Rosa candidate.
Obama never committed… never said anything but vague platitudes while campaigning. He perfected the art of telling one group one thing and another group another (witness the SF “clinging to guns” debacle or the repeal FTA’ agreement). People projected onto him what ever they wanted to see. He called it campaigning… I call it lying. That kind of politician is crap. I want to filter out ALL LIARS. They are scum regardless which party they float to the top of. Democrats aren’t better than Republicans. Both have their share of pathological liars.
Yeah, I’m tired of it too. But especially in this case there did appear to be a “hole” (big enough to fit the Space Shuttle in) where what laws they were operating under was….. iffy.
But yeah, hole or no hole, they’re assholes. And they deserve to face justice for that they did.
Assholes.
I still have an original poster from the anti-nuclear power fight in OR in the late 70s. The words QUESTION (at top) AUTHORITY (at bottom) with a cooling tower and red slash circle (what is that thing called?) over it between them. That’s an issue poster if there ever was one. Wouldn’t fit in yer locker, though.
Huge segment of our commenters are waaaay smarter than me, and I hope that will always be the case.
Bah, nonsense. We know things you don’t. We’ve experienced things you haven’t. The reverse is also true. Truly successful groups learn from each other and avoid error by debating issues based on what can be shown to be real. Good leaders understand that. I think you’ve become one, just in the time I’ve been watching here.
Snipped Excerpts From Politics on the Couch: Splitting
Good stuff from Dr. Justin Frank, relevant to this discussion.
- Tom
I like your issues based approach. I am thinking that what the next step is is to have a Politican progressive rating system each year. Where Pols are rated by how they behave on progressive issues raise in Congress.
* For example a Pol gets one point for voting on a progressive bill (even a flawed one)
* Gets 10 points for adding amendments that passed which improves a bill and make it more progressive.
* Gets 5 points for proposal of an amending that fails but would have been an improvement (progressively speaking) if it had passed.
*Loses 10 points if proposes an anti-progressive bill or amendment that passes,
*Loses 5 points if that bill fails.
*Each Pol that votes for an anti-progressive bill loses 2 points.
At the end of the year the Pol with the most points is rated at 100% and everyone else is graded in relation to the 100% progressive.
Anyone that falls below a 80% grade is a target of opportunity for strong arming.
Anyone with less than 70% should be targeted for primarying.
This can be done by having a separate microsite in FDL that tracks specific votes of DEMs and Repubs and keep their voting records visible to the public. This will of course require a paid intern so that the work is done rigorously, but the FDL community can donate to make up the yearly budget called the PROGRESSIVE RATINGS PROFILE PROJECT (PRPP).
Just a random thought, especially if as you say one needs to put the ground work in place for things such as single payer.
I’m with you.
I should probably note that some of my perspective on the 1994 elections comes from being an independent candidate for state legislature that year. I was actively canvassing in Bloomington IN and heard from a lot of general election voters what mattered to them that year.
I think of it as the International “Not” Sign.
Dear Jane,
FDL being issue based is what i respect about FDL. Remember when 50 Million People called Congress concerning the do not call list? There were hearings within a week.
I caught the tail end of you on msnbc yesterday discussing something about rove. The Valerie Plame thing was treason, and failing to do anything made the Republicans look like blank. You on the other hand make your party something to be worthy of respect. can’t seem to find a video of your press conference yesterday, will FDL post one? I would like to see what you were talking about.
Lets see what transpires at the F&F Hearings. Any of us 50 million, could walk in to a position in Congress and do a better job, regardless of political ideology. All anyone running for office in Florida who wants to win has to say is NO more offshore drilling, and for that I voted for Obama, and could never have voted for McCain, and I told Him about it. All the oil boys have to do to keep destroying the oceans is to buy off a few politicians, the 50 million with the heart and soul to be stand up Citizens are the best chance any of us will ever have.
Sincerely,
A.J. Max Cherbonneaux
How about campaign finance reform? That was an important lesson I learned from Molly Ivin’s and Lou Dubose’s book, “Bushwacked.” Get the money out of the process and maybe we have a chance of getting better representation.
I’m not holding out much hope on this one.
Excellent post. The reason so few Americans vote is that they see no difference between the parties and the politicians. So I applaud the more issues-based (i.e. adult) approach to politics adopted by FDL; likewise Jane’s tactical alliance with Norquist. People want good governance regardless of who’s at the helm. Republicans aren’t the anti-Christ and Americans know it: they just want results.
lol, I LIKE THAT. Much better than the international Prohibited Sign.
I believe that what you are advocating has one logical end – anarchy!
Government has a role to play. Its role is to act as a countervailing force against those with concentrated power and would use that power to plunder society.
Further governments role is also steps in when there are market failures in the production of public goods. The USA is the only industrialized country that does not treat Health Care as a public good and cedes its production to the private market. As a result what we have is a classic case of market failure.
What we need is SMARTER government not NO government.
That’s my 2 cents.
Snipped Excerpts From Politics on the Couch: Splitting and Reparation — Part One
Snipped Excerpts From Politics on the Couch: Splitting and Reparation — Part Two
More good stuff from Dr. Frank. Happy New Year everyone!
- Tom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtGrp5MbzAI
Yes exactly… “contract (on) America” is exactly the kind of organizing principle that is needed. Simple… concrete. Why is it that all those who “get it” i.e the incredibly effective Frank Luntz’s work for the Republicans? I know … Twain said it best:
“I’m not a member of an organized political party… I’m a democrat”
Funny thing is, I don’t think I’ve ever, in my life, ever heard a prominent national Democrat ever call for taking everyone’s guns away.
Well, that’s because that’s part of the secret plan, you see.
I’ve debated with quite a few folks who have drank the NRA Koolaid over the years. That’s pretty much the bottom line. You might as well be arguing with a conspiracy theorist. There’s an “inevitable” slippery slope that starts with any reasonable control on gun ownership and leads right to despotism. I’m exaggerating, of course, but only slightly.
We have seen the Senate at its worst, can you imagine where Women’s rights would be, right now had the 109th. Senate destroyed the 60 Vote Threshold? What the Democrats should be discussing is after stabbing millions in the back over Health Care, how does lieberman rate as the great protector of homeland security?
After seeing the trainwreck, either by design or by dint of the flaws inherent in the system, that healthcare ‘reform’ has become, I keep thinking that the only thing that seems to make sense to me is to just go right for the heart of the beast, i.e. real campaign finance reform.
Talk about a massive populist issue to unite right and left — what’s more basic, honorable and American than fighting to preserve the essence of ‘one person, one vote’ and getting the corporations out of government? It seems to me that it would be something that could (and could only) happen at a grassroots level. The teabaggers are cowing the right into submission with absolute bullshit; I don’t see why it couldn’t work the very same way from the other side and make a hell of a lot more sense.
Maybe I ‘m wrong, but to me it’s clear, simple, and transcends party or ideological lines: who can really argue against ‘one person, one vote, period?’. Why not just go straight for the elephant in the room?
By the way: fantastic post today, Jane. I’m constantly in awe of your energy, passion and brains, and I share your goals. Thank you, keep fighting, and much happiness in the New Year.
The left right paradyme is a failure. This political duopoly of Coke vs. Pepsi, Dem vs. Republican is a joke and the joke has been on we the people for to long.
Lets get real, the main cause of Americas problems are the central bankers and Wall street. They have bankrupt our country, bribed our politicians, destroyed the value of our dollar, outsourced our jobs, closed down our factories, controll our main stream media and promote and finance wars.
There are only three statesmen that I currently trust and that is Dennis Kucinich, Ron Paul and the former representative from Ohio Jim Traficant.
These three men have the guts to stand up against the true evil in America and that is the Federal Reserve Banking system. Since its creation in 1913, the Federal Reserve banks have never been audited. THE FED is a privately owned central bank that supplies our US Treasury with money. This money is created out of nothing and the bankers charge our US Treasury the interest and the principle for each dollar they loan our Treasury.
The wealthiest corporation in the world is not Wal Mart or Microsoft or Exxon Mobil, it is the Federal Reserve Banks. The wealthiest men in the world are the principle owners of the Federal Reserve banks. Think about this, if you could create money out of nothing and loan it with interest to the US Treasury how wealthy you could be. Plus you are guarantied to collect your loans by having your own collection agancy.
The IRS was also created in 1913. The IRS is the bankers collection agency which has the power to tax your income for the bankers profits. How does it feel to be working for the bankers as tax slaves as they make trillions of dollars?
The trillion dollar question is why we the people allow our US Treasury to borrow from THE FED bankers? Our Constitution allows the US Treasury to create its own money and eliminate the fraud by backing each dollar with a weight measure of gold or silver.
Currently our Federal Government owes THE FED bankers over 12 trillion dollars. Lets declare the year 2010 the year that we the people and our Federal Government declare our independence from the Federal Reserve bankers. Lets get started and demand that our senators and representatives draw up legislation to eliminate the Federal Reserve banks, cancel the debt and nationalize the US Treasury and back up every dollar with gold and silver.
