Libertarian Michael Ostralenk of the Campaign for Liberty helped put together the coalition that signed the December 2 CAF letter opposing the Bernanke reappointment until the Federal Reserve had been audited. It was signed by myself, Robert Borosage, Dean Baker, Chris Bowers, Adam Green, James Galbraith, Tyler Durden and Tiffiniy Cheng (who blogs over at the Seminal today).
It was also signed by Matt Kibbe of FreedomWorks, Duane Parde of the National Taxpayers Union, Larry Greenley of the The John Birch Society and yes, Grover Norquist.
He writes today of the hostility that greeted my letter with Norquist that called for an investigation before more funds were allocated to Freddie Mac (which happened the following day), and compares it to the response on the right that greeted anti-war libertarians:
At least the attacks on Jane from the left, which I will call the Establishment left are for the most part not as bad (yet) as the attacks by the establishment right against the libertarian and paleo-conservative right during the second gulf war. I have not seen her called a traitor or unpatriotic but its interesting to note that the establishment on both sides of the aisle share mostly the same perspectives on the ‘how’ of politics and they both have similar means of either dismissing voices outside of their mainstream or of attempting to co-op them.
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The Obama Administration and their allies in Congress are not socialists as they are commonly derided as being by the right wing press. At least not in terms of the policies they have been promoting to date. If the medical reform bill that just passed the Senate is any indication of their polititcal preferences, I would have to use the word ‘corporatists’ with a liberal bent to better describe them. They don’t call for State control of the means of production, and they obviously do not take kindly to a free market or even a freer market, but they support establishing significant government control over business and labor in collussion with labor and big business interests. Its nothing new, its pretty much a continuation and expansion of the policies under Bush the Younger.
He’s right that the corporatist politicians who dominate both parties are equally hostile to grassroots activists on both sides who challenge the money train. But I would argue that Robert Cruickshank’s response to Glenn Greenwald was correct: the right, whose numbers are relatively small and whose views are generally far outside of the main stream, has dominated politics for the past 30 years because they made an alliance with the corporations. It’s only natural that Democrats have sought power by replicating that model, even at the price of destroying the illusion that they’re the “party of the people” and fracturing the support that put Obama in office.
The Democrats are trying to secure their political ascendence by tying up the money, no different than Tom DeLay did. But whereas the Democratic Party represented a net to collect and unite those disaffected with the kleptocracy of George Bush, the actions of the Democrats since securing the White House this time around have dimmed the hopes that the Democrats present a real alternative.
The Bush Republicans flogged social issues in order to obviate the need for populist economic measures. They satisfied the base by treating them to a banquet of God, guns and gays while they looted the taxpayer trough. The Democrats, however, are making a sacrifice play on social issues and enabling corporatism by triangulaing against their own base. Thus, so-called “fiscally conservative” Blue Dogs can justify a radical vote forcing people to pay almost as much to private insurance companies as they do in federal taxes because it strikes a blow against pro-choice women. Likewise, the White House positioned themselves as “centrist” after the widely popular public option was dispensed with, simply because it was something “liberals” seemed to want too.
What they’re forcing, however, is a situation where there is no place for populist liberal discontent to rationally go. The Democrats assume that the “base” will stay with them because the President is popular and the GOP is worse, but the GOP was never able to achieve the kind of raid on the public sphere that the Democrats are enabling in the health care bill. Social Security privatization was defeated because the Democrats joined with unions, blogs and other liberal institutions to oppose it. The Republicans were never successful in channeling Social Security taxes into the coffers of Wall Street.
The annual individual contribution to Social Security is 6.2%, to a maximum of $6,621 per year for someone making $106,800. But the health care bill passed by the Senate mandates that 8% of your annual income be channeled to private insurance companies, and the cap is the cost someone is willing to pay for a policy. Thus, as Marcy notes, a family of 4 making $66,800 per year will be mandated to pay $5,243 for a policy that only covers 70% of their medical expenses. But the average cost of an insurance policy for a family of four right now is $13,375 per year.
The cost of that plan is not going to go down if the Senate bill passes — in fact, it will continue to increase at an average rate of $1,000 per year. The only difference this bill will make is that people from 130% to 400% of poverty level on the individual market (12% of the population) will get some assistance from the government in buying those policies in the form of subsidies. But that money will still go straight to insurance companies.
I understand the temptation to offer 30 million people health care. What I don’t understand is the nonchalance with which we’re about to fundamentally shift the relationships of governance in doing so.
George Bush couldn’t pull off the great Social Security robbery because of opposition from the left. But Obama has neutralized liberal institutional pushback by locking them in the veal pen, holding EFCA hostage to sideline the unions and relying on his own personal magnitism to to keep member organizations like MoveOn or the Sierra Club from making a strong move without fracturing their own ranks.
With no place to go for refuge from corporatist entrenchment, populist opposition from the left and right will continue to have no choice but to work together in order to oppose it. No doubt the demonization for doing so from party loyalists on both sides who don’t want their control of the kleptocracy to be challenged will only get more fierce.




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Cogent take. Great piece.
The Daily Hamsher, er, Kos, rec list is evidence of “only getting more fierce”
“relying on his own personal magnitism(sic)”; even magnets wear out. And his magnetism certainly is.
“What they’re forcing, however, is a situation where there is no place for populist liberal discontent to rationally go.”; have to disagree about the ‘rationally‘.
‘Reason’ says that one votes for the person who best represents their interests. If people did vote that way, both Dems and Repubs would find they no longer ‘command the skies’. Meaning the ‘third parties’ would get so many votes it would upset the whole applecart.
Too bad the SCOTUS ruled against ‘none of the above’.
I understand the reluctance of many progressives to reject coalitions with right-wing political factions, but I think those coalitions are necessary. The progressive movement is involved in a political persuasion campaign and has been for years. Progressives are making the better arguments. The progressive critique of government is a much more intuitive and accurate analysis of reality. When right-wingers like Norquist adopt the critique of the left-wing progressive movement (see Norquist’s letter above) and clarify it to right-wing constituencies, progressive ideas get one step closer to becoming progressive legislation. As much as I disagree with right-wingers, the seemingly impossible task of convincing them to consider political arguments and engage in honest political dialogue is something that cannot be ignored. Progressives have to convince conservatives that we do have commonalities. The theft involved in the banking crisis and the Senate health care bill provide an incredibly important window progressives can use to prove their ideas. Forming coalitions with right-wingers who share the progressive critique of government/corporations is an excellent opportunity to open the minds of conservatives.
I think you misunderstand some of those you call “right-wingers”. I count some very thoughtful libertarians among my friends and have had many interesting political discussions with them. Underlying some of our differences is a single assumption. That is, I (and progressives generally, I think) believe the government can act in the best interest of the public. While they (and I suspect many on the right) believe government is too corrupt to do so. Current events suggest their underlying assumption is correct, while mine is not.
The challenge for both sides lies in rooting out the corruption of our system. Then I think we may find areas of genuine mutually-acceptable compromise with libertarians exists.
However, while the pervasive corruption persists, we may find that the corruption drives more progressives to the libertarian world view than the other way around.
Best option right now for change is to see how many we can get running for office as independents, with no Dem or Repub party affiliation, and go for the anti-DC vote.
I think there are thoughtful conservatives and libertarians; I just don’t think their political ideas can hold a candle to the ideas coming from the progressive political movement. Indeed, I think a lot of conservative/libertarian/right-wing views are faith-based or stuck in myths that simply trade in the principle of government by the people for government by the corporations. In fact, the distinction of government by the people vs. government by corporation is probably lost on most libertarians. Another reason why I believe laissez-faire, libertarian ideology is weaker and less appealing to Americans is because it fails miserably when it comes to dealing with larger issues that require coordination and cooperation (global warming, food safety, financial regulation, natural disasters, etc.). I do think we agree on rooting out corruption in the system, but I don’t think libertarians or conservatives have many concrete details on how exactly to do that. In fact, I’d say their inability to come up with concrete ways for tackling corruption is one of the main reasons why they’ve co-opted much of the progressive critique of government/corporate corruption.
I’m not really qualified to make the libertarian argument, but I think you are incorrect about this. The libertarians I know are not at all in favor of government by corporations. They take a minimalist approach to government and federal budgets generally, because they do not trust the government with the money. For the past several decades our government has handed vast sums of money to private interests, particularly in the military industrial complex, but pretty much across the entire economic board based on district and state-level pork projects. This has led to rampant corruption as beatifully captured today in Tiffiniy’s post at the Seminal.
My libertarian friends and I agree that we do not have a free market economy in the United States because government intervention has so badly skewed the playing field. I believe that government has an important role to play in regulating markets (again assuming the government in question is not inherently corrupt), they believe free markets are self-correcting as long as all comers are allowed to fail. In other words, they believe the too-big-to-fail corporations should have been allowed to collapse under their own weight.
I agree with them that no entity should be too big to fail, but I think that is better accomplished via proper regulation, than cyclical collapses with serious consequences for those whose livelihoods are destroyed through no fault of their own.
I also disagree with the notion of self-correcting markets, because free un-regulated markets naturally gravitate toward monopolies that crush competition and stifle innovation. This is the biggest point of contention that we have I think. They imagine a world where this can work and I don’t see how we avoid continued repeating cycles of robber baron economic chaos.
There is a lot more to be said, but these are some of the key issues we have discussed, but every conversation circles back to the same place, a corrupt government is incapable of properly regulating anything. Their solution is to minimize the government to limit its corrupting influence. Mine is to reinvent government to make it less corrupt. As things currently exist, both paths will lead to a better place. From there perhaps we can begin again to craft better policy solutions for the public welfare.
You are right, they act as validators to a constituency who instinctively mistrust anything branded “liberal” — and vice versa.
Consequently, opposition was centered around the betrayal of liberal tropes & an attempt to delegitimize the authority of the messenger, not around the substance of the appeal itself.
I was getting way too long winded in my previous response so I thought I better break it into parts. So just to address two other points you make…
I completely agree with you on this. I don’t think libertarians have a good approach to dealing with issues that require collective action, such as climate change, food safety, sustainable agriculture policy, etc.
I don’t think we have many concrete details on how to do that either, which is why there is so much consternation in the progressive camp these days.
If by working together we can successfully root out corruption, then I really think we can work together to find acceptable comprise on policy issues. I am frequently reminded of the bible quote, render unto Caesar that which is due Caesar and render unto God that which is due God. It isn’t so much for the religious connotations, but for the idea that two systems can exist in parallel and work well together. Not everything of benefit to a society is best administered by a private for-profit entity. For those activities well suited to markets, perhaps libertarians can help us create better market systems. For those activiities which are not well suited to markets (like providing for health care, public education, and infrastructure) we can show our libertarian compatriots another more cost effective solution to the problem.
Judas Iscariot. Over on a comment thread at Big Orange. No joke.
‘corporatists’ with a liberal bent
Certainly “bent.”
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CALD&key=6998
mainly UK slang (especially of a person in a position of authority) dishonest
You’d think “Dean Banker” would be for Bernanke’s confirmation.
Socialists (Sweden, Norway) don’t call for State control of the means of production! At best, they would reserve to the State (people) the control of natural resources (oil,water), shoulder the education and health care of the people, establish a central bank, regulate the financial industry, and beyond that; 20 brands of toilet paper? – knock yourselves out!
That is really sick. And we talked about the wingnuts being crazy – seems as if the left has a few, too.
You know, I attended a Left Wing Typey Book Event, where the topic was how bad the Bush Administration was. Way too many people showed up in ripped, stinky shirts and could only mumble Fuck Him. I decided then that the Left needed to send some folks to Journalism and Law school and to put on nice clothes and use the media to their advantage to get their message out.
It’s not surprising that the Dems modeled what they saw the fewer Republicans who seemed to have all their ducks in a row achieving. Did they sell their soul to the devil? I don’t know. But, we now have authentic and believable progressives speaking on the MSM. That’s something. Wish I’d a gone to law school.
In your dreams:
The annual individual contribution to Social Security is 6.2%, to a maximum of $6,621 per year for someone making $106,800.
I pay 15%, being self employed. Now add 8% to that, plus 8.25% sales tax, Property tax, takes my tax bite to 35% BEFORE federal & state income taxes.
exactly, – dilute the Dem Brand with Independents who will form their own coalitions against all the scum in Congress.
Think Venn Diagrams:
If one is Partisan, the Venn diagram is two circles that never overlap.
