Today’s vote in the Senate to pass their health care reform bill was a big win for many people. It was a big win for the drug companies, the biologics industry, the hospital companies, and the for-profit health insurance corporations. They will all get billions of government dollars piled on to their ledgers, and and millions of Americans now forced to buy their products. The vote was also a huge win for the lobbyists who just saw their profits jump thanks to this great opportunity to show their clients just how powerful their hold on Washington really is.
This vote was also a political win. It was a big deal for politicians–like Barack Obama, Max Baucus, Rahm Emanuel, and Harry Reid–who cared more about putting up a “W” on the scoreboard than about the policy. It was also a big day for senators like Blanche Lincoln, Mary Landrieu, Ben Nelson, and Joe Lieberman. The incredibly broken rules of the Senate gave them an absurd amount of anti-constitutional power that allowed them to hold reform hostage for pork and industry favors.
It was loss for the country. Our broken health care system will remain broken and costs will continue to rise at an alarming rate. Things like drug re-importation and a robust public option, which would have helped bring down prices for millions of Americans, were stripped from the bill at the request of powerful industry lobbyists.
It was also a big loss for the progressive movement. We were out-gunned by industry lobbyists, and many of our movement “allies” failed us. A woman’s right to choose was thrown under the bus just to get something passed. The supposed “progressives” in the Senate refused to go all-out and use every tool to achieve the most progressive reform. Lawrence O’Donnell is right, most importantly, this bill will give liberalism a very bad name.
This is not progressive reform. This is a perverse Democratic version of Reagan style trickle down economics. Hundreds of billions will be given to poorly regulated private health insurance companies in the hope that they spend roughly 80% of that money on actually providing people with health care. It forces millions of people to buy very expensive insurance that they cannot afford to get actual health care, so that Democrats can proudly say millions more people are “covered.” Private health insurance companies are what have ruined our current system and are dramatically less efficient than public insurance programs, yet Democrats will use them almost exclusively. It is a massive reward for a history of terrible performance. Instead of reining in the insurance companies, it only enriches, empowers, and entrenches them further. The only “check” on the industry will be new regulations, but with extremely weak to practically non-existent enforcement, it is basically no check at all.
This program is not even a good foundation on which to build later reform. It will be a wasteful, expensive, and probably unpopular program for only a small subset of lower income Americans. That is a recipe for making it a target for cuts by conservatives, not expansion by progressives. This bill could easily discredit the move for true universal health care by being such a poorly designed failure.
There is some good in the bill, but not much. It will put roughly 15 million more people on Medicaid/CHIP, but mainly because the private insurance companies did not even want to cover these poor people. It will put some needed regulations on the books, but does not create the strong enforcement mechanisms to make them a reality. But these improvements come at a huge cost. There is a poorly designed tax that will cause many people’s insurance to get worse, a rollback of women’s reproductive rights, and a mandate forcing people to buy low quality, expensive insurance for unregulated private insurance companies. This bill will make the enemies of reform even stronger for the next fight.
The only silver lining is that we live in a bicameral constitutional democracy regardless of how much the Washington media refuses to acknowledge this basic fact. The House has passed a better bill that contains actual reform. If progressive House members would use their power to stop any bill that doesn’t contain real reform from becoming law, we could get actual reform. They need to stop enabling the Senate transformation of our government into a broken, unicameral, non-representative, super-majority plutocracy.
This Senate bill is not a step forward for progressivism, it is a step backward. It is part of the transformation of all-important public social responsibilities into a privatized profit- making machine that lives off of government money won through a corrupt cycle of lobbying, campaign donations, and corporate giveaways. This bill does not advance the progressive movement, it just uses its name and mantras to justify a huge industrial bailout. In the long run, I see this bill as discrediting the progressive movement, not advancing it. This problem is not that this bill is just small reform, it is unworkable reform doomed to fail.



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Our broken healthcare system and our broken political system will be simultaneously reinforced if thing gets signed in its current form.
Your final paragraph is one of the best summaries of contemporary America that I have ever read. It has been copied and it will be pasted plentifully wherever I can on the Internets, beginning with the dittoheads at dKos (exclusive of some very fine people over there, including Markos).
Thank you.
Thanks for this, Jon.
Hope it gets front-paged quick.
FunnyWheelieDiva
amen, peakdavid
(more often seen at Glennzilla’s place, iirc?)
Merry, merriness, everyone. Hope all y’all find warmth and love and hope with your loved ones this weekend and in the new year.
FWDiva
Oh, so very, very terrible.
With this legislation, which will change in conference committee, people now walking around with undiagnosed cancer, high blood pressure, and diabetes will be diagnosed and treated. It will save lives.
With this legislation:
- People can’t be banned from insurance because they have pre-existing conditions.
- A major PUBLIC program, Medicaid, will have its biggest expansion since its creation
- Young adults can stay on parents’ plans into their mid-20s
- Tens of thousands will get subsidies to buy insurance that previously they couldn’t afford
- A Patient’s Bill of Rights will be added to the law
- Public health centers will be built
- More health providers will have loan forgiveness for serving underserved communities
- People will have access to a new program for federal long-term care insurance
Any of one these would be BIG. Putting them altogether is HUGE.
But for FDL, it’s just so absolutely terrible. Of course they know how to pass landmark legislation since they have so much experience in getting it done….
The people of the U.S. are breathing their last gasp as a free people. When the Supreme Court rules in favor of corporations being allowed to throw as much money as they want in elections then the corporate revolution will be complete.
we should call it what it is — neoliberalism (which btw, is also true for the house bill and any of the public-private competition model policies).
progressive reform is comprehensive universal healthcare. something like single payer enhanced medicare for all would qualify.
perhaps you missed my previous reply?
i live in MA and romneycare is better in almost all ways than the HOUSE bill.
health insurance is not healthcare. you might want to take a look at marcy’s post, 21% of People in MA Still Forgo Necessary Medical Care, and thread.
And the House and Senate bills are far, far better than what we have now. In the real world of actually getting something passed in a region (the country) that is a lot less liberal than Mass., that is a huge accomplishment.
Get ready for the paid marionettes dropping by to defend this corporate give away disguised as a win for the people.
not so sure about that (that it will be better — certainly for some people it will, but for many others it will be worse. and it will be harder to move forward as it makes the corporations we must take on even stronger).
but regardless, it’s pretty sad that a democratic president and congress won’t support something better than romneycare.
Obama will have remarks on HCR bill in a couple minutes. msnbc/cnn/cspan1
Did they ever leave?
Isnt it outrageous that for a few million in campaign donations,these politicians will sell out.Special interests pay out pennies for billion dollar returns.This Democratic party will lose in the upcoming elections because people have realized there pretty much all the same and will not show up at the polls.The rethuglicants win by default,and then we will truly see HELL unleashed!
I’ll pass, thanks. His bs over the past year has been more than sufficient.
different people have different opinions. doesn’t mean they are being paid.
Given how your government works and the fact that money is considered free speech what did you except?
Lawrence O’Donnell is wrong. The bill will not give liberalism a bad name because so many liberals opposed it — Jane, Ed Schultz, oodles of young Obama volunteers, …
No matter what goes to Obama’s desk, we must declare victory, savage the contents of the bill, develop an agenda to fix it, and push that agenda in 2010 to get a mandate to fix it.
Because Republicans will be declaring it a defeat, savaging the contents, and pushing for a mandate for repeal. Given public support of the public option, we can beat that. But only if we have candidates who are taking on Republicans as well as primarying Democrats.
the thing I like allot about this bill is that it begins to undo the gooper scam of medicare advantage.
those HMOs got 13% more per patient than regular medicare, spread a few pennies around for eyeglasses and even gym memberships, a few drugs- and pocketed the rest.
It was privatizing and vampirizing Medicare by the goopers.
this bill takes that money back and give ALL seniors free preventive and diagnostic care without copays and starts to close the scandalous donut hole.
it is worth way more than the pennies spilling off the HMO wheelbarrows on the way to the bank.
Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool.
US KIA Irak: 4,371
US KIA Afghanistan: 937
US MBS 2009: 44,268 and this legislation won’t change this dynamic
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.
Namaste
The bill takes 150 billion from them with one hand and gives them 1 trillion with the other.
Been seeing this around:
Jane for President!!!
peace to you and the tigers
Then you don’t think that Rahm or Axelrod have an operation paying operatives to defend Obama and the awesome policies of this administration in the traditional media and the internet?
When the house and senate merge a bill do they have to go back to cloture votes and needing 60 senators?
I would like to see a chart of how the mandates and offsets hit people by income deciles.
You are so very naive. The House bill is much better (but not good) so hopefully there is still a chance for those of us who are not rich.
yes
Have a Sweet and Merry Day, SD.
democracynow rerun just started.
Do they get paid as much as Slinkerwink?
thanks! just turned on kpfa
yes
mille grazia
i expect they do. but that doesn’t mean any particular individual is a paid operative.
guess i’m a little sensitive to rejecting people for their views because i’ve certainly taken a lot of shit for supporting single payer and/or questioning the po-multi-payer hcan/dem policy.
Thanks, Jon and Peterboy.
My daughter will qualify for medicaid now, this will save me $$$$.
Well, when the final bill passes.
What is tragic is that Obama has always been a conservative who favored the health industry and finance. Look at his staff and cabinet. He fooled his liberal base.
Perhaps giving “liberalism” a bad name is the plan.
Once they tie this horrific bill to “liberalism” they will be able to go openly corporate without any pretend language in it. They can simply say anything progressive or liberal is just another “health care reform” bill.
If the government is to be unicameral government, then I guess we have to kick ALL members to the street in the next two elections. Don’t count on the House however. They are signaling capitulation before they’ve even seen the bill. Slaughter’s words are likely just that, WORDS. She has already commented that she will likely vote for the bill regardless of her protestations as to its contents.
completely agree. costs by income level has been something single payer advocates have been demanding for a long time. see for example, this diary by drsteveb (which i cross posted here with his permission).
I was going to say, “no he didn’t fool ALL of us” but then, I was never his “base”. I held my nose and voted for him because real candidates didn’t make it to the end (they weren’t corporation-fellating enough).
I wont hold my nose and vote again. I wont hold my nose at all. I will vote opposit the stench that is Obama and the Dems that vote for this bill.
didn’t i just hear obama say this bill holds insurance companies accountable?
wtf, it does nothing of the sort. what a smooth-talking, lying, glib, son of a bitch. if his mother is anything like the woman he spoke of during the campaign, i’ll bet she is terribly ashamed.
