There’s a very slick PR letter posted online that’s being furiously retweeted by DC political operatives. I wasn’t going to address it, but the editor of the Nation Katrina vanden Heuvel started pushing it. It becomes widely disseminated based on her role as a validator within the progressive community, and that necessitated a reply.
The letter says:
I do not doubt that you genuinely feel that your very vocal opposition to the Senate health care bill is in the absolute interests of the American populace and progressive politics. I honestly believe that you feel that the administration has let you and other progressives down by not publically pushing harder for elements in the bill that we all hoped would survive the legislative process.
What I doubt is that your actions will ultimately serve the advancement of the progressive agenda that you obviously care so much about. I believe in fact, that quite the opposite will be the result. Pushing for the very best bill that we can get through this congress is laudable, attacking the administration for dealing with the reality that is congress is not.
You can argue that this bill helps people and is therefore progressive. I would argue that it forces the middle class to pay almost as much to private insurance companies as they do in federal taxes, weakens the coverage of those who have employer-based insurance, and is a Shock Doctrine attempt to raid the public sphere of unprecedented magnitude. I come down on the side of Marcy Wheeler, wrote an important post entitled “Health Care on the Road to Neofeudalism“:
I understand the temptation to offer 30 million people health care. What I don’t understand is the nonchalance with which we’re about to fundamentally shift the relationships of governance in doing so.
But the truly creepy thing about the letter being pushed by Katrina (in addition to all the manipulative Orwellian language), is that it doesn’t argue the bill itself is progressive. Rather, it says “attacking the administration for dealing with the reality that is congress” is not “laudable” and hurts the “progressive agenda.”
It is manifestly untrue that the bill is the handiwork of Congress, for which the President bears no responsibility. The White House negotiated this bill with lobbyists starting early in the year. As Marc Ambinder reported shortly after the inauguration, the official White House strategy would be to deflect responsibility for anything unpopular onto Congress.
But Rahm Emanuel’s need for self-promotion keeps stepping on that plan. The New York Times is just one of many places that has reported that he has been running the show all along:
Rahm Emanuel, the chief of staff, runs the campaign out of his West Wing office. A former congressman, he knows how to count votes. (It was Mr. Emanuel, for instance, who suggested Mr. Orszag reach out to Ms. Collins.) Aides say he does not host a regular health care meeting, but rather summons his team several times a day, typically with e-mail messages ordering colleagues to drop everything and show up right that minute.
On October 5, I wrote “Countdown to Lieberman,” saying it was only a matter of time before Joe stepped in and we started hearing that old song about “60 votes” again. And Brian Beutler reported that when it came time to deliver a bill to the Senate and yank the public option on October 25, Obama didn’t want to take credit for Rahm’s handiwork:
Reid wants Obama to do it to give cover to his caucus, Obama wants Reid to do it so he’s not the bad guy on the public option, and can still walk away with a win with reform, with bipartisanship, and with a card for everybody running for re-election.”
The Obama White House has been working furiously to pass an enormous transfer of wealth to the insurance companies from the start. I don’t see how reporting this constitutes “attacking the administration,” or why it “hurts” the “progressive agenda” to do so. So, I was very surprised that Katrina would promote and give the imprimateur of the Nation to a blog post encouraging me not to be critical of the administration on health care, and to accept the fiction that this bill is the fault of Congress. I asked her why she was doing this, and she replied:
Big tent. Divisions within progressive community can’t be wished away. Respect your views; worth respecting others’ views.
It’s not such a big tent when you’re promoting something that tells someone to stop criticizing the president’s role in crafting the health care bill, nor does it “respect” the views of anyone who disagrees with that contention on the basis of well-documented evidence. Yet the editor of the Nation is granting its legitimacy to a post which attempts to stifle criticism of the president and dismisses it as “Naderite,” equating the “progressive agenda” with “what’s politically advantageous for the President.”
Recently, Glenn Greenwald wrote in a post entitled “White House as helpless victim on health care“:
Of all the posts I wrote this year, the one that produced the most vociferous email backlash — easily — was this one from August, which examined substantial evidence showing that, contrary to Obama’s occasional public statements in support of a public option, the White House clearly intended from the start that the final health care reform bill would contain no such provision and was actively and privately participating in efforts to shape a final bill without it. From the start, assuaging the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries was a central preoccupation of the White House — hence the deal negotiated in strict secrecy with Pharma to ban bulk price negotiations and drug reimportation, a blatant violation of both Obama’s campaign positions on those issues and his promise to conduct all negotiations out in the open (on C-SPAN). Indeed, Democrats led the way yesterday in killing drug re-importation, which they endlessly claimed to support back when they couldn’t pass it. The administration wants not only to prevent industry money from funding an anti-health-care-reform campaign, but also wants to ensure that the Democratic Party — rather than the GOP – will continue to be the prime recipient of industry largesse.
Glenn was indeed roundly attacked for asserting that this bill is the handiwork of the White House, even though as he says “the evidence was overwhelming from the start that the White House was not only indifferent, but opposed, to the provisions most important to progressives.” And Russ Feingold backs him up:
“This bill appears to be legislation that the president wanted in the first place, so I don’t think focusing it on Lieberman really hits the truth,” said Feingold. “I think they could have been higher. I certainly think a stronger bill would have been better in every respect.”
Despite this evidence, there is an orchestrated, active, full-court press to discredit and silence anyone who tries to point out the responsibility the president bears for crafting this bill. I’m surprised that the editor of the Nation would take part in it.





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Dear Jane,
I agree with everything in your post.
But I would offer an old adage that came to me through Andrei Codrescu: “He who speaks the truth must keep his horse saddled.”
The response you’ve received is to be expected. To further highlight it just raises the charge that you’re paranoid, that you’ve “lost it”.
By focusing on your attackers, you encourage more attacks.
It is surprising. But I don’t see her as an effective leader for the left, so it’s not shocking. Maybe she suffers from some of that self-loathing Robert Cruikshank describes. She certainly is employing the same scare tactics in support of a neo-liberal bill.
It’s unbelievably disappointing that vanden Heuvel and The Nation have adopted this posture w/r/t criticism of the health care bill.
Once people understand exactly how this bill works, the Democrats will begin to pay a price at the polls for a generation at least, and Obama’s “legacy” will be that of milquetoast who couldn’t muster the courage to face down corporate interests.
Internal criticism is healthy. I truly respect Katrina but suggesting that what you and others are doing by shining the light on just who is responsible for this weak legislation is odd.
Do not understand the “exchanges” that Harkin keeps bringing up. And he has repeated that the “public option” will be revisited.
What I don’t understand is once you have all ready put billions in the pockets of Pharma and Insurance companies how does “incrementalism” move backwards?
It was quite obvious that the Obama administration did not encourage really examining single payer and then would not stand on the grounds that the “public option/medicare buy in” are the compromise. Sounds like Rahm and Obama are more concerned about the profit margins of Insurance/Pharma companies than the well being of the American people
Seems to me that Jane’s pointing out, in an unassailable manner, the origins of the attacks before they have a chance to blossom and harden into “conventional wisdom”. If she didn’t respond she’d be accused of ignoring the issue.
As to why KvH would do this, when the Nation’s readership has been vocally expressing positions closer to FDL’s than to that of KvH’s letter — well, that’s something for her to explain.
Jane millions of folks right behind you. Thanks for your incredible commitment to the welfare of the American people
Yep — wasn’t important until it rose to that level, then had to be addressed.
I don’t see how not fighting for one wants will get one what one wants from “the reality that is congress.”
Can’t see it.
I should say that it wasn’t actually authored by her, but she liked it well enough to be tweetspamming it, so in this context that may well be a distinction without a difference.
I have often wondered just how Progressive Katrina is. She seems a little soft around the edges to me.
Shorter letter: “Close your eyes and think of
EnglandProgressive Values”Jane,
I’m with you and Emptywheel on this one. I don’t understand the complacency of those on the left to this blatant triumph of corporatism.
Another thing:
It’s ok for PhRMA and Aetna, Glenn Beck and Teabaggers, all other usual DC players to generate noise and exert pressure on “this congress,” just not for progressives.
Trying to sell that Civics lesson is the height of Chutzpah!
Some people get addicted to the WH returning their calls.
Some people fall outside of the demographic that is most impacted by the conniving of our legislators.
Some people are getting along just fine with things as they are.
How you and I are getting along is just not very important to some people, at least when compared to how they are getting along with their very important friends.
You’re right. Kill the bill and start over.
The debate hasn’t even begun, and Reid can’t wait to get this crappy game changer off his desk so he can concentrate on the Bush Tax Cuts – an even bigger rip-off to come.
Nader’s latest
“Only the Super-rich Can Save Us!”
http://www.sevenstories.com/book/?GCOI=58322100712790
Worth it
Ask the editor of the Nation to meet you on MSNBC, or on FOX they like a good fight.
First rule of Internet fight club: always defend, always attack. If she doesn’t call Katrina out then the argument stands unrebutted. Plus, Jane is a fine writer with a website…always looking for material I’m sure.
Two, its not just this mandates without price controls (We can look forward to the day when the administration says “Nobody could’ve predicted…shocked, just shocked that there are no effective price controls on the big insurance, big pharma…”), its the joblessness, no real cap and trade, no real EFCA (what does labor get out of the DNC? I mean really….)that spells disaster for democrats in 2010. We lose both houses.
I like to think that we’re trying to prevent that by criticizing a really bad bill and working to improve it. I mean, if he wants to keep congressional majorities for the democrats. Perhaps that’s another secret deal that he’s not telling us about…I mean, if he’s trying to lose congressional majorities for the dems then Heckuva job there Barry…!
Well! first Marcy’s post and now this one. the progressives are being taken to the woodshed and marginalized as the “problem”.
I hope no one is still confused about Obama’s agenda here…or the center left agenda even. Any one disagreeing is a labeled a “kook”.
Look what they did to Dean….”irrational”.
On the razor’s edge again……..
I don’t believe this most recent condemnation is intended for those that are opposing this Bill. By using the term “Naderite,” Ms. Van den Heuvel is summoning the ire of mainstream Democratic Partisans, that bought the meme that Ralph Nader handed Bush the Presidency in 2000. That is the way the Party deflected attention from it’s own culpability in that disaster.
The way they’ve resurrected that anger periodically, reminds me of the way in which those of the right, have resurrected and re-assassinated the character of JFK over the decades. It’s a rage, borne of shame, from a Party that is devouring itself.
Irony abound.
There is a fundamental flaw in Katrina’s “big tent” rationale. I believe one must make a distinction between Progressive advocacy and Democratic Party advocacy.
Sometimes the two share common cause but when the Democratic Party attempts to enact legislation requiring working Americans to purchase products of dubious value from private corporations who COINCIDENTALLY contributed large sums to Democratic candidates, that can hardly be described as progressive.
Katrina is just doing her bit to lend a hand in the assisted political suicide of the Democratic Party. I am shocked by the willingness of so many of the party faithful to drive the party bus over the cliff. Just got back from holiday travels and from what I heard from friends and relatives, people hate this bill. How’s that going to help the party in November? If their concern is the success of the party first and foremost, they should be spending every waking moment of every day to get a good bill passed, not just any bill. This is self-defeating in so many ways and they just shut their eyes and whistle past the graveyard. I cannot fathom what they could possibly be thinking.
One thing I haven’t heard, though it’s hinted at above (“we’re about to fundamentally shift the relationships of governance”). While the right-wing is screaming about an alleged government takeover of health care, Congress is trying to let the insurance companies take over the government. In particular, if the so-called “reform” bill passes, the power of taxation will be at the disposal of the corporations.
The GOP would never kick its core base in the bible, why are the Democrats excused from kicking their core base in the uterus by liberals like KVH?
Jane,
Haven’t read the letter or KvH tweets. Won’t. Don’t particularly give a fuck what she thinks.
The message that the majority of Americans want health care when needed and not medical insurance is not getting through. It is not complicated.
Health care.
Not.
Medical insurance.
Thanks for continuing to fight the fight in the face of so much shit flinging.
I knew that Katrina decided to enable the corporatist sellouts among the Democratic Party when I got this email on Dec 16:
Frankly, Arianna Huffington has chosen a similar path, trying to give the huge failure a pass. Howard Dean’s not too much better.
Jane appears to be moving toward an alliance with populist-conservatives and possibly joining them to form a third party to fight the corporatist-dominated insider elites. Bad idea.
Only this time it’s not the “progressives.” People across the board hate this bill, and that has nothing to do with partisan politics.
I think that is a very important point. They’re equating “progressive agenda” with “Democratic party agenda.” They are often very different things.
Shorter Health Care Reform Wiki:
Spot on, Jane… the wealth transfer is enormous, and Audacity of Nope Administration is going to be a one-term entity. Back in the day Rahm grew up in politically the intertoobz were for porn and lonely hearts looking for love in all the wrong places. He doesn’t realize that the instantaneous nature of the medium puts a lie to him every time he moves his lips.
Obama, no. Dean/? 2012.
Shorter Katrina vanden Heuvel: “Jane, if you’d only surrender, I’d let you ride my pony.”
Jane, you are right to criticize a crappy bill and the powers that birthed it.
Katrina vanden Heuvel’s arguement is a quaint throwback to pre-netroots progressivism. Obviously, her strategy has failed, and badly.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
“Big tent. Divisions within progressive community can’t be wished away. Respect your views; worth respecting others’ views.”
did she send you a telegram.? LOL what a fraud.
Exactly.
It’s interesting that so many people here have mentioned that at get-togethers this year that people were talking about politics and health care in particular. Is it possible that Americans are really getting engaged at long last and seeing what’s going on?
I love how the Presidency is completely ineffectual. Apparently we could replace Obama with a bobble head doll and it would make no difference. Hell, we could have TomFuckingVilsack.
If anything good happens, its because of Obama.
If anything good that fails to happen, its because of Congress.
Well, she is part of the cocooned DC elite. What else could anyone expect? Another celebrity wannabee.
another one trumpeting the same narrative is Joan Walsh of Salon.com.
disappointing indeed, they all seem to have caved in to Rahm’s whipping.
Pelosi and the HOUSE seem to be on that path as well.
this bill may have some good for some people but ALOT of BAD for EVERYONE.
if I lose my job and collect unemployment insurance I will have no choice but to buy health insurance with it over paying my mortgage and food.
My wish for the New Year is that the House and Senate are unable to get the votes to pass the health care bills on the table.
What is being proposed is the most publicly damaging legislation ever to emerge from Congress.
Even Obama’s buddy Mike Bloomberg raises questions about it:
“They are not talking about reducing costs,” he added. “They’re talking about changing the first derivate, slowing the growth down. And when you look at where the cost savings are going to be, well, they’re going to cut something out of Medicare and Medicaid. Now anybody that runs for office will tell you, you don’t do that. I mean, the bottom line is it’s so politically explosive, it really would be a first time in the history of the world that they ever cut anything [from those programs].”
i think reality is flying into the fan of long established, liberal orthodoxies, which have decided (suprise suprise) that the imporatance of have a black president (finally), trumps every ill concieved and ill motivated bad thing he does, or will do. also yeah money. Katrina’s livelihood depends on her playing the libera-conservative media football game.
Pointing out the corporatist tendencies of the new administration is healthy.
particularly that the health bill was steered early.
there is also an argument that there was a need to get some of the big corporate guns aboard–read pharma or docs–to blunt the criticism and buy allies early.
i think that strategy has good and bad points. but they had to execute a plan.
right now, I agree with Jane. You dont stop fighting for a good bill. we dont have the last etchings even if we think we can see the sell out coming.
It is too soon to kill it, in my view, though arguing to kill it is a strategy to improve it.
I want the House progressives to stand up for some really good fixes and for their stuff–better subsidies, 2013, COBRA extension, more from the rich tax-cut trough swillers–but I also want reconciliation after that to get the stuff we missed or to break the filibuster rule.
if not now? when.
the goopers are the only ones mean enuff to use it, so why not lose it?
It is important to fight for the best bill possible. But to suggest that we not criticize Congress or the White House is to suggest that Congress and the White House are making the best, most honest effort they can to create the bill that works best for Americans, and that’s clearly not what’s happening.
In general terms, FWIW, this is why it’s so important to stress that we have 55 solid Senate votes for something better in reconciliation.
If the choice is between the Baucus Bill or nothing, we end up with the Baucus Bill.
If the choice is between the Baucus Bill and using the existing reconciliation instructions to get the most we can out of our 50+ majority in the Senate, we end up with:
- A robust public option
- A Medicare buy-in for those 55 to 64
- Reasonable subsidy levels to ensure affordability
- A funding mechanism that forces the wealthy to pay their fair share
- Changes to expand Medicaid
As long as the administration is able to sell the false dichotomy of “Baucus Bill vs nothing”, they’ll win the argument. We need to let folks know that there is a “something” as the alternative.
“leave barack aloooooneeeee!!!!!!”
the real operatives pulling the strings in Obama’s administration are Rahm, Summers, Geithner, Wall Street(Execs) and the MIC(Military Industrial Complex). Obama like Bush is just a front-end marionette.
the adminstration dealth with nothing but his corporate sponsors and it’s rediculous for this women to claim attacking this corporate tool is ” bad for the progressive agenda”
I’ll tell this tool what’s bad for the progressive agenda, his initials are B.O.
THIS IS NOT YOUR GRANDMOTHER AND GRANDFATHER DEMOCRATIC PARTY!
Democrats are in theory help the Working Man and Woman.
Republicans are about maintaining the status quo and helping the rich.
Clinton and his associates are destroying grandmother and grandfather democratic party.
However, the end of the CLINTON SICK IDEAS MAY MEET AN ABRUPT END. How many people do you see running around town talking about how they love the STATUS QUO TODAY.
REMEMBER THIS,
IT IS HARD TO FIND a CONSERVATIVES IN AN UNEMPLOYMENT LINE.
Obama current economic team, is going to make HOOVER LOOK LIKE A GENIUS IF THEY CONTINUE with their stupid ideas about fixing this Economic Depression/Great Recession.
OBAMA will soon be face with a decision BECOME FDR or BECOME HOOVER.
Chris Hedges says it best, the ILLUSION OF THE USA EMPIRE IS ABOUT TO CRASH and BECOME the REALITY OF A BROKE THIRD WORLD NATION.
A nation that IMPORTS more than it EXPORTS is not a SUPER POWER.
Clinton ideas work in 1990’s because NAFTA had not yet wipe out the USA MFG BASE.
NO USA MFG BASE will spell dome for anyone trying to maintain the STATUS QUO also the loss of WHITE COLLAR JOBS will STING TREMENDOUSLY. ( also let us not forget the 8 years of BUSH the HORRIBLE)
OBAMA either becomes a progressive or we are all going to think the 60’s was a time of peace and harmony in the USA!
Imagine how fun it would be to primary Obama.
Because she chose to ask for an investigation of Emmanuel with (shudder) Grovel Nosetwist? She was doing what folks who play and observe politics do, making possible what might not ever happen by talking to the opposition.
Because she talked to Nosetwist does not mean she agrees with him, rather she found common ground to move our agenda forward, in this case, getting Rahm’s actions put to scrutiny… he’s already got lobbyist-toady writ large on his back, now they just need to prove it affects his political decisions and all our futures.
IMO, this argument that KvH makes must be defeated on its merits before the path forward can be effectively forged.
It is an incredibly important discussion to have.
I would have never believed obama a marionette, but the proof is in the pudding and there he is moving his lips to go with the corporate puppeteer’s script
Hamsher: Here it comes again! Mindless obeisance to party authority figures is the ultimate priority! Anybody with an actual belief system or notion that real reform was supposed to happen needs to shut up, or you are a “Naderite”.
The Democratic Party is an utterly corrupt edifice.
And The Nation magazine? I’ve read it for years and years, but vanden Heuvel and the rest are utterly reliable buskers for the Democratic Party before they are reform agents of any sort.
KvH represents typical “liberal” Democratic Party thinking. So weak and ready to capitulate that she never gets what she really wants.
Stand your guns, Jane. If KvH keeps this shit up, she’s going to lose more Nation Subscribers, including this one.
“I’d rather have a Klansman in white in front of me than a white liberal behind me.”
(apologies to Malcolm X)
I believe kucinich is setting himself up for that play, let’s which him success
The harder the pushback the more I question the progressive instincts of the pushers. Every movement needs a group willing to firmly stake the outside edge. It’s the only way the movement can keep from being dragged to the “center” or beyond, or co-opted altogether. Progressives/liberals have had no such established group. Each of the major progressive groups at the time of the primaries has been swallowed into the veal pen. As a consequence, there is no entity left (aside from Jane and the FDL community) to anchor the Left. Those folks who value progressive/liberal ideals ought to have this huge backdoor channel open to Jane cheering her on, even if they feel they can’t – for some reason – cheer her on publicly. To excoriate Jane, and her community, in public could be viewed as an attempt to defeat the very principles for which they claim to share. Whether it’s done in the oozing words of Arrgh Paine, the quiet entreaty of Katrina vanden Heuvel, or the outrage of some of the Kos diarists. The whole de-linking phenomena is so “high school” I just want to shake some folks. It just boggles my mind. I simply don’t understand… Oh, for Christ’s sake, indeed.
You really hit the nail on the head when you say they are “equating the “progressive agenda” with “what’s politically advantageous for the President.””
The progressive pragmatist would say that while the Democratic party is imperfect, it’s the most realistic vehicle through which we can achieve our progressive agenda. And that is probably true.
But that doesn’t mean that the Democratic party is always being that vehicle, which is the base assumption being made here. The viewpoint espoused in that letter is one that presumes that to use the party as a vehicle does not require you also actively steer that vehicle (which you do by criticizing it when it veers off course).
The insider sources of this sentiment are pushing it for purely cynical, self-interested purposes. That comes as no surprise. Progressives pushing it are probably doing so out of a simple lack of thought on the topic.
I can understand the interest in not hurting a president who might be your best bet, imperfect as it is, to enact your agenda, or as close to it as possible. Sure. But it’s incorrect to imply that we shouldn’t simultaneously be trying to force him to be an even better bet at enacting that agenda by attempting to force his hand politically.
After all, what do we really have to lose anyways? This health care bill, for example, was clearly going to pass in some form or another, and we clearly got “or another” as it is. We run no real risk of derailing the process, because the party leadership has far too much vested political interest in it going forward to let that happen. The only real outcomes before us are succeeding to shape the legislation in a more progressive manner, or failing to do so. But we can’t succeed if we don’t try.
Jane,
As the author of the “very slick PR letter” I realize that your post is not addressed to me, however I thought that I should comment.
I am an individual living and working in Orange County California I am not involved in politics or public relations. The letter I posted was faithful to the intent I professed. I respect you, your opinion and your voice and I believe my letter made that abundantly clear.
I will post a response as to why I view the bill more favorable to nothing tonight (sorry for the delay, but I work during the day)
R. Paine
The reality is that corporate control in the US is now complete, that even 85 percent of Democrats agreeing on a policy (strong public option) must bow to those few Senators who represent the corporate control.
The reality is that the Democratic Party is dominated in its actions by those who represent corporate power, and are engaged in the continuing effort to shift wealth from the middle class and the poor to the corporate elite. Support for business in the US was once to be good for the country, now it is hurting America as millions of citizens are suffering deprivation under corporate control.
The reality is that the corporatists have won every argument– the progressives had a voice before elections.
The reality is, they have already won and this is no longer a democracy.
The Senate health care bill and the whole charade of its passing is the demonstration before our very eyes that no matter how strong the popular support for a policy, the corporatists will win.
That is the reality they are asking us to accept. Shouldn’t we make them say it out loud.
It’s pretty much nothing other garbage that this letter is an attempt to “discredit or silence” anyone.
That’s a sad sentence.
If the bill is bad and Ms. vanden Heuvel is correct in saying Obama had nothing to do with it then he is failing at his task for lack of effort. If he had something to with it or was in the hidden driver’s seat then of course he is simply unconcerned with the negative parts of the bill. When given one of the many chances to repudiate parts of the so-called reform in public he does not. Therefore he either likes it or is not willing to tell the truth or is not capable of determining the bad parts. Since he is a very bright person the options left open are that he likes it or that he is lying about liking it.
Katrina’s response appears to be a classic example of being so shell-shocked by previous decisions that she just wants all of the controversy to just go away. Since she certainly talks the lefty talk we can assume she probably just wants the Obama that she imagines she voted for to succeed. The problem must be in the lack of support for Obama and the Democrats in general. If we just pretend the Democrats care about the voters more than lobbyists cash all of the problems will be fixed.
She seems to believe that we just need to let Obama be Obama. Obviously most of the people watching the FDL as say that from day one the only time he has appeared to compromise his actions with his rhetoric is when he was using the words for cover.
Fairytales can come true, it can happen to you. Visualize world peace. It depends upon what the definition of “is” is.
We went through this thought process many times before only it was dominated by the Republican intellectuals of the time. We appear to have swept so far of the center line that the Democrats are the new Republicans and the Republicans are the new Birchers. Woe to those that lack a corporate sponsor.
“In the United States today, we have more than our share of the nattering nabobs of negativism.”
Spiro T. Agnew.
Bad ole Naterites, who gave them permission to speak anyway?
There is no excuse for a person who claims to be a liberal or even true conservative to support the mandate.
“Politics is the art of the possible- about compromise and being pragmatic.”
This is the playing field championed by Jane, and we should all fucking learn to adhere to it’s wisdom.
Anyone who disagrees, should leave this forum or at least have the common sense to STFU.
I am looking forward to that response, post it on the seminal so we can all participate in the discussion
please read empty wheel’s post that jane linked to at the top before you post your diary so you might address her concerns as well
Agree.
Walsh proved her bona fides in 2003 when she diminished the grassroots community campaign supporting Matt Gonzalez in San Francisco as naive progressives while throwing her weight behind the styrofoam Gavin Newsom, and we know how well THAT ended.