If one is Principled, you can have a Venn diagram where regardless of Party, on a principle, the circles have a place where they overlap.
And I’m really suspicious when on a Partisan basis it’s OK for Obama to ask Judd Gregg be in the Cabinet, but on two specific issues, HCR and Audit The Fed, Jane is somehow “toxic” at the Big Orange.
Boggles my mind.
Libertarians are likely to ascribe fault to Government before doing it to Corporations, – and they are not really wrong about that, once you give that view a spin.
Much less have Bush’s chief warmaker, Gates, in the same job at the Pentagon.
@ Jane Hamsher
I agree. You can line up a thousand Nobel laureate scientists and have them confirm that CO2 emissions must be curbed to save the planet or show right-wingers pictures of enormous glacier melt as proof of the awful road we’re on, but those actions really amount to zilch in comparison to someone like Pat Robertson making the same case. I think it’s pretty clear that progressives need to find some way to move away from political polarization if we’re going to get anywhere.
Glenn Greenwald argues that the purpose of changing the party at the top is to convince the other part of the voters to go along with existing policies. Or go along with the wish list of the other side. Nowhere is that more evident than in HCR. A true Nixon-in-China in reverse.
And, it’s sad, isn’t it?
Baker has been one of the loudest voices in the economics profession opposing the mindless re-nomination of Bernanke.
Worse than sad.
Excellent synthesis, Jane. It deserves wide distribution.
This Democratic leadersheep is uncreatively following Rove and DeLay in attempting to corner the market on corporate contributions. Corporations love it. Both parties treat them like the only babe a shipload of furloughed sailors has seen for two years. They pay a fraction of their fare share in taxes. What they pay in lobbying fees is a fraction of that. In exchange, they reap a cornucopia of government contracts and subsidies, tax rebates, foregone oversight and lax enforcement of laws (across the board, from wage & hour and anti-age discrimination laws to anti-trust and environmental laws).
What’s not to like? Depends on whom you ask. The neurotic Chamber of Commerce, like the NRA, goes ballistic at the thought of losing on a single case or issue. It ceaselessly demands more. Main Street, however, gets less and less and less. Its taxes pile up, its basic services are cut and cut. States, counties, communities are seeing their government “wells” dry up, with no one interested in digging deeper or newer ones to replenish the supply of services that comprise modern civilization.
This Democratic leadersheep is pulling a Goldman – selling junk bonds while betting against them – when it tries to persuade us this is “the best they could do” and that they are getting “95%” of what they want. (A play on words that avoids admitting they are not fulfilling a fraction of 95% of their promises.)
The problem is that they are also immolating themselves as well as us, and only partly figuratively. No government or party base will douse the cord wood stacked and crackling at their feet. They won’t have enough spit to do the job, either. And that’s about what the base will give them when asked for votes and support in 2010 and 2012.
Okay, but how do the left/right populist alignments above lead to a half a million progressives marching on the Capitol Building in Washington? I don’t see the connection between it and organizing out in the communities to build a mass movement….or organizing efforts to oust the Democratic corporatists from the Party.
The triumph of my plan for world domination would be so much sweeter if I didn’t have to explain what a “Daily Kos diary” was.
Thanks for the clarification. I agree with most of it. I do think progressives actually have solutions to the corruption. They’ve advocated for publicly financed elections for years. Most Republicans (maybe libertarians, too) have often advocated allowing unlimited contributions (money = speech).
http://www.commoncause.org/site/pp.asp?c=dkLNK1MQIwG&b=4741359
Libertarians make a great deal of sense in some spheres. One of my faves is (the other) Scott Horton interviews on antiwar.com. His interviewees are about 3/4 lefties. Without getting together with people like him, there is no antiwar movement.
That they take a “minimalist” approach to government is government by corporations by default. For the life of me I don’t understand why libertarians don’t understand that.
VNT and phred, yesterday on a masaccio thread it was ggibson, are making excellent points which however run through these threads like gossamer in the night. There’s no place to deposit, aggregate, analyze, disseminate and in general edify these ideas.
We’re spinning…, we need some mechanism, some cloud-think-tanking that doesn’t always get reduced to circling the bowl of the oubliette towards a predictable and unsatisfying end.
Stop the waste of good ideas.
Wish I’d said that.
Many libertarians do understand that corporatism is no different than governmentism.
Right now we have:
Turkana’s Jane Hamsher is not the story. We are.
Cedwyn’s All Your Dkos are NOT Belong to FDL!
Mark Warner Is God’s snark Obama should have pushed. And Bully Pulpited.
jim bow’s Merging the House and Senate HCR Bills
Norbrook’s Kill The Bill Is Their Only Answer
I’d ask you what’s worse, but I’ve had enough today. *g*
I went to law school. It’s got its advantages, but it isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Right now, I think not being one of the typical political insider professions can be a plus. The right is rebelling against the elite in part because they see the guys in suits who have always acted better than them pulling this crap on them.
I know, but the original post had “Dean Banker” before it was fixed… I was only pointing out a typo.
World domination ain’t what it used to be, anyway. Have you seen what the world looks like these days? Who would want it?
“Most Republicans (maybe libertarians, too) have often advocated allowing unlimited contributions (money = speech).”
Seems both counter intuitive and self contradictory if ascribed to Libertarians.
excellent idea. can you picture a majority of Constitutionally cognizant and repectfull taking care of business while a minority of Democrats and Republicans play out their hate fest in a corner wearing dunce caps with chewing gum on their noses?
Let’s extend a welcome to Kossacks who have migrated over.
I don’t think not being one of the typical political insider professionals precludes looking Regular Professional. Doesn’t have to be a Hermes suit, but, I think you know what I mean, don’t you?
I was talking about putting an agenda together that others would hear.
What I am seeing lately is that both sides are rethinking. Just as progressives are thinking again about putting anything into government hands when government is so screwed up, libertarians are rethinking corporate solutions when they see what corporations do when left to their own devices. I know very few pure libertarians any more. I wonder how many are going to come to the conclusion that there is no one answer. Checks and balances make a difference. Speaking of which, weren’t we supposed to have some within our government? They’d sure come in handy if we did.
The point is to join forces in areas you agree. No need to promote the areas where there is disagreement. You know, subject-by-subject. Not a marriage, but a coalition of the willing.
It’s my understanding of libertarians that they never trusted corps any more than govts, but I don’t know a lot about libertarians so I could have gotten that wrong.
I have often commented: Do you really want to turn over your medical decisions to W? in the past 8 years. I renew my Q. Do you really want O to be the one making the decisions? (Of course, medical insurance corps are probably worse, but what a Hobson’s choice.)
Added on edit: Or would you like Prez Palin to be making your medical decisions after 2012 elections?
Yes, you would be responsible for the employer part of the contribution too. Another problem with moving people to “contractor” status.
Good point. I misspoke. Progressives have been arguing for campaign finance reform for pretty much my whole adult life (probably longer, but I’m getting too old to remember that far back ; ) What I should have said was that we have not yet found a way to get our ideas implemented by Congress. FWIW, my libertarian friends are as interested in campaign finance reform as I am. They also see campaign contributions as the root of corruption. Again, I am not intending to speak for libertarians generally, but only the ones I know and with whom I have discussed these things. My point mainly is to say we do have common ground and we should take advantage of it where we can.
It’s what the Founding Fathers did and that worked out pretty well. They yelled a lot and called each other names and in the end they created a nation. Surely we can do that to create a Progressive movement.
Yes, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that Libertarians are fiercely opposed to many of the things New Deal and Great Society liberals embrace passionaitely.
They are pathological about “individual rights”, to the point where the government is demonized as the antithesis of it.
Where do you suppose Libertarians stand with respect to health care, EFCA, deregulation and trade policy? To wit: you’re on your own
Libertarians are just a hop step and a jump from the Ayn Randroid Objectivists.
And they hold people like us in utter contempt.
OK, let me beat this drum again. Market forces in theory work because of competition. Competition is driving force, the mover. The problem here is that corporations have very skillfully learned to play the game of “Prisoner’s Dilemma.” I suggest anyone not familiar with this, especially Libertarians, goggle it. Of course there has never been a smoking gun of overt collusion amongst the oil companies regarding the price of gasoline. Why? Because they all know the rules and strategy of “Prisoner’s Dilemma.” It is the best guaranteed way of maximizing profit without having to compete.
I think that’s about the state of affairs, PaulaT.
Can the left take charge?
The Enlightenment Age has gone the way of the dodo bird. Not one of the founding fathers could be elected to high public office today.
I completely agree. We definitely have common ground with some of the right.
Also,demonization works against teabaggers too. A progressive friend who moved to rural Utah a few years ago tells me most the teabaggers he knows are Democrats and not racist.
The left sometimes dismisses rural folks as redneck or yokels. They aren’t that way at all (for the most part) and could be allies – if approached as equals with plenty that city people can learn from too.
Imagine what a coalition like that could do.
Jane is taking huge risks and making real enemies. Let’s support her and watch her back.
Seriously. Our registrations, reader diaries and comments are way up.
My only explanation is that we talk about me way, way less over here and frankly I’m just not that interesting.
There is also technical opposition to the “audit the Fed” cry – auditing the assets and liabilities and transactions is reasonable – auditing as in second guessing and reviewing the research that goes into Fed decisions is a major mistake. I am unclear as to what wall has been provided to keep the auditors on the asset/liability/transaction side of the operation.————————————————————————————
On the co-operate with the right idea – we can have common ground on fiscal sanity – perhaps pushing taxes on the rich as they push program cuts. But the “need better gov control of corporations” can never be melded with “all government is the problem” that is the mantra of the Reagan right and the Ron Paul libertarians.
Listen to some of the Scott Horton interviews I linked before you make statements about libertarians holding us in contempt. Please.
Hey, the Klan has some swell ideas, let’s sign em up!
Probably a little more than a few. The establishment left folks are definitely unhinged. It’s too bad that some people are not willing to work with others where we find common cause, if we continue doing what we’ve always done, we’re going to get the same shitty results we’ve always gotten and frankly that shit is no longer acceptable. I am mad as hell and I am not going to take it any longer.
Oh I agree. You really aren’t interesting at all. /s
Seriously, it’s about the ideas, the analysis, the policies, the tactics, etc. Personalities, not so much.
Jane who?
I listened to Jon and Wendell on DN today. I feel conflicted about how to make some kind of change we can believe in, whether we start with something and try to make it better later.
I do think that you are making an important contribution, Jane, particularly if it helps to bring more big media attention to the corporatocracy.
I think phred raises an interesting commonality betw/right and left, though I am not sure that his description of the libertarian view of how the government is corrupt is seen only in the way he describes.
I understand that the former libertarian governor of NM is scoping out NH and considering a run for president. He was not corrupt, AFAIK, and he was pretty much of a jerk on social issues, but he got a lot of publicity for his interest in drug decriminalization. And he was a big VETO man.
I am thinking he may find a lot of support in a run for President.
This really sounds pretty dumb and – in a sense probably is – but the best way to overcome demonization is not be be demonic.
There’s a lot of stuff written back in the Renaissance and Baroque about the travails of folks who had been kicked out of court ( Versailles, etc., not the judiciary ). But ultimately they learned howto make do without court access and ultimately prevailed.
We’re in a similar situation. The point is not howto reform, take back, or restore Versailles on the Potomac. The point is howto get along without it.
phred at 49 is pointing to libertarian’s interest in finance reform, which is also why I thought that unlimited contributions to parties was counterintuitive to their view of gov.
On balance, since we cannot all get all we want, an association with us is far more favorable to the realization of their wet dreams, as is ours with them.
*bwhahaha* Shhh… You might be quoted as actually pursuing world domination…! ;-)
“See… She said it right here…!”
Jane,
The hostility of some of us who otherwise cheer you on is because it’s one thing to join sign a statement along with someone who shares your overall goal. It’s entirely something else to do so with someone who wants nothing more than to destroy your fondest hopes. The latter course is the point at which healthy dispute becomes destructive Naderism.
Yep. It was our mutual opposition to the wars, the explosion of the federal budget, the truncation of our civil liberties, the takeover by the unitary executive, and the total dysfunction of Congress that started the conversations 4 or 5 years ago. I’ve learned a lot from them. I work in a state that translated Don’t Tread On Me into Live Free Or Die, then put it on every license plate in the state. There is a deep current of distrust of government in this corner of the country.
I suspect that as with progressives, there are different flavors of libertarians running the gamut from nutjob to well-grounded, but the folks I know are sane reasonable people with whom I could easily collaborate.
