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I notice there is a diary up on Daily Kos attacking me for going on Fox & Friends. Unsurprisingly, it doesn’t say what I actually said:
In 2000, the Republicans passed Medicare Part D, and it had no negotiation for prescription drug prices. And then in 2006, when the Democrats took over Congress, the first thing they did was say “hey, we’re going to roll that back, we’re going to allow for [negotiation of] prescription drug prices to be passed. But now that they actually have the chance, they’re not doing it. And you’ve got people like Jeff Sessions on the floor of the Senate saying this is criminal, this deal is criminal, but he didn’t vote for it in 2000 or 2006 when he had the chance. So we’re sort of looking at a situation where people on the right, people on the left, are looking at the Senate, and they’re saying “nobody’s there representing us. Nobody’s representing the people.” It’s just a matter of who’s in power and who’s taking PhRMA’s money.
I stand by that message, and I think it’s important for both people on the left and people on the right to hear. There’s a difference between helping to recruit Democratic viewers to Fox that they don’t have, and bringing a message about PhRMA that divides Republican viewers from the party leadership by pointing out the hypocrisy of their talking points.
If there are those who don’t want any criticism of PhRMA out there and have written things in the past that have been consistently in line with PhRMA’s propaganda, I think it’s fair to ask what their obsession is with shutting down the messenger.
I went on Ed Shultz last night, and Fox deliberately today after yesterday’s hubub. It scares the bejesus out of the DC establishment of both parties to think that the left and right might align against the corporate interests that dominate the massive giveaways that keep happening no matter who’s in power.
Good. They should be scared.
h/t to Scarce for the video
839 Comments
But for that show, and on that network……..Sigh.
Still support you, but that move to that network though is just a “no” for me there.
You’ve become objectively pro-Republican, and Fox News will use you as a prop and laugh.
You’re a brave, gutsy, principled woman Jane Hamsher. I’m glad you’re leading this thing, because I sure as the heck wouldn’t have your courage. As glad as I am that you’re pressing forward, I have to admit that periodically it scares the bejeezus out of me. That’s okay. Striking off in uncharted territory can be frightening, but fear itself has never killed me. Fear is a manageable feeling. Or, at least it ought to be. Doesn’t seem to be so much for a number of folks at Kos (and, elsewhere). I imagine they can argue against you forever, but that isn’t going to change the reality of a government totally unresponsive to The People. The only way to change that dynamic is for our representatives to be as afraid of us, as many of the Kos Krowd are of you.
Press on, Jane. Press on.
I will gladly stand shoulder to shoulder with tea baggers for so long as it takes to crash the senate bill, short-circuit the pending House total capitulation, and stick my fist in the eyes of Obama, Rahm, pharma, insurance companies, the Dem “leadership”, and the GOP leadership.
After the bill is crashed, THEN I can step away from them and move on to the next battle. If they are useful to kill the next giveaway to big business, then I will stand with them again (think financial “reform”).
They can and should be seen as fair-weather friends but whom cannot be trusted in the end-game. Fine. I will still stand with them.
Bring down the Senate, bring down the House. Crash them ALL if they think they can shove this down our throats. I’m all in favor, at this point, of voting them ALL out of office (including Grayson) if there is capitulation on the side of the House. I am already adamantly opposed to Sen Sanders AND Feingold now – who do you think is responsible for the 60 votes that keep coming along to speed this “reform” bill through to Obama’s traitorous desk? SANDERS AND FEINGOLD are necessary and willing to go along to get along.
Fuck them.
And you are objectively pro big pharma and pro big insurance and pro-bank bailout by not wanting to avail yourself of ALL means necessary to bring this shit to an end.
You are either for the people, or against them. Pick a side.
I’ve been on Fox 3 or 4 times in the last six months. It isn’t anything new.
Going on the highest rated cable news network to spread your message is wrong? What planet are we living on? Has our political discourse really devolved into this?
Amazing how Jane gets vilified by the democratic party and its media mouthpiecces yet still not a peep about Lieberman and the other conservadems.
As an aside I’m very disappointed in how Maddow has covered this lately and O’Donnell on Countdown last night took a complete pass. Makes you wonder if there’s a power play going on behind the scenes.
standing against corporate interests…what a concept
instead of making a joke of the elderly woman who made the comment at the town hall meeting, “tell the government to keep their hands off my medicare” we should make it a teachable moment…
more than just a bit ironic considering Lieberman’s last power play over medicare buy in…
more and more it appears the GOPs resistance on this isn’t about policy or ideology but losing their primacy as bag men for corporations…if Democrats deliver this for the health care industrial complex they will have their political kickbacks/contributions sewed up for decades…
Brilliant. Just brilliant. This is how you play politics ladies and gents. This is how you play for real. The White House is deferential to Fox news because Fox has power. They are afraid of Fox. Why else have Bill O’Reilly to the White House Christmas party to be personally greeted by the Obamas? On the other hand, the White House is thumbing their nose at progressives. For Rahm its a point of pride that he’s trying to roll us. Jane Hamsher is doing the bold thing, the smart thing. She has the courage to pull no punches. She’s doing this to pull in that strange bedfellow, one that has power, to WIN on this issue. To win. And I trust her, because she’s been right about this battle from day one. FDL was the only source that I know that whipped the progressives in the house so that there is now actually a chance that they can improve the bill. Giant, well-funded organizations like HCAN have nothing to show for their efforts in comparison.
I think it is a good idea to champion progressive positions, and speak out against corporatism and special interests.
bringing a message about PhRMA that divides Republican viewers from the party leadership by pointing out the hypocrisy of their talking points.
I’m shocked they let you on.
Indeed. I suspect that the petition is going to explode with even more names very soon.
That’s a good thing.
It must be very satisfying to get to go on a big show like that. You’re not just a random liberal blogger now – you’re the leader of a movement that is getting national press! You’re practically in the village already. And to think – all you had to do to get there was to find common cause with people who are trying to prevent 30 million Americans from being able to access quality health insurance.
Kudos to you and your rising celebrity status.
Yeah me too, kinda like Lanny Davis agreeing to go on with me. There was no way I was turning that down.
Put a sock in it. Enjoy your drastically increased deductible and co-pays. You will soon find that you have insurance, but no healthcare.
Forgive them non-existent god. They know not how ridiculous they are and how self-destructive.
You mean 30 million people from being forced to buy junk insurance?
Rahm needs to revise his talking point sheet.
Just shows the lack of long term critical thinking that goes on over there.
In my view, every ‘progressive’ should make it their business to go on there. Wear a flag pin and then put on a gushing smile when Hannity calls them a ‘great American’.
It’s very convenient for the establishment that the ‘progressive’ movement is confined to a couple of measly hours, if you want to even call it that, on one network.
Any idea why Rachel Maddow hasn’t had you on? Am I wrong for reading anything into this?
This bill, whether the Hopiness and Changiness holdouts like it or not, is going to destroy the Dems. It is going to blow them away in the 2010 election and again in the 2012 unless they totally reverse course, give We the People a mea culpa, and then do what they should have done in the first place: generate a bill that is good for the PEOPLE, improves access and affordability of HEALTHCARE rather than insurance, and totally ignores the bleatings and whinings of the insurance and pharma companies.
take the message to whatever venue will have you…particularly a live format that minimizes opportunity for your words to be manipulated…
a true populist will be seen as an enemy by both poles of the status quo, a successful populist will attract support from both poles of the status quo…
Pat Buchanan on MSNBC.
Jane Hamsher on FOX.
I’d say progressives get the better end of that deal.
I have to say, I’m a little disgusted by the response your attempts at reaching out to conservatives has been getting. It is also pretty hypocritical; I haven’t seen anyone up in arms over Joe Trippi’s joining up with Fox News as a regular commentator.
As someone who has some libertarian and conservative sympathies, it is heartening to know that not all progressives are dead to the idea that we are locked in eternal mortal combat with the right and our hatred is unquenchable.
I thought it was a good clip. Saying don’t go on Fox out of principle is stupid. Getting the message out to people is more important.
Fox viewers might seem unreachable… and many of them are but I suspect some who listened to Jane realized that we might just have some common ground.
