Jeffrey Feldman writes about the divisions underlying the health care debate in this post by Glenn Greenwald (who was writing about this Jake McIntyre post). Ironically, many of the observations he makes about the inside/outside dichotomy in the Democratic party were sketched out in this this prescient piece by Pach on the eve of the 2006 election.
It’s worth revisiting now not only for its insight, but because it points out these fault lines have been visible for a long time. He said at the time that the biggest battle grassroots progressives would have to fight wouldn’t really be with the GOP, but with DC/K Street elitists who operate within both parties:
The wave of Democratic wins expected this Tuesday would not only represent a populist rejection of the ruling coalition of the first two machines, but would also represent a beginning experiment with positive support for a new Grassroots Progressive American politics. However, Grassroots Progressives will still have to struggle against an existing national Democratic power structure DC/K Street Elitists for control of the Democratic Party.
In fact, the battle between the Grassroots Progressives and the DC/K Street Elitists in the Democratic Party has already begun. The DC/K Street Elitist party does not really want to use the Grassroots Progressives as its get out the vote machinery because it knows the Grassroots Progressives don’t really want to keep the gravy train alive for the insiders. Instead, Grassroots Progressives support systemic reforms that promote clean elections, like public campaign financing, which would gut the multibillion dollar American lobbying industry.
Establishment Democrats like the Clintons, Rahm Emanuel and Chuck Schumer don’t want to overturn the established order of the DC/K Street Elites, but want rather to wrest control of the K Street cash machine from their Republican counterparts. This is why they opposed grassroots candidates who opposed the Iraq occupation: the Iraq occupation was bought, paid for and approved of by their constituents in the DC/K Street Elitist party, especially by big oil and the defense contracters. Chuck and Rahm want to do business with (read: profit from) the DC/K Street Elitist party, not overturn it.
Since many of the candidates Chuck, Rahm and the Clintons opposed will win Tuesday, they are already using the establishment media machine to claim these victories as their own “Democratic” victories. In other words, they’re already preemptively lying (see the video above again for an illustration). The Democratic Party now is really two parties engaged in a pitched political war for control. The two sides will remain in opposition within the Democratic Party not only after Tuesday, but throughout and beyond the Democratic primaries leading up to 2008.
Grassroots Progressives will benefit from many protest votes supporting their candidates this election cycle, but their claim to a popular mandate will not yet be secure unless their wins are huge. The country is willing to experiment with this new political movement, but so far this may just represent a courtship.
What we couldn’t foresee then was the impact that libertarian Republicans would have on their own party. As Ron Paul said recently, Obama has neutralized the anti-war left and he thinks if there is an end to the war it will come from the right. And so we’re seeing young anti-war GOP libertarian candidates like Adam Kokesh, who represent a break with the grassroots theocrats on the right.
We’re also starting to see the rise of the left-right civil liberties coalition of the Swedish Pirate Party, which is sweeping up young people all over Europe and now has 2 seats in the EU. How successful this alliance will be remains to be seen, but as the old fault lines are breaking down it creates intense tribal hostility in some quarters. Perhaps those of us who have worked with civil libertarians of the GOP for years (and watched them pilloried by their own party for doing so) are going to be more comfortable making those “strange bedfellows” alliances, but the inadequacies of the status-quo are quickly opening up many others to them too.
New opportunities, new dialectics, new conversations. I’m probably never going to agree with very much that’s written on Red State, but it’s not enough to say something was on Red State by way of dismissing its validity. Because I look at this post by Dan Perrin and I think it’s really smart and aside from an observation that DeMint’s move cold be easily overcome by Reid, I think it’s spot on.
As Pach said of the DC/K Street elites of 2006 who controlled the GOP at the time:
[I]t also does business with “third way” Democrats like the Clintons and their establishment DC allies operating under the label of the Democratic Party. Rahm Emanuel belongs to this machine, as do Chuck Schumer, Harry Reid, Barack Obama, Heath Shuler and most of the rest of the DC Democrats, especially, but not exclusively, in the Senate.This party brought you Viet Nam and Iraq, because both were good for business and provided lots of room for war profiteering.
We couldn’t have that conversation during the primary battles — there was no context for it within the love/hate him/her prism that politics was exclusively viewed through at the time (and which so many simply cannot extricate themselves from).
It’s time we have it now.



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First, I like your tactics and I’ll be writing more about Booman’s Anti Corporatist screed later tonight but I wanted to mention several points.
1. We need to take a look at third parties. You are not going to put the fear of god into Rahm by placing “Better Democrats” directly under his control. We need some wildcards and guys who will fight like Hell for our issues. I would take a look at Nader in Connecticut for the senate.
2. It’s false to say that Third Party campaigns are futile. It would be truer to say that poorly funded, poorly organized, running to to make some symbolic point third party campaigns are futile. Money is what makes a campaign viable. I have a plan if anyone is interested. Nader 2000 isn’t the rule. Bloomberg/Lamont should be the standard and you don’t even need that much money. You need one Grayson moneybomb to create a viable House race. You need four Grayson moneybombs to make a senate run.
3. I’ll repeat this: go for 5 senate seats and 25 house seats. This would give you controlling blocks in both houses if those blocks actually stood for something and weren’t looking to Republican Party B.
That’s all for now and keep up the good work.
Some of the nicest, most decent people I’ve known were conservatives. And some of the biggest pricks are Democrats. Rahm, anyone?
Most conservative philosophy is abhorrent to me, but maybe in large part, the left/right divide is a conceit, a distraction which serves to hide the hand of the corporatocracy. People must be kept apart, for only when they are united can they threaten the PTB. People are kept apart through disinformation, media manipulation, behavioral psychology, and appeals to our basest natures. A lot of us on the left are aware of these techniques. I used to assume they were simply tools of the right, but maybe there are other forces behind the charade.
Like Lucy eternally taking the football away from Charlie Brown, the Democratic Party punked the left yet again.
We’re getting sick of it. In rapidly growing numbers.
What’s there to fear about engaging those on the right who view Wall St the same we do? It’a not like we’re going to catch conservatism from them – our beliefs are internally consistent and cognitively consonant. If anything, it’s the conservatives who will catch creeping progressivism from us, when they realize we don’t want to force them to have abortions after having interracial gay sex with them after forcing them to burn the flag and drink clean water and breath clean air.
One more argument for the Third Party option: The Democrat brand could be ruined for a generation. That’s what mandates without affordable quality care will mean. It might be nice to have a third party to fall back on. You could start a new one. How about “The Progressive Party”. Our slogan could be: “And we really mean it”. There is an American version of the Pirate Party by the way…Again: this would put real fear in the Rahm’s of the world. People who aren’t in the party and put real pressure and real demands from the left.
That’s one of the clues to why not one Repug is supporting the bill. Even though the bill is a Republican wetdream, they know it will crush the middle and working classes, and that there’ll be hell to pay in the form of a populist backlash.Their hands will be clean. The Republicans will reap the benefit of the political backlash. It’s perfect for them. So, Wall St will just push its chips back to the Republicans, and we’ll wind up bombing Yemen and Pakistan, escalating in Afghanistan, giving the store to Wall St, doing nothing about climate change, letting Cheney and Rove skate on torture, Plame, and wiretapping…oh, wait…
Thank you Jane for the expression of sanity in the midst of those who would seek to ‘divide and conquer’.
Why do you feel a need for a (third) formal national Party, Steelydan3, with all of the baggage such Parties entail, knowing how the two existing Parties have abused their power and severely damaged our ability to democratically self-govern at the federal level?
If forming such a national third Party is simply a means to obtaining federal ballot access – which is an admittedly huge obstacle and hurdle to changing the current Two Party status quo – for honest candidates, without relying on Democratic or Republican Primaries, I think there are easier approaches (such as openly co-opting an existing Party apparatus as Step One to a challenge of its corrupt leadership, as I suggested here).
Forming shifting coalitions based on genuinely-shared interests seems the most populist and democratic approach to legislating at the federal level. But a prerequisite to such temporary coalitions is a weakening of the top-down control of Congress that the Parties (mentioned nowhere in the Constitution, of course) now fiercely maintain (Party leaders in Congress couldn’t care less about controlling the increasingly just-for-show national Party infrastructure outside Washington), with the help of corporate-sourced-funding bribes and threats.
Advocating simply for yet another, third Party whose members in Congress will abandon independent thinking in order to obey top-down commands from a handful of unaccountable politicians wielding extremely-concentrated power (increasingly deployed at the beck and call of the Executive Branch) is a mistake, as far as I can see.