This is the only way that our nation will ever have sustained prosperity without business cycles that bring inflation, deflation, depression, recession, booms and busts which are created by the shadow government which are THE FED bankers.
YouTube of Jane on with David Shuster to discuss Rove’s divorce and marriage equality here.
maybe its time to really walk away permanently from the whole two-party paradigm.
If people are still rehashing the old Hillary vs. Obama conflicts, they’re REALLY wasting their time. Many of us supported Obama because we expected Hillary to walk the same corporate path that Bill Clinton had trodden and that she had embraced as a Senator. Evidently, the joke was on us. It looks like we got the Clinton Playbook and all of the old cronies ANYWAY, along with the very corporatist agenda we had hoped to avoid.
People suggesting that we would somehow be better off with President Hillary are not paying attention; the Obama team is comprised primarily of the same Clintonistas who would have inhabited a Hillary White House, and the resulting policies would have been nearly identical. Those of us on the left knew we would have been dissatisfied with Hillary and were “HOPE”-ing for better.
I personally decided to vote for Obama over Hillary as a result of their divergence during the campaign on the issue of personal mandates with regard to health care reform. Empty campaign rhetoric, anyone? I feel cheated. But it doesn’t make me wish I could go back and change my vote, because we’re being forced to accept what Hillary had been pushing for anyway.
So today, many of us find ourselves standing apart from both the Hillary AND Obama camps, assailed by party sycophants who seek to cajole, belittle, or browbeat us into submission or at least silence over their big giveaway to AHIP & PhRMA. Here’s someone today propagandizing in the Huffington Post:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ariel-gonzalez/eyes-off-the-prize-libera_b_407985.html
This fellow characterizes those of us opposed to the Senate health care bill as being “…as bad as teabaggers, with their chronic dissatisfaction, ideological disdain for compromise, and limited understanding of historical precedent…”
That is a definite wedge being driven into the Democratic party and the left. It’s not a symptom of primary hangovers, it’s a carefully calculated tactic being used by Rahm and his minions to force their agenda through in the face of substantial opposition. No doubt Rahm’s echo chamber would be happy to label us all as “Hillary shills”, but of course that’s a red herring intended to distract people from the legislation at hand by inflaming still-smoldering passions from the campaign.
Unfortunately, Rahm will probably get his way on health care and everything else – until Progressives outnumber Blue Dogs in Congress and are sufficiently organized to push back against the FatCat-WhiteHouse Complex. That’s why “Primary Wars” are exactly what we need in 2010 & 2012. We need to support actual progressive candidates in opposition to the corporatists and “Blue Dogs”.
Maybe that’s why there are more of us hovering around the FDL site than before – we urgently need to continue the discussion of how to implement a Progressive agenda even against the opposition of a corporatist administration. That discussion is being discouraged or squashed elsewhere in the blogosphere.
The fact that Jane Hamsher and the folks at FDL didn’t abandon the public option when all around were caving in, and that some ACTION was actually taken (huzzah!) in the form of “whipping” the House votes, gave some renewed hope to a lot of us who were feeling pretty powerless against the corporate blitz and the mad dash for “campaign contributions”.
Happy 2010 to all! Fasten your seat belts, it’s going to be a bumpy ride!
Can’t do it. My Mitt poster was in the same box as my McCain poster and somehow it got all gooey .
ROOT CAUSE….
To solve any problem you must get at root cause!
Listen here… The problem is not campaign finance. The problem is CANDIDATE CHARACTER. Far too many of them are back-stabbing duplicitous liars. THEY are the problem. Like Tiger Woods and Barak Obama and Charlie Sheen they have CHARACTER issues. We need a good character filter. Besides they supreme court has said money is free speech and I sure as heck don’t want to see a con-con to try and change the constitution because that WOULD be the end of this republic.
We need to fix the candidate selection process starting with the Democratic party
I think the the next step is to get up in their face, teabagger style. “You Lie!”, lol. C’mon, it’ll be fun.
“What do you think should be the focus of 2010?”
Going after a couple of blue dogs would be a good start.
I received a begagram from PCCC today. In it they listed some of their accomplishments. Among them was running ads in Nebraska that caused Ben Nelson to dip into his war chest threee years early to counter them.
Initiatives that yield clear, measurable and unambiguous results are a good start. Whatever actions FDL takes or advocates must result in demonstration of power. Other writers have talked about the need to pull the center to the left. This cannot happen merely with rhetoric and idealism. It must include actions that produce results.
OT I am watching a live site from South Africa at a very fancy lodge in the bush. They just had Happy New Year. Very interesting.
Nonsense. This is natural selection as it applies to politicians. Those people are the candidates because their characteristics make them successful. To change what sort of individuals are successful, you need to change the environment somehow.
I never posted on Kos…sorry dude, but never wasted my time over there….What’s your f-ing point anyway or can’t you read English….
I already posted the sites over the years where I registered. I do not comment on every site I go and don’t register much either.
Gotta problem with that?
Cause I am in no mood for people to get personal with me and start challenging what I’ve done before.
Got that?
I don’t appreciate sarcasm….Sarcasm is a form of anger and I would rather people be honest with their anger rather than hide it behind sarcastic digs which is nothing but verbal aggression if you are wondering why my response is as strong as your wise-ass sarcasm.
Take it easy, man, he’s on your side. He was banned for not conforming, and was curious if the same happened to you.
I think personalities are part of what is driving the vitriol, but only part.
I’m a relative newcomer to FDL, so I may be wrong in my assessment, but I believe that the authors and commenters here — especially Jane — will have have had a truly profound impact on the Obama administration going forward. At FDL, more than at any other blog, Obama has been exposed for what he is. He basically bet his presidency on the manner in which he pursued health care insurance reform, an issue that nearly everyone was tuned into. And he lost — big time.
Millions of his supporters have come independently to distrust him and those around him. FDL signals to them — or those with whom they discuss politics — that they are correct in those feelings. INMHO, this is what is causing the most extreme vitriol toward Jane and FDL. His integrity is at issue here.
When my enemies call me a liar, I get stronger; when my friends call me a liar, I suffer badly. What those who really hate Jane fear the most is that she will persuade those who feel independently that Obama may be more dangerous than Shrub that they are correct. That she will persuade them next time, from the very start of the process, that his means don’t justify the ends.
That’s the fear: That millions of would-be supporters will draw the conclusion that this guy has done enough damage to us — that he can’t be let anywhere near entitlements, environment, energy etc.
They fear that FDL — as small and as powerless as it seems — just may hold the future of the Obama administration in its hands.
I thought we were interested in being effective not necessarily having fun. Then again why does it need to be mutually exclusive. For instance if they run as progressive but vote otherwise we will have the proof with the rating system. At that point we can be informed tea partiers and say you LIE!
Hey, both is fine with me. I just notice that these professional liars really like to insulate themselves in their little bubble, I doubt their staff updates them about what transparait thinks, but doing the screaming rabble routine in their face (youtube), my/your POV is kind of hard to evade.
Well that was the final irony. When Obama announced his staff, it was one of those moments where you go “okay, I get it, we spent all that energy figuring out who gets to be the spokesperson.”
Rahmbo! Booga Booga!
Clintons! Booga Booga!
Still, with the personalities.
Again, as a former Clinton-backer, I didn’t rely on HOPE, I knew I was going to have to fight for every single issue regardless of WHO was President. Is it so freaking difficult to admit that HOPE was FAIL?
And
Public Option? Seriously?
Strongly disagree… Far too many are there because the PTB put them there. Take the empty suit of a president we have. What had he ever done (besides pledging to do any and everything for wall street)? He gave a GD speach! Thats it… sum total of his resume … hell corporate america does a better job of screening middle managers than the democrats do selecting candidates.
I think we would regret ending the filibuster…..oh, I really do. This group of Dems should have made the right actually filibuster, I think….instead of rolling over. Made it too easy.
Yes, the abolition of this FED system makes total sense. And because the government will not on its own accede to that measure, we should entetain other ways to accomplish the same task.
One way to demand such changes would be more public awareness and a move to defund large private banks by large withdrawal of deposits in large numbers.
“hell corporate america does a better job of screening middle managers than the democrats do selecting candidates.”
No, same deal. And let’s not talk about Caribou Barbie, hm?
“hell corporate america does a better job of screening middle managers than the democrats do selecting candidates.”
You’ll be better served accepting that they are one and the same, Corporate America & Government = hand in glove.
The Party Democrats selected the right candidate, – never doubt that!
I worked to get Obama elected knowing full well I’d need to hold him accountable. FISA Amendment cloture vote made it clear that he would fail many times, and I stopped donating or working for a couple of months at that time.
FDL is doing a good job pointing out continuing failures. Dawn Johnson’s non confirmation is a big one for me. Opaque deal making with PhRMA is another. Bagram prison another.
Pointing out these failures doesn’t mean I’m against Obama, just that I want him to walk the walk he campaigned on. I’m not cynical enough to think we don’t have influence.
I suspect I’ll work for reelection in 2012. I’ll also be working to replace some in Congress and keep pushing for people to pay attention to state legislative races in 2010 – the chance to influence decennial redistricting is a big prize and we need to engage in state level activism to claim it.