I dislike FOX to the nth degree but it does not bother me that Jane went to FOX to deliver her message. She is being honest in holding dem’s feet to the fire. Progressives need to learn how to play hardball or else they are not going to have much sway.
i’m not sure what use there is poll-testing a talking point. I’m looking for pure consequentialist but-for causation here: in scenario #1, where HCR gets passed, 94% of residents have insurance – and 6% will be able to get insurance immediately if they get sick. In scenario #2 where HCR doesn’t get passed, 83% of residents have insurance, and insurance companies continue to make it impossible for sick people to access insurance. In scenario #3, where Democrats start the process over and insist on taking it through reconciliation, still only 83% of residents will have insurance, because that is a road to nowhere that shows no understanding of the political realities in the United States Congress. i don’t really care about the definition of “provides”, much less what 48% of the country thinks about that definition – i care about actual access to health care.
As for the insurance itself being “junk insurance” – despite being significantly better regulated than ever before – i can’t help but think that if the Senate had showed enough deference to progressives to leave in the crappy ineffective public option that made its way through the house, you would be fine with the quality of insurance regs.
Of course I’d like to see more subsidies and better regulations in the future as well, and I’ll be happy to work with you on that in the future (e.g. after HCR is passed), but right now you are being delusionally unrealistic about the policy options on the table and it is dangerous for Democrats to think that way.
Exactly.
Try asking her that: rachel AT msnbc DOT com.
Let us know if she replies!
You, go, Jane!
I wouldn’t recommend just anyone going on Fox; not everyone is up to it, but you have such a great media persona that I think you could on just about any show that you are inclined to…
And he invited his viewers to sign your petition on Fox’s website. What a coup!
You seem to have some street cred at Fox, too.
Jane,
You should NEVER go on that propaganda network! This is not good for your image, nor for our cause.
I’m thinking Clinton Campaign heads, like Howard Wolfson, appearing on Fox all the time trying this same political tactic during the campaign. Where is Wolfson now?
It just marginalizes you amongst the entirety of the Left. If makes you look like you’re willing to compromise liberal principles as a means to a political ends. That doesn’t sit well with people.
Even if that drums up some signatures on the petition, at what cost down the road?
Heh. Jane, you are roughly HALF the rec list at DKos.
The huge population of DKos is inevitably filled with a large objective number of total morans(sic), dolts, non-thinkers, and putzes. They have all fallen out of th woodwork and vomited out a series of diaries the last few days.
Maybe they will self-eject from DKos, particularly since Markos himself is also on the Hamsher side of this debate.
I’m still not sure I would have chosen to go this way, Jane, but I admire what you’re doing and thank you for this clear explanation of your reasons.
Maybe my concern has been more with the way you started this initiative last Fri than with the initiative itself.
May I suggest that you look at Howard Dean’s explanation for his 50-State Strategy and cite his reasoning for wanting to speak to all Americans – even in places where people don’t typically vote for Democrats – in explaining yours?
lolz I won’t hold my breath.
#1, where HCR gets passed, 94% of residents have insurance…
have insurance for which they pay 20 percent of their income even if making less than $40K a year AND all they get is insurance which may or may not deliver meaningful healthcare…
meaningful health care being affordable (copays) and available…
current reality at Kaiser Permanente has employers policies for their workers requiring ever higher copays with the result being patients needing care going without due to cost of copays…
KP policies are not Cadillac policies and KP is the most aggressive provider on preventive care…getting in patients’ faces about their lifestyle choices…
By his own admission, the diarist hadn’t even seen the interview.
These attacks on you are pathetic.
From above: “I will gladly stand shoulder to shoulder with tea baggers…”
Confirmed: FDL is not the place for me.
Fox News might be the most obviously partisan cable news network but if TV appearances are limited to media outlets which offer nothing except objective facts-only reporting, that means never appearing on TV, period.
If you arrived at that conclusion based on the remark of a single commenter you may be right.
For hell’s sake, would you please learn to differentiate between insurance and healthcare?! They are NOT the same. Sure, you could go along with this bill and get a lot of people, under government jackboot, signed up for (and forced to pay) for insurance but they would NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT have healthcare! Why is it you can’t understand the difference?
Massechussetts has almost universal health insurance but MOST of the people there have seen their premiums go UP, their co-pays go UP, their deductible go UP, and their access to healthCARE go down. Why? Because they can’t afford it!
Sheesh. Pull your head out. Insurance does NOT equal healthcare. It’s simple math.
I’m not critical of Fox News for not being objective. If they want to present facts and then give ideological opinions — there is nothing wrong with that. Fox News is 60% lies, 30% distortions, 10% truth. It is pure propaganda, pure misinformation, and I partially blame Fox News for the Iraq War, and for much of the disaster Bush created.
They are a bigger threat to our democracy than anything we face.
To go on there is to legitimize them as a news network. That is reprehensible, in my opinion.
I am equally dismayed at what I see is internecine fight among the progressives. I don’t think it helps progressives to be attacking one another over such small issues.
Bye.
You DO realize that you ARE standing shoulder-to-shoulder with people who love them some big pharma and some bank bailouts and some enforced profits for health insurance companies if you go the other way?
What is it with the fear of cooties around here? IF you have a common goal, regardless of your REASONS for that commonality, you take advantage of that. You BOTH get what you want in the short term. You then part ways and go for what you REALLY want and then you face them down.
This is how the world really works. Get it?
You’ve got the cart ahead of the horse. The Bushies made the decision to go to war without any input from Fox, they just helped sell it to the American public… as did all the major news orgs.
Blame the policymakers for bad policies, not their sycophants.
You don’t believe that Fox News played a HUGE role in misinforming America about the Iraq threat? You don’t think they played a HUGE role in defaming every critic of the war (Dixie Chicks, etc. — making everyone scared to speak up?)
Not sure what planet you were living on at the time…
Daily Kos should be renamed Daily Jane. It is actually an improvement with FDL dominating their narratives. They get over a thousand comments on some of those diaries. Too many for mere mortals to follow.
Oh my GOD Jane did something truly bipartisan! Horrors! Don’t you know that the Villagers and their allies have decided that it’s only a “good” kind of bipartisan if the Corporate Righties get everything they want? (You know, like with the health care bill?)
Seriously. Jane is all over it! Ok, Jane. I was wrong. You’re the master. I am but the learner.
Btw, took me a bit, but I got to watch the interview. Impressive, most impressive.
Truly outstanding!
Which is why using the tools of Corporate America against it is a splendid idea.
Funny how Jane’s appeared on FOX many times in the past, and has worked with libertarians in the past, yet now suddenly people object.
There you go.
As I just said, it’s funny how Jane’s been on FOX before, and has worked with libertarians before, yet only now do people object.
You’re not looking for anything but a justification to give a heartless industry that’s been denying people healthcare (and will continue to do so) everything it wanted in order to make a score.
Your 94% is bullshit, because having insurance and having care are two totally different things.
First of all, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with working with Libertarians. There are many issues which liberals and libertarians are in agreement. I am 100% for that.
I didn’t know Jane had appeared on Fox News before. Anytime I begin to watch Fox News, I have to turn it around lie number five.
Seriously, no dangerous political entity (i.e. neo-cons) can get the American people to support their disastrous policies without a huge propaganda outlet — like Fox News — that helps to mislead the public and sell their policies using fear and lies.
You read up on all the world’s most inhumane tragedies (holocaust, Rwanda, etc.) and you find one central theme – major media outlet spewing venom, lies, and fearmongering to win over the minds of the people.
There is nothing more dangerous to our democracy than a propaganda outlet masquerading as a news network. I wrote a post on this very subject matter, earlier. And now I’m inclined to cross publish it here.
You honestly think Fox News coverage played any part in the decision to invade and occupy Iraq? I don’t. Bush and Cheney were looking for an excuse to do that before they set foot in office.
A few months back I was watching Washington Week on PBS. They ran a clip of a Republican railing against “death panels,” followed immediately by a clip of Nancy Pelosi stating that “private insurance companies ration health care.” The panel then discussed the clips as if they were both valid perspectives on the health care debate. Clearly an example of false equivalency. Should progressives punish them by refusing to appear on PBS if asked?
I think you are 100% wrong on this issue. I’ll be posting a new post shortly to prove my point.
Really? 100 percent? Such absolute certainty must be a terrible burden for you.
All I can say is that I hope my diary over at Kos yesterday, Why Attack Firedoglake? (it’s cross-posted here at the Seminal) was more helpful than harmful.
I only put it up over there because I was concerned about what appeared to me to be the wrong kind of attacks coming from the wrong people.
Turns out, Jane was quintangulating!
Huh?
and why in the hell aren’t they going after Markos who is saying everything Jane is saying ???
last night he referred to the act of voting yes on this bill as it now reads as “unconscionable”
You called it like it is, Jane. I think it’s very important to appear on such shows and networks, particularly Fox. Good call and I admire your courage in going up against brainless orthodoxy. Every ordinary citizen should be against this bill.