I actually have a lot of respect for Bruce Fein, Ron Paul and other GOP civil libertarians who got the shit kicked out of them by the GOP (which is what Mike Ostralenk is talking about) for opposing the war, warrentless wiretapping, FISA, torture and other issues during the Bush years. They stood their ground even as they were piloried as traitors and terrorist sympathizers. We worked with them then, and we’re still working with them now especially on finance issues.
They’ve always been very respectful and easy to work with.
Here’s Rick Williams blogging here last April. He asked if he could come on the site and post, I said yes, and the discussion was very lively and interesting:
http://firedoglake.com/2009/04/02/hello-progressive-leftists-a-visitor-comes-from-the-other-side/
There’s a lot of stuff I don’t agree with them on. But people are trumpeting a corporate raid on the public space that deals a huge blow to a woman’s right to choose as a “progressive triumph,” so disagreements seem to be baked into most political alignments these days.
As I recall Bernanke’s testimony, there was a law passed in 1979 (don’t hold me to the date) that precluded the audit of FRB monetary policy. I don’t agree that monetary policy should not be subject to political pressure. If not monetary policy, what? The livehood of the U.S. population should not be a matter of politics? What’s the rationale on the other side? That it’s none of politicians businesses what the economic future brings? Really??!!
Thanks for the compliment.
As usual, you are more succinct.
but not all libertarians supporting R.Paul agree with him. Certainly not on choice, and many of them recognize that gov. can serve to enhance individual self realization.
We won’t find agreement with all but 50 – 75% ? That would change everything about the American political landscape.
All great other examples for coalitions of the willing. Civil liberties & war are two great marriages between libertarians & the left.
by all means, thank you VMT!
With respect to the complaints about “Daily Kos”, I really don’t know why it is that anyone would bother with that web site. I gave it up years ago when it became publicized. Hordes of loud, ignorant fools showed up and decided together on a few overriding truths, namely that they are right and everyone else is wrong, no matter what, and that they are superior to everyone else and therefore entitled to be insulting and creepy. The site rapidly became a fundraising and PR channel for the Democratic Party even as Markos Moulitsas manipulated it into a new career for him after the dot-com bubble and his law degree didn’t work out as planned.
The site is one of the biggest wastes of time on the internet. Certainly there is a minority of people there who are reasonable, but I don’t know how they tolerate the environment they are in there.
Yeah Jane, over here, we’re just not that into you ; )
Two Big Problems there, of context and motive. Judas, if you beleive the fable, betrayed christ who was faithfully keeping his promises to his followers(either for money or a misguided sense of pragmatism, or because christ told him to). In this case it is the leader who is betraying the deciples and the REALLY creepy part of that comparison( and i dont think it is coincidence) is that BO, is not JC. Really Kos, Mother Jones, and The Nation Obama is not the messiah.
I don’t know for sure, but I would think that most libertarians would disagree with the idea that there should be restrictions on contributions. Wouldn’t they scream: “It’s my money! You can’t tell me how I can spend it!”
Our biggest success has been supporting Alan Grayson’s work with Ron Paul to audit the Fed. I do not see why the Federal Reserve should be printing money and have Jamie Dimon on the NY Fed board, yet it’s completely opaque and unaccountable to the public in any way. It doesn’t make any sense to me to say that we can’t align with people who have different visions of how government should be run when it comes to the goal of transparency, which we both share.
Face it. FDL’s one of the classiest blogs around to date, and has been for a long while…
And ending big ag subsidies. The corn subsidy is the root of all evil. Okay, well one of them anyway.
And, if there should ever be a working arrangement between libertarians & progressives in some areas, it will dissintegrate as soon as attention shifts. Too many other differences. It is not a tactic without risk.
The Farm Bill could be an absolutely incredible boon if it was properly managed.
Jim Moss has a diary on the front page!
Plugging The Wrong Side Of The Dam
Progressives need to avoid personality and focus on issues and policies that effectively implement them. Norquist advocates much that liberals disdain and economic policies that are bad for 98% of Americans. He is also a power on the right that everyone, from Limbaugh to McConnell must respect and deal with.
A targeted, mutually narrowly defined cooperation can be effective. It is the essence of coalition politics. We look to Europe for ideas on health care reform; it also has much to teach about effective, eyes open, coalition politics.
My neighbor was the pres. pro tem of the state senate. He got elected by making an alliance with all of the Repugs and about 3 or 4 progressive Dems. He unseated a long-term King of the Senate who had become an exceedingly corrupt Democrat who abused his power in many, many ways but who was nonetheless progressive on many issues.
There were some (mostly in that large family who had grown used to the favors that came from a politically powerful relative) who never forgave my neighbor for making the unholy alliance with Repugs. Eventually the corrupt man was convicted and is in prison. This is part of the story of how Heather Wilson and Pete Domenici left Washington, DC.
My neighbor says, “You have to count your votes. If you don’t have the votes, you don’t have the votes.”
I think it is very hard to get around the senators from Aetna and Mutual of Omaha. I hope the bill can be made better, but it sounds like we can’t have a lot of hope for it to happen through reconciliation.
Didn’t know about that, but it’s obvious when you point it out. (My favorite form of new knowledge is what you didn’t previously know [because you can't know everything] but having your nose rubbed in it, is so completely obvious, you never forget it.)
I’m with you on that. I think the more we focus on the cause of the problems, our respective solutions, and points of agreement the better off we’ll all be.
Stopping War efforts and cutting 50% out of the DOD budgets, would alone help make that association difficult to abandon for both sides.
Do you really think that Norquist has enough weight to pull the GOP to the left on healthcare, financial reform, et cetera? Do you really think he even wants to? The reason…and the only reason that Norquist is working with Jane is to weaken the cause of health reform and ultimately to thwart in entirely. Going on Fox and Friends to get used by Doucey and company is just the cherry on the sundae.
And more dishonest.
Did you try this tactic on the new kitty? (ducks)
I also want to make something else clear that I just hate about the Democratic mainstream and “Daily Kos” in general – the idea that Ralph Nader is an evil man for having dared to run for President on an actual progressive platform while the Party’ corporatist plutocrats did what they are doing even today, now. They are (ab)using the progressive mantle of their party’s base to get pro-corporate, anti-civil-rights, militarist legislation and policies in place into a regime that should be rightly loathed by anyone who ever voted for their candidates.
This is a game they have been playing for nearly 20 years now. And I am sick of hearing about “Naderites”, “Naderism”, etc. For one thing, Ralph Nader has harmed that party nearly not at all in comparison to how its leaders have harmed it. For another thing, the label “Naderite” is now used to silence and attack anyone who speaks out against the groupthink that produces for instance NARAL-endorsed candidates boosting legislation that attacks access to abortion across the entire population.
Ralph Nader is an egomaniac and a political narcissist who once did great things. Then he helped give us George Bush II.
“Naderism” is only destructive when not heeded. Al Gore 2000, Exhibit A.
The definition of Naderism to me is when the means to a political goal are divorced from the potential effects of those means. Call it inverse-Machiavelli if you will.
If Nader runs in Conn. his financial support will be national, and the rationality and clarity of his ideas will be mesmerizing to all who pretend to know him.
I agree. I have never heard politics discussed by as many every day people as in the Appalachian Mountains of NC.
They kept up with local, state and federal. Bring together classes and far right and left …you got yourself a real movement.Good manners goes a long ways.
Can you furnish a list of all the repeals of Bush era shit that Obama has implemented thus far, please!
Is it Grover Norquist you are quoting as saying this? Was he not a key link in the political machine of the Bush the Younger he is now trying to separate himself from?
I don’t remember this? What did I miss? Were there others besides Ron Paul? Who are the paleo-conservatives in this statement?
Is it just me, or isn’t this exactly backwards? It seems to my poor brain that they support business interest control over government and labor.
I agree with your follow-up analysis; Robert Cruikshank has it on target.
But we are facing a battle in the not too distant future with folks like Norquist over the affiliation of those populists who are floating on the debris of the great ship “Bush’s Permanent Republican Majority”. Some of those Jessecrats might find the progressive side closer to their thinking. Some of those urban ethnics might as well. And a lot of small farmers and small business owners — once they get over the seduction of thinking they can be the next Donald Trump if only it weren’t for the government.
” . . .thinking they can be the next Donald Trump if only it weren’t for the government.”
Boy, you really take all the fun out of teabagging!
Every time the left and right try to join together and create critical mass to fight entrenched corruption, challenges to the participants for being insufficiently observant of cultural values are used to break it up. Unwarranted accusations that they are somehow violating cultural tropes by doing so, even though it’s completely outside of the goal at hand, are tossed out to disempower and marginalize them within their respective spheres of influence.
So conservatives are accused of endorsing baby killing or licentiousness for cavorting with liberals, who are accused of endorsing racism or sexism (or associating with the “Klan”), even though the subject is financial transparency or civil liberties or domestic spying and they’re not doing anything of the sort. The object is to deligitimize them as community validators and preserve the status quo.
That kind of bullying does successfully intimidate some people. Others see it as a symbol of how shallow and and inadequate the opposition is, and it only encourages them.
swell, jam on
oh, by the way, I suggested you sign up the Klan I didn’t accuse you of shit.
If you want to get into that debate have Jane start another thread. I’d rather stick to the point in this one.
The corruption does not exist only on the government side. The failure of the management of large corporations to create social value or in many cases shareholder value while management takes home large bonuses and squeezes its employees is symptomatic of a deep corruption on the business side that bleeds over into government.
Ah yes, the “ego candidate” meme. Keep repeating slogans! You do it well.
This is one of the difficulties, a critical issue. I think libertarians have to essentially overlook this element.
Good point. It is not creating mythic shareholder value to pay failed executives $30 million to go away and STFU, it’s paying green mail. It is not creating shareholder value to pay executives tens or hundreds of millions in retirement compensation. It is green mail practiced by executives, their legions of compensation “experts”, and somnolent, cooperative boards on their shareholders.
Those same “experts” are also trotted out to defeat any shareholder initiatives that might impose greater accountability on managers or, god forbid, enact more stringent laws that impose greater or more visible accountability.
I take it you have never seen him up close then?
please, a teeny weeny little list does not a debate make.
It’s much easier for them to make hysterical and overblown accusations than it is for them to address the complex issues underpinning why members of the so-called “left” and “right” might band together against the DC political establishment. Bringing up the Klan for example (I am waiting for people to put the Hitler moustache on you, it hasn’t happened yet, incredibly) is silly, but it is a lot easier than saying “golly, some of the things Hamsher is writing and saying on TV make a lot of sense, and mean that I am wrong about some things.”
Left and Right are bogus enough distinctions that I’d not hazard a guess at anyone who holds either right or left positions on any one issue on any of a variety of other issues based simply on one position.
Norquist alone can make a conservative ask for his or her brown corduroy trousers before advocating a tax increase to pay for the most vital of services. Whether his cooperation in a mutually acknowledged narrow issue is sincere is an issue Jane and her peers must wrestle with when negotiating with him. Grover and I exchange few pleasantries directly.
Lol…yes it will. This thread is about Jane’s post above. If it makes you feel any better, I’m not very happy with the first year of this administration. That’s a separate question from what allying with Grover Norquist gets you in the struggle to get people adequate health care.
I’m very calm
Amen to that. The farm bill has stuck in my craw since the 70s. So much to fix so little leverage to do so…
Jane, I just want to say again that I think what you are doing is a good thing. I do believe it is politically risky, but I think there is not a lot to lose by going at it this way.
And sometimes taking a risk is the only way to change, progress, HCR. I truly wish you all the best.
Nader was evil for not dropping out at an opportune time before the election, thus giving us Shrub by statistical and Supreme Court default. The same would have been true of Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich, had they been capable of garnering enough votes to be spoilers, but not to become president themselves.
The essence of multi-party politicking, well-known in Europe, where coalitions are commonplace, is pushing the limits, but knowing what they are.
There are risks no matter what you do. Our current approach is working out, so I’m open to new methods. We will come across new challenges, then we will work on new solutions.
Yes, I have the man speak in person, but that is irrelevant. For one thing, the “ego candidate” meme – the slogan you have repeated twice here already alone – is utterly vacuous. It is an absolute attack-the-messenger personal smear and has nothing to do with anything Nader (or any other reformer on the left) ever said or did. For another thing, it is a seriously funny accusation to make. One is left to wonder if you’ve ever pondered the idea maybe that most figures on the national stage (including every major-party presidential nominee who has ever lived in any country on Earth anytime in human history) has a big ego. What’s next, will you accuse Nader of wearing a suit when he is on TV? It’s about the same thing.