One of the greatest accomplishments was turning attention from an illegal war based on cooked evidence and the rejection of any restraints against torture as our national policy. See that’s past history, water under the bridge so to speak. There was no time to look into any of this because we were reforming health insurance,took the whole year. Dawn Johnson…health care, global warming… health care, invading Yemen and Pakistan…health care, restore Glass Steagall…health care, trillion dollar bank bailout…health care. The obstruction of anything meaningful was an unmitigated success for the senate and as a bonus $200 million in campaign contributions from the insurance racket.
Happy holidays peace on earth ect.
Actually O’Donnell is wrong, as he often is. Liberalism already had a bad name (Phil Ochs pegged the reasons why, perfectly, more than 40 years ago).
Far from the oracle too many here make him out for, O’Donnell had selfish, personal reasons for his unending criticism of this entire effort, starting with the fact that the Senate he worked in got nothing done on the issue, and ending with his prediction that this Senate wouldn’t either – one he made early and often on “Countdown.” With all due respect to K.O., Larry, please stick to your role on “Big Love” and to consulting on idealistic depictions of government, will ya? The rest of us will do the hard work necessary to better the real world.
As Jon accurately points out, it’s the Progressive movement that took two steps back today, but folks, remember: We’re watching sausage-making. The House – and the only true Progressive leader in this effort to date, Nancy Pelosi – awaits.
I’m ignoring all the talk that Dodd, et al., are spewing about the “hard work” they did to get us here, and instead taking the view that today’s vote was necessary to get us to conference, where that real work will begin.
Will we still be disappointed with whatever finally emerges? Unless it’s a single-payer system that outlaws insurance companies (good luck!), I know I will be. But the fact remains that this is an incremental – okay, excremental process – and until we can vote in people who will stop excreting all over us, it simply is what it is.
The question is, will we allow this to sour us to the extent that we surrender in that effort, or will it strenghten our resolve to get true Progressives elected?
http://www.themalcontent.com
We should celebrate! Didn’t Congress also pass a campaign finance reform bill some years ago? It’s a joy to see our democracy at work.
Thats the best summary of the reality of our government I have ever read.
Edward R Murrow would be proud of it . Excellent work Jon Walker, have yourself a great Christmas and a happy New Year, and keep on keepin on.
Jon,
Many thanks for the fantastic job you have done in keeping track of the legislation and explaining the many complicated provisions in easy to understand terms. I have one quibble with this post. I wish you would have put your third paragraph first. So many of those I usually agree with are angry with those of us who have consistently opposed the Senate bill seemingly based on political arguments. I believe that you, Jane and the others here, like me, see this as a critical matter of public concern and not as a political game to be won or lost. I understand that we have to be realistic about the politics, but this is a time when the people and their needs should have been the first concern.
I think what Obama meant to say was, “this bill keeps insurance company ACCOUNTANTS busy” (dealing with the HUGE profits!).
On a personal level, not knowing any details, I hope this works out for you. One thing to keep in mind is that if you currently need Medicaid for your daughter you will almost certainly be in the forced to join category when the mandate kicks in. Whether that means that you’ve robbed peter to pay paul or robbed yourself tomorrow to pay bills today is a question only time will tell.
There’s no question that this will help some people, and hopefully you are one of them, unfortunately the big winners will not be the ones forced to buy insurance they can’t use in exchange for medical care they can’t afford. Pharama and Insurance companies who will have the backing of the IRS are the big winners.
Neo-conservativism at its finest. This is extreme right policy, not even centrist. I would hope that neo-liberalism would at least be centrist, but no. The vacuum that is being created for a leftward move, if not relieved, will blow a hole in the world that will make the recent rise in suffering seem like a sweet deal.
nice one.
Read the bill. The so-called consumer protections are illusory.
Read the bill. Millions of people will not gain access to healthcare. They will just be required to buy junk insurance with deductibles so high they can’t afford to use the coverage.
READ THE BILL: The only way to control costs in this bill is to use the review committees to deny needed treatment to seriously ill people. Obama already tried to do this. See Hays v. Sebelius, in which a federal court blocked Obama’s efforts to deny critical treatment for a serious lung disease for a woman on Medicare. This bill enables the administration to do just that. (I always thought the right wing was nuts when they talked about ‘death panels’. Now I’m not so sure.)
My wife has cancer. I crave meaningful healthcare reform. This bill doesn’t provide it. This bill will kill my wife. Count me among the bitter majority.
My situation exactly. I had hoped that voting for a precedent President would not be the worst option.
Silly me.
What ignorant, arrogant tripe. Most seniors and the disabled on the Medicare Advantage plans have little money and cannot afford either Medigap plans or the cash outlay which traditional Medicare requires. The Advantage plans made it possible for them to pay a monthly premium and get reasonably good medical care for low co-pays. Now these Medicare beneficiaries are stuck with nothing. Health clubs? Hah! By the way I am a Liberal Democrat.
ha ha
i was wondering what sort of troll attacks like that, and you gave me the answer at the end.
one that feels it necessary to remind everyone he is a real liberal.
go away.
Good Morning Jon and Firedogs,
beautiful and thoughtful response to this monstrosity Jon, Reaganesque indeed – replete with a rollback on Choice that goes further than Great White Father’s wildest ideological dreams
I’m not sure how secure your points on the plus side are. I believe one thing is certain though, after all this we will still have the most expensive, and least accessible health care system in the industrialized world. If that’s true, it leaves us still unable to compete in other markets, and will leave people still struggling financially to pay health care bills. I think that the whole point of pushing this legislation through in a big rush now is, not to help people in the limited ways it does, but to secure industry profits and waste before the crisis became greater and it became evident to everyone that greater reforms would be needed. This legislation is designed to allow the industries who are bleeding us to continue to do so to a greater extent, and for a longer period of time. This is “the best government money can buy” in action.
Yes, it’s good and bad. I don’t qualify for medicaid, but she’s on her own and doesn’t have health insurance through her work. I’ve had to pay for her insurance, just a catastrophic plan through Kaiser with one check-up per year and a $2700 deductible. So this will be good for both of us unless she needs an abortion.
We will have to brace ourselves for the onslaught of deception from all quarters as to the great achievement the congress has just won for the country.
We should fight back just as hard. In many ways the praise for what is being heralded as achievements is absolutely absurd and demonstrates just how distorted the notion what insurance is has become.
Why for instance is it an achievement to insure sick people and not withold insurance from people that become sick? Or to charge elderly more than young? Or to demand that people buy insurance? Only when the idea of being insured has been so corrupted could these questions even arise.
These questions arise only when the purpose of insuring people is to gain profit for insurers, otherwise these questions wouldn’t exist.
The reason insurance works is that the healthy pay for the sick realizing that eventually everyone will become sick to some degree. In this arrangement everyone sees there is an advantage to paying in.
So here why would you ever claim that it is an achievement to insure the sick or stop insuring people once they become sick. The idea that these are achievements would never arise. That is the very reason for insurance to exist, to see these as achievements would just be absurd and meaningless.
Similarly it is already understood that the healthy will pay for the sick, so why penalize the elderly which are by definition more prone to be sick to pay more? It is exactly the bills of the sick that are being paid by the healthy.
These issues only arise when the plan is designed to generate a profit while insuring the sick. Only then is it an achievement to insure the sick while generating a profit. Only then do you have to be insured so that your payments go to paying for the sick and at the same time providing sufficient profit. Otherwise once you realized what your payments were for you would not want to be insured in that way. Only making you do that would seem as an accomplishment.
It is hard to get notions out of people’s head such as the idiocy of paying extra so that others can profit at your expense, because they have had it so beaten into their minds. Confronted with this ever ongoing brainwashing that reinforces these notions it is sometimes too hard to counteract th effect of that. One may have to resort to just not cooperating with the demands that are being imposed.
In refusing to comply we may weaken the whole effort and maybe get others to come along.
Unfortunately this xmas eve will not be remembered as the day health care reform failed, it will be the day of capitulation to corporatacracy.
More billions of profit to finance even deeper control.
What is there to stop them now?
You got that right!
Fortunately, O’Donnell is completely wrong about this historic moment. This legislation has slammed the Overton window open far leftward.
Nearly 100 years of oppo resistance to progressive ideals first voiced by another Teddy ….ROOSEVELT!
Imagine this legislation passing under a Republican Congress or a Republican President. It would never have been on a committee agenda.
Such legislation – as heinous as it is contrasted with the ideal of single-payer government-run medical care financing – institutes the idea of progressive subsidies. (How stupid is that?)
And, thusly, the shrine of for-profit health insurance has been cracked. Pooled risk has been affirmed as a key element. In future, the system will face reforms that must continue to erode the awful nightmares visited on us by and since Reagan.
recommend, The Logic of the Health Care Debate from october 18, 2007 on conservative, neoliberal and progressive modes of thought.. it’s a must read imo.
some bits:
my bold. neoliberal is not conservative, but it’s arguments move people towards conservatism.
The problem is the bill so many thousands of pages, with so many loopholes for insurance companies to jack up premiums, and basically there is no anti trust provisions built in to protect against business as usual profit based greed.. Add in the mandates that force Americans to bloat the very insurance companies that should be reigned in. THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA HAS NO INTEREST IN GOING OVER THE BILL point by point so that Americans know what this bill REALLY amounts to and what consequences is has for them and their families. So naturally, Axelrod et al have the luxury to SPIN their distorted view of the bill ad nauseum. I don’t notice Obama at any Town Halls lately, because at the last one in October 09 in Maryland he was BOOED so much he couldn’t complete a sentence. One young dissenter was escorted out by police to the accompaniment of applause for HIM not OBAMA.
http://www.iviewtube.com/v/86022/president-obama-gets-heckled-at-health-care-rally
Axelrod, and the Dem sellout stand-ins will be on all the Sunday talk shows LYING about how great the bill is and very few in opposition will be given air time. This is part of the reason why so many Americans who get their info only from MSM will continue to be uniformed about the REAL content of this so called Reform bill, until it hits them like a ton of bricks in 2014.
I agree.
I don’t think so
sometimes what you want is bad for you
the republicans set obama up, played him the fool and he fell hook with sinker and line
the republicans have done this with a child’s ease, they not only got the democratic party in arms against obama, they were able to do it while promoting further hatred against obama from the base
in addition they were able to “triangulate” swing voters over to the republican side as well
this bill is a win for republicans and a lose for obama in every sense, it will cost him his presidencey (as if there aren’t enough things costing his presidency, this is now top of the list)
in chess, once in a while you set up a sacrifice, you offer a rook, if they take it you queen your pawn, if you can offer your queen for mate, they don’t have to take the queen but they feel the must,bing it’s mate
obama did not win anything with this bill, he lost big time
the only thing that can save him now is the house of reps, if they do pull his butt out with a bill that’s actual reform then obama can look like the chess master
if they fail the people and their constituents then obama is toast and possibly becomes lame duck for everything else he wants to do
see my link @63. think you are 100% wrong.