Someone on FOX sounding reasonable?
Strange days indeed…
I think it’s because of the way Jane originally framed the idea of getting those on the right to join in to help defeat the Senate’s version of health care “reform.”
But she showed great courage in doing what she’s done and deserves a great deal of credit. Btw, I took great pleasure in smacking those first few Hamsher hater asshole diarists at Daily Kos in my diary!
MSNBC isn’t the liberal network though just because of a few hours of programming.
and for once I am loving Fox’s rabid editorializing -
instead of the usual “arch liberal blogger Jane Hamsher”, they have it on their page as “cancer survivor Jane Hamsher”
It is presently No 1 Video on the Fox site
and btw, I thought it was us “bill killers” who were the “purists”
Jane they were nice to you Fox is never nice to anyone as Left as you. Fox wants something and they seem to be willing to pay more than they ever have.
Jane, there may be issues where I disagree with you, but I am totally with you on this one! The corporatists on both sides be damned and I am glad you are spreading the gospel to both sides. The need to unite to *really* take back our country together is essential. It’s a fundamental issue where we need to educate everyone of all political persuasions who believe in the US as a free democratic republic without undue political influence from the powerful elites. Thanks for what you’re doing.
I also believe you are wrong on this. It’s one thing to oppose the legislation, it’s another to ally yourself with hateful racists who do not have the country’s interests at heart. So in your estimation, the means justify the ends and that’s sad. How can bringing more revenue and attention to those people be good for America. Seems to me it’s all about Jane.
So Obama can go on Fox but Jane can’t is that Rahm’s new party line?
Uhhh…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Z5XO-I0oo?
The politics of cooties are used to distract from problem solving.
We can’t afford that shit anymore.
i’m with jane.
It is in response to ME stating that for the purpose of defeating the bill in the senate, I would be happy to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with tea baggers if it would do the job.
Apparently, my willingness to work with people on the right who have the same goal, albeit for difference reasons, is verboten and thus renders me full of cooties, and by extension, FDL is contaminated by cooties too.
I say it again. I will stand with tea baggers and (almost) any other group of clowns and fools if it means defeating this bill. I can then turn on them as appropriate when it is time to generate a NEW bill that actually addresses healthcare rather than insurance companies.
Yes, but it still in my mind sucks that you even appear on that network.
Whether it is to whip Lanny Davis sorry behind again or for anything else, why give that propaganda channel the time of day at all?
But if it make you happy though, then you have to do what you have to do now. And that is only thing that matters.
Yup.
Satyadaimoku says Jane’s being delusionally unrealistic about what’s on the table. That’s an inaccurate observation. She’s totally realistic about what’s on the table, and that’s why we want it off.
Clear the table, there was never anything of value really on it.
And if you think any new regulations on the insurance industry written by the insurance industry, policed by the same government that gave us the ENRON, Maddoff, AIG, Goldman Sachs etc. etc. scandals, will produce any usefull product, you are truly selling a bag of shit.
That was actually really great, Jane. Excellent in fact.
It might be the most surreal thing I’ve seen in recent history, but I’ll be damned if it didn’t instill a sense of purpose and resolve in the capacity to narrow our focus on the left and right to go after the exploitive measures the entrenched power structures are foisting onto all of us.
You are one shrewd cookie.
Im just confused. I cant keep up with all this.
I dont know who I trust anymore.
“Turns out, Jane was quintangulating!”
Awesome! But… is that legal in Indiana?
Reading the other comments…it seems like no one has heard of an “ad hoc cause” or, dare I say it…coalition.
Did they get the link to the petition at Fox up yet?
I think it’s smart to go on F&F. Perhaps LBJ said it best, “Better to have them inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in.”
Coarse, I know, and maybe not entirely applicable, but still…
Even if you don’t agree with the politics, it’s a smart practical move. If the right doesn’t have anyone pointing out to them that the corporations are the problem (and you know Fox isn’t going to do that on its own and they don’t watch Countdown), they are going to keep pointing their populist rage at the government as an institution instead of at the corruption within the government. Otherwise, we end up with federal buildings full of innocent people and even children being blown up. If we want to try to run noncorporate dems, it doesn’t hurt to let them know that there might be D options that are better than R options if they think their actual interests through. Besides, if you have a faction that stockpiles guns, it pays to remind them that you are not the enemy.
Clearly Jane’s criticism has struck a nerve. Unable to substantively refute her argument, the pro-bill crowd has instead chosen to attack the messenger.
Jane, you’ve shown your true colors here.
This site is not a forum for the public to express its views and enhance the national debate on the issues. It’s a vehicle by which you intend to achieve a baseless form of celebrity, so you can become one of the many talking heads and contribute to circus we know as the 24-hr news cycle. You are like Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh; leeching off of your constituency’s fears to make a buck and a name for yourself. What are you ACTUALLY DOING to make things better?
Might I make a suggestion? Why don’t you just make a sex tape? It’s a much more expedient route to fame, though obviously not nearly as cerebral. Seems to fit your resume better though, don’t you think?
I do not understand what, according to the whiners on this site, this administration was supposed to do on health care? I guess we should have had Feingold and Franken present a perfect, single payer universal health care package and let it fail to pass, just so we can all feel like we tried to do the right thing.
I want SOMEONE to PROVE to me that 60 votes could have been attained on a “better” bill, and then I want SOMEONE to PROVE to me that this bill DEFINITELY WILL NOT WORK.
Presumably, since time traveling is, at this point, nothing more than a theoretical possibility, I doubt anyone will be able to do so.
“Let us not sacrifice progress for perfection.” -Obama
Rahm Emanuel must be seeing stars.
Boxed in tight from the Right and the Left, devoted to a legislative road that leads to humiliation and ruin, the irony of both doing the Republicans work for them by enabling ConservaDems to punk Progressive, Democratic values, and being in the cross-hairs of enormous coalitions across the political spectrum.
Jane, this is just startlingly beautiful.
damn straight.
Thanks. Not easy, but the “audit the Fed” action we worked with Grayson & the Libertarians on was the most successful thing we’ve ever done. Bar none. It breaks up the corporate media-dominated left/right frame that those in power always triangulate against.
It was clear what had happened when I saw that the poll numbers on the White House plan had moved up after the public option came out because people thought it was less “liberal” now. They were triangulating against the left’s support for it (even though it was broadly popular in its own right), and so their corporate giveaway became “centrist.”
When you bring in the libertarians, they get wedged with their own bullshit. It won’t work for every issue because progressives and libertarians don’t agree on every issue. But on the war, transparency, corporate dominance of the political system, civil liberties, surveillance we do agree and there’s a lot of opportunities.
You need to go into the opposition ‘s den if you want to peel some of them off to your cause, — as simple as that.
and yet there are all kinds of folks in your camp who find it okay to further restrict women’s access to full reproductive health services so as to pass a bill
who is using the end to justify the means ?
LOL! I only meant “like triangulating, but more complex,” but I like the way your mind works.
Gracious! Such pearl clutching… Jane you appear to have hit a nerve. Bravo : )
I don’t doubt for a second that Fox is interested in having Jane on to stir up trouble for Dems by enlisting their viewers’ support for killing the bill. They undoubtedly see this through the short-term lens of the 2010 mid-terms, much as Wall Street analysts appear incapable of seeing beyond the next quarter.
However, like indiepro above, I am nonetheless shocked that they had you on. In the long run, the Rethug leadership has as much to fear from a populist revolt as the Dem leadership.
I look forward to the day when we can get back to our ordinary squabbles with our right-wing brethren. In the meantime, I am more than happy to make common cause to bring down the corporate oligarchy to restore our democratic system of government.
But about this topic, and within the past week?
The bills being discussed then are much changed from what’s out there now.
The Senate Bill hurts people and helps corporations, period.
THe people who it will hurt have all kinds of labels after their names, R, D, I, Green, Undecided, poor, etc.
They all should know the truth of what’s going on and then band together to stop it. For there to be some party/label purity test to stop this madness is unfathomable to me.
Political speak:
Translation:
STFU
I just registered here recently after seeing the fawning over the Senate monstrosity at Kos. Not by Markos or Hunter, but the rank and file. If Jane proves one thing, it’s that we needn’t agree on everything, but we should hold strong to our principles. One has to wonder if Frank Lutz has written some of the storylines playing out on the “left”…
Thanks Jane
I didn’t see it while there – but my ‘puter is having lots of trouble reading different sites today :)
The Obamabaggers over at DKos are just giving you the same kind of treatment that they give to anyone who doesn’t prostrate themselves before their golden calf. I for one am able to understand the difference between Democratic politicians appearing on Faux News within the context of a political debate and giving the network undeserved legitimacy, versus appearing on one of their shows as a pundit as you did, which isn’t even in the same ballpark.