But again, keep up the slogans! Something has to fill up the empty space in between real thoughts and, hey, a clever slogan can be cute.
weak, on all counts.
Grover and health care is a figment of your flapping imagination.
I can’t agree more. Fundamentally, the left-right spectrum is completely one-dimensional and is ultimately an illusory media construct. It serves to dumb down debate to a level where it can fit into very brief televised bits and pieces.
a clever slogan can be cute.
yea, like meme
I interact virtually with Libertarians and Objectivists in philosophy venues. There they lump all progressives into the “collectivists” camp.
I recognize of course there are libertarians in the mold of Bill Maher just as there are libertarians in the mold of John Stossel and Glenn Beck.
And while the “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” may be applicable in some political contexts, there are too many other far more important contexts not to keep these uber-capitalists at arms lenghts regarding what most of us would construe to be “economic justice”.
Jane, a traitor? Unpatriotic? Not. I’m happy to say that, like Michael Ostralenk, I haven’t seen her called those things, either.
The point remains: how can we fight an ‘establishment’ that has its hold on both corporatists on the right and left?
Please let me take issue with one point Jane made:
My impression has always been that it was the other way around, that first the right made an alliance with the corporations and that then the corporations started using their money to buy up, pay off, and co-opt far too many on the left.
If that’s correct, then we have to watch the campaign contributions going to those progressive candidates we help get elected very carefully, no?
More people were disenfranchised by the GOP purge of black voters in Florida alone than voted for Ralph Nader. For that matter, Ralph Nader was hardly the top draw in Florida on non-party or third party votes. Blaming Florida on Ralph Nader is like blaming the asteroid impact that killed the dinosaurs on Ralph Nader. Perhaps if Al Gore – whom I voted for, but whom I believe is serving a much higher purpose out of office – had actually campaigned on something other than the center-right drift and Clinton’s triangulation, then maybe he could have turned out more base voters in Florida.
A lot of the people who did vote for Nader in Florida, incidentally, did so because they were absolutely certain that the Democratic Party did not represent them. And it doesn’t represent liberals. We can see that today, with Saint Obama screwing liberals sideways more times in one year than maybe George Bush II managed in his first four. Why should people vote for a candidate (Gore) in a party (the Democrats) that doesn’t represent them?
The Democrats are not entitled to votes. This is something that the true believers of the Party and its high muckety-mucks have never figured out. They are not entitled to peoples’ votes. They are actually expected to *represent* people in order to get the people to keep voting for them.
That’s an excellent point and I completely agree with you. The incestuous nature of corporate boards of directors with corporate executives has directly led to the complete lapse of ethics in corporate governance.
So the basic response to my point that Jane is aligning herself with someone who means to achieve exactly opposite result that she wants is to simply ignore the point and hope it goes away. That’s unfortunate.
(earl, that reply wasn’t directly to your post)
Eli is upstairs!
Hard Is The New Evil
Creative misconstruction. Jane’s point is that cooperation among people of vastly different overall views is possible on a limited, issue-focused basis. It is worked out daily in schools, college faculties, parliaments and city councils. It is essential, if we are to have a hope of influencing political actors whose wealth is dependent on them not listening to progressives or to the needs of Main Street Americans.
It is particularly obnoxious of you to summarily not acknowledge anything that has been written front of you on the topic of joining forces with Grover Norquist. I didn’t say surprising – you’re obviously just hear to attack someone who has been held up on Moulitsas’ web site to be attacked, nothing more – but it is still obnoxious.
I do not know what was in any 1979 law (indeed I do not recall such a law limiting policy/research audits) – 1979 was the year the courts ruled each Federal reserve bank a non-government privately owned org that is owned by the banks in its area. GAO currently “audits” the Fed but I am hard pressed to understand what the hell it is that they audit! :-)
The Ron Paul Bill HR 1207 simply says”Audit- Section 714 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
‘(e) Audit and Report of the Federal Reserve System-
‘(1) IN GENERAL- The audit of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal reserve banks under subsection (b) shall be completed before the end of 2010.
‘(2) REPORT-
‘(A) REQUIRED- A report on the audit referred to in paragraph (1) shall be submitted by the Comptroller General to the Congress before the end of the 90-day period beginning on the date on which such audit is completed and made available to the Speaker of the House, the majority and minority leaders of the House of Representatives, the majority and minority leaders of the Senate, the Chairman and Ranking Member of the committee and each subcommittee of jurisdiction in the House of Representatives and the Senate, and any other Member of Congress who requests it.
‘(B) CONTENTS- The report under subparagraph (A) shall include a detailed description of the findings and conclusion of the Comptroller General with respect to the audit that is the subject of the report, together with such recommendations for legislative or administrative action as the Comptroller General may determine to be appropriate.’.”
So audit is not defined or limited in this bill.
Concerted attempts by the GOP to disenfranchise voters likely to vote for Democrats certainly lost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of votes. In one election alone, it helped make votes for Nader even more important than they would otherwise have been. That’s evil, and should be addressed by a competent Democratic Party (if there is such a thing). It is different entirely from whether a gadfly or rabbit should stay in for the whole race, rather than drop out when his or her work has been accomplished.
It is in the interest of the corporate elite to divide and conquer through a sense of hopelessness or low morale. As humane persons we all have common agreement…
The health and welfare of our families and friends, the creative hope of our visions, the practical solution to our difficulties…
The ideology of corporatism is divisive disempowerment but it isn’t a conscious plan, it’s something else. It’s some sort of feral thing…
you’re pretty obnoxious your damn self. . .how ya like me now?
I don’t advocate forming coalitions based on mutual enemies. I advocate them based on a mutually agreed political critique. I think the more my political opponents engage with me in shared dialogue the better the chances are that I can change their hearts and minds. Progressives have better ideas. I believe that. So I’m willing to risk coalitions because I think progressive politics are more persuasive and equitable and Americans will respond to that favorably. I’m always happy when someone convinces me of a better course of action. I’m not afraid to abandon one of my positions if I find someone who can convince me with a better argument, indeed I welcome that, so I’m happy to make a case for my own position. I’m confident that progressives truly have the moral and intellectual high ground so it doesn’t make sense to disengage from dialogue for us.
All the dodging about would be funny if it weren’t a serious point.
One of the reasons I registered here is because Ms. Hamsher isn’t afraid to throw in with Ron Paul or others on occasion. If somebody has a good idea, they have a good idea. I left the Democrats in 2004 and until they start to vote against the wars and warrantless wiretapping and torture, etc, I’m sticking with the Campaign for Liberty crowd and the likes of Ron Paul. If you could blend Paul, Greenwald and Ms. Hamsher into some kind of third party, I’d be thrilled.
Very very well said.
Why thanks. :-)
They’ve tried to position themselves as centrist, but are the American people buying it?
I had to leave a lot out of the diary I wrote today because it would have been far too long, and would have dealt with far too much for a diary I had not cut a lot out, but one part of it was going to be an analysis of a recent Quinnipiac poll, which categorized respondents according to the following criteria: age, gender, race, income, political party affiliation and political philosophy [this last criterion – political philosophy – being broken down into three: liberal (left), moderate (center), and conservative (right)].
When asked “Do you support or oppose allowing Americans ages 55 to 64 to purchase Medicare coverage?” 82% of liberals, 68% of moderates, 52% of conservatives said, “yes.” High marks all around.
When asked “Do you support or oppose giving people the option of being covered by a government health insurance plan that would compete with private plans?” 85% of liberals, 66% of moderates, 33% of conservatives said, “yes.” The public option was tied to Obama and Democrats, and the “yes” answers shift accordingly.
When asked “Do you approve or disapprove of the way Barack Obama is handling – health care?” 88% of liberals, 44% of moderates, and only 17% of conservatives said, “yes.” Throw out the “Obama” brand, and look at what happens. Liberals run around like they’re still going strong in the 4th hour on Viagra, moderates are less on board, and conservatives jump ship entirely.
Our problem is not that people don’t like the public option or the Medicare buy-in proposal, or that people think these proposals are too far left.
Our problem is the “Obama” brand is still going way too strong despite all evidence that he’s not what he appears to be.
Best anti-Iraq invasion essay I ever read was by paleo-conservative Srdja Trifkovic, at the time foreign affairs corespondent for the very paleo-conservative Chronicles Magazine. Unfortunately, I don’t believe his piece is there, anymore, but a copy can be found here. It concludes
And yes, the Chronicles Magazine authors caught hell from the war-lusting neocons.
~~~ModNote: Please help FDL keep within Fair Use guidelines by clipping no more that 200 words when quoting copyrighted material. Thanks.~~~
second.
Libertarians have never caught on, because they are just as loony as the Republicans.
Strange bedfellows for a very smart lady.
Admittedly, my reaction to the libertarian brand revolves around the concern I have for all ideological agendas. They are the True Believers. And as such they are often blind to the enormous complexities embedded in all human social, political and economic interactions.
On the other hand, there are the very rich and very powerful “realists”. The Henry Kissingers, DLC Democrats, the Rahm Emanuels, the Bilderbergers. And it’s true their crony capitalist, corporatist agenda is far, far more dangerous to democracy than the Libertarians.
So, I’m ambivalent about what to do.
More than anything though my visceral, intuitive sense is that progressives should pour all of their time and energy into reinventing the 30s, the 50s, the 60s and the 70s. We really do need hundreds and hundreds of thousands of folks marching month after month after month in Washington. It worked before, it can work again. I can’t think of anything that would bolster the morale of genuine progressives more.
We need a mass movement. And we need bunches and bunches of Deaniacs orgainizing and mobilizing in states to oust the Wall Street Democrats from Congress.
But that is only one man’s opinion. And naturally I have enormous respect and admiration for all that you do to try to make this a more just and humane world. So never would I try to suggest that what you are doing isn’t aimed at making this a better world. And I wish you all the best in doing what you believe will oust the Rahm Emanuels from Washington. They are without a doubt the most politically malignant and meanacing people around.
That would be a good question if we’d allied on health care, but we allied on banking.
Which is to say nothing of destructive Kerryism.
And Fox and Friends?
This is patently false. Sweeping generalizations are not helpful in any argument.
From that example, it appears that Medicare has the broadest support. But that’s not tied to the Obama brand — is that what you mean?
Blast Ralph for having that deciding vote on the Supreme Court!
So what do you think of Alan Grayson for working with Ron Paul on audit the Fed? Should he be burned at the stake?
I agree with cassiodorus’ comment @ 149.
I’ve also argued in my diary today that Ed Kilgore’s call for a left-right “tactical convergence” remains the best approach, but that anything more than a “tactical convergence” would be ill-advised. In this very post, I think Jane is explaining very clearly that she’s participating in a left-right “tactical convergence.” Why is that a problem?
If the left (which is distinct from Democrats, despite their most fervent delusions) had to sit down and shut up until handed a microphone, we’d be talking to ourselves. You either make due with what you’ve got or you go out and get it.
Most of us have no use for a right-wing D party. What’s your vested interest in perpetuating the divide-and-conquer two-party identity politics strategy?
This is the only blog i ever cared to read, much less comment on. The KOS is not my cup of tea. Dont have a clue what most of the text generation code words mean, this blog has way more intelligent than the ones i stumbled on where a girl was looking at a webcam and the bloggers were asking her to show her feet, ect. I dont know much about what a progressive is or aint, and frankly dont give a blank. i draw the line at treason against the United States or any United States Citizen, a persons life choices are no one elses business, in my book. Ron Paul has a lot of class except for His opinion on Women’s Rights, dont be too mad at him, he is from texas you know. I agree with the Libertarians on many issues, not all.
It is obvious that everyone at this site has strong affection for Jane Hamshire, and a few whom are heart-broken that Jane wrote a letter with Norquist, dont play us cave men for fools; when we saw the documentary on the sweat-shops in the Marianias Islands, we dumped Norquist as cool, and the way I see it, signing a letter with Jane Hamshire, could be Norquists salvation.
The Lanny Davis thing really kicked my ass. I LOVE YA, WE NEED MORE LIKE YOU.