Like perris above, I look forward to your response.
I totally agree
If that were all I see – an alliance with Norquist to address a single concern – I would totally agree with you. She’s right on this point. I said so and defended her like a crzy person over at dkos.
But then, among a few others by leading voices, we get a post like this one from Jane yesterday, in which she writes approvingly of stuff like this:
Because I’m seeing arguments being made by others that it’s time to bring together outsiders in an epic fight against insiders, I will be addressing it in a diary.
In the meantime, if my characterization of Jane’s strategy (assuming she has one) for 2010 and beyond is wrong, please ask her to correct it:
Bullseye.
Note to the “O” pologists: The change I voted for and donated money to last year was not moving obscene profits and a higher proportion of my income from Big Oil companies over to Big Pharma and Insurance Companies. At least under the last administration, if I did not want to be held hostage and pay obscene Gas and Oil prices, I could stay home or not drive. With this new administration, I am going to be forced by law to pay a higher percentage of my income to monopolies.
Not this liberal, not this time. I worked too hard and gave too much energy for this sell out they are trying to ram down my throat. No Thank you please.
Quoting from the letter:
Please consider the progressive agenda as a whole while in the heat of each individual battle, your voice is respected and desperately needed on our side.
Last time I checked, HCR was an “individual battle.” There’s also financial bailouts/reform, Afghan escalation, civil liberties issues, environment, etc. I’m not seeing much (but more of the same) from the Administration in any of these areas.
So unless I’m missing something somewhere, the “progressive agenda as a whole” has been being addressed here.
Sorry Katrina, you missed it on this one. Cushy TV gigs starting to distort your vision just a bit?
Jane, Thank you for keeping up this fight. Whether or not you think this is a bill worth passing, it is not time to give up or give in. Giving up (as Katrina wants to do) signals that either a) this bill is good enough and that there is nothing to improve, b) all is lost and there is no hope, or c) it is not worth fighting for.
(a) is clearly not true – nobody thinks this bill is perfect – even Obama says he only got 95% of what he wants. Maybe he should fight for the last 5%
(c) is clearly not the case – 30+ million people uninsured, thousands die each year (more than 9/11) because they cannot afford health care (not insurance, care). It is definitely worth fighting for.
That leaves (b). I have seen basketball teams come from 22 points down with 1:30 left in the game to win (Dean Smith’s days at UNC). Nothing is lost unless you let it be lost.
The bill is not perfect. Affordable health care is worth fighting for.
“Never give up! Failure and rejection are only the first step to succeeding.” – Jim Valvano
Wow. Lots of my heros getting feet of clay over HCR.
Thank you for your consideration. I think we’re well aware of the arguments for and against the bill, however. I’d be more interested in seeing you address why you think reporting on the President’s role in crafting the health care bill is “Naderite” and “hurts the progressive agenda.”
Sounds like KvH wants to be brought into the Big Tent only to be kicked to the curb…….again.
I’m with Jane, there’s little good accomplished w/o controversy.
Keep stirrin’ it up….
Katrina vanden Heuvel is wrong, wrong, wrong. If she wants to play the “can’t we all be friends” nonsense, then she should join the other party…oh, that’s right, they don’t play.
But she should stop pissing down our backs and telling us it’s mere rain.
Team Obama lied to us, and I take that personally. I had no use for him on any issue except healthcare, and I didn’t even like his position on that. But he was strong and vocal about his intentions, and he got my donations and vote.
I’m furious with this White House. People will continue to die, continue to go bankrupt, continue to be denied needed healthcare. And all because of this White House and the liars that infest it.
Katrina vanden Heuvel’s drivel should be reserved for her family and friends, who will politely accept it. As for the rest of us, put a cork in it, Katrina.
“The progressive pragmatist would say that while the Democratic party is imperfect, it’s the most realistic vehicle through which we can achieve our progressive agenda. And that is probably true.”
Ive lived long enough to see that is NOT true. The democrats are as complicit in selling our govenment to powerful private interests as the republicans. the crumbs in the “goody bags” of creeps like rahm emanuelle are no longer a reason to continue supporting the lie that the democrats”care” more than the republicans. i think this is the real message behind the most cynical vitriolic repulican attacks; that the dems are just like they are, only they pretend not to be. and its true.
She is rather hapless isn’t she?
How can the progressive agenda be hurt anymore than it already has been this year? We are simply still in the first stage for the most part… first they (particularly the Pres and Senate, but the House too) ignore you.
If this whole twit-attack isn’t one giant stinking pile of straw-corpses I don’t know what could be.
The only tiny chance we have of having Obama’s next 3 years be any better than his disastrous first year is to criticize him for his substantial failings thus far.
Jane is leading the charge and doing so brilliantly. What Katrina vanden Heuvel is doing here is disappointing and surprising.
I’ve never called for a third party. I don’t think it’s mandatory that progressives work strictly within the Democratic party, but since our political structure lacks the ability to form a coalition government, a third party is not going to be efficacious here like it is in Sweden.
As anyone who’s ventured into the fever swamp of anti-FDL comments on other liberal-progressive blogs knows, Obama’s true believers are every bit as deranged as Bush’s.
“(a) is clearly not true – nobody thinks this bill is perfect – even Obama says he only got 95% of what he wants. Maybe he should fight for the last 5%”
thanks but i’d rather he didnt. the 5% he “didnt get” represents the only good part of the bill
Ater years of subscribing to the Nation I allowed my suscription to lapse because of my disgust at their endorsement of Obama. Recently I broke down and resubscribed. Their bill for $20 sits on my desk right behind the monitor. Instead of the $20 subscription fee, the Nation will get a piece of my mind and another, final, cancellation. FDL is getting my $20 ASAP.
What syolles said!
Per ShotoJamf in comment 71, I am dying to learn what progressives are supposed to be getting back in return.
This is great.
Apparently, voting to ban drug-reimportation or abortion funding for low-income women doesn’t hurt the progressive agenda.
All Democrats need to realize and accept the fact that Barack Obama is opposed to the progressive agenda and actively undermined the effort to reform health care by intentionally producing a bill that will generate windfall profits for corporations at the expense of the financially distressed middle class. The bill is by design a time bomb to destroy the middle class and voter support for progressive democrats. It is a political trap devised by cynical and mean-spirited people who could care less about health care and the plight of the uninsured. A special place in Hell is reserved for those who would dare seek to destroy progressives and their causes by deliberately baiting the hook of self-destruction with the plight of the uninsured.
This nonsense about a big tent and this is the best bill possible must be rejected for the utter bullshit that it is and those responsible for this horrific and shameful bill must be exposed for what they have done.
sad but true, I was personally attacked on another site from a dear member of our family for oposing obama
hit me right in the gut
Mission accomplished!
‘Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision he makes and should just support that, you know, and be faithful in what happens.’ – Plus ce change.
…But who is the puppet…And who is the puppetmaster?
;>)
Thank you! We have to keep Jon Walker in pens to chew.
That’s worth repeating.
It still amazes me that so many “liberals” have been thoroughly and completely bamboozled. Putting a corporate friendly “Dem” in the WH was a brilliant move, and it doesn’t help that we’ve got a couple handfuls of DINOs in Congress helping him along.
Thankful for all of you here at FDL who can see what’s going on. You’re definitely not alone.
This shouldn’t surprise anyone. Look back at the history of The Nation and its ties to the Democratic Party during Reconstruction. Totally against anything that would have extended the franchise to poor whites or recently freed slaves.
Marcy is right on the mark when she talks about neofeudalism. That’s what this whole Reagan Revolution has been about, rolling back any progressive legislation starting with the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, crippling unions’ power with the anti-strike provisions of the Taft-Hartley Act passed over Truman’s veto, deregulation of just about everything but most importantly the public utility grid, straight through to ending welfare, taking away bankruptcy protection from middle class families with an onerous means test, outright theft by Wall Street banks with the collusion of the Fed and Treasury, and now this piece of shit legislation.
The icing on the cake will be the deficit commission that will be used to weaken Social Security even though Social Security isn’t part of the budget but serves as a convenient stash of money for presidents, kind of like raiding the kids’ piggy bank but using Treasury notes for IOUs.
Make no mistake about it. “They” intend to impoverish the rest of us, to have us working until we die or as close to it as they can get, while our retirement money sits in their offshore accounts and supports their lavish lifestyles.
Since the late 80s I never considered The Nation or TNR as anything but rough textured toilet paper. This only serves to convince me I was right.
Keep up the pressure, Jane.
Thank you jane, sunshine on the rot is the best. The WH is the crook here. If you add up the totality of the WH actions, you have a pretty good track-record of the betrayal, the breaking or violation of a presumptive social contract, trust, or confidence that produces moral and psychological conflict within. Careful jane! You are a leader, that makes you a target for the corporate attack dogs. Stay true and keep fighting!
Neither does elevating the bargaining position of the odious Joe Lieberman. Stunning in its hypocrisy, that argument.
I dropped The Nation a number of years ago but would like a good Progressive magazine. Anyone have a suggestion?
Well, there is an awful lot in both the Senate and the House bills and anyone who claims to understand it all is lying. Yes, there is probably some good in both and there probably will be some good to come out of the final product when it crosses the President’s desk. And, certainly those focused primarily or exclusively on moving the political chits around the board (vanden Heuvel and her ilk), will see this as an overall net gain; it can be sold as health “reform” and no administration has ever accomplished that before so the end justifies the means and it’s all good…right?
Now, for those of us who are not creatures of political game, the phrase still burning our ears is, “We can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” Well, my response has been, “Yes, but we should let the gilded turd be the enemy of the good.”
The resulting health bill might have some good things, but it is in no way stacking up to be good legislation. It is stacking up to be the biggest government directed giveaway to corporate interests since Dick Cheney had his private meetings with Energy moguls. Yes there is a gold, shiny exterior to some of the potential benefits this legislation might hold, enough to make people like vanden Heuvel hold her nose, but it is still shit on the inside and it already smells like it.
I don’t think that the idea of working with right-leaning civil libertarians is an altogether bad thing for our country at this juncture. The very fabric of our Constitution was breached by the Bush/Cheney terror team, and we have a lot of work reclaiming our heritage as a Nation of Laws, work I might never see completed in my lifetime because of the failure of civil libertarians to overcome the bedwetting authoritarians in their quest for power and eternal domination of our country. Witness the recent events after Northwest 253, our air travel system is tied up in knots. But that’s beside the point.
Jane (and FDL) have been one of the few honest brokers of information and opinion in this political climate since around 2002. I don’t think that her or FDL’s taking a longer view of alliances and probing the possible is at all out of line with what we as Progressives (which may or may not include doctrinaire Democrats) need to do in the next few election cycles.
Hi. I’m not progressive, I’m libertarian ‘leaning’, however, I started noticing under Bush that progressives and we have some objects of roiling disgust in common, such as institutionalized corporatism on the part of our so called representatives.
This paragraph is a disclaimer. I think the health bill sucks, also. Unlike you, I see no way to have a universal health bill that does not impose on my ideas of liberty. Selfishly, I wouldn’t mind living with a real universal health plan, supposing their was funding, but long term I absolutely don’t see funding being there, with all the payments to special interests along the way. I see even what you truly want (sole payer) as another pyramid scheme to get us through the current crises to a point when we are so bankrupt the obligations are walked away from entirely, which I don’t consider honest. I’m not pretending I think govt CAN be our saviour – it has no competition. I understand progressives think it MUST be. However, I do agree that government should represent the people, not private profit centers.
So….any chance we can get together on some of this, constructively? Because Bernie Sanders or Kucinich would have written a better plan than this, and Ron Paul would have funded current obligations from overseas adventures and would have returned taxes to the people to have local/state programs or none, as they locally wished. The libertarian position being that individuals can better impact policy on a local level, and keep government accountable. The money spent under any of these three would at least have been for the benefit of the people.
Is there any way to make that trait, representation of the people, the real touchstone for a candidate? Currently, the touchstone seems to be the flavor of rhetoric they spin when they sell out to special interests, IMHO. We’d disagree on many things if we worked together on points of view we share, but we have SO FAR to go to get representative government, it seems we should be able to work together at least where we don’t have a separate ‘horse in the race’. I can only think of a dozen races in 2010 where there is a candidate I really care about.
Thoughts?
Isn’t that exaclty what the corporatist Republicans and the corporatist Democrats have done, formed a coalition to abuse the power of government and/or turn government into the puppet of the corporations?
The rift between the politics of our leaders and the political views of the rest of society is so great that, in fact, the two-party system of Republicans and Democrats has morphed into a different system that is made up of one party serving a ruling, plutocratic elite on the one hand and, on the other, everyone else, the disenfranchised masses who think they’re being given real choices, though for the most part they are not.
What a fool you are.
the problem has always been that we’re not willing to join with others in common cause. We don’t have to like everything they do…but when we agree we most certainly should work together.
Should we not work with say India because we don’t like that they have deals with China?
This is how we shake the corporate status quo…by working with others in common cause.
Hiya Boo! Hope you had a great holiday : )
O sister, my Sister! Is this a case of the body politic being stripped bare, or what? Excellent contextualization. Note how the attacks go after the identity of the messenger, rather than the message itself. Reminds me of the way the then-Bush White House went after Scott McClellan, saying things like, “That’s not the Scott McClellan we knew.” Jon Stewart summed it up, saying, they’re attacking you by saying you aren’t really you.
Sounds like a Sith mind trick, to me. Don’t they know? Sith mind tricks don’t work on Jedi. Their inept attempts to jack our opinion only strip them naked.
Another expert example of busting myths even as the jackers fire them at us. I bow in your virtual direction, o sister, my Sister.
I wonder what Nation writer Katha Pollitt has to say about this one?
Usually she takes strong feminist positions, at least in the Bush era.
I urge people to read the commentaries on Obama from the following who have been consistent before and after his election win:
Bruce A. Dixon
Margaret Kimberley
Glen Ford — All three write for the Black Agenda Report
Paul Street –wrote a book on Barack Obama and the Future of American Politics. Street can be read at ZNet or ZSpace
People who write for the International Socialist Review from
Lee Sustar
Sharon Smith
Sherry Wolf
Anthony Arnove
Lance Selfa
It’s funny though that Naomi Klein, Alexander Cockburn, and Jeremy Scahill whom both write for the Nation think nothing of criticizing Obama at all.
I do not agree with Katrina vanden Heuvel’s take at all on this one but, she has been a consistent ObamaBot but she has allowed her writers to be very critical of Obama.
It’s good that you have exposed this Jane….But there are still writers at the Nation whom shine the light on the Obama administration’s crimes. Katrina is not one of those people.
That’s why I think it’s important, as I’ve stated before, for “Progressives” to say loud & clear, “this is NOT our bill. We do NOT support it.”
And most importantly, “here are the REASONS. This is what we think is going to happen under this bill, and we can’t be a part of this screwing of the American people.”
Thanks, Jane, for doing this. [Just saw yours @ 29.]
Z Magazine and the International Socialist Review
That’s pretty good as a demonstration of how to work with others.
Start out with “What a fool you are.”
Glenn Greenwald explained it all in his column on the 18th entitled “The underlying divisions in the healthcare debate.” In it, he concludes:
“Even if one grants the arguments made by proponents of the health care bill about increased coverage, what the bill does is reinforces and bolsters a radically corrupt and flawed insurance model and an even more corrupt and destructive model of “governing.” It is a major step forward for the corporatist model, even a new innovation in propping it up. How one weighs those benefits and costs — both in the health care debate and with regard to many of Obama’s other policies — depends largely upon how devoted one is to undermining and weakening this corporatist framework (as opposed to exploiting it for political gain and some policy aims).”
That’s the bottom line, you can’t IMHO be both a “progressive” and a supporter of the pro-corporatist model a la Clinton, Rahm, Obama and the DLC. If you ain’t with us you’re against us. And it’s way past time for real “progressives” to just say no to supporting the corporatist Democrats.
WHO says The Nation is progressive? I dropped my subscription to them a LONG time ago. Here’s just more evidence that they are missing the point.
And all of these people who say you can’t criticize Obama: are you guys out of your minds? He’d better know that we are NOT pleased, and I for one, will not vote for him if he signs this Mafia Protection Payout called Healthcare reform. It’s as close to Reform as bush’s Clean Skies was to green legislation.
Maybe if we have Sarah Palin as President, the Democrats will finally grow spines – oops. I remember, they didn’t do that under bush….. (and besides, REAL progressive, and Proud Liberals should be more informed about how our vote doesn’t count anyway: AuditAz.org;bradblog.com)
It’s time for a 2 party system again!
Dear President Obama,
Please take note. This bill has accomplished what you could not. The opposition is bipartisan.
Sincerely,
tsuki
I said work with others in common cause.
He’s against my cause so I attack him. Why should I do otherwise?
oh man can you imagine the flying nails and hair pulling and shreiking then. yeah that would most definately be fun.
THanks. Will look at those 2.
“odius joe” i like it. almost as good as “rape gurney joe”.
I’d very much like to see someone run on a campaign something like, “Democracy is built on votes, not Dollars.”
Nationally publicly-funded elections aren’t likely, but I’ve started to study state election rules in the areas around me, and I think in specific cases it could be achieved. That at the very least would help get populists into leadership positions.
The only other option, as I see it, is to do some in-depth field-testing on running the cheapest possible campaigns that can succeed. Optimizing expenditures on only the most influential forms of campaigning.
“…the responsibility the president bears for crafting this bill.”
Yes, the buck stops at the Oval Office – if only for a short while before making its way into insurance company coffers.
Hmm… or, “Democracy, not Dollars”
That’s a better slogan.
Many reasons.
If you can’t think of them, try to remember simply that Hamsher was praising Obama a year ago as the most progressive person that could be elected president.
Minds change…
I don’t think that’s outside the possible at this point. What “hope” do I have? Where’s the “change” other than the enrichment of the Insurance Industry?
And that has to be very frightening to the pols. I hope they have enough sense to see what’s happening.
Good work, Jane, and disappointed in KvH & The Nation (although not totally surprised). Progressives, whether viewed as “extreme” or not, need to keep pushing and fighting against the corporate machine, which apparantely is ruling/running Obama & his various operatives inside the Beltway.
I agree with at least one prior post that says something like: leftists and Dems seem to be told that because BHO is partially black, we should just support him no matter what – on the thinking that electing an African American as POTUS is “enough.”
I am still (somewhat) happy that this country actually did elect an AA as POTUS – something that I never thought I’d see in my lifetime. But sadly, that is NOT enough. Keep pushing that boulder up the hill, Jane: I (and many others) are right behind you in scrum formatation.
This so-called HCR bill is bullshit; a corporate giveaway; and all Democrats and progressives everywhere should be ashamed to even recognize it as some kind of “reform” or “good thing” or whatever. We gave away/caved in or were forced to accept far too much rightward push under Bill Clinton. We have GOT to push back now. It’s imperative.
Obama and friends have made the calculation that a weak-tea bill, such as passed the Senate, will solve some of the worst problems of the health care status quo, and will keep Big Health in league with (or at least not opposing) the Democratic Party. If that’s the most Obama wants, there’s no point in holding progressive Dems hostage to try to get more.
We’ll just have to see whether, going forward: 1) the Senate bill (or something close to it) gets enacted into law; and, if so: 2) can the Dems sell it to the ’10 electorate as a reason to return them to power; and 3) will Big Health in fact keep its side of the bargain? Oh, and I guess it’ll be interesting to see whether the actual health care system is improved, although I guess we won’t really be able to tell that before 2014.
Would she have more credibility criticizing Obama if she had supported McCain and the Vapid Governor instead?
Just curious.
Until a few weeks ago, fdl posters were regularly attacking single payer advocates (and vice versa). So I suppose vanden Heuvel’s screed can be seen as something similar. The thing that is fairly painful but instructive that has come out of this healthcare debate is that it really helps us understand what is what and who is who. We can see for instance that Congress contains no more than maybe 5 progressives out of 535 members, if that. We have seen the splits between the dyed in the wool, Obamabot Democrats and progressives. How labor remains scared of its own shadow, wanting to come out against Obamacare but not able to come out four square against it, just sort of kind of, but not let’s work to kill this thing and punish those who vote for it. We have seen too the splits in our own fdl community, and what I think were some unfair bannings of single payer advocates. And now we see the split between a 9 to 5 progressive like vanden Heuvel and 24/7 progressives like us.
This just seems like the old “pissing to the left” just attack those lefties for street cred. I really don’t get this sort of rally around the president and this bad bill.
First, we assume that to attack the president for his lazy and sedate support for all things progressive is a bad thing, like he, the effing president of the united states cannot defense himself. Seriously, the former Senator, former Harvard Law Review, former professor, now president cannot intellectually defend himself from attacks.
Second, we have to assume attacking him weakens him and harms our own interests. Well most of his poll declines are not with the right (which was never on board), but with the left that feels sold out. Additionally, when during this first year has he promoted our interests? Ever? We are “harming” something we never had to begin with.
Third, is it not a good thing to sort of draw a line in the sand with this president, whip congress, and try to get something better in the future. Assume we lost the healthcare fight, a motivated and angry left might still be able to get something of value in the next year, but instead we are asked to deflate, calm down, and go with this — ensuring more messes like the HCR bill.
Back off the “fool” bullshit.
Debate someone who’s debating openly and honestly like an adult, or [edited by mod].
Working with opponents and competitors to shake up the corporate status quo is fine. I have been more than clear on my agreement with Jane on that point.
Beyond that, joining opponents and competitors in supporting candidates who, if they were to win elections, will hold seats in government, for example, is a bad idea. Regardless of what I think of Jane personally, she’s right on politically, at least when it comes to the issues and what should be progressives’ concerns. So if that were her strategy – to find common cause and go shopping for candidates together -, I’d very much like to save her from a course that’s not only doomed to ridicule, but would be doomed to failure of epic proportions.
PS–I have been reading The Nation for about 25 years. I hardly think you can fairly or accurately portray them as corporate lackeys.
Indeed minds change. But very rarely are they thru forums like this. the reason Jane changed her mind was because Obama proved himself not to be Progressive, not because someone came here and argues that he wasn’t a Progressive.
I’ll not hold back. Truth is truth, and it’s time we call things by their proper names. For example I will continue to call Obama a cowardly corporate sellout because that is what he is. I don’t care how many Obamabots it offends.
My concern is more rallying the troops we have, not trying to win over those who can’t be won over.
“Politics is the art of the possible- about compromise and being pragmatic.”
It’s time to get off this beat up Harry Reid wagon (he adhered to the reality of the above quote) and pass the bill?!
The pols are not particularly concerned about public opinion, if they were they’d have crafted a better bill. They believe with sufficient campaign funding they can spin like crazy and people will believe what they are told.
Not ALL the people but enough.
Onitgoes is a great screen name, becuase on – it – goes. Even knowing what i know now i would have voted for Obama, but the greatest respect i can pay to to history is to treat him like any other politician, and so on it goes.
I’ve been thinking that Obama was going to be a one-term president but then a light went on in my feeble brain.
The ultimate goal of this administration besides giving more of our money to the thieves on Wall Street and Big Pharma, is to do away with Social Security. Let’s be real, a Republican could never do it but Obama, well, he and Rahmbo can get away with it.
I don’t think Obama will serve just one term any more, only because Social Security is the target and there isn’t enough time left to gut it before the campaign in 2011-2012. But watch out come January 2013. The centennial anniversary of the Federal Reserve will be the year that Social Security and what remains of the social safety net for millions of people becomes a casualty in this continuing class war being waged against us.
Labor still thinks that EFCA will actually happen. They are also in denial about how terribly bad the tax on benefits will be for its members and the middle class. I think you will see a brawl (and kind of already have with the SEIU) for the heart of labor. For too long they have just gone along with the Democrats and got nothing in return. Seriously what was the last major change to the NLRA? 1947′s Taft-Hartley?
Jane Hamsher has so far represented my views on a variety of issues. She is vocal and has a forum which I am so glad that she uses. Many have the opportunity but fail to express the truths to powere that is required to obtain a true sense of reality.
It doesn’t really surprise me that the same democratic establishment that promoted the ‘Nader cost Gore the presidency’ myth in the first place would now want Jane to shut up and be a good soldier.
No, she simply would have had less credibility to erode.
The present campaign is a mess and rife with personal attacks against perceived enemies and when you respond to criticism of your tactics by decrying them as a personal attack, you screwing yourself into the ground.
Attila–
Sounds like a plan. Next time my inbox contains a solicitation from The Nation to renew, I will IMMEDIATELY reply that since $20 discretionary funds are scarce, I must choose between The Nation and FDL. I choose FDL!
Although I did not write the post, I think the use of the term Naderite reflects a political stance, not a substantive one. The goal here is to ostracize critics of the bill just as the Democratic establishment has tried to ostracize Nader and silence his critiques of the Democratic Party.
Their goal here is to try to silence health reform critics in order to keep Democrats from taking a beating in the 2010 elections, by re-positioning the reform legislation as positive instead of suicidal.
Since it is not going into effect for three years, those more worried about the electoral future of Democrats up for re-election than getting adequate health care for all Americans are hoping that they can glide through the 2010 elections before voters figure out how catastrophic the legislation really is.
But I think that this tactic will not work, despite the attempts of the editor of The Nation to pre-empt criticsm.
Very quickly the enormous transfer to the private insurance industry of private funds from people forced to buy the insurance, and public funds ripped out of Medicare and Medicaid, is going to become common knowledge. Mike Bloombergs statement about how the legislation does this is only the beginning.
I predict that despite the efforts to deflect criticism from the left, the political fortunes of Obama and his cronies in Congress, and those running on the Democratic ticket in 2010 and 2012, are going to plummet due to their association with this publicly devastating legislation.
.
sorry sir that is my honest opinion of you if you meant what you said. It was a foolish thing to say and that makes you a fool. If my words offend you to fucking bad. I have the right to my opinion and for it to be offensive.