Your Suggestion #3 in Comment 1 seems like the better approach to me, provided a definite, limited objective (like publicly-financed campaigns, or an open/reformed Congress) was shared by those select candidates.
Agreed. What’s worse is I would have to root for the republicans and hope that their legal challenge to the mandate succeeds. Incredible. Just incredible. I’m trying to think if I ever have rooted for a republican legal effort…Very depressing.
Well, first, I’m open minded toward an existing party or building anew. I think it might be easier just to start from scratch. I think you need a platform though. There’s going to be a lot of jobless and depressed young people out there. Why not campaign on college debt forgiveness, funded with a five percent cut in defense spending? And if elected, really fight for those things. You know why I want Nader in the senate? Because as soon as a left wing troublemaker uses the rules to stop something they think is important, like any and every defense appropriation, then you’ll probably see majority rule back in fashion in the senate…
One more thing: I never said this would be easy! Just that it would be achievable. One more response to the who can you trust argument: Look for longtime public servants not the usual hacks and money men. I would recruit labor organizers to run…
I wonder if Hitler would have banded with the Jews to take down a couple of Nazis?
Sorry to be OT but I’ve been away for awhile and I’m just checking in to see who Obama has stabbed in the back while I was away.
Repeating one more time and a little bit louder, like the drunk at the party. If the antiwar right and the antiwar left don’t work together, there is NO antiwar movement. Scott Horton (the other one) at antiwar.com, a committed libertarian, understands that and has more antiwar, pro-civil libertarians from the left on his program than from the right.
So the ACLU, PFAW, and the Campaign for America’s Future are Nazis? Because they’ve been working with Grover Norquist for years. And is President Obama a Nazi because he appoints Republicans to top posts?
Nader for senate? Are you high?
Nader is all about Nader. One would think everyone would have figured that out by now.
The point being that D vs. R misses the point entirely. All for reasonable (i.e. Scott Horton) moving across ideological barriers, as well as unreasonable ones (Hamsher/Norquist). If you don’t try it, you have no idea what will work. I was trained in science and have a great deal of respect for failed experiments. They often reveal more than the successful ones.
About O, not so sure. *g*
Huh?
And the current crop of Senators aren’t narcissists?
Wow. You guys act all tough by aligning yourselves with the right wing fringe, but do a Hitler Analogy, and you can’t take it! LOL *shaking head*
You can pick who is who to make yourself feel better but it’s now known Jane (and all of you!) is aligning herself with her polar opposites to take down one/two of her own. Okay? This is reality.
Remember Bob Barr? Scumbag par excellance until he was one of the few Rs to challenge W. Didn’t amount to a shithill of beans, but at least he gave it a tiny try. You never know where your allies will be on a particular issue. I have some personal experiences to that effect.
Exactly. Hence my post. :-)
I find it odd that the very people who don’t object when Obama appoints conservatives to run key agencies, or when outfits like the ACLU work with Bob Barr, suddenly get the vapors when Jane works with the same guy the ACLU, PFAW and CAF have been working with for years now.
Yeah, Barr was a bit of a thorn in the side of Bush. The corporate media, however, played him off as a curiosity. They love their status quo and why wouldn’t they. The status quo has been berry berry good to them.
Your comment:
You’ve lost your debate, and probably your audience, by starting off comparing people to Hitler, Stalin, Satan, etc. How about something substantive? This is tiresome.
eCAHN’s rule #2: The person who mentions the Nazis first loses the arguement. Not infallible, but works a lot of the time.
Considering the inevitable inherent corruption of biggness including the now irrational “to big to fail” philosophy, the crack in the K St/DC egg might be revisiting the work of E.F. SChumacher who wrote “Small is Beautiful” in 1973. see http://www.smallisbeautiful.org/about/overview.html
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
Politics is a very dirty sport and those who would suffer from the vapors insist on going to a knife fight armed with tweezers.
Jane I wasn’t sure if you were making the right moves aligning with the “wingnuts”, you know that purity thing.
But the more I think about it the more I agree with your position.
If we are in agreement with the other side on some issues ,why not work with them ? We don’t have to share their ideology.
I am curious about something. Why is every criticism of Obama treated like the worst thing on earth by some people(BooMan for one)?
I like it!
I am beginning to believe we should use a performance basis that evaluates outcomes, not procedures performed.
No, I’m not talking about healthcare.
I’m talking about the Senate. If a senator is really tuned to a good platform and has the peoples’ interests on his front burner, that’s nice. But what has he delivered? After a while, the no vote in failed opposition doesn’t do it, the fiery oratory in favor of what’s good for the country what upholds the Constitution what the represents the constituents is wonderful, and should get our applause after the speech ends. But a vote should be dependent on what they actually succeeded in doing with all of that. The country lives with the consequences, not the stands. Performance based on outcomes says the great guy with his head screwed on right, who never filibusters, never places a hold, never doggedly pushes for the defeat of a bad bill or the passage of a good one is a failure, and isn’t helping government serve the governed.
Jane, I’ve really enjoyed the sense of renewed momentum and purpose that has come from your reaching out to the libertarian-right.
As an aside, per the linked Ron Paul interview, I’ve always wondered why nobody every ask’s Congressman Paul to reconcile his fierce free-market advocacy with his advocacy for immigration controls. You can’t be both, without engaging in cognitive dissonance; not ironically the same reason why “free-trade” has been anything but.
Of course, when you get no support, it is easy to play you. Again, my general point is that we must try to work with people who are normally on the other side on a case by case basis. Our side, while what the polls show that the voters want, is a great threat to the PTB. If we don’t look for allies wherever we can find them, we’ll lose.
And if the strange bedfellows don’t work, there is always Plan B, or C, or whatever. It’s not like marriage is supposed to be: a lifelong committment.
Yup. It’s a tacit admission that your argument is so weak, you have to rely on the emotional impact of dragging Nazis or Hitler into it to have any hope of “winning”.
“Every bit as bad as the last administration, maybe even worse.” – Ron Paul
“It is clear that Obama is, fundamentally, Bush’s 3rd term.” – Ian Welsh
Yup.
Just an empirical observation.
Doesn’t matter whether O is better or worse than W. Guess I should create eCAHN’s correlary to eCAHN’s rule No. 2, i.e., it doesn’t matter whether O is better or worse or the same as W, he’s not good for the country, and the person who misses that point in favor of a bogus comparison loses.
Wow, a Hitler reference occurring by the ninth comment. Even Godwin would be impressed.
Divergent opinions regarding methodologies notwithstanding, I think we still share common goals, Kay.
I concur and support Jane’s efforts. Look at the history of any revolution and one see’s alliances between different groups that ideologically made no sense but from a strategic and tactical sense were fortuitous.
Where is Pach? I’ve missed him for a long time.
“the enemy, of my enemy, is my friend”
Blue Dog or New Democrat – they’re the same thing – Republican Lite and getting closer to Republican all the time.
That said, Reagan spent most of our money. His tax cuts for the wealthy were killers on the economy. Dubya spent the rest. His tax cuts for the wealthy were even worse.
Our dollar is a joke. Dubya and Reagan insured that. Obama’s got to keep the money printing presses running. That said, he could funnel more of it to us and less to all the rotten motherf*ckers who screwed the pooch.
I agree 100%! What can we do — besides give money? (I already give as much as I can.)
Side note: Chuck Schumer. Why does he get in every press thing he can? Our family has made a parlor game out of it. Even my kids (in their 20s) play, although they aren’t really into politics. Every time there is a press conference, and Chuck is within a mile of it, there he is, desperately trying to get on camera. Hasn’t he been in DC long enough for this to have worn out its appeal by now? What a Jr. Higher!
A couple points -
1] THIRD PARTY – The only way a third party can effect a change other than gauranteeing election by the opposition [ read "republicans"] is by drawing from both sides. Other than that ideological purity will be served by going down in glorious flames. Here in Minnesota jesse Ventura did it in 98 and that’s how he did it. Turned out to be a lousy governor, yep, but it was a brilliant campaign.
2] WHAT’S WRONG WITH PURITY? Just look at what the Repubs are doing to themselves on this score. They are collapsing the 29% who still thought W was a heckuva guy to something around 11% who can be approved by Glenn Beck. You want that to be the model? Come on guys, we won the election last year. Is it absolutely necessary to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?
“Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.”
Footnoting that revolutions that fail owing to strange ideological combinations are not rare either. No guaranties, just efforts.