While perusing the FDL video library, I remembered your appearances on Washington Journal, when I first saw what you had to say and was impressed enough with your spirit style and substance to visit your site. I am also a cancer surviver, died a few times and came back. I guess I have a different perspective than your average bear, aint two of us exactly alike. The way I see it there are 300 million different political parties in these United States, Democracy is supposed to run on consensus, right? You ARE a fascinating creature to say the least Dear Jane Hamshire, I got YOUR back, and anyones who has the class to stand up and be a real United States Citizen. Some of us take the health care issue extremely personal cause we been there.
Of course i dont want to upset any of your faithfull, hey us cavemen got feelings to. I always try to encourage those whom inspire me to be a better human being, plus our Country got as screwed up as it is because too many people of every political persuasion didnt care enough to pay attention, or speak up, for far too many years.
There are 68,000 NAMES on a Black Wall in DCK, and most of them were due to some stupid ass narcissic politician who was more worried about his false image than in any possible afterlife consequences, and we got the same stupidity going on now with the Senate version of Health Care reform, and I revere the souls who have the courage and self respect to stand up and tell it like it is, and at least try to turn the ship around before it is too late.
Didnt intend to be a speed bump on the rythum of your blogg, dont really know what a diary is yet, when i figure out how your wonderfull cyber barn-yard operates, i will do my best to send you my best efforts.
When we have a Jane Hamshire for Congress, or President or such I will Be There For You, until then I got your back.
You got any help files on blogging? i cant even make a hyphen without the preview complaining. Please forgive any spelling errors, I subscribe to the author of Waldens Pond theory of spelling correctness.
Exactly!
Medicare is not associated with Obama at all and is widely liked. High marks all around.
Insert into the question a public plan, which has been tied to Obama and Democrats, and watch the numbers tip (more liberals and fewer conservatives like it).
Simply say “Obama” in the question, and the numbers tip over, liberals love anything “Obama” and conservatives hate anything “Obama” (even more liberals and even fewer conservatives like it)
Our problem is the “Obama” brand.
No…because their overall aim is the same.
No…I really don’t. And as Jane knows, she and I share some friends in the libertarian political world. There is lots of common ground with them and other flavors of conservative political thought. But it makes sense to ally with folks who want what you want, doesn’t it?
It’s kind of amusing how much the configuration of our economy heavily favors large-enterprise. Especially so when one considers how often “small business” is demagogued as being the life-blood of the nation.
Capital already aggregates upward, but that hasn’t stopped us from trying to push it up even faster.
Being a small business owner is the absolute shits.
Gee, our definitions are different. My definition of Naderism is having a set of values that one is willing to defend even if doing so requires acting against the interests of an existing institution.
OBAMA and Rahm need to take note, this is becoming COMICAL!
The powerful are often people who in their youth have shown immense creativity in expressing something new through a new form.
Society grants them power because it hungers for and rewards this sort of newness.
The problem comes later, when they often grow conservative and possessive.
They no longer dream of creating new forms; their identities are set, their habits congeal, and their rigidity makes them easy targets.
Everyone Knows Their Next Move. Instead of Demanding Respect They Elicit Boredome: Get Off the STAGE! OBAMA and Rahm!
The AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THIS MOVIE. (HCR Shock Docrine)
(remember that is why they elected you)
IN 2012 is OBAMA GOING TO RUN AS A BLUE DOG? GOOD LUCK!
There’s a more fundamental problem with the Fed-audit issue, and that is one of the legal role of the Fed being one in which it shouldn’t even have any assets to be auditing.
The Fed’s action during the crisis sits way, way outside their mandate; save for an overly pedantic and dubious characterization of the term “loan.”
The Fed absolutely needs to have what it did audited, but it should seemingly be a temporary condition, wherein the focus is put on making damn sure the Fed never has anything again that warrants auditing in the first place.
Even if you dont do it we really need to start discussing boycotting the democrats in 2010 and 2012. Until we are ready to let the dems lose elections all of this yakety yak means nothing. The establishment dems dont think we have the guts to abandon them and until we do they are going to continue disrespecting us.
Near the end of my diary today, I wrote this:
My point was that I saw in the recent Quinnipiac poll (cited in my commetn @ 143 above) evidence that the right has done a good job of making their supporters angry at Obama.
In the diary, I wrote that we need to
Our goal should be to make Americans stop feeling good about the “Obama” brand and start seeing what Obama’s doing as a huge disappointment.
They love him, even though he’s not at all doing what they really want him to do.
We have to do our part to return Obama to the earth, where he can be held accountable for what he does and does not do.
OT: Somewhere out there in the Seminal blogosphere is the diary you asked for – re: fault lines. Glad to see you used the same idea in yours.
Obama has proven that there is a permanent government and it did not matter whether Gore or Bush would have won.
Does your definition include staying in an election with no chance of doing anything but delivering it to the worst possible candidate?
Jane,
If you’re still out there, would you like me to put up another diary with the observations I made in the comment @ 143 re the recent Quinnipiac poll, expressed a little more clearly? I can have it done within the hour.
Really? Gore was on board when the Clinton Admin was warning of OBL – do you think he would have dismissed the August PDB?
Or Attacked Iraq?
What does OT mean?
Which diary I asked for? Not sure I understand what you mean in this comment.
Sorry Jane,
But this post of yours shows that you do not understand basic political and philosophical principles. The left and the right have totally opposing views of the world and there is no space for synergy. The libertarians may not be corporatist, but are unprincipled politically illiterate people who believe that selfism is the way to go. It is an idiotic theory not even worth mentioning.
Yes, yes it does. However, it’s also worthwhile not to define like goals too broadly in the case of short-term alliances. It’s a hookup, not a wedding. As long as everyone’s responsible for their own protection, there’s little harm that can actually come from this. (As an aside, much of the initial reaction from the D partisans from Teh Orange reeked suspiciously of slut-shaming.)
Look at it like the final phase of the Robbers Cave experiment, with everyone joining forces and shifting attention from differences to commonalities. At the very least I hope it should turn down the noise a bit.
Nader could have delivered a vastly improved Al Gore in time for the 2000 general election, giving Al Gore a win. Al Gore did not respond to the exodous of progressives from the party. Establishment Democrats were completely deaf to the will of its base. So, the Democratic party lost.
Sounds a lot like what we’ll see in 2010 and 2012 if ya ask me.
OT=off topic
This is the diary:
Fault Lines of the Left and Right
You suggested I turn a comment in Robert Cruikshank’s diary into a diary. The quote is in the beginning of my diary.
Repro rights certainly appears to be a reliable wedge for the entrenched establishment to keep women in their place.
That wasn’t the only possible outcome of the election. If we’re talking about 2000, there was the additional chance of the Green Party getting 5% of the popular vote and the resultant access to public campaign funds.
This was independent of who the next President turned out to be, which wasn’t really an outcome decided by the election.
OT means Off Topic. It’s a polite way to introduce a subject not included in the initial post.
Eventually, the US would have been in Iraq.
My read is that Bush knew something was going to happen but did not intervene because the upsides were so attractive, but I’m not sure that their knowledge was such that they could have successfully intervened had they known and been so inclined.
That was not the question. It was a choice between Bush and Gore in 2000.
With the amount of petty infighting in the mid decade instigated by trotskyites brought into the Green Party with Nader in 2000, I could only imagine what that would have been like had there been tens of millions of dollars at stake.
You all lost that election, couldn’t acknowledge the Democats’ role in that, lashed out at the fledgling Green Party and practically destroyed it.
Here we are ten years later and the differences between the Democrat government, the one that passed Stupak, and Bush II would fit on one side of a cocktail napkin.
Shameless!
I would appreciate an answer.
And I lashed out at no one. Nader or anyone else.
Your comments are reasonable but not convincing in the current context. Norquist isn’t teaming with Jane for any other reason than to make it harder for this White House to work on progressive goals…the exact opposite of what Jane wants. And much great harm can come of it. When Nader leapt on his donkey and charged the windmill he didn’t think twice about the possible results and he didn’t spurn any tactic in pursuit of his principles.
Her direct shot at the current health care bill at the side of Steve Doucey (the thought of it still has me shaking my head in disbelief)unfortunately reminds me of the similar forays Nader made into those sorts of venues. And again, unfortunately, Jane allowed herself to be used in the same way.
And a note to some above…I don’t think I’ve ever posted to DKos and am certainly not part of that community.
Thanks! I remember your comment re tea partiers and asking you to put it up as a diary, but I did’t see the diary! Sorry, I’ve been thinking and writing more yesterday and today and missed reading everything I would want to read. Thanks for the link.
Comment #173 and you drop in to talk smack without reading any of the thread? Ignorance must be bliss.
Jane,
You’re not a libertarian. You abhor Grover Norquist, who also happens to NOT be a libertarian. You’re being defended by FreedomWorks (Dick Armey’s racket). Did you notice that the letter was signed by Tyler Durden (Ed Norton’s schizo, nihilist alter-ego in Fight Club)?
“What they’re forcing, however, is a situation where there is no place for populist liberal discontent to rationally go.”
I disagree, but you’ve proven your point. Come back to us, Jane. We need crusaders for real reform, not an Orly on the left.
I do not believe that events would have unfolded remarkably differently had Gore been in office rather than Bush. Those aspects of national security policy are not subject to the democratic process. We have no way of knowing that what they tell us is true when it comes to any of that.
Heh. Don’t know which is worse to be called, Orly Taitz or Judas Iscariot.
So you believe that Gore would have given short-shrift to the PDB, and would have invaded Iraq?
“Norquist isn’t teaming with Jane for any other reason than to make it harder for this White House to work on progressive goals…”
Ok, if you won’t list all the repeals of Bush era shit that Obama has implemented thus far, will you at least list the phantom “progressive goals” you mentioned above.
If you want to make the party loyalists on both side absolutely scream, you can issue a public statement, along with Norquist (e.g.), calling for electoral cooperation in 2010 and beyond.
According to Chris Bowers in an article at OpenLeft called
Talk Me Down from Contributing to Rand Paul’s Campaign, libertarian-Republican Ron Paul votes with progressives about 23.5% of the time.
Now, I must say that, because progressives and libertarian only agree about 1/4 of the time, and not 3/4 of the time, opportunities for electoral cooperation, in the form of compromise candidates, probably don’t exist (please correct me if I’m wrong.) However, it seems to me that selected opportunities for electoral cooperation in the form of vote-trading do exist. I floated such a (crude) proposal at the ronpaulforums.com, in a post entitled Rand Paul for Joe Sestak? Anti-corporatist electoral cooperation, anybody?, and revisited the subject here. In a nutshell: if you are a populist who leans Democratic in a state or district that’s sure to vote Republican, you lose nothing by trading your vote with a populist who leans Republican, who lives in a state or district sure to vote Democratic. So, why not facilitate that?
Well, Jane, what do you think would happen if you and a prominent libertarian publicly and loudly proclaimed that you were soliciting populist vote-trading opportunities along the lines I propose? At the very least, I think you’d have to pony up for more bandwidth, and the entertainment value of the tap-dancing by party loyalists would more than compensate for the higher bill. However, I think we can reasonably expect the ensuing hubbub to make many millions of Americans question party loyalty, and many of those will start looking for reform opportunities along populist lines.
Nope, I won’t do that either. If you want to wander off topic you don’t need me to do it.
I don’t know and yes. Perhaps the Iraqi civilians would have gotten lucky, and instead of an invasion that killed millions, they would only have had to deal with constant embargo and air strikes that only killed hundreds of thousands.
Well, the concern trolls are out. Took you guys long enough — what kept you, an Amway convention? Would it kill you guys to read the thread and actually engage in thoughtful discussion? “Orly on the left”? Really is that all you’ve got in the quiver? Dude, it ain’t much. Go heat up a glass of milk and eat a Christmas cookie or two and you’ll feel better in the morning.
since you are unwilling to defend assertions that you make , you are a hollow wo/man.
Nader-haters are foolish, but not because Nader is important. Rather, Nader-haters (a category which may include no one here) are foolish because Nader is unimportant. Nobody is obliged to vote for Nader, to stay home, or to vote for a Republican — and the first of these options has always been the least popular among Democrats.
Nader does not really have any quality which qualifies him for the Presidency — rather, what Nader does is to say some rather uncomfortable truths while on the campaign trail. If this activity of his were put to some important purpose, like the organization of a third party (which it was in 2000), there might have been some residual meaning to it — but this would mostly be in terms of maintaining ballot status for any third party with which Nader chose to be affiliated. As it is, however, all Nader really does with Presidential campaigns is to make those who scapegoat him look foolish for being the unpaid servants of neoliberal governance.