Gonna check out. Despite my OWN IT diatribe above, I do still recognize, and believe, that most of us that post here are going to agree on far, far, far more issues than we’ll disagree on, and wanted to leave saying that. The enemy is still the right wing, not each other here.
Hope EVERYONE has a very fun, Happy, and SAFE New Year. May the best days of your past be the worst of your future. Best of luck to All in the New Year.
Peace.
I think you are correct. If you are, then he has two choices, continue along the same compromised path while attacking his friends to neutralize them or he can be the man everyone knows is lurking inside.
I for one do not buy into the idea that Obama is a corporatist simply based on his past he didn’t run to cash in when he left law school and he didn’t run into politics for all intents and purposes he is a late comer to politics.
In the beginning he didn’t even know any big money donors.
The problem is that his advisors are bought and paid for and he is getting the same side of the an argument argument twice, instead of competing arguments. So while he believe he is making choices based on progressive vs conservative choices, he is actual chosing between corporatist and less corporatist choices. Believe it or not a President is only as good as the advisors/bureacracy around him. If he is convinced by his foot soldiers that they do not have the military strength to take the hill he is the type that will settle for the secondary price which is to go around the hill and leave the treasures on the hill.
I personally still believe in the man and it has nothing to do with my being black (though I am).
I just believe that one needs to be able to change not only the guy in the big chair but also the entire entrenched corporatist infrastructure including the DLC, New Democrats in Congress, as well as the Blue Dogs, the lists of “qualified advisors’ from which I had to chose etc, et.
You may regret it… but the Republicans will do it anyway! Mark my words… They don’t let stupid little thinks like traditions get in their way and neither should democrats…. except far too many democrats only PRETEND to represent we the people while doing the biding of corporations. It does not have to be a struggle.
“I suspect I’ll work for reelection in 2012.”
Sorry to hear that.
That is exactly my point! We need a candidate selection process that eliminates the duplicitous corporate stooges like Obama et al.
As above, I disagree with the characterization that Obama is a corporate stooge. See my post at 195.
Filibusters, holds and any other measures which aggrandize the power of individul Senators is a huge mistake. These measures serve only to abort the enactment of legislation.
That is what the legislature is meant to do. If absurd legislation is passed then mechanisms must be provided for to recall and remove elected officials. Elected officials should be wary of being removed by popular will and that risk of removal should be facilitated and more readily applied.
Of course the Senate itself will never accede to these measures so they should be enacted by public ballot initiatives by each state. those recall initiatives should begin at once.
Alas, they still do this. But in turn they still see the only viable option as one between the Democrats and the Republicans. Yet the Democrats and the Republicans are both appendages of Wall Street in a way that is simply not grasped by most voters. And because the Democrats and the Republicans can in fact be very much at odds with respect to many social issues it is easy to confuse that with economic issues—where their differences are more tactical than strategic.
How is [what I call] the Bilderberger exposed in such a way Main Street Americans can see the clear need to abandon it?
Jane, it’s so great to see the ‘big mo’ that has built here at FDL. In the wake of the HCR debacle I’ve been trying to persuade my well-intended family and friends during the holidays about issue-focus, not party-focus, or personality-focus, or simple left-right spectrum, etc. I find that I’m using concepts and terms that you (and Glen G. and a few others) have coined or popularized, such as my fav the ‘Veal Pen’. Have you considered one concise post or brief ‘glossary’ overview of the real political landscape? Something we could easily forward and discuss with others who aren’t everyday readers of FDL? I think this is an ideal time to educate many who are bewildered at what has happened to all the “Hope”. Now while HCR is still hovering, but before all the stupid that will start as the pull of the 2010 election gets stronger. Soon, we’ll all be again living in a Chuck Todd world.
Happy New Year to all!
“I think you are correct. If you are, then he has two choices, continue along the same compromised path while attacking his friends to neutralize them or he can be the man everyone knows is lurking inside.”
“I serve as a blank screen on which people of vastly different political stripes project their own views.” -Barack Obama
http://www.bartcop.com/
You’re making my argument for me. Those things are all part of the environment – the fat cats, the money, the voters who don’t pay attention. The character of the politicians is not the problem, it’s a symptom.
IOW, Obama is a sock-puppet. Helpless to resist the strings pulled by his Clintonista advisors/puppeteers. So busy and pre-occupied that he doesn’t even realize he has other choices. He would like to break out of the phonebooth as Progressive Superman, but is held in place by Blue Dog kryptonite. Meh.
Apparently the Hopium is still working strong. In case you hadn’t been paying attention….
Happy new year all FDL’ers especially you Jane. I love you. Final parting point. A politician cannot be fixed once its in office. If he’s/she’s a back-stabbing dublicitous liar or subject to being black-mailed or bought off with bribes that’s not going to change (no matter what we want or do)… it a character defect and cannot be repaired. We need to concentrate on getting a higher caliber of politician (ie Kuciniches and Kapturs and Graysons and Sanders) elected in the first place. Get to the root cause (character flaws) and the problems will solve themselves
We agree to disagree… His actions say he is ( a corporate stooge )
The corporations are far too entrenched, the congress critters are far too beholden to their corporate donors.
Unless there is a populist uprising, – nothing will significantly change.
I think we are saying the same thing.
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. But it also conveniently overlooks that Obama was the clear choice of the party apparatus. Pelosi, et. al. had already said so as far back as March of 2008.
Hence, why the irony? Why the surprise?
It’s not about the personalities – it’s about the POLICIES. I voted for Bill Clinton & would have voted for Hillary had there been no realistic alternative. But there were a lot of policies enacted under Bill Clinton which I didn’t and don’t like. I never “hated” Hillary, I merely preferred other candidates (like Kucinich!). And I never really paid attention to Rahm until he started deliberately scuttling progressive legislation whenever it appeared. He may be a real swell guy, but he’s working against the stuff I want and pushing further corporate enrichment at taxpayer expense. He’s on the wrong side of the issues.
And yes, the public option still matters. It’s a central aspect of health care reform without which the pending legislation is worse than useless. Obama’s refusal to lift a finger for such a crucial item demonstrates pretty clearly that he is completely out of touch with ordinary voters and totally engaged with the corporate agenda. I’m sure he’s a warm and wonderful fellow, but he’s also on the wrong side of the issues.
My calculus on this is the unfortunate “What is my choice”. I came back to GoTV and fundraising after the FISA Amendments because I saw the alternative as being much worse. I suspect I’ll be in the same situation in 2012.
It doesn’t mean I’ll help during the primary season, nor that I’ll stop trying to get Obama to better walk the walk.
Begining at the local level… Democrats need to reclaim the Democratic party from the corporations. Its completely doable where as changing campaign finance is NOT. The corporate bastards in office will never reform theselves and the corporate supreme court wouldn’t allow it anyway. Populist ? Yes! Take back what those corporate bastages stole!
Thanks. My favorite quote on the topic was from Gov. Arnold who said on the campaign trail in Cal : gay marriage should be between a man and a woman! very personal and private business that the Bill OF Rights has covered already. I thought that Jane was talking about the Plame thing.
From the school of thought that the eyes are the windows of the soul, Jane has beautiful, brilliant eyes, and I am interested in whatever she has to say, on any topic she feels like talking about.
Civil Rights are Civil Rights for all no matter what regardless, people start trouble when they try to force their perspective on others of different perspective especially religion or lifestyle persuasions, the Constitution spares all of us from harrasment from any one whom we would disagree. I trust that intelligent minds will find a way to transcend what is personal between an individual and the Providence.
Local politics magnifies our effort’s effectiveness. More bang for the buck and volunteer hour in a race that garners 4,000 total votes than in a race with 40,000 voters (speaking of primary elections for County/State Assembly vs Congress). GoTV for a local primary can be very effective.
This is one reason I’ll keep harping about decennial redistricting. In many states electing progressive legislatures can change Congress for the 2012-2020 elections.
Many financial sector bloggers are predicting a depression by Q2, warning of serious public unrest.
Dilute the Dems. sense of entitlement by electing Independents, by in fact insisting to support only Independents.
One way is to make aggravation with a firearm of any other Federal or even state or local offense a very serious crime indeed — multiple years in Federal PMITA prison for first offenses, 20 to life where loss of life is involved — in exchange for dropping most of the bureaucracy surrounding the transfer and possession of assault weapons and handguns. I mean, the NRA represents responsible gun owners, right? Not hindering responsible gun ownership is hardly a bad thing, right? Then irresponsible gun ownership shouldn’t pose a problem, right?
Unfortunately, such a position weakens the Establishment instead of strengthening it, so don’t count on it happening under the current regime. However, as the Archdruid recently wrote, it’s not a bad idea to have these sorts of trans-partisan ideas floating around out there and tumble-polishing themselves against other ideas for the consideration of future regimes.
Actions, decisions, issues, principles, capability, personality, party. In that order.
Anarchy is a perfectly defensible arrangement for people to engage in. It merely means local control over our affairs where the people who will bear the consequences of their local government determine which issues and what ends are important to them.