This is absolutely right. As an example, I remember Pat Buchanan being loud and out-front in his opposition to the Iraq War, far more so than many “antiwar” people. How do you work with Buchanan on an issue of common intrest without also promoting the rest of his agenda to some degree? I think this conflict is at the root of a lot of the divisions between citizens with common concerns.
‘evenin’, all.
Here’s a good one…
My, my. Here we go again, democrats eating their young. Guys, he hasn’t even been in office a year!!!! Good God.
Many Senators suffer from terminal narcissism.
Care to share rule #1? :-)
Efforts coming from the left are easy to dismiss , but an effort by the left /right would be harder to ignore and could even attract support from the center as well
I was with you until Bloomberg.
We need to ween the Dems off of the idea that Independent is a non starter. Get several very vocal Senators (not third way bipartisans like Bloomberg!) to run on an Independent ticket, and the whole atmosphere in the Senate will change dramatically!
If you’re not pissed off (by what Obama has and hasn’t done thus far) you’re not paying sufficient attention.
Worked great for Joe Lieberman.
Well, it did!
Prior thread. IIRC, it’s something like hypocrisy is not unique to religion & democracy, it’s just heavily concentrated there.
Would that it were so. We simply didn’t lose as badly as we might have, and even that may be stretching it. The Democrats won. I am not at all convinced the people did.
Left or right is irrelevant. Is the idea right? If so, go for support where you can find it. You might be surprised. Or not. But worth the effort.
“Third party” is a misnomer, there are already dozens, if not hundreds of alternative parties. Plus hundreds, maybe thousands of unaffiliated independent candidates holding state and local office, sometimes higher.
The Green Party is one of the more successful examples and in national elections they typically average (guessing) about three percent of the vote.
These alternative parties don’t operate on the fringe by choice, they do so because it’s damned hard to compete with the Dems and Republicans, who have gamed the system to ward off outside challenges.
Additionally, competing at the national level requires a large infrastructure which cannot be created overnight and the movement typically wanes before it it is anywhere near complete.
I wish anyone attempting to launch a new party success but I am inclined to consider most discussion of the topic a waste of energy.
“the Iraq occupation was bought, paid for and approved of by their constituents in the DC/K Street Elitist party, especially by big oil and the defense contracters.”
There is no major lobby independent of the Financial Industry.
There are a handful of untouchable lobbies which always win, and they all seem to be subdivisions of the Wall St banks and bankers who own the most shares, control the most board seats, and plan the long-term business and lobbying strategies.
These untouchable subdivisions of Wall St include:
Defense, Pharma, Insurance, Energy, Media, Telecoms, Big Agriculture, Mortgage, Chamber of Commerce, and increasingly, dare I say it… AIPAC. There’s probably a couple/few industries I’m missing, obviously.
But these interconnected, interdependent lobbies that make up our establishment NEVER lose, and the concentration of power and wealth has been extraordinary since the Reagan years. In the aftermath of TARP, all the more so.
Smaller companies are going under or being gobbled up by the oligarchs who were given several trillion dollars of interest free loans to buy up even more of the economy.
The old days are seemingly gone, and our oligarchs are happy to have Americans sinking into more and more dept (financial slavery), while those who still have jobs work even harder, for less money, creating higher profits out of fear of being replaced.
Our oligarchs look at our good old days as the bad old days. The only issue will be keeping us in line.
Many of our robber barons financed the rise of Hitler in the 30′s. At the same time, they plotted a coup against FDR, with the hope that a charismatic general would lead 500,000 disgruntled troops in a military coup:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml
Slow and steady turned out to be a better strategy.
Works for Bernie Sanders, too.
Shed the Democrat brand by running like Bernie Sanders and in the face of ‘New Democrats’ who might as well belong to a third party. This is about marketing and branding and not about doing a frontal attack on an ensconced two party system.
If there’s a place to respect Buchanan, it’s this view.
Or so I thought. I continued reading his views on Iraq, and it became apparent that he was quite bothered by the US doing Israel’s bidding (as HE perceived America’s objectives), as much if not more than any problem he had with a policy of making war on Iraq. So while I admire his objective overall, I am disgusted with how he came to it.
Also, the anti-war Right was the tiniest of minorities, until a Democrat took over. Lyndon LaRouche has a bigger following.
You mean like sellout Sanders? Doesn’t work for me.
Because some people think he’s the Messiah, notwithstanding Obama agreeing with them.
The partisan divide is ruining this country .
We saw the effects of that in the healthcare bill, we could not attract the vote of a single Republican, and as a result we ended up with a truly horrible bill.
Jane you’re taking the first steps needed to close this divide , and IMO you should be applauded for your efforts.
The right thing to do isn’t always the easiest .
Yes, Bernie sold out.. He, Feingold, Harkin, any one of them could have been the holdout vote. They’ll regret their going with the sheep herd.
Blue Dogs
Yellow Dogs
New Democrats
then there are caucuses: Progressive, BCC, etc.
These might as well be looked upon as otherwise separate parties running on self styled platforms, under the umbrella of the Democratic Party.
If, however you run Independents as Independents, you are going to change the whole Senate dynamic with just a few.
That is 25 percent of his term. Should we wait for 50, 75, or 100 percent before conducting a performance evaluation?
Ah, so that’s how “the system” works!!
A tug of war between Tom Delay and Tim Geithner for the heart and soul of K Street. Dividing up the pie more “democratically”, as it were.
Who ever woulda thunk it…
Regarding a broadening alliance between progressives and the reactionaries who will work with them to bring Rahm Emanuel to his knees?
Sure. Nothing should be off the table given the economic power of the folks able to fund the K Street Project. And the political power of the folks willing to take the cash.
But I say that goal should be a far distant third to 1] organizing with other progressives to drive the DLC Wall Street hacks out of the Party and 2] organizing with other progressives to stir up a grassroots moverment to challenge all Wall Street hacks inside the beltway.
Better a half a million progressives marching on the Capitol Building in Washington than all the left/right alliances in the world.
Why do you think they’ll regret it. My first approximation is that they won’t.
Indeed, like sellout Bernie, because if Bernie had Nader, and another two to support him, he surely would have voted against. Instead he caved, I hate him.
As a reminder as to how long our governance has been in the hands of corporatists, Meteor Blades (on the front page of Daily Kos, today) has an article about a long forgotten name -Ben Hasenfus. From the Iran Contra scandal times.
I salute Jane for her stand against these intrenched interests, in both parties and with what ever it takes. We have got to take our country back.
To make a point here:
There are many here that do not know our nation’s real history, our corporate media has failed us badly. And social propaganda has labeled those who knew and whistelblew were labeled as tinfoil hat wearers to besmerch the messages Americans needed to hear.
There is nothing so strong as an informed populous. And now that we can communicate with the internet, we need to educate, organize and make the politicians run to the front of our mob.(politicians were never ment to be leaders, they just follow at the front of the crowd.)
What’s to hate. Just another boring pol. Who represents VT but speaks like Brooklyn. Could be a cartoon character.
Socks @ 70
” We have got to take our country back.”
They are trying to do just that in Iran, as we fence. Worth watching and learning…
And you know they’re leading the behind-the-scenes call for Israel to attack Iran, with Short Ride out in front calling for pre-emptive strikes on Yemen as the bright shiny object.
He certainly hasn’t lived up to my expectations.
Seems to me to be the typical politician ,doing everything he can do to ensure future campaign donations from big money so that he can remain in power
Classic Pach…
It’s Bill Clinton’s Fault
By: Pachacutec Wednesday June 28, 2006 10:50 am
What was said?
Why Do Democrats Hate Religion?
Make up your own mind here…
“What’s to hate.”
I had Obama read like nobody’s business. He’s nothing to me, I vested no hopes, no expectations, no vote. Bernie, – I believed in Bernie.
And just who are these one or two who are Jane’s own? I’ve watched you come on several threads the last few days, and make some nasty remark or call Jane names. How would you like it if you were given a disparaging nickname?
It’s time to get over yourself.
My condolences.
Thanks:-(
I have a split view on this statement by Glen Greenwald:
in talking about Kilgore’s point that
In my view the difference between Greenwald’s and Kilgore’s perspectives seems to be due to their seeing two different parts of the Republican Party, namely the economic and social conservatives. The “left-right convergence” that I see is when social conservatives realize that their economic interests are being sold out by Obama, and take common cause with economic liberals.