So, Maybe Gore actually reads the PDB and there is no Sept. 11. And then he attacks Iraq because he isn’t for the half-measures of sanctions.
OK.
I will try to come to terms with your observation. Hopefully with the support of my family and friends I’ll make it through. Thanks.
I’m really curious about the qualities necessary for the Presidency, other than being willing to drop bombs on civilians, and shovel wealth upwards from labor to capital.
By tag-teaming with the libertarians, we can knock corporatists out of office.
This is the method:
1) Approach elections in such a way as to not upset the “left-right balance”
2) We knock out a GOP corporatist by replacing him/her with a Libertarian.
3) We knock out a Dem corporatist by replacing him/her with a Progressive.
4) Some Constitutional Amendments favoring a multi-party system would be nice as well.
This needs immediate action;
I wouldn’t mind seeing an ad hoc Convention of the leading lights of Progressives Libertarians and fellow travelers.
There are, if you take the time to really talk to conservatives (real ones), significant overlaps in belief. The alliance(s) should be based on issues like investigating Rahm, campaign finance, civil liberties, etc.
As i posted at Scholars and Rogues, the fundamental problem we face is that our two parties manage to keep us at each others throats so that we won’t find common ground. Common ground is not the same as perfect agreement, but if common ground can be found on some issues then reaching agreement on others may get significantly easier.
Not all conservatives are Grover Norquist or Rush Limbaugh. The Crunchy Cons share a lot of values with progressives, they just tend to phrase things differently. Important issues like localism, sustainability and community run strong in much conservative thought; they seem just as important to progressives, except the descriptive language seems to differ. I don’t think that Wendell Berry gets enough progressive readership, but he’s worth it because his philosophy is well suited to progressive causes and framed in ways that make it appealing to many conservatives.
And i’ll shut up now, as i’m still trying to develop the contours and depth of this argument.
Lex
Sweet, flamed on the first non-lurk.
Judas is worse. Way worse. I was asking a person I agree with to avoid becoming Orlyesque. Seems some people have already decided that Obama IS Judas. And also fuck Rahm.
Seriously, though, Phred: Yes, it would kill me to read this whole thread. Please engage me in some thoughtful discussion if you disagree with the substance of that comment, rather than just the cheap shot at the end.
Read the thread. FWIW, “Orly on the left” was the cheapest shot taken in 205 comments. Trust me, I read them all. If you bothered to do the same, you would be up to speed on the thoughtful discussion.
Please don’t, you’re off to a really good start : )
My comments @ 143 and 166 in this thread are now in a diary at the Seminal: Obama, Health Care Reform, and You.
Ok. Now I’m going to read TarheelDem’s diary (link in comment @ 176 above)
The Federalists and Anti-Federalists would still be sipping British tea if they could not put aside their differences.
Same with the Republican and Home Rule factions of Ireland.
Hindus and Muslims of India etc…
I would love to “duke it out after” we have buried corporatism.
I was referencing Elliot.
Freedom Works? Really? Those people are not, and never will be, allies of anyone to the left of Orrin Hatch, and they have a boatload of money. You are playing with smallpox-laced anthrax. If you can unite with them on one single POLICY objective (no, not taking down Rahm) I’ll be astounded.
Nah, not reading the whole thread. If you’ve got nothing, you’ve got nothing. Typing is easy. Explain why Jane is in bed with the worst folks imaginable. Or copy and paste from the thread above, where I missed the thoughtful discussion.
I know the Orly thing was a cheap shot. I wrote it, and then identified it as such (though it was obvious in the original). But the point remains. I’m not making camp with Grover Norquist and Dick Armey. Why are you?
There is too much influence from corporations in politics. But you guys at FDL take it to a whole other level. You guys seem paranoid. I think you people need to sit this one out for a while and take a breather.
Coulda woulda mighta didn’t.
Yes, like liberal Democrats supporting regressive individual mandates to purchase crappy private health insurance.
Nope, we gotta trash this turd, organize for Medicare for All, and come back in a year or two.
there are 45,000 people dying every year, none would agree with your slowhealingisbetterthandeath bull.
Kill the filibuster rule in the meantime first!
“Medicare for All?” Hello??? We can’t even get the f-in’ Senate to agree to Medicare for 55+, the dregs of the private risk pool (myself included).
I’m not real sure about how many people on the american right are upset with our becoming-more-overt-by-the-day corporate 4th Reich. I think it’s fair to say that the huge majority of conservatives are perfectly at ease with the “I’ve got mine; screw you Jack!” worldview.
Also, I don’t think that the pejorative word that has recently been in use on progressive blogs; that is: “corporatist”, has seen much exposure in either rightwing media, or on the rightwing ‘net.
And I have serious doubts that it will.
That’s a bold statement, considering that you conclude:
Neither of us can have it both ways. Gore is either the same dumpkus that 43 is, or he is not.
Phred, if you’re out there:
Gotta go to bed soon, as I have to work for the man tomorrow. Love ya bradda, and will check for your response tomorrow.
Argument is good. Dissent is good. I look forward to a substantive debate. Or a flame war, if you insist, which I will also win.
Those mandates are one of the best cost controlling measures in the bill. Almost every serious notable economist agrees with that. Like I said your paranoia against corporations leads to these ridiculous notions, like being against the individual mandate.
And who in Congress is going to vote for Medicare for all after you sit out the 2010 elections or organize 3rd party candidates to split the liberal vote? You guys are not practical at all. Some of your ideas are so silly.
In a republic the problem with a coalition from a governance standpoint is that it has limited ability to affect policy in a meaningful manner. In a parliamentary system such as Canada or Israel it is often possible for a coalition of minority parties to drive the legislative agenda, particularly when there is a minority government.
Republics are, in engineering terms, brittle. The American republic bifurcated into two parties, against repeated warnings (e.g. the Federalist Papers), almost immediately following ratification.
Populist, i.e., grassroots bipartisan movements don’t usually succeed in republics. In Canada, it’s enough for the NDP to have 24 or 30 seats in Parliament, and act as the conscience of the government, or in a minority government, a potential king-maker. In America, such parliamentary subtlety is impossible.
What to do? In our system, polls are the parliamentary vote of confidence. Polls, blogs, and talk radio. I don’t believe there is much, if any, opportunity for a coalition of progressives and libertarians to actually govern. Where I see upside for what Jane and Grover are advocating is to scare the living Christ out of the political class. We must through the media, and when necessary, direct action, be the conscience of the state.
As a libertarian, I suspect I disagree at first principles with most progressives. I hold that the basis of a free society is private property. However, I feel that on an ad hoc basis aligning with progressives on issues as they arise to terrify the regime into constitutional obeyance can work. We agree on the First Amendment, the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eight Amendments. We agree that war is evil (Libertarians simply shrug that war is the health of the state; it is it’s raison d’etre). We agree that government sanctioned monopolies and oligopolies are violent and destructive of liberty. Most progressives I meet concede the right to keep and bear arms, but then I don’t hang around with gun grabbers. Not my cup of tea.
Corporatism, of the kind we have to-day, is not capitalism, nor is it respectful of private property (see Kelo, for e.g.). What we have is a single-party quasi-peronist institutionalist ruling class.
It behooves us as inheritors of the great republican experiment to break the stranglehold these fuckers have on our freedom. I applaud FDL and Jane Hamsher for this bold move. I hope very much we can succeed in sending the elites scurrying for cover (notice how terrified the regime is of Ron Paul’s audit the fed!).
First post – and yes, I blather on. Apologies.
some of you people really hate conservatives huh. one of the several reasons i started posting here, was to point out that as a dyed in the wool old school conservative stop the presses now we have a new tag, for those who must pigeon hole, Free Conservative. I.E. not so easily herded by the whale shit that flys around every two years. i don’t know yet how to hyperlink to this page’ so i’ll just tell ya;check out Rethinking The Tea Party Chronicles of 2009 by Charles Cooper, the tea-party was pure orchestrated crap, and not all of us support the fiasco, but we know why some of them are as pissed of as they are. the marginalizing of everyone whom does not share ones pin-hole perspective is non conducive to Democracy. Why go to war over which side to break the egg on? Why do some people always try to play profit? why do some people waste time thinking that they know the secret motives of someone else, rather than ask? I guess Confucious already figured out all these things, we should try to remember, if our Country goes to hell, we are all equally screwed, and if we quibble over pettyness and name calling, instead of doing our best to work together for the common good, then we will be judged as too stupid to remember.
###
see you when i see you ; the Kennedy Center Celebration mostly kicked ass.
You forgot to mention that compared to cost-cutting measures that have been stripped from earlier versions, this one is on the backs of patients, since the premiums, deductibles and co-pays are allowed to skyrocket from lack of regulation… Unless you are counting on the beneficence of the insurance companies to NOT raise them. That’ll happen.
But this omission aside, consider what “us Liberals” have been rewarded with in the past by NOT clamoring about low-quality, high-cost, politically catastrophic public policy – screwed.
Not this time.
This is the best, though:
Your
sliptell is showing.Welcome to The Lake.
romo2:
“Those mandates are one of the best cost controlling measures in the bill. Almost every serious notable economist agrees with that. Like I said your paranoia against corporations leads to these ridiculous notions, like being against the individual mandate.”
List your 3 serious notable economists, but before we go on you go on and define ‘notable’ and ‘economist’.
Hell, just list them.
That’s the key phrase.
Important note: We have a bunch of “Conservatives” here. Some still registered Republicans, some only recently dropped their Republican registration for something else.
Conservatives are not, and have never been, the ‘enemy’ around here. It’s radical dickheads who also happen to be registered Republicans, who comprise the enemy.
And welcome.
then why hasn’t MA seen that great cost control from implementing mandates in their 2006 reform?
Well, you’ve met your Libertarians and I’ve met mine.
my brain just came. thanks for this one Jane.
those Jane bashers at DK are truly unhinged…
two of them take pride in coming to FDL, reading a few paragraphs, deciding that Jane (or other posters) are clearly distorting the truth ON PURPOSE! And then they trot back to dk with their bone, write ridiculous diaries and the entire Obama-can-do-no-wrong brigade piles on over and over and over and over, getting more rabid and hateful with each post… someone likened it to Animal Farm and they are not far off.
Dear Jane,
LOOK WHAT I FOUND RE: Kevin Drum Quotes “Enemy” Grover Norquist!!!!! READ It & Decide Yourselves—Sounded like Drum has nice sentiments towards Grover here!!!! Ummm….Ummm.
I came across an article written by Kevin Drum in the Los Angeles Times from August 24, 2005 entitled, “It’s all about-face for the Democrats.” Drum starts out the Op-Ed quoting Grover Norquist “to make a point.” I thought you might want to know about this, if you didn’t already. This article speaks for itself—Kevin Drum is essentially a Democratic Party Gatekeeper from way back and wants the antiwar movment to back the Democrats no matter how much they sell out the peace position on war. This guy is a piece of work! Still, for those unaware of it, the article is here with some excerpts and link:
The Los Angeles Times
It’s all about-face for the Democrats
August 24, 2005| Kevin Drum, KEVIN DRUM is a writer for the Washington Monthly.
“…THE SUMMER’S POLLS show that one-third of Americans favor an immediate withdrawal from Iraq and nearly two-thirds support withdrawal within the next year. In the face of such numbers, the conventional wisdom predicts disaster at the polls for Republicans in the 2006 midterm elections. As conservative insider Grover Norquist put it recently: “If Iraq is in the rearview mirror in the ’06 elections, the Republicans will do fine. But if it’s still in the windshield, there are problems.”
“…Is this good news for Democrats? Maybe, but a growing disconnect between the party’s establishment hawks and an increasingly antiwar base could foretell an even bigger crackup on the Democratic than the Republican side. So far, none of the best known faces of the Democratic Party — Hillary Clinton, say, or Joe Biden, or John Kerry, all of whom supported the war — have joined those clamoring for an end to the fighting. In fact, the foreign policy establishment of the Democratic Party is lined up with President Bush in favor of “staying the course.”…..Needless to say, an internecine war between its hawks and doves is the last thing the beleaguered Democratic Party needs. You can be sure that Karl Rove would do his best to hammer such a wedge straight through the heart of the party come election time. So both Democratic factions would be well-advised to do some serious thinking before their disagreements get out of hand.”
“…For their part, members of the antiwar left have an easy role: They should continue to push establishment Democrats to support withdrawal from Iraq, but they should also make it clear that no one will be punished for doing so, regardless of their past support for the war. However angry they are, doves can best serve their cause by not demanding tortured explanations and tearful apologies. A change in position should be enough.”