(((jackstraw and wife)))
This was a loss for the progressive movement in only one specific way.
Not one of our leaders in the Senate chose to do what LIEberman or Nelson did…hold out for the 60th vote until some of our needs were addressed.
Obama is no liberal. The DLC and DNC are not liberal.
Articles like this are embarrassing. What should be getting a bad name is the DLC wing of the party. The Blue Cross Democrats.
My days with the party (and I have been a loyal activist for years) are over.
Primary fights for progressive candidates and 3rd parties are the rule from now on. What passes for Democrats need to be brought back down to earth so that we can take our party back from the GOP-lite that now controls it.
yup
what door this has opened is the door of forcing the public to buy product from a monopoly
that door is the only door opened
well done
THAT is the gorilla in the room
“Not one of our leaders in the Senate chose to do what LIEberman or Nelson did…hold out for the 60th vote until some of our needs were addressed.”
THIS IS THE CRUX OF IT!! SHORT, SWEET and to the POINT..and that includes, Sanders, Feingold, Harkin, Brown..
Progressives, in name only, obviously, could have made a difference but they SOLD OUT!
But of course Obama, is now getting involved in the reconciliation process. So not being interested in the mechanics before now he, via Rahm, will make sure that what his major donors have asked for is protected. Being the voice of neo-liberalism means that he can crush the malcontents in the name of purity. The big win is the that as the few remaining dissidents capitulate they are forced to go through a form of cognitive dissonance. On the other side of this confrontation there are only followers of the new, improved liberalism.
Sort of like the hostages often go through but a bit more subtle.
Yes. Sadly there are so many naive Obama supporters who don’t think. Blind worship. The rest of us wonder why we voted for him.
howdy perris!! long time no chat. have to run, but hope all is well with you. peace to you and to all.
It’s simply not realistic to think that Big Pharma could remove real competition for themselves in the Senate bill, but was unable to rig the remaining wording so big Pharma and big insurance couldn’t work their way around these supposed restrictions. I’ll bet, logically, all or nearly all rock solid assurances you list as guarantees are nothing of the sort.
Beware the for-profit sausage maker who assures you there is still plenty of good stuff inside.
Eat that sausage at your own risk. Me, … I’ll pass on the Senate Sausage.
And the very VERY weak controls that were in that bill are about to be totally gutted by the corporate SCROTUS. There will soon be NO controls at all…just in time for a boom in “donations” from insurance companies and big pharma to criminal Dems throughout the “government”.
As you’ve just pointed out, it is hard to sell a shitsandwich without coating it with a tasty blend of delicious seasonings on the outside.
Obama sold out to Lieberman. Harkin, Feingold and Sanders simply showed that they have little spine or morals. Put a different way. Lieberman stood his ground and got paid. The silly liberals didn’t even get a smooch afterwards.
If Howard Dean would get back on the air, and make his talking points, A, B, C and D..
NOW and in the future, at least there would be one voice from the DEM party (he was DNC Chair) who could better INFORM Americans about what’s REALLY in this bill. For now, he’s cooled his heels, pushing for Conference changes, but HE knows full well that if the Public Option is reinvigorated, then Nelson in the Senate will
withhold his vote for the final version. The BiLL is obviously being held hostage by insurance lobbyists and by more than one Blue Dog Senator who were offered back room deals by the administration.
IN order to rev up the masses in opposition to this charade of reform, Dean and others must KEEP IT SIMPLE and to the POINT.
Onward Progressive movement. We’re bigger than one presidency. The Progressive movement isn’t about one person. Conference fight next. Hold congress accountable. Be loud. Be involved. Don’t give to the party, give to the candidate that shows progressive actions, not words.
Take care Dragon. We gots the tiger-care gig today all day. Good thing. I’d prolly pound the ‘puter senseless if left alone to meself.
Stay well pups. Back later to lurk…
I always tend to believe in fighting to the end, never giving up. But this will be truly an intrafamilia fight. For example, I am 50, small business owner, no health insurance, totally disheartened by the Senate action and the President’s lies. My father, 81, fully insured thanks to Medicare and a federal pension thinks that what happened today is the greatest thing since napkins. He was calling it Ted Kennedy’s bill!! When I pointed out to him the lack of a public option which came out of Kennedy’s committee he stated “I’ll take the Senate Majority Leader’s word on that. ” I told him I’d take the actual language of the bill. By the way, both of us, have spent decades campaigning on behalf of Democrats. We are not going over to the dark side.
Every single Democratic Senator patted themselves and each other on the back last night. For what? I cannot fathom that any of them sincerely believe this is an historic bill that will expand the safety net, which is what we are supposed to be doing. They will spread that poison of misinformation to their supporters and more than a few of their supporter’s will buy it hook, line and sinker, just like last years campaign promises were bought hook line and sinker. It will be bought by well meaning if not totally informed people like my father.
So where does the fight go from there? Against all 60 Senators? Franken, Sanders, Feingold et al? And when Pelosi capitulates, against her, and the house as well??? The government and the country are seriously broken. Where will the fight occur??
Any pretense that the Democrats are not being controlled by corporate interests flew out the window when Harry Reid managed to hold up the drug reimportation bill for a week so that arms could be twisted to defeat it.
This is supposed to be the party representing the people???
Well at least Reid prevented the ugly spectacle of having to watch Obama writhe in sanctimonious discomfort, over the possibility of vetoing it, so that he could keep the backroom deal promise he and Rahm made.
We make donations. Corporations make investments.
His involvement is to ensure that there will be no controls over insurance companies added and NO attempt of drug reimportation be made.
He has his marching orders. He wants to continue receiving his corporate payola.
Sickening and so transparent!
Yes. I am also looking for new Progressive candidates to support. Hopefully, there are some honest ones left.
I would modify that a bit more:
We make donations, corporations make purchases.
I go back too far. Sadly, this feels like normal. Precious few are the ones who stand tall when the rest cave. I’m not sure but that such “spinelessness’ is ingrained because of how the electorate marches in lockstep, ignorance be danged.
eCAHN. It’s time for you to write a book, or several. I want a record of what’s going on. Jon. Jane. So many of you pups are so wise. “They” should listen. (The faux liberals, that is. don’t hit me.)
Obama didn’t sell out to LIEberman. The fix was in to let LIEberman take the heat off the president and give him an excuse. You really think that they did not expect this?
Obama got exactly the deal he wanted. He has pretty much said that. Why else would he congratulate LIEberman and send the attack dogs out on Howard Dean?
This ‘LIEberman as villain’ ploy was simply a ruse. This has played out for the Rahm White House exactly as planned.
Do you see anyone planning on ‘punishing’ LIEberman for what he did? Of course you don’t. He was just following orders.
Broken system sums it up.
So true!
Apparently not. Even the seemingly bright spot, Franken, has no morals, no spine, no principals. HE could have held out that precious 60th vote and held ALL the cards. He didn’t. In fact, he’s essentially silent.
“Good Germans”, every one of them. I took myself off Franken’s mailing list and let him know he can seek no support of any kind from me in the future now that he has shown where his priorities REALLY lay (with corporations).
Same with Sanders and Feingold.
One thing is for sure. This bill IS HISTORIC.
Oh, it won’t be historic for fixing the health care crisis. This bill doesn’t provide a single American with health care. It provides some with health insurance. Hell, lot’s of folks with health insurance now can’t get health care because of the co-pays and deductibles. So, no fixing the health care crisis.
But it will be historic all right. Decades from now (when our ancestors are still trying to fix the health care crisis), ALL will remember this bill as the first in history to mandate that ALL citizens purchase a good/product from private industry. And once that precedent is set, every industry out there is going to start hiring folks to fugure out how to convince the right people that their product/service serves such a “common public good” that it too, must be mandated. And the fun shall begin.
Someone (can’t recall who), posted on these forums recently that the mandate wasn’t unconstitutional law, it was just shitty law. This someone is a lawyer (IIRC), and someone who I quite respect. So, I’ll defer to his opinion. That said, while mandates may be constitutional, I certainly see nothing in the constitution requiring subsidies, so imagine the days when mandates come without subsidies.
If this really is constitutional, then we may as well all be slaves as mandates without subsidies forces folks to acquire income to purchase mandates. And if our Constitution, which is supposed to limit the power of government over individual, allows this, then I guess I was too harsh on George W Bush and Dick Cheney for shitting all over it. Because IMO, a constitution that allows this deserves to be shat upon.
And welcome to the end of the Democratic Party. Because they can’t blame any Republican for this. They’ve lost me forever, and probably a few million like me. They’ll lose more when the ramification of what’s actually been done here is grasped by the American people. Particularly over the next two elections, as they’ll read the news and hear a health care bill has passed, while nothing in their lives has changed. (After all, 2014 is still 4 years away).
Progressives failed; the American people lost.
Indeed.
“Good Germans”? Seriously?
Christ on a cracker you people have lost all sense of reality if you’re actually saying stuff like that.
Another “you people” I see.
Nuff’ said.
OK. just removed myself from every political database. (except for Grayson)
I can see why some of the Oh Bummah! troglodytes are chirping this morning …. something has actually been done…. yippee… of course the fact that this bill does give some people insurance coverage does not give them health care what it does do is raise the premiums and ensure vast profits for InsurPharma. It is a fig leaf, not a bandaid and when the fig leaf drops we will see that there was nothing there.
Agree with everything Jon says.
Obama has sold out progressives and this nation.
There is not ONE Democrat or Independent sitting in the Senate that had the courage to do the right thing and scupper this abomination of a bill.
The feudal, disfunctional morally and fiscally bankrupt health care system lives on, probably for at least another 10 years.
Mandates of various kinds are what caused the American Revolution. The MAIN mandate that brought the Revolution was not taxes on tea, or any of that piddly stuff. That was all just icing on the cake. The main blow was the Brits mandating that the colonists no longer use their own “colonial script” money. The colonists had devised their own monetary system that did not require a private banker at the helm, did NOT lead to debt automatically (instead of borrowing money into existence as we do whenever we have a Federal Reserve the colonial government simply SPENT the money into existence – it worked GREAT).
The Bank of Britain and all the other central bankers of Europe saw and feared what the colonists were doing with money so we got the “Stamp Act” that mandated that all debts be paid in gold, which put the private banks in charge again.
Ok, that was longer-winded than I really intended but the takeaway is: mandates and theft from the public under government jackboot is the stuff from which Revolutions are made.
No, not “‘Nuff said”…
You want to pick a fight, then step up. Otherwise, I stand by my statement. I’ve seen enough threads here on this site and it’s companions to see people either stating it directly or by implication.