[Modnote: you don't have the right to insult fellow commenters, discuss ideas and refrain from the ad hominems everybody, thank you.]
I’ve not seen her do that at all, and I don’t know where you got it from. It seems drawn out of thin air, which is again foolish. I’ve seen her say she will vote for a Republican who holds progressive values. So will I. Progressive is more than just party.
I don’t see how that’s doomed at all. It’s never been tried before. It’s in fact what the status quo has been afraid of for years. They’re terrified of populist outrage, and for once the far left and the far right agree in some populist ideas.
We have more in common than we think.
I have always found it difficult to take Katrina seriously. Her arguments and positions on TV vs. conservative commentators has usually been flaccid and ineffectual. Obama is weak. He caves to the criticism of the RIGHT and whines about criticism from the LEFT.
Hey, Rahmbo and Dumbo! You are not entitled to my support, my vote, or my silence. Corruption flows from the top.
You guys are incorrigible. Not to mention recalcitrant. There, take that.
Katrina and Krugman have both been allowed on the Roundtable and have talked right over George Will. Shrilly (KvH) and authoritatively (PK). They have credibility. Gravitas. When are you going to start listening to your betters?
There, that’s better. Get back in line. And if you want to speak, raise your hand for permission.
As eCAHNomics said above (73): “Wow. Lots of my heros getting feet of clay over HCR.”
Yep. Separating the sheep from the goats.
And under Rahm’s guidance, this has become their entire strategy. Meet with the corporate interests first [PhARMA & drug mfg.], figure out what they want, draft legislation to meet their needs. Oh, and get some $$$$ to support your side.
Sounds like it was taken directly from the Republican playbook, which as I recall, Rahm has admitted admiringly it was.
Dude, you just scared me more than telling me GW Bush was going to get re-elected on a Palin/Bush ticket. I can see that scenario playing out with his close relationships with the Contributing Banksters, and it’s not taking all that much imagination.
I hate that meme. Can someone please point to me what Gore said that was to get me all a tingle? Was it the SS “lockbox?” Or more charisma free mealy-mouthed language?
You know I’ll say this that i voted for nader, but only because i live in kentucky, if i was in a battleground it would be for gore. That having been said at 2000 I was willing to vote against someone (re bush). Now I’m ready to vote FOR something, in 2010 ill go to the polls and vote for no one. It’s not like this president was a radical change from the last, this one cant at least talk in complete sentences.
The person that you’re calling a fool is mostly onboard with the agenda here and calling Knoxville a fool while talking about coalition building is confusion.
Jane,
I suppose you could take the position that the chastisement of people who find strong objections to the Senate bill and rightly place the blame for it on Obama shows that those criticism are striking uncomfortably close to home. And means that those valid criticisms should continue regardless of those chastisements.
I would further argue that we should press ahead with steps meant to derail the worst aspects of this bill which you rightly point out is the mandated transfer of our wealth to private companies. Allowing the government that right is a step toward a fascist state. And leaves us in a worse position than if no bill was passed at all. By that measure alone we have compounded our problems and put ourselves in a deeper whole.
I encourage you to continue pointing out how Obama is to blame for this odious bill for the very fact that he must be stopped. He is the problem and as such is to be strongly criticised instead of protected and sheltered. That would be insane and counter to reason.
It is useful
There is a lot of good writing at the Nation.
However, inextricably linked in my mind with the Nation is Christopher Hitchens. Hitchens has been possibly the most poorly judged political crossover in the history of philosophy-switching. Has anyone ever been so profoundly wrong on any issue as important as Iraq? I’m still reeling from that.
Huh, Bush/Cheney were chumps when it comes to breaching our Constitution. Obama, in one sentence, wiped it out entirely.
No American any longer has any rights under the Constitution. With a simple statement by the President, and now supported by the SCOTUS, any American can be designated by the President as a “non-person” and therefore not granted any rights of “persons” per the Constitution.
Bush/Cheney is sooooo last decade, when it comes to trashing the Constitution.
I can only judge what I see, and his post was foolish if he meant it. I’m happy he agrees with the platform, but that means nothing if he’s unwilling to really try and push it. For to long Progressives have bitched quietly.
Hurting the progressive agenda… let’s see…
-Who was against FISA with retroactive immunity, but voted for it?
-Who “reached across to wingnuts” and proposed Judd Greg have a cabinet level position?
-Who negotiated a deal with PHrMa in secret instead of on C-SPAN as promised?
-Who kept Bush’s chief warmaker in his job at the pentagon?
-Who promised to close Guantanamo by the end of next month, but you know that isn’t happening now?
Yep, that was Jane Hamsher, vigorously befouling the progressive agenda.
/snark
Yep.
Oh, and Jane Hamsher and “Naderite” don’t go so well together. Ha ha ha. Yellowsnapdragon is a Naderite who’s learned a lot from Jane Hamsher about how to more effectively participate in the political system.
I think it’s starting to hit them where it hurts and the Fanny-Freddie investigation is really headline grabbing. Ultimately it is the real fight, defeating the Republicans was a foregone conclusion, defeating the enemy within, not so much.
Won over to what, exactly?
Rally the troops? Do I really need to introduce myself to you? All I have every done was fight through my confusion and frustration in order to understand what I don’t understand, work hard to support what I can support (which is the vast majority of what everyone at FDL is doing), and try to convince others that they’re wrong when I think they’re wrong.
We should be able to completely see eye to eye on changing ballot access laws, shouldn’t we? And access to debates? What Ron Paul was trying to do when he endorsed ‘principled third party candidates’ and specifically Nader, McKinney, Baldwin and Barr (the latter of whom I actually would not put in that category, myself) was to push back to representation of the people.
He maintained his structure from the campaign (note map of Campaign for Liberty web page users – w/ 200,000 active members) [can I link the current map here? I'll try: http://www2.clustrmaps.com/counter/maps.php?url=http://www.campaignforliberty.com ] And there are about 20,000 precinct leaders, I believe.
I don’t know your organizational structures, but I would love to learn what they are. We should cross post. (Ron Paul’s aren’t the only forums, but his are well kept up and organized.] And ballot access, civil liberties, representation, anti-corporatism….. we’d be active in that whoever led the charge, and you could be active when we do…
Also, not as advertisement of a particular candidate per se (with whom you probably have issues), but enough people have ‘google searches’ for Ron Paul that if you post his name in what you write, it will get to us.
main web page: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/
One of my friends and I have jointly stopped exchanging emails after I told him that I did not think that minding my betters was an acceptable option.
Krugman, Kennedy and Harkin (??) are all knowing and their approval is sufficient in all things in which they are experts. No, I don’t actually know how he knows what a man that passed away might think about decisions made after his death.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Hg-Y7MugU
If you’re unwilling to face the occasional insult you will never be able to get to the truth. I invite you all to insult me, I decline the mod’s offer of protection.
Seriously? Please consider dropping this nonsensical conversation. There’s real work to do.
Regarding that real work, what do you think I’m really not willing to try and push for, exactly?
if wishes were horses . . . there are several ‘Calculate your premium payment’ sheets out there, believe USA Today featured one this morning – and of course it wont hurt the Republican’s electoral fortunes to make sure folks know how much they are mandated to pay Big Ins
I am considered ‘working poor’ and using the USA Today calc. – I will be on the hook for an additional $327/mo – oh yeah, that’s gonna go over well
To be generous the SCOTUS simply decided to let the Obama administration’s claim that they could disappear anyone they want to not be worthy of the courts time. They probably felt they couldn’t figure out how to put this kind of decision onto paper.
Obama is doing his best imitation of George McClellan of whom Lincoln once said “..if McClellan is not going to use the Army anytime soon, I would like to borrow it.” Jane is just borrowing progressives to go on the offensive. Fine by me.
I’m on your side. Really. Not sure why you decided I’m not. Even when I disagree with Jane, I’m on her side. Can’t say it more clearly than that.
You brought facts out of nowhere and then launched into a tirade about Jane supporting a far right candidate for office when she did nothing of the kind.
All she’s ever said in regards to Republicans is that if they have a Progressive agenda she will vote for them. And now Bam, you go with the Kos idea that’s she supporting far right candidates for office.
All she’s doing is working with them where we agree.
I recently had a go-around with a small ron paul group, which ended up with me describing them as ones who wear tin hats and wooden swords and march around in circles. They ‘unfriended’ me when I wouldn’t kowtow to their clique. Funny thing, I kept saying I agreed with some of their positions, but that’s not what they wanted. As near as I can figure they wanted me to bow down to their god ron paul.
I’d support the idea of FDL establishing a Seminal type ‘tab’, a dialog space where, say, Libertarian and Progressive Left ideas could be tested out for commonalities.
How about it FDL?
Obama’s failure to push for a progressive healthcare bill is highlighted by the fact that he gave the banks and investment houses everything they could hope for, is cranking up the war machine in Afghanistan, and came up short at Copenhagen. He’s made it clear that he will bend over backward to protect the status quo and defend entrenched economic interests, but won’t lift a finger to help we the people. The 2010 mid-term elections are just 10 months away. I wonder if Obama and Emmanuel might sober up once they realize that the Democratic party is in for a severe ass-kicking?
” I recently had a go-around with a small ron paul group, which ended up with me describing them as ones who wear tin hats and wooden swords and march around in circles. They ‘unfriended’ me when I wouldn’t kowtow to their clique. Funny thing, I kept saying I agreed with some of their positions, but that’s not what they wanted. As near as I can figure they wanted me to bow down to their god ron paul. ”
That’s nice. We are all individuals. Ron Paul himself, however, had a press conference inviting McKinney, Nader, Barr and Baldwin, and went on a few national interviews with Nader. Maybe they were obnoxious, maybe you are (likely I am.) Who cares? Do you want to change the system or not?
All the same, if you go out of your way to cut down those admired by people you are working with, you are less likely to be able to work constructively. Why do we have to pick each other apart? Can’t we agree to disagree, but agree to work together on specific issues?
The libertarian argument for government financed health care is that if individual employers were absolved of the need to purchase health insurance for employees, which is expensive because the pools are generally smaller, and instead paid a 2% tax increase to finance health care for all, that would provide certainty to employers by relieving them of the need to pay higher rates for insurance while increasing labor mobility.
There is an argument in libertarian philosophy that decries the presence of middle actors who provide no value yet are retained in place due to non-economic factors such as political pressure. This, of course, clashes with the libertarian impulse to allow money to buy everything, including the outcomes of political contests irrespective of the constitutional guarantee that sovereignty is vested in the people.
That said, Greenspan was a libertarian and admits that his ideology did not mesh with the reality it created, that he was wrong. Freedom is not just a function of property and money, there are many more vectors upon which freedom expresses itself. Libertarianism fails as a generalized theory by denying this and privileging property, even though the original sin of enclosure is illegitimate, and by its own measure the current wealth is rooted in illegitimacy.
You can’t just start libertarianism from “now” and expect the theory to work.
You could call it the Molotov-Ribbentrop Corridor to Power.
Sounds good to me. Not sure how that works, but we could probably figure it out.
OT – Jane, I have a suggestion for you re the Rahm investigation.
I nearly throw up every time I open the FDL page and see his smug, smiling mug. Could you make some sort of a “thermometer” [goal of x thousand people signing the petition or something], and then as the “measure” [mercury] have an ever-increasing disappearance of his face?
I’d just find it a lot more satisfying to see a rising tide of marks elminating his mug from our world.
There is such a thing as damning with faint praise.
I in no way am regretfull of my support and vote for Obama.
Nor am I particularly surprised at how my former Senator has performed as President.
Friends convinced me to Hope(TM) for more, and as such I am dissapointed.
Bringing Rahm on as COS was an acurate predictor of all that has followed.
And This breed of Democrat responds to two stimuli, money and fear of losing power.
We don’t have enough money, so we must threaten basis of elected power.
$327 a month that is not there?
Jane is playing a critical role in this debate. She stays focused on the facts. Who is benefiting, by how much, what is in the bill for whom, what role did Rahm Emmanuel play and why? Why did congress start out with the compromise “public option” etc etc.
Senator Sherrod Brown has emphasized how critical 60% of Americans who support the public option have been. To think this legislation could have been worse according to him if we had not been pushing.
Now Harkin has said we will “revisit the public option” That re-visit needs to come immediately when they come back from their vacations.
Jane,Sherrod Brown and many others keep encouraging us to keep pushing. Keep pushing for the immediate revisit to the “public option” Keep pushing
Hmm – not unlike “Progressives”
I stand by that. I think Obama IS the most progressive person who could be elected President. That hasn’t changed.
That was (and is) a comment on our system, not a testament to Obama’s progressivism.
That’s funny. Will run it by the tech crew.
^_^
Nader pegged Obama as a corporatist from the beginning. Single payer was never on the agenda. I’m tired of the rope a dope. Obama deserves the blame for the shitty policies he is foisting on us. Katrina this is not a circus. There is no big tent.
Greenspan is a whore, IMHO. He decided he was brilliant enough to unilaterally replace the market, and was ‘betrayed’ when his own models didn’t predict reality.
One reason I say ‘i LEAN’ libertarian is that I don’t agree with some solutions proposed by some who call themselves libertarian (there is a twit calling for interventionist foreign policy pretending to be libertarian, for example.) I don’t need a label, but perhaps I should call myself a ‘Ron Paul Republican’ rather than libertarian. No one I know who considers themselves ‘libertarian’ is calling for a 2% tax as a sign of libertarianism. Regardless, I already raised health care writ pure as something we will not agree on. We can still universally oppose corporatism and sell out representatives. I was thinking of voting for Nader until I was (last minute) able to write in Ron Paul and have my vote counted. I didn’t AGREE with his philosophy, but I did believe in his honesty.
Are you aware of the “old fault lines” debate that’s been going on? We have people like Jeffrey Feldman (cited prominently by Jane in a post yesterday) talking about people “living in a state of false consciousness” versus “people with consciousness” who “are those who see the battle against ‘corporatism’ as the true political landscape.”
Translate that and so many other assertions during the debate into a course of action, and what do you get?
Because I’ve had to read the arguments as they’re being presented publicly and try to think forward into what the fuck it all means, yes, saying that it looks like Jane was going off a cliff was totally appropriate. I wrote that that’s what it appears to be and I wrote that she can feel free to correct me. She did.
My feeling about Ron Paul, exactly.
Thanks, Jane.
It’s ironic that after eight years, Katrina at The Nation has finally located Judith’s at the NYTimes’ weapons of mass destruction in the congressional conference tasked with reconciling the health care reform bills.
Ironic, but not unexpected.
Barbara Boxer’s 2010 campaign has been flogging their contribution machine for over a week, touting the historic victory of this bailout for Big Insurance & Pharma. And she, like Katrina, is supposed to be one of the smartest, most progressive & effective voices in American politics.
In the back and forth of our public policy discourse, it is painful watching our country descend into a morass of self deluded rhetoric and potemkin solutions to problems we are singularly committed to avoid, because to address them critically, leads down a difficult or costly path.
Our most recent civil war over America’s health care system is fundamentally a policy choice — who pays, who bears risks, who receives benefits, who provides services, who profits from, and who guarantees these relationships in protecting and preserving each person’s health in this nation.
So while entrenched interests distort the debate, co-opt those in power, and control the outcomes, there may come a day when people recognize and refuse to support those interests which continue to be so corrosive to the Public Good.
But if the past eleven months are prologue, Ian Welsh was right.
stick around, raise the issue over again, and perhaps the gatekeepers here will create such an informal space for a cross ideological dilog, set against a background of a two party kleptocratic system, which the Progressive Left and the Libertarians fear and abhore.
A therahmeter?
The smirk is hard to take but at least it replaced Lieberman and spouse. That was really sickening each time.
I think they want to lose in 2010. Vote in a bunch of wingnut Republicans, blame them for everything that doesnt get passed and run in 2012 on defeating those evil Republicans. They don’t want to run on their record and they just want the insurance of a boogy man.
The effective date of the statute was intentionally delayed to a date after the 2012 national election to maximize plausible denial-of-responsibility protection for Obama during his campaign for reelection. He and Rahm have calculated that memories will have faded and people will have forgotten when they vote how little this bill will protect them and how much it’s going to hurt. One thing we can be certain about is that Obama will deny responsibility for all the bad consequences as he claims credit for the good ones.
Our enemy is corporatism, its destruction of democracy, and its overwhelming power over us. It completely owns republicans, and has made inroads into the Democratic party, rahmbama, and the Democratic whores lieberman, nelson, lincoln and all. Our options are few. I continue to believe that we take the stand that our money and votes are lost to rahmbama unless they act specifically to earn them by ridding the Democratic party of corporatist overlords. If rahmbama doesn’t make progress in overcoming corporatism then their legacy is a one term presidency. Don’t have the guts for that fight? Then just keep talking.
Thanks, Jane, for keeping the spirit alive throught your actions.
“I decline the mod’s offer of protection.”
You misunderstood. The mod was not offering protection to you in particular but was protecting the useful functioning of this list. And does a very good job imo.
that’s my point hot stuff
30 – 40 million people presently not in the system will have to shell out the cash, plus co-pays, deductibles, meds, and so called’extra-policy’ shit – I keep imagining our friends and neighbors response –
this will not end well
Wonderful! And in reference to Jane Hamshser @ 93, I’ll welcome you into
the Jon Walker Pen Brigade!
His former pastor, Jeremiah Wright, pegged him as “just another politician”, or something to that effect. To me, that was much more revealing than Nader’s observation though Nader was definitely right on point.
then there is much more to build on here than with bald faced liars of either party!
Let’s petition FDL for a dedicated space wherein to test the viability of the notion of finding new and better associations.
In other words, hush Jane.
Obama said he wanted to be held accountable so hold him accountable.
I hope 2010 is the year of accountability.
The people in Iran are taking on their establishment and winning.
The elites in Iran, England, France and other countries are scared.
So, do not hush Jane.
Keep fighting until the establishment is scared in our country.
Any members of congress present? I thought not.
“We” don’t get a vote. Any calls for “our” support for this bill are a distraction. After all, if “they” want to pass this mess, they will pass it.
So what can they be afraid of? They don’t need our votes- only our acquiescence. Our clamor disturbs them, somehow.
It’s disturbed them from the very beginning. They’ve always said that the public option was a nutty thing to call for. Why should our continual insistence for it disturb them?
As soon as this bill is signed into law, there will be the call, from us, for the public option. This bill is not reform, and even if it were a path to reform, it’s not our duty to accept it. It’s our business to push harder!
R. Paine:
This is not the issue:
“I will post a response as to why I view the bill more favorable to nothing tonight…”
In your letter you said that
“Pushing for the very best bill that we can get through this congress is laudable, attacking the administration for dealing with the reality that is congress is not.”
…. thereby blaming the failings of the health care bill on Congress.
The blame lies squarely on Obama and Emanuel… going back to closed door meetings with PhRMA and insurance cos. in the spring….
That is the issue… blaming Congress, when as Feingold et al. have pointed out… Obama has gotten the bill he wanted from the beginning.
Giving him a pass and not criticizing him for his blatant sell out to the medical industrial complex would be chicken shit and criminal in my opinion.
He can not continue to get away with putting the monied class before the middle class.
He could EASILY have gone the reconciliation route to get the core componenets of health care that he campaigned on (as Bush did to get his first tax cuts for the rich)… but instead they stuck with the “60 vote” meme to sell us out.
Simple as that.
I’m having a hard time understanding the situation, but I suspect the answer lies somewhere in here, here, here, here, and here.
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We’ve all just been pushed one seat to the “left” in this grand exercise; as a result of the reform being pushed to the “right.”
I don’t know why Katrina vanden Heuvel is doing this, nor why FDL itself has found itself on the receiving end of all this righteous indignation of late, but I suspect the answers are available within this very community. I bring up these points only as an impetus to promote that collective introspection, and not as a means to impugn Jane. Her stark and vehement trend away from the path highlighted in the above quotes has been outstanding and commendable, and her pursuit of dispassionate steady course on sound argumentation in the face of all the pearl clutching has been superb.
As I understand it, corporatism doesn’t completely own Republicans. There still are many who are populists and true conservatives, and we can find many points of agreement with them as we on the outside – progressive and conservative – fight the corporatist Democratic/Republican insiders.
I’m still waiting to watch the President who ran opposing the individual mandate holding the negotiations on health care on CSPAN.
Corporatism owns the Republican Party and it owns their media mouthpieces. The rank and file are not the formal apparatus of the party.
I think this discussion of corporatisms corrosive influence on america is so important. Thank you Jane!
If he’s as close as possible to what you want, shouldn’t you be explaining why you’re trying to sandbag his term in office?
What do you get out of that and who does it help?
Care to explain the success of the Tea Partiers? Call them what you will, they’ve had more success than we have. And Fox news doesn’t much explain the Tea Partiers success in capturing the public’s notice or their success in already having impacted elections or their success in finding candidates to run in 2010.
People are naturally conservative by nature. Careful, cautious even timid (Obama), that does not make anybody a political conservative. This is the type of bullshit that conservatives pass off as truth.
But, I also think the president’s political goals are not my concern. I am not about to label him because he failed some progressive test. The worst I can say is that he is not grown into his rhetoric, if it as sincere.
I believe the battles over HCR, economic reform, immigration reform and gay rights are part of a greater struggle where one group of people(conservatives) is pitted against the improvement of humanity. People who are against this improvement are able to circumscribe their human gift of thought because of capricious notions based on sentimental wishful thinking and selfish garbage. That includes the ones who compromised on the latest HCR bill and voted yes. The ethic contained in the Golden Rule is universal to all beliefs, even non belief, yet rejected by conservatives who are bent on preserving a feudal ethos.
The HCR bill and upcoming energy, climate and immigration issues as well as civil rights for gays, assumes that a compromise is possible in this struggle. Compromise is not possible with uncompromising denial.
What progressives need to do is make this struggle clear to themselves and others, or their goals will not be clear goals. They have to move on; the struggle will attract a leader, if it deserves one.
Being aware of the repetition of history means nothing because ”I told you so” does not produce change. That is why people neglect the lessons of history.I don’t know where I stand in this argument, probably with neither Jane or Maria.
Saying that you do believe in any bill or don’t believe in it, is beside the point when these issues are part of humanity’s struggle.
If the US is about democracy coupled with a republican form of government, then these issues need to be the central focus and not a source of peripheral comment or criticism. We progressives are avoiding this specific initiative in favor of arguing about who is right or wrong an any issue. That just copies conservatives and their absurd sense of symmetry indicating a balance of ideas between left and right.
Conservatives, who signed on to The United States Constitution, have been trying to renege on that agreement ever since the founding of The United States .
Coupled with sentimental fantasies that characterize all ignorant points of view, they demand respect for this claptrap after it is patiently addressed over and over to the detriment of progress. It does not mean that willful ignorance and refusal to accept change deserves respect.
The return policy may include sympathy but… a political system that seeks compromise with these types of cynical protests is itself compromised.
The thought of aligning with teabaggers is absurd. Their concerns run only as deep as what they think is ”theirs”, and that is whatever they can get away with taking. Tax protesters, for example, who make the 2-ply toilet paper arguments about work and keeping ‘’their’’ money only show their abject stupidity both about the meaning of work and money. Put the two together and they are only good for wiping away crap.
Why even consider an alliance with them at this point?
Bingo fides2.
And btw, Jane —
Accusing you of Ralph Nadering the progressive movement is a conveniently dismissive fiction.
You’re Michael Moore’ing the neo-conservative movement that has taken over both parties.
So keep up the good work.
I’m still waiting for the President that ran on returning the rule of law to the U.S. and on stopping torture.
Both of us have a good deal more time of waiting, it appears.
Jane also correctly pointed out more than once that this discussion is long overdue, that’s it’s come up before, and that now is the right time to work through it.
Among others, Ron Paul has correclty pointed out that the election of Obama has actually created a problem for progressives.
As I’ve followed the discussion, I’m trying to figure out what course of action is being proposed. Thought I saw something of it in Cenk Uygur’s post, then got thrown off again by some things that Jane appeared to be saying.
I think he’s doing enough to sandbag himself.
Yeah…. I formed a few friendships with OFA folks as I was pushing Bingaman to STRONGLY support a PO… which of course he never did…
But those OFA folkd CAN NOT criticize Obama in the least… saying “well, we knew the fight for HCR would be messy… and we knew we couldn’t get everything we wanted…”
Well… so true if you don’t have a fucking president standing up to the MIC in order to keep the money flowing to Dems…
I’m going to do a cartoon of a Trojan horse with Obama atop it with a flag saying “Middle Class”, and with the bottom door opening up with Emanuel and corporate masters flowing out… that’s the image I keep seeing over and over in my mind.
Apart from the Grover/Jane letter, the cross ideological outreach has to all appearance pretty much been non existent.
There is no organized effort, at a grass root level, to establish a forum for a live exchange of ideas. What would the three essential points of disagreement be that would cause a meeting of minds to ultimately fail?
As long as we remain within a blog bound Kaffe-klatch mode, we are little more than a useful freak side show to the DC crowd. But, the moment we start making real overtures to the Libertarians, we will be noticed.
” I didn’t AGREE with his philosophy, but I did believe in his honesty.
My feeling about Ron Paul, exactly. ”
Precisely. And wouldn’t honest representatives be a step forward? When RP runs against Nader, we may disagree. But I saw a blog comment somewhere calling for Nader to run for Senate in 2010. Unless it were in Texas, Kentucky or Connecticut, I see no conflict with one of our Candidates. There are so few with honest records, we don’t HAVE to trip over each other. That is sort of what I had in mind.
I wouldn’t use Michael More who is a die hard Obamabot, as an example.
Trying to herd sheep.
Excellent, excellent post…
And Marcy’s neofeudalism is just a continuation of the Thatcher/Reagan neoliberalism that began in the 70s…
but I like the neofeudalism moniker better… something I think average Americans can more easily grasp.
sadly, no… perhaps Mother Jones? Haven’t read them in a while but I see online links that suggest they are still fighting the good fight…
In my opinion, the course of action is to stick to guns, stay the course…
heh.