“…The hawks have a much harder job. They’re the ones who need to publicly change their position, an act that carries the risk of being tarred forever with the dreaded label that killed Kerry’s presidential campaign: “flip-flopper.” Besides, mainstream Democratic politicians and their advisors genuinely think immediate withdrawal is a bad idea that likely would plunge Iraq into a savage civil war….”
The Entire Article can be read @:
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/aug/24/opinion/oe-drum24
Yeah, great first comment! You should blog over at the Seminal.
Huh, that’s funny.
Absolutely, and it — like problems with government — is linked to the inability to identify specific tasks and responsibilities of specific managers (or electeds) and hold them accountable.
There has to be some way to publicly monitor and report those electeds who do good work (and some do), as opposed to the seat-warmers, bullshitters, and smarmy jingoists.
Fantastic comment!
I am quite familiar with Austrian Econonomic Theory, which is the main academic underrpinning of modern libertarian political economy (think Hayek, von Mises and Rothbard), and I’m very sympathetic to some of its major points. But the hole in the dike is Hayek’s assertion (in “The Road to Serfdom”) that corporate power is qualitatively different from government power in that government can use coercion and corporations cannot in order to advance the projects in which they’re interested.
Once corporations become as enmeshed with government as they have over the last 30 years, that distinction disappears. The next major political movement in the U.S. will be comprised of progressives and libertarians. They will disagree about many things, but the disagreements will be of a different order of magnitude than the total opposition that most progressives and libertarians feel toward the mainstream of the parties with which they have reluctantly affiliated up until now. I’m very optimistic all of the sudden, since I speak both languages fluently, and the times to come will favor that type of bilingualism. Progressives: read Hayek. Libertarians: read Polanyi.
I am what I am; someone has to be.
I got into a bad car accident. I have been unconscious for the past three days….So, what is this DailyKos anyway? It’s probably better I never heard of such a thing, anyhow….I know I never registered with that site cause I saw its founder on TV a few years back and did not think much of him. Still don’t. He is a Gatekeeper and an Insider….Markos—is a typical sycophant of the powerful.
I love this site though and did remember it despite being unconscious for three days….some things are not worth remembering or paying attention to. I think the DailyKos is so last decade.
Okay, I did not have any accident—but the rest is true and I meant all of it…..But the people at the DailyKos certainly are unconscious or ignorant, if they slander Jane or FDL!
I am very familiar with Austrian Econonomic Theory, which is the main academic underrpinning of modern libertarian political economy (think Hayek, von Mises and Rothbard), and I’m very sympathetic to some of its major points. But the hole in the dike is Hayek’s repeated assertiom that corporate power is qualitatively different from government power, insofar as government can use coercion to compel action, whereas private institutions like corporations must rely on persuasion within the market process.
Once corporations become as enmeshed with government as they have over the last 30 years, that distinction disappears. When it disappears, big business becomes as much of a threat to individual freedom and security as the worst libertarian caricature of government, insofar as the stated purpose of business is to maximize profits, with no concession whatever to promoting the common good. The old adage that corporations maximize their social utility when they maximize profits goes out the window when profit maximization comes to be centered around rent seeking behavior through corruption of the political process, rather than competition withing the market process.
The next major political movement in the U.S. will be comprised of progressives and libertarians. They will disagree about many things, but the disagreements will be of a different order of magnitude than the total opposition and sense of betrayal that most progressives and libertarians feel toward the mainstreams of the parties with which they have reluctantly affiliated up until now. I’m optimistic all of the sudden, since I speak both languages fluently, and the times to come will favor that type of bilingualism. Progressives: read Hayek. Libertarians: read Polanyi.
I am what I am; someone has to be.
I completely agree. The very notion that the government has a “monopoly on force” is both completely asinine, and completely invalidated by endless points of empiricism. Organized crime is a market agent, and they’re not known for their tickle fights.
The old joke is, “Austrian School economics is for people who can’t do calculus.” And I honestly think there’s some truth to that. It’s comprised of a lot of empty philosophical platitudes that make at least as many absurd assumptions as the very worst math-models of modern economic theory.
I find it really interesting as a sort of discourse on the crude mechanics of basic markets, but that’s about as far as I can go with it. In my field, Computer Science, the analog would be like saying that building fault-tolerant systems, exception handling, etc. were all pointless pursuits, because the only real way to deal with a program that’s about to crash is to just let it core dump and boot it back up again; rinse, repeat.
Since FDL has recently been visited by some superb commenters of the Libertarian suasion who much like the Progressive Left have been left out in the wilderness for as far back as any can remember, I’d like to offer a palliative of sorts in the form of a lengthy ecerpt from an article by Justin Raimondo (who describes himself as a “conservative-paleo-libertarian.”) on Ralph Nader.
Old Right Nader
BY JUSTIN RAIMONDO
“We’re getting poorer, he said. In spite of government propaganda about how things are getting better, our standard of living, compared to the way our parents lived, is declining. The Left, content to settle for less, has given up fighting for real progress, while the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans on such issues as “the concentration of power.”
Nader explained that his campaign is important “pictorially” because the two major parties, left to themselves, will merely consolidate the status quo: there will be no one to pull the political dialogue in a new direction. He spoke of “the domination of multi-national corporations” intent on “erecting a corporate globalization scheme of international autocratic government called WTO and NAFTA.” The avarice and cowardice of the two parties allows this to happen. Invoking the legacy of the populist and progressive movements of the last century, Nader urged the crowd to remember the fighting tradition of ordinary people who stood up to the railroad monopolies and bankers. They didn’t “settle for less,” he declared, and neither should you.
He kept coming back to the theme of a liberal intelligentsia that has betrayed the cause of progressive reform. They are, he charged, at once arrogant and too accommodating. They “presume to tell you that [your efforts on behalf of Nader] will help to re-elect George W. Bush—but when push actually came to shove in Florida, what did they do?” “Who elected George W. Bush?” he asked. “It was the Democratic Party! Even after they won the election they blew it!”I cheered when he cited Gen. Smedley Butler’s book War is a Racket as an example of how corporate interests manipulate patriotic sentiment, socializing the risks of overseas investments and pocketing the profits. The Democrats are a big part of the problem: “In Washington they say that George W. Bush must be defeated because of the War in Iraq. Who voted for the War in Iraq? John Kerry. They say our civil liberties are being sacrificed by the Patriot Act. Who voted for the Patriot Act? Every Democratic Senator except Sen. Russ Feingold voted for the Patriot Act.”
What we have in this country, he declared, is “corporate socialism.” You should’ve seen the dirty looks I got as I applauded vigorously. Socialism, to this audience, doesn’t have anything to do with corporations, it can’t. But Nader is no Red; he knows better. Although all 11 varieties of Trotskyists were there in full force, earnestly hawking their pamphlets, the rhetoric that was coming from the stage was hardly music to their ears.
Nader’s distrust of bigness, either corporate or governmental, his fear of centralized power, his sharp critique of the managerial-bureaucratic mentality, all recall the distinctively American tradition of individualist populism. Just as Nader rebelled against the corporate socialism of the Democratic Party establishment, so the mostly Midwestern progressives turned against the New Deal when it became a stalking horse for corporatism and war. Nader’s views are attractive to the Left but are rooted, at least in part, on the libertarian and populist Right.
He wasn’t always a leftist icon. One of his first published articles appeared in the Oct. 1962 issue of The Freeman, a libertarian magazine. The piece, “How the Winstedites Kept Their Integrity,” told the story of how a proposal to build a public-housing project met with opposition in Winsted, Conn., Nader’s hometown. He attacked the aesthetic aspect of government housing projects as symbolic of “the drab, uniform, barrack-type existence” that awaits its tenants. He writes:
Living under the government as landlord neither teaches children the value of property (which is one reason why public housing deteriorates so quickly) nor produces the environment for the exercise of independence, self-reliance, and, above all, citizenship. Any government intrusion into the economy deters the alleged beneficiaries from voicing their views or participating in civic life. The reason for this goes beyond the stigma of living in subsidized housing. When public housing becomes, as it has over the nation, a source of additional patronage for local distribution to contractors, repairmen, and tenants, the free expression of human beings is thus discouraged.
What riled Ralph about the Winsted housing project was that locals were denied access to information by bureaucrats and had to resort to three referenda before they could scotch the plans of political insiders to milk private profit from the public teat. It’s the same old Ralph, albeit a bit more libertarian than we’re used to.
As he stood on the stage, denouncing corporate socialism and foreign wars, that calm, clear voice ringing with modest sincerity, I thought: no wonder they’re so afraid of him that they’ve hired an army of corporate lawyers to deny him ballot status and shut down his campaign.I know Ralph Nader is supposed to be a man of the Left, the Eugene Debs or the Norman Thomas of our times, but as I listen to him on the stump, I keep hearing the voice of the Old Right. ”
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2004/nov/08/00010/
Nader stood in as a write-in for “none of the above” in both the 1992 New Hampshire Democratic and Republican Primaries and received 3,054 of the 170,333 Democratic votes and 3,258 of the 177,970 Republican votes cast
“Patently false”? How so?
Frankly, it’s an opinion I would generally agree with based on the Libertarians I know. I was excoriated by many for supporting a small tax in the town where I ran for council because it was a position supporting a tax. Even though I explained that supporting this small tax on homeowners meant that a much larger tax would no longer be charged to those very same homeowners. Never mind that, I was eeeeevil because I supported a tax.
I was married for years to someone who was deeply involved with the Libertarian Party in California. This is the largest state organization of Libertarians in the country and at the time, approximately 1/3 of all members of the Libertarian Party were members of the California LP. In fact, for a few months, I was the state secretary of the California LP. I am telling you, they are NUTS. In California and elsewhere on the West Coast, active Libertarians are flat-out nuts. I don’t know about Libertarians in your area. They may well be more reasonable. But in California, the state Chair sued the state Secretary over a trivial matter and it dragged on for ages. They lost a lot of membership that way, but the state Chair didn’t care, or rather, he did but didn’t understand that it was his doing (although people did tell him) and then took it out on senior board members, all of whom were volunteers.
They’re no less nuts in Washington than they were in California. Never mind little things that might matter to Washington voters, like good hygiene. Never mind that the only public activity undertaken by the Washington Libertarians is to stand on tax night, April 15, outside a post office and hand out flyers, the same flyer every year. Never mind that even in California, with a third of all Libertarian Party members in the country, the only Libertarians who have gotten elected in California have been elected to no higher office than county commissioner. Never mind starting small with local candidates and then building from there. If a local candidate wins, he or she is immediately going to feel pressure from the Party organization and various ambitious LP members to run for Congress, and if he or she demurs, he or she will be abandoned. I’ve seen it time and again.
thanks for that excerpt, fno.
if only more firepups would venture over to the precincts of places like Antiwar.com, they could get a glimpse of the inner workings of the Old Right/Libertarian populism they like to fear and mock.
perhaps now that one of the Big Chiefs has opened the door, they can peek some little mousy noses through and realize they are not so scary over there after all.
Hysterical post!
Again Jane ,you assume the mantle of the leader of the grassroots.
“No doubt the demonization for doing so from party loyalists on both sides who don’t want their control of the kleptocracy to be challenged will only get more fierce.” bwahahahaha you mean party loyalists like the writers at Jack and Jill!, Nate at 538, shall I go on ?….you know them all as YOUR loyalists have been defending you on all of their sites. Pathetic. You sound more and more desperate every day.
By the way, the letter opposing Bernanke is totally different that what YOU and YOUR loyalists are actually advocating. But somehow you will triangulate your way out of that one too.
Clarity in orienting one’s political ideology within the range of possibilities is enormously helpful, even as a first approximation. By noting nuanced shades of similarities in political thinking as opposed to stark polar opposites one can see where naturally occurring alliances are useful and achievable. Polar opposites are not likely to bear any fruit.
A scheme resembling the points on a compass that plots ideologies is helpful, where:
-North being Popular or democratic ruled
-South being autocratic or ruled by dictate
-East being strong central government
-West being weak central and great local government
This scheme allows one to “fix” one’s political orientation to at least some degree of coherence. In this scheme left (or West) and right (or East) do have actual counterparts in reality. For instance due east you have a centrally planned society being Communist or Fascist depending on where you are on the North-South axis.
And due West you have a totally local government run society being Libertarian (or Anarchical) or Dictatorial depending on where you are along the North-South axis.