Hell, I’ve been CALLED a “Good German” by people ON THIS SITE for not screaming at the top of my lungs against this bill.
So you want this fight? BRING IT.
I never forgave the Clinton Corporate Sell-out. That’s one of the reasons I worked so hard in 2008 against another Clinton presidency. I will work just as hard against Obama if he doesn’t rent out a pair of working class cover-balls and get to work on his promises.
The problem is, as many times as Progressives dump old corporate stooges, new ones are funded and presented as THE REAL DEAL, this time.
I think the election paradigm we have been working under will never allow us to get out from under the corporate boot on our throats.
We have to come up with a way that would have as a dramatic effect against the corporate doppelgangers we are forced to choose between, as would a vote of no-confidence in the more enlightened democracies.
While I suspect we can easily argue the other way, saying Obama did not sellout to Lieberman, I liked the phrasing because it means that Obama is not in control of even one member of the Senate but is instead a supplicant. Could have said Obama sold out to Lieberman’s bosses but the more direct indication of weakness appealed at the time. Far be it for me to want to give Obama cover.
Obama was one of the folks that made sure Lieberman beat the dratted Democrat in Connecticut but so were the Clintons and the richest guy in the Senate, John Kerry. They’re all part of the corporate lapdog process and probably equally not in charge.
It distresses me no end that the progressive community by and large accepts the underlying ideology of the allopathic medical model we operate under and wants to expand access to a system that kills as many people as it helps!!!
I wish even 5% of the passion that is directed against the insurance companies and the hospitals and pharma for their greed and duplicity were directed at what is the biggest scandal of all in health care – and that is that health care by and large doesn’t get people healthier.
We need to focus on areas such as wellness, infection control, reimbursement for integrative medicine, inclusion of integrative medicine into comparative effectiveness research, etc as the key steps needed to turn our sick care system into a health care system.
Does anyone know how many people are KILLED or seriously harmed ANNUALLY by treatment? How about almost 800,000. Oh and how about over 10 million unnecessary operations and hospital admissions a year. There’s no evidence that medicare or other government insurance programs do any better a job than private insurance in stopping these criminal abuses. So pushing for public options or single payer without simultaneously pushing to reform the medical paradigm is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Where is the outrage and organizing on FDL and in the progressive community to end this mass murder of Americans?
In case you don’t believe this number (and it’s completely understandable that one wouldn’t) take a few minutes to read this report
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8109091/Death-By-Medicine-Gary-Null-The-Dangers-Of-Allopathy
My spouse is good German and I a passable Irishman we both abhor the methods used by the “Good Americans” to saddle us with this piece of shit.
Good Germany has, by the way, an efficient UNIVERSAL health care system as does Ireland, England, Spain, France etc, etc, etc.
It is only the Good Americans that enjoy fucking over the poor, needy and sick.
This may not be the birthday of corporatocracy, or even it’s baptism, but it appears to be no less than confirmation day.
And I’ll take “Missing The Point” for $400, Alex…
It is a perfectly apt metaphor idiot. A “Good German” goes along with the evil currents without putting up any kind of resistance at all. They cave in and go along to get along. They don’t stick their necks out.
Franken, Sanders, Feingold, etc, ARE, by definition, Good Germans to the corporate Democrap cause. They NEVER stick their necks out enough to have ANY effect whatsoever. When they are handed a powerful weapon that could hand them control of the process, they refuse to take it. Any SINGLE one of them could have said, “you don’t have my vote on cloture, and here’s why”. Instead they merely grumbled under their breath and voted in a way to ENSURE passage while also trying to use their vote to salve their supporters.
They are liars. They are cowards. They are “Good Germans”.
Jon,
Thanks for the post. I do have a bit a disagreement.
I do not think this is a total loss for the Progressive movement.
As I have talked with friends and “joe on the street” in the last few weeks irt health care reform, I have found that people were in agreement with everything the Progressive movement stood for on health care reform. Additionally, there was an understanding that Progressives were actually standing up for Main Street and trying to push through good plans for health care reform. Most people stated they had no clue if the Repugs “had” a plan and that they really had heard nothing from the repugs that would help the average person. This even goes for some very staunch conservatives I talked to on the matter.
In my experience, this will not hurt the Progressive Movement, it may have just lit the fire because people are beginning to understand the Progressives were actually fighting for The People.
This fight is not over and I think we have more people behind the progressive positions on health care reform than perhaps realized.
You may take my “Good German” statement as absolutely the same thing as the accurate MODERN version “Good Amerikan”. The “k” is crucial in this however.
Hell, by contemporary (reversed) standards, we need a LOT of Good Germans to replace our rack of “Good Amerikans”. (does “Good Amerikaners” work better?)
A big loss for the progressive movement — I knew it was a blow to the movement but I didn’t realize just how bad it was until the past few days. I’m reading things that, truly, I never thought I’d see in the progressive blogosphere. Unf-cking believable things:
WTF are you talking about?
I pointed out the “you people” reference in your post. That’s ALL I pointed out. In case you were born yesterday, “you people” has some serious racial undertones.
And you want to fight ME??? Great. That’s exactly what the elite want too. Keep us fighting, keep us divided, keep us distracted.
I have no interest in fighting you. I merely wanted to point out the “you people” reference. Although admittedly, I’ve slipped and used it myself sometimes. At least I try to remember not to.
It’s NOT an apt metaphor. It’s hyperbolic and reactionary, and all it’s designed to do is to piss people off.
Well, mission accomplished. Because I’m pissed…at IDIOTS like you who think that such a comparison is valid.
“Good Germans” went along because if they didn’t they were killed or simply “disappeared”.
To even THINK that comparing that to this is equivalent is beyond the pale.
You really should go back and read books like the “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”. The vast majority of Germans did not know about the camps or any of the other atrocities done in their name. Most of them simply wanted to see their country from under the yoke of massive debt from the big war. They could have easily found out in many cases but that would have been unpatriotic. Thus the phrase “The Good German”. There were plenty of Germans that did not knowingly participate in evil acts.
If you think our lightening war in Iraq was demonstrably better than Hitler “reclaiming” Poland via the same means then you missed the part where the rest of the world did nothing in both cases.
I meant to say that almost 800,000 are killed annually, That doesn’t include those harmed but not killed!
“Obama didn’t sell out to LIEberman. The fix was in to let LIEberman take the heat off the president and give him an excuse. You really think that they did not expect this?”
Your right.
We haven’t quite lost this engagement yet. Lot of things can happen between now and the time this thing slimes its way back to the floor of the House and Senate. There are more than a few engagements on the horizon and once we shake ourselves free of the current sibling strife we’ll only be stronger.
Never. Give. Up.
Take a pill. You are going to blow an artery.
People who overreact to their objects of worship being properly called “Good Germans” often do have blood pressure and stroke danger issues.
the game has is just beginning Mainer
most of the points you state will be rip out of the bill by the GOP.
What progressives must do now is make the weak Dems in Congress wear this Bill around their Necks.
The opportunity for real Progressives, is to plan to put up as many Primary Challengers as Possible against NEOLIBERAL Dems.
We must use this CRAPPY BILL to put real Progressives in Congress.
Progressives did not fail, we got HOPE A DOPE! By Barack Obama and Rahm.
Now it is time to fight back.
Bernie Sanders let the hat out of bag, the only people who won here, is Health Insurance companies and BIG Pharma.
the other HUGE OPPORTUNITY REAL PROGRESSIVES CANDIDATES HAVE is to run ADs
against the white house and dems who voted against drug importation.
If NEOLIBERAL DEMS want to bite the hands that feeds them, it is time to let them STARVE.
I’m sick of Jane’s and FDL’s carping. A glass half full is better than you guys could ever accomplish. Is that what’s bothering you really? Why do you make it all about you? Why not make it about the many millions of people who need help who WILL GET HELP?!
Keep working for change, for sure, but keep your Cassandra doomsaying to yourselves. Put a cork in it, please.
Lawrence O’Donnell is right, most importantly, this bill will give liberalism a very bad name.
the crushing stupidity of team obama is that obama gets tagged as a “socialist” without America’s needy acquiring any of the benefits of socialism – just the opposite, and to boot, socialism is cemented as a pejorative without most people even knowing what it is. A win-win-win for republicans.
Just to be clear because perhaps you may not have read it before. When Hitler became Chancellor he took 90% of the vote. He was a very popular leader. That situation does not compare to ours but the phrase is not as loaded as you seem to think, unless it is simply that you despise Germans.
where is it written, “the will of the people must be subverted to the profit and greed of the wealthy and corporate?”
okay, so this is a start; now the real work begins for we progressives. public financing of all elections, ending the 60-vote super-majority filibuster, giving to the dscc just to get anyone elected with a “d” by their names regardless of their principles; and never, and i mean never, trust anyone whose actions do not back up their words!
Tears for Christmas. But no surprise. It’s like the final passing of a loved one who’s been terminal for some time. But even that may be optimistic, for after this brief holiday intermission this horror show will continue toward its nightmarish climax. And that will be followed by a long and grinding anticlimax. The civilized world must be wretching as I wretch when I see or, God forbid, hear these shrieking sociopaths who have taken over the discourse in this “great nation” which was built on the noble traditions of slavery and genocide.
It goes further than that. You cannot ignore the second have of the “primary every loser Dem”. The second part is that if your primary challenger doesn’t make it, you do NOT robotically go on to vote FOR the loser Dem simply because s/he ostensibly has a “D” by their name on the ballot. That “D” is totally worthless, totally meaningless.
You support to the utmost your primary challenger. If your challenger wins, then you do your utmost to see them win election. If your challenger loses the primary, then you do NOT help the winner get re-elected.
60 spineless Senators + 1 indifferent President + tens of millions of dollars in industry influence = one of the blackest days in Congressional history.
Jon,
Thanks for your posts. Always informative, and spot-on.
I don’t worship Obama. Never have. I knew what I was voting for when I pulled the lever.
But the constant belief that we have to take a wrecking ball to the house to get rid of the termites gets a bit wearing.
Mr. Hope Mr. Hope this is what have become from you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIfDc8pIJ54
Nope. Wouldn’t it just be easier to move on?
I think it is simply wrong to attack this president before the health care bill goes to conference and we see what the final bill will look like.
What you might not realize you are helping the Republicans when you do this.
Do I like the present bill? NO
If you go over every major bill passed in the congress from Social Security to Civil Rights,they were not perfect and had to be re-visited.
Stop acting like cry babies because you didn’t get what you wanted out of the senate bill
If you must attack anyone go after the obstructionist Republicans and Democrats.
Obama is not God.What do you want him to do? Go in the senate and hold a gun on people like Nelson and Lieberman and make them co-operate
Is there anything else people want to call me?