Most normal people I know (not politically active, that is) would tend to believe two things as this plays out. One, that this is a liberal bill, and two, that they are about to be hosed again. What we need to concentrate on correcting is number one. They are right about number two.
Glad for whatever “help” I could provide.
I had to spend a lot of time with my phrasing of the request, so it didn’t sound like I was advocating violence. E.g., “wipe out,” “eliminate,” “rub out.” But you get my drift.
How does ‘the road to serfdom’ fit into that neofeudal tableau?
Preempted long ago?
Big tent = BIG VEAL PEN.
In essence, KVH argues that anyone who wants to hold the President accountable for campaign promises (public option) or accountable for a better bill should STIFFLE THEMSELVES because its not worth the risk of loss of unity. What unity?
Shouldn’t the castle (or hovel in this case) that it’s being rolled up to be labeled, “Middle Class?”
Otherwise, I dig the imagery. :-)
Ron Paul and the libertarians promote freedom and liberty. But for the reproductive rights of women, not so much. Ron Paul himself is quite irrational on the subject. I guess when you save babies for God, you are morally and intellectually superior. The health of women with respect to abortion and stem cells, is not an option to Dr. Paul.
Absolutely.
Like it or not, our playing field is the two-party system and this will never change until: the electoral is reformed/abolished, campaign finance is completely public, citizens are recognized as having inalienable rights that take precedence over corporate rights, and instant run-off voting is used.
We should work to make those things happen, but currently, with the monolithic forces aligned and invested with the staus quo, the only game is the tw-party one.
This bill is not progressive, it is regressive. It empowers insuresters and those who corrupt the legislative process far more than it makes health care more affordable or available. It is cut from the same cloth as the logic that says it’s OK to pay out hard taxpayer cash in exchange for soft, uneforceable promises to create a few jobs.
If this is the “best we can get”, we need better getters. November 2010 will shake up this Democratic leadersheep more than a stray letter between a progressive and an anti-tax extremist.
I believe that this is a RP stance, more so than a Libertarian one.
imho, the only way to effect the changes you describe is through implementing campaign finance reform.
And of course that is almost impossible to imagine.. given the current oligarchy that runs our government.
Don’t see where the tea partiers have been successful at implementing their agenda, just in stopping Obama’s. It is always easier to succeed in playing defense in politics than it is to score on offense.
I don’t see that statement as revealing what Jane, or anybody else, wanted.
Excluding Kuchinich, who never had a prayer unfortunately, Obama was the most “progressive” of all candidates, Rethug, Dem or otherwise. That’s not saying a whole lot.
So it will shake up the Democrats who are but one half, mas o menos, of the Corporate wing, – what will that gain us? – we lose either way, all ways!
Think out of the box.
The image I keep seeing is Lieberman’s face on Gollum gleefully clutching the ring of power, as they both disappear beneath the surface.
With the caption: Reunited, at last.
Well put and I agree with yours and Glenn’s analysis. For a while I was tending to think this health bill would be a reprise of the 1957 Civil Rights Act (the one no-one remembers), i.e. noble intentions progressively watered down to a lowest common denominator product acceptable to the conservative faction with their Rule XXII weapon. It (the 1957 bill) DID act as a precursor to the later two Civil Rights acts (the camel nose under the tent theory) so there is that, but I am afraid that doesn’t hold out hope that now we can hope for a similar happy outcome. At the time of the Civil Rights Acts of the Eisenhower-Kennedy-Johnson era, the federal judiciary was inclined to support the intent of the acts. The long Roosevelt-Truman era had so balanced the courts, Even Eisenhower had appointed such figures as Elbert Tuttle, etc. who later became stalwarts in the struggle to implement the Acts. This was the all-important factor in the actual enforcement and implementation of the Acts.
That’s not the case now.
The issue is twofold, cost containment, and mandated private insurance. I know spokespeople for this plan say that the former will be addressed by subsequent regulation through administrative agencies, but that simply is an ignorant hope. The current Supreme Court has shown itself incredibly capable and even desirous of overturning agency regulation when it negatively impacts the bottom line of the regulated. Even the liberals on the Court have participated in this court onslaught. I don’t see, as a long-term Court-watcher, that there really is a realistic chance to hope the agencies can bring the health insurance industry to heel with cost containment and not suffer defeat in the federal judiciary when challenged.
The mandated enrollment is a fatal infirmity so long as the industry to which we are now to be legally locked to is not effectively regulated.
Right now, the long Republican ascendency in the Executive has tipped our judiciary from the districts to the circuits to the Supremes, to one that is highly solicitous of the interests of business. I hate to say this but the current bill, if passed, will be a disaster, since for the forseeable future, the ills of the system to which it is addressed, will not and cannot be effectively regulated.
Jane is right.
IRV is no substitute for putting forth qualified candidates who are not viewed as wing nuts.
Obama put together a progressive electoral coalition that, once in office, he kicked to the curb and replaced with the same old, same old governing coalition.
Right here, the Democrats are great at failing; coming and going.
“Hurts the Progressive Agenda?” Whose agenda would that be, Rahma and Obahma’s?
Progressives don’t run personality cults; that’s the stuff of authoritarian Republicans. Democrats expect hard policies that make good choices, not giveaways to corporations wrapped in taxpayer gift paper.
My goodness, the ones who allowed gbush/cheney to get away with murder decided that plan was no longer workable. They had somehow lost their appeal.
How’s this scenario? “Let’s find a black guy.”
Meanwhile in the home of the free and brave. Over a 2 trillion goes missing at the Pentagon. Nobody cares. A black teen ager in Georgia steals a candy bar and gets 16 years in jail.
Michael Moore’s films kick the absurdity of the system in the gut. He won’t be supporting Obama’s corporatist middle way for much longer. Just wait a few months.
Not your box, thanks.
He’s quite irrational on the subject of markets and trade as well, but we have our own completely incoherent platforms, some of them even on the same issues. Firearms and abortion come to mind immediately, and economic protectionism comes in at a close second.
It’s one of the other primary reasons I think these strange-bedfellows arrangements are going to be so advantageous. It breaks down the echo chamber, and puts the screws to the platforms that don’t make any sense, requiring their reconstruction or their abandonment.
You’re going to end up a lot older and a lot fatter before that happens.
Between this and Emptywheel’s earlier post I am struck fucking dumb. (I already knew I was a dumbass, but that’s beside the point. Has anyone read Mark Rudd’s piece at Counterpunch or his newish book, “Underground”? This is the worst shit I can remember, and I’m old. As I said a coupla days ago on another topic, “Cheney must be green with envy.”
Like in South Park: Bigger Longer and Uncut, when there is operation human shield, where the black soldiers are sent forth as cannon fodder to make way for the white troops who survive?
That’s as authoritarian as anything Karl Rove put together. It just has better make-up, spelling and diction.
This is a conflict between insiders and outsiders. The haves still control Washington and the White House, if no longer the debate. The population of have nots is increasing by the day. A responsible government would channel their energies into productive uses, as well as meet their needs, not subsidize the purchase of more sonic cannons, listening machinery and more prisons with their own tax dollars.
I suspect so. I actually think you’d find a fair number of incumbent politicians, especially at the local level, who would get on board too. I know IRV in Oregon has some legs, and Sam Adams (the Mayor of Portland) has advocated for it. IRV isn’t publicly funded elections, but support for it is an indicator of discontent with the electoral process. There are a lot of politicians who dread campaigning, and moving to PFE’s takes a lot of load off.
“Democrats expect hard policies that make good choices, not giveaways to corporations wrapped in taxpayer gift paper.”
Hah! This is precisely the mind-box we need to get out of! You seem to have failed to notice who is doing the “giveaways to corporations wrapped in taxpayer gift paper”
I don’t see how you were drawing from the Feldman article into Jane going for the far right. Perhaps calling you a fool was a bit much, perhaps I should have said the argument was foolish and left it at that.
But in seriousness the only path we have left is an alliance with the right. Corporate power is far to great for one side to tackle it alone. I’d rather have far right Republicans in office who genuinely believe in what they say and who are willingly to honestly debate it than the Republicans we have now.
I wouldn’t vote for one of them, but they’re better than the corporate lackies in office now. Because then we can have an honest airing of the issues, and people can honestly choose what side they believe in.
Does that mean we campaign with them? no but where we agree we have to work together. Yes this means that they will get “victories” but so what? I’d be fine with that as long as the right thing got done. Will those victories help them get elected? Probably, but again I don’t care, honest debate is better than what we have now.
This is an evil idea, that we can’t do anything that will ever help someone on the right get elected. If he’s willing to work with his opposites on the left that should help him get elected.
u might tell us who you are, too.
affiliations?
Do you have a professional affiliation, or any other connection (including financial), that bears on the topic of your letter or that our readers should know about?
Your point would be what, exactly? A progressive staff does not make one progressive.
But their agenda hasn’t been to stop Obama, exactly. Hasn’t it been to deliver a serious punch to the Republican Party?
In that sense, I think they’ve had more success than we have in delivering any serious punches the Democratic Party.
Frankly, my problem with the Tea Partiers is that they do have a narrow view and are trying to pull the Republican Party away from society’s political center.
We, on the other hand, are trying to make the Democrats’ base see that Obama and sellout Blue Dogs and New Democrats are too right of the will of the people and are, in fact, doing things that are not in the people’s interests.
Sorry for writing in terms of Republican/Democratic, but that fault line remains regardless of a serious blurring by the fact that corporatists currently dominate both parties and regardless of efforts to argue that it doesn’t.
If I am asked, “is this bill from the Senate the bill Obama wanted all along?” My answer would be, “Yes” – because Obama actually said so – and he has said so many times. In this instance Jane is correct is attaching ownership of the bill to Rahm and Obama. But there is in fact a second question which should be asked and needs to be answered. The question is, why would Obama want such a bill? Again Obama provides the answer: he is convinced that in extending coverage to 30 million plus people, the bill significantly advances the social welfare of all Americans even if that means putting billions of dollars into the hands of the insurance companies. I believe then that we ought to take Obama at his word (1) this is the bill he wanted and (2) his belief that the bill advance the American welfare.
The third question then is this: is he right?
Jane clearly does not think so – and furthermore, even some who support Obama like Katrina, clearly does not think the bill is doing as much as it could be doing to advance the nation’s welfare. I think he’s more right than wrong – but that he made a devil’s bargain with the insurance company: in exchange for extending coverage to tens of millions more Americans, the insurance companies would be able to continue to line their pockets.
It therefore seems to me that because we know that a reconciled bill would pass within the limits that Obama has confined himself, the fight anong Progressives ought to be this: what do we do to protect the component of the bill all Progessives must support – the extension of coverage to tens of millions of Americas who do not now enjoy coverage while at the same time reduce or eliminate the element we do not like – the gift to the insurance companies?
The “kill the bill” tactic has failed. What next then for our pursuit of Progressive ideals? To invoke a Rumsfeldian I beleive we ought to adopt the position that “we go to war with the President we have.” To me that means finding a path that can allow us to exert maximum pressure on Obama and the Democratic Congress to steer towards Progressive goals while at the same time not allowing the Republicans to reclaim Congress or the Presidency.
That means that as Progessive we will perhaps sometimes leave each other bloody in trying to work out the best way forward. But we certainly must remain ever cognisant of the fact that Obama’s incrementalism, Obama’s gradualism, these are much more malleable to Progressive pressure than Dick Cheny’s Republicanism.
We need to create alliances, that much is a given. Size wise we’re puny.
It seems that all we do is fruitless dervish spinning and key board commandeering.
Can FDL create the tools to move out of this vortex?
I understand your point,SD, but you’re ignoring the fact that “most progressive person possible” is exactly the person that she was supporting and was happy to have elected.
I’m sure that she, or anyone, would prefer having a controllable clone of oneself occupying the office, but what of that?
Obama’s not much, maybe, but how does sandbagging him improve things?
“As a physician who has delivered over 4,000 babies I am very disturbed”
Typical addled md speak, thinks he has delivered babies, um no, the mothers and storks deliver them R. Paul just helps out. Wonderful how unabashedly they elevate their role. Guess they must feel those contractions.
Jane is making the “right”eous uncomfortable. That’s the only way to get people out of their comfort zone and cause them to move and take action. Being polite and talking among themselves may give folks the impression that they’re doing something, but being “in your face” is the only way to get most people to move. I learned that a long time ago from a local civil rights advocate. People called him crazy. People squirmed when he was around. But eventually people paid attention to what he was saying, and moved to action and got things done. When Jane teamed up with Norquist she got people’s attention outside of this community. When she went on Fox she got a new audience. Just preaching to the choir is easier because nobody is uncomfortable. I think she’s doing a great job and I know how uncomfortable the response can be to her, but that’s what it takes to move people.
Thank you Jane for having the strength to speak out to more than just your friends and to speaking the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it might be to some of your listeners….and they ARE listening.
Jane,
seriously, we all hate this bill, but you left Katrina’s main point completely unanswered!
I simply don’t see how killing the bill would help progressivism MOVING FORWARD.
” In response to Knoxville @ 201 (show text)
As I understand it, corporatism doesn’t completely own Republicans. There still are many who are populists and true conservatives, and we can find many points of agreement with them as we on the outside – progressive and conservative – fight the corporatist Democratic/Republican insiders.
Corporatism owns the Republican Party and it owns their media mouthpieces. The rank and file are not the formal apparatus of the party. ”
Yeah, well, we’re working on that. As you are in your party. Meanwhile if we only work there, why should they stop trying to marginalize us? It has worked so well for them in the past…..
Look, we [both fringes, if you like] hated the bailouts and actually killed the first vote in the House. That wasn’t the powers that be in either party, but see how they banded quickly together to overcome us. Why shouldn’t we maintain our own ties to counter that?
Someone mentioned the Pirate Party of Sweden: common narrow platform plank. Here it might be campign finance reform; I don’t know Clearly women are kee, though. The majority of the most powerful voices I’m hearing these days are women. Again I reference Mark Rudd at Counterpunch. It’s also at Alternet.
They are almost always different things. I can’t remember the last time they were the same. They almost always become the same agenda, however, when the Ezra Kleins, Steve Benens, and KVHs of the progressive movement demand progressives bow to the party leadership. This is a pattern of behavior in the progressive community that continues to play out issue after issue. It’s a welcome sign that some progressives are attempting to break the mold. We know where the road of embracing the Democratic leadership leads.
VandenHOOha is no Jane Hamsher and never will be. Most of us watched as she maneuvered her tortured commentary, day after day, with the pundips, to support the party line.
That is why I believe that change can not come via the Democratic party. At least no where near this generation. It is too weak and compromised. You can go into the very many Democratic operatives that have shown their hand, such as Vandenhoo, and it is a crying shame. These are the people that have negated the Democratic party. All they can do is assist in a HOAX. Many hoaxes, by the Democrats (who are really party of the ONE party, one hoax).
This is why change must come via the “free” grassroots conservative movement (NOT the one aligned with the republicans). You may laugh at this but this is more likely for several reasons…
-”free conservatives” have aa growing, solid anti-war position. Blowing up brown families and incarcerating whole generations of their young men is immoral and stupid.
-”free conservatives” are the only ones really fighting for the right to clean food, clean toys, and no forced vaccines or untested drugs to our kids and elderly.
-”free conservatives” realize that we cannot pay off the world, nor should we. Unless we stop doing this we will have NO reform in this country. That is why the Dems keep financing the world. They care not about Americans.
-free conservatives may be able to sustain reform in the financial sector. I realize that Rush and Beck support the corporate world and Wall Street, but this is the point at which the movement departs from Rush and Beck.(I wish the “free” progressives would realize this and attack on THIS point, instead of stupid, childish attacks on Sara Palin (maddow? mad cow?)
-”free conservatives” also understand that, unless we put American jobs first, and AMERICANS first, then we will never have jobs. We could invent the most fantastic “green” product, but it would soon be outsourced, offshored and done for cheap. In a heartbeat. The system is broke and the trade agreements are ANti-American.
-”free conservatives” understand that we need secure borders. Not only to keep our job market intact, but to prevent unsavories, (government and others) from trading and dealing drugs, and laundering them through our banks.
The Democratic party is too weak and way too crooked. The protesters have no power because they are propping up a body with cancer. The grassroots must unite from both sides and against corporatism. This is where any real power would be and it does scare them.
So, stop fussing about republicans and democrats. They want you to keep throwing stones at each other. But the truth is, there is ONE corporate party made up of both republicans and democrats. The party labels are just an invention.
I can and will support this platform, or any platform that comes close. The democrats are incapable of being either moral or powerful. And there is no real need to change parties. The intelligent people of this country will come to the same conclusions, eventually, no matter what the label or who they are marching with. But marching with the Democrats is a total lost cause.
It wasn’t just the Feldman article. It was the trend I saw developing from McIntyre, Kilgore, and Greenwald, to the Uygur and Feldman aricles, and into Jane’s own posts.
The whole point has become that we need to stop thinking in terms of left/right (the terms you just used in your comment @ 249) and to start thinking in terms of insiders (DC/K Street elites) vs. outsiders (progressives and libertarians/populist conservatives).
Working with libertarians/populist conservatives on issues in order to address common concerns is excellent, so long as the endgame is to our advantage.
Joining them politically in supporting candidates to oppose all DC/K Street elites would, in practice, be a disaster, the likes of which I’d rather not describe.
Time out, my grammatically cavalier friend.
Who is to whom as
they is to them: a subjective pronoun.
Thus, “they did what to them?” parallels “who did what to whom?”
IOW, who does things; things are done to whom. Try substituting “they” or “them,” to find the proper construction.
As John Hodgman would say, you’re welcome.
We now return to “reality” already in progress.
Thank you, Katrina, for coming out. Now when I see your head talking on teevee, I’ll be able to “identify” you instantly.
Remote, please.
The Republicans hate this bill no matter what and they would hate this bill even more with the public option, so, yes and no, it is about partisan politics and it is about trying to make this a better bill.
I think what we’re seeing is that members of the anti-war left who have had their agenda trashed by the Democrats are now looking at anti-war right candidates and saying “why not” — I’m not endorsing it, but rather noting that it’s already happening. The Democrats are fighting to pass the biggest rollback of women’s reproductive rights since Roe v. Wade, so many aren’t finding it such a homey place any more.
I don’t necessarily see a problem supporting an anti-war libertarian against a pro-war Republican in a GOP primary, however.
“The Nation” is a de facto organ of “Left” neoliberalism, as I’ve called it in my most recent post.
Here we agree to an extent.
I would never actively campaign for a conservative.
However we can’t be afraid of one profiting off of our goals. If a far righty works with us to say nationalize and break up the big banks…he’s going to get some political clout for that. He’s going to be more electable.
We shouldn’t not work with him because of that tho.
Giving power uncritically is not power.
Demonstrated selective willingness to bestow/withhold benefits is power.
Yep, that’s the part of it that its advocates don’t seem to grasp.
The candidates these days don’t seem to have a political standard at all – they apparently take a look at which party has the best chance to win and go with that one. Which means they believe in nothing and care about nothing.
The point of connection with the libertarians is actually about the mandate. They think it’s wrong to force people to pay almost as much to private corporations as they do in federal taxes, and progressives were willing to say “we’ll live with it as long as there is an option of paying it to the government instead” as a way of “trying to make this a better bill.”
The mandate is what the health care bill is built on. If it stays in with no alternative, there is strong agreement between libertarians and many progressives that the bill should not pass.
This seems a lot more probable to me than just blaming Obama.
That’s a very good piece. You should xpost on the Seminal.
Bully!
As long as we keep up this internecine meanness those who want to see the left fragmented are certainly getting their way.
That was what the whole letter was about. I’d like to hear the argument about why it is good policy to force 30 million people to buy insurance from private insurers who rip us off and the ceo’s pay themselves millions of dollars to enrich themselves.
Please don’t assume. I am a registered Green in California, under no illusions about the Democrabs.
There is much more that unites us than divides us, the corporatists know this, and that is why we’re seeing media designed to further that division: I’ll see your BillO and raise you a MaddoW, you got a Beck? Well, I’ll raise you an Olbermann then.
We’ve got to cobble together coalitions where we can, which is difficult under corporate dominance, and that means sometimes going outside your comfort zone but uniting where our principles and values coincide, not pulling a Clinton or Obama and abandoning our values to score a point.
At this point, progressives and liberals are not fringers, the polling indicates that after 30 years of fake libertarianism, folks want government standing for us against corporate rape of our democracy.
Quoting myself from my comment @ 263 in response to yours @ 249
I need to be clear, when I wrote that the point has become that we need to stop thinking in terms of left/right fault lines, I was describing the line of argumentation from people like Greenwald, to people like Uygur, to what I was seeing in Jane’s posts.
I wasn’t saying that I agree with the need to step outside the left/right box. We can step outside of it to work with them on important issues, but that’s it.
What you are suggesting in your comment @ 249, campaigning with them, allowing them to get “victories,” indeed helping some on the right get elected, is a very bad idea.
We’re talking politics, where things are good or bad, not good or “evil” (as you called any idea that we can’t ever help someone on the right get elected). Doing what you’re suggesting is a bad idea.
You’re thinking the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
They’re thinking my weaker enemy is also the enemy of my stronger enemy, and, though still my enemy, I can use this weaker enemy to help me defeat my stronger enemy, just before I turn on my weaker enemy and destroy him too.
If I thought Jane would listen to me, I’d even play out some more of what would happen a little. As it is, it seems based on her earlier comment in this thread like Jane’s not going there anyway.
Everyone in DC claiming to represent “progressives” is in the Veal Pen, and the rest of them don’t appear to be bright enough to read “desperation” into Jane’s temporary alliance with Grover Norquist. Who, perchance, is going to build your Hell?
Size wise, we’re a majority. Organizational-wise, nobody’s got our backs.
So long as we don’t pull a Clinton and throw our values out the window just to be invited to eat at their table.
Except that presidential bully pulpit is always available but never used.
Add Josh Marshall to the list (KVH, J Walsh,…) of those who are too quick to throw the term Naderite around. He answered an email in which I spoke about a 2012 primary challenge to Obama by dismissing me as Naderite. (Even though I was NOT advocating 3rd party.)
I suggest that anyone who so easily uses the name of that great man as a term of derision has lost their bearings. There was a time when being a progressive (or even a Democrat) meant rejecting the received wisdom that social justice is a goal pursued only by the naive–that the “art of the possible” always means accepting whatever the power structure is willing to give.
My reason for hoping for a progressive victory over the corporate Dem structure is that I think the Republican grip on poor southern and rural voters is weaker than it has been for the last 30 years; thus I applaud Jane’s reaching out to the right. The current HCR bill will hurt, not help the chances of progressives (although it may still help some corporate Dems) in the next two elections.
Not sure what the quote re the “road to serfdom” is in reference to?
But, yes, I realized years ago that we were the serfs in the feudal system… and it is being codified more and more every day… by someone who proclaimed repeatedly that he would fight for the middle class if elected.
I actually think my dismay/depression re Obama’s bait and switch is more severe than that under the Bush admin … well maybe not yet, but we’ve got 3 more years, if not 7 more years for that to happen…
And that we who are pointing out Obama’s complete sell-out of the middle class to corporatism are being attacked from “Progressives” only makes it worse.
The Naderites were correct in 2000, that there was one side of a cocktail napkins worth of difference between Bush II and Gore. The permanent government would have made them take whatever petroleum from wherever it was to keep the machine humming. Iraq would have happened anyway.
And the Democrat hack parade was wrong in framing the Greens for spoiling Gore because they did all but destroy a potential progressive instrument which could be used to keep the Democrats on the track they ran on.
And I will be with you on this so long as you don’t forget the Democratic primaries, where we should push far harder to toss out pro-war, anti-choice, corporatist sellout, neoliberal, assholish Blue Dogs and New Dems.
Those on the right are fighting for the Republican Party as much as anything else.
We should be focus more on fighting for the Democratic Party.
Their job is easier, because they’re out of power.
What Katrina and others are showing us is that far too many in the base of the Democratic Party are more interested in the Democratic Party holding on to power than in doing what’s right.
It’s a huge challenge for us.
It’s up there.
I agree, but part of the point has been that there are commonalities on certain principles. The extent to which those commonalities can be exploited in practice is a different matter.
Well, lemme see. I can sit back and just watch the WH and Congress take us further down the neoliberal path or I can raise hell about it. If “sandbagging” Obama is part of that so be it. I have no intention of standing by while the neoliberals fulfill the plan set forth by the neocons at PNAC in Rebuilding America’s Defenses, which is exactly what is happening.
sickening and funny at the same time… is there a word for that?
We are in uncharted waters because we’ve been so polarized by the left/right dichotomy that it has blinded us to other possibilities.
Having lived in Texas for too long, I know it is possible to make connections with conservatives and speak with them as human beings to find some common ground. The first step is for our side to stand down on this choreographed “right wingers are just stupid” schtick, and begin to debate on the issues rather than ad hominem at a whole segment of society.
I was trying to allert you to the fact that an antithetical position to yours has been coopted and the title of that famous oevre is:
The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich von Hayek
“For Hayek “the road to serfdom” inadvertently set upon by central planning, with its dismantling of the free market system, ends in the destruction of all individual economic and personal freedom. Hayek’s central thesis is that all forms of collectivism tend towards tyranny, and he used the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany as examples of countries which had gone down “the road to serfdom” and reached tyranny. Hayek first argued that democratic legislatures move too slowly to manage a modern industrial economy.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom
Here’s yer road to serfdom explained by clear eyed economist Michael Hudson, quite different from the road outlined in fuckno#294:
http://www.insurgentamerican.net/download/MichaelHudson/Hudson_RoadToSerfdom.pdf
From Harpers’ Magazine in 2006.
I think you’re misunderstanding me.