The people “to the right” have to be divided into two distinct camps. One camp is truly economically right, and there Kilgore is correct. The other one is socially right but possibly economically confused, and there Greenwald is correct.
I think Jane has it all wrong when she reaches out to fellow travelers of the Libertarian Party. That is not where the differences are superficial. On the contrary, differences with the Libertarian Party on health care reform are vast and deep. Rather it’s with social conservatives who may simply be confused on economic issues, and misled by Glenn Beck and company, that we can really find common cause. The Libertarian Party (which in my opinion does not promote liberty in any real sense, but I digress) will not help us one iota.
Not necessaarily, But they can be useful allies.
(Teresa Nielsen Hayden)
Even I am not cynical enough. However, on Sanders got it right.
Problem is that in many places the Greens aren’t organized enough to go anywhere – but that means it’s also easier to take them over from inside, if you have an organization ready to move in.
Nader sold out long ago.
The big problem that I see is the Repubs are a party of howling, fascistic theocrats. I’d be very frightened to have them in control of Congress. When the greater of 2 evils is really, truly evil, then the lesser of 2 evils becomes not just thinkable but frankly a relief.
Funny how the same folks attacking Jane for being like the ACLU and CAF and working with a conservative are silent as the tomb when Obama, taking a page from Clinton’s Sister Souljah stunt, runs against his own base.
The categories you describe are artificial. In surveys, the correct A is usually “all of the above.” So arbitrary slicing & dicing limits your political options.
Yes, but given the year it’s been it seems like, well, a lot lot longer. You know, on Main Street, for example.
But please do…as the months drag on…apprise us of when it all starts to turn around. Maybe on finance reform? The debate over global warming? EFCA? the war in Afghanistan?
No one knows for sure what goes on inside Obama’s superbly calculating mind. That’s true. But don’t expect the folks on Wall Street to be lining up any time soon to jump out of windows.
That’s my own prediction about the future.
Nader sold out? To whom? When? Link?
I think Nader is an egotist of the nth degree. But that doesn’t address whether he’s done more harm than good or the reverse.
Using percentages in such a manner is dishonest. I would think giving a new president at least two years would be reasonable. I mean, the human race has only inhabited the earth for .0000001% of the earth’s life, so who cares?
yep
Concerned about a corrupted Dem Party which revealed itself openly in the formulation and passage of this disastrous HCR bill by Congress and ObamaRahma, a few months ago (as soon as I retired at 65) I began thinking about ways to bring forth if not a third party at least a non-party public interest movement which I dubbed (for the sake of calling it something) “Solidarity for Democracy.” More an influence, framer and shaper of policy than a party, I saw Solidarity as a grassroots incubation process for campaign finance reform and media reform, focusing on these two “meta” processes as the foundation of any attempt to reform government/governance as a whole before we can get to reasonable legislation of policy like healthcare (single player), environment, education, energy, etc., that is at least somewhat free of the “D.C./K Street elitists” and corporate corruption (See SolidarityForDemocracy.blogspot.com for my notes thus far). I’m aware of the pitfalls of a Nader-style third-party presidential bid (although like the idea of his running for Senate) and appreciate the comments upthread that seem to be looking toward a different approach. Solidarity might be one, at least in terms of the overall framing as not so much a party as a movement and not focused on policy so much as these two meta issues of de-corruption of Congress, the White House and state governments as well as media reform since the media are using tons of cash gained from selling campaign ads to candidates, money gained by candidates received from corporations and K Street, keeping a vicious cycle going in which that cash is used to denigrate the political class and hold up all politicians, including some beneficial ones, as entertainment fodder for ratings while they keep the general public ignorant on issues like single-payer and how it works, issues of Copenhagen, etc., you know the drill. If these issues are not commercial and thus are not getting to the public, we need to change that value at its core. It’s a bit like “getting religion” again, on that level, since that’s where average people viscerally relate to something lost in our democracy. Part of what’s lost is the feeling we have a say. We don’t. K Street has the say and when we saw Baucus standing behind Obama as the Senate bill was announced, there was a visceral sense of nausea among most of my political friends and fairly average citizens around here. They know Baucus is a K Street guy. It’s not about being a Republican or a Democrat but are we living in a democracy anymore?
Anyway, when I opened up this diary by Jane and saw her quotation of that brilliant 2006 column by Pach, it was “Whamo!” – the whole thing came into focus. I’m naïve compared to other bloggers who check in regularly to FDL but if anything in my notes on “Solidarity for Democracy” is of any value, please build on it. I plan to work on it as a community project through meet ups and group meetings to create a kind of incubational groundwork receptive to candidates that Jane and FDL and others of the better blogs, unions and groups manage to round up and put forth as alternatives. If candidates are recommended by Solidarity they will be steeped in the values of clean elections and media reform and, corny as it sounds, receive a seal “Guaranteed for Good Government-keeping” — they could be Dems or Republicans, no matter so long as they adhere to these two core principles of clean elections and clean media. I think we have to work both ends — the candidate and the voting base — outside the national Dem Party or D.C. political system.
How to accomplish this I don’t know but my brief experience so far this year moving this idea around amongst friends here in my community in northeast Pennsylvania (fairly conservative, by the way, yet conservatives seem to be instantly aware of the problem whereas the Obama phenomenon has muddied the waters among Democrats who voted for him who seem unable to admit to themselves that he could be corrupt) tells me there will be fairly immediate interest in the two linked meta-ideas of campaign finance and media reform inasmuch as these affect the electoral process so profoundly and have to be taken care of first, as a priority. People sit up and take notice right away and recognize the current HCR bill as being prime evidence of the problem of the corruption of these two entities, campaign finance and media. We are just about to have the Supreme Court hand down a ruling in Citizens United vs FEC that might allow corporations to directly finance elections (they virtually do already but this case may blow it wide open), so we will have our work cut out cracking the nut of corporate personhood and all that jazz. Meanwhile “Solidarity for Democracy” is something to keep me out of trouble and certainly at the edge of my chair when I open up diaries like this. Thanks, Jane, for a great shot today, and to all the commenters upthread.
show me linky.
Sorry, you didn’t publish your guidelines before the election so they aren’t applicable to this president. Remind us again next time.
anyone deeply passionate about something can hardly not be an egotist of sorts, so let’s kill this non argument, hokay?!
Did anybody see Capitalism: A Love Story?
This from the leaked Citigroup memo from 2005, as featured in the film:
At the heart of plutonomy, is income inequality. Societies that are willing to
tolerate/endorse income inequality, are willing to tolerate/endorse plutonomy.
Earlier, we postulated a number of key tenets for the creation of plutonomy. As a
reminder, these were: 1) an ongoing technology/biotechnology revolution, 2) capitalistfriendly governments and tax regimes, 3) globalization that re-arranges global supply chains with mobile well-capitalized elites and immigrants, 4) greater financial complexity and innovation, 5) the rule of law, and 6) patent protection.
We make the assumption that the technology revolution, and financial innovation, are likely to continue. So an examination of what might disrupt Plutonomy – or worse, reverse it – falls to societal analysis: will electorates continue to endorse it, or will they end it, and why.
Organized societies have two ways of expropriating wealth – through the revocation of property rights or through the tax system.
A third threat comes from the potential social backlash. To use Rawls-ian analysis, the invisible hand stops working. Perhaps one reason that societies allow plutonomy, is because enough of the electorate believe they have a chance of becoming a Plutoparticipant. Why kill it off, if you can join it? In a sense this is the embodiment of the “American dream”.[/quote
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6674234/Citigroup-Oct-16-2005-Plutonomy-Report-Part-1
Here are the folks who fund Bernie Sanders:
Retired $535,559
Democratic/Liberal $381,342
Industrial Unions $369,182
Public Sector Unions $274,415
Building Trade Unions $259,967
Transportation Unions $224,750
Lawyers/Law Firms $206,249
Misc Unions $136,682
Education $127,187
Health Professionals $115,824
Human Rights $76,350
Sure, I was disappointed when he backed down on the Senate floor. But over the broad swath of social and economic issues I support as a progressive, he is definitely not the problem in Congress. In a world that includes reality we need many, many more like him.