My point is that we should never see the people we place into the government as holding more power than ourselves. That is a recipe for the very abuses we are seeing before our eyes. The present government feels no compunction to act counter to the wishes of the people precisely because they have the power to do so.
That power they have must be wrested away and placed in the hands of the people who have needs that have to be met. It is not reasonable to endow people in government with the power to act against you, it is a mistake that should be obvious to anyone.
Recall elections should be in place in every state and used readily for reason, non compliance and legal challenges to onerous provisions should be carried out readily, no anti democratic privileges should be granted to elected officials such as filibustering or placing anonymous holds.
The thrust of all these mesures is to divest power away from people in government. Their power to do harm must be kept to a minimum. Their role in our lives must be kept to those tasks that suits our purpose. What I am maintaining is that these are the sorts of measures we should be looking into now rather than pleading to people in government to use their power over us in a benign way.
Again, here is a list of Obama’s top corporate campaign contributers—going back just to 2004!!!
Lawyers/Law Firms $45,536,606
Misc Business $16,659,064
Securities & Investment $15,984,457
Health Professionals $12,107,594
Business Services $12,010,201
Real Estate $11,032,591
TV/Movies/Music $9,274,665
Computers/Internet $8,626,410
Misc Finance $6,776,515
Printing & Publishing $6,147,904
Commercial Banks $3,537,569
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $3,476,868
Construction Services $3,037,465
These numbers are huge even by SOP crony capitalism standards.
It is crystal clear that corporate America sure as hell knew him. And I don’t buy the narrative that he was some newbie to the way of the world inside the beltway. This man was groomed for big things in Washington. And he knew precisely which power brokers to choose when putting together his economic and foreign policy teams.
Obama not an insider? Believe that and I’ve got a bridge I’d like to sell you. And it ain’t cheap either.
I spend hours here, rarely posting, mostly reading, learning and feeling pretty darn educated when leaving. FDL is undeniably the BEST site on the Inter-Toobs. Thanks!
I would argue, and I am fairly confident that corruption is in government is proportional to the localness of that government. For example municipal governments are the most corrupt followed by states and then federal. So you idea of local government being better or even more effective doesn’t really hold water. Why would those arguing for stronger exchanges want them to be federally managed if states did such a great job.
No offense, those numbers look suspect. Please link to source.
Either way I expressed my opinion and you did yours. We still agree on the fundamental point that change has not come so more activism is required – lest not loose sight of that fundamental truth.
Glad to hear that Jane.
My point of view is really not a deep seated dislike for government but more a realization that the disparity in power towards people in government is institutionalized. In fact that is largely what motivates people to enter into government.
And in addition, that it is that disparity of power that needs to be corrected with solutions we have at hand. People in government should simply never wield more power than the public. And we had better begin the task of correcting that imbalance right now.
The source is OpenSecrets.org
And then what? Watch the Establishment birth from their foreheads a fully formed New Democratic Party with the same ownership, much the same bosses (or near enough to be indistinguishable), the same consultants feeding the same corporate media with the same “a vote against the Establishment is a wasted vote” folderol, with a “new” pre-fab narrative about how those DFHes turned the party into a socialist nuthouse and sniveling about how the party left them, yadda yadda?
I dunno about that, Yogi. The Establishment is not going to simply hand one jaw of their pliers over to us without a replacement lined up.
Monty,
BTW here are Obama’s top donors:
Goldman Sachs $994,795
Harvard University $854,747
Microsoft Corp $833,617
Google Inc $803,436
Citigroup Inc $701,290
JPMorgan Chase & Co $695,132
Time Warner $590,084
Sidley Austin LLP $588,598
Stanford University $586,557
National Amusements Inc $551,683
UBS AG $543,219
Wilmerhale Llp $542,618
Skadden, Arps et al $530,839
IBM Corp $528,822
Columbia University $528,302
Morgan Stanley $514,881
General Electric $499,130
US Government $494,820
Latham & Watkins $493,835
I couldn’t agree more. And I’d like to point out, as a matter of history, that FDR being attacked from the left helped him accomplish many of his greatest works. Attacking Obama from his left may upset a few of his staffers but it may also open the door for Obama to bring us better governance.
And since it’s the end of the year I’d like to give thanks to at least a few of the people who have given me strength and vision in 2009:
William Black – a man willing to fall on his sword(repeatedly) to do what is right.
James Galbraith and Robert Reich – for championing a path to a better tomorrow.
Dean Baker – for exceptional efforts aimed at keeping our media honest.
And last but not least:
Jane Hamsher – for leading the amazing online community at FDL and acting as an advocate for the community.
Happy New Year’s everyone! Let’s hope(and work) for a better year than the last.
TidBit of the Day from WizardLeft1962:
Here is the “mainstream media’s” take on populism. Here that use Sarah Palin and the right wing’s populism, but, they also harshly criticized the populism of John Edwards during the presidential campaign when he raised very serious class and labor issues, even if he (Edwards) was completely sincere about it. Here is an exchange between Andrea Mitchell and David Gregory from last Sunday’s “Meet the Press” program on NBC. Andrea Mitchell is very “frightened” she tells the host here. Gregory gets all upset about the attacks on the “media.” I don’t know if anyone caught this exchange, but, here it is.
MS. MITCHELL: “….What I noticed when I was out covering Sarah Palin when she was out on the book tour, at 4 and 5 and 6 in the morning on freezing days, when people had been out for hours, camped out with their kids because they wanted to see her, they are so hungry for a symbol for anyone who can give them answers. And in this case, she was just signing books. But there’s an anger out there, and I have not seen it since my very first campaign, which was 1968 and George Wallace. And that is the angry populism which is not fact-based, it’s just furious at everybody; angry at Democrats, at Republicans. The tea party has higher numbers in our last NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll than either of the other traditional parties. And that is what I think this news cycle which you referred to is feeding into, and that is what does frighten me. This spirit of America is so large and embracing, but there is an angry subtext because of economic dislocation that is very, very worrisome….”
MR. GREGORY: “…And the, the–if -part of what we’re talking about here is this energy in the country which is anti-establishment, anti-big institution–whether it’s Wall Street, or it’s government, or it’s, or it’s education, or it’s the media, mainstream media–what does the president do as the head of the United States government; again, a leader with so much promise, but so much difficulty in terms of harnessing everyone together, what does he do now to lead?…”
Thanks
Correction:
“even if he (Edwards) was NOT completely sincere about it.”
George for the record 88% of Obama’s money came from individuals as said by the site you directed me to. So based on that I would have to say if all you use is the money to tag him as corporatist then you’ll have to tag him as only 12% corporatist … just saying, fair is fair.
No Lehman? – no more Lehman!
Some will
I think it’s safe to say that anyone who comes here and sticks around does not accept this proposition, i.e. that it’s enough that they don’t have R’s after their names or that they’re somehow better because they are better at marketing themselves to Americans generally or to certain demographics.
I’ll admit that it’s completely baffled me.
I find myself wondering why we keep arguing with them. Why not just focus on doing the work that needs to be done, call for action that needs to be undertaken, and let those who see it and want to participate do so?
Also, wouldn’t it make sense to start thinking more about primaries and midterms next year? Or is Jane saying with this post that she wants to focus on FDL’s charter, i.e. focus on issues first, and on paritcular candidates second? If there’s going to be focus on candidates like there was in ’06 on Lamont, I’ve also been wondering if it might make more sense to focus on a few House races rather than a Senate seat. I think Reid and Lincoln will feel the pain they’ve inflicted on themselves whether we focus the fight on them or not.
ALso you made a statement that the contributions goes back to 2004. This is inaccurate according to the page it was for the 2008 Presidential cycle. Far as I know he wasn’t running for President six years ago, so that statement rates a “pants on fire”!
You must realize that having presumably donated to Obama, you will not be found in his Blackbery’s address book, while the CEO’s of the following Institutions will: Goldman Sachs, Harvard University , Microsoft Corp , Google Inc , Citigroup Inc , JPMorgan Chase & Co , Time Warner , Sidley Austin LLP , Stanford University , National Amusements Inc , UBS AG, Wilmerhale Llp , Skadden, Arps et al , IBM Corp , Columbia University , Morgan Stanley , General Electric, Latham & Watkins
I assume that finding such a list associated with, say, Bush, would have impressed a different conclusion upon you.
I think we have very little to agree on.
Why would you think that a central government by it’s very nature is inherently less corrupt than a smaller more local government? Is it more accountable to the people that elect them? Or is it more transparent and responsible in its dealings?
Let me remind you the federal government has generated a 2.9 trillion dollar defict for the past 2 years, while states are obligated by law to balance their books every year.
But anyway you are free to believe what you like. I am not advocating for the abolition of a central government but merely devolving more power to the local level where actions by elected officilas will be more responsive to local needs.