In this way we see that a “liberal” political temperament lies in the area between NE to W and is poles apart from the SW to East area that defines an autocratic fascist prone way of thinking.
The idea is that what allows people to be of a like political mind and to work together and form parties is whether they share a “popular or democratic” predisposition vs an autocratic one. Libertarians and liberals have a natural political affinity as they both are in the same general political spectrum and they both differ markedly from dictatorial or fascist ideologies with whom they would not be able to work together.
Identifying political mindsets in this way is not necessarily confining or meaningless and I do think that it allows for some clarity in seeking like minded people with whom one may ultimately join forces. Which I believe is essential and worth pursuing. For instance, I have every expectation of finding common ground with those on the right as long as they are not too autocratic.
This scheme is not comprehensive, of course, and issues such as moral values and economic matters would need to be included, but one can see how they could be fit in without necessarily invalidating the nature of the scheme.
The mandates didn’t contain costs in Romneycare. Tell us more about these economists.
It is a measure of how damaging the Senate bill is, which Obama favors, that by contrast the Republican proposals in the Senate are preferable such as they are.
The worst aspect of the current Senate bill is the mandate w/o a PO. But it also contains a punitve and unworkable tax on health benefits which is meant to partly finance the cost to the government of the plan. Both of these provisions are unacceptable and yet they will likely be included in the final legislation.
The Republicans in the Senate on the other hand have shown a hostility to such mandates and because their plan for HCR is essentially non-existent it at least does less harm than the current Senate bill. In essense we on the left as well as the Republicans in the Senate seem to agree that the current Senate version of the bill should not become law.
And if we are serious about defeating the Senate bill then we will be more closely aligned with the right than with Obama. I don’t see then why we should be overly concerned with the loss of Reid or Lincoln or Landrieu if they are replaced by Republicans next fall. The Senate will still remain as dysfunctional and unable to act in the public’s interest as it is now.
Most analysts of American political parties see them in their current faux-ideological state. So they often forget that they really do amount to coalitions, which shift over time. One party is the governing coalition, and the other is the opposition coalition. The counterpart of parliamentary parties are the factions within US parties, now often formally organized into caucuses. The piece that we miss is the vote of confidence, which permits an immediate campaign and election of representatives, and the formation of a new governing coalition. That makes all of the political relationship during the session of Congress pretty much confined within Congress and less subject to public opinion. Ingrown.
And:
Spot on. And it derives its “legitimacy” from its global counterparts and not from the people it purports to represent.
Spot on Jane.
If people on the Left who are attacking you were being consistent, they would calling for Greyson’s head. I’m as Progressive as you can get, but I personally thought that was a great example on how bipartisanship SHOULD work.
BTW, have you seen Nate Silver’s “20 Questions for Bill Killers” yet?
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/20-questions-for-bill-killers.html
Eagerly waiting for your response. :)
Ugh. Sorry about the last post. The edit feature did that and I couldn’t change it.
I suppose I’m going to wait forever before I get a response as to why going on Fox and Friends was a good idea…..
Jane answered your question over a week ago right here in this post: Why I Went on Fox and Friends (Dec 22, 2009).
There’s nothing not to get. She explained it perfectly well.
As I concluded in my diary yesterday, Old Fault Lines, New Alliances, and the Lessons of Failure, people like Jane and Cenk Uygur are willing to do what it takes to break this broken system, while:
Jane has explained what she’s doing perfectly well.
Sorry you’re among those whom Jane is scaring and/or are among those who’re afraid of using effective methods to achieve results on behalf of the progressive agenda.
If your house is on fire late at night ..no one is around to put it out. You are going door to door to wake up neighbors. .maybe screaming ..Are you hysterical?
Welcome, I am glad to see you here. On the off chance that you stop back, I am curious how Austrian economic theory deals with the problem of monopolies. I don’t see how one prevents concentrated economic power without regulation to prevent it. Competition cannot co-exist with monopolies, so the whole free market self-correction thing fails at that point. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts on this point.
I come here and read because of the outside the box inside the vision thinking. thank you all. Happy New Yeear. !
Great post fuckno, thanks for that.
I don’t know if you read my earlier comments, but I did mention that just as progressives range from “nutjob to well-grounded” the same is true for libertarians. I stand by my statement that sweeping generalizations are not helpful to any argument. We are much better off making arguments on their merits rather than dismissing those we view as “other” as being too insane to even talk to. I do know some very reasonable libertarians and I have tried to describe their views throughout this thread to help steer the conversation away from the nutty progressive screamers too intolerant to listen to other points of view.
I would recommend you read VMT’s excellent comment at 138 which concludes with:
Absolutely.
Regarding force, a clarification on your point. Austrians, libertarians and anarchists believe the government has a legally sanctioned monopoly on the initiation of force. In fact, I think that’s axiomatic, isn’t it?
Anarchists, Austrians and some libertarians believe this is morally wrong. They also believe that the monopolistic creation and enforcement of laws is immoral.
As far as Austrians, I can assure you squire, I knows the math :) Most Austrian economists do. The question is what is the purpose of complex economic models that can’t possibly divine how individuals act and what their wants are? To Austrians, “The Economy” isn’t an agent, or some monolothic structure; it’s simply millions of individuals allocating scarce resources to address infinite wants.
Someone also mentioned the mafia. Their existence proves the anarchists point – this exist only because the state and it’s laws (drugs, prostitution, gambling, anti-usury) have driven supply of certain goods underground. Less laws = less crime.
Yet human beings do exhibit herd mentality, have very predictable patterns of behavior under various conditions, and Austrian economics still assumes people to be essentially rational utility maximizing agents; which is either an indictment of the notion that you’re not asserting the “wants” of individuals, or renders the terms “rational”, “utility”, and “maximize” to be so vague as to be meaningless adjectives.
One can successfully argue against the efficacy of material prohibition laws to reasonable degree, but for those and other sorts of crime the statement, “Less laws == less crime” is just a truism (one of those platitudes I mentioned earlier). Making theft, rape, and murder legal doesn’t make them go away, it just advocates vigilanteism over republicanism. You’re just trading one system of “justice” that supposedly abides by rules and regulations for one that absolutely doesn’t.
The reality is that in a functioning democracy the government serves at the will and approval of the people, and as such it is no more than another agent in the market like any other, even its ability to produce money isn’t novel, as the use of that specific currency is nothing more than the expression of the people that universalizing exchange through, in this case, Dollars is more desirable than whatever atomized alternatives we could contrive, and even that doesn’t stop us from trying; rent credits, coupons, barter, etc.
Now, we don’t have a functioning democracy. If we did the government wouldn’t have such an adversarial relationship with the citizenry, as it would be impossible for a government “of” and “for” the People, to have such contempt for them.
My opinion is that intertemporal choice, information asymmetry, and irreconcilable imperfect labor mobility make the concept of “free-markets are functional markets” rather absurd. A useful philosophical and crude framework within which to understand capitalism, but specifically as a means to highlight what is specifically wrong with it as a broad framework. Again, it’s like saying because of hardware errata, known bugs, and unknown bugs we shouldn’t have bothered to improve upon the crash-reboot cycle of computing. Error messages? Perverts the cycle. Exception handling? Perverts the cycle. Fault-tolerant hardware? Perverts the cycle. Pre-emptive multitasking? Perverts the cycle.
Computer scientists have been solving the problem of scare resources, competing interests, and unknown variables for decades; to significant success as evidenced by the fact that we’re even having this discussion in this medium.
You guys should quit hanging out in the math department, and walk across the hall to strike up a conversation with the CS folks from time to time ;-)
Most libertarians it’s been my observation believe in fairies and unicorns or might as well. They empower themselves to be as asinine and hypocritical as can be. They hate government but when government creates fictitious people(corporations)they don’t have a problem with that. I think most libertarians are closet fascists that justify their fascism with a thin veil of “Capitalism”. Not that they mind that there is little competition in the modern marketplace it’s all Capitalist so it’s all good.
Replying to Nathan Aschbacher @ 259 In response to barredrock @ 258
When reading your exchange a quote came to mind.
H.L. Mencken
“I believe in only one thing: liberty; but I do not believe in liberty enough to want to force it upon anyone.”
The question is what is the purpose of complex economic models that can’t possibly divine how individuals act and what their wants are? To Austrians, “The Economy” isn’t an agent, or some monolothic structure; it’s simply millions of individuals allocating scarce resources to address infinite wants.
Yet human beings do exhibit herd mentality, have very predictable patterns of behavior under various conditions, and Austrian economics still assumes people to be essentially rational utility maximizing agents; which is either an indictment of the notion that you’re not asserting the “wants” of individuals, or renders the terms “rational”, “utility”, and “maximize” to be so vague as to be meaningless adjectives.
Thanks so much Jane. I’ll mosey over there and check it out.
Thank you for what you’re doing, it’s borderline heroic considering the slings and arrows being hurled your way. Keep up the pressure.
Computers assist in allocating scarce resources, rather than solve scarcity. There is no way to solve scarcity of a good.
Agreed, I assumed that was implied, but I should have used the term to be specific.
To clarify on this point from an Austrian perspective. Rational in Austrian economics means only to act with purpose. Human action is ipso facto rational. Irrational action is when an individual is induced — stimulated, in the parlance of our times — to act by an exogenous force and to make choices he wouldn’t otherwise make. This is the heart of the austrian critique of the Business Cycle and how central banking distorts entrepreneurial choice in the marketplace.
As far as money: market based money existed long before fiat legal tender, and will do so again — and soon at that. The dollar is backed by nothing but the ‘full faith and credit of the US Government’. Sheesh, it’s even hard to type that with a straight face. :)
This is stimulating conversation; much more productive than trying to “debate” the neocons.
From my comment @259:
:-)
It’s rational simply because I did it; is a non-starter.
Also, I’ve long been confused why the entire institutions of marketing and advertising aren’t near the top of the list of enemies to the libertarian economic mindset? They’re entire enterprises dedicated to the pursuit of exploiting your predictable behavior, and in some cases attempt to alter your fundamental cognitive capacity. Any input?
yes I will start a blog on Seminal so we can debate further.
The ‘permission’ to psychologically elicit ‘irrational’ behavior from people on behalf of markets always smacked of some Kafkaesque nightmare.
‘Rembrandt’s Anatomy Lesson’ at the seminal is, indeed, what’s called for.
This is the explanation? I sure hope not because it’s sorely lacking. For starters, the right wing establishment in DC was ecstatic that she went on Fox attacking the White House on health care reform. Jane fundamentally misunderstands the right if she thinks that they consider any health care reform other than a total loss for them. Why do you think not a single Republican has voted for it? They want the opposite of what Jane wants. All the adolescent posturing about ‘scaring’ the establishment won’t change that.
Lol…right, anyone who disagrees with going on Fox and Friends is just a big scaredy cat. Meanwhile Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes are laughing all the way to the bank.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/21636
have at it
“Naderism” just happens to be telling the truth-about 2 decades before anyone else, is able to see it. What we are going through now, the death of any meaningful health reform, is EXACTLY what Nader has been talking about forever.
Damn straight and thank you for saying it. Ralph Nader was exactly the candidate Progressives have dreamed of. You all had him and you turned your backs on him. Now you demonize HIM!
“You can line up a thousand Nobel laureate scientists and have them confirm that CO2 emissions must be curbed to save the planet or show right-wingers pictures of enormous glacier melt as proof of the awful road we’re on, but those actions really amount to zilch in comparison to someone like Pat Robertson making the same case. I think it’s pretty clear that progressives need to find some way to move away from political polarization if we’re going to get anywhere.”
I had some extra time on my hands during the 2008 election process and strolled quite a few “liberal” blogspots. The extent of time these people spent insulting “red state” denizens–I mean *people* not Bush/Cheney or Republican operatives or anyone with any kind of actual power, but ordinary people–was **UNREAL**
If I considered myself a conservative, a Christian per-se, a resident of the South– or of the “racist” State of Pennsylvania–I would not have listened to a single thing any of these “libruls” had to say about anything else. And why should I?
THIS, in the middle of a CAMPAIGN!–when they were desperately looking people for people to vote “librul.” How stupid do you have to be?
I’ve had it with the automatic demonization of so-called “liberals.” It was taking on an alomst “racist” tenor all of its own, kind of like the ill considered campaign against muslims.
I finally got that “reverse racism” charge, and decided it sticks. The so-called “libruls” need to unstick it. You know, just can it already.