When they’re trying to roll over you, you can play your part by lying down for it, or you can go for the big move.
I’m going for the big move.
We don’t need sixty votes — not with reconciliation, which contrary to carefully-cultivated myth, will work just fine on this legislation.
How about Federal Credit Union?
But on the war, transparency, corporate dominance of the political system, civil liberties, surveillance we do agree and there’s a lot of opportunities.
Bingo. If there are opportunities, use ‘em. Duh.
don’t let the Hope be the enemy of the Change
My favorite is the harping on the whole “we need 60 votes” myth when that’s been debunked to hell and back.
Maybe she’s booked for the week? I wouldn’t read too much into it. It’s not like they’ve installed a Batphone for Jane in Rachel’s house.
They are not all hateful racists. I live in a community full of them and have family in that movement. It’s a good thing to have to separate what you see on the news from the reality. There are definitely racists and idiots in that movement and it’s no accident that they are the ones highlighted in our media. Whatever happens, they don’t want us to combine forces. But it’s like I told my dad, who I have never been able to talk politics with, we might disagree on which lobbies are the problem, but we both agree that we need campaign finance reform because a democracy needs to be about the people and not the lobbyists. We also both agree that the best way to get that done in the long run when they would have to vote against their own interests and to minimize the problems in the short run is to throw bought and paid for incumbents out. I have had some major fights with the man about birth certificates, but he’s not completely insane or never helpful in a common cause. Besides, I figure that the reason we have to have birther discussions is precisely because the left doesn’t talk to the right in common terms enough. If they trusted us to not be against them knee jerk, they might get the courage to emerge from the comfort of the Fox News bubble.
You’re fired.
Did you find the video to Dylan’s takedown of the lobbyists this morning? I’d look for it myself, but don’t have a clue when it comes to video clips. Don’t know where to look for them or how to put them up yet…
Reality and history are obviously no defense against your fantasies.
So be it. Continue to believe in your dreams and visions. The rest of us will deal with the real world where there is NO improvement in these bills (never EVER in recent history). What you see is what you get. The best you could expect would be a little trimming around the edges to placate the easily satisfied, such as yourself.
The rest of us would STILL be paying MORE for insurance but STILL not have healthcare because we cannot afford it over the copays and deductibles.
This bill is NOT a foundation for anything but cementing the insurance and pharma businesses into government as tightly as is all the defense industries.
Personally, I HATE fascism. Socialism is WAY better – at least everyone has a piece rather than just a favored rich few.
To ratfood and others who disagree with me: I just published a post on the dangers of Fox News to our democracy:
The Truth About Democracy: It’s Only as Reliable as Our News Programming
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/20400
Normally, I don’t think our side should go on FOX. But the sides have changed radically in the past month; suddenly one side wants an Obama ‘win’ and the other side is for the people. I hope we get LOTS more signatures on the petition thanks to this FOX appearance, Jane. Maybe some folks will stick around and learn something, too.
Nothing wrong with reaching out to natural allies on this issue, especially when The Money Party is working across the ‘aisle’ to screw us over so hard.
Thanks, Jane, for everything you do!
Huh. I’m surprised you were fired from Congress, your ability to read and your critical thinking skills appear to be at just their level. Perhaps you got busted for watching porn on a government computer? That mighta done it and it would explain your tawdry desires.
As anyone who has been around here for more than five minutes is not surprised by.
Like I said the other day, you are my hero.
Rachel called me last week, I couldn’t do it, but I spoke to her producer and helped them find a guest a couple days ago.
Hope that puts the conspiracy theories to rest.
Wow!
brb – can you remind me of the subject matter one more time ? thx
The funny thing is that it’s confined to a few very loud people. They’re not in the majority and they don’t dominate the site like they once thought they did, which is perhaps one reason why they’re freaking out so badly now.
So what’s the solution, Jane? Show me how killing an admittedly imperfect bill helps in the long run. You kill the bill, and no one will give a shit whether it was killed by progressives or the GOP itself – the end result is that the bill is dead and the GOP gets better positioning on the issue because they fought ANY form of HCR from Day One. Add in the possibility that progressives helped, and the GOP gets a HUGE talking point going into the elections. And who the hell are you convincing by going on Fox? It’s not like that audience has much love for anything remotely related to HCR.
I’m sorry Jane, but you’re either willingly doing this to increase your personal visibility, or you’re too ignorant to realize that Fox is playing you. Either way, not too impressive.
Oh, you have no idea. Just getting started…..
;)
(apologies in advance to the mods, who probably just had a collective coronary.)
Rahm Emmanuel is about to be responsible for the most important piece of progressive legislation since 1965 and the biggest expansion of the government’s role in health care in American history. I can tell you for a fact that Rahm couldn’t possibly care less about what Firedoglake is saying about his health care bill, if he’s even aware of it. Meanwhile, what exactly has Jane Hamsher done again for the progressive cause, other than this attempt to sabotage the movement?
I think it’s very appropriate that Hamsher went on Fox News to discuss health care. Fox News basically exists to spread misinformation for transparently political purposes. That’s pretty much been the MO for Firedoglake as well over the past couple of weeks, such as this post and this post.
Are you sure it was really Rachel, though? Maybe it was the Joker disguising his voice!
How about you give it another try for a better bill? Why is this the last chance? What are you afraid of? Is it a Christmas emergency? Or is it more of “do it now before anyone’s had a chance to show how it won’t work” thing.
Let us not sacrifice progress for regression. – Hotdog
Geez, going to the belly of the beast is perfect, as long as you don’t change your message for the forum. I consider it speaking truth to power.
The 60-vote myth is cherished by aristocrats who fear the masses. It’s another aspect of entitlement: We can stop you with 40 units; you must move us with 60.
Times like these are definitely in the go big or go home category. A big reason why Obama’s incrementalism just doesn’t cut it on finance reform, health care, climate legislation, wars…
But you never explained those puffs of smoke on the grassy knoll. Heh.
I wasn’t saying anything one way or the other — just pointing out that she hasn’t been on to talk about the legislation in its current state, which is much changed from this summer.
Uniting the populist left and right is an interesting idea—don’t quite see how it can be done though. The social issues alone would probably keep them far apart–still –it’s a fascinating idea.
Seconded.
Because Fox treated Jane with more respect than any Liberal I have seen on the Fox ever. The ingroup authoritarians treated Jane as human.
Obama has been bending over backwards for months and has never gotten even a kind word from Fox. A too Left for Obama/Fox News agreement on some issues could push public support for the healthcare bill down real low.
All those Dem politicians on the news shows trying to sell the Senate Healthcare bill will not get the same treatment Jane got on Fox, why they surrendered their power.
Fox needs something from us maybe its just viewers but they need something.
If you are new to these parts, I hope you stay around and watch the fireworks.
Welcome to The Lake.
Try looking for Dylan Ratigan designating ’09 ‘Year of the lobbyist.’
It doesn’t matter what Rahm thinks of FireDogLake (or us peasants in general).
Aristocrats never think much of the peasants.
You are so totally full of misinformation. Are you a corporate lobbyist? Everyone knew months ago, with the insults about “Waterloo” and the “leaks” to neo-con reporters that the health care deal had already been made. It was always planned to be Corporate Entitlements for Insurance Companies. Except, it also included the corrupt PhRMA secret deals. Then there was always Joe Lieberliar who could be counted on to wreck Single Payer.
There is no surprise here. The Obama Administration has betrayed its strongest supporters. Sad.
Go big or go home — !!!
That’s it! That’s Obama’s problem. He went big for the campaign, then he went home after the election.
Of course they did – she’s helping them.
Political purposes?! LOL
An entire 1/6 of the economy of the United States funneled through a crooked, inefficient, rapacious industry so Obama can say he accomplished something historic, and you’re calling political purposes.
That’s precious.
1) The most popular part of the bill is the part that’s been stricken: The public option. That’s why the bill is nosediving in overall popularity.
2) The bill wouldn’t need to be killed if Reid would try using reconciliation, as Bush repeatedly did with his Congresses and which will indeed work for this sort of legislation.
What the American people (60% support the public option) want does not fit into that equation.
We have gone from a public option to medicare buy in to the deal is sealed “Corporations own U.S.”