So far I have racist, troll, tool, idol worshiper, “Good German”, fool, idiot…I mean, if you’re going to slime my name you might as well do it all at once instead of piecemeal.
Obama IS a socialist, just not the type that is usually meant by that moniker. He is a “National Socialist” because he is absolutely devoted to the idea of melding government power with corporate power. That is “fascism” by definition. That is “National Socialism” by definition.
At least with lefty socialism, the PEOPLE get benefits as partners in everything. We don’t have that with Obama the National Socialist. HE benefits and so do his cronies and buddies in corporate offices. That’s it. The rest of us are expected to shoulder the burden of keeping them in champagne.
Help in four years and than no help soon after because this huge corporate giveaway is simply not sustainable. How many years do you think something so wasteful can last before the “entitlement cutters” get at it like they did welfare.
I think we’re just wasting our energy. These folks have their minds made up.
true, true; however, we still retain the vote! the corporate and special interests can only win when we are fooled, taken in or manipulated. thank you dear bumbling, dangerous, il-informed gwb, “fool me once shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me!”
I’ll bite: Pencil neck.
Just joking. Think I’ll go watch the neighbors eat worms on TV. Hey, pass the Cheetos, would ya.
Obama could have gotten Lieberman without any concessions. He could have strong-armed the bastard. Taken away all of his highway money. Threatened to withdraw federal funding in countless ways. That’s what Presidents do to get the support they need. But not Obama.
This will probably pass. What it amounts to is an increase in the percentage of our GNP devoted to healthcare- this could lead to improved healthcare if we sustain that percentage- but from a financial point of view its bad news. Our goal rather than crying over spilt milk is to be there when the next crisis hits. The wingers will try to cut care or ratchet up costs and penalties- we have to be there with the cheaper alternative- Medicare for all, cutting out the middle man. Lieberman types will be oh so worried about the deficit. That’s when we have the best chance to get the American people on our side. This bill is very similar in its path to “typical” Democratic solutions. Throw money at it making sure that the “right” corps. get larded up to hell with cost concerns. It puts the onus on the Repubs. to come to the table for real because of costs. They wouldn’t want to control military costs, after all.
Yes, but Hitler despised the communists and socialists.
He and is followers took over a failed farmer’s union in part to give socialists a bad name but mostly because it was the easiest way to get on the most ballots. He hated socialists and augmentative intellectuals almost as much as Jews and the weak and infirm. If he were in control things would be a bit more negative.
I prefer corporatism because it is clearer and less loaded with baggage.
Corporatism is the belief that the needs of the corporation are more important than the needs of the state or the individuals with in it. Not trying to talk you out if it but corporatist just feels more accurate.
You may have the answer what PROGRESSIVE ISSUE HAS BARACK OBAMA FOUGHT FOR?
Trillion dollar Bank Bail Out? not progressive
Trillion dollar Insurance Bail Out? not progressive
Afghan and Iraq war escalations? not progressive
(yes we all know the troops come home in 2011, Oh and by the way that is an election year)
What has made anyone stop and say, you know BUSH would not have done that.
While I can’t speak for others, I thought you were looking for an honest rational debate about the subject.
If you can point to where I said those things I’ll be happy to retract the inaccurate parts.
But isn’t it “fool me twice… can’t get fooled again?”
Not you. Just this site in general over the last couple weeks, and I gave up on looking for “rational debate” on this subject a long time ago.
It’s been given over to both sides becoming entrenched in their views of reality, and raining fire down upon those who disagree.
Fair question.
The type of bill that we ended up with in the stimulus debate, the financial reform debate, the climate change debate, and the health care debate were always unknowns, given the cast of characters in both houses.
If you think it’s the result that has us angered over Obama, then you’re mistaken. It’s the process. What we wanted out of him was for him to fight for and represent the things he so elequently laid out in his campaign. And had he fought for those things, we still might have ended up with this bill (I really doubt it, but that’s another discussion).
But the fact is: At each of these “debates” thus far, not only has he NOT fought for the progressive side of the issue, he has actively fought against the progressive side, himself or from his office with Rahm. His actions prove his words were hollow.
And as far as Jane and FDL are concerned, the “Public Option” wasn’t what we wanted. Jane doesn’t want the “Public Option.” Jane, and most of us here, support Single Payer. But Jane tried to act responsibly and pragmatically. “Single Payer doesn’t have the votes” we were told. “Public Option” is the better compromise.
OK. She supported it. Fought for it. Fundraised for it. Whipped for it. And then when the Public Option was taken out, along with nearly every real plank that had a chance of reigning in the unchecked abusive power of the health insurance industry, and an individual mandate was kept (meaning we were mandated to purchase insurance from these same abusive companies rather than at least having a choice of giving our money to the government), then, AND ONLY THEN, did Jane change gears and work for the bill’s defeat. After every damned compromise we had made were gone, THEN she worked against.
And for that, she’s accused to requiring “too much purity”???? WTF?
I hope you are right. I got to tell ya – I am really discouraged. Between this piece of garbage bill written by the health care insurance lobby for the health care insurance lobby, and Obama denying that he every campaigned on the Public Option I am about ready to join the Libertarians. Leave us not forget kicking women to the curb by sucking up to Nelson and the Roman Catholic bishops, not to mention that idiot Stupak. It is almost as if Obama believes that if he turns his back on the Left the Right will come to love him and vote for him. That kind of cynicism could have only come from the mind of Rohm Emanuel. Once again, I got to tell ya – I don’t think I have every come to distrust a public official more in a shorter period of time.
Democrats will rue the day this is passed if it stays in it’s present form. But beyond that, establishing prima facia mandates to private corporations with no control over costs? Fines if you don’t buy “their insurance”. Can anyone with a straight face argue that this serves “the people”. We have truly lost our democracy–it is so clear that it smacks one in the face.
Thank you!
This is an industry bailout disguised as a public service. The health-care industry wanted to make sure that it was compensated both before the dollar collapsed and the industry itself collapsed under the weight of its own bureaucracy.
What a resounding success for our Corporate State.
Merry Xmas Jane and everybody at FDL!
That’s exactly the kind of discussion I like. I wish people would settle down, focus on what’s being said about HC, BOTH SIDES and quit getting so angry OVER NOTHING.
PEACE everyone.
If there were a system here, like there are at other sites, where you could look up a commenters posting history, then this would be easy to spot.
But alas…
Then leave if you feel that way…maybe head over to KOS. There’s MANY there this morning that agree with you.
I meant to thank you too Jon. Another great piece.
I understood they mostly did barter/in-kind stuff, because paper money and coins were scarce.
I agree with every word.
Pretty eloquent for an old fat guy! Good on ya.
Turn down your rhetoric a notch.
I understood what was being said: that they were following orders, whether those orders were good, bad, or illegal.
You can find the door on your own.
We are not going to worship any president, and especially not one who has demonstrated that promises are only valuable before the votes are cast. After that, they’re just words on the wind.
You can’t expect to waltz on to a site where people have been following an issue closely for months, where the various narratives and ploys have been relentlessly deconstructed, where predictions have been made and been tested repeatedly, and where as a result of all this a strong case has been made for what has happened and what will happen, you can’t come here, present old arguments as if they were new, and expect much traction.
howdy selise!
have good holidays
same to all firedogs!
I think organizing and collective action is our one way to influence events. And exerting what financial power we may have.
First we should gauge our strenght. We should determine how many people take the same position we hold; that what has been achieved is a disastrous massive transfer of public wealth to private insurers and drug makers under government duress, with virtually very little in return.
We could do this by simply determining how many in this blog would be willing to take specific measures to undermine this HCR effort as is reflected in the Senate bill. And then act.
A list of possible courses of action needs to be debated and adopted, as if this were a strike. The goal would be to undermine the effort to impose the punitive provisions in the bill. Ultimately this would require the witholding of funds on which this proposed bill relies. Acting in concert this strategy would work and even the threat of such action would yield the results we want.
For instance we could refuse to comply with the mandate if one were in a position to do so. Or to withold paying premiums for one cycle, or transfering funds out of large banks into community banks, or passing initiatives for the recall of elected officials, or whatever other measures we could engage in collectively.
The government as now configured is irretievably commited to sacrificing the public welfare to the gain of large private concerns. We should face up to that fact and react accordingly. Our efforts should not be directed to influencing the government but rather on acting on our own behalf.
Nicely said.
I would add that the new theme presented by many newly converted supporters of change-without-a-difference that what Krugman, Harkin and Kennedy’s ghost want is all the reason there is to follow the herd is particularly distasteful.
“Sure I drew my line in the sand but that was yesterday before the experts told me I was wrong” is not a useful position to start an argument. Equally acknowledging that the bill is bad but needs to be supported or the lobbyists will stop paying their bribes to incumbents is not on firm footing either.
Well, at least we know where everybody stands now. I won’t be calling myself a democrat anymore.
One win, yes, more affordable health care, yes, what a negative, sad article on a bill that is a step forward.
Question: Since when did everyone become so optimistic about America?
We have not been able to expand healthcare in anyway for the past what, 50-60 years? Everyone bought into the Iraq war with no question. The Bush tax cuts were just great. America is a messed up country. Sara Palin could have been VP! Everyone who is pissed off we didn’t get single payer must have just woken up in this country.
The deal with the devil in this case requires pay out to insurance companies to get everyone insured. Sucks but that is how America works. Hopefully we get the good deal in the end and they don’t. If you don’t like it, your best bet is to become a Libertarian and try to kill the government, or move to someplace better, because this is as Liberal as this place gets!
That is only true of the people in washington, America is made of good people who are being fucked over by their government.
The NY Times today alludes to this as
Hard to argue with that.
If this were just about losing single-payer I’d probably be only a bit disappointed. This more like watching the last canary in the coal mine die.
Libertarian, like Ron Paul? Ron Paul the guy who supported a Christian supremacist for President, wants our legal system based on Christian values and wants to completely destroy public education?
Most of the Libertarians are either dopers or more in love with corporations than even Obama lets on to. No help there.
Well, that didn’t take long:
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/73495-republican-sen-hatch-cites-liberal-blogger-in-healthcare-speech
Well-known progressive sympathizer Orin Hatch quoting Jane on the floor of the Senate as a prop.
No worries – I’m sure she won’t be similarly used by Norquist.
“This bill will give liberalism a very bad name.”
This was sealed in 2006. Robert Greene predicted it:
Remember: it is not winning or losing that matters here, but how you win or lose. Winning the house in 2006 with the Napoleonic-suicide strategy will prove a Pyrrhic victory–the Democrats will become more smug, more blue state than ever. They will remain locked in tactical hell. They will go down in flames in 2008, or serve as a mere waiting post for 2012, as Jimmy Carter did for Reagan.