An excellent thing to watch to help shed ones inadvertently rising residue of stupor:
If such was the fare fed to our high school students; HOPE would more than just another four letter word
Manufacturing Consent video stream:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/118171/manufacturing-consent
Thanks for the info. I have loved Ms. Mitchell ever since her outstanding journalism on the 3 mile island cloister-flock. The spirit in the U.S. is getting more ugly than it was in the late 60s. Mr. Gregory is using too many watered down excuse words for TREASON: economically, environmentally, Constitutionally, and intellectually speaking, just for starters; pure and simple.
Ms. Mitchell is famous for telling it like it is, and she is nice to people, unlike the rabid dog style that seems to be popular these days. Jane should go on the Andrea Mitchell show, i bet she would reach an intelligent collective of people who might not yet know who she is.
Something Jane might appreciate; I supported Edwards solely on his Senate Floor remarks in favor of Patients Rights. He sure proved Anne Colter to be a liar, the hard way. aw shucks.
Awesome!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejRal5xFWA4
The Democratic Party Cannot Call Themselves The PARTY OF FDR OR EVEN LBJ ON SOCIAL ISSUES Any Longer!!!
These Democrats are the “New Reagan Democrats” and so, so far removed from anything resembling Franklin Delano Roosevelt…..Even the late Senator Edward M. “Ted” Kennedy was seen as a sellout to some, such as Lee Sustar and Lance Selfa of the Socialist Worker….
SocialistWorker.org
Myth of the liberal lion
Ted Kennedy’s political career reflects the course of American liberalism, from its heyday in the 1960s to its sorry state today
August 28, 2009 | Issue 705
By Lance Selfa
“….Kennedy abandoned his own bill in 1974 and later supported legislation that preserved the role of the private insurance industry in the health care sector….Kennedy’s willingness to give up on big plans in exchange for incremental half-measures was emblematic not only of his adaptation to the back rooms of the U.S. Senate, but also of a larger shift in the ambition and scope of liberalism as it began to feel the assault of the conservative ascendancy of the 1970s…..Within a few years, not only was a strengthened Republican Party readying the neoliberal attack on the gains of the 1960s, but conservative politics began to influence the mainstream of the Democratic Party. The policies that later became known as “Reaganomics”–austerity for the poor, pro-business tax cuts for the rich, and deregulation–actually got their start during the ill-fated Democratic administration of Jimmy Carter, with an assist from Ted Kennedy…. Pro-business Kennedy staffers Alfred Kahn, who became a guru of deregulation under Carter, and Stephen Breyer, now one of the more pro-business justices of the U.S. Supreme Court, pioneered these policies. KENNEDY WASN’T as conservative as Carter, or as the next neoliberal Democratic President Bill Clinton. In fact, Kennedy mounted a failed liberal challenge to Carter for the Democratic presidential nomination in 1980. He denounced Clinton’s 1996 “welfare reform” bill abolishing Aid to Families with Dependent Children….. But once the “liberal lion” Kennedy endorsed a free-market policy like deregulation, it made it easier for other more conservative Democrats to go along with the Republicans as the GOP proceeded to move U.S. politics to the right. Kennedy even voted for the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings bill imposing mandatory budget cuts in 1985…. As much as right-wing politicians demonized Kennedy, they were happy to have his support when it came their way…..It’s this Ted Kennedy–the one who put ideological ideals aside to cut bipartisan deals–who the political media has celebrated so much since his death….”
Lee Sustar wrote in Socialist Worker:
“It was Kennedy who called for deregulation of the airline and trucking industries as early as 1974, two years before Carter was elected. “[Kennedy] won Carter to the cause in the 1976 campaign and ultimately gave the president the issue,” the Boston Globe noted…The consequences of Kennedy-sponsored deregulation are still being felt in the series of airline bankruptcies today and the virtual deunionization of the trucking industry.”
I am an avowed Socialist myself and totally opposed to this criminal National Security State ideology of those holding the institutional levers of power. I also think nothing of criticzing the military, including those lawbreakers in the armed services…..I think the military budget should be drowned in a bathtub myself. America should not be sending young people to die for the Empire. So, in this sense, I am not afraid to say, yes, I oppose your fighting in a war and that I do not agree with anyone signing up to do so. So, I do not look at any “soldier” as doing anything honorable when they are killing innocent people.
Liberals have become way too shy and restrained in talking about the military and allow the right and the militarists to frame this issue. I refuse to yield any ground on the soldiers-military issue whatsover. America’s years of covert actions have led to the present problems of other nations and nonstate actors hating this country. So, I cannot say that I honestly support the troops killing indigenous peoples in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Iraq, etc.
Excellent writing and very thought provoking as always Jane.
Please keep up the great work you do.
Ms. Andrea (Mitchell)Greenspan would not dare to have Jane on!
Well, she did have Jane on in August, and Mrs. Greenspan regrets it, perhaps.
Firedoglake.com’s Jane Hamsher on Co-ops, Public Option, and the Politics of Health Care Reform
Myth of the liberal lion.
Teddy should be awarded a posthumous Oscar. He was one of the best actors on that Senate stage!
Gutsy then, unless the topic precluded discussing The Fed Chairman’s role in the current economic melt down,
thanks, mod!
Gonalb, I am an economist by training though not by practice. Running a deficit is hardly a sign of corruption and infact is proper especially in times like these when the market has failed and people need to get back to work or get support with unemployment benefitsor social assistance.
But you are correct, we agree on little when it comes to governance… but that’s cool.
Have you considered writing a dairy instead. It seems a post response is hardly the place for an essay, plus it appears you have a lot of good things to say.
All you are arguing in that post is that individuals need to get top line attention just like corporate donors. That I agree with and I believe is what motivates many on FDL, which is how to get politicians to be more responsive to individuals and not corporations. What individuals need to do is focused their strenght into a single overwhelming force or multiple overwhelming forces – just so long as these forces are effective.
However the treatise that he is a corporate stooge becuase of donations did not hold up under closer scrutiny if all its based on was donations.
Thanks for the link. As a cancer survivor myself, have appreciated Jane Hamshires spirit and intelligence for years on c-span, just very recently learned that Jane is a cancer survivor, I love the way Jane never fails to shoot down bull shit. Jane is on a Misson From God.
Well, thanks for your kind words….
As for the diary idea, perhaps, you could clue me in on what you mean. I do not go to many, of what I call “busy blogsites.” I avoid the “busy ones” like HuffPost and DU. I like this set up on FDL much more than the other two which are actually poorly designed.
I think FDL is better organized and has a much better set-up than the HuffPost or DU…….You get dizzy just trying to load the HuffPost….I go over to the HuffPost when former Senator Fritz Hollings has an article over there or when I need an article for research which has been written there. I avoid the HuffPost at all other times when I can….
I do not need celebrities like Bill Maher or Michael Moore to tell me how or what to think either. Arianna Huffington just loves to have those celebrity voices on her site.
If you are not a corporate stooge you’re not likely to be elected President.
But if you prefer, he is a Wall Street stooge, Robert Rubin stooge, ‘Lord’ Blankenfein stooge. His donors, cabinet, advisors and actions point rather unambiguously to that conclusion.
exactly. Some of my favorite Teddy Senate Floor moments were when He was shit-faced drunk, usally early afternoon on Fridays. Ted aint no Robert, He did his best, I guess, but to use Ted Kennedy as a reason to vote the Senate version is pitifull.
Many of us supported Obama because we expected Hillary to walk the same corporate path that Bill Clinton had trodden and that she had embraced as a Senator. Evidently, the joke was on us.
That is exactly it.
If there was a leadership test between 2001 and 2008, the (sitting) Dem leadership
basicallyutterly failed it. So I was willing to go with Obama as outsider guy.Now we’re stuck (again!) with the Clintonites, none of whom I much cared for. And all of whom seem to think that basically the Junior was correct, more or less, he just wasn’t erudite enough.
If Obama was an R with the R agenda and Junior had a late in life conversion to the Democrats and a liberal agenda, I’d take Junior in a heartbeat.
max
['Seems obvious enough.']
IN OBAMA’S AMERICA:
Published on Thursday, December 31, 2009 by CNN
US Judge Dismisses All Charges in Blackwater Iraq Killings
WASHINGTON – “A federal judge dismissed manslaughter charges Thursday against five Blackwater security guards in the 2007 deaths of Iraqi civilians in a Baghad square, finding that prosecutors wrongly used the men’s own statements against them.”
Read the entire article @:
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/12/31-6
Published on Thursday, December 31, 2009 by The Independent/UK
Threats to Yemen Prove America Hasn’t Learned the Lesson of History
by Patrick Cockburn
We are the Awaleq
Born of bitterness
We are the sparks of hell
He who defies us will be burned
“….This is the tribal chant of the powerful Awaleq tribe of Yemen, in which they bid defiance to the world. Its angry tone conveys the flavour of Yemeni life and it should give pause to those in the US who blithely suggest greater American involvement in Yemen in the wake of the attempt to destroy a US plane by a Nigerian student who says he received training there….The US will get entangled because the Yemeni government will want to manipulate US action in its own interests and to preserve its wilting authority. It has long been trying to portray the Shia rebels in north Yemen as Iranian cats-paws in order to secure American and Saudi support. Al-Qa’ida in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) probably only has a few hundred activists in Yemen, but the government of long time Yemeni President Ali Abdulah Salih will portray his diverse opponents as somehow linked to al-Qa’ida.”
Read the entire article @:
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/12/31
Taking Aim with Ralph Schoenman and Mya Shone Radio Show on WBAI, New York, shows can be downloaded at:
http://takingaimradio.com/shows/audio.html
091222
Obama and the House of Torture, part 1:
John Yoo, The Justice Department and Jose Padilla
Includes Ralph Poynter’s update on the Lynne Stewart case
See program 091124.
Yep, kicking the can down the road solution, as Clusterfuck Nation (James Kunstler) so eloquently suggested has put the can in the sewer. Whoever tries to kick it again is going to first go down to find it.
We’ve spent what we didn’t have to save those that didn’t deserve anything beyond jail time. But the bills that made them rich will be all ours to pay.
I meant a dairy entry on Seminal
Influenced by maybe. But a stooge? Hardly.
Kevin Drum is now with Mother Jones. Drum however is still…well…a milquetoasty “centrist” (with centrist in scare quotes ’cause these days with the Democratic Party more conservative than 70′s Republicans and Republicans just plain crazy, I have no idea what “centrist” even means) who has gotten a plum gig for reasons that absolutely elude me.
I don’t have anything against Kevin Drum personally. I just don’t think he adds much of value to this debate. Or any debate. I finally took his blog off my blogroll ’cause I couldn’t quite figure out why it was there other than the fact that so many people seem to read him.
I’ve been a long time FDL reader/supporter. But a quick glance at my bookmark list shows what’s happened over the last few months.
I used to always visit FDL first, then drift over to HuffPo, TPM and Crooks & Liars to get an additional view. [I deserted the Great Orange Satan long ago.] Then occasionally Washington Monthly. Always Digby and Glenn.
Since the Great Rift, I don’t visit TPM at all, or Wash. Monthly. I’ll check out HuffPo just to see how stuff is being “sold” over there. C&L, maybe occasionally if I’m hungry for videos.
I find it sad, really, especially about TPM. I’d like to have more “friends,” but the old ones are so misguided, I just can’t deal with them.
OTOH, I do spend more time than ever here. And with Digby & Glenn.
Thanks, Jane.
I think that people make a mistake when they think of Bill Clinton while talking about Hillary, or in other cases (not you in the post I am responding to though) say “the Clintons” as though Bill and Hillary were joined at the hip and of like mind on every issue.
Hillary is a strong person in her own right. And I don’t think that the argument I get from those who still are in love with “the idea of Obama” that Hillary would have done exactly what Obama has done holds water. Hillary knew that it would be a fight:
Obama either doesn’t want to fight (which I actually do not think is the case), or is in fact fighting and what we see him doing/fighting for (and against) is what he actually believes in (which is what I do believe.)
I’d be curious to know what passes for “hard left” in the United States these days. So many people I see referred to as “hard left” would be centrists or even conservatives in Canada, Germany, France or the UK.
.
I always love it when folks say, “so and so did a complete 360,” when they really mean “he did a 180.”
So much we all could have learned in junior high!
TarheelDem @ 75: I think Jane was trying to say she’d like to get Obama BACK to where he was [or said he was] originally.
We agree. The trouble with the Obama Administration is that it s the third term of Clintonism. It’s hard to imagine that Hillary’s Administration would have been any different.
She’s all about defending BooMan.
Harriet?
Enlighten me please.
Obama raised:
$200 and Under $246,110,054
$200.01 – $499 $93,823,329
$500 – $999 $72,686,303
$1000 – $1999 $91,949,666
$2000 and Over $136,580,219
Sure, Obama was able to establish a grassroots organization that encompassed millions of men and women. And he was able to convince them to fork over millions and millions of dollars because he convinced them in turn that unlike most other presidential candidates he really was “going to change the way Washington works”
I’m sure there there are folks here who contributed to his “change we can believe in” campaign.
But what is $50 here or $500 there from folks on Main Street compared to the $500,000 here and $950,000 there from Goldman Sachs and Chase bank?
You saw the staggering dollar amounts he has received from Wall Street. The finance industry alone contributed $6,000,000 to his inaugguration festivities—more than any other corporate sector.
He’s a democratic fraud. Learn to live with it.
“We didn’t take sides…”
Jane, you’ve done some great work for our side; that is, the progressives, but the above is disingenuous, to say the least.
In the primaries, as Hillary Clinton kept moving to the right, and as practically all of the major progressive organizations came out against her, including the National Organization for Women, a lot of good democrats started posting about her “triangulating”, and FDL did all it could to suppress that useful, ernest, and valid debate.
I think the term “pie fight” was invented on here, to try to trivialize the criticism of Clinton, and to try to blunt the anger of most of the progressive wing of the party that was being directed at she and her campaign of throwing her natural constituency under the bus, as she had clearly made the decision that she could trade progressive support for conservative support, and come out ahead. It was, as we now know, a politically fatal choice. (It’s worth noting that Obama is currently doing practically the same thing, and he, also, is paying a price for it, and if he continues, the tab is only going to get bigger.)
The idea that during the campaign there was little to choose from between Clinton and Obama, is nonsense. Obama was, by a mile, the more progressive and more principled of the two. He never attempted to curry favor with the people who’ve nearly ruined the country, by moving to the right of Clinton, whereas, she (and Bill) did it regularly, relative to he and his positions.
In hindsight, he has, in many respects, been an acute disappointment, but most progressives, and a lot of other democrats and independents, voted for him enthusiastically, and were delighted when he won big and used his coattails to give us the majorities in congress which, I freely admit, he has yet to use with much leadership. It’s left a vacuum.
It’s clear that not only the republicans are capitalizing on this vacuum; there are more and more posts popping up on progressive blogs wistfully opining “If only Hillary had won.” They ignore the campaign she ran, and they ignore that, to this day, she STILL runs with the wardogs.
In fairness, it’s hard to blame them completely; Obama showed us what was coming when he made the major mistake of picking her as Secretary of State, and then, as he proceeded to lard his administration with Clinton era retreads. With Hillary regularly indulging in public disagreement with him on substantive matters, I imagine he’s already regretting it in private, and I would add, that he aint seen nothing yet.
If, as is becoming increasingly likely, we get shellacked at the mid-terms, then he is going to be one hamstrung chief executive…like unto a one-legged duck. And he will largely have done this, himself, by abdicating the mandate he won so convincingly, in favor of congress and being “bipartisan”.
If his numbers along about mid-to-late 2011 are really tanking; that is, in the low 40′s-to high-30′s, I would make it 50-50 that Hillary will find that irresistable, and will resign at State, in order to run against him. If that happens, she won’t do it to run to the left of him, and some so-called progressives are going to have a decision to make. As they make it we can successfully retire the term “piefight” and instead, partake of an intraparty brawl that will make the primary battles look like tiddly-winks.
I once was a staunch supporter of Hillary Clinton. I was delighted when she won the N.Y. Senate seat. I would have supported her run for the nomination, but by then she had already refused to eat that enabling vote for the invasion of Iraq for more than 4 years, and she continued to support the quagmire until it became obvious that her campaign was imploding around her ears, in substantial measure because of her support for Bush’s war.
She is a wholly-owned subsidiary of AIPAC, and her support for Joe Lieberman when he ran and lost against Ned Lamont, an anti-war candidate, in the democratic primary, was a perfect mine-canary of where her loyalties and priorities lie. I,ve seen nothing to indicate any change in that in her time as Sec. of State.
I don’t think that most progressives, suffering from the disappointment of Obama’s taking them for granted, will be much into standing by silently, while some democrats try to do rehab on her.
Jane, I used to teach 7th & 8th grade [English; can you tell?]
In one of my first classes in graduate school, the professor said, “as a teacher, you are going to have kids who are smarter than you. At 12 & 13, they may not be as sophisticated, but they will be smart. You need to be able to deal with that, to not be threatened by it, to value it, to figure out how to use it to everyone’s advantage.”
I have found this to be true with raising my own kids as well.
The “not be threatened by it” is especially important.
I think that on the occasions when things in here “degenerate,” it’s often one person trying to prove he/she is “smarter” than someone else, and feeling threatened by not being able to be “top dog”/ have the last word.
I suspect you will never be convinced that Obama is a Bilderberger. I suspect you will ever be convinced that deep down inside he is still the community organizer working against the crony capitalist system that 1] created our current economic crisis and 2] rewarded the very people on Wall Street who brought it about.
He’s just under the spell of Rahm and Tim and Larry.
I’ll tell you what. Let’s resolve this New Years Eve to get to the bottom of it. This time next year one of us will have convinced the other to see the light.
Frankly, I’d love to be wrong about the guy.
I am Sorry for more than one reason to be scathing…Obama may still be good at heart (I doubt it now, but giving him the benefit). But his actions betray a lack of ability or belief in any substantial issue. Everything the guy does from expanding the wars to golfing in HI during these times is just wrong. Perhaps Rahm convinced him to go fly on the big plane while he takes care of WH business. Maybe fine with them, but the people did not elect Obama for this kind of deal-making. I am new to this site and enjoying its lively debate tremendously. But my greatest joy is seeing Kucinich (DK) getting more than 150 donors the last two days. This is the type of rep we need in congress and it’s time we start thinking about discovering and promoting many more DK out there and running them for office. People here are as passionate as the tea baggers, which is a good thing, but it seems (with all due respect) this site spells and articulates much better than theirs. So let’s use this education and motivation and perhaps deep pockets to move forward with a real progressive agenda. cheers to all.
Well, that’s not how I remember FDL during the primary AT ALL!!!! I’m wondering if this post isn’t to combat some of the accusations around the ‘sphere that your recent aliances are really the kickoff for “Hillary 2012″.
There was an ocean of difference between the candidates in the primary. One was qualified and one was waiting to be crowned successor to the bush/clinton merry-go-round based on marital connections. HUGE difference. HUGE.
One wonders whether the meta-issues of campaign finance reform and media reform (intertwined) can best be approached in a non-party public interest movement to lay an uncorrupted foundation to produce legislation based on policy in the public interest where, yes, there are (relatively) conservative and liberal ways of shaping that policy. The style we’re seeing now in Congress and White House gives us too much of a corporate rather than conservative (or liberal) shaping mode for policy. By this I mean (in my progressive view) there are legitimately two sides (at least) to policy debates (such as spending vs saving, etc) but in a democracy in the larger frame, while the corporate/private interest is not ignored, the priority ideally would be — as much as possible — the public interest. We have to get back to that productive working space. It’s really, literally killing us and the earth not to. Money and our fear of not being re-elected is getting in our way.
As to the insightful notion of “policy, not pols” enunciated nicely by BTD on TL and amplified here by Jane, I believe the newsmedia plays a larger-than-life role in the amplification of pols and personalities that might be reduced somewhat once we achieve significant campaign finance and media reform. You know the cycle and it’s vicious: Most of that massive campaign cash siphoned into Congressional and WH coffers from corporations like health insurance companies goes to media companies to pay for campaign ads and in turn the media denigrate the political class for the sake of entertainment ratings while twisting/non-reporting policy facts of the debate. This is turn cynicizes voters and maintains a steady level of relative voter ignorance – and it all goes round and round. To appreciate the personality content of this media problem, Russell Baker (I believe but could be incorrect) once said, “The president stands at the center of America’s need to be entertained.” That’s (partly) what we’re up against and why I would set a spade and begin digging here at these meta-issues of campaign and media reform so we can get on with successful policy work in the public interest like single payer, environment, energy, education, etc. I don’t expect it to transform in my lifetime but we must make a start.
Your work here on FDL, Jane, is strongly fine and you make me proud to be a progressive.
That’s Fair. Happy New Year my friend, be well.
Issue oriented?
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:6R6FSu-lZakJ:tbogg.firedoglake.com/2008/05/22/well/+tbogg+hillary+clinton+is+like+a+mother+standing
Take a look. Alot was overlooked. There were huge differences in the candidates. One had proven her mettle. One had voted “present’ 127 times.
One had proven her mettle by voting for Bush’s bloody lunacy, and by sticking with the vote for 5-plus years…
and by pimping for John McCain (and herself) as a potentially better commander-in-chief than Obama.
and by letting Rupert Murdoch hold a fundraiser for her.
and by supporting Joe Lieberman (whom we have been flaying the ass off, for lo, these several past years, and rightly so…) in the democratic primary, against Ned Lamont, a good antiwar candidate.
After Obama announced that he was going with the 30,000 troop escalation in Afghanistan, and then tried to cover his ass a bit by saying flatly that he would begin withdrawing troops there in 2011, Hillary “proved her mettle” by hot-footing it over to congress with Robert Gates and Mike Mullen, to say that we wouldn’t be able to start withdrawing in 2011 and still succeed in Afghanistan.
Maybe she’ll prove her mettle in 2012 by running with David Petraeus?
then, in effect, as TarheelDem pointed out, what you’re advocating _is_ a 180° turn from his _present_ position which represents, perhaps, a total revolution (i.e. 360°). You see? TD’s point was correct.
“Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. But it also conveniently overlooks that Obama was the clear choice of the party apparatus. Pelosi, et. al. had already said so as far back as March of 2008. Hence, why the irony? Why the surprise?”
Some (many) people supported Obama at least in part because they believed (with arguably sound reason) that he could and would make a genuine effort to oppose all that has been worst about the Congress—in both parties, without fear or favor. He didn’t do that and it should have been evident that wouldn’t, I suppose, from the moment that he began announcing the intended appointment of so many of the living-dead from the Clinton administrations; then, too, there was the adoption of the lapel flag-pin which should also have told us how utterly conventional this man is politically, no matter how rousing a speech he gives.
HRC supporter here. I do not ‘worship’ her for her personality, lol. it is her POSITIONS. they were NOT the same. HRC acknowledged the need for the universal mandate and form her battle scars knew how not to get rolled and what to fight for, we would have a public option, but she would have waited to introduce the bill/fight and yes it is a fight, something not to shy away from like mr pragmatic, she would have addressed HOUSING first
Obama was to the RIGHT of McCain on housing. Hillary called for HOLC in FEB 08 EWSJ Op Ed, but Obama was the Credit Suisse candidate
he has STILL nto addressed housing
it is so ironic IMO that the Obama purists who think they re progressive on womens rights do not understand the very simple concept that Hillary was to the LEFT of Big Dawg AND Obama
now FAN FRED FHA have a blank check and are still not doing principal writedowns, cramdown is dead.
the middle class is being destroyed and they are about to go after SS
dont tell me that HRC is just like Obama, no way no how
on Defense and Foreign Relations what you mean to say many of you is Obama is just like Hillary
On Foreign Policy and Defense HRC was the hawk, she was to the right of Obama
he has moved to HER position on foreign policy after his failed, open hand Iran etc, he pretended to move to her UHC policy but he is a corporatist in a progressive suit
HRC would fight when it was needed and on UHC it was needed
Obama capitulated on the thing that the progressives said they hated about HRC, and he sold us out on the thing that HRC made her lifes work
call me PUMA whatever, but 24 yrs of downticket DEM voting is now done based on each individual position and not the party label and I will continue to support HRC whenever and however I can
‘pimping’ nice typical neoprog misogynistyic word, and i dont care if you are female
some thing never change and LOTS of Obama neoprogs have mommy issues
It will not make any difference if Hillary is in there.
“And the rationalizations necessary to justify that allegiance in the wake of the extreme corporatist assault on government represented by the health care bill sounds an odd note in the liberal blogosphere, which came of age developing an internal narrative in direct opposition to that”
I’m not so sure about that. It seems to me that the liberal blogosphere came of age in a context of opposition to Bush militarism–the war being THE Bush issue– and general anti-Republican opprobium with a VERY HEAVY cultural emphasis, you know, anti-red state (anything and everything). Economic issues were simply part of the bacground, of on going concern to voters and *some* parts of the developing blogosphere but not emphasized much by *most* political junkies.
So FISA is a more clear betrayal on the net, whereas more people are not surprising more confused about, say, the financial crisis. Didn’t Bam just engineer a miraculous recovery in the stock market? What more do we want? Give Turbo Timmy “a chance” etc. The healthcare bill seems a more clear flipflop–and that’s why I agree that it’s important to keep pointing out the “what’s the matter with Kansas” phenomenon on “the left” side of the aisle while it’s apparent.
The blogosphere also trends young and young people have simply *never* been exposed to a politics that really centered on economic issues. This is true in ongoing political discourse *and* in their educational backgrounds, which tend to center much more on post-60s social issues.
In this context, continuing to defend Bam makes a certain kind of sense. It doesn’t make sense to me but I’m not a millenial, I don’t think politics is a war you make on your fellow citizens, and I am more done than done can get with the post-60s culture war because I think we’re in much deeper doodoo than that.
Not everyone thinks that way.
Yeah…to all the Pink Floyd fans out there, google “Roger Waters Gaza” to see his incredible and well articulated stand on that issue. I’m sure they can write a song about our health care debate too. Cheerio…In response to the Hillary comments throughout, I think she’s even in more corporate pockets than Obama is or was…that’s why I voted Nader in CA.
not sure I understand your whole direction, but thanks for sharing your thoughts. the most dangerous “war” on our fellow citizens from red or blue states is the dumbing down they went through for the last few decades. It’s their obsession with Brittney, Tiger, movie stars, and yes, Sports, the new opium for the masses. Take these distractions away and you may have an educated citizenry able to respond to issues and to strike in the streets a la Paris…We’re not fighting them here…we are trying to educate. PS. glad I spent last night with my family and reading to my kids and not lines up on a cold Pasadena sidewalk waiting for a parade and a football game to start.
“It’s at the heart of Bill Clinton’s “let’s find a few things we can agree on and pass that, and not worry about this divisive stuff””
What I find tragic (Shakespeare)is the “LET’S…WE…AGREE…”
Who is the US and the WE? I am seeing no agreement on the left, independent or the right for this TAX bill. The crowd these people surround themselves with really have distorted their idea of who they work for. There is nothing Bill Clinton and Obama have to say which I will believe anymore. The only words I care to hear from our current President would be “sorry” and or “resign”.
From my limited point of view, Obama is either a liar or an incompetent. Sure there might actually be a gray area between the two explanations but, from how his action affects me and mine, Obama’s policies, approach, style,leadership….yada, yada, yada have been negative. It is not as if Obama stated he was going to make a pact with insurance companies so, vote for me. He did not say I am a community organizer vote for me so I can become a corporation organizer.
“this site spells and articulates much better than theirs.”
Spelling and articulation are not my greatest traits. I like to swear like a trucker though. Does that fuc|{ing count for something?
“‘Aw damn, Teddy, now what to do with my Sarah Palin poster?’
‘Put it face-to-face with your Mitt Romney poster, and make them kiss?’”
Hm. Definitely need to sharpen the anti-corporate critique in time for the new R-Admin in 2012.
I am talking about re-educating politically interested young people in the “liberal blogosphere” to not follow liberal academicians in renewing the culture war on the “working class” that I saw in the main stream media and in the “liberal blogosphere” during the 2008 election.
Nice that you’ve been reading to your kids. Congratulations.
I take it you didn’t have to work last night?
“I don’t think that most progressives, suffering from the disappointment of Obama’s taking them for granted, will be much into standing by silently, while some democrats try to do rehab on her.”
The labels one wears can be very confusing. I supported HRC because I found her to be an amalgam of liberal and conservative. I liked what Obama had to say but, there were minimal specifics. I cringed when both campaigns started to slide negative. Sexism and racism are serious terms to those affected. It does not take a PHD to see that the words were going to cut deep and wounds would be hard to heal. I trusted HRC more than BO because she represented me better. I call myself a progressive but I also think that I am conservative.
I am against the war because it is not being fought to win. We beat Germany and Japan in a shorter time frame folks and those people knew how to wage war and terrorism. An army is not going to win the war unless it working as a war machine. I believe HRC had that in her. The current plague of generals are apathetic about winning and emphatic about whining.
I thought HRC had a better opportunity for peace between Israel and Palestine. The lady has more spine Obama in my opinion. However, Obama did not have to prove me correct.
Regardless, this crap is spilled milk. I like the job HRC is doing and I am extremely dissatisfied with BO. If Obama changed his behavior then, I could support him again. He might be bought and paid for – I’M NOT.
What the progressives need right now is a rallying point whether it is around a “leader” or an event. An announced primary challenge to Obama would be ideal. A Senatorial defection from the Democratic caucus. Something. In the end, what are the blogs for? There must be next steps.
quidditas said:
“… and I am more done than done can get with the post-60s culture war because I think we’re in much deeper doodoo than that.”
I think you are right. The nature of our de-linked “democracy” now is that only in the culture war issues, does any semblance of a connection between popular will and resulting legislation still exist. And these issues have been used quite consciously to distract us.
On fundamental changes to fundamental economic arrangements we are quite powerless. Witness the “reform” in health care.
We live in a country that has practiced the most bestial and brutal continuous repression of dissidents of our economic arrangements since after the Civil War. Why are there no functioning Populist, Communist or Socialist parties? Why is there no IWW or One Big Union? Why are we even afraid of the term “liberal” much less “socialist”? Why is the consensus view of American history still the dominant model in our secondary school curriculums? We live in a country where free speech is tolerated and dissent left alone but only when the latter are harmless. Only when the ruling order is really threatened does the force of oppression emerge. This is arguably one of the most unfree countries in the industrialized world.
If one doubts this thesis, then survey the urban and rural landscape…Amidst the big box stores and the rural coops, the metropolitan complexes and the rural stretches, there is no worker solidarity*, no class struggle*, no real opposition to predatory capitalism. All the organizations that arose to protect the people were exterminated in brutal battles now forgotten, and the land is absent them, they are ghosts. What we have left is a passive amnesiac people who act only within the narrow limits they have been taught are allowed. If this were not so, how could we have developed a neo-gilded age income disparity such as we have now?
* why do those phrases arouse a negative disapproval when we read them? They sound like empty leftist cant to our ears…… How did our ears get so trained?
No, their voting records were not the same. Clinton’s was decidedly more liberal. Just go to the sites that measure that sort of thing and check it out. In addition, before he became a do nothing US senator he was a do nothing state senator where he voted present on any legislation that might come back to haunt him and claimed to have hit the wrong button on legislation any one was unhappy about.
He voted present in IL on abortion rights legislation not to give others cover but to give himself cover. He NEVER did a damn thing but run for the next office all his very short time in politics.
Hillary is so much smarter, harder working, experienced, a better speaker, made him look like the dilettante he is… how could any of you have been so fooled? I am only glad I am not disappointed now. I had the guy all figured out in 2004 and what I saw made me sick. Why was it we were supposed to WANT post-partisanship anyway?
don’t you think the issue of voters in the primary getting the candidate they chose in majority as the nominee is an issue? Do you not think democracy and whether it works or is a mirage is the number one issue for all people in the US?
Hye, I am up for it. I think, with all due respect, you are making excuses for helping to nominate a man who has turned out to be nothing like what you thought. Now when people say that Hillary would have been no better I hear in my head all those republicans who knew damn well Bush stole Florida and the election and said the same about Gore.
Well, anyway, bravo to Jane for helping to kill this health insurance giveaway bill. People at Corrente and other non-approved sites may not get any respect here, but the goal is identical and, unlike Grover Nordquist, I think we all agree almost entirely on most issues! So in that light, please check out Arthur Silber’s essay on creating coalitions.
Here is a snippet:
Teresa @ 294:
“Clinton’s was decidedly more liberal.”
4400 dead American servicemen and women, and probably, several hundred thousand dead Iraqis who had nothing to do with 9-11, would, if they could speak, surely disagree with you.
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/215996
That exchange you had with the screaming woman starts at 25:50 in the video.
Parachute @ 289L:
I appreciate and respect your honesty and candor in saying that you supported Clinton because you found her to be an amalgam of liberal and conservative.
Speaking as a progressive, after 8 years of George Bush and the miseries he and his cronies have inflicted on us, I didn’t want an amalgam of liberal and conservative, and neither, I believe, did most progressives, nor, for that matter, I’d hazard, did a strong majority of americans who voted in the 2008 general election.
The conservatives, imho, got it ALL wrong, and in many cases, they lied like rugs, as they were doing it. I’m not interested in meeting them halfway nor anything like it, and watching Clinton currently sucking up to the pentagon, it’s difficult to know with whom to be more disgusted; she herself, or Obama for doing rehab on her.
In fairness, Obama, the great leader, was mentored by Daschle and told to run for POTUS before he created a voting record that could be discussed openly in the campaign. So, the great leader followed orders to make sure we couldn’t know where he stood on any issues.
There’s video on the FRONTLINE website with Daschle explaining his teaching sessions with Barack.
Molmstead @ 281:
The question about Petraeus was sarcasm. Sorry for the confusion.
As for things being different if Hillary had gotten in, or if she GETS in, in 2012, I would have to disagree with you. A mid-east war could certainly happen on Obama’s watch, by accident, if nothing else, but I don’t thing he would actively plan, and work, for it to happen.
OTOH, as I pointed out about Clinton, she is hand in glove with Israel and AIPAC (not to mention, Joe Lieberman) and Israel is the country in the mid-east that most wants us to stay in Iraq, and which would dearly love to see us involved in a widespread war in the region. I’m afraid that if she had her hand on the trigger, we’d have the policies of George Bush and the neo-cons like Cheyney, Wolfowitiz, and Perle, etc, coming straight to fruition, instead of Obama’s dithering around about ending them, including his escalation in Afghanistan.
I’m not optimistic about our getting out, but at least, to date, he hasn’t used the dispute with Iran as a pot for mixing up a new batch of the same koolaid that bush sold us, with Hillary Clinton’s help back in 2002, and continuing with her help in sustaining it for nearly all of the next 6 bloody, expensive, years.
Jane, please let tanbark have your site. He knows so much about the inner workings of people’s brains and gov’t.
MMA was passed in 2003 not 2006.
When does that working class PUMA hag start screaming at you on CSPAN, Jane? I’ve watched the tape over and over, but the screaming never happens. Shade the truth much, dear?
Oh, and I don’t have a hangover from the primaries. But then again, I didn’t drink what you drank.
I wonder has anyone read the article OBAMA ROYAL SCAM AND THE IRON FIST RAHM by FIREDOGLAKE BMAZ.I just finish reading it at http://wwww.commondreams.org All I can say is I get it now,but we have been sold out by Obama and Rahmn that a fact. So there is not any doubt in my mind what we have to do now. All progressive groups have to unite behind some common themes. For example we need to start looking for Obama replacement period. At the same time supporting those candidates who are progressive and replacing those who are in the way. So far we have five DEMOCRATIC SENATORS,BLUEDOGS and some REP who can to be removed. This story should be sent to all DEMS and OBAMA. He and we have three years let us use them wisely to defeat this traitor.