I think she wants them to have care instead of ‘insurance’. We all see what ‘insurance’ gets us, we learned that lesson during Katrina.
Jane, great courage with appearing on FOX! The message your sharing is very important and deserves views from all sides.
Remember folks at the end of the day we are all Americans!
Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, or Happy Atheist day.
Is this some kind of mystery?
Fox was nice to her because she is helping the right wing.
Bwahahaha Cool aid over dose!
Hey Fired, You’re pretty good at making ugly comments. Maybe some other venue might be more welcoming.
We (the left and the right) have the same emeny. We know it, the right keeps falling for the wedge issues. Reminding them is a wonderful idea.
Bravo Jane. Air America is starting to really give you props too.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
unfortunately, the American people don’t get to vote in the Senate.
I’m not sure I agree with your appearance or the value of going on Faux because I think that most/many of their viewers cannot discern between the fact that their leaders are bought and paid for Corporatists too. That said, I totally understand the fact you are trying to capitalize on the populist outrage that exists out here on all sides of the aisle that believes that our country is quickly becoming The United State of America, Incorporated. The best gov’t corporations can buy. You and your team of detailed fact based writers (emptywheel, david dayem, jon walker, slinkerwink, nyceve, Blue texan, to name a few) need to keep documenting the atrocities and connecting these dots between the monied/corporate connections that so taint politics/government and often do more harm than good. Keep hammering away at it. Good Luck…you must be striking the right cord because the daggers are certainly out for you. Yowza.
I don’t know why the personal attacks. Jane Hamsher brings common sense (which isn’t all that common anymore, judging by the blogosphere) and poise to Fox noise. Not to mention something that isn’t tainted by opinion before it is reported.
Considering the GOP don’t have any ideas, and wouldn’t present them even if they did, Jane’s approach makes sense. I don’t see many defenders of Democracy doing what she is doing. I may not agree with everything she believes, but she is one of the only voices out there.
Oh, and lending cred to Fox? They’ll sabotage that themselves. They don’t need the likes of Jane Hamsher to do that!
So why don’t they?
I’m totally cool with Jane going on Fox, of making alliances with what she sees as ‘reasonable’ Libertarians or Republicans. I love throwing a conceptual wrench into the artificial dichotomy machine.
But you start cheerleading standing with ‘teabaggers’ and ‘almost’ any other bunch of clowns to reach your aims, man, I’m REALLY curious as to what ‘almost’ would have to be. Or are you talking about these legendary noble and saintly teabaggers I’ve heard referred to by folks here who’d have you believe that Obama’s about to crank up the zyklon-b factories again?
Please please PLEASE clarify, because I want to know. You’ve made a bold statement, I want to know if you mean the teabaggers that I saw again and again all over the airwaves and over EVERY SINGLE FUCKING LIBERAL BLOG for the past six months.
Because if those are the folks you mean, then I guess ‘the ends justify the means’ — but remember that there are many progressive constituencies who would want in no way to stand shoulder to shoulder with folks who HATE them.
Folks who don’t want to share with them, don’t want to fork over their precious tax dollars to educate, feed or insure health care for their children, who don’t want them in their country, and who actively HATE them.
Are you going to give them (okay, me) stale lectures about how it’s “all about class not race, man!!! Get over it!!” or that I’m naively playing the race card, or that I’m stuck in the same partisan thinking that Obama (or “Oboy”, as I saw him referred to in a post here a couple days ago — clever, and quite subtle!) has so famously decried?
Or are you going to respect our principled positions and defenses of our own desire for dignity and self-determination no matter the cost, just as you seem willing to do for your new comrades?
The Dems dont win if this bill passes. Put that fantasy out of your head. They are HURT by its passage. They still have time, however, to actually pull a win here. They need to use the House version of the bill as the skeleton. They need to push on the progressiveness of the bill. Progressive ideas and policies ALWAYS win the public debate, the Dems simply refuse to use them or stick by them, thinking instead that they need to adopt GOP points.
If the bill dies, then that is as must be anyway. The Dems can then focus on getting a good bill up and NOT let Baucus or Nelson or any other idiot cripple the process. You start out accepting that NO GOP members will vote for the bill. You then do whatever you must, including threatening party member perks, seats, re-election support, whatever, to get the party together.
You honestly think selling out women worse than Bush could ever manage with a GOP majority is the vote winner here? You think that forcing me and millions like me to give money to corporate CEOs under threat of penalties if I don’t is going to make us vote Democrat?
HAH!
How is keeping Aetna or Blue Cross or United Health from forcing you to buy their insurance (and then using the IRS to fine you if you don’t) “helping the right wing”?
Well god damn, nice move.
There are few things more satisfying than watching people reject the false-dichotomies that frame almost every contentious topic, and your direct points regarding how both sides in the Senate came together to favor PhRMA against the bases of both parties was as incisive a deconstruction as I’ve seen on TV in a very, very long time.
I wish there were a way I knew to help beyond just donating money.
Yup. Until they are facing the [Edited by Moderator]. Then they really reall FEEL for the peasants.
[Mod Note: And lets not go any further down that particular path, OK?]
I applaud Jane for going on Fox. What’s bad for us is equally bad to the wingers and they need to hear the message. We have been laughed at, put down, or ignored for too long. We are all citizens and if we find common ground, it’s good.
Rahm Emanuel would rather walk on broken glass than have anything to do with anything that is remotely progressive. The man doesn’t have a progressive molecule in his body. But thanks for confirming that he is responsible for the Senate bill. Funny. I thought the Senate was supposed to be responsible for their handiwork. Guess not, eh?
She’s helping them explain how Barack is helping Big Insurance have the biggest piece of pie EVER in exchange for a mishmash of give with-one-hand take-away-with-the-other gobbledy goop. GO JANE GO
Nope Bill and Obama have both doe plenty of corporate giveaways that have helped Fox. Fox has no problem treating people who have surrendered their power like crap even when they help Fox.
I cannot believe I am reading that insulting comment here. Incredible!
There is no better way to show our common cause against corporate power than to appear on shows watched by populists on the right. Kudos.
YAWWWWWWN.
So tiresome. Why don’t you go back under your bridge and see if you can catch one of the three billy goats gruff?
(((Twain)))
Haven’t seen you much of late.
Hey all you concernies, maybe Jane is changing the game. Somebody fucking has to.
Um…is that a trick question? ;-)
Do we know if F&F will ever invite her back on the show?
What would happen if there was a movement to “Just say Fuck YOU” and drop any health care insurance?
Really….I never worried about it, I’m 57, in good health..I will not worry about it, that’ll get cha sick..
BUT Having Healthcare INSURANCE, but no healthcare rings so true to me….
Why pay for bogus coverage-bank the $, pay the doc when needed…
Simple, BUT face it …If this movement took hold, jes feel the rumblin!
This is the exact kind of divisive bullshit that the Democratic Party establishment has been using to marginalize reformers for a very long time. It is also the exact same kind of bullshit that drove me to leave off of “Daily Kos” years ago.
Satyadaimoku believes in the Rahm Hypothesis: Namely, that the Dems will get slaughtered “just like in 1994″ if we don’t wave on through this crappy bill. However, as I explained a while back, Rahm’s ramming NAFTA down Dems’ throat and demoralizing them had a lot more to do with 1994 than many other things currently blamed for it.
You have that exactly backwards. They are helping us.
I disagree, Jane on FOX looks like the hen taking over the fox-house. She has them eating out of her hand. Did you hear the intro, cancer victim! You don’t get it dished up more supportive than that.
You go, Jane!
“Let us not sacrifice
progress for perfectioncorporate profits for people.” -ObamaSorry I had to fix that.
I went to this site because I have seen Jane Hamsher on Democracy Now numerous times. It is not a talking point arena and neither is she. In other words it about information, facts and the reality of them and how they are shaping our lives. It doesn’t matter if she appears on Fox and Friends. It is not unprincipled for her to do so. It is great and reaffirming to hear issues being discussed frankly with out propaganda. The divide among us as americans is orchestrated for profit that needs to be discussed and fought in every venue.
We weren’t looking for perfection (single payer) we were looking for progress ..public option…medicare buy in.
You are obviously intimidated by Jane’s intellect and ability to play hardball.
Praedor’s response to satyadaimoku: Exactly!!! Insurance (and the requirement to have it) DO NOT EQUAL health CARE! As you point out, Mass has tried to go this route, which is admirable. BUT, ask anyone in Mass how long it takes to see a doctor, or a specialist: anywhere from a few weeks to a few months!!! Health Care Reform, through the requirement for all to be “insured”, merely means more customers for the insurers and more strain on an already overburdened, inefficient system.