I don’t mean we should campaign with them. But say right now we started a “Nationalize and break up the banks” petition. And like Lindsay Graham thought it was a great idea and wanted to join in it with us. (Just a name, I know he wouldn’t). He posts here saying “despite disagreeing on a lot I feel we can work together on this one issue”
Well, I would welcome that support and I would use it as a weapon.
Now because of that, if it worked, if we got what we wanted Graham would get a bump, because he worked in a bipartisan way to get this popular thing done.
We can’t be afraid of that. I’m not going to go and help Lindsay Graham campaign after it’s done, but he’ll be able to take that “victory” and use it in his campaigning.
So be it.
“The issue is twofold, cost containment, and mandated private insurance. ”
I would say the issue is four-fold… we need stronger employer mandates as the House bill has and most important of all:
We need a strong regulatory framework as part of this bill to hold the insurance companies accountable.
As Lawrence O’Donnell and Wendell Potter pointed out last week, there is no way to hold them accountable in the Senate version (or the house version I believe).
So, they may SAY there will be no pre-existing illness exclusions (after 2014 of course)… but in fact there is wording in place to say that they can exclude on the bases of “fraud”… right now, they allege fraud at every turn, and deny coverage on that basis.
Do you think that behavior will magically stop? Apparently Obama and Emanuel do.
So some sort of regulatory oversight is crucial to holding these murderers-by-spreadsheet accountable.
‘Stop mocking faux progressive aparatniks, you people! Not nice!’ -Shorter VandenHeuvel
Knoxville, the American system has the ability to empower “third parties” in times of severe crisis, such as (for instance) in 1860, when the Republican Party stopped being a “third party” and started being a “second party.”
We’re probably headed for another one of those times. The Republicans have become a cult of true believers, and the Democrats look more like the Whig Party every year.
Theirs is not the only Full Court Press in town, by the way. I’ve proposed another:
http://www.antemedius.com/content/full-court-press-435-democratic-congressional-primaries
Yes, it takes a shot at you in the intro. Since that time, you have come through for us, and all I can say is thank you.
Obviously, your going after Rahm and the fight over the healthcare bloody stump are parts of the same fight. I try to do some work with that here:
http://www.docudharma.com/diary/18216/the-jane-hamsher-front-strike-the-empire-back
Let’s not stop with Emanuel. The whole team needs some excoriation.
Bernanke, Summers and Geithner all have to have dirt on them. I believe that supporting you in this fight is to take it to them, not just defend.
Nathan: Thanks for pointing out that, far from being the wild-eyed “so far left she’s right” straw woman of apologist caricature, Jane was actually in the middle ground on HCR due to her backing of the public option.
thank you for the list of failed promises, here’s one you left out….
“the special interests and corporate lobbyists will not have a front row seat in my administration…blah…blah…blah…”
Apparently, to some, self respect is a fault.
Still waiting health reform negotiations on CSPAN?
From the NYT article:
That tells me a couple of things: First, Rahmbobama is an idiot for thinking that anyone could ever romance Collins or any other Rethug into a bipartisan affair– a huge waste of time. Secondly, that Emanuel is in a reactive and not proactive mode, which accounts for the scatterbrained results we’ve seen thus far.
The important thing post-bill is to scrub DC clean of the people who made this bill what it is. Start with Lieberman, Nelson, Lincoln, and so on.
Indeed. I don’t really know what changed in the interim, as that was only a month ago, but Jane’s tact and tenor has shifted markedly, and it’s very much appreciated. What I find so ironic about it is that as Jane’s position has become more sound and solid, the attacks on her sanity and civility have escalated.
Honestly, I think we’re much more on the same page than not. As for campaigns and elections, I think I finally see a little of where Jane’s going for 2010 and can most certainly be on board for it, so long as we remember our goal along the way.
I didn’t say it was a good vehicle, just the best available. You’re much less likely to pass progressive legislation through the Republican party, because they have the capacity but not the inclination, or through a third party, who has the inclination but not the capacity.
But like I said, that doesn’t mean we have to accept it like it is.
” Please don’t assume. I am a registered Green in California, under no illusions about the Democrabs.
There is much more that unites us than divides us, the corporatists know this, and that is why we’re seeing media designed to further that division: I’ll see your BillO and raise you a MaddoW, you got a Beck? Well, I’ll raise you an Olbermann then.
We’ve got to cobble together coalitions where we can, which is difficult under corporate dominance, and that means sometimes going outside your comfort zone but uniting where our principles and values coincide, not pulling a Clinton or Obama and abandoning our values to score a point. ”
I’ll apologize for calling you a Dem if you will apologize for suggesting I follow Beck or O’Reilly….. (Beck says some good things now, but if we are going on RECORDS, look at him in the 2008 primaries… and the O’Reilly comment simply baffles me. Maddow I watch from time to time, Olberman, too, although to be honest I think he is too knee jerk. Maddow I think is intellectually honest; I just disagree with her sometimes. Well, often. But it is the typical progressive/libertarian divide.)
I agree. We should unite where we can be honest about it. We are universally taken for granted by those who think we have nowhere else to go. Which is only so because we let it be so.
I apologize for calling you fringe, as well. I say it tongue in cheek, for what it is worth.
The thought that Grover Norquist is a “teabagger” is absurd too.
better late to the party than never.
It is really past time for us to do those things which the current government won’t.
Haven’t seen Rudd’s piece at Counterpunch but will go looking for it… thanks. Given that “we” are now being attacked by “Progressives” I want to read as much as I can from people who are exposing the lies and deceit.
Yeah, color Cheney green… who could have imagined (to paraphrase Condy) this continuing nightmare from the “good guy”?
(Well, I know some folks were more prescient than I… so that is rhetorical I guess… but he sure pulled the wool over my eyes with his fiery rhetoric at a campaign stop in northern NM. I was not a supporter until I heard that speech… and the people were going absolutely crazy in response to his take down of the Wall Streeters and corporatists.)
Jane,
Have you ever thought of publishing a print journal? Say, once per month on the newsstands?
I’ll raise it again, if I need to. It is raised often on libertarian forums, by the way, at least the Ron Paul ones.
I was talking in poker talk, when I said I’ll raise you, I meant the generic poker you, not you.
I see BillO and Maddow as more or less equal and opposites.
I see Beck and Olberman as more ad hominem the kind who like to joust at absurd caricatures of The Other.
Beck’s “Tree of Revolution,” though is just too much. Has he ever worked with SEIU? Doesn’t he know that they’ll fold like a chair the minute they get 10% of their ask and then fuck over their former allies? I’ve worked with Van Jones on police reform issues, the guy is a really smart advocate for folks who the people who pay Glen Beck’s salary fuck over. They should be scared of him. But he’s squarely within the American progressive consensus.
Conservative ideas have been exhausted. There is not political support for letting everything go bankrupt. Montery policy is kaput as well. So that leaves us with debt financed Keynsianism. If you’ve got other ideas from the right, I’d like to hear them but until there’s something that is politically viable, appeal to economic sharia is not going to be successful.
At this point, it is considered radical to demand the promises about how government should run that were made to us in civics class. That’s how bad it is. There is some supermajority of Americans who would support cutting business and organized labor both out of the democratic process by only allowing flesh and blood human beings to contribute to election campaigns, kicking the moneychangers out of our temple of democracy, leaving it the sole province of the sovereigns.
” Obama like Bush is just a front-end marionette.
This seems a lot more probable to me than just blaming Obama.”
What do you mean “just blaming”? Whatever you feel or think Obama’s intentioins are, so many of the issues are life altering, planet altering. Every drunk driver who kills someone else most likely does not intend to do so. We, as a society, have set standards that we hold responsible the drunk beyond his or her intentions. Obama’s campaign push the “intelligence” attribute in stride with “change”. The sycophants and the administration are now pushing a helpless meme. “Congress has the power.” “Obama did EVERYTHING he could…” Bullshit. Their behavior has done more to ruin the reputation of intelligence than Fox News. Is he smart and powerful with bad intentions or helpless and dumb with good intentions?
Well, I know he is smart. He has demonstrated a calculating spirit. So, my simplistic approach has him with bad intentions. The war in the middle east will expand(they need a new crisis)because The Nobel Peace Prize is a farce. Everything about Obama is becoming a farce. This country is becoming a parody of a parody of the old Soviet system.
campaign finance reform? Maybe. Not sure. What if we just got rid of corporate personhood?
I do not associate true leftists with the Democratic Party at all. Despite popular belief, the Democratic Party is not part of the “left,” nor is it liberal or progressive….How this characterization keeps being said over and over again in refrain, is beyond me. I chuckle every time a reporter or talking head makes this bogus claim. I do not view true leftists and progressives/liberals in the same category. Too often, liberals/progressives line up right behind the Democratic Party.
Now, the media may say “far left” this and “far left” that, but they never define in precise or spefific terms who those “lefties are. It would be nice if the media actually put on some leftists from the African-American community like Kevin Alexander Gray or Bruce Dixon to talk about Obama rather than their very superficial analysis. Paul Street is another activist right out of Obama’s backyard in Chicago and he thinks nothing good will ever come out of Obama. Same holds true for Gray and Dixon—both activists as well. The media is very confused in how best deal with Obama…..for many reasons as Black Agenda Report’s Glen Ford says over and over again.
Black Agenda Report @:
http://www.blackagendareport.com
True Leftists, not Democratic Party mainstream liberals, are the ones who usually vote for people like Ralph Nader or many of them would not vote at all. The notion that Naderites would vote for the Democratic Party in lesser evilism is not necessarily the case. I know the liberals and pro-Democratic forces who want to blame Nader for Al Gore’s poor presidential campaign (I suggest you all go back and listen/read the Bush-Gore denates) and his inability to draw very sharp distinctions from Bush’s positions and of course the lovefest between Lieberman and Cheney agreeing on a lot in 2000. It is very presumptuous to think that Naderites see the Democrats as the default party aside from dupes like Michael Moore and other Nader defectors.
The Democratic Party sold out its left base and all its associated groups with the formation of the Democratic Leadership Council with Clinton and Gore and the Washington mantra of bipartisanship. Tom Daschle and Bob Dole have a professsional relationship now in the group they formed. Other former politicians have joined together in forming professional partnerships to lobby their pals as well.
Katrina is enjoying her insider status as she goes on all the talk shows from ABC to MSNBC to CNN. So, Katrina has bought into that [pst-racial, post-partisan nonsense, hook, line, and sinker which is pushed by the Washington, D.C. elites.
Perhaps Katrina is reading too much David Broder and not enough of Paul Street, Naomi Klein, Sherry Wolf, or Bruce Dixon. I still value some of the writers at the Nation, so I am not going to cancel my subscription. I still also like Katrina vanden Heuvel as well. It takes some longer than others to see the light.
Because it takes some longer than others to get it, I say we need to be patient and kind as they come closer to the truth.
Peace….
Obama has as much spine standing up to entrenched interests as Gumby. When Rahm wants him to show spine against the people and the “left” Rahm shoves a 2×4 up his……
KVH’s response. One word. Jealousy!
I don’t know anything about Beck’s Tree of Revolution so I can’t speak to that. As to your thinking conservative thought is exhausted, I think we are straying into where we can’t agree. Keynesianism IS THEFT however. Even Keynes wrote that, (different words) his only come back was that it would ‘take a long time’ to steal a whole lot of value. Guess what? It has BEEN a long time….the dollar is worth 4 cents next to the dollar the federal reserve took over in 1913.
Regardless, that is where we don’t agree. My hope is that focusing on where we DO agree will get us a lot further than you seem to pessimistically think it will. You say most don’t care about civic class’s promises, for example. I call bullshit on that (in the poker sense, not against ‘you’ you, of course). Most were fat and happy and now aren’t and are looking at how the promises fell apart. Rahm isn’t the only one who can use a crises, if that is what it took to wake people up.
The difference is, we’d be honest about it.
If the Senate bill really is what Obama wanted all along, I now know for a fact I backed the wrong candidate in the primaries. Dammit.
if barry is getting 95% of what he wants doesn’t that explain ….
Bravo, well said
so the other 5% is public option / medicare buy-in / no mandate / …..
………. hmmmmm …
maybe the truest thing barry has said ” got my 95% ” i’ll believe
that ….
This HCR Bill was COOKED by Mid-March, 2009….
The House and Senate “Debates” are all show and theatre….Members of Congtess knew the outcome before they even went to “debate” this thing….The so-called “debate” has been about stringing everyone along, and little by little releasing details of what isn’t in the bill and what is in it, thereby, conditioning the masses for what will be in the final legislation.
From the very start these members of Congress knew there would be no public option or single payer and the continued gutting of Medicare….The next item these people will go after is ending Social Security…..they have already started that conditioning process too….
If the Democratic leadership thinks that discrediting and silencing the messenger is the way to secure the Part’s future, they have clearly got the wrong idea about who the message is for. They obviously think that Mme. Hamsher is trying to convince us, the core Democratic voters, that the Party leadership is wrong. But we need no convincing. Mme. Hamsher’s message is FROM us To the leadership.
If the leadership has so convincingly spun the Virginia election results and the opinion polls that it has convinced itself that there is no proverbial writing on the wall, then 2010 is going to be a shock. I, for one, will not be voting for a single Democratic incumbent this year for Federal or state office. The neoliberal, Rahm/Obama/Clinton Democrats have finally gone far enough into the corporate trough that I can’t really see a down side, practically speaking: rhetoric aside, a Republican victory would make no obvious difference.
Nathan… I too have reflected on the tone of comments that night several weeks ago and don’t know how/why things improved… but am very glad they did.
That would be a good start… Stotomayor had some brief encouraging words in that regard, but I think it’s a long shot that the current SC would overturn that decision.
As to why KvH would do this, when the Nation’s readership has been vocally expressing positions closer to FDL’s than to that of KvH’s letter — well, that’s something for her to explain.
Veal Pen
Now and always remember that The Nation lauded Obama’s Oslo speach in which “War is peace” and “we have always stood to protect and promote democracies” quotes paraphrased, but you get the gist…
It seems to me that those who might view ideological purity in a very bad light, should also view partisan purity in the same way–but apparently they don’t. purity is evil, we’re told, unless it has to do with sticking with the party/administration, no matter what.
Let’s be consistent now. either you are pro-purity, or you ain’t.
Can you say “In the tank” I knew that you could
I agree with your sentiment, but going after everyone simultaneously only gives the appearance of a drunk flailing his arms in a street fight. (of course you might say, with some legitimacy, “fuck appearances”) Rahm Emanuel is a central figure in this battle against corporatist control over Obama’s presidency, symbolically and substantively. Get him out of the picture and you send a powerful message. But I agree, don’t stop with Rahm.
Ever since I saw the self-congratulatory faces of Reid, Nelson (was a crook in Nebraska as Governor, and is still a crook, IMO as a former resident during his reign), et al. at the C-Span podium last week, I’ve had a thought I’ve been unable to shake. It remains to this day, and I hope the blogosphere picks up on the parallels.
I like history as a subject. I do not like history to necessarily repeat itself for the sake of learning lessons. However, I think we are there with this abomination that came out of the Senate. I get a sense of looking through a time machine glass at a group of Colonials who are being forced to pay excesses, among other things, to support an elite class of people including a monarchy. What is this “reform” except another tax, with breaks and benefits to elitist politicians in order to buy their cooperation? It’s obscene and it’s killing the people who are barely scraping by.
The average income in the entire region I live in (SW Colorado) is $30,000 a year. They are small businesses, Wal-Mart employees and other services industries at wages between $9 and $11 an hour – if you are lucky enough to be full-time. There are almost zero stay-at-home parents because both must work just to feed themselves, pay their rent and utilities, and pay for child care – if they have one or more. The state has cut school lunch programs so parents must pay that cost, along with any other needed school expenses. Paying an insurance premium, ANY insurance premium be it through their employer or to the feds as mandated under this version from the Senate, amounts to a tax. It’s a tax they never had a say in and a tax that carries penalties. What happened to Constitutional due process?
War is coming in the form of a second revolution. Revolution is just a making of the same circle once again. The scenario is the same as it was in 1771. We have an actual document (the Declaration of Independence) that grants a permissive right to revolution. We have an affront to our civil liberties. And we have stores that can’t keep live ammunition in stock. Once upon a time I believed that we would see some change, if only we had a leader that would lead . We have a king instead, and like all good ministers and minions, Congress has thrown themselves in front of his train to deflect from the source of his irresponsibility and apparent deceit.
I’m not a member of any “party”. I can’t believe in an organization that lives and breathes money from sources, all expecting big favors. This President, I’m very sorry to say, brought organized crime and monarchist philosophies and practices together, rather than bringing together We, The People. And so history will have to repeat itself and we will have to take back our country. If we do not, then the debtors prison that is specifically banned by the Constitution (but known as federal prison for tax evasion) will become overwhelmed with the numbers of Americans who have no way to pay for their “medical care for everyone” fines.
Maybe the most galling thing about this latest vote auction is that they really do expect us to accept the bribes as “normal”. Bribery, thuggery, unconstitutional mandates and preemption clauses are not normal for Americans. The “sheep” in this country helped get these crooks elected, including this President. It’s up to the sheep to show their wolf side and rectify this situation one way or another.
You know, we’ve impeached for lesser offenses. I think the whole blogosphere should be outraged at our power being used against us. Who cares what we’re called: Naderists, socialists, rabble, colonialists, etc!? It’s sticks and stones. We still have the power and the numbers to stop this whirlwind and take back the republic (not “Republican” for those who can’t read past a Party name) without firing a shot. There simply cannot be any reform of anything until you break it down to its foundations and engage in changes that are backed by common sense rather than dollars and cents.
peterboy, I’ve been on this site since it began, not too many people would chllenge my integrity here.
to answer your question, I have no affiliation with any health care firm, I do like to hear reasoned opinions from all sides of every argument
you?
Sorry Soul, Obama has his corporate schwerve on, and we are going to see a lot of it until the “real” corporatists overthrow him.
Still all talk. rahmbama, you’ve lost my money and my vote. If you think you can get another term without it, do so. If not, then you had better do something to get my money and my vote back. It is really a choice. If the corporatists think you won’t be able to win another term (a pretty good bet without us), they’ll abandon you quickly. If you work with us you’ll be able to rely on us, along with the millions of voters you’ll gain by including a strong PO in the health care bill. Right now you’re making the wrong choices.
I’ve yet to understand how we managed to get money equated to 1st Amendment speech without running smack into an issue of “equal protection” (14th Amendment).
My assumption thus far has been poor lawyering.
FWIW, I supported Chris Dodd during the campaign before he dropped out. I still think he would’ve been a much more forceful advocate for real HCR than Obama.
Hi Booyah,
I tend to look at legislation (impending or otherwise) from the viewpoint of ultimate implementation. What the record shows over a long, long time, is that reformist legislation (think Wagner, Glass-Steagal, Norris-LaGuardia, etc.etc.)ultimately founder on one of two rocks: death by subsequent amendments snuck into all kinds of non-germane legislation or outright repeals, or court challenges launched at the district level that invalidate parts of the legislation.
What the current health legislation fails that it is not only internally faulty, lacking any kind of regulation of what amounts to a sector hyper-inflation in the health industry that shows no sign of slowing, much less stopping, but that its backers seem to think that they can amend it later to make it stronger, or failing that, rely on agency regulation (think of the EPA) to give it teeth to defend itself in the jungle it will be thrown into. There is no historical precedent to suggest they are realistic here; more likely they are being disingenuous.
If the health industry can be likened to a jet passenger liner that has shown a dismaying record of crashing on takeoff, the current bill would mandate we all board the plane, leaving our doubts at the boarding gate. Much better would have been some kind of bill to mandate repair of the airplane to where it is safe to bear passengers.
Even better, would have been to scrap the model, and simply go Medicare for everyone.
I argue that the healthcare reform could have gone three ways: Medicare for everyone-i.e. the single payer option; regulation of the existing private health industry to cap or roll-back costs; or small adjustments of the the existing system.
What happened was that we got the third and weakest solution, with the horrible addition of mandatory enrollment.
I agree with you, lacking a strong regulatory framework, it would be better to let this bill die.
In any case I don’t think it is wise for our government to go further down this path of forcing private citizens into contractual relations with business entities. Especially when the latter are essentially unregulated.
I wasn’t going after “everyone,” I was suggesting going after Obama’s Wall Street economic team and naming what I consider the key 3. I consider that tactically feasible.
“Demands” work on two levels. One is the impact they have if they can actually be accomplished. The other is propagandistic. So I would not adopt an approach that is predicated on actually taking out Rahm. If that happens, great. But even if not, Jane’s targeting him was a terrific move.
You don’t know me, of course, but I am someone who is fighting night and day (being unemployed, that’s not as dramatic as it sounds) against the drunken flailing of “let’s stay home,” “destroy the Democratic Party,” “smash the system,” etc., with no tactical specificity as to how to do anything about it. I consider myself pretty radical, but my radicalism lies in the development of specific tactics. Did you check the links on my post? They’ll give you a better idea of what I’m about.
And thank you for your response.
Property is theft, and even libertarianism agrees that it cannot start from a position of inequality, must start with legitimate distribution of wealth, which we don’t have.
Keynsianism is temporary theft to invest in making sure that there will be an economy in the future. When it works, most who were taxed get it back in the end, more or less.
Again, unless you all have any better ideas, Keynsianism it is.
Behold! Glen Beck’s Tree of Revolution.
There ain’t no equal and opposite of this crack induced analysis.
And thank you for your response. Everything you said sounds reasonable.
Thanks for the term free conservatives. The Democrats should meditate on the strong possibility that we independant thinking voters did not hire the democrats, we fired the republicans.
If You See Kay: ask her to focus on two words CONSENSUS and REDEMPTION.
Real Healthcare reform is the traveling free clinic.
If the immoral senate HRB gets signed we will fire as many democrats as possible, and 2010 election day cannot come fast enough, all any one would have to do would be to stand to repeal the rip-off mandate section.
Please let us never have a defeatest attitude about an Independant Party, lest we dishonor our Framers whom faced impossibe odds, we GOT enough PEOPLE, who is going to stand up and run.
Jane Hamshire and FDL give the U.S. Political Process credibility and breathes live into intelligent discourse not just the far left.
Something seemed amiss when Katrina V. dissmissed many of us as “stale, male and pale”, now it seems She has sold Her soul to be a spokes woman for the emperior has wonderfull clothes society. Pray for the weak in spirit.
Too many caps, too much SHOUTING. Your message reads like it was written by Pammy Geller of ATLAS POUTS.
and here I thought I was the only one who saw this entire sham nothing more than theatrics, the gang of six, then the gang of 10(12,14..whatever),
Lieberman, Stupak, Nelson all playing their Oscar-performing dutiful roles of the villians so Reid can look like Mighty-Mouse coming to save the day.
I read somewhere(can’t remember where)that Rahm and Obama had already made deals with Pharma and the Insurance Industry before he was even sworn into office.
He’s not spineless for what he wants. he’s just a Corporatist who ran using Progressive framing as his message. Hidden within the message like the fine print on those variable rate mortgages the banks foisted off on millions a few yrs. ago was what he really was. Today all of us are essentially reading the disclaimer and were not liking it much. Your right about this awful fascistic bill the Dinocrats are cooking up for the rest of us. Its going to be political poison for the Dems. as people become aware of its true costs and provisions. Its like all of Obama’s so called reforms so far Progressive in their framing and wording but Orwellian in nature. The Dems. sure learned well from Rove these last 8 yrs. didn’t they.
You’re right about not voting Democratic. I voted for Jesse Jackson in the 84 primary and for Gus Hall/Angela Davis in the general election. In 1988 I voted for Jackson again in the primary and then voted for Lenora Fulani/Joyce Dattner in the general election.
I refuse to vote for a Democrat or a Republican. Living in New York that probably means my vote doesn’t count but I’d rather increase the vote count of an opposition candidate than contribute to a mandate for change that isn’t. In the 2008 election, I voted for Cynthia McKinney.
agree with you… but something just hit me blindingly… and am stupid for it not occurring to me earlier.
The reason they didn’t go “Medicare for All” AND forced the death of the expand Medicare to 55-64 year olds is because…
They are going to dismantle or seriously cripple Medicare!
Obama has said as much, McCaskill has indicated entitlements are next on the table, etc.
So of course they could not craft “reform” around a program they are about to gut….
Jeeesuz… it just gets worse and worse.
fine print… like that analogy. I just wish they would have handed out the fine print in writing to the people at his rallies where he was on fire spewing the populist rhetoric.
Not fair that the fine print was scattered in a few poorly-publicized corporate speeches that no one saw.
Perhaps we can pass a political fine print law whereby campaigning politicians are required to publish their true beliefs! Yeah, right after we enact campaign finance reform.
Like Israelis working with Evangelical Christians? Unfortunately, if all goes according to the Evangelical’s plan, those newfound friends, the Israelis, won’t live to join the Evangelical’s celebrations.
Why do most posters here enjoy playing victim. They want to make it seem as they are being silenced or trivialized. They say they are being accused of being kooks. They say that they speak for the majority of “we the people”. Why then have you majority progressives never elected a President of your own (you are the majority aren’t you?) Or maybe a TRUE Progressive majority congress? Why? Aren’t you guys the majority. Or silent majority. Haven’t been able to organize? Corporations working against you? Corporate democrats betraying you? Most Americans just not smart enough? Smart like you that is. Is everybody gunning for you because you speak the “truth”? What makes you morally superior to those that disagree with you? Your populist rhetoric? Like single payer health care? Personally, I’d like single payer. I believe it is the best form of healthcare. Corporations should not profit on anyone’s bad health, or good health for that matter. But the reason it was never on the table because there was no way to pass the legislation. That sucks, I want single payer. But I would have to convince the minority of “we the people” that it would be good for them. The so called Progressive majority has failed to do so. But they blame the president for never being on board. Since the majority progressives have all of middle America backing them they were amazed that Obama did not call for single payer. Funny how all you saw on TV was Teabaggers (FDL’s new allies) calling the weak crap in the bills a takeover of healthcare by a bunch of commies. I thought you progressives were the majority? What happened. Obama didn’t even get behind the PO. Where are your progressive majorities pushing through the PO. Why weren’t the demonstrations on TV all about progressives hitting the town halls pushing Single payer or the PO?