I think the progressive left should have encouraged a bi-partisan spirit of resistance. Obviously the left and right disagree on why the bill should have failed, but that should not have stopped the left from standing with the right.
Insurance lobbies my ass. These were cherry picked corps who would favor Dem polls. If the insurance lobby was so powerful, it would have ended this months ago.
Included in this Democrat bill were life support measures for companies who would have gone down in flames.
“Change” got sold.
“This bill will give liberalism a very bad name.”
This was sealed in 2006. Robert Greene predicted it:
Remember: it is not winning or losing that matters here, but how you win or lose. Winning the house in 2006 with the Napoleonic-suicide strategy will prove a Pyrrhic victory–the Democrats will become more smug, more blue state than ever. They will remain locked in tactical hell. They will go down in flames in 2008, or serve as a mere waiting post for 2012, as Jimmy Carter did for Reagan.
I think the progressive left should have encouraged a bi-partisan spirit of resistance. Obviously the left and right disagree on why the bill should have failed, but that should not have stopped the left from standing with the right.
Insurance lobbies my ass. These were cherry picked corps who would favor Dem polls. If the insurance lobby was so powerful, it would have ended this months ago. Included in this Democrat bill were life support measures for companies who would have gone down in flames.
“Change” got sold.
Well we will just see how happy you will be when the Republicans take over the house and senate.
I least I will have a clear conscience that I didn’t help them get re-elected.
I agree, Libertarians are living in a fantasy land.
OMG. Is it possible to get her to a foreign country? One that does not have a barbaric medical system? This terrible bill won’t even kick in till 2014. Good Luck.
AN HISTORIC… HAPPY HOLIDAY !!! For the 47 million Americans struggling without access to quality health care, millions forced to stand in long lines for hours while sick at traveling make-shift free clinic for medical care; like a third-world country… I’m reminded of the imperfection of previous, now historic bills/laws that have been passed throughout our country’s history. The Civil Rights Act, Womens Rights, Child Labor Laws, Fair Housing, Voters Rights Act just to name a few, all of which are still being ‘tweaked’ toward perfection to this day. But despite their flaws, in these monumental cases, Americans are thankful that the opposition was unable to ” Kill The Bill “.
Article by Greg Jones
Blacks4Barack
National Director
” My Health Care Reform FLIP-FLOP…I FEEL GOOD ! ”
http://blacks4barack.blogspot.com/2009/12/my-health-care-reform-flip-flop-i-feel.html
So your rule is that if the Democrats do something massively wrong and contrary to their promises the good soldier shuts up and protects his betters?
Neither Jane nor anyone else on the left forced the Democrats to put lobbyist cash above the needs of the country. Pointing out the mistakes is the only way to fix it. Pretending that you haven’t been stabbed in the back does not make the knife go away.
“Individualists of the world, UNITE!”
-Ayn Rand
LOL
Two considerations:
1) Under this plan, could I drop my current $6,000-a-year insurance, pay $750 a year in penalties, then when I contract something serious, sign up for insurance under the no-pre-existing condition exclusion?
2) Will the states be able to compete with their own single-payer programs? If so, this is the way Canada ultimately achieved universal health care, province by province.
I hate to tell you but this is a good thing. Conservatives citing progressives for their own ends is a given. But we have goals too. The Democrats have set progressives up to take the fall for a bad bill. It won’t be Democrats, especially Blue Dogs, are to blame, but us. So getting conservatives on the record noting our opposition is a positive. Is this topsy turvy? Absolutely. But let’s be clear here. It is the Democrats who created this situation by pushing such a bad bill. And that is what is so odd about all this. They didn’t do their job. We note this. And we are consequently the ones at fault. Not likely and not if we can help it.
Let’s give credit where credit is due. If the Democrats lose next year, it will be their own damn fault.
Lot of koslings and Obamabots living in a fantasyland, too.
They deserve it, and they’ll get it.
I don’t feel it’s inappropriate to raise this issue, because he used his mom’s cancer throughout the campaign to sell himself. But would Stanley Ann Durham’s struggle with the insurance companies during her cancer fight be improved with this bill? How, specifically?
Great, wonderful. So now you’ve proven your purity. I’m sure the GOP will return the favor and support whatever progressive measure comes up next. After all, it’s all quid-pro-quo, right?
This is politics. You take what you can get and you try and fix it down the road. No amount of crying, nashing of teeth or rending of garments was going to get a pure public-option bill through the Senate. It’s a numbers game, and unfortunately we didn’t have the numbers. You make the best deal you can.
And this bullshit of challenging Bernie Sanders because he voted for it is pure lunacy.
Say what you want, but they did what they had to do (Reid, Rahm, the president). You wanna blame someone? BLAME that traitor Lieberman, Nelson, Landreu and the rest of the “so-called” conservative democrats. Lieberman should be removed from his committee seat and the Democratic caucus.
THEY ARE THE REASON THERE IS NO PUBLIC OPTION….period. Merry XMAS
Bernie Sanders sold out his purported principles, plainly. Why bother with him?
This might be improved in conference if Nancy Pelos talks with Olympia Snowe, revisits the trigger and makes a deal. Pelosi is the last hope of the people. Dump Lieberman in a Snowe bank.
Big win for progressives, real progressives. Wooooo hooooooo. Finally, America shows it really does care about health care for everyone. We have a long way to go to make it better, but this is totally awesome. I’ve been grinning from ear to ear since it passed. Cheers to President Obama for passing the most sweeping reform of health care in our history. For those of us who care about people, this was a huge victory. It is the start of the reversal of the “every man for himself, I got mine, you get yours” mentality that started during the Reagan era and has permeated our politics since then. We have turned a corner and America is returning to the compassionate country it used to be. Woooooo hoooooooooooo. :) :) :)
Pelosi’s a stooge, like Dodd and Frank, don’t pin your hopes on her. The progressive caucus are the only ones left to roll. Will they stand for us?
That’s not of much use.
Obama Rocks! The best president ever! I can’t wait to see what he does in the next 3 years, he’s done an awesome job in his first year and it’s only going to get better. Woooo hoooooo, :) :) :)
Hope you’re right.
Well then why bother with anyone in the entire Senate?
I mean, Bernie Sanders is about as far left as you get in there and now everyone’s lining up to kick him in the shins. Anybody to the left of him wouldn’t get elected, and that’s the God’s honest truth.
At this point I don’t bother with anyone in the senate. I would ask you, “Why bother with anyone in the senate?”. Bernie Sanders has been hooting that he’s ‘a real progressive in the senate!’ so long that he believes his ego in spite of his actions. He’s a cartoon, it’s just pitiable.
Hope you’re right. But, I suspect you live in a pretty Progressive area.
Jon and Jane might find this interesting: Months ago at a DSCC/DCCC reception, of all places, Obama railed repeatedly against the insurance industry, and then said this: “We are closer than we’ve ever been to passing health insurance reform — closer than we’ve ever been.”
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president-dsccdccc-reception
Today, I just received the most dishonest DSCC fund raising ad I’ve ever seen. It refers to health care reform only, not a peep about insurance reform.
http://www.dscc.org/obamaspeech?petition_KEY=187&track=SEM-G-C-HC-HR-2
“…stand with Obama..”
“…take a stand for progress..”
And this, the biggest tail/tale of all: “…tell the Right to stop playing games.”
It’s not over yet. We can still make a difference if we do not give up. Progressives are making things better. Certain dangerous jobs will be exempted from the
CadillacChevy tax. Also, The administration has said they will try to pass pharmaceutical re-importation after the current HRC bill. What’s next?It’s not a question of purity but preserving one’s credibility, and that means paying attention to the facts and the evidence no matter where they fall. It is you Obama loyalists who are in lalaland. It is your purity that is intact. However your credibility is going to be hammered, and deservedly so.
“The administration has said they will try to pass pharmaceutical re-importation after the current HRC bill.”
Yes, but did they campaign on it? lol.
There is a difference between being a political realist and an Obama loyalist. I’m the former, not the latter.
Please try to learn that before shooting off your damn fool mouth.
please, please wake up perris. The republicans did not trick Obama. As Russ Feingold said, “this is exactly the bill that Obama wanted”. What do you think he arranged behind closed doors with the Insurance CEO’s and Big Pharma? Wake up- he recently KILLED a proposed drug importation bill himself before it could be voted upon. He and Rahm are the puppeteers now. Obama is a fugazi, an imposter. I was sickened that so many of my friends fell for his scam and voted for him in the primaries. We progressives are so screwed with a prez who is in bed with the Banksters and other corporazzi.
Political Realist = Settles for whatever he can get, old, tired of fighting, part of the problem :(
Perfectly written.
Great! I am too! That’s why Single Payer should’ve never been taken off the table. By a 58%-38% margin in a national poll, Americans favor Medicare for All.
It’s the pols in Washington that aren’t living in the political reality.
How droll.
I’m not tired of fighting. I just know that this is a fight that we can’t win. We don’t have the votes, and Obama could have twisted arms until they broke clean from their sockets and we still wouldn’t have the fuckin’ votes.
The days of LBJ are over. Have been for a very long time. Expcecting different is building castles in the sky.
The days of Obama, sellout senators, and miserable koslings are over, too.
I now have 413 day until Medicare for ME. Then I can tell the ruinously expensive, ever-obstructive CIGNA to kiss my 65 yr old Irish ass.
What part of “not an Obama loyalist” didn’t get through your head?
Not a kosling. Not a Obamabot. Just someone who can actually read the handwriting on the wall.
I hear you. Loud and clear. It’s just this issue that we disagree on. Nothing wrong with that. I’d bet if someone polled us on 10 others, we’ll agree on 9 of ‘em.
You’re not the enemy. The right wing, and elite rich, of this country are the enemy to all working class and poor folks. I hope we never forget that.
Yes, weak. Compromising. Irrelevant. Sorry to be blunt.
Boy, I don’t agree with this. Molly Ivins used to tell a story about some wag who had heard enough about how bad Texas legislators are. He responded: “You think these legislators are bad? You oughta see their constituents!”
There are a lot of fine folks in the good ole’ USA. But there is probably an equal number of raging assholes, IMHO.
At least we’ll have wolves in wolve’s clothing.
Vermont is not Texas.
Well, you’ll be happy to know that all those premiums paid to Cigna weren’t wasted. No sir, CIGNA’s CEO leaves Dec 31, 2009 and will be receiving over $70 million as a parting gift.
I’m sure he remembered to send you at least a X-Mas card, didn’t he?
No, you’re not sorry. Not one damn bit.
“But there is probably an equal number of raging assholes, IMHO.”