Goood on you, Jane. Good, succinct, stuff. You fire me up. :o)
HEY! A point or two for Fox, for having you on, and giving you a good shot. :o)
And the Bank bailout did not help the right wing? Did the Bank bailout bye Obama any friends at Fox? Dems who play nice with Fox just get abused or forced to agree 90% of the time with Fox.
They let Jane speak uninterrupted and did not twist her message something is up but your conclusion’s are wrong.
Standing in front of teabagger cameras is WAY different than selling out every frigging American in order to have the CEO of AETNA pat you on the back and say way to go boy.
Remember, these are the people who go into fainting spells if one of uses the wrong fork for the salad course.
The thing is, Fox usually locks out anything that might upset their fixed message of fair and balanced pablum. Jane shouldn’t be taken for the strawpeoples they usually have in their star chamber.
Unfortunately they are not representing the majority of the American people
Thank you, Jane.
You are the only one out there who is speaking for me. And you do it with such elegance, and without the histrionics that I always get into myself whenever I comment.
Thanks for standing up when we so desperately need it. And speaking the truth.
I have written letters until I am blue in the face, but nine times out of ten my letters turn into rants.
I have been letting the leaders and my senators and rep know I have resigned from the Democratic Party. It’s about all I can do.
Now that they have taken the 85 plus percent Democratic support for a strong public option
and let four Senators representing the corporations, and the administration evidently representing the same turn against tne most overwhelming majority support for a policy we have probably ever had.
It is no longer my Democratic Party.
(((Ratfood))) Took a break – all the screaming and yelling was really getting to me. How’s Bob? What did you get him for Christmas?
What!? You think it’s bad idea to go into your adversary’s court at his request and in front of his audience poke a stick in his eye with impunity!?
What planet do you live on?
Way to go Jane!
The bill sucks, does nothing for people needing healthcare, and should go down.
Wow, I’d missed that. Guess that makes it official, firedfromcongress has been accepted to troll college.
But didn’t Jane say that Dems shouldn’t go on fox because it legitimizes them? I think Jane is great but, I would support killing the bill if there was time. There isn’t!
If they are new posters, suspect some sort of spy or media blitz bs.
Powerful and well funded interests are behind the message wars. They actually pay people to spew stuff out like that to shape our public opinion.
Lots of Rahm trolls out today Rahm must be very worried about Jane going on fox.
Paint with a broad brush much? Me thinks you need to read more comments here where some people have actual in-life direct experience with “tea baggers” and, know what? They are not ALL a bunch of mouth breather racists and anti-immigrants.
Sure, there sure are a lot of those but here’s the thing, what the fuck do I care what their personal views are really if they help to terminate the senate bill? WHO CARES!?
Seriously, perhaps you would like to suggest that their right to vote be rescinded? Perhaps they should be barred from having any say in their own lives vis a vis healthcare and how they spend their money or how the government forces them to spend their money. Is that it?
I SUPPORT the tea baggers only in so far as they are against bailouts to corporations and banks and wall street. I SUPPORT BANKRUPTCY and total loss for the shareholders. OH MY GAWD! COMMON GROUND WITH TEA BAGGERS!
Where we part company is when they get into not wanting to support the poor, public schools, student loans, etc. Or when they enter birther territory (Obama is an asshole sellout but he is an AMERIKAN asshole and sellout), or “Obama is a socialist” (I WISH he were a socialist instead of a fascist). But here’s the thing, not all tea baggers are birthers. Not all tea baggers are anti-immigrant. Not all tea baggers are racist. But ALL tea baggers have a vote and that vote is worth something here.
Obama has never gone on Fox and Friends. Is that really okay with everyone. The show she chose if one of the most hateful, racist, ignorant shows on TV. What will she do next, go on Glenn Beck? Mark Levin?
Bob’s good, he says, “Hi.” Here is what I got him for Christmas. I haven’t assembled it yet. I look forward to being able to roll it into other parts of the house, he misses me when I’m away. :-)
Good show Jane. . Triangulate the hell out of the major parties.
I don’t disagree with you. I simply want to know where the line is when it comes to whom some of us are willing to ally with to defeat this bill, that’s all. Because as any idiot knows, there’s always fine print and there’s always a price to pay.
The truth will set us free.
Thanks for speaking the truth Jane Hamsher.
When there is no intellectual argument to be made they resort to insanity.
Beck would be pissing himself uncontrollably after two minutes with Jane Hamsher.
Thanks, friend. You’ve answered my question.
Obama has been on the Fox news shows does it really matter which one?
5 seconds of FOX and my brain starts screaming.
Yet, There must be righties who are educatable.
This HC bill sucks, and everyone here knows it.
The bigger threat is the fall of demaocracy,
and the rise of corporatocrocy, corp. facists,
corp. commies or whatever name their givin.
Make the name stick. Educate the left, the right,
and everyone in between.
GOOD JOB JANE
So, you’re saying there would be no discernible difference?
That’s perfect. Bob will love it. And who misses who? :)
yes, but jane is a crazy liberal, and she’s the designated target.
Honestly, i doubt anyone’s noticed that Markos says the bill stinks too.
the hypocrisy and character attacks are disgraceful.
I’m leaning that way myself. See, unless the conference bill changes it, the tax penalty collected by the IRS has no teeth. If you refuse to pay for insurance AND refuse to pay the 2% tax as a penalty, as of last reading the bill specifically bars any punitive action. Get it? They make the mandatory tax penalty for not handing your money to insurance company CEOs totally voluntary!
I say run with that. I would be better off simply banking that 2% that I will refuse to pay to the IRS and use that to pay for my healthcare out of pocket. What is NOT going to happen is I am not going to give up 8% of my income (as a healthy person) to the insurance companies under government jackboot. Hell, I can do better than socking away that 2% “penalty”, I can save upwards of 10 to 15% of my income and use that as needed.
To all you apologists and hopeless Obama Hopers here who want A bill, ANY bill: NO. I WILL NOT PAY. Period. The End.
Having a million viewers hearing your point of view is neither bad strategy nor a deal with the devil. The only way to convince people is to engage.
I do live in Massachusetts, and what you’re saying is not only bullshit, it’s a talking point taken straight from the right. Next are we going to hear about the death panels created by this legislation?
People here seem to be confusing ‘bad for insurance companies’ with ‘good for the country’. Look, I’d prefer a single-payer system which essentially abolished private health insurance as well, and if that were on the table, I’d support it. But what’s actually on the table is either a system where the public supports people buying insurance from private organizations and then regulates those organizations in a pretty significant way, or the public doesn’t support people buying insurance from private organizations, and regulates those organizations in a crappy way.
Yes, this bill will ensure greater revenue for private insurance companies and yes, it will ensure greater revenue from pharmaceutical companies. So fucking what. The important thing is providing people with both better health care and better health insurance – e.g. better security for people who fall ill.
A close friend of mine recently lost her father because he couldn’t afford his health insurance after he lost his job, and couldn’t afford his lipitor without insurance. That’s our current system – you lose your job, there’s nobody there to help you. If we had this health care reform legislation five years ago – or if he lived in Massachuestts – her father would have been eligible for subsidies that would have allowed him to stay on his medication and he would still be alive. That’s what you people are fighting against. You are fighting against a program that will save thousands of lives.
Fortunately, you are certain to fail. And actually, I think the threat of a left-wing rebellion has probably been effective in preventing any further erosion of this health care bill, which is a good thing. But if people like Jane were successful, they would be indirectly responsible for the deaths of actual human beings. That is just a fact.
here ya go
fyi – simply googled “Morning Meeting w/Dylan Ratigan – video”
Well, we are a team. Heading to lunch. So nice to see you. :-)
Amen. Hi Sharkbabe!
Jane, I am new to the site and have heard about recently with the hoopla with the healthcare bill.
I just wanted to let you know I agree, both sides, Republican and Democrat are failing to anything for the American people. One has to wonder if it is not a coordinated effort!
Thanks again for bringing to light the incompetance of both parties.
Great going Jane! I’m proud so proud of you!
Long live bloggers and blog commenters. Especially the ones that have been around awhile! Like you rwcole!
Yay Jane! I’ll watch fox on youtube as long as you or Marcy are giving it to ‘em. I think Kilmeade has a crush on you Jane!
Thanks for the opportunity to chime in. I like to read the different points of view. Even the concern trolls have a way of adding momentum.