Play victim all you want, You speak of activism but practice it poorly. getting arrested at an anti war rally may give you cred amongst your peers. But it does nothing when the right wing dominates the narrative, media and the political will in our government. There is no way any Democrat could under our current political environment pass any progressive legislation. Why because unlike your perceived majority, the real majority see your agenda as wrong for the country. I disagree with them, so should you. My job is to show them they may be wrong. normally with help from you guys but your too busy attacking the administration. instead of attacking the real problem. the left has lost the PR war and is still losing it.
Call me an Obama bot or whatever you like. it is you who are blindly following anger mongers who attempt to make us Democrats or left thinking people take sides amongst each other. Why? What is your hidden agenda? You accuse everyone else of having one. Or are you so pure that you have none. We are all being taken for suckers by the true enemy, yes enemy. the right wing. They were in disarray and still are. Yet they somehow managed to divide us. I know the Obama admin is far from perfect, but you are all going to wish he were still POTUS after you have a taste of POTUS Palin or some other similar right winger. But you deserve everything you get. Sadly you and you new teabagger pals are gonna take the rest of us down with you. Call me and those who think like me whatever you like, the truth still hurts. And IMHO it is not on your side this time. Also the Corporate tool meme is boring and crappy already. Find some new material. I agree that corporations are pulling plenty of strings, but you use that term whenever you come across an opinion you disagree with and its getting rather stale. Unless the entire population are corporate tools and only Fdl’ers are the non corporate tools. Get real. I am really scared for this country, people who think that only the can solve every problem on purely ideological stances are dangerous. Regardless of being from the right or left. Be careful you may just be the problem, not the answer. I don’t know, do you?
Continuing my thought, our conservative friends who posit for eliminating corporatism, here’s their chance. By following my suggestion to unite against the administration unless changes are made, they can join in. They can never expect restriction of corporate influence from republicans, and so would vote for Obama if change occured.
But somehow I don’t expect Libertarians to be anybody but the same crowd that helped enable bush, by never raising their voices to push back against erosion of personal liberties, constant illegal war, and so many other atrocites. And of course, an abstract idea of reining in corporatism will never survive paul’s dedication to eliminating abortion.
We need to rely on ourselves.
Re: #353
And I often wondered why the ruling elites have such low regard for the masses. They seem to always be one step ahead . . .
Yet, once you get hip to the game they try to marginalize in any number of ways.
Wow, you’ve backed some slimy bastards.
Isn’t soft around the edges one of the marks of an American progressive? Jane’s going to have to call herself something else because the term has been coopted by those who just want to get along. How going along to get along goes with the word progressive, I still haven’t figured out yet. Seems to me that in theory as well as practice, it goes better with status quo. If Rahm were here, I’m sure he’d point out to me how fucking stupid my thinking is.
I was thinking today about how I related to Obama because I’m a get along and win-win negotiate kind of person, but where win-win negotiations actually take a lot more complex knowledge base as well as reasoning. You could see the health care bill as a great way for a well-meaning guy who wants to be liked can go as wrong as an evil guy who wants to hang out with the corrupt. I have a whole explanation for how that would be that’s more like a diary than a comment.
She’s false opposition. Katrina V. is a false opposition traitor (just like Obama). Someone needs to write a book about how these Machiavellian media manipulators work for the elites. They (try) to control all sides of the debate so they can herd people in what ever direction they want. Katrina apposed fixing the blatantly fraudulent electronic voting machines too. (See they control the vote count and flip control it back and forth between their false opposition fascist right wing left wing parties). I knew they that she’s is a snake.
See they put people like her out there to try and get a following (sheeple like to be led and are too lazy to think critically). Pied pipers like her will say all the right things to build up a following of sheeple then when the time is right her bosses call and they use her (she’s an “it” really … what a despicable creatures these pied pipers are) to steer the sheeple right into the Slaughter house.
Katrina doesn’t speak for progressives (never has)… People like Dennis Kucinich and you Jane speak for progressives.
Then there’s nothing to lose by allowing Republicans to win some seats. They have the mission from their base to thwart Obama no matter what he tries to do and they actually care about their base. If he keeps the numbers he has now, he’ll just use his majorities for crap like gutting Medicare. Wouldn’t that be rich if Harkin took up the filibuster rule just in time for us to be stuck with crappy HCR but make it easier for them to do entitlement reform if they lose some senate seats. I think we should all vote, but write in a name like Howard Dean. If they lose from lack of votes, they will say that it means they have to tack right and be fiscally conservative so let’s reduce the deficit by doing entitlement reform and good thing we didn’t do a public option! If they have Howard Dean written in as a candidate for every position across the country where there are no true progressive options, it will send the message that you didn’t get the votes because you weren’t progressive enough on health care. If we could get Republicans to do it in their primaries as well, it could really send a message. It’s not that rank and file Republicans are happy with status quo and party of no, they want real reform, too. Plus, the fact that Dean has run for Pres before might scare the shit out of Rahm and Obama because it would be like a 2010 inkling of how widespread support for a primary challenger might be and how unwilling the base is to vote Obama because he’s the only thing keeping us from a President Palin. We have other options, assholes, so get yourselves in line!
Exactly my feelings.
I think we need to recognize the reality of this as a coalition government of two private parties whose common goal is the protection and promotion of the old industrial/banking economy. You know, that economy that’s killing the planet and conducting wars in it’s interests?
(Sorry if you’ve read that before from me, it’s just with all the noise on this channel sometimes it’s hard to be heard clearly.)
To me it’s not very sophisticated to be constantly complaining about the Dems or Obama as corporatist sellouts. These are people whom the existing ruling coalition has elevated to power.
I mean, does the United States look like a democracy to you? It has a fairly democratic structure that is controlled by a coalition of private institutions. That’s why it’s so successful. That’s why the last century is called ‘The American Century.’
Taking this coalition point of view I come to the following conclusions:
1. It DOES matter which party is dominant.
2. Losing an election is not the end of the world for either party. They still share in the spoils, just not as much. Even individual candidates who may lose or chose not to run again find a waiting job somewhere within the coalition machinery.
3. Given the two private party structure, what needs to happen is: shift the center Green-ward. (It already is, socially; just not politically.)
This means creating enough weight to either attract the Democratic Party toward the Green, forcing the Republican Party to follow toward center, or letting the Democratic party assume the Republican party ‘corporatist’ position (by standing still) as the ultra right rump of the Rep. party joins LaRouche et al in irrelevancy and the Social Greens (my name for this new grouping) takes the left.
All manner of different tactics flow from this view. I have my ideas of what they would be. But since there are different strokes for different folks, I’ll not get into that now. But needless to say, in my mind the allies are in the green meadows, not the red hills.
This is Paul Street’s take on Katrina Vanden Heuvel, from his December 23, 2009 article on ZNet, entitled: “The (Fading) Call of Obama,” which is again, a very insightful and detailed read!!! In the article, Street shows how wrong the liberal gatekeepers have been about Obama. He also highlights the fine analysis about Obama by John Pilger, who by the way, won the Sydney Peace Prize for 2009!!!
“….Will the liberal and progressive disillusionment with Obama continue and deepen? Let’ hope so. Few things have been less pleasant to behold in the last few years than what the radical filmmaker and author John Pilger has termed “the Call of Obama” to people of “liberal sensibilities.“…”It is not unlike a dog whistle,” Pilger noted last October: “inaudible to most, irresistible to the besotted and boneheaded.” As an emblematic early example, Pilger quoted a comment from the noted liberal Hollywood superstar George Clooney, who said the following on the Charlie Rose Show in December of 2006: “He walks into a room and you want to follow him somewhere, anywhere.”….There have been many examples since Clooney, including numerous Obama followers with considerably more elevated intellectual qualifications than Clooney. One such example is Robert Kuttner, the leading left-liberal public intellectual and editor of the weekly liberal policy and politics journal The American Prospect. Kuttner’s dreams of Obama were summarized in a rapidly written book published just before the election under the title Obama’s Challenge: America’s Economic Crisis and the Power of a Transformative Presidency….Obama, Kuttner fantasized, could “be that rare transformational leader,” Kuttner claimed, because “his personal odyssey, writings, and speeches suggest a capacity to truly move people and shift perceptions as well as bridge differences…they suggest more a principled idealist than a cynic.”….Kuttner fantasized that the recession Obama inherited from Bush would spark him to apply his “truly transformative” self in progressive and even “radical” ways…..”
“…Another example is Katrina Vanden Heuvel, editor of the liberal weekly public affairs magazine The Nation. “Whatever one thinks of Obama’s policy on any specific issue,” Vanden Heuvel proclaimed last month, “he is clearly a reform president committed to improvement of peoples’ lives and the renewal and reconstruction of America… Progressives should focus less on the limits of the Obama agenda,” Vanden Huevel intoned, “and more on the possibilities that his presidency opens up.” How Vanden Heuvel could have come to include the word “clearly” in light of the President’s numerous rightward and center-leaning policy decisions was something of a mystery, assuming that The Nation’s top authority meant what she wrote. As one totals up the president’s cumulatively reactionary record of policies (and non-policies) on numerous specific issues – energy, health, war, labor rights, war, militarism – it becomes rather difficult to sustain the image of Obama as anything but a business and war president, certainly not a people’s reformer. It was difficult to see a leader of America’s so-called radical left so easily hooked by the deceptive marketing that left author Chris Hedges has written about in connection with the president: “Barack Obama is a brand. And the brand designed to make us feel good about our government while corporate overlords loot the Treasury, our elected officials continue to have their palms greased by armies of corporate lobbyists, our corporate media diverts us with gossip and trivia and our imperial wars expand in the Middle East. Brand Obama is about being happy consumers. We are entertained. We feel hopeful. We like our president. We believe he is like us. But like all branded products spun out from the manipulative world of corporate advertising, we are being duped into doing and supporting a lot of things that are not in our interest.”….”… President Obama does one thing and Brand Obama gets you to believe another. This is the essence of successful advertising.”"
I’m not going to call you an Obamabot, but why don’t you try and defend his actions in my post at 151. Because no big bad, mean ole Senator or Congressman made him trash the Constitution. He did that all by himself.
After campaigning on “a return to law in the U.S.” The man’s a liar. And, IMO, he is now impeachable, because his oath was to defend the US Constitution, not end it.
And if the country is soo not with us progressives on issues, why does Single Payer poll well so often?
I think Paul Street is in the process of writing another book related to Barack Obama and those perhaps on the “liberal” side who believed Obama was actually one of them.
Street already wrote a great book called: “Barack Obama and the Future of American Politics.”
Paradigm Publishers
ISBN: 978-1-59451-631-3
Publish date: October 2008
Book Description:
“….Many Americans believe Barack Obama represents a hopeful future for America. But does he also reflect the American politics of the past? This book offers the broadest and best-informed understanding on the meaning of the “Obama phenomenon” to date….Paul Street was on the ground throughout the Iowa campaign, and his stories of the rising Obama phenomenon are poignant. Yet the author’s background in American political history allows him to explore the deeper meanings of Obama’s remarkable political career.”
“Street looks at Obama in relation to contemporary issues of class, race, war, and empire. He considers Obama in the context of our nation’s political history, with comparisons to FDR, JFK, Bill Clinton, and other leaders. Street finds that the Obama persona, crafted by campaign consultants and filtered through dominant media trends, masks the “change” candidate’s adherence to long-prevailing power structures and party doctrines. He shows how American political culture has produced misperceptions by the electorate of Obama’s positions and values. Obama is no magical exception to the narrow-spectrum electoral system and ideological culture that have done so much to define and limit the American political tradition. This study differs from previous books on Obama in at least three ways: (1) Street’s determination to offer a balanced but critical assessment of the “Obama phenomenon” from a perspective shaped by years of engagement with Left theory and activism; (2) Street’s effort to understand the phenomenon in a deeply researched historical, societal, and institutional context, consistently relating Obama’s career and candidacy to the ongoing historical development and dilemmas of U.S. political culture; (3) Street’s ability to deepen his account by drawing on his considerable direct experience with the phenomenon over years as a civil rights researcher and advocate on the south side of Chicago (2000–2005) and as a campaign activist in Iowa during the long and critical Iowa primary (caucus) season of 2007–2008.”
I am not surprised at all by the role of the “slick willy” of establishment-progressivism, Katrina van der heuval, who has devoted most of her energy during and post election year to rationalize everything Obama and the Democrats do, and in teh process rationalize her own role and supposed relevance in this process. She shuts down conversation (watch her interview along with Adolph Reed Jr. on a Bill Moyers’ show from last year) with a glacial smile as bad as Palin’s wink. She might not be “effective” as a true leader in the sense of showing any genuine leadership for true leftist mobilization-or in her role as intellectual/journalist/editor–in making any real sense out of what is going on in the nation, she is certainly effective at forming (de-forming) public opinion as she helms one of the few standing “progressive” institutions in this country. Thanks Jane for continually exposing the Democrats and their apologists.
“There is no way any Democrat could under our current political environment pass any progressive legislation.”
Spadefba wrote.
Exactly. That’s why instead of treading water for the O admin and carrying water for the DLC, time to get to work without the Dems. A long haul that needs to start ASAP.
Obama wouldn’t make a pimple on a progressive’s ass.
He’s a neoliberal. Get used to it.
HCR BILL COOKED LONG TIME AGO—HCR COOKED BY MID-MARCH FOLKS!!!!! Yes, this article in BusinessWeek from the sunmmer says it all in a butshell folks. For those still denying Obama’s real motives or thiinking there was “real debate” in Congress think again, by reading the excerpts of this article here. You can read what I posted here of the article or go to the link at the bottome here. Debate my ass! If you believe in fantasy land. Thanks. Have at it folks:
businessweek.com
Cover Story August 6, 2009, 5:00PM EST
The Health Insurers Have Already Won
How UnitedHealth and rival carriers, maneuvering behind the scenes in Washington, shaped health-care reform for their own benefit
By Chad Terhune and Keith Epstein
“….As the health reform fight shifts this month from a vacationing Washington to congressional districts and local airwaves around the country, much more of the battle than most people realize is already over. The likely victors are insurance giants such as UnitedHealth Group (UNH), Aetna (AET), and WellPoint (WLP). The carriers have succeeded in redefining the terms of the reform debate to such a degree that no matter what specifics emerge in the voluminous bill Congress may send to President Obama this fall, the insurance industry will emerge more profitable. Health reform could come with a $1 trillion price tag over the next decade, and it may complicate matters for some large employers. But insurance CEOs ought to be smiling…..Executives from UnitedHealth certainly showed no signs of worry on the mid-July day that Senate Democrats proposed to help pay for reform with a new tax on the insurance industry. Instead, UnitedHealth parked a shiny 18-wheeler outfitted with high-tech medical gear near the Capitol and invited members of Congress aboard. Inside the mobile diagnostic center, which enables doctors to examine distant patients via satellite television, Representative Jim Matheson didn’t disguise his wonderment. “Fascinating, fascinating,” said the Democrat from Utah. “Amazing.””
“….The industry has already accomplished its main goal of at least curbing, and maybe blocking altogether, any new publicly administered insurance program that could grab market share from the corporations that dominate the business. UnitedHealth has distinguished itself by more deftly and aggressively feeding sophisticated pricing and actuarial data to information-starved congressional staff members. With its rivals, the carrier has also achieved a secondary aim of constraining the new benefits that will become available to tens of millions of people who are currently uninsured. That will make the new customers more lucrative to the industry….Matheson, whose Blue Dogs command 52 votes in the House, can’t offer enough praise for UnitedHealth, the largest company of its kind. “The tried and true message of their advocacy,” he says, “is making sure the information they provide is accurate and considered.””
“….Despite such episodes, UnitedHealth is generally well received in legislative circles in Washington. In late May its in-house point man on reform, Simon Stevens, hand-delivered a report to key senators detailing ways to save an estimated $540 billion in federal spending over 10 years. A week later, on June 4, Stevens accompanied UnitedHealth’s chief executive, Stephen J. Hemsley, to a meeting with Senator Kent Conrad (D-N.D.), an influential moderate member of the Senate Finance Committee. Conrad has since led an effort to create nonprofit medical cooperatives that would operate much like utility co-ops as a substitute for a federally run plan. With less heft than a proposed national plan, the state medical cooperatives would pose a far weaker competitive threat to private insurers….Conrad says in an interview that the co-op idea evolved independently of any industry input. Skirmishing over the public plan could jeopardize efforts at reform, he warns. Co-ops, he argues, are “the only alternative that’s got much of a shot” to gain sufficient votes in the Senate.”
Read the entire article @:
http://www.businessweek.com/print/magazine/content/09_33/b4143034820260.htm
Check out the Anti-Rahm Emanuel Healthcare Advertisement. Rahm = Weak @:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNAZHcKP6QY&feature=player_embedded
Progressive Change Committee Advertisement playing in Chicago, Illinois!!!
“A lot of us back home hope Rahm Emanuel is fighting for people like us as White House Chief of Staff. But if he sides with the insurance companies and undermines the public option, well, he won’t have many fans in Chicago,” says the constituent Joseph Breitenbucher in the ad.
He tells the story of an insurance company trying to avoid paying for his spinal surgery, but his wife helped him out because she knew the particulars.
Emanuel has never ruled out an eventual return to public office. This ad will not do him any favors with the people of Chicago.
Obama has already made his many decisions….Only the delusional still think he can be moved….Obama has never been with the left and Emanuel detests the left even more so. Obama will NOT BE MOVED TO THE LEFT EVER!!!! Obama is a CORPORATIST!!!!
Can you [Edited by Moderator. Calling your readers names is not conducive to having a following]?
Hahaha, love it!
Mind if I use that on occassion? (with proper acknowledgment of it’s source)
Even if insuranced coverage is extended to 100% of those uncovered by insurance, insurance coverage that is ineffective, overpriced, and capriciously administered is NOT health care, and neither the Senate nor the House bill provide anything approaching health care reform. Accordingly, even if Obama is 100% correct in getting what he wanted, he’s still wrong because he has not really been pursuing health care reform.
“I’m surprised that the editor of the Nation would take part in it.”
Really? You’re surprised that the central beltway mouth piece publication of the Democratic Party (and probable CIA front) is serving to shield a craven Democratic administration from highly deserved criticism?!? With this level of unwarranted trust of insider political institutions, it’s becoming clearer and clearer to me why your/FDL’s efforts on health care have been so glaringly ineffective.
Are you going to call for a clawback of donations to Democratic Reps. who soon sellout their public option promise?!? http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/12/28-2 (House Backers of Public Insurance Option May Yield)
I should hope so, but given the fact that so much of this site’s efforts are devoted to trying to gain the acceptance and influence of The Democratic Party, without first requiring the Democrats to show even the smallest hint of progressivism (in action, rather than speech), I won’t expect it.
In our current political atmosphere, “Naderite” is one of the highest compliments that could be paid to one of progressive/social democratic leaning. I wish FDL would embrace it, and start putting some focus on/money towards independent and Green candidates. As long as your votes and campaign dollars are guaranteed in advance to Democratic candidates, it won’t matter if a few Blue Dogs get knocked off in primaries; FDL would go a lot further by adopting the standard that no Democrat, nor any establishment “liberal” media outlet (whether The Nation, MSNBC, Salon, etc.) is entitled to support before EARNING IT. By offering campaign cash to Democrats merely on the basis of empty promises and by assuming that the Beltway “progressive” crowd is actually on “our side”, you’re ceding the war before the battle even starts.
It absolutely does. The right does not absolutely care what is in the bill. They are against whatever Obama tries to do. and now you Jane are helping them out. Where are you going with this? what really are you trying to accomplish? What do you expect to happen with all these posts? “Shine the light” you say and then what???? If you have a plan that includes us successfully implementing a progressive agenda why don’t you share it with all of us including who do you thing you have in congress and senate that will vote with you in your plan. Or maybe you hope that after another republican congress and president people might be scared and try again? in 2020 maybe??
Another very interesting take on American culture and neoliberalism can be found at Truthout.org from December 23, 2009 in an article written by Professor Henry A. Giroux’s entitled: “Reclaiming Public Values in Age of Casino Capitalism,” which illustrates the consumer aspects of life and the lack of real learning by the people in the U.S.A. Here is are twon excerpts:
“…In spite of the fact that some notions of the public good have been recalled from exile in light of the economic recession and the election of Barack Obama, many young people and adults today still view the private as the only space in which to imagine any sense of hope, pleasure or possibility. Market forces continue to focus on the related issues of consumption, excessive profits and fear. Reduced to the act of consuming, citizenship is “mostly about forgetting, not learning” in spite of the hyped-up and increasing appeal to bearing the burden collectively of hard times – a burden that always falls on the shoulders of working people, but not the banks or other commanding financial institutions. Moreover, as social visions of equity and justice cede to public memory, unfettered brutal self-interests combine with retrograde social polices to make security and safety a top domestic priority. One consequence is that all levels of government are being hollowed out, reducing their role to dismantling the gains of the welfare state as they increasingly construct policies that now criminalize social problems, sell off public goods to the highest corporate bidders and prioritize penal methods over social investments. Increasingly, notions of the public cease to resonate as a site of utopian possibility, as a fundamental space for how we reactivate our political sensibilities and conceive of ourselves as critical citizens, engaged public intellectuals and social agents. The growing lack of justice in American society rises proportionately to the lack of political imagination and collective hope. We live at a time when the forces and advocates of a market-driven fundamentalism and militarism not only undermine all attempts to revive the culture of politics as an ethical response to the demise of democratic public life, but also aggressively wage a war against the very possibility of creating noncommodified public spheres and forums that provide the conditions for critical education, link learning to social change, political agency to the defense of public goods and intellectual courage to the refusal to surrender knowledge to the highest bidder. Understood as both a set of economic policies and an impoverished notion of citizenship, neoliberalism represents not just a series of market-driven programs, but also a coherent set of cultural, political and educational practices that mobilize communities around shared fears and collective insecurities……Unlike some theorists who suggest that politics as a site of contestation, critical exchange and engagement has either come to an end or is in a state of terminal arrest in light of the current calls for patriotic unity, I believe that the current, depressing state of politics points to the urgent challenge of reformulating the crisis of democracy as part of a fundamental crisis of vision, meaning, education and political agency. Politics devoid of a democratic vision degenerates into either cynicism or appropriates a view of power that appears to be equated only with domination. Lost from such accounts is the recognition that democracy has to be struggled over – even in the face of a most appalling crisis of political agency and threats to national security. There is also little attention paid to the fact that the struggle over politics and democracy is inextricably linked to creating public spheres where individuals can be educated as political agents equipped with the skills, capacities and knowledge they need not only to actually perform as autonomous political agents, but also to believe that such struggles are worth taking up. Central here is the assumption that politics is not simply about power, but also, as the philosopher Cornelius Castoriadis pointed out, “has to do with political judgments and value choices,” indicating that questions of civic education – learning how to become a skilled citizen – are central to both the struggle over political agency and democracy itself….”
Full article can be read @: http://www.truthout.org/1223094
now there’s a member of the informed electorate!
Jeesuz… what a joke.
Jane Hamsher in the words of philosopher Cornelius Castoriadis is that “skilled citizen” who is also clearly very educated on the issues in the battle to maintain this democracy in America. Others, perhaps, who enable this market fundamentalist society are just fine with seeing the state being hollowed out, in favor of the corporations taking over completely, as the public space becomes smaller and smaller.
I am glad that Jane, just like, Paul Street, Bruce Dixon, Kevin Alexander Gray, Margaret Kimberley, Sherry Wolf, Sharon Smith Lee Sustar, Lance Selfa, John Pilger, Henry Giroux, Noam Chomsky and Ralph Nader, understands what is going on and that they are not afraid to take issue after issue head on, as it should be in a “democracy of the people.”
Jane Hamsher, as I have said before, and mean it, is the New Thomas Paine of the Internet!!!!!
Great debate here. Lots of good ideas. A few observations offered for comment/criticism:
1. Realistically, once this bill passes, it cannot be repealed before 2013 at the earliest. It is extremely unlikely that there will be a veto proof Republican majority coming out of this in 2010. So what’s the best that could happen in 2010? Maybe a few “Centrist” (read right wing) Democrats get the boot. Maybe, just maybe, a third party candidate gets elected into the house or senate. (Query: Is this even realistically possible this year?). That’s the only real threat we can bring to any member of congress right now. Nelson is not up for re-election until 2012. Landrieu is up in 2010, and a potential target. Lieberman is out in 2012, no chance in hell of reelection, so no effective threat there.
2. It seems to me that the key to the entire bill in terms of cost containment lies in the rate of the fines for non-compliance with the individual mandate. Control the fines, and you control significant economic elements of the healthcare industry. That’s because if premiums go too much above the fines, healthy people start to deploy the ‘pay the fine’ option, starving the insurance industry of revenue. If I remember correctly, the fines are currently indexed to inflation, meaning that in theory premium increases should not much outpace inflation over the long run. But even better would be if the result of the conference process could include a provision to allow the executive branch to lower, but not increase, the fines.
3. I just came from my doctor. He’s been in practice since the 1960s. He is a big supporter of the Public Option, if not outright single payer. However, he supports passage of the current bill, Senate or House version, even with its current flaws. He says the hospitals are really suffering now because of the recession/depression. People without insurance crowding the emergency rooms. He says if the bill passes it will never be repealed because the hospitals will throw everything they can into maintaining it. If I were a hospital administrator, starting in 2014 I’d have someone on staff whose sole job was to corral all the uninsured people who wandered into the emergency room and get them signed up for the best insurance available. How exactly is that gonna work, anyway?