___
You mean, e.g., like those from the ungovernable Tribal Regions of U.S. OrlyTaitzistan? GlennBeckistan? SeanHannistan? FoxTeaBagistan? Inhofistan?
If this reconcilliation group combined bill must go through a floor vote in both houses, and the Senate will have another cloture vote before the bill can be voted on the floor, how can the bill be “improved” in conference? How would a significantly improved bill emerging from reconcilliation get past another Senate cloture vote? Can’t the same clowns hold the bill up in the same way, complaining that their deals and agreements were cut from the reconciled bill so they won’t vote for cloture to advance that version to the floor?
Yes.
The Senate bill allows charging people over 55yrs old 3x as much in premiums as young people. It outlaws denying coverage for pre-existing conditions but does not stipulate that those premiums will not be higher. There are no subsides for people making >$43,000 per year. How many people who make $45,000 per year in this economy have an extra $1000-$1200 a month for health insurance premiums. And they will be fined if they don’t pay.
Yes and Hatch’s people will condemn him for using the words of some commie pinko woman from a “commie blog.” What they don’t understand, and neither do you, is that alliances of convenience happen all the time. Most European gov’ts, with multi-party systems, operate in this manner almost constantly.
This bill is dangerous to the Republic. It needs to be defeated by all means possible. Jane is using a tactic that is unfamiliar to modern Americans but can be quite effective. The movie ‘Sicko’ presented corporate memos that demeonstrated that the elite’s only fear is “the peasant’s” recognizing a common enemy and joining forces against it.
What a line!!
Oops, next box . .
As long as we retain a predominantly for-profit actuarial model for covering medical risk, all of this remains essentially a zero-sum whack-a-mole game.
Here is the last paragraph, again. This needs to be fought, not excused.
“This Senate bill is not a step forward for progressivism, it is a step backward. It is part of the transformation of all-important public social responsibilities into a privatized profit- making machine that lives off of government money won through a corrupt cycle of lobbying, campaign donations, and corporate giveaways. This bill does not advance the progressive movement, it just uses its name and mantras to justify a huge industrial bailout. In the long run, I see this bill as discrediting the progressive movement, not advancing it. This problem is not that this bill is just small reform, it is unworkable reform doomed to fail.”
Right on, Hugh.
And I wasn’t sorry when I said that, you’re right. I’m a bit pissed off currently. I do apologize.
What?? YOU’RE the one demanding purity. HOW DARE Jane speak to the unclean Right in a gesture of common cause over a few issues. SACRILIGE!!!
Yeah you’re right, we never could win this fight, and the fights on Climate Change, Financial Regulation reform, campaign finance reform, the military industrial complex, ect ect… Lets just settle for whatever crumbs the left can get at this point. Obama, change we can belive in… if you’re a fcking idiot.
Are you prepared to pay 20% out of pocket for all of your medical care? Because Medicare only pays 80%. That’s why I just signed up to change my Medicare Advantage plan to Cigna–they were the cheapest. I will only have to pay $500/hospital visit regardless of how many days I’m in. Last time I paid $875 for the first 5 days and the remaining 3 days were picked up by my Medicare Advantage plan–Healthnet at that time.
I’m afraid you are in for a sad and profound disappointment. And please, pass me some of whatever it is you are taking. It must be pleasant.
Yep.
And the sad thing is that even if we had won the ultimate prize and gotten rid of that totally unnecessary for-profit middle man paying the bills (single payer), we would still have some heavy lifting to do in this country’s health care system.
Because changing how we pay for it is only get us so much savings (significant, and worth fighting for to be sure), but ultimately there will be other beasts to be tamed.
The fact that we not only didn’t take any step whatsoever in that direction, but more or less cemented and ensured this totally unnecessary for-profit middle man stays in the health care mix, is one of the reasons this bill is such a failure. At least with a public option (and I’m no fan of the House bill because of it’s weak assed PO), but with a really significant PO, that dynamic could begin to change.
And the sad thing is it might’ve changed rather a good deal more painlessly with a strong PO. It’s entirely possible the for-profit health insurance companies, beginning to see their stranglehold on Americans ease, might have, just maybe, been able to come up with some new way to augment their business model and lessen the pain. With Single Payer, it’s gonna be a swift “goodbye” if that ever gets passed.
We’ll never really know now though.
*sighs*
What do I have to do, skywrite it?
NOT AN OBAMA LOYALIST! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR SKULL!
Oh, and calling people “fucking idiots” DOES NOT help you win the argument. It makes them very pissed.
[Edited by Moderator: this blog does not allow advocating or threating violence. Please play nice.]
Huzzah!! Buttercup!
Get your facts straight. You pay for Part-B coverage (outpatient) and Rx coverage (Part-D), neither of which then provide you with 100% coverage. Part-A (acute care hospitalization), though, is inclusive. Providers cannot bill the patient for what Medicare doesn’t pay the Provider.
None of any this is perfect (and all of it is likely to worsen). But, once I reach 65 I will be better off than I am now under CIGNA. By far.
Having worked twice as a health care analyst for the Medicare QIO in my state, and, having served as my father’s legal guardian and my mother’s POA since 2004 (both of them Medicare benes), I am thoroughly aware of how it works.
And:
No, but I’ll bet Vermont has its share of uninformed, Right- leaning jerks. I know New hampshire certainly does. And Maine!
HA! Yes, those people.
Do some simple Big Picture math. Divide $2.5 trillion (rough annual estimate of the annual U.S. NHE) by a population of 307 million. That’s roughly $8,143 per capita.
Now, NHE is not, nor will it ever be, distributed flatly (“per capita”), nor “normally” (bell curve), but in a highly skewed allocation. Half the population spends nil in any given year on health care, while 5% of the population accounts for roughly half. The rest of us are somewhere (transiently) in the remaining also distributionally lumpy stratum.
I mused on this problem back in July.
Have a Very Aetna Christmas, Harry Reid!
You ask the right question. It will be tinkered with and “improved” superficially, and all will hail it as a win and then passed. Future improvements? Not Bloody Likely!
And those on the liberal/left who are praising this steaming pile of corporate turds are well informed? Those of us who voted for Obama expecting a modicum of liberalism are how much smarter than the “tea baggers” you so readily denigrate?
But Part A only pays 80% of covered services. The patient is responsible for the other 20%. Unless they have a supplemental insurance plan (Medigap).
Is it possible that what you’re referring to is a state benefit? Maybe somehow your state automatically chips in the other 20%?? I’m in Virginia, and on Medicare, and can assure you it only pays 80%. The patient is responsible for 20%. Which is why I’ve been aggresively reminding folks that when they talk about Medicare for All as a solution, make sure they mean IMPROVED Medicare for All. Because plain old Medicare Part A isn’t all that great. 20% of a major hospital bill is just as unaffordable to a lot of folks as 100% of the bill is.
Copy that.
Two words. “Regulatory Capture.” Google it.
More like capture the government so that there is no regulation to speak of, at least not without the guarantee of a captive customer base for the gouging…
I just took a peak at those koslings over there, their threads look IDENTICAL to freeper threads… Never thought I’d see that.
edit:sorry Ann, this wasn’t supposed to be attached to your post, just in general. I screwed up.
But still, freepers. Complete with howling, gnashing, and rending of garments!
Nope. Part-A is inclusive.
I could show you an example of the inch-thick stack of itemization detail of my Ma’s repeated acute care hospitalizations in 2007. There’s the “retail” billed amount per px and dx and med, and then what Medicare actually paid the hospital (probably ~30 cents on the putative “dollar”). My mother was not billed for any of the difference. Has nothing to do with the state (I dealt with her stuff down in Florida prior to moving here here in 2007).
Pity those so trapped in prisons of their own minds who cannot assess developing information and use that to adapt their positions accordingly.
Reminds me of that guy in Khao Lak Thailand who was so mesmerized by the oncoming tsunami that he stood on the beach and was killed when he was hit by a 20′ wall of water.
No need. I know what Regulatory Capture is. But thanks anyway.
Yet for you the two just happen to coincide despite all the evidence to the contrary. And re that evidence, I keep an Obama scandals list just as I kept a Bush scandals list. You can click on my name and the link will take you there. If you look at the totality of what Obama has done (i.e. forget the speeches), he has been extremely consistent in being for the status quo, corporatist, and Blue Dog. It is taking the healthcare debate out of the larger context of the Obama Presidency that allows arguments like this is the best that we could get, Obama is really on our side, etc., etc. The problem is as I said that this isn’t tenable when you look at his overall record to date (and it already is quite extensive). There are many areas, such as DOJ legal briefs, where Obama could have taken progressive positions without recourse to Congress. In fact, many of these legal positions are as bad or worse than what we saw under Bush.
You are correct though that I do think you are quite likely, despite your protestations, an Obamabot, because even with all the evidence before you, I think you will try to rationalize or deny it away. There is a time for plausible denial but for this President and this Presidency it is already effectively closed. The options remaining are to stand with the evidence, embrace your corporatist Blue Doggedness, or imitate the Bushbots and deny everything to the bitter end.
Badass.
Marcos, you’re fighting the wrong battle on the wrong battlefield with this comment. My statement followed a number of back and forths I had with Transparait on the character and nature of Americans in general. No animosity, just some chat.
You are understandably frustrated with the way this whole health care calamity is concluding. I know. The “vagueries of the political process” just did’nt work out. I too am chagrined to see so many Progs rolling over for this dark and dangerous bill. Almost makes one want to . . . screech. No?
It bothers you that the right and the left are calling a shit sandwich for what it is, does it.
Not only that, but without some help in covering my prescriptions, scripts would cost me between $700-$800/mo. I don’t know about you, but I couldn’t afford that. In fact, that’s more than my mtg. pmt. Also, I pay $40/specialist visit due to severe emphysema about every 2 months and the same for a cardiologist. I need insurance to cover the gap, and Medicare Advantage Plans can be $0premium/mo.
No, I do not deny it or rationalize it away.
This is the best we were going to get. If you don’t like it, then tough shit. That’s reality. That’s the way the game is played. But because you don’t like the outcome, you want to kick the table over.
If you think that Obama or anyone else could have gone in and busted some skulls and forced single payer, then you’re a fucking lunatic. PERIOD.
And I stand by that statement, and anyone who doesn’t like it can jump in a lake for all I care.
Hey mods, can something be done about Spotts1701 for berating and constantly shooting off his foul mouth using personal attacks at FLD regulars who are speaking in all good intent per FDL standards?
Well, I’m not at all sure what’s going on in your mother’s case, but I’m pretty sure that Part A has lots and lots of copays. It’s usually 20%, but it is different for hospital stays (the cost of the room). The Docs seen and procedures done while at the hospital are usually the same 20% though.