Link = SolidarityForDemocracy.blogspot.com
To Steelydan3:
You wrote:
It already exists or at least something called the Progressive Party of America does but its severely moribund. Their platform is here:
http://www.progressivepartyofamerica.org/party-platform
Sadly it doesn’t seem very active. Since May, 2008 the profile on its blog has only been viewed 24 times. Checked the Domain registration of progressivepartyofamerica.org and saw this:
Domain Name: PROGRESSIVEPARTYOFAMERICA.ORG
Created on: 30-Apr-08
Expires on: 30-Apr-10
Last Updated on: 15-Apr-09
It would be beyond fantastic to put up 25 candidates for the House and 5 for the Senate next time but since I don’t know of a couple of spare million$ laying around to get things organized it will be a miracle if much happens.
Kay then…
Kay now…
Kay always…
Somebody needs a spanking!
Then we can all get back to discussing the issues at hand. mm’Kay?
Moderator, why did you take out my paragraphs?
Two years? I strongly disagree. Think back to Dubya. Within his first 6 months in office, he was rolling back environmental protections that had been in place 30 years. And we had the Patriot Act in what, less than 15 months?
I owe rahmbama nothing, neither money, support nor vote. If enough take the same attitude then rahmbamas allegiance to corporatism and their whores (nelson, lincoln, lieberman) will gain them nothing except a failed one-term legacy. rahmbama, right now you are failing; you have to earn my vote.
as moderator i did nothing. that’s the way it showed up
If you look at the population, social conservatism does not correlate much with wealth. If it does correlate, the correlation is negative, i.e. rich people are more socially liberal. However, rich people are certainly more economically conservative.
In general, poor people are more economically liberal, but many poor people are also socially conservative.
So this is not “arbitrary slicing and dicing.”
This is a crucial distinction.
See my comment at 102.
Good point.
Here everything is always in a particular historical [and political] context. Suppose, for example, in backing the Libertarians on an issue unrelated to health care we succeeded in allowing the Libertarians to win the White House and control of Congress.
That would be an out and out fiasco for Main Street. Why? Because these guys are principled enough to actually attempt dismantling everything and anything the government does by way of extending our social satety net. These guys want medicare and medicaid abolished. These guys want the government out of health care altogether.
Would anyone here be supporting Jane and Grover if a victory for them meant Libertrian control in Washington? I sincerely hope not.
On the topic of the post, if a successful left/right alliance were to achieve a refocus of policy to a domestic, citizen-centered vs. corporation-centered style of governance, it’s going to beg a discussion of how to manage a crumbling empire: how to create a soft landing versus a catastrophic crash. It’s going to be one or the other, IMVHO.
A libertarian in charge of the DEA or BATF might not be a bad idea.
I have three difficulties with much of this discussion on the split between Obama and the Progressives on this site. Let me add that this is the first time I am actaully sharing my thoughts on any site. My first difficulty is that so many on this site are ready to cast a negative judgement on a final HC bill that is yet to be reconciled between the House and the Senate. It seems to me that we are better off fighting to get the best bill we can and then make a judgement on whether on balance it is better or worse than where we are right now. Too many seem to have surrendered to the idea that it is impossible to produce something worthwhile from the the effort to reconcile the house bill with the senate bill. I have not surrendered to this thought. I believe we ought to fight for a better bill to the very last minute and render final judgement once we have a final bill. I believe in fact that teh scorching criticsms that senate bill has received from Progressive will compel Obama to move left o the final bill – even if it does not include a public option.
My second difficulty is that too many seem to think the Progressives need to declare war on the Obama administration because Obama has not fought for the public option. After eight years of Bush I simply can’t see how we would be better off with a republican controlled government. It seems to me that Progressives are still much better off forming a strategic alliance with the Obama administration – not because the Progressives agree with Obama in every respect but because Progressives do have a greater capacity to persuade the Obama administration to implement Progressive ideals – something which will never happen if the Republicans are in charge. So by all means on matters where there is disagreement, Progressives ought to continue to push hard against Obama’s policies. We will ultimately win some of these fights. But I do not see how we can wish for, sometimes implicitly, othertimes more explicitly, the collapse of the Obama Presidency. Under this two party system that we live in, it would surely also be the collapse of the Progressive momentum in transforming the American political culture. The theocrats and the neocons will once again be in charge. I think we got to wrok agaisnt that.
But here’s my biggest difficulty: if Jane and others do think that there are times when we could work with the enemy – Grover Norquist -, surely you know that we would be able to work with Obama far more often on far more issues than we could ever work with a Norquist? It seems to me that the logic that says we could work with a sworn enemy carries much more power if directed at Obama – a sometimes comrade in arms? Forthe aim of Norquist is without doubt to destroy Obama and the Progressive movement. The aim of Obama is to deploy power leftward – but in a frustratingly slow motion, incrementalist fashion.
It seems to me that we have a much better chance of pushing Obama leftward than we could ever have of forming a mutally benefical relationship with the far right.
That’s Godwin’s Law. Been around since early in the usenet days.
welcome to firedoglake — looking forward to reading more of what you have to say
Politics is the art of the possible- about compromise and being pragmatic.
Rejecting anyone who isn’t “pure” in their progressivism is just miming Erick Erickson at RedState, who casts out New Gingrich as a apostate conservative.
Yes, there are limits to compromising; and you can feel free to criticize Obama for his backsliding- but wildly conflating anyone who didn’t vote the way you want as a conservative is just stupid.
Getting a truly progressive result means working with who you must, compromising where you can, and holding your ground where you think you can win.
My comment disappeared at 92, so I’m reposting it here:
Concerned about a corrupted Dem Party which revealed itself openly in the formulation and passage of this disastrous HCR bill by Congress and ObamaRahma, a few months ago (as soon as I retired at 65) I began thinking about ways to bring forth if not a third party at least a non-party public interest movement which I dubbed (for the sake of calling it something) “Solidarity for Democracy.” More an influence, framer and shaper of policy than a party, I saw Solidarity as a grassroots incubation process for campaign finance reform and media reform, focusing on these two “meta” processes as the foundation of any attempt to reform government/governance as a whole before we can get to reasonable legislation of policy like healthcare (single player), environment, education, energy, etc., that is at least somewhat free of the “D.C./K Street elitists” and corporate corruption (See SolidarityForDemocracy.blogspot.com for my notes thus far).
I’m aware of the pitfalls of a Nader-style third-party presidential bid (although like the idea of his running for Senate) and appreciate the comments upthread that seem to be looking toward a different approach and Solidarity might be one, at least in terms of the overall framing as not so much a party as a movement and not focused on policy so much as these two meta issues of de-corruption of Congress, the White House and state governments as well as media reform since the media are using tons of cash gained from selling campaign ads to candidates, money gained by candidates received from corporations and K Street, keeping a vicious cycle going in which that cash is used to denigrate the political class and hold up all politicians, including some beneficial ones, as entertainment fodder for ratings while they keep the general public ignorant on issues like single-payer and how it works, issues of Copenhagen, etc., you know the drill. If these issues are not commercial and thus are not getting to the public, we need to change that value at its core. Average people viscerally relate to something lost in our democracy. Part of what’s lost is the feeling we have a say. We don’t. The TeaBaggers are taking advantage of this estrangement. K Street has the say and when we saw Baucus standing behind Obama as the Senate bill was announced, there was a visceral sense of nausea among most of my political friends and fairly average citizens around here. They know he’s a K Street guy. It’s not about being a Republican or a Democrat but are we living in a democracy anymore?
Anyway, when I opened up this diary by Jane and saw her quotation of that brilliant 2006 column by Pach, it was “Whamo!” – the whole thing came into focus. I’m naïve compared to other bloggers who check in regularly to FDL but if anything in my notes on “Solidarity for Democracy” is of any value, please build on it. I plan to work on it as a community project through meet ups and group meetings to create a kind of incubational groundwork receptive to candidates that Jane and FDL and others of the better blogs, unions and groups manage to round up and put forth as alternatives (if recommended by Solidarity they will be steeped in the values of clean elections and media reform and, corny as it sounds, receiving a seal “guaranteed for Good Government-keeping” – they could be Dem, Republicans, no matter so long as they adhere to these two core principles of clean elections and clean media). I think we have to work both ends — the candidate and the voting base – outside the national Dem Party or D.C. political system.