4. Once this bill passes, expect a flurry of rule making at the administrative level. This is where the Corporate lobbyists will descend thicker than the worst imaginable biblical plague of locusts. Progressives need to be there, too, ready, willing, and able to influence that process.
5. What’s to keep someone from buying insurance only when they get sick, then canceling it once treatments are complete, then buying it again next time they get sick? I don’t have an answer to this. Does anyone know if the bills address this?
6. [Plaintive wailing voice] Why does healthcare reform have to be sooooo hard?
Oh yes, a joke indeed. What I hear people saying is, “It doesn’t matter who the bill serves, because it is serving Obama.” Forcing us to do business with the private health care insurance is like forcing us to do business with organized crime. I resent being told that I can’t descent. No one does my thinking for me, vanden Heuvel, Huffington, Obama, Emaunel or anybody else. We will see who is being served by Obama’s health care reform a year from now.
Katrina of the eggs?
“Are you going to call for a clawback of donations to Democratic Reps. who soon sellout their public option promise?!? http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/12/28-2 (House Backers of Public Insurance Option May Yield)”
Uh, yeah, about that, if some sell out they really should give me my cash back. I worked for it, and wanted to support them taking a principled stand for people. It’d be pretty fucking dishonest to go back on their word and then keep the money. Donate it to a children’s charity maybe, if you’re a lying sellout, but don’t keep it.
So, maybe sombody can help me with the rules here? If I register as an Independant, do I get to vote in Republican primaries? If we’re going to have a shitstorm of new reps in congress (which we are), I’d kind of like to have some influence in selecting them. Looking at ones who don’t seem corrupt, or on a mission from Gaad. Or would I have to register as a republican, don’t mind doing that.
Feel free. It’s an old Navy expression, interchangeable as desired, eg, he wouldn’t make a pimple on a bo’sn mate’s ass. *g*
i’m a big tent kinda guy …
i can easily overlook and forgive Katrina for turning on progressives …
more difficult to forgive turning on Jane ….
WHAT ??
Depends upon your state. Some states have open primaries where anybody can vote for anybody; others are closed, where you can only vote in the primary of the party you’re registered in. There are usually “non-partisan” local/state issues also on the ballot that everybody can vote on. FL is a closed primary state so as an Independent, or No Party Affiliation they call it here, I can only vote on the “non-partisan” ballot, which would contain no candidates for office.
Thank you very much, I’ll check it out!
Is that what you’re saying? That disagreeing and with her and turning your back on her is a terrible mistake?
I think that would be wrong of you. We can disagree and still value each other despite disagreement.
After all, I’m sure that Grover and Jane don’t agree on everything… isn’t Katrina almost as acceptable?
Don’t forget to check on the registration rules. Last year was the first time I switched registration just to vote in the Dem primary, then switched back to NPA before the general election. Gotta pay attention to the cutoff dates to change registration.
Yeah, Virginia ia an open primary state. In fact, in Virginia, you don’t register as anything. no D, R, or I. You just register to vote (and get picked for jury duty).
For years, I have been thinking that only right wing nuts could be so simplistic in their responses to complex political issues. For me, being progressive always meant being compassionate, and thoughful, and having a realistic approach to how the goal could be achieved.
I admit, I was wrong. I am reading these hundreds of responses, and they look to me as if they have been originated at a tea-bag party. Just change the “-” sign to a “+” sign.
Looks pretty sad to me
Sorry we’ve let you down.
Perhaps you could stick around and improve things a bit.
It’s the best site on the intertoobs, IMHO.
The OldFatGuy is right about the site. This crap is an aberrational response to having hope for a decent healthcare bill dashed to shit.
People here are taking it hard and with good reason.
Soon better thoughts about how to proceed will emerge.
This, after the no strings attacked bail outs of Wall Street, after asserting that credit, not good jobs, are the lifeblood of the economy, after the extension of FISA, after caving to the GOP and scuttling demand stimulus, after abandoning efforts to stop foreclosures, after no movement to create jobs, after not closing Guantanamo, after trumpeting his support for war while receiving the Nobel Peace Prize and after promoting an individual mandate which he ran against, yeah, its an aberrational response to an aberrational president who ran as a transformative leader who would bring change to Washington and the financial system.
What is the proper reaction to being baited and switched on everything BUT Af-Pak, for running a progressive, pragmatic themed campaign and governing as Bush III once elected?
WL… I think most of us, at least I, saw the businessweek article from the summer… and I think it was even briefly picked up by the NYT… but of course, corporate msm didn’t carry it.
Also, I saw the great speech by John Pilger from 7-4-09 on youtube… called Obama and Empire… it is a really great speech… about 30 min.
He clearly identified the Obama “fine print” that was evident from before the beginning of his campaign… but then Pilger does end on a positive note laying out a lot of evidence for grassroots level reform and momentum building in this country… of which FDL is a part of.
The fact that Emanuel colluded behind the scenes with the medical insurance complex has been long known on this site…
but still it’s worth repeating because perhaps some bots might acutally read it and get enlightened…
Long shot I know… but we were all “enlightened” somewhere along the way…
The “decent healthcare bill” is a single payer universal health care bill. Is it realistic to have it? Absolutely not. Politics, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on the point of view) is the art of possible. In the current reality of our country at the end of 2009, the single payer bill is outside of any possible political trajectory. At least, that what I conlcluded after closely watching debates and political deals in the last 11 months.
You could say otherwise, but from my perspective, it would be just an article of faith.
I am not surprised at all by Katrina’s letter urging us to ignore Obama’s role in eliminating the public option. How else is she going to get invited to morning joe if she is not viewed as an insider to the democratic party. The democrats are scared as hell that progressives are thru with their party and this administration and they are reining in the left to make sure we know our place. They dont respect us when they are in office but they know they cant win offices without us, so now it is time to get Washington progressives to go out and mislead the rest of us. The only way we are going to get respected by the dem party is by letting them lose badly the next two elections. I have seen enough to know that Obama is never going to be the president we thought we voted for and I cant imagine him becoming that president once he has been reelected and has nothing to fear from us. I for one am no longer throwing away my vote, going door to door and making phone calls for a democratic party that ignores us once they are in office. Just an example of how the dems operate is that my congress woman Mary Jo Kilroy campaigned with and asked for endorsements from ACORN and the moment it was time to support them she voted to strip them of their funding bcz it was the political expedient thing to do. So much for loyalty huh? The only thing I want to hear from Obama is his concession speech.
The chasm between Single Payer and this piece of shit is wiiiiiiide indeed. Jane herself didn’t openly support Single Payer, in fact railed against a bunch of us for being too naive about it’s chances.
But the compromise was supposed to be a Public Option. Once they removed the Public Option, and nearly every other part of the bill that would help contain costs and protect consumers, only then did Jane turn around and campaign against the bill.
To suggest this is the best bill we could get is equally as wrong as it is to suggest that Single Payer was possible, IMHO.
Yeah, its so far out in extreme left field to want Americans to pay the same rates for medications as they do in Europe rather than paying the highest rates in the world and subsidizing others who are on average better off economically than we are.
When we should have been doing high visibility actions for Medicare for All early on so that the space for single payer would have been unavoidable for the Dems.
Like the Dems, we compromised with ourselves too early, especially labor.
I agree that the voted weren’t there, but you need to understand that people here saw that there was a shot for a whole lot more than this poor piece of sausage.
These are some pretty good folks.
If Obama doesn’t manage to destroy SocSec or Medicare or both in his first term, I’ll be sure to vote for someone who could beat him, – even Palin.
For as only a Republican, Nixon, could go to China. Only a Democrat can destroy these great ‘entitlements’.
Yes, it is worth repeating, lest some forget or don’t yet know, or get it yet….
I am new to FDL but like what I see here. I do not go on blogs very much and my days here will not be that long, either…..Another week and I will be off of FDL as well.
Blogs and I do not mix quite well. I do like seeing Jane Hamsher advocate for the truth though. I have seen her on TV and hear her on radio shows and the lady knows what is up and not. I wish the country had more Jane Hamsher’s. She is very refreshing, indeed and a breath of fresh air to boot!!! Yet, above all else, it’s Jane’s energy which I admire the most.
Good points there….Obama and the Democrats dating back to Clinton have already started to unravel Medicare….Obama’s denial of an annual increase to Social Security should send more red flags than is presently the case…..Obama is a Republican and a “Democrat” in name only–his hero being Ronald Reagan.
The proper reaction is to snap out of thinking that electing Obama meant that everything was going to be candycanes instead of crap and compromises.
He was elected by a majority of the voters and they don’t want the same things that you want.
No president gets a magic wand, he gets a congress.
And again I say: “Remember Nader 2000″.
It’s very brave, of course, to post radical stuff. Somebody posted here about the joy of “primarying Obama”
You may be 10,000 times right in criticizing Obama, but please think what the real consequences of your actions could be.
Doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results is precisely the advice you are peddling. This time, you think!
I’ve decided not to let myself get too worked up about the horrible heath insurance sell-out (aka Obama’s waterloo). Why? The nasty parts like the mandate (clearly unconstitutional and clearly fascism) will get repealed. But But But… the Republicans won’t have a filibuster proof majority you say? So What. They will have a majority and that’s all it will take to change the Senate rules. See feckless corporatist Democrats like Harry Reid just don’t get it… Senate Republicans will tell foolish sell-out criminals like him to go F themselves and change the rules to get the job done. Right now republicans don’t look like much of a threat but if they remake themselves into the pro-freedom anti-corporatist pro-business post neo-con party like I think they will, the anti-progressive neo-feudal democrats are toast for at least another generation. What one year of false hope and no change has proven is the Democrats are neither progressive nor capable of leading. Its too bad because opportunities like the one they’ve just blown don’t come along very often. Jane keep up the good fight! We love you.
Like voting Democratic as opposed to Republican, you mean? I don’t see anything in my post that could have provoked this response of yours.
Fair enough. But I would also like to think about what the real consequence of never holding Democrats accountable to their base would mean.
And Ralph Nader had nothing to do with W becoming President in 2000, so I’m very comfortable in remembering that.
I too can’t wait for 2012 and the chance to vote against this lying SOB. BTW, I would be interested to hear your take on another issue. Could you read my comment and link at 151 and explain to me how Obama is any different than any Republican would be on that issue?
Yes, the real consequences would be that progressives would be more dangerous to ignore. Obamacrats should contemplate the consequences of ignoring us.
This would be all well and good if Obama hadn’t campaigned for a public option to compete with private insurance and against mandates. Granted, we don’t all get what pols promise in campaigns.
But the real truth is that those goals could have been obtained in the reconciliation process without wasting many, many months of “negotiations” that were already forgone conclusions. Bush went straight to the reconciliation process for his tax cuts… Obama could have done the same if he had been serious.
Rather, Emanuel negotiated away any hope of the real reform Obama had campaigned on and sold out the middle class by March of this year… he made backroom deals with big PhRMA (Billy Tauzin in particular, whom Obama had CALLED OUT BY NAME in a campaign ad) so that we couldn’t negotiate drug prices as with Medicare. See the links slightly upthread from businessweek where this is all laid out.
So to get to this point, having been sold out 9 months ago, and have “progressives” saying Obama was just hamstrung by Congress is complete bullshit.
I don’t know what it will take to make the “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil” crowd see the truth. Do some investigating… the facts are out there.
ps… It took me about 6 weeks to see this is clearly how it went down… I was in Obamadenial too for a while until the writing on the wall became to clear for me to ignore.
The similarities with Reagan are rather chilling. Fine print, fine print.
Right, Nader was very dangerous to ignore. And he was often right in his criticism of Democrats in general and Gore specifically.
Thank you for the eight years of Bush and many more of Roberts/Alito
What are the real consequences of not supporting more of the same? The only thing democrats have to use to get our vote is we are not as bad as the guy we replaced, are you satisfied with voting for that? I am not. The difference btwn the two parties is not so great that it is going to be noticeably worse if the other party is in power. We at least have leverage with the democratic party bcz without us progressives they cant win elections, however, if we contine to vote them in office regardless of what they do once they get there we lose that leverage. If we are not going to use our power then we dont deserve it and the disrespect we get from the dems is warranted. The repubs respect their base why shldnt the dems? Sometimes you have to take a step back to move ahead and for us to continue to vote for dems and Obama is irrational and fear based. We are like an abused housewife who is afraid of the unknown so she stays and puts up with the abuse. Once the dems know for certain that if they dont do what they are elected to do we will let them lose elections then they will change how they treat the progressives, until then they are going to continue sticking you bcz they know your fear and hatred of republicans will keep you voting for them regardless of how they govern. PS: Any democrat who cant see the pitfalls of forcing people to buy insurance from private companies needs glasses. The forced mandates are going to be a democratic party killer in the future, perhaps that is why Obama does not want it to start until after he is reelected. Again I cant wait to hear his concession speech in 2012.
“But the real truth is that those goals could have been obtained in the reconciliation process without wasting many, many months of “negotiations” that were already forgone conclusions. Bush went straight to the reconciliation process for his tax cuts… Obama could have done the same if he had been serious”
Not true, really. The very mechanism of reconciliation does not allow so many things to be brought into the bill. And it has almost mandatory 5 year lifetime afterwards. Like Bush’s taxes.
Actually, many pieces missed in the current bill can be indeed added to the NEXT bill via reconciliation. But the framework for them should be made available by a 60 vote “regular” bill.
Why don’t you thank yourself for Roberts/Alito, heh? It’s Clintons Third Way that makes the Republican’s cakewalk over our rights in the name of Corporations possible. Do you believe for a second that Clinton, Rahm/Obama are upset about those two Supremes?
Of course you do, – that’s why the american voters have been loosing ground for the past 40 years.
“Again I cant wait to hear his concession speech in 2012.”
Thank you for making my point. I was very suspicious of left radicalism, seing it as a twin to the right radicalism.
You’ve proven it quite forcefully. Thank you again
I don’t “believe” in anything. As a scientist, I only trust mathematics and good logic, and my 5 senses, of course.
The polls indicate differently as concerns the public option and Wall Street bail outs.
Do you think that Obama is going to push for the repeal of Bush’s Taxes ?
Do you think he should?
What excuse will you manufacture when he won’t?
And they’re going to be getting more of it so long as we get more or less the same thing no matter who we vote for, so long as the Senate strikes provisions from bills that enjoy broad support and inserts those which enjoy no support and benefit their contributors.
I mean, shit, Obama ran as a candidate under the Change banner. Can you tell me, other than the skin color and last name of the occupant of the WH, what Change Obama has brought us? Change from war in Iraq to war in Iraq AND Afghanistan AND Pakistan?
It’s nice to hear a lonely voice of reason on this message board
But a “regular” bill doesn’t require 60 votes to pass, unless you make a conscience choice to make it require 60. The Democrats chose that route, rather than just passing a bill with 50 votes (Biden as tiebreaker) and they had at least 50 for a Public Opption and/or the Medicare buy in. So they had the votes to pass a better bill, and chose not to.
And is my computer the only that “locks up” in this thread? I type and the stuff doesn’t show up as I’m typing as it usually does in other threads. The cursor is stuck, or not blinking, then when I’m done typing it all shows up at once..
macaquerman agrees with Bush II that the whomever attacked the WTC hated Americans for our values, not for what our foreign policy has done to them.
Again, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
rebooting tends to square most things up.
It’s state dependent. Look into your state-level election regulations, which may require you to look into your local party-level election regulations in the event your state doesn’t strictly regulate primaries… seeing as how they’re not civic elections.
At least you admit it’s a lonely one. Just who thought it was going to be candycanes?
Leaving aside the constitutionality of a mandate, I’d appreciate it if someone would kindly refresh my memory as to the argument against a health insurance mandate. Short of a single payer system, how would a voluntary system be effective at controlling costs?
This was supposed to be a reponse to OldFatGuy @425
But it DOES, unless the opposition decides to NOT filibuster. And, as you know, Republicans are filibustering everything, and will continue doing it, no matter what.
Now, you can start talking about abolishing the filibuster option, but this requires 67 votes.
So, now what?
Practicing politics through coalition building and strategic alliances is older than the nation state, perhaps as old as the first human tribe. However, the search for ideological purity that is hostile to compromises is more usually found in the pews and tabernacles of the theocrats and, of course, the more secular philosophies of Mao’s China and Stalin’s Soviet Union. Hence, if we accept that what we have with Obama is an ideological agenda which however limited, is still lightyears away from a universe run by Dick Cheney, then with our eyes wide open, Progressives can form a strategic coalition with a less than ideal partner. At least, we will be confident in the knowledge that although we may not get all that we desire when we desire it, this allows us to move the Progressive agenda farther than would be the case if the Dick Cheneys rule this world. Hence, I do not think that disappointment with Obama’s incrementalism is a sufficient reason to abandon Obama and the Democrats. It is instead a reason to fight him harder for what we want since to abandon Obama and the Demcorats is to leave the field for the Rebublicans. There is simply no way a Progressive agenda can flourish in a poltical universe dominated by the rebublicans. The bottom line is this: incrementalist progress is better than no progress and it certainly sets the table for a continued effort to push a more progressive agaenda within the American political system.
It only requires 50 votes (Biden as tiebreaker) to abolish the filibuster, did you read the link?
And again, what member of Congress made Obama “compromise” on his statement during the campaign that he would end torture and return the rule of law to the USA when he chose to advocate before the SCOTUS that he has the authority to single handedly, with the stroke of a pen, declare anyone a non-person, and therefore not subject to any Constitutional, Geneva convention, or any other rights a person would get. See link at 151.
I’m still waiting for someone defending him to explain that one to me.
Senate procedure rules are passed and upended on simple majorities; 51 votes.
Good point about the fact that they chose to go the 60 vote route… as Rachel has repeatedly pointed out, 50+Biden would have gotten us there.
Thanks for mentioning that.
First of all, what’s this fetishization of controlling costs. We can bail out Wall Street but can’t subsidize healthcare? We can keep 200,000+ troops in Iraq and Afghanistan but can’t subsidize healthcare? How did we buy into that?
Second, the mandate forces people to buy insurance they can’t afford. As Obama said when he was mocking the mandate, do you think we can end homelessness by forcing everyone to buy a house?
Pre-existing conditions. Sure you can, no make that have to, buy insurance at triple the cost. You’re old but short of retirement age, too bad.
The subsidies are based on the ridiculous Federeal Poverty Level. Consider how many American families are living on the edge right now, maybe making $40,000 or more. And then force them to cut their income by $10,000? No way. They’ll be ruined, or they’ll be fined and get nothing, or they’ll become outlaws.
oh… but I believe the actual party line is that they attacked us for our “freedoms.”
No marcos, you fail to understand what i said to you about that. What I said was that you’ve no possible support for your theories about that.
Absent a public option and cost controls, an individual mandate only guarantees private insurers customers and guaranteed profit while not neccesarily providing health care coverage. Under the Senate bill, a family of 4 making 150% of poverty will have to pay 21% of their income to health care, premiums, copays and meds. Why didn’t anyone else ever think of that?
“Of course, it’s not that easy. It takes 67 votes to change a Senate rule, and it’s unlikely Democrats will be able to get that many when they’re struggling to corral 60 for health care reform. The rule was changed in 1975, when the number of senators needed to invoke cloture was dropped from 67 to 60. Chris Bowers suggests using the power of the vice president as presiding officer to force legislation through with 51 votes — otherwise known as the “nuclear option.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/24/grayson-filibuster-petiti_n_369082.html
Frankly, the letter seems rather lame to me. It is amazing that the Democratic Party and its vocal supporters think that they can get people to forget the fact that they also bear plenty of responsibility for the damage that was done to the country while Bush was in power. Who among them stuck their neck out? Feingold and a few others. Progressives have given Obama plenty of slack and he has given them nothing. I’m not going to list all of his retreats and reversals but he clearly refused to use his mandate to change Washington. He could have gone over the heads of the village idiots and reached out to his base and to parts of the conservative base and to the middle of the road voters, but he completely squandered that opportunity. Wasted it. Dissipated it as quickly as he could. We gave him a ton of slack this first year and he took us for granted. What a waste. What stupidity. What cowardice. Enough is enough. Wake up call to all Democratic Party operatives: what is good for the country and what is good for the Democratic Party are different. Stop putting party before country.
Don’t stop Jane! Ever! They will hate you because you aren’t a coward. They don’t like to be reminded so vividly of how quickly they sold out. The village idiots are all the preppy jerks who ran for class president in high school. Always wanted to be liked. Thin skinned cowards. Hence their hatred of real patriots. When was the last time the woman with a half a billion inheritance stuck her neck out for anything?? What a joke. Imagine what a real progressive could do with 500 million dollars!
Don’t ever stop Jane! Ever!
Please see my #440
Agreed, one doesnt get cooties from working with people with whom one disagrees, whether that person is Grover Norquist or Barack Obama.
That said, the only thing politicos understand is the threat of political oblivion, either their careers or losing a legislative contest in which they’ve invested significant capital. The moment one is taken for granted, one becomes powerless.
Why, your 440 also says it only requires 50 plus the Vice President to pass a bill.
Let’s assume that you are correct about the price and the care. This is in fact where we are. What is our next step? The immmeidatate answer it seems to me is to (1) protect the coverage and (2) make it affordable and effective. But how are you going to do that? It seems to me the only way yu can do so is to begin a campaign to fix the defects you have indentified. And you can bet your last dollar that you will have zero republican support to fix the bill by lowering costs and increasing the effectiveness of care since this runs counter to their philosophy of having the government acting in the health care market. You are still left with the Democrats and Obama. Flawed as they may be, they remain much more susceptible to the morality and logic of your arguments than the republicans would ever be. That is the battle you can win. To me then, that’s the battle you should fight.
“Good point about the fact that they chose to go the 60 vote route… as Rachel has repeatedly pointed out, 50+Biden would have gotten us there.
Thanks for mentioning that.”
Sir, I would LOVE to live in your reality. In my reality, 50+Biden could only achieve a few fragmented pieces of legislation that have anything to do with financial reconciliation. And those pieces would only have a lifespan of 5 (five) years. You should be better informed, I think, to make these assumptions
Good shot! I really like that one.
“Absent a public option and cost controls, an individual mandate only guarantees private insurers customers and guaranteed profit while not neccesarily providing health care coverage. Under the Senate bill, a family of 4 making 150% of poverty will have to pay 21% of their income to health care, premiums, copays and meds. Why didn’t anyone else ever think of that?”
Which will rise, if the insurance companies want to raise their rates. Or pharma, for that matter. Leeches. Wonder if they’ll be funding Obama’s re-election ‘hopes’, ya think?
The REALITY that we all live in is that 50 votes plus Biden can end the filibuster. Read the links.
Who says healthcare has to reduce the deficit? How about using that money we forked over to Wall Street? How about bringing home our 200,000+ troops in Iraq and Afghanistan?
“Flawed as they may be” Those who toady to power have that tattooed on their chests, right over the flaming skull.
That is the battle we can WIN? No, that’s the battle we just LOST!
It’s called “wishful thinking”, I guess. There are senate rules, and they work the way they work. Period.
I don’t think there is much sense in keeping this debate going, because, when you mis-quote the Senate rule, I can only re-iterate the same rule.
Sorry for wasting your time.
Alex
I respectfully ask you to please see the link and the quote in my post #440
Yet you somehow can’t resist
Yes, I am human, thus weak.
Nope, fold our hand as hopefully compromised now and spend the next two years making the case for Medicare for All, beefed up and fresh with a broader constituency.
Obama is going to move to cut entitlements, and progressives need to show him his ass on this turd while taking the one win from this process, the meme of Medicare for All, and set the terms of the upcoming debate.
Otherwise, we can kiss goodbye to Medicare, Unemployment Insurance, Social Security and Disability as we know it, just like Clinton fucked us on welfare.
Politics belongs to those who set the terms of the debate. We have the people on our side, and it is time for progressives to set the bar that others must acknowledge. Medicare for All is that opening.
I would ask that you read your own link at 440 and the link at HuffPo’s as it says the same thing.
Here’s how you end the filibuster for good with 50 votes, plus Biden.
Katrina vanden Heuvel is sitting comfortably at the top of the establishment ponzi scheme representing the “acceptable” left-wing (aka corporate milquetoast “pragmatic” New Democrat left-wing), flapping her gums alongside David Brooks and George Will at ABC. She’s a figurehead born with a silver spoon in her mouth, nothing more, and needs to step aside so that real citizens can organize, so that real leaders like Jane Hamsher can lead.
If we listen to failures like vanden Heuvel we’ll watch another Reagan revolution further dismantle our production apparatus and another Bush revolution further dismantle civil liberties in 2010, while she gets a pat on the head from her corporate masters at ABC for being part of the “pragmatic” and establishmentarian “left”.
You’ll get no argument from me on your first point. I believe the debate should have started with a commitment to covering everyone instead of how much it’s going to cost. But it didn’t. I’m asking the question within the context of a poorly framed debate, not because I want the debate to continue solely on those terms.
So if I understand the essence of your reply, the counter-argument to a mandate is that it would not address affordability?
On what grounds do opponents of the filibuster claim that it is not constitutional?
Hard to see how any Republican could dismantle our civil liberties more than Obama just did by arguing before the SCOTUS that with the stroke of a pen, he can deem anyone a non-person, and therefore not subject to any civil liberties. And by agreeing to not take the case at hand, as Obama had argued, the SCOTUS effectively supported this outcome.
This is true, but this means a revolution, the end of the Senate, a dictatorship. Bush was pretty close to that in 2006. You don’t want that to happen, do you? It’s not the end of the Senate Procedure by means of Senate Process. It’s an explosion, exactly as it’s called. None of serious left leaning constitutional scholars support it.
I am more than convinced that we will immediately democratic majority, as MANY Democratic senators will NOT vote for the nuclear option. Instead of the victory, you will get a defeat.
Because we won’t insist on them passing enhanced Medicare for All?
Wasn’t Hillary Clinton’s point that you need both (cost controls and mandate) for a viable universal healthcare system? In other words, you can’t really manage costs if the young and healthy can opt out.
It wouldn’t matter, as the majority vote determines the outcome anyway.
But I would argue that since the Constitution is clear on which votes requires supermajorities, and lists them, and doesn’t list “passing legislation” as one of them, that might be a start. After all, if the Senate and House decided that a SuperMajority of 70% was required (higher than the number required to over-ride a veto), then they’ve effectively, through Senate rules ended the Constitutioinal authority of a President to veto legislation.
Hey, you’re preaching to the choir.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-amending-executive-order-12425
Interpol granted Godhood by Obama, flushes the Constitution down the toilet
Why would you have to end up with one candidate? If you had a new party, which I am not convinced is the right way to go but am not convinced it is wrong, either, you would have primaries. You can have both conservative and progressive primary candidates and the one that best fits the views of the district will win. But at least both candidates will be against corporatism, for campaign finance reform, etc. As it is, we have a supposedly uniform party running under a platform that includes all kinds of things that are being killed off by our own. It’s worse to think that the Democratic majority is going to stand up for choice and have them be the ones to chip away at abortion rights than to know that all you can expect from them is to resist the influence of AHIP or the Catholic Bishops. I think it’s hard to see it when you’ve been raised in a two-party system, but in coalition governments, you have alliances of those who have some things in common and other things that are not all the time and it seems to work out well for them. So, as I said, I’m not sure it’s the way to go here, but I don’t assume it would be a disaster out of hand.
In a way I think it would be better to have more diverse parties because it guards against the kind of lockstep uniformity that lends itself to take over by one group, whether corporate or otherwise. If you are used to disagreeing with the people in your party over some things while holding a line on others, you don’t get as much of the crap that this post is about. Rally around your president? I just agreed that I had more in common with him on big issues, not that I’d follow him no matter what he did and he’d be an idiot to expect anything else. Both parties want to be big tent because it gives you power to have more people. If it is clearer on what grounds they can differ and still be in the tent, it seems to me that works better than assuming if they are in your tent, they agree with a whole broad platform.
So, now we are defending Minoritarianism as default?
I’ve been screaming to Kill the Senate for quite some time.
I ask again:
Do you think that Obama is going to push for the repeal of Bush’s Taxes ?
Do you think he should ?
What excuse will you manufacture if/when he won’t?
Even if I agree with you that we have just lost a battle, I say continue the fight. Losing a battle isn’t losing a war. And I agree with you on bringing home the troops. But as the asshole from Nigeria has just reminded us, we still need to protect ourselves against mass murderers.
Not sure where you’re getting that ending the filibuster would end the Senate and become a dictatorship, but with that type of hogwash (or bullshit more accurately) I can see no further point to engaging you on the issue. Would still love to hear your response to Obama’s arguments before the SCOTUS on the issue at post 151 though. Somehow I don’t think I’ll get one.
Have a good evening Alex, and best of luck to you in the future. Hope you’ll continue to read and post here at FDL, as IMO it is the best site on the toobz.
I’d love that. I think the more we talk, the easier it will be to get some kind of action together for 2010 by the time someone decides what action would be best. Don’t want to lose momentum. Gotta love bipartisanship, don’t you know (but I like Jane style better than Obama style).
Please check out this current diary. The bottom line is that the nuclear option, if exercised even once, destroys the filibuster — period, end of story.
It seems to me that Medicare for all both (1) extend health coverage and
(2) make it affordable and effective. However, no Republican in congress would ever agree to this. But many Democrats would. So as toough as this may be, I still see working with the Dems and Obama as a better and easier pathway to reaching your goal. Of course there is always the option of a third party but I don’t see one around the corner.
Op-Ed News
June 20, 2009
The War Party and its Faux-gressive Minions
By Cindy Sheehan
“For years now, I have been writing about the duplicity of the Democrats and the shocking similarity between the two parties when it comes to the use of state-sanctioned terrorism against innocent populations….This past week, after the betrayal of every American who elected Democrats to end the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, I am wondering if there is anyone still in this nation who thinks that there’s any significant difference between the war ideologies of Democrats and Republicans………..I know many faux-gressive entities on the “left” whose silence on this matter is so loud it’s hurting my eardrums. Where was MoveOn.org over these past few weeks when the Dems were bludgeoning their caucus to vote “Aye” to extend the war crimes in the Middle East? Where were Markos Moulitsas (Daily Kos) and his bloggers that day? The day the funding bill passed, I wandered over to The Daily Kos and saw that it was all a-twitter about Senator Ensign (R) having an extra-marital affair. Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer and Harry Reid may, or may not, be loyal spouses, but their calumny will kill, maim, torture or displace thousands of people over the next 4-8 years. I am not so interested in what happens in bedrooms as what happens in Democratic war zones……Faux-gressives MoveOn.org and The Daily Kos supported me, and my work, as long as it solely focused on the Bush regime and the Republicans. However, when I had a late in life epiphany and figured out that the Democrats were abusing the energy of the anti-war movement to regain power, and I started to speak out against the entire War Party, not just one-half of it, I was kicked off blogging for The Daily Kos and ostracized by the fully co-opted MoveOn.org. Nathan Diebenow of the Lonestar Iconoclast then accused me of “alienating” my friends, to add insult to injury…..”
Read the entire article @:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-War-Party-and-its-Faux-by-Cindy-Sheehan-090620-238.html
I need to add a little something to wizardleft’s post, since it’s also an insider secret. It isn’t Medicare that will be gutted first; it’s Medicaid. And you hit the nail on the head as to how that will come about. It already has in the state of Colorado.
The state Medicaid Dept. entered into a contract, leaked to the prospective contractor first, who then hurriedly formed an LLC here a couple of weeks before “magically” getting the award over 3 other lower, local (in-state) bidders. This is important because the contractor is a shell company of another semi-shell company under a holding company traded on the NYSE, ticker HMSY (Health Management Services). The shells are PCG (Public Consulting Group Inc, and the lesser Public Partnerships Limited .
What’s interesting is their openly stated “management” plan for Medicaid revenue and the guy who directs PCG: William Mosakowski. He’s a big shot on the Board of HMSY. In the last 10 days, including the failure to pay over 800 of our attendant workers in this FIRST pay period under their “management”, the stock was given to PPL/PCG employees as a benefit. It rose last week by $5 a share, closing at almost $50 (fifty). It was a short week, right? So Mosakowski benefits directly and HMSY, by following Mosakowski and a guy named Marshall via the SEC site, ALL track back to United HealthCare: Obama’s dealer mentioned in wiz’s article. And yes, it is the designated provider for this year’s Medicare contract across the nation, unless you choose a different carrier who will charge higher deductibles.
Effectively, O has given away Medicaid and Medicare to Wall Street. The companies above “manage” Medicaid in 16 other states. They use, and are trying to force Colorado to use, web-based time sheet processing for the program here called “Consumer Directed Attendant Support Services: CDASS”. Sounds great and grand, right? Wrong. Their sites mine information from any user, like most, except the programming is more invasive. My firewalls shriek if I even think about going to the time-sheet log in site. And for those who are not familiar with CDASS, it’s a direct result of a law suit heard and affirmed by the Supremes known as Olmstead, in which disabled persons are guaranteed the right to live in the least restrictive environment and receive reasonable accommodations under the ADA. IOW, the disabled can’t be forced into nursing homes at the whim of the state. So the program operates under a Medicaid waiver for each state AND it saves money since attendants help keep chronically ill persons from both nursing home placement and high-cost hospitalizations (for lack of care).
Think a minute about whom it really pisses off. How about insurance companies, nursing homes, private home health care agencies, and anyone else in the business of making money from the ill or disabled? Factor in these contrived “public” contractors with ties directly to Wall Street. They invest the several billion $$ of the contract into their holding company assets, buy shares before the contract is signed, make participation in the program nearly impossible for participants who finally opt out in frustration when they can’t get their workers paid, sell the stock before the opt outs start raising eyebrows and rake in billions in profit on both ends.
So, the public disclosure of United HealthCare for Medicare was a decoy. The REAL target is state Medicaid programs (much bigger fish!) in order to force people back under the corporate umbrella for care; and help the health care industries, in all their myriad forms, become as much, if not more, profitable than they ever were. Oh, and without meaning it as an oversight or slight, this “onion” of a company has a gun pointed directly at the heads of the elderly who may also have, however briefly, received Medicaid services like in-home health care. In Colorado they can take your house and property after you die, regardless of what your Will might say.
I haven’t been able to find any implementing federal legislation that allows states to gamble federal Medicaid money on Wall Street. Anyone out there know how it was made possible, when even Bush had to ask Congress to gamble Medicare on the stock market and was turned down?
Which is why the insurance model has to be shoehorned with such things as the individual mandate to not fail.
What we need is 2 more years of work, to build support for Medicare for All financed by a small increase in the business tax. There is a fair argument to be made that the business community would support the certainty of a 2% taxation to the uncertainty of negotiating with private insurers in small pools.
Closing off votes requires the supermajority, not passing legislation. Just because the Democrabs have no spine and don’t push the rules to their limits to advance their cause does not mean that the rules mean anything different.
Just because a vote passes with a supermajority before a veto does not mean that the same vote will hold after a veto.
You’re talking out your ass legally here, fatoldman, and you’d be spouting out the opposite cheek were your cause better advanced to the contrary, say, were there 55 votes to do some violence to reproductive rights or union rights or health reform for that matter, should it pass.
We need to do all of the above, because we don’t know what’s going to work, and that means figuring out ways to concentrate our fire towards common ends rather than against one another.
Part of that is going to involve making life very uncomfortable for Obama the further he cements the status quo instead of bringing any of the Change he promised.
It is not just the “progressive fringe” which is disgusted with Obama’s performance so far, but mainstream Democrat liberals. Our task is to bring a coalition strong enough to compel Obama to deliver on the change he promised.
You had better hurry. I’m with you on this, as are many other Americans (including my die-hard Republican family members. I’m the liberal progressive black sheep).
Never trust people who say, “Just trust me.”
And where is wealth to transfer from? The equity in home mortgages – got that out. 401ks – got it. The rest of retirement funds from successful Boomers retiring prior to age 65 – underway despite and under HCR. Savings, what little Americans had/have, has always been a target of the Fed in lean times. They want it “in the marketplace”. Not suggesting this wealth transfer is a goal of HCR so much as an ideological parameter – policies should seek household wealth and get it “circulating.” Resisting these lootings is not progressive but self-preservation.
We are at a truly transformative moment right now.
William S. Burroughs said the “Naked Lunch” was the moment frozen in time when everyone saw what was at the end of everyone else’s fork.
That is now.
Exactly. I have no problem with being mandated to buy top-notch no co-pay insurance for $100/year. My problem is being unable to buy crappy insurance that will drive me out of my home.
It’s not like Obama would veto a public option. Why do we need 60 votes to override a veto?
That is my fear.
We need to get to work fast. I don’t trust Obama enough to give him four more years to deliver on his promise to do the right thing.
I’m all for it. We’ll need all the help we can get if we are going to beat the corporations with all their money and power. That’s why they not only marginalize both right and left, but do their best to pit us against each other so we never realize that we have things in common.
Isn’t the main point that Obama ran as a progressive? If McCain were doing this, I wouldn’t be outraged like I am with Obama. He let us know before the vote what kinds of things he would do. When you take the votes you get from saying you’ll do one thing and then do another, that’s something we can’t put up with.
Four years? I’d recall his ass in four weeks if that were constitutional!
Organize for THIS, America!
Pretty please, FDL? It would be great to have a common cause against corruption site. There’s a lot of networking to do before elections and you know the networks aren’t going to help us out.
Well, naked or not, we were made into lunch on Christmas Eve. I’d like to avoid becoming dinner before the State of the Union, when they plan to have this through the House.
Or has everyone forgotten that this Bill has to go there first…. and can it be killed there?
Jane, we agree with you more than anyone else giving voice. My husband and I are sick over Obama and his administration, even more sick than we were over Bush because we expected this shit from Bush. We are disheartened at the loss of representation and real compromise that says that progressives have some good ideas. As small business people who are law-abiding citizens we are looking at fighting by canceling our bad insurance and going rogue — AAACK! — and then fighting the IRS when they try to get us for it. We need a revolution. We will fight the blue dog dems, who are more than they admit — by contributing to the other guys if there is o good candidate offered. We are willing now to teach the dems a lesson — if they do not listen to the progressives and compromise toward us then they get the sarah palins — unless you can give us an alternative. We both are willing to fight for this — they are taking out country apart.
AND AS A WOMAN I AM HORRIFIED. I remember the coat hangers of the 60′s.
WE ARE MS AND MR SICK-OF-OBAMA IN PORTLAND.
YES YES YES KILL THE BILL!!!!!!
ROTFL. I don’t know if I want JB running things even though he’s my homeboy.
As owners of a small business, we pay $600/month for bad health insurance, and have no illnesses; on top of that if we ended up in any health crisis we would pay another $9000 EACH before our insurance really covered our bills.
We can’t afford $600/month. However, if we had to pay $600/month and got the kind of coverage my mother on medicare gets for her $200/month we would not be unhappy.
If we were paying medicare that $600/month we would be thrilled at 55 to get decent health care. If we didn’t have the added upcharge in hospitals for the REAL public option we have currently — that would be the people who show up at urgent care and er FOR FREE way past the time when their health problems are easy to correct — then we could pay for the medical attention we need.
Listen to Kucinich, and to Dean before someone got to him last week. We can pay for this.
You guys are killing me. lol! I guess when you’re getting your ass kicked you might as well find some humor in it.
The pharmaceutical industry’s main trade group spent $6.8 million in the third quarter lobbying Congress, the White House and numerous government agencies on health care provisions and other issues, according to a quarterly disclosure report….The Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America spent about 25 percent more than the approximately $5.4 million it paid out for lobbying in the year-ago period. The group’s members include drug giants Pfizer Inc., Merck & Co., Johnson & Johnson and more than two dozen other U.S. and foreign companies.
Other lobbying targets included pricing of drugs sold under the Medicare and Medicaid programs, and proper disposal of unused drugs and related water quality issues, according to a disclosure report filed Oct. 20 with the House clerk’s office. Besides Congress, PhRMA lobbied the Department of Health and Human Services and several of its agencies, including the FDA and the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services, plus the White House, National Economic Council, Office of Management and Budget, Commerce Department, State Department, Patent and Trademark Office, Office of National Drug Control Policy and U.S. Trade Representative.
Among those registered to lobby on the trade group’s behalf in the third quarter were PhRMA President and CEO Billy Tauzin, a former Republican congressman from Louisiana who served until 2005 as chair of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which regulates the pharmaceutical industry…..
Others included: Leah Fisher, former legislative assistant to Rep. Bob Etheridge, D-N.C.; Anne Pritchett, former senior policy analyst in the White House Drug Policy Office and the Executive Office of the President; Gregory Gierer, former legislative assistant to Sen. Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., and former staff assistant to Rep. Rosa De Lauro, D-Conn.; Daniel Durham, who held several government positions, including acting deputy assistant secretary of health policy in the Department of Health and Human Services; Jennifer Swenson, former deputy legislative director for Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan.; and David Boyer, who had served in about a half-dozen positions in the FDA, the White House and elsewhere.
PRESIDENT OBAMA & THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY PLAN TO USHER IN DEPOPULATION PLAN!!
OBAMA/DEMOCRATIC PARTY HEALTHCARE REFORM BILL — EXERCISE IN DEPOPULATION OF AMERICA STARTING WITH NATION’S ELDERLY & POOR PEOPLE!!!!!!
Dec 28, 3:10 AM EST
Seniors worry about Medicare Advantage cuts
By MATT SEDENSKY
Associated Press Writer
MIAMI (AP) — “Insurers constantly caution seniors that their Medicare Advantage perks such as hearing aids, dental payments and even gym memberships will fizzle if Democrats get their way and cut government subsidies for them.…..But tens of billions of Medicare dollars funneled through insurers also pay for extras that never reach beneficiaries: multimillion-dollar salaries, executive retreats in Hawaii, Scotland and Cancun, and massive expenditures on marketing to lure more customers to the privately administered Advantage plans that serve as an alternative to government-provided Medicare.”
“….The government-subsidized benefits that seniors on Advantage plans receive – often at premiums lower than Medicare premiums – are real, and are legitimately in danger in some cases if Democrats succeed in their health care overhaul.….Medicare Advantage subsidies are on the chopping block to pay for the overhaul. Though there are marked differences between House and Senate versions, both bills would lower payments to private Medicare Advantage plans, which on average cost the government 14 percent more than traditional Medicare….”
“…The harshest critics of the Advantage program say patients are exchanging hassle-free coverage for a plan with cheap perks that may ultimately deny them necessary treatment.….Despite the belief that Advantage plans offer broad savings for seniors, a Government Accountability Office report last year found wide differences depending on the plan, including home health service costs that could be up to 84 percent more than traditional Medicare….Private plans have existed under Medicare since the 1970s and many have persisted through previous cuts. Plans shuttered after reductions in funding during the Clinton administration. And changes approved by the Obama administration earlier this year are at least in partly responsible for the 18 percent fewer plans operating in 2010 and higher premiums systemwide….”
I told you in the other thread that NO, I would not be changing my tune if the Republicans got 55 ovtes to pass restrictions on abortions. After all, a bill has to pass BOTH Houses and be signed by the President before it’s law.
And there is nothing in the Constitution that says a supermajority is required to end debate either. I told you the Constitution is pretty clear on the votes that require supermajorities (overriding vetoes and expelling a member).
And I also said you that that was just my opinion, as it doesn’t matter what the legal argument is anyway. It is not “reviewed” by the courts. A simple majority voting in favor of ending the filibuster ends it, period.
And when it comes to saving 45,000 real lives annually, I’ll support any perfectly legal and perfectly constitutional method available to fix that. After all, look at what drastic changes to civil liberties the Bush admin took after an attack that killed 3,000. Lack of health care kills multiple times that number every year. If there was ever an issue that deservedthe spine to be aggressive, health care is it.
The Democrats showed their true priorities when they chose to make this bill require 60 votes. The filibuster will end this way one day I predict, by a party that has the backbone to do it. Gee, wonder which party that’ll be. HINT: It starts with an R.
Right, and the House passed Stupak and Obama is inclined to sign that.
Further, if there is a Republican president and a less Democratic Congress, which is likely, and the filibuster is eliminated, then the scenario I outline is possible.
Not a problem for you, fat old MAN.
Yes, and if a bill has the majority support of the Senate, House, and President, then it deserves to pass. That’s a democracy. Plus, there’s another check on the process as the courts can review all laws to ensure they’re constitutional. So there are plenty of checks on the system without the filibuster.
Ending the filibuster would have the added benefit of making the more democratically represented House more relevant too. Right now the only bills that become law are those requiring 60% of the Senate’s support, effectively making the House irrelevant. Certainly that wasn’t in the minds of the framers, as they would’ve just had a unicameral legislative branch if that was what they wanted.
Kill the filibuster, pass real healthcare reform, and get on with the busines of the country. This country faces too many real severe problems to have one House of our legislative body essentionally dysfunctional. And if that means laws that I don’t like get passed the next time Republicans get a majority, then I’m fine with that. After all, the only way they’ll have a majority in both Houses and the Presidency is if the voters put them there. If they go that far in supporting a Party, it usually means they want them to pass laws that party publicly supports. Too bad the Democrats don’t understand this. Or, perhaps they do, but really don’t support the policies they ran on.
Obama ran on and campaigned on a Public Option. The voters elected him in somewhate of a landslide (at least elctorally it was), and they voted in bigger majority in both houses. When the public is that much in agreement, then the laws passed as a result deserved to be passed, not held hostage to a rule that appears nowhere in the Constitution.
IMO. As always, YMMV.
I was speaking of what you call the nuclear option… it could have been done that way without reconciliation.
Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t know that being a man was a problem as it relates to supporting the filibuster rule or not supporting it. My apologies.
You have a good evening, and hope you have a wonderful and Hapy New Year, as well as a safe one. Good luck in whatever policies you support, as even though I’m a man, I will likely agree with you far more than I disagree with you.
Peace
Old Fat Man
Dogsoldier…. this is the first I have heard of this… and it’s a little confusing. But it sounds HUGE… as in how the fuck did this happen and what are the implications… the last bit about taking personal property after death if you’ve had any Medicaid help is startling…
do you have any links to back up this info please?
I’d like to read more about it so I can understand it better.
thanks.
That was a mindblowing post, but it doesn’t surprise me. Corporatist legislation is the modus operandi; I’d imagine most congresspersons don’t even realize what’s in this bill because they didn’t even write it.
Bravo to dogsoldier, I’d also like to follow it up with some sources.
You don’t understand what just happened with INTERPOL, nor what INTERPOL is, nor what INTERPOL does, nor what the original Ronald Reagan EO provided, nor what the Obama amendment to that EO actually contributed.
The kerfuffle surrounding INTERPOL was nothing but a bunch of faux-outrage over a non-issue.
As a Democrat who clearly isn’t up for the revolution, all I can say is: Quit giving the right ammunition and then show me where you find 60 for Medicare for All. Hey, I’ll even be generous. Find 51.
One thing I guarantee: The level of hostility and hatred I see on this site in the comments and spurred by the toxic language aimed at this administration is unattractive, and will do nothing to advance your agenda with the general public.
People live with enough stress in their lives without having this sort of angry fist-shaking in their face.
PRESIDENT OBAMA & THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY PLAN TO USHER IN DEPOPULATION PLAN!!
OBAMA/DEMOCRATIC PARTY HEALTHCARE REFORM BILL — EXERCISE IN DEPOPULATION OF AMERICA STARTING WITH NATION’S ELDERLY & POOR PEOPLE!!!!!!
and
The kerfuffle surrounding INTERPOL was nothing but a bunch of faux-outrage over a non-issue.
FDL has turned into a mixture of Snopes and Free Republic and K Street spin.
The point is to pressure for more. If there were 60 for Medicare for all, they’d have passed it. But why is it our responsibility to push for what’s already there. That’s not pushing at all. And since when is Medicare for all equivalent to the revolution?
But I do appreciate your generosity.
Do me a favor—Learn how to read, then comprehend what you just saw in the fine print, but not before get your head and eyes into a place where there is adequate sunlight….
To say that many seniors are not very scared of this bill shows your true ignorance of what this hill entails, and, that Obama certainly is letting seniors go by the wayside.
This bill wreaks savage market fundamentalist justice against seniors which could be your or my parents…And people who paid into the same system which Obama now wants to screw with and in doing so take away the benefits the elderly paid into already!
Its true that the swedish Pirate Party gets its support from both left and right, and managed to get 2 seats in the European Parlament. But theyre not doing all that great in recent opinion polls, and i doubt they will make it into the national parlament come elections next year. The left vs right political divide is alive and real in Sweden, and 3 years with a right wing government hacking away at social welfare programs have only accentuated it.
Seeing your struggle from an outside perspective, it appears the big problem for the US progressive left is the need to rely upon the Democrats and work within a structure that is directly hostile to the progressive agenda. I dont know if a third party is an impossible idea or not, it would seem the most logical thing to do. Barring that, some kind electoral and organizing strategy that actively seeks to shift the power balance within the Democratic party, but that to me would seem the most difficult strategy, since nested power structures tend to fight such takeovers until the last drop of blood.
Jane;
I have posted the promised response on my blog, per your request I spoke to the politics and not the merits or lack thereof in the bill.
Respectfully
R. Paine
http://arrghpaine.blogspot.com/2009/12/circle-of-strife.html
Yeah, so lets lower that stress by compelling them to purchase crappy private insurance and in case they can’t afford it and aren’t stressed enough, let’s fine them and not give them health care then either.
What we need are Blue Hats from our democratic allies to come in and bring democracy to the US.
There are no best paths forward, therefore we have to try everything, and that means that there will be many who try to stop us. The Democrats did their best to kill the Green Party in the middle part of this decade and may just yet have been successful. The Greens had been the high water mark in independent electoral progressive political organizing, but the foaming at the mouth Democrat party hack parade went after us stronger and harder then they ever go after the Republicans.
There’s just too much money being made off of politics for anyone to let go, we’ll have to pry it from their cold, dead fingers as it were.
Yeah we noticed the US green partys relative success over here, a lot of us hoped you would break through. Sad to hear that you got hammered, but i understand why. There doesnt seem to be all that much tolerance for diverging opinions even within the Democratic party.
I understand that third parties have it much more complicated in the US because of the way the system is rigged to favor just the two biggest players. But think long term. Here in Europe also third (and fourth and fifth) parties are mostly satelites cirkling two bigger ones. But they hang around waiting for an opportunity, and serves as a kind of corrective for democracy. If one of our major parties tried to pass the kind of health care scam the Democrats are pushing right now the voters would flee in droves, swelling the ranks of the opposition. If the Democrats keep this up, and you play your cards right in opposition, making noises and presenting alternatives, i dont see how you could not benefit.
BTW, maybe it will please you to hear that the swedish greens seem positioned to make a great election next year. God for them, although im more of a socialist myself :)
From a google search I can’t find Obama on record as technically saying “the public option is too liberal”. He did offer the following:
The public option “has become a source of ideological contention between the left and right.” But, he added, “I didn’t campaign on the public option.”
The “post-partisan” explanation essentially embodies the same statement.
“While the right-wing is screaming about an alleged government takeover of health care, Congress is trying to let the insurance companies take over the government. In particular, if the so-called “reform” bill passes, the power of taxation will be at the disposal of the corporations.”
Thank you!
Truer words were never spoken.
NO (-STRONG-)PUBLIC OPTION, NO PERSONAL MANDATE !
It is VERY procedurally possible to get a REAL Reform bill in conference and pass it with 51 votes.