But, for 2008 (most recent one I found a link too, there must be the 2009 version on-line somewhere, I just am too much of an idiot to find it).
But for 2008 Hospital Stays with Medicare Part A only, the Patient must pay (PDF):
Days 1 – 60: $1,024 deductible
Days61 – 90: $256 coinsurance each day
Days91 – 150: $512 coinsurance each day
Beyond 150 days: all costs
You really really don’t want to be in the hospital more than 60 days.
Oh, so it’s okay for people to call me foul names. But when I respond in kind I’m to be modded?
Double standard much?
Wow.
OK. Well, I would probably agree that single payer wasn’t gonna happen. But I don’t believe this is the best we can get, even with the current group.
I’ll go jump in FireDogLake now.
And that’s one thin way we can still KILL THE BILL!
And force the Senate to start over, with 50 vote reconciliation.
Ok, sure, I’m dreamin . . . gotta have dreams . . .
For me, Eshoo and Stupak/Nelson have to go, and if no ROBUST PO, no anti trust exemption repeal, then no mandates.
Alas, House will cave, and the Senate version we have now is going to be the final bill Obama signs.
I think we have ample evidence to project this ending.
In addition to the premiums, they will also be charged huge co pays and deductibles. And as far as I know, caps have NOT been lifted . . . can anyone set me straight on caps? Have they been lifted, or are still in place for annual and lifetime?
I think, but someone else should probably confirm this, but I think the caps are back out with the Manager’s Amendment. Or, to be more precise, the loophole a Space Shuttle could’ve fit through has been removed.
But I haven’t looked at it myself. Going off memory from what I’ve read here. And my memory is flaky these days. *g*
EDIT: LOL, changed the “in” to an “out” as I typed too fast, and that’s a pretty big change!
Progressives erred in not linking the indivudal mandate to the public option earlier in the process.
I speak not of any others. The mods have their rules, they do well in what they do. If others are name calling with personal insults, I’m sure they will be handled as well.
Hugh pretty much covered it in one of his comments.
Most of the regulars in here, hundreds of them, have been going under, over, sideways up and down over this HCR thing since the first of the year if not earlier.
All sides, all arguements, all links, all articles, all bunk jive has been gone over with a fine tooth comb, and you come in here ranting without links, attributions or evidence for your positionings, and when refuted shout out invectives and personal insults.
So, I’m kinda with Hugh, and the regulars on this one. When you want to put up evidence and links and attributions for your positions we might take you seriously. We don’t think we have to point up links and attributions because it’s been done to death, and you can always do a site search for any point we make without a link.
Good luck to ya, I hope to see your thoughts with evidence, and hope you’ll stick around to debate the merits of your positions with what some of us in here believe . . . .
Yeh, my understanding was Reids Managers Amendment protected the caps, so they are in, again.
There’s a lot to be said for that look back . . . ammo for future activity I hope.
I’m sorry that I have offended. I shall go, because obviously I have reached the point at which I cannot argue this rationally and am left with just coarsening the dialogue.
The test is not that they’re better than what we have now. It is whether they are better than what we could have had if Harry Reid had been willing to do things like use reconciliation, or the nuclear option, or if the President had been willing to publically lead for a progressive bill rather than letting the special interests write the bill in Congress in the way that we did. The test is what we could still have if Progressives in the House had enough courage to say no to this bill and to take this back to the drawing board. You say:
I say: That’s not true. There are no enforcement mechanisms to speak of in this bill and the insurance companies will simply game the system and disobey the law and people with PCs still won’t be able to get insurance. Also, until 2014 those with PCs will have to go into a risk pool to get insurance, where the price of it can be up to 3 times the price of insurance for others like them. Since there are no subsidies until 2014, that insurance will be unaffordable for middle-class people and will only be avilable to the rich.
You then say:
And I say: That’s true, but what good will that do when there’s nothing in the law to compel Doctors and other providers to take Medicaid patients. Such patients can’t receive medical services now. So, why do you think this expansion will do anything for the people who have the “benefit.”
You next say:
I say: That’s true. So, let’s pass a nice little bill that does that. Not a gigantic structure that costs between $871B and $1.055T over 10 years.
You next say:
- Tens of thousands will get subsidies to buy insurance that previously they couldn’t afford
And I say: Most of them still won’t be able to afford it, but now will be forced to buy what they cannot afford. Consider, the average cost of insurance per family is now $13,375. At 10% per year premium increases we are looking at a cost of $19,582 in 2014, when the subsidies go into effect. The subsidies are not indexed to inflation, but increased costs will mean that the cost in 2019 will be $31,535 per family.
Marcy Wheeler did an analysis of what some family budgets would look like in 2014 assuming passage of the bill. Based on her analysis which admittedly sill lacks data needed to really answer the affordability question definitively; it seems pretty clear that this insurance will not be affordable to lower- and middle-middle-class people.
You go on with:
And I say: 1) Who’s going to enforce the patient’s bill of rights? Where’s the enforcement mechanism in the bill. Also, why not just pass a bill with a patient’s bill of rights. Why do we have to take this bill to gte a patient’s bill of rights?
And another “goodie”?
And I say: yes, there are community health centers funded at $1 Billion per year, roughly one percent of the cost of the bill, and they will provide needed primary care. But, again why can’t that just be passed without the mandates for the insurance companies?
And two other “goodies”
I agree that these are certainly useful, but, again why not just pass legislation that contains these. In short you’ve made a case for legislation that contains a whole bunch of “goodies.”
The problem is that you haven’t made a case for the goodies that won’t work due to lack of enforcement mechanisms and you won’t acknowledge the terrible mandates, and also what the House and Senate bills don’t do, like appreciably control insurance costs, ensure that care and insurance will be provided even if people can’t pay, put a stop to the fatalities, bankruptcies, and foreclosures due to lack of insurance as has been done in all other civilized countries, many much poorer than the United States. Finally, you won’t acknowledge a political reality, Namely that passing this bill takes the political presssure off health care reform for some time until people realize that this bill is doing nothing for them. That is a very heavy cost of the bill, and reason enough for progressives to kill it.
I’ve been pushing the message about this mandated, industry written junk insurance bill on Daily Kos for weeks. Go there and get blasted by the progressive enablers of corporate owned Obama & his Blue Dog buddies.
Very, very, well-put, OFG. It wasn’t Jane, who broke the deal between progressives and The White House. So, why should she adhere support the product of that broken deal now. To support a President who now lies to our faces directly?
Well, don’t know if you responded before I caught my error edited, but I think they’re out.
Originally, there was a loophole with wording something to the effect (again, memory is flaky) of “No unreasonable caps would be allowed.” Obviously one man’s “unreasonable” is an insurance companies “perfectly reasonable” so that loophole in effect allowed them to have annual caps. I THOUGHT (again, memory flaky), I read here that the loophole had been closed, and so caps are back out again.
But I might be misremembering all of this. I really hope someone else comes along and better answers your question.
The constitution does prohibit involuntary servitude.
This ignores the fact that some deals are worse than no deal at all. Our healthcare system is unsustainable. Almost everyone admits this. Yet Obamacare will not control costs and it is highly dubious that actual care will be improved for anyone except at the margins. At the same time millions will be required to buy insurance that they can’t use and insurance, drug, and medical interests will game the system much as they do now and make out like bandits despite the hoopla that somehow they will be reined in.
Your arguments are premised on the false assumption that Obamacare will make the system sustainable. There is simply no evidence for this view. In other words if healthcare were a ship it would be sinking. It doesn’t matter an iota if this is the “best” deal we could get if the ship still sinks.
Health inurance stocks reach 52-week high. Sounds like great reform coming. The private insurers are turning over a new leaf. No more rejecting claims, no co-pays & deductibles so high that even with “insurance”, you can’t use it. If we can’t agree on anything else, can we agree on this: Health care reform without at least a strong, robust public option is NOT real reform. This industry written bill will not have one. It is a hoax imposed temporarily(ripped to pieces by later legislatures)by a corporate owned, corrupted political system.
This blog sums it up
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/the-democrats-authoritari_b_402146.html
But when Obama lies, he smiles. I am now doing for corporate owned Obama what I did for 7-years to Bush, changing channels when he appears.
Benito would call it FASCISM. We are there. The corporations now effectively own both major parties. We need an Independent POTUS who will represent Main Street. Historical note: June of 1992, Ross Perot leads polls with 39%.
If any mods are reading.
I FORGOT to give the PDF warning at my post at 257.
Dammit, and I was just reminded of this a few days ago.
Don’t suppose you could delete it or add the pdf warning could you?
The fact that the outcome was expected is of course no surprise to anyone. The reason why it was preordained given the people involved is neverhteless an important bit of information. It helps to clarify in most people’s minds just where the interests of the government lies. And it is not with the American people by any measure.
Witht this outcome and information in hand you then need to determine what to do in response. The right response is to absorb the information you gained or had all along and see how best to respond.
That’s the point where we are now.We are not helpless to respond and we need to.
Thanks.
*nods to the heavens*
*g*
Sorry about forgetting.
LBJ could be an arm twister but it was not his only skill. He got the Civil Rights Act in 1964, then came back a year later and got the Voting Rights Act. If he had tried to get them both at the same time in 64 he might have failed to get either of them.
I don’t have a link but I think both lifelong and yearly caps are both out now.
Amazing how “the only bill a powerless Obama could get out of the dysfunctional Senate, taiulored to the preferences of the two most conservative members of the Democratic caucus, suddenly transformed into “95 percent of what Obama wanted” and “exactly the bill he campaigned on.” Could we please settle on a cover story, people?
I know how you feel. It’s becoming hard for me to listen to him too.
Actually, and unfortunately, they’ve been creating our political reality.
Well, obviously the system is by now structurally corrupt, a semi-plutocracy. At what point it becomes so corrupt that nothing or not much can or should be done from within? Those that see this as a very significant progressive win (quite largely because of appearances) after decades long streak of conservative wins belief that it will help in fostering a more progressive political climate, in getting more progressives elected, in getting the system more functional again. To me this is at least a clear and practical strategy. What is the alternative then? More decades of corruption, of uninterrupted conservative reign till a revolutionary moment comes and something completely different can be created? It just doesn’t seem very hopeful or very practical. Perhaps a divorce from Democrats is really needed for those that don’t any longer belief in gradual reform. A Socialist Worker’s Party, perhaps? And then the mensheviks and bolsheviks could battle for the mantle of purity within the pure party. What is the practical alternative to painfully slow, painfully ineffectual reform? What should be done?
Yeah “fine folks” who sit on their asses when the Bush administration elected to start an unnecessary and immoral war in Iraq. Hundreds of thousands dead, injured, millions displaced. While “fine folks” sat on their collective asses.