Long live FDL and happy birthday Fitz (and his new kid born yrsterday) h/t skdadl
Marry me Jane! You rock! I didn’t think I would live long enough to see a progressive who had a backbone and I’ve been so bummed by Feingold for not playing the part of a progressive Joe Lieberman. We have nobody left. We are all out here alone in the wilderness. Our party has forsaken us. Time to curl up and die? No way in hell. I’m getting out my pitchfork and making my plans to picket Barbara Boxer’s office. Time for the bold progressives to teach those DailyKos weenies how to really crash the gate. Thanks for giving me hope and the energy to keep fighting. I’m with you till the end.
This healthcare bill spends more money to insure less people than national healthcare in other countries does. This bill is a bailout of the insurance industry. This bill if passed and forces people to buy insurance will give the GOP the next election.
Much like Nafta an other Rahm plan gave the GOP an election.
tee hee! I like what Selise wrote elsewhere on this subject:
Jane, you are heroic. Its funny, ever since you took on Lanny Davis, there has been an overtly aggressive attack campaign launched against you. It seems, to me, the WH is trying desperately to do 2 things: 1) discredit you; and 2) give the appearance there is some progressive support for this bullshit bill by manufacturing it on some progressive sites.
The WH is crazy. If they win this battle, they will lose the war. Come election time, when they need the base to be fired up and ready to go (and vote for them again), the base will not be voting for any one of them who signed this Bill.
Dream on. The Dems lose if they pass this. Mark my words and watch the polls in 2010. They are sinking themselves.
So…you work for which insurance company again?
Rahm, is that you? Only Rahm has that high an opinion of Rahm.
If you give your negotiating points away when the White House is desperate for a deal and the insurance industry has individual mandates waved in front of them, you’ll never get any more. Why would they do that? Obama and the Dems who want a bill, any bill, have what they want and move on. The insurance companies have the mandates they want so you have nothing to trade if you ever do manage to drag them to the table. It’s just like the bankers. They gave them the money they wanted and figured the regulations could be worked out later. How’d that work out?
jane, do not ever apologize for showing some stones. the biggest problems of the far right and the far left is that they’ve both stopped stepping up. you may not change anyone’s mind, but you are not incapable of facing your detractors.
i’ve pretty much gotten off the blogs altogether because they are so polarized. whatever one thinks of the legislation, behaving as badly as your extreme opponents only demeans you. i disagree with you about alot: i think your expectations are unrealistic and that the only hope of any real change in politics, as in life, is to start. all this is is a start. time will tell.
it is easy to take an unequivocating position when you are in your own house at your own computer and no one is getting in your face over every inflection. good on you for having a backbone.
I agree with you on the stragety put forth by DEAN it worked. By the way Obama is in office cause of Howard Deans efforts. Jane can go on all the networks putting forth her message,but it does not make a difference if she does not have a plan of her own to effect the 2010 elections. At the same time I have and I am sure others have offer plans for her to play hardball,but not a word from her. I disagree with her about joining forces with teabagger given they are supported by corporate marketng forces who are against DEMS efforts period.
Oh you betcha!
When I came out as a leader for Native American religious freedom (see Doctrine of Discovery) and medical marijuana activism, they instigated a big new no smoking campaign centered in my son’s school and posted the resulting art at the Mall. That sure seemed like a personal attack to me.
Especially, since their ‘mental health’ professionals were also telling my husband that I was “delusional” for being afraid of the Bush administration, thinking I could ever inspire a political action project to legalize pot, or build a successful third party.
I thought they were just misunderestimating me, but after a while I decided their plan was to kill me instead.
It is very frightening when you start thinking your health care provider might actually want to kill you.
I didn’t think I’d be able to watch this all the way through. That was FOX?
Good job, Jane!
And that is precisely the approach that shakes things up. The ossified powers-that-be can manage the same ol’ game. When the rules change, all bets are off. Good.
Go Jane.
You tell them Jane. Knowledge is a powerful thing. It wakes some out of a coma.
Since there are some battles that Libertarians and Socialists both believe in, it is time for us to work together on that which we can. As partner’s, we have a majority on some of these issues. And making these criminal excuses for bad meat left on the road after the crow’s are finished that make up our vaulted houses of ill repute dance to the tune of our piper is even better.
Congress is rapidly leaving reality behind, but that gives them too much credit for ever understanding it. Farewell, good riddance.
Tea baggers are not a group you should stand with at all. Get a hold of yourselves. I am beginning to sense none of this is based upon reality. Stand firm all you want, Jane. You can sit in a corner with Denis Kucinich. It is great to have beliefs but what good is it if no one listens? For all of you that think you can team up with Fox or Teabaggers, you are delusional. All you do is make them stronger, while weakening the only party that comes close to your beliefs.
Enough is Enough. Keep it up and we all will be saying “President Palin, or Romney”
politics make strange bedfellows
what difference does the venue make ?
It’s the message that counts
Jane’s trying to get the word out to the public that this Senate bill sucks. Fox and Friends is watched by a lot of people. Why not use them to reach a different audience?
Seems like the left and the far right are on the same page as far as this bill goes ,we may not agree on anything else ,but we do agree on this piece of crap bill
You write neither “satya” nor is what you espouse “daimoku.”
You talk to anyone/everyone. No information means no opportunity for change. Beware the them/us trap.
Continue talking, Jane. To anyone.
Bailout, agreed!
The ins. cos. are losing customers in boatfulls
because of the economy.
Only problem with that is if something catastrophic happens you lose everything you’ve worked for your entire life in 5 minutes.
we may not agree on anything else ,but we do agree on this piece of crap bill
We also (seem to) agree on the Bernanke / FED thing. Why not use whatever venue is available? Is this about winning, or whining?
Go Jane.
I said at the beginning of my post that I had no problem with Jane appearing on Fox or reaching out to make common cause with reasonable folks.
My beef is with people who say they’ll ally with ANYONE — not just reasonable people, ANYONE — to defeat the bill because their other beliefs or positions are irrelevant, as the intrepid Praedor has stated pretty baldly. I’m simply not going to go there with folks who get off on racist rhetoric, imagery, and advocating violence, and it disturbs me to see that people on this blog, that I’ve followed for years, are.
What gives, fellow progressives?
Jane,
Great job. You are doing just fine….Jane you have nothing to feel bad about. No need to second guess yourself or make apologies to the likes of Markos/Daily Kos. Screw the DailyKos if they are that thin skinned and want to remain ObamaBots.
I am sure Markos has gone on marginal shows. I mean he went on “Meet the Press” and we all know that program is used by Washington Insiders to peddle their propaganda and lies.
I did not see Fox and Friends but you have nothing to feel ashamed or guilty of. Does Markos criticize the Democrats who appear on FOX? Obama was interviewed by Bill O’Reilly when he was running for election. Does Markos know that the Morning Joe Show and Chris Matthews have read from Obama White House talking points?
Markos/Daily Kos record of being Democratic Party gatekeepers and the lack of real critical analysis are well known and documented. I wouldn’t care less what a former CIA Operative-Markos Moulitsas says on his blogsite. I always have thought that the DailyKos was nothing but a CIA front anyway. I doubt the “legitimacy” of the DailyKos site anyway as being an “authentic liberal/progressive” blog. I have always thought of Markos like I view all agent provacteurs.
If Markos was truly a progressive/liberal he would understand that getting the message out on any channel is the most important issue at hand. Liberals and progressives should not be aligned with any political party anyhow just as people who are antiwar should not be wedded to any political party or care who is what as long as one is antiwar.
In my opinion, once again, the DailyKos is stirring up trouble and at your expense this time.
Jane, these are my thoughts about what the DailyKos/Markos have said. I seldom go over to the “Kos” anyway. I just came here recently, but, admire your courage. Keep up the Good Fight. I remember when Peter Beinart appeared on FOX as one of the liberal-pro-Iraq War warriors. I have never trusted Markos or the DailyKos but have always thought you are very, very sincere and a wonderful person of the little I know and seen with you. Keeo up the GREAT WORK Jane.
Jane you are more valuable and make more sense than the glib Markos and his very superficial site. Markos is not my “spokesman” and I have been a leftist long before Markos knew what the word meant. In my opinion, Markos and the DailyKos are phonies.
Amen, Lady. Go Jane!
We go to war with the media we have, not the media we wish we had.
We appeal to the coalitions we have, not the coalitions we wish we had.