How to accomplish this I don’t know but my brief experience so far this year moving this idea around amongst friends here in my community in northeast Pennsylvania (fairly conservative, yet conservatives seem to be instantly aware of the problem, whereas the Obama phenomenon has muddied the waters among Democrats who voted for him who seem unable to admit to themselves that he could be corrupt) tells me there will be fairly immediate interest in the two linked meta-ideas of two main issues of campaign finance and media reform inasmuch as these affect the electoral process so profoundly and have to be taken care of first, as a priority. People sit up and take notice right away and recognize the current HCR bill as being prime evidence of the problem of the corruption of these two entities, campaign finance and media. We are just about to have the Supreme Court hand down a ruling in Citizens United vs FEC that might allow corporations to directly finance elections (they virtually do already but this case may blow it wide open), so we will have our work cut out cracking the nut of corporate personhood and all that jazz. Meanwhile Solidarity for Democracy keeps me out of trouble and certainly at the edge of my chair when I open up diaries like this.
Thanks, Jane, for a great shot today, and to all the commenters upthread.
Just saying, to continue the conversation; the Overton Window works from the Left as well as the Right.
Push it open.
People on blogs were so mad at me for calling out Harry and Nancy in 2006 as much as people are pissed at Jane for calling out the DLC and the whole Administration right now.
Democrats own this mess as far as the people of “now” are concerned, and they just need to be pushed, Pushed, PUSHED!
dissenta — scroll up — your comment at 92 is still there. this comment is a duplicate of it
“Politics is the art of the possible- about compromise and being pragmatic.”
When I hear such tripe, is when I run.
Welcome to FDL gd27.
The above is an example of false equivalency. Obama is President of the United States, Grover Norquist is president of an anti-tax advocacy group. Hardly comparable.
Since he was elected Obama has been dismissive of people on the left. He is only interested in using progressives as a reference point (the right being another) for purposes of triangulation. He is not interested in working with us, lest he be perceived as shifting too far from his imaginary center.
Additionally, no one is suggesting a permanent alliance or merging of interests with Norquist or any other conservative. This is only an experiment to see how the powers that be react when pressure is applied simultaneously from right and left on an issue of mutual concern.
No, it’s not. Godwin’s Law simply states that if a debate goes on long enough on the Internet, eventually someone will mention Hitler. Think of it as Murphy’s Law applied to debating.
Usually a page refresh is all that is required.
well said, ratfood.
a seal “Guaranteed for Good Government-keeping”
should read “Good Democracy-keeping.”
What ratfood said, better than I could say it.
As proof that your comment is still there, I’ll say that I’m glad that folks on the right are getting wise to the idea that there is too much uniformity in the news. They didn’t seem to get that while their guy was in the White House. Maybe they’ll remember after Obama leaves office.
but as the old fault lines are breaking down it creates intense tribal hostility in some quarters.
There really do seem to be a lot of people for whom politics is mainly a social club, quite like people who don’t believe going to church because it’s ‘good for the kids’.
Perhaps those of us who have worked with civil libertarians of the GOP for years (and watched them pilloried by their own party for doing so) are going to be more comfortable making those “strange bedfellows” alliances, but the inadequacies of the status-quo are quickly opening up many others to them too.
I start from the presumption that the civil (and political) liberties are to defended at all costs and by any means necessary. (Including that of minorities, full stop.)
If Grover Norquist wants to do the right thing, if Ron Paul wants to do the right thing, then they are welcome to do the right thing and good on them. I guess they aren’t hopelessly irredemable sacks of shit after all.
OTOH, if a man or woman expouses all the things I believe but when push comes to shove they roll over every time and won’t do the right thing… well then, they suck. I have never understood politics to be about social clubiness or primarily or solely does a party operate as a social club, but that’s apparently the age we live in. (I don’t mean you shouldn’t drink with your friends, I mean people get involved to do things, hopefully, not only because they know all these other people.)
So if someone wants to come over to the side of the Lord (he said, poetically, not literally) then bring them over.
max
['Gotta have your priorities in order.']
I’m A Democrat, And I’m A Republican, “What’s The Difference?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWO4SRCvGdA
Yeah I know. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. One of many — choice comes up and suddenly everyone’s all “state’s rights.” It only works on points of agreement, which are usually things to be “against.”
Yep. At least you can count on Norquist and Paul to be who they are. Not so with progressive politicians these days.
The truth has been completely revealed in the last year. The Dems have Corporate Elite and War Profiteers built right in. This is so they can control both parties and the people have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker for a long long time. Thanks to openly Elite warmongers like Emanuel and the phony that is Lieberman, the masses can see behind the curtain. The DNC better stand up and start throwing these warring slavers out or they will all lose all their control in the next election. The Republicans will be back in power and the phony Dems will destroy what is left of the Democratic party. I personally think the Democratic party is destroyed. However, the fact the the Republicans are open sociopaths makes it hard to predict the exact outcome. It should be a great year for progressives and greens. I plan to vote for every one of them even if I have never heard their name before I read the ballot.
Re: Jake McIntyre’s article, I don’t seem to fit his model. I’m technocratic in my approach to things usually, yet I’m against the Senate health care bill (the House bill, also). I think it’s because I see how it affects the people who need to be helped by this the most. That’s one of the reasons I think that how much you like the bill(s) is a function of how much they are likely to affect you and the people you know.
I don’t really see how there is anything to be gained from an alliance with Libertarian Party types on health care. It’s sort of like making an alliance with wolves to help breed hens. There are isolated, individual efforts where you can find common cause, but not an alliance.
Of course, one aspect of this is that I think Jane is mostly talking about making alliances with elites, people who are already involved in politics. But the trouble is that elites in general aren’t very persuadable. Real change will only come from an alliance with the unwashed masses.
The only way that Democrats at the national level look good is in contrast to Republicans. That’s maybe the saddest thing about the state of our politics.
The letter signed by Jane and Grover was unrelated to health care.
There’s a good joke on this topic:
These two women were driving to Washington to see their congressperson. They get into back country and see these two men jerking each other off.
One turns to the other and says, “Will you look at those democrats jerking each other off Mildred. Isn’t it disgusting?”
Mildred says, “It sure is disgusting Maude, but how do you know they’re deomcrats?”
Maude says, “If they were Republicans they’d be fucking poor people”.
I’d like a link on the egotist smear on Ralph, also.
He’s not humble, but then again, what does he have to be humble about? He’s been a fantastic civics teacher, saved lots of lives with his seatbelts, etc. I just don’t get this egotist stuff about him.
It seems like Democratic sour grapes every time I hear it.
And when they are Third Way centrists they’d be doing both in a menage a trois?
Sure, makes sense.
Progressive Party now with a clear ideology agreed upon no ‘Big Tent” hs to give cover to the likes of Bayh, Stupak, Salazar, Feinstein, et al!
Your thinking seems very sound to me, Dissenta. The two issues you’ve chosen to focus on as threshold imperatives, needed to make all other democratic reforms possible, register at the top of the priority list with me too: campaign finance reform and national media reform.
Your two chosen priorities could be, in essence, the instant “platform” that Steelydan3 seeks through the enormous undertaking of forming a third Party. A platform that would replace – or, of necessity, precede – the unseen, dishonored and discarded “Democratic Party Platform” of 2008, in which a “public health insurance option” was claimed as a high Party priority, to laughable real-Congress effect.
gd27 @ 110, I think what you may be missing in your analysis is the effect of attained power on a person’s actions and motivations. Obama has it (power), Norquist doesn’t, at the moment, which in turn affects their incentives to change the status quo (or not).
Some of the immense, dangerously-concentrated power that Obama now holds is on display in the ongoing ceding – by Party dictate – of the Legislative Branch conference negotiations over the House/Senate health reform bills to the control of White House/Executive Branch political actors – via an undemocratic, secretive process that I’ve tried to highlight (but won’t here so as not to discourage your laudable efforts to continue to try to improve the bill).
That same power imbalance is a prime target of campaign finance and media reform. Our Congress now plays the role of illegitimate de facto Parliament to Obama’s Prime Minister, yet, unlike an actual Parliament, there’s no threat to Obama’s Executive/presidential power from Congress except that posed at the edges by (yet-to-materialize) genuine oversight of his administration, or, more fundamentally, by Party-decreed “off the table” impeachment proceedings (the Constitutionally-vital separation of powers being increasingly subsumed, to little or no public outcry, by Party and presidential aggrandizement).
Both reforms are aimed at returning genuine, honest representation to the people – so that our federal representatives must actually pay heed to the people, not just to their corporate campaign underwriters. Which would mean, among other things, the end of a primary reason for the futile, hopeless hobby, encouraged by the national media, of trying to lobby one isolated man atop the Executive Branch to singlehandedly “change” the nation even as his Constitutional duties – unlike those of the Congress – actually have little or nothing to do with representing and enacting into law and policy the will of the American people.
well said
I voted for Ron Paul in 2008. You don’t get much more conservative than that. However, I’ve changed my mind about healthcare after following the coverage of the healthcare bill on this site. My instinct was to not support any more government intervention into healthcare. Now, I think that the United States needs a public option to compete with the insurance companies that are so powerful that they currently control congress.
I think the whole idea advanced by Greenwald about a split in the Democratic Party may or may not be true among leaders of the Democratic Party, but the more important split is between the Democratic base and the leaders themselves. So for example on health care, Medicare for All is favored by most of the public, but it’s rejected by 2 out of 3 elected Democrats.
It’s when I want to hear Norske show up and say CITIZEN FUCKNO
(((*falls over*)))
A very interesting post and offers views to explain much of what people are seeing.
I would classify the mechanism of public-private partnerships as a technique or method; for example, using private companies to manage delivery of public services: schools, hospitals, prisons(?); or in this case use them to provision public healthcare. As such, techniques are used in order to achieve political (and/or ideological) objectives. For me it is these objectives that frame the understanding and expectations we have of what our politicians stand for (although the means also characterise their values).
What appears to be developing is uncertainty or doubt regarding the actual objectives being sought by the Obama Administration from a lack of understanding how previously stated objectives can be achieved by the means being adopted (in the shape of the Healthcare bill, the Fanny/Freddy Bailout, etc). This to me seems as much a failure of communication as anything else. And communication seems something that the current Whitehouse seems very poor at managing.
If we look back Its not clear to me (honest admission) where the Fox News ban fits into a corporatist model? More importantly, theres been no pro-active effort to explain and promote the benefits/merits of a corporatist approach to American Society, to frame the debate on their terms – to set the agenda. If the govt were cultivating closer integration with private companies to achieve their political objectives, they seem to have discounted the media in that respect.(i.e. I am having difficulty finding instances of press briefings where Gibbs engages with the media earnestly and not in a flippant/dismissive tone).
Finally if the Obama Whitehouse were intent on fashioning the Healthcare reform bill into a model of public-private partnership, they seem only to have arrived here as a result of one senators idiosyncrasies. Without Joe Liebermann, wouldn’t the Healthcare Bill from the Senate be largely the same as the House version and include a Public Option? Unless one sees Sen. Liebermann as being the principle agent of Whitehouse policy direction there.
As a conspiracy-skeptic, It appears to me that there is less design and more optimism/opportunism at work here, the path-of-least-resistance and short-term thinking matches the superficial engagement from the Whitehouse once the process of defining Healthcare reform was underway and politically, the timeline for reform means practical change wont be apparent until after 1012.
(n.b. If a corporatist/partnership movement was planned for Healthcare from the start wouldnt President Obamas own communications have been more consistent or carefully worded?)
this is interesting in as much as I instinctively reject Obama, Reid, and other wise man of the Senate when their wisdom of acting against the electorate’s will is justified by claiming that “Politics is the art of the possible- about compromise and being pragmatic.” and therefore we are to STFU!
So, when I hear that tripe I run.
Insurance companies are monopolies that take outsize profits for the value they add, if any. Cigna’s CEO recently retired with a 73 millon dollar golden parachute. Messaging is not the problem here.
Wow, Jane, thank you for reminding us of the collective wisdom of the Lake.
some things we are never going to agree on. Abortion has no middle ground as those of us against it see it as murder, plain and simple. So that makes it more cut & dried than even slavery for us on the right, and most of the most strident anti-abortion people I know are women, mostly mothers.
We also will never really see eye to eye on the role of government….you guys love oversight and regulations which mean more power for the government. We distrust the government, and see such extensions of oversight and regulations as feeding ground for corruption and lobbying and the like.
We can easily get on board on campaign finance reform, probably even for the federal funding thing.
We are against net neutrality, in large part for reasons your side would like….we like the original concept of copyright with a limited life span, not eternal protection of the status quo through government protection.
We like our government small, so that each of us can decide what it is we want from life. You can ride your bikes and take public transit to your farmers markets, while we drive our pick up trucks to the rifle range….
Hi there,
I agree with you – that’s why it seems to me that the Senate Healthcare Reform bill is more a product of adhoc haggling than implementation of a Whitehouse-driven ideology.
If there was an ideology being exercised, Id assume that coherent communications would be part of the equation (if the administration were looking beyond the tip of its nose).
The alternative hypothesis might be that there isn’t the confidence that a credible argument CAN be constructed – if that is the case, then severe criticism is amply justified. Either way, the onus is on the guv to talk with the people if they want the votes in 2010.
Clarity in orienting one’s political ideology within the range of possibilities is enormously helpful, even as a first approximation. By noting stark polar opposites poilitical thinking as opposed to nuanced shades of simililarities one can see where naturally occuring alliances are useful and achieveable. Polar opposites are not likely to bear any fruit.
A scheme resembling the points on a compass that plots ideologies is helpful, where:
-North being Popular or democratic ruled
-South being autocratic or ruled by dictate
-East being strong central government
-West being weak central and great local government
This scheme allows one to “fix” one’s political orientation to at least some degree of coherence. In this scheme left (or West) and right (or East) does have real counterparts in reality. For instance due east you have a centrally planned society being Communist or Fascist depending on where you are on the North-South axis.
And due West you have a totally locally run government society being Libertarian (or Anarchical) or Dictatorial depending on where you are along the North-South axis.
In this way we see that a “liberal” political temperamnet hovers more around the NE to W area and poles apart from the SW to East area that defines an autocratic fascist prone way of thinking.
The idea is that what allows people to be of a like political mind and to work together and form parties is whether they have a “popular or democratic” predisposition vs an aotocratic one. Libertarians and liberals have a natural affinity where they both differ markedly from dictatorial or fascist ideologies with whom they would not be able to work together.
Identifyiong political mindsets in this way is not necessarily confining or meaningless and I do think that it allows for some clarity in seeking like minded people with whom one may ultimately join forces. Which I believe is essetial and worht pursuing. I have every expectation of finding common ground with those on the right as long as they are not too autocratic.
Easy huh?
We’re not as far apart as you think.
1. We have no problem with you being anti-abortion. None. We just don’t want you (or the Govt, you know the Big Government) telling women what to do with their own bodies.
2. We do love competent and honest oversight and fair regulations designed to keep powerful interests from steamrolling the little guys. Oh, let’s see, um, what recent event might oversight and regulation have prevented?…Oh, yeah, the BANKSTERS DESTROYING THE FUCKING ECONOMY!!!
Wall St (e.g. Bob Rubin) got Bill Clinton and Phil Gramm to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act and institute the Securities Modernization Act of 2000. Add in Greenspan slashing interest rates and keeping them low for too long after 9/11, and that’s the short explanation why we’re on the verge on a depression, if we’re not there already.
Wall St owns both parties. We agree with you that government is a feeding ground for corruption and lobbying, and that’s why we want to get Wall St out of government.
3. You might be surprised to know we also distrust government. We distrust authoritarianism. We don’t like a police state, one which spies on its citizens, tortures them (or anybody), can lock them up indefinitely without due process, etc.
This might come as a schock to you, but we like the Bill of Rights, too. Most of us don’t even want to take your rifles away. It will shock you, but we’re not all granola-chomping vegetarians. hippies. Some of us hunt. We drive pickups and muscle cars. We like and buy American-made products, especially when they’re union-made.
So, we do have disagreements, but I don’t they’re as insurmountable
as you thought. The oligarchs are afraid of one thing, and one thing only: That you and me (in general) might find enough common ground and do what we can to prevent their rape and pillage of America.
And just between you and me, I fucking hate NPR.
But, please, for the love of God, wtf is wrong with a farmers market???
Good insight.
While I agree with your suggestion, may I also suggest that our own Revolutionary War is a great model too.
We fought a war of independence, primarily for 3 reasons.
1. Monarchical tyranny that abandoned rule of law = (present day)Imperial Presidency that has abandoned rule of law
2. Taxation without representation = (present day) taxation without representation
3. Trade restricted thru East India Company (international) dominance = (present day) Globalism (international corporations dominance
You need 25 Grayson Moneybombs to create viable house races. You need four moneybombs to create a viable Senate run. As Atrios and others have noted we have another way to raise money for independent candidates. Its almost like they prefer to be bought off…
So let me get this straight: you oppose “oversight and regulation” by the government unless it involves telling women and their doctors what they can and can’t do. Right?
Not real sure what you are actually saying here.
But you dislike “Net Neutrality?” You want AT&T/Verizon/Comcast setting the traffic rules for the internet and determining what content gets seen first and by whom? (i.e., those content providers willing to pay get their traffic delivered first OR those surfers willing to pay get their requested web sites first? So you’re willing to allow AT&T to take their time in delivering to you the web site you wanted to visit to find out about tea partys because Fox News web site paid them to deliver the Fox content first?
Oh I see. Now that you’re all in bed with the teabaggers you can’t stand the heat!
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
I heartily agree. Why not start from scratch with something like an ‘American Progressive’ party. Starting from scratch rather than trying to inhabit an existing party (the Greens for instance) allows us to define the party in more inclusive ways.
I remember a while back learning about something called Stewardship of the Creation. The concept started among right wing Baptists pastors who began to preach that the Bible mandated environmental protection. The point is that if people from the left support environmental protection, and people from the right support environmental protection, why can’t we even get something as lame as cap-and-trade. Because it doesn’t matter what the PEOPLE want. The only thing that matters is what the corporations want. Difference on the issues is fine. But believing in anything is futile if the corporations always have a veto over good ideas.
Someone told me that Lawrence Tribe, the Harvard Law Professor who is solidly to the left, has argued that the U. S. Constitution must protect an individual right to own firearms. I can’t find the paper where he lays out his argument. But it seems to me that the old stereotypes that the left has of the right and the right has of the left are what’s allowed the corporate interests to subvert government to their own ends.
The point is that there is enough common ground between the left and the right for us to work together to break the corporate stranglehold on the U.S. government, and return to something remotely like government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
Kay, again: Why is it OK in your book for PFAW, CAF, Alec Baldwin and the ACLU to spend most of the past decade working with Grover Norquist, but not FDL? And why is it OK for Obama to appoint Republicans and other conservatives to key posts, but not OK for FDL to work with Republicans and conservatives on various issues?
You keep refusing to address anything other than by hurling invective and pounding the table. That’s not the sign of someone who thinks they have a strong, fact-based argument.
Furthermore, the people attacking Jane on this were and are silent on the fact that PFAW, CAF, Alec Baldwin and the ACLU have spent most of the past decade working with Grover Norquist. Or that Obama himself not only works with Republicans, but appoints Republicans and other conservatives to key posts.
The giveaway here is shown by this commenter, who refuses to address anything other than by hurling invective and pounding the table. As I told her, that’s not the sign of someone who thinks they have a strong, fact-based argument.
Hey, thanks for discussing this in a relatively calm manner. And welcome!
RE: the whole “why is Jane working with non-liberals?” question — Well, as I keep pointing out (and certain people keep ignoring in favor of hurling fact-free invective), if PFAW, CAF, Alec Baldwin and the ACLU can spend the better part of a decade working with the same guy Jane’s working with on issues ranging from preventing an anti-Muslim witchhunt to fighting against the “Patriot” Act’s nastier parts, then why is Jane forbidden from doing the same?
Now there’s a logical argument.
Or why not just ‘The American Party’. Makes it even more inclusive.
billmon found the perfect accompanying cartoon.
Giving this matter a bit more thought, I think to clarify I should say that what separates the left and right political way of thinking is better represented along the North South axis rather than the East-West axis.
Where the liberal left (North) mindset is more popular in nature and the the conservative right (South) minset is more autocratic in nature. In this way the alliance we on the left could make with the right would depend on the extent that the right was commited to autocratic dictatorial or fascist tendencies.
The role of government and the other issues that are overlayed would of course be important but less so than the popular vs autocratic tendencies.
I like “Grassroots Progressives” better as a name for our incipient new Major Party. (Let’s not handicap ourselves by thinking of ourselves as a “Third Party.”)
I have shopped at Farmers Markets, in fact I do frequent small privately owned stores when I can. I do avoid union made goods whenever I can too, but that is a matter of principal, like not using dimes because FDR’s face is on them (I give about $300 worth of dimes a year to charity which I refuse to use – that is how much I detest FDR).
Of course we have a lot in common. We are all americans and our base goals are very similar. I was no saying we are miles apart, but there are some insurmountable hurdles….and the abortion one is a biggie, becasue if you do see it as murder, then you can’t really turn a blind eye to what others think of it. It would be like the north saying they are against slavery, but if the people in the south want to hold slaves, fine. There were enough people on Redstate who thought the Stupak ammendment might be a good enough trade off if HCR passes….but let’s put that aside.
We like civil liberties, we could support large parts of the Swedish Pirate party…lots of us didn’t like the Patriot Act (especially those of us who have to fly a lot for a living) and we definitely won’t like what they are doing at airports nowadays….but we sort of tend to cheer for Jack Bauer, and in that sort of circumstance we would probably torture the hell out of our enemy.
We also tend to like the free market, on the reward AND RISK side. we would have no problem letting wall street fail, we are generally confident enough in the industriousness and perseverance of individuals, even if the “reset” button were hit…and all currency were to disappear and lose all value….teachers in russia kept working for more than 4 years without seeing regular paychecks.
I have also lived in social democratic countries for extended periods. I know what social programs do, and don’t do. I see that health care without incentives leads to mediocre care,a dn that systems that have public and private options breed inequities whcih I see as vital to the performance of the system, but are a thorn in the side of those on the left at all times.
I can’t understand how the left supports so many things like teachers unions which continually fail the most vulnerable in the society, how NAACP poverty pimps try and hold minorities in government servitude in perpetuity.
We definitely see eye to eye on a lot of the end goals, but let’s not get caught up in the utopia that we see all things the same.
And I probably am more hippie than you could imagine. I also know your side definitely isn’t that was playing with stereotypes….
yes!
Because since abortion is murder, plain and simple, murder is never allowed…except in self defense.
It is pretty clear and philosophically sound.
I have a child born out of wedlock to someone I did not see living with, where thoughts of the convenience of abortion did cross my mind, so I am not talking with no experience, and I have enough friends and acquaintences who have made the decision to abort, and I continue being friends with them, and support them wherever I can. The birth of my child did convince me how wrong that decision would have been, and the experience of many friends who have suffered after their abortions has strengthened my belief even more.
It really is the only social issue I am adamantly conservative about…..so let’s not dwell on it too much, it takes us off topic here.
definitely, and without the “tyranny of the majority” I have seen each side tend to take when they get either a majority or a super majority.
take a look which corporations are on which side of the issue…and although your grandmother might have lived at a time when AT&T was a giant corporation, their market cap is something like 1/100th of that of Google, and Google, Microsoft and all the corporate software and net providers are on the pro net neutrality side, meaning that is the side of the big corporate kingpins trying to get government to guarantee thier current status quo….
Sorry but you’re mixing market cap with who is guarding the gates. I don’t want AT&T/Time-Warner/Comcast/Verizon setting the rules of what is allowable viewing in the internet. Google and Microsoft are not trying to block what is available to me. Their individual size as companies does not matter in this particular fight.
“The people “to the right” have to be divided into two distinct camps. One camp is truly economically right, and there Kilgore is correct. The other one is socially right but possibly economically confused, and there Greenwald is correct.
I think Jane has it all wrong when she reaches out to fellow travelers of the Libertarian Party.”
I’ve always intuitively disliked the political uses of libertarianism to which we have been most frequently exposed, however, in more recent years I’ve started thinking it’s not so simple.
It’s not as if the corporatism that we’re been seeing now is acceptable to principled, thoughtful libertarians and that one could form an alliance there in order to make some necessary corrections. It’s also politically feasible because “socializing the losses and privatizing the gains” is unpopular with virtually everyone except those in business and government who are *directly* benefitting from such a policy.
On that note, it’s also pretty clear that we have corporatists POSING as libertarians, hiding their own SYSTEMATIC deployment of government power behind libertarian rhetoric–much as Obama seems to have projected this nicey nice “liberal”-friendly image during campaign season.
If principled, thinking libertarians were willing to say you don’t get to sytematically deploy government power in your own interest and then trash your business and then get bailed out by the tax paying public–just because you’ve manipulated big government power, including its power to levy taxes, so that you can–why would I argue with that?
I still think the libertarianism–espeically the one or two dime store ideas to which we’ve been most relentlessly exposed–has serious limitations, but I also think our government is so captured by a handful of potent manipulators that we *need* it.
Free contract, not for nothing, is more or less the basis of most American political ideology, including the fact that we think our electoral franchise is supposed to mean something.
How much freedom do you really want to give away with your vote? Right now, I’m thinking not too much.