Many have asked if the progressives in the House will stick together and keep the health care bill from passing if it has mandates but no public option.
My answer is: it depends.
There are probably 8-12 who would like to, but nobody wants to be the final vote to kill it. So, it becomes a function of how many Blue Dog/ConservaDems vote “no.” About two months ago I estimated that the number who think they will lose their seats if they vote for this bill was about 28 or 29, and getting bigger every day. The turnout in the November election panicked them all, and the Parker Griffith defection was the first public sign of that.
Those with well-funded opponents are going to be especially nervous right now. And it’s interesting that they only represent 17 of the 39 “no” votes against the health care bill on the first House vote:
Those who are the most nervous are the ones elected in 2006 (blue) and 2008 (green) on waves of high Democratic turnout, who can’t count on that this time around. The red over the “D” indicates it was a GOP seat before the incumbent took it over.
The Waxman-Markey vote was something of a bellwether, because it shows who wouldn’t flip their vote no matter how much pressure leadership put on them. It’s hard to say who was allowed to vote “no” once they thought they had enough, however, so as not to put the seat at risk.
The last column is the PVI, which shows how Republican- or Democratic-leaning the district is relative to the rest of the country. A negative number indicates that it is strongly Republican, a positive that it’s Democratic. Those with the highest GOP PVI, like Bright and Minnick, are going to be looking for tons of pork to bribe their district, so keep your eye out for handouts that benefit their districts between now and the vote, because that’s what conference is going to be all about: bribing members to vote for the bill with pork. That’s how Rahm has passed everything since NAFTA.
I’m frankly not sure how they hope to hold this thing together, because the one thing members fear more than anything is losing their seats. Rahm never worries about the progressives because they have no financial base and they’re in strong Democratic districts, so they risk a lot less voting for a bailout than those in close seats. This time around, there may be enough progressives who are willing to join with the Blue Dogs and vote against a bill with a mandate, but no public option alternative, to push it over the top (or under the minimum of needed votes, as the case may be).
Eric Massa made the strategic decision to vote “no” on the health care bill the first time around because he satisfied both sides in a Republican-leaning district: liberals and conservatives who thought it was too “corporatist.” The Democrats in the House know that they are looking at a 2010 bloodbath over this vote, and neither progressives nor Blue Dogs will pay a price for voting “no” on a bill that forces Americans to pay almost as much to private corporations as they do in federal income tax, with no public option as an alternative.
Update: If I wasn’t clear, this spells out how progressives in the House get the numbers, and the clout, to control the destiny of the bill. They become in effect the Senate “centrists,” without whose support a bill cannot pass. If they can’t get a public option because Emperor Lieberman will not vote for one, they should demand the withdrawal of the mandate.
For more background on pulling the mandate out, see Jon Walker’s “Best Way To “Fix It Later” Is With No Individual Mandate Now.” If they want to punt on the public option, they should punt on the mandate too.




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The Dems starting to retire predated the party switching by Griffith. His move was only slightly more visible.
Any of those on the list with liberal primary opponents?
Could it be that Ds just don’t represent anyone anymore? Just seat warmers during R meltdowns.
all democrats should lose their seats to pass this insurance industry dishonest policy
Health industry honchos poised to make a bundle
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/health-industry-execs-poised-to-make-a-bundle-2009-12-29
Bob Herbert: A Less Than Honest Policy
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/opinion/29herbert.html
Nah, Ds represent Aetna and Xe and AIPAC and all sorts of wholesome folks!
They don’t even seem to be good at that. A lot of flailing around.
Good Morning Jane. Have I thanked you lately?!
Yes. And the most disgusting feature of the whole scene.
Oh! If ONLY they had a heart AND a brain to guide their actions in that private-issue “Wonderland” of theirs!?!
The rahms out there probably think we must be losing our grip but, inside, it feels ever more focused on what is right and just in this one fragile world we share.
Lead on, Jane. Just call me a hopeless romantic realist.
never. give. up.
Please forgive my stupidity right now. Where’s the Republican version of HCR that saves money and limits powers of the current insurance industry? Why would the R’s take over the D’s seats? Why will people think the Republicans do a better job? Sorry, it’s probably just my oatmeal head, but I’m just confused. Again.
Any recent poll data showing trends in the voters as the details of hcr get spelled out?
you funny
The only thing that Rs have to do to get elected is wait for Ds to be stupid.
Some voters prefer their conservativism undiluted and wingy.
How many votes are needed to pass it in the House? Hit that number. Compromise no further to get more votes. Getting more than the absolute minimum number of Yes votes means compromising more than necessary weakening it further.
Well, I wasn’t really trying to be. Neither side of the aisle seems to be able to push anything through that is beneficial to us peon citizens.
And, eCAHN, both sides are stupid. All the time. It seems to me, anyway.
Wondering that my own self….
Well, yes, that may be true. But back to my real question. There must be a reason that Jane is going to such lengths to put together spread sheet analysis like the above if she thinks the Dems should keep a majority so that they can affect positive change.
that nasty balancing act can’t be so easy as it appears sometimes to the purists among us… still… is it truly that hard to have a career STANDING for something outside one’s own personal gain and love of self-serving pomp & ceremony? When you lose/toss your life goals, or finally have to admit you had none to begin with, how much fun is THAT?! eh?
I know.
end of pity-party sermonette….
there are some good guys & gals out there still. cultivate them, but watch carefully what they do.
But Mary Landrieu’s already said that any House effort to make the Senate bill less horrible will cause her and the other insurance-industry Senators to vote it down, so it’s either the Senate bill as is or nothing at this point.
@Jane
I notice Rachel Maddow has kept away from mentioning the health care fight within the Democratic party and only brought Howard Dean on after he backed off on the “kill the senate bill” position. If she mentions health care is all about those evil Repubs. Also I have not seen you on since you went rogue (lol). Is Rachel quietly black balling lefties that don’t support the Senate bill? Did she enter the veal pen?
Just curious
Morning (((Demi)))
Okay if I stand by you? ;->
thanks for the NY Times article, every American should read it.
this bill is a monstrous sham and the average income earner like myself will be hit hard with this excise tax down the road.
I have contacted both of my Dem Senators and emphatically urged them to vote NO on this bill.
NOTHING Obama promised is in this bill.
Yes, you’re right, I should add Baird and Gordon.
Well, hell that was a short wait. What now?
if i cared a whit about that shell of a person, i’d send her a bucket of antacids.
Always, dear.
I’m wondering what’s with the Rachel bashing here this morning. Someone downstairs doing it too.
Jane….any chance of you getting on The Ed Show tonight.
And vice-versa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOKK8mAkiUI
There are reasons why progressives have time on corporate media.
Obama and Rahm must have miss the BUSH years!
If only Obama and Rahm and other Dems had learned from Bush years that no one really cares about the middle anymore. Ask CNN!
The USA is a divided nation, with both sides keeping score.
1. Progressives want a Public Option
2. Progressives do not want Cadillac Health Plans Tax
3. Progressives want people to have the power to Import Prescriptions
4. Progressives don’t really like the wars in Afghan, Iraq, and future wars in Yemen, for Oil
Obama, Rahm, and the current Washington Dems have not scored any POINTS FOR PROGRESSIVES.
Just like FOOTBALL, if you the Coach sucks (Obama) and the Quarterback sucks (Rahm) and the Offensive and Defensive lines suck (Washington Dems) guess what they need to be FIRED, and ship out of town.
Mrs. Jane Hamsher is helping us all KEEP SCORE! And the current batch of DEMS in Washington are not scoring any points for the PROGRESSIVE TEAM.
We like to call the GOP stupid, and Dumb, but at the end of the day they score POINTS for their teams.
I agree eCAHNOMICS, these DEMS don’t represent anyone anymore, they are just seat warmers.
If the DEMS in WASHINGTON STOOD UP FOR PROGRESSIVES ISSUES, they would not have to worry about ELECTIONS.
(Bush destroyed the MIDDLE, remember Bush said you either are with us or against us)
I think they can get to 218, Democrats realize that they need to pass a bill to show they can govern. I hope they go with the house’s national exchange and subsides.
Also, I posted a response to your post at the NewsDesk on Freddie/Fannie this morning.
I don’t know where others stand, but our position has never changed: we have been asking members all along to vote “no” if there is not a public option. If there’s no mandate and they want to just do “insurance reform” now and “fix it later” (like so many are saying can be done) that’s fine, but the problem with no public option is the mandate that forces Americans to pay almost as much to private companies as they do in federal taxes with no alternative.
That’s an incredibly radical thing to do. It’s unprecedented. It’s like the pre-privatization of Social Security. Think about it: if Wall Street had been successful in getting the Social Security money into their coffers and skimming from it, you’d have essentially what this health care bill will be with no public option.
A public option didn’t make it better by enough, but at least it was something so that the unprecedented commitment to this kind of radical corporatism wasn’t complete. And no, the toenail clippings to the poor do not justify it. It just offers up a billboard to bludgeon liberals with.
There’s sun shining on our new-fallen snow. Beautiful, until you remember all who can’t pay their heating bill OR get health.
A few days ago, the geese were standing on the ice jabbering about the day’s plans. One left a big plop dead-center on our car roof as she soared aloft. Mebbe I’ll send her to DC.
They won’t. It’s just that if you deprive the Democrats of a reason to promote their accomplishments, say, by passing a junk health care bill, then the voters will stay home and the hardcore Republicans will win by default.
Jane,
way, way, way o/t, but thought you might really enjoy this book. I just finished it and enjoyed it thoroughly. This man really knows his dogs, imo. (not the blue kind, though).
Harry Teague (D, so. NM) is pretty much a dream Democrat for that seat. Pearce (who is running against him) gave up what was a safe Repug seat for forever to run for Domenici’s Senate seat, which has gone to Tom Udall, a great progressive.
I am not thrilled with Teague’s votes on health care, but I think he was given a bye by the leadership. I really don’t know what his constituency supports, and perhaps he will say something we can appreciate (or not) while he is home.
They don’t need to. Progressives are kept in line through progressive ideology.
Thanks for the assist. I was too lazy to lookle. We’ve been watching tons of Monty Python lately also. Seems fitting, in fact, down roight brilllliant! ;->
You’re very knowledgeable about a rather arcane subject for most Americans, the history of actions of the board of Freddie Mac. Curious what your background is. Does your job give you insight into this? Where are you from? Where do you live?
Gotcha. I hope that is not the case. I have seen a number of commenters here saying they won’t vote next time, and I find that very sad. The disappointment I understand, the giving up I don’t
So, um, what’s our endgame here?
Are we trying to kill the entire bill? Or just exert enough leverage to make significant changes in conference?
I think that there are multiple factions; some folks are angry that neither house’s bill is single payer and just want to kill it all to “punish” Obama and the Democrats. Other folks (and I’m on this side) believe that the *Senate* bill is a travesty, and not worth passing, and hope to exert enough leverage in the House to extract significant improvements.
So again — what’s the endgame? If we work to just kill the bill outright, we need to understand that that will be the end of our relationship with the Democratic party. Good riddance, perhaps, but unless we truly partner with the less-crazy teabaggers, we will be out in the cold for a long, long time. The Democratic base will blame us when the Democrats take a bath in 2010 (which they’re going to do regardless, but still…), and we’ll basically have no friends left (and more importantly, almost no political clout).
If, on the other hand, we can lean hard enough to push the merged bill back on track to being true reform — if only marginal or imperfect reform — that will be a major victory, and one that will make the DLC Rahm Emanuel types sit up and listen.
As you can guess, I hope we go down the latter path. You may not want to tip your hand, but I have to admit that posts like this one make me nervous…
Best Way To “Fix It Later” Is With No Individual Mandate Now
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%E2%80%9Cfix-it-later%E2%80%9D-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/
Thanks for the jump-start pups. I’m gonna go stand in the sun. No excuses here, so I gotta keep movin’. Not ready to be put on the shelf yet.
“Thanks Jane” doesn’t quite cover it, but maybe you can find a niche in the wall for it. You’re the absolute best, bar none.
and a 1, and a 2 . . .
Mornin’ All
Ah, I see. We *are* trying to extract concessions — one of which is the “no public option/single payer, no mandate” concession.
That makes sense, and makes “our team” seem less petty. We’re actually demanding something tangible instead of simply acting out of spite.
Having read all the negativity towards progressives on blogs like eg Nate Silver’s in the past few days, I hope that message gets across.
Thanks for the response.
From your politik answer to my question about Maddow, I will take that as a yes and we won’t see you on again for some time.
I agree with you on he Senate bill and as I like to point out – I am Canadian and love our single payer system. I think the force indenturetude in the Senate bill that takes peoples money and put it into the pocket of a middle man is immoral.
I also don’t understand why Nate Silver things this is a reasonable action absnet a social contract, plus this is VERY expensive. I assure you, no middle class Canadian is paying 8% of there income for medical insurance.
Keep up the fight you are doing god’s work. You are a courageous lady I only have one issue but I can discuss that offline another time since it’s over several years old and seem to have been a mistake.
Good luck with the fight.
The disappointment of “I’m not going to vote in 2010″ people may be temporary. Most of those people will recant before next November, so I don’t think that will be the determining force in the 2010 elections.
What won’t be temporary, though, will be the inscription upon the Democratic Party’s banners: “We passed junk health care reform.” If you can start to imagine debates in which the Republicans start to pick apart the faults of this bill while the Democrats just stand there silently, I think you’ve got the picture.
You mean that progressives are going to have to scrape themselves off from under someone’s shoe, stand up, and actually play for keeps, play like it counts, play to win?
Sorry, sometimes I think I’ve written things I haven’t. I addes this note to the post:
Update: If I wasn’t clear, this spells out how progressives in the House get the numbers, and the clout, to control the destiny of the bill. They become in effect the Senate “centrists,” without whose support a bill cannot pass. If they can’t get a public option because Emperor Lieberman will not vote for one, they should demand the withdrawal of the mandate.
For more background on pulling the mandate out, see Jon Walker’s “Best Way To “Fix It Later” Is With No Individual Mandate Now.” If they want to punt on the public option, they should punt on the mandate too.
And all of us who are not compelled to purchase insurance are going to make it worth the Democrats’ time how, again, when the insurers can essentially print money to throw at both parties?
Answered better above
The “men and women” who have changed the universe have never gotten there by working on leaders, but rather by moving the masses. Working on leaders is the method of intrigue and only leads to secondary results. Working on the masses however, is the stroke of genius that changes the face of the world.
Napoleon Bonaparte.
If progressives want to change the USA, we must educate and move the masses.
good gawd that is good – and funny as shit (ok, not) so many of the self styled grown ups presently demonizing you fought against this happening in 05
And, of course, those of us who are lesbian or gay who happen to be partnered to a union member who has acceptable health insurance will have to pay a ton more of tax on our “Cadillac” plan because the Democrats will leave no stone unturned in screwing each component of their base.
Oh no I didn’t mean it that way at all. I talked with Maddow’s producer last week. I don’t think that’s the case, I was just addressing the point that we’d somehow “gone radical” — we’re saying the same thing we always have.
When we asked people to “vote no on any bill that doesn’t have a public option,” we meant it. Now if they say we can fix all the crappy stuff in the bill later, we understand Rome wasn’t built in a day, but don’t pass the mandate until you do that.
Very astute and, sadly, likely very accurate.
Democrats: seat warmers until the GOP can take their seats back.
I think the LGBT community and women will have to wrestle for the honor of “who gets screwed most.”
It’s wonderful to hear people cheer a radically corporatist bill that deals the worst blow to women’s reproductive rights in a generation as “progressive.”
Do you think that “healthcare reform” just spontaneously formed from the political ether? WE forced healthcare reform to come up in the first place – the People, NOT the insurance companies.
The same pressure that caused healthcare to come to the front this time hasn’t gone away and wont go away with the proper loss of the mandate. The pressure from VOTERS remains: FIX FUCKING HEALTHCARE FOR US, NOT THE CORPORATIONS, OR GET FIRED.
No YOU’RE the best.
No way anyone would give a shit what FDL says about anything without the support of everyone here.
Oh, that is still on the way. Count on it. That is what is meant by the code words “entitlement reform” when mouthed by Bush AND when mouthed by Obama.
“Reform” means privatization. Privatization means theft. Privatization also means immensely more fascism.
I have always thought that would be wiser, fairer and better politics. no PO-no mandates.
I’ve noticed the same thing and was wondering when someone was going to big this up. She must be afraid she won’t be invited to more White House press parties if she mentions anything negative.
You mean , sorta like the Detroit Lions.
I disagree with your assessment. In fact, I think it has crippled the progressive movement for a long long time. We do not need to win outright, all we need to do is prove that the Dems cannot win without us. Elections are won and lost on the margins. Hence both parties exist as (dys)functional coalitions even though they pretend they are coherent unified entities. If Dems lose some seats due to progressive defections, then they will have no choice but to start to deliver on promises to progressives to win us back. It’s really that simple. Until we pose a credible threat to the party, they will never act on our behalf. It is the same problem progressives have in Congress, they lose every battle because they are unwilling to buck the leadership to win concessions. Until they fight back and until progressives voters fight back, we are doomed to failure at every turn.
Even with a robust public option a number of people, who can least afford it would pay money they need for necessities. For people with preexisting conditions the public option, properly defined, would have been a big win.
Unless a public option approached free for people that are young and healthy it still seems we are looking at a health tax. People that say that making private corporations redistribute care to the infirm have not been poor enough to understand the tradeoff. The only way for the young to win in the current scenario is to become poor enough to avoid the surcharge. Much as people find ways to circumvent wage restrictions for Social Security, the mandate will become a driver toward an underground economy. The IRS will be asking even more people why they don’t have more money.
In a perfect world the folks that believe the mandate would be killed by the SOCTUS because it is unconstitutional would be proven right. The fact the SCOTUS has refused to hear the question of the President has the right to disappear Americans makes that an iffy proposition. If they are right about the constitutional issue then the blame for passing this bill will still fall on the Ds. At that point, the supporters of this anti-youth bill will just take their money and go through the revolving door.
“Hi. Do you remember when I did some work for you last year? Well, I was wondering…”
Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you, they need either to drop the mandate or seriously gut it (remove the penalty).
yes
I think Maddow is afraid of appearing to help Republicans so she stays away from the internal fights. But Jane just said she may be on so we’ll see.
-this to Jane-
We’re here for the duration. Count on it. We don’t believe in hiding, much less quitting.
Some time, try ‘talking’ with Sherrod.
No, we’ve never met the man. But we’ve quietly, and not so quietly, watched him for ages. Such scrutiny, when people aren’t looking, leads one to develop hunches on occasion.
No hard and fast reason. Just a hunch. From a perspective of mutual respect, who knows what is possible.
He cares about more than himself.
It’s always been there.
Good luck to all of us. ;->
The Democratic leadership has done a very good job of painting anyone that is against this as a teabagger. Even MoveOn doesn’t know which way to come down. Too bad they refuse to play the Blue Dogs the same way but that would be fighting their base.
the one thing members fear more than anything is losing their seats.
Yet they still vote overwhelmingly against public opinion time and time again.
OT Did everyone see that Rove is now divorced?
Third times the charm they say.
i hope thats a case of the rats leaving the ship. even though in obamaland hes snug as cockroach with nothing to worry about.
from reality
my biggest fear is that the WH as senate, of course are aware of the same math and they are certainly working to figure out who gets to vote no, and still get the bill with mandates passed.
Reality deficit disorder.
heh, fwiw, of course he is. only just NOW?!?!
goodgawd. talking about a paycheck being important to the -um, existence of -um tranquility among the rank & file -um…
oh goodgawd… eeeewwwwwwwwww.
Sssssnork!
You crack me up sister.
“Politics is the art of the possible- about compromise and being pragmatic”
Reid & Rahm believe it to be true, as do many others and they are all very serious persons.
Adie, I am always glad when you are here. So funny.
I’m only me and I only know what I perceive, but, I don’t think she’s afraid of much.
Some of my favorite girlfriends are here and I have to go run some errands. Keep the faith, sistahs!
Oh, you brothas too.
Oops, you wrote Rove, I read Gingrich. I didn’t know Rove was married. Now that must have been a tough job.
Profound, cutting to the issue transferring more assest to Wall Street. The political agenda prevalent today is for the banksters to collaborate with the CEOs on corporate America’s boards to steal every penny from the public coffers privatize ala shock doctrine. Healthcare is one of many bills that stacked together will deal a finishing blow to the middle class and complete and Uber dominance of the American population. The Police forces are in place.
OT The Military/Industrial complex insures its big share of budget by making enemies sin the middle east by offending and angering as many people as possible thereby defeating the peace movement. Yemen the what?
right back atcha momma.
Adie – always good to see you here. and although I’m not ready to throw Brown away, I can’t help but make the comparison as to what Wellstone would have done in this fight
of course, look what Sanders did – who knows
Just like protests did not end the VietNam war, dissension within the ruling class and decreased profitability did, we did not drive health care, rather the ruling class saw our opening as an excuse to grab even more and took advantage of our actions.
We’ll see.
p. e. a. c. e. to all ;->
What amazes me is how they can vote for Americans to pay the highest prices for prescription drugs on the damn planet and not expect any push back.
The young and healthy HAVE to pay in same as everyone else. How do you think that proper countries (Germany, France, Sweden, etc, etc, etc) get their superior healthcare? EVERYONE, young and old, healthy and sick, are in it. That is the only way to pay for a superior system. If you allow the young(er) and healthy to opt out entirely then you don’t get anything but deficits, debt, or crappy care for the non-rich.
The PROBLEM is not requiring young and healthy, older, older and ill all alike to pay in, the problem is the government-enforced profits for private insurance CEOs. Mandates are fine, so long as it includes REAL choice (public option) that FORCES private, for-profit insurance to drive down their own prices just to survive and compete.
Allowing those who are young and healthy (for now) to opt out or otherwise skate is a recipe for failure for the entire enterprise. It’s like saying that only the older worker has to pay into social security and pay medicare taxes. EVERYONE pays in and EVERYONE gets a piece of the benefits, or it is a debt monster and that paints a big “fiscal responsibility” target on it OR it becomes “welfare” and resented by those who are paying in for those that have little/nothing but themselves get nothing in return.
Like the google doc thingy. Nice.
The only reason for having the mandate is to make a public option work, preferably a public option for all available, immediately.
I don’t begrudge them a difference in style. It’s the substance, the will, the skills, the absence of “quit”, the unfailing giving of oneself for the greater good.
I mourn Wellstone also.
They do not use an insurance model. They have a tax structure that ensures that sufficient resources are on hand to deliver health care to the entire population. Their government is not corrupt like ours is.
What you’re arguing for here is the preservation of a private economic sector that adds zero value to the proposition. Why should government or anyone bend over backwards to support something that takes more than it gives?
Not true at all. The protestors very tightly restricted the movement room for the politicos. The Chicago Democratic Convention put real fear into the Democrats.
The bullshit line that the protests meant and did nothing is revisionist history that seeks to minimize and poo-poo the actual people that move the country.
Protests and protesters were also instrumental in the civil rights movement. Or is it a pick-and-choose situation? TPTB get to pick which protest movements “worked” and which “did not work” based on their political convenience?
Nixon was boxed in very tightly by protesters. The protesters affected everything and everyone, including corporations.
Amen, Praedor.
On the streets of Tehran we hear the chants of “Death to the Dictator” and we say these people are lovers of freedom. When do we begin hearing the chants on American streets, “Death to the GOP”, “Death to the Blue Dogs”?
And the war ended, what, seven years after 1968 under a Republican president.
By 1973, the anti war protests had faded into memory. I was young at the time but I remember.
I was discussing the Vietnam War, not the civil rights movement. And it was not the campus activism that moved the ball forward on civil rights, it was shrewd black leadership like Thurgood Marshall that had a grip on how to marshall power to overcome disadvantages. Compare this to the LGBT leadership today and barf.
Nixon heeded the silent majority which included the corporations that put him into office. It is revisionist to assume that the dying protest movement was decisive or even influental in the course of events.
The only thing the hippies did that was good was showed us that food could be much better. Aside from that, you’ve got a gang of pony tailed acid addled stoners who ended up being the most entitled generation to ever walk the planet, and who remain convinced of their own greatness even though the fruits of their labors have gone rancid.
That, followed by the thoroughly, blatantly illegal supreme 2000 coronation which threw our governance down the loo in broad daylight….
some uncharitable souls in the universe, such as yours truly, never forget.
it’s burned into the fabric of our history and, apparently, our future.
Marat Sade. The Marquis complains in the French Revoluttion the “the poor get poorer”. The stage is being set for the greedy corporatist to suppress the population. The economic globalization made them less dependent on American consumers. These folks want world dominance.They will let us have only what we are willing to settle for. The corporations are not patriotic.They have offended some of their staunchest supporters by destroying the economy with the last bubble.
And public reaction to the 2000 theft, led, of course, by the most entitled generation to walk the planet, the boomer/hippies, REALLY showed them, huh?
Did you all wave your fists in the air and shout “Why, you!”
That’s an interesting take.
Whatever actual effect protesters may have had behind the scenes during the D convention, regular folks watching the process saw little movement, so it was a win for entrenched power.
The Chicago D convention was in 1968. The final US surrender from Vietnam was 1975. You do the math.
If the insurance is not simply funding private companies and there are tight cost controls then a mandate that everyone can afford it is the best option possible. Like most of the Europeans have works because the government is protecting the welfare of their citizens. SIngle payer like Canada has is more appealing to me but I’m willing to make compromises. The current plan, since it has serious out of pocket expenses, on top of the initial costs will essentially make the plan useless for many. If the plan generally provided quality healthcare and benefit to everyone in the plan then those that might not like it could be persuaded.
The argument for the mandate requires that everyone benefits. Some more, some less. Thats something we can agree upon. The current mandate approach fails the test of being useful to everyone and some of the public option descriptions were not as generally useful as they could be.
My argument was not that the young should be excused and if that was you were reading then I wrote it wrong. Rather I think that something that is as onerous as the current approach to the mandate will have some of the effects I described before. A mandate with a public option that is not perceived as fair to all of the participants will still invite people to be unhappy. Make the thing universally useful to everyone or at least as much as possible and joining will not be a problem.
That’s my point.
I agree.
It is also why both parties supported an all volunteer Army.
what a deft little maneuver.
my my.
i was a little older than most of the hippies, had never smoked anything, yadda yadda, but i did wear a pony tail on occasion, definitely could have been called relatively silent on occasion, not so much now, majority?, ask Rupert Murdieokie, …
stop trying to put things and folks you don’t understand in a box!
and that ridiculous bow?
file it with me and i’ll recycle it, dreamer.
some of you folks throw entirely too much gently-used stuff in the dumpster.
“Homage to Marat”, “string up every aristocrat, throw all the generals out on their arse”
careful with that wand, sonny.
you’ll shoot yer eye out.
Germany has universal healthcare coverage by insurance companies at a fraction of the cost of the USA. I also did add the PO, did I not? The PO has been a tool to force private insurance to compete DOWNWARD in price. Ultimately, it could also serve as a means of killing private insurance entirely, or more likely, driving private insurance into a boutique, specialist arena of healthcare rather than the sole means of gaining healthcare by the people.
In any case, you seem to argue then that Germany (and even France with its still extant private insurance companies) are doing it wrong.
Same thing with most of the European systems.
I despise for-profit insurance companies. They are based on the business model of “Give me your money and in return we will do our damnedest to provide you ZIP in return!” It is the only business based on the idea that they should receive money from “customers” and NOT have to provide a service in return, except VERY grudgingly.
I guess that opens the door for Jeff Gannon.
YES! “in the round.” Any questions?
hardly. we had friends on all sides of the multiple issues, fwiw.
blessed are the peacemakers…
but not at just any price, depending on the piece you prize.
I’m just glad that there will be a surplus of nice senior care facilities left in the wake of the boomers so that access will be plentiful and the pickings will be prime when I come up behind you all.
you are soooooooooo bad :)
made ya shout.
nyah!
EXACTLY. Thanks for this. IMO, if you want to really make some noise start focusing more on mandates. Without cost containment they simply become an “Uninsured American” tax. If a single person making $12 per hour can’t afford insurance today, they won’t be able to after this bill. That seems to be by design. In fact, if you look at the Senate bill the CBO score even assumes that there will be a permanent underclass of uninsured wage earners who’s penalty money is relied upon to reach their cost targets.
A plan that relies on keeping a cross section of America uninsured and then taxing the poop out of them so “the average family of 4″ (and the wealthy, corporations, etc.) avoid taking a tax hit is just warped. As premium costs rise, more and more people will join this underclass because subsidies are tied to earnings not cost of an insurance policy. It would a far less dangerous policy the subsidies were structured like “when the average policy equals 15% or greater of a taxpayer’s total income” instead of “150% of poverty”. It would also be a less damaging policy if all penalties could be applied toward the purchase of insurance for the individual penalized in the next year.
The key to public outrage is the mandate. The GOPpers won’t go there because they are working for the corporations. I don’t know how to sell it, but figuring that out will make life hell for the insurance lobby. From my perspective as an independent that is THE deal breaking straw. I think many independents and even the teabagger types would be very receptive to a well crafted rebuttal to the mandate thing.
Good luck. Keep up the awesome work. Thanks.
Progressive income taxes are big contributors to payment for medical care in the countries you name. Mandates are an amazingly regressive tax.
At the time I was shocked that the Supreme Court didn’t allow the time for a fair recount in Florida (not being a lawyer or legal maven equal protection meant/means little to me).
And THEN years later when I found out the O’Connor just wanted to retire sooner under a Republican President, I felt raped by the decision. And the effects of the Bush years is the 200 pound cherry on top.
BTW: Minnick will NEVER vote for any democratic bill (Ok, he voted for delaying the digital TV thing – but that’s literally it). He’s a republican. So I guess this once he can be counted on for something useful.
missed the boomer generation too.
we got relatively nuttin’
but we share.
did i mention, we appreciate your work, as well as Jane’s?
calm down.
yikes. i’m tellin’ ya, settle down with that wand yer wavin’, before you hurt something or somebody you might treasure.
join forces with those you admire and/or with whom you can stand to work. (you’d be surprised)
aim.
well, KEEP aiming, jumping up and trying again.
scared? YEAH! Isn’t everybody?! especially those nits who twittered through Obama-speech-night. their twittering was a surrender of sorts. it was disgusting, blatant surrender in the face of their own fear of what they’ve done. what the future holds. they’re stumped. so they act like faux-brave garden-variety middle school thuglets.
don’t give up. got it?!
yeah. I know. You’re already trying to tackle the problems as you perceive them.
For that, you earn an A+.
just don’t give up.
if this seems like gibberish to you, fix it to suit yourself.
find someone who agrees with you and two who don’t, and start communicating.
yes. i know you’ve been doing that. i was lurking before the MSM discovered you had an audience. you’re part of a marvelous community of high quality minds and caring souls who will help pull us up out of our current messes, if it can be done.
hoping i haven’t totally lost your attention by now,
i thank you.
The current blog oriented communication of what we approve or disapprove of serves exactly what purpose? If trying to determine what is wrong, a course of action and finding a venue to express those problems is wrong then what is the correct approach?
The wild eyed hippies that you seem to know so much about effectively dominated popular culture. Rock stars as well as television shows like All in the Family and Laugh In followed the hippies lead. The TV news followed and tallied the fighting and deaths each night because people wanted to see what the fuss was about. This in turn made it easy for mainstream types to use the information as a backdrop for supporting the end of the war. Contrary to some of your impressions Nixon the silent majority did not simply wake up one day and decide to leave Vietnam. Nixon ran promising to win. Did not happen.
Revisionism cut both ways. The driving factor that forced America out of Vietnam was the draft and the little problem of having an inordinate number of deaths among officers. The fact that more and more average Americans were affected by the war because of the draft forced Nixon’s hand. Which is why we no longer do that sort of thing.
While you may be unhappy with these people, perhaps including your parents, that you lump into the pot of “most entitled” you might consider that without standing up and fighting for what one believes in those in power are simply given freedom to do anything they want.
Nixon did not leave Vietnam simply because he could not think of anything else to do that day. He left because of concerted political pressure from those that saw it as a lost cause. Pressure that had it roots in the complaints by Americans including the dirty hippies. Anything else is revisionism.
Please, show me one place other than Rham’s talking points that proves people won’t buy insurance if it’s affordable. It simply isn’t true. Everyone I know from young to old is worried about the lack of a safety net. To assert staying on the “emergency room” plan is attractive to ANYONE is bullshit. It’s just marketing. They brand the permanently uninsured who’s penalty tax funds the thing as “free riders” and all of a sudden they aren’t screwed – they’re SLACKERS. And who DOESN’T think slackers should be taxed all to hell to punish them for their freeloading ways?
Yup, I’m sorry I didn’t shout louder when Rangel started talking about a draft, would have gone a loooong way towards limited the futile war we are engulfed in.
thanks. pleased to make yer acquaintance.
a 1 – 2 punch of sorts.
Once the bill is cleaned up in conference (that is, a public option is put back in or the mandate is removed and the financing is modified), all Harry Reid or Obama needs to do is convince the Senate conservadems to vote for cloture on the final bill. The misnamed “moderates” don’t actually need to vote for the bill, but it should be possible to convince them to let the vote go forward, particularly since they have already wrung all possible concessions out of the leadership.
I like that.
It’s like the turtle that won’t stop trying to cross the road. Sometimes they actually make it. That’s one reason why there are still turtles in the universe. d’Oh!
That’s what the
repugsRepublicans have been doing seemingly since forever, while the Reid-ish Democrats roll over and say, “gosh darn. i wish they wouldn’t do that.”carry the banner forward and place it firmly.
do it again, if and as necessary.
yeah, i know. i’m a simpleton.
try it, or don’t waste my time explaining why you didn’t bother.
Whenever the boomers are challenged, their self esteem takes a hit, and we’ve all got to take a break to help them work through that.
Each generation needs to know when to shuffle off of the stage.
heh heh
bye bye, for now, and i don’t shuffle.
u wanna puff up that personal image a little more, that’s o.k.
somebody’s gotta do it.
it’s in our nature.
Sure, but only the bottom don’t pay in at all. The young do not skip on their taxes, regardless of progressivity, simply because they are young (and/or healthy). My point was that you cannot simply allow the young and/or healthy to opt out of helping to support what should/will become universal healthcare. All for one and one for all – NOT “I got mine so fuck you all”.
That last is the GOP way.
Your courage in this area is surely an example for all.
Which, by the way, should not be as easy to effect, in the same (proudly Democratic) old-style corrupt machine politics fashion as it just was in the Senate.
From the Senate floor debate on Wednesday, December 23rd:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2009_record&page=S13833&position=all
No, the point is not “I got mine so fuck you all.” The point is “I’m being fucked by being forced to give my money to a corporation while only becoming being poorer in return.”
Mighty fine Re-pub judicial ethics she got there, huh?
There, fixed it for ya.
The GOP way is to make individuals responsible for financing their own health care rather than socializing that function, preferably to business or the rich.
I 20 years, sure, I’ll be doing my shuffling.
Exactly, I am so sick of hearing people won’t purchase insurance because they don’t want to. The people I know who don’t have insurance would love to have it. Affordability is the issue. What’s going to happen when people have to buy insurance instead of food for their children?
Jane, is there a “sliding scale” among the Progressive Caucus [ones who pledged to vote "no" if there's no PO.]? I.e., are there some who appear more committed to this than others?
I ask because since 2006 I’ve donated through ActBlue to a number of folks who are now purportedly with us. Naturally I’m getting end-of-year pleas for contributions. If I’m gonna cough up any $$$, I want to be sure it’s effective. [Although at this point, any $$$ from me is going to be more like $.]
I don’t want to get fooled by the likes of McNerney again.
Suggestion: could you add a link to your diary to the Progressive Caucus/pledged to vote “no” w/o PO post? I, at least, would find that helpful.
For profit insurance is the most inept, indirect, costliest way to finance health care. Forcing individuals to pay for private insurance is unconstitutional and does nothing to solve the problem.
The rationale for the IM is that insurers need the expanded base to be able to implement business practices reforms such as no recissions, no preexisting conditions, no lifetime caps, etc. But that’s bullshit as well. If 20% of people do not have insurance, and some small fraction of that would fit into the above categories AND the overhead/profit rate of insurers is 20%, then the money is there in the current system for honest business practices reforms.
Jane: WI-8 was Republican (Mark Green) before Steve Kagen won in 2006.
We may not agree on the hippy thing but on this there is no disagreement.
If we’re not careful, we might find ourselves agreeing with Grover Norquist.
20 years?
I still can do around 50 pushups at a time. My wife and I sometimes get younger folks coming up and complementing us on our dancing. Of course it is that goll durn hippy dancing but there you go.
Even foolish boomers can still have fun. Shuffling occurs when you decide you’re old and act accordingly.
Boomers are going to have to pay triple for their pre-existing conditions. We are not going to be in a position to afford the mandate. If we have employer plans, they are going to be gutted with the Cadillac tax, and the co-pays and deductibles will come out of our budget for essentials.
It’s not our egos that are the problem. It’s our lives.
Yes but marcos is against the mandate and private insurance in general. (see 139)
He’s just not overly fond of the shuffling hippies that wasted their time protesting.
Perhaps if the boomer could just walk faster.
SPOT ON COMMENT – It is the combination of a mandate with a federal tax that goes to pay part of the cost, with no cost control that forces the corporations to not just absorb the federal tax monies into profit by raising their premiums.
Joe L should be told to write a Medicare at 55 option – without that, the only reason to pass this bill is only the fact that this bill spends a lot of money, so re-purposing that money in a future subsidized Medicare at age zero buy in bill will be easier to show as major deficit reduction that can be passed via the 51 vote budget process.
I availed myself of the actblue box over on the right there. I’m just kind of done with the back and forth amongst the slimeballs in congress and the WH. What lie do we have to sell today? Who can we feed to the corporations? Can we sucker our base on this one too, ya think? What’s the angle?
Kill the bill. Take the POS out and shoot it. Why do I care if dems are seen as unable to govern? As far as I can tell none of these ridiculous clowns are. These people are not representing us. Sanders and Paul are mascots, Obama is America’s Top Model. Clap clap clap, oh what fun!
No, a negative number means that it’s more Republican than Democratic. A large negative number, say -16, indicates that it’s a strongly Republican district.
At least, that’s the definition of the Cook PVI.
The Democrats in the House know that they are looking at a 2010 bloodbath over this vote, and neither progressives nor Blue Dogs will pay a price for voting “no” on a bill that forces Americans to pay almost as much to private corporations as they do in federal income tax, with no public option as an alternative.
That’s the key. When the R’s tell you they’re going to run on being against health care (and presumably on the economy being bad) and the D’s tell you they’re going to run on the R’s trying to repeal health care, someone is wrong. Since all the current signs say big losses for the Dems, and all the historical signs (given the ecnomy) say big losses for the Dems, and they’ve already lost a big chunk of the base for this election, and they’ve working on alienating the rest, it’s pretty foregone conclusion that the Dems go in the tank this go-round.
What I am trying to figure is how they’re holding the House together. What on earth are they saying? (I’m curious, not concerned.)
(I can’t muster any mad here simply because the administration has been doing screw the base (hell, screw the country) since about June, but everyone has been too distracted with health care to notice. With people like Rahm doing political strategy (as in ‘NAFTA was great for the D party!’) then the WH’s political prospects situation would be somewhat better if they actually poisoned the Koolaid.
But then, the WSJ story was a deliberate play: RE seems to want to push off the base, which is a variant of the previous strategy. Talk like a liberal, and then immediately turn around and tell conservative outlets you’re one of them, followed by proving that. (‘Bump left, go right. Bump left, go right.’) So presumably they’re going to the news outlets and telling the reporters that liberals are pissed so this is a great bill, but how does that play in the House? Going to the libs and telling them they’re finished if they vote against, and then going to the blue dogs and telling them that liberals hate it so much, they have to vote for it or they’re doomed? ‘Air of inevitability’-style like the Iraq buildup?
I mean, assuming they pass it, we’ll get the inevitable Times beat-sweetener story about the brilliance of the WH political operatives, which will turn out to be completely wrong and full of lies, it’s like admiring the Rube Goldbergian device you just completely for pushbutton suicide. ‘See! I just push this button, and that buzzes the hamster who spuns the whell that causes the thingamajig to roll over the doohickey, and the doohickey goes WHAM and drops that giant whatchamacallit, and that slams the lever down right there that fires the bullet right into my brain. Is that cool or what?’
What I can’t figure is the psychology of it. I can grasp the logic: 1993-1995 was the greatest moment in Democratic history, and 1995-2001 was pretty damn awesome what with R’s in Congress. 2001-2009 was awful because the policies were right but the wrong Republicans were in charge. (Or something like that.) Never mind reality (a very modestly successful start was followed by the long setup for disaster). But do they believe in their hearts that the whole thing was just an accident? Friends and neighbors are pissed-off Republicans, so gotta make them happy? As long as you take care of your pals in finace, you can get a job afterwards no matter what happens, and boy, that pre-existing condition stuff is annoying? All those people complaining voted for Hillary & Nader anyways, and Rubin thinks this is great?
I’m right back in state induced by the Bush administration: ‘What incredibly stupid thing are they going to do today? As terrible as it is, this should be really funny.’)
max
['It's a genuine head-scratcher. You'd think someone talented at leeching the public purse would have some sense about wanting to continue.']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtGrp5MbzAI
I don’t believe that had anything to do with our current situation. To me it looks entirely set-up and phony.
I only wonder why in the world the DCCC gave him any money in the first place.
Which means we need conference members who can take the ” ‘We want the Public Option, but if not that then ‘There should be NO Mandate’ ” position.
Who in the House would best fit that bill?
What do we need to offer in the Senate to get them to go along with that?
Brown should finish his re-importation of drugs bill with McCain. We need that to get done soon, while the fires of HCR are still burning.
Link the individual mandate to the public option!
NO INDIVIDUAL MANDATE WITHOUT A PUBLIC OPTION!
The corporatist way is to protect the monopolies one or two insurers have in each state, so they can charge whatever they want (almost) and this makes it impossible for some folk to afford any insurance.
That’s unacceptable and we need reformation to correct that to allow competition and/or some way for everyone to buy decent affordable insurance that works for them.
Simply mandating that everyone buy insurance doesn’t solve the problem of affordability or making it ‘work for them’. Many of the current reform bill’s measures help ensure all insurance works properly and the mandate requires everyone to buy. What’s missing is competition to keep prices affordable.
The current measures in the reform which control individual costs (which help avoid bankruptcies) are a bit arcane and probably allow insurers to get around their harshness. I wonder if there is a trade to be made which would make the Public Option more appealing in conference.
Who here is for private insurance? A show of virtual hands?
>crickets<
Laughing so hard can’t breathe
inhaler stat!
Yay, Times beat sweetener!
If it’s a good idea here, it’s even better said directly to him. He’s probably biting nails right now, and would appreciate some positive feedback to counter the food fight that is D.C.
you don’t know me well. you don’t even guess close to target. stick to what you know. you’ve made progress there. don’t cave out of annoyance with an old biddy.
fwiw, i’ve never been in “that” sort of demo. can’t ever remember ever shaking a fist at anyone. go figure.
i did one time, quietly, via low-key background methods, get a whole small community to disgorge about 800+ fine citizens regularly into school board meetings month after month one year, first to find out for themselves if there was malfeasance a-foot, thence to make up their own minds to throw the bums out on their collective cans. but i digress into irrelevance as i age.
still, that school gig was almost fun. signal of disapproval of the school board’s actions was a simple strip of red ribbon, – at Christmastime. it wasn’t at-all fair, heh. but we kept running out of the little slips in our little sweatshop, and there were soon 100s of the things showing up everywhere the board looked.
i’m a wimp. you don’t have to be a wimp to cause things to happen. you’re a very talented person. do your own thing, sport.
Thank You.
If any of the bluedogs keep their seats whether they vote for healthcare or not, it will be a sign of the demise of our Country.
If the people were smart whether any of them voted for or against the present healthcare, would not keep them from being voted out in the next election.
The past Year should have shown us that those of both parties are useless and don’t have the Country or the people in their interests.
But I know the fools will be re-elected, and we will be as bad if not worse off after the next election. The American people don’t have the smarts or the will to clean house in the Congress, so they deserve what they get.
i’m sorry you have such a low opinion of self-worth. i can only assume you feel you earned it. keep it. and leave us the broom. you may let yourself out.
Good point Jane -
Since the BD’s are the ones with nothing to lose, being statistical toast either way, they should be the “Progressive Coalition” with the most clout, and the tip of the “NO STRONG P.O – NO PERSONAL MANDATE” (-plus NO Stupak, pro Drug reimport, repeal McC/F etc.) spear, as well as the firm line in the sand.
…..but, “no?”
Nancy needs to find that (other) pair she so seldom flashes and twist some arms. The senate should be the rubberstamp, as they only need 51.
There has to be a technically possible hard line remaining.
The big message needs to be that We know there are no parties, only Corp. vs the People.