Yes, Fox News is a danger to society BUT pooh on purity: do we want to WIN this fucking thing or not? Should we *skip* appealing to Americans who are against this thing because they are on the other side???? How prissy. Surely as the stakes get higher for the wellbeing of more and more Americans (and the whole economy for that matter) these philosophical reservations and principled stands should be dropped in the best interests of ALL Americans when there is a strategy that moves the debate forward.
Do we care about all Americans, or just Progressive Democrats? And just where will that get us?
Jane has the necessary media skills, that is obvious! I support her 1,000%.
Fox wants Jane on because it makes DAMN good TV! Do not forget it. Check the ratings, babies. I bet you will see Jane on more and more.
And they put the petition on their website?? And they showed respect to Jane and her history and credentials??
Absofuckinglutely brilliant.
We could win this shit yet.
Not gonna wade through 200+ comments.
Good on you, Jane. It’s only smart to take advantage of any opportunity to present our case. If you got one person to actually think about what you’re saying it was a success.
Cesar Chavez was once asked how he managed to bring together all the people that eventually became the United Farm Workers. His response was, “One person at a time.” That’s still a valid concept.
Good job,Jane. One of the few progressives willing to call it like it is. The government is screwing each and every one of regardless of party affiliation and if we can unite to make REAL change and throw these bums out, I don’t care what party you belong to.
What happens if you can’t pay your premiums? What controls the cost of those premiums? Collusional “competition?” You’re delusional if your argument is that an industry that skives 30% off the premiums that come through its doors and obstructs payment at every turn will help people because of some regulations that very same industry wrote. They will wiggle out of any payment they can and deny any treatment they can in order to turn a buck. Nothing in this bill changes that or ensures any lives will be saved.
Right, clearly the person who just said “I’d prefer a single-payer system which essentially abolished private health insurance as well, and if that were on the table, I’d support it” must work for an insurance company. I’m actually the CEO of AETNA. We send our spies all over the internet to infiltrate sites like these in order to ensure that the people’s revolution against our neo-feudalism bill is squelched. Right now, I’m using your IP address to track your identity so we can start surveillance on your home and people close to you. I like the blue curtains up in your bedroom, but you should know that somebody appears to have left the water running in your bathroom sink.
You are completely correct: everybody who supports this bill is motivated by pure malevolence and greed, and is out to get you and your family.
I wish Obama had followed Dean’s 50-State Strategy last year.
Great comment.
Well done, Jane — and thanks for this post.
Dear Firedfromcongress @79. If you’re that [edited by mod - no namecalling please], you SHOULD have been fired from congress. :o)
Hamsher has done more to shoot down the bullshit that’s being slathered around about this healthcare trojan horse than anyone else you could name.
She’s done a great job of filling the same old let’s-protect-the-status-quo vacuum that we see EVERY time there’s the slightest chance for real change, where the talking heads and OUR congresseels know which questions not to ask. Currently, she is THE pointwoman for it. And whomever’s second aint even close.
Plus, with her personal situation she also has a rather large dog in the fight.
Going after her for appearing on Faux is crazy. If she’d been peddling the “this is the best we’re going to get, so we should support it” koolaid, it would be fair to have a go at her, but she came out with both barrels blazing; no pissing around, and said that we should strangle this turkey.
What else can you ask of her, to go on FOX, for Christ’s sake, and stay consistent to her message and her beliefs? And do it as Obama is looking like a damn chameleon on most of the important issues we face.
As for Kos’ criticism of her; that’s easy: They are some of the good guys, too, and they do good work for our side, but it’s gotten so damn big over there that sometimes, it’s just…incoherent, and this is one of those times.
Jane’s layin’ it out, strong and clear. It’s the right stuff.
Pray, continue, Ms. Hamsher. :o)
TPM reports ~ Asked About Charge Of Meddling, Gibbs Says FDA Drug Imports Stand Hasn’t Changed
Neither the FDA nor the White House has directly denied the charge, and there’s speculation the Obama Administration came out against the Dorgan measure because of its June deal with the pharmaceutical industry.
TPMDC’s Christina Bellantoni asked Gibbs during the press briefing today how the White House responded to Dorgan’s charge.
“I would simply say, concerns by the Food and Drug Administration about reimportation are not something that came to the fore in the Obama administration. … Drug reimportation, which the president supports, if one can do it safely, were the concern in the previous administration’s Food and Drug Administration,” Gibbs said. “So this is about a ten-year concern by the Food and Drug Administration
in terms of safety.”
“Uniting the populist left and right is an interesting idea—don’t quite see how it can be done though. The social issues alone would probably keep them far apart–still –it’s a fascinating idea.”
You both work to primary and defeat bought and paid for incumbents on both sides of the aisle. After the primaries, you each vote for whichever candidate you like based on different issues, but at least both sides know it isn’t going to be lobbyist vs. little guy. You both work on finance reform like the audit the fed amendment and then part ways to argue for your own ways to use the Treasury once you’ve got it back from the banksters. You both work on campaign finance reform so that the elections run cleaner and then you use those improved elections to elect whoever truly represents the people. If you can’t handle that you might lose if the majority votes, you don’t belong in a democracy. The common cause is just getting our democracy back. Once it’s back to functioning for the people, the people get to decide what to do with it and how the country will be run just as they always have done. It’s not like you have to want the government to make the same decisions in order to want to make it responsive to the populace in its decisions.
Obama, all by his Bushlike self is doing himself in. He doesn’t need me or tea baggers to destroy his second term.
He HAS no second term. He is the War in Afghanistan President! He is the “Nobel Peace Prize Winner for War” President. He is the “give bankers what they want when then want it and HOPE” President. He is the Give Unto Insurance Companies and Big Pharma and Rake In Corporate Campaign Donations” President. He is the “Fuck the Base” President. He is the “Never Met a Wall Streeter I Didn’t Want to Fellate” President. He is the “What Constitution?” President. He is the “Campaign Promises? WHAT Promises” President.
He is working faster than any President in history to prevent his chances of ever getting re-elected to a second term. Hell, he’s managing down that path before he’s managed to complete a year in office! What a guy!
Jane’s a 12 dimensional chess player. Be sure to get enough sleep though, huh? Take care of yourself. You were on here at least until 2 last night…
And then there’s this…
And how is that any different with this bill? It does NOT prevent medical bankruptcy. It does NOTHING to prevent them. It maintains the bankruptcy problem while trying to make sure everyone has insurance! What’s the point of the insurance when it still guarantees medical bankruptcy?!
With a bill as bad as the senate bill, I’m happy to stand with anyone. When this is done we can go back to our corner, the teabaggers can go to theirs, and we can start fighting about climate change, religion, and the tragedy of the commons again.
Thanks! If you think it’s worth putting up, can you put it in a diary. Obviously, I totally think it’s worth doing!
Those damn nurses are obviously birthers or teabaggers or LOONS!
Jane,
On Sunday when you were attacked in the Daily Kos site by Deoliver47 I defended you strongly. See a diary I wrote then:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/20/817292/-Leave-Jane-Hamsher-alone
But you going to Fox News today was, in my opinion, totally unacceptable. You are entitled to oppose strongly the bill, but when you do that at Fox News, you are used by Fox for their own (fascist) propaganda purposes. You will now have teabaggers signing your petition against the bill.
Sorry, but Fox News is not news. It is a neo-fascist propaganda station and you made a huge mistake to go there.
I am also disappointed, like many, by the Obama administration. Nevertheless, I agree with Feingold (and also Howard Dean now). Better something than nothing.
In my opinion, liberals should not form alliances with idiotic libertarians, no matter how honest the libertarians may be on their views. They are still idiots. I always liked your courage and your dedication to liberal causes (and you justified attacks on Lieberman). Unfortunately, I think you have lost perspective in this case. You are going the very wrong way.
if only there was a provision of this bill that required insurance companies to ensure that 80 to 85 percent of revenue is spent on medical procedures.
oh wait, that is in the bill.
if this bill was written by the insurance companies, why did they include that provision?
politics is complicated and there are neither angels nor demons – not even the insurance companies.
Rahm?? Rahm?? Is that you????
One thing they want is to get off the hook for their past propaganda and collusion in war crimes.
Another thing they want is to suck up to power, they can tell Jane has it so that is their natural reaction.
The left finally has a champion that the right can like.
Spoken from someone who obviously thinks very little of women…especially well-spoken intelligent women.
Hamsher is a Hero!
You go, Jane.
We have your back.
And the dKos critics? Go figure. I wonder whose side they think you are on.
Isn’t there enough action for both Marcos and Jane?
maybe she’ll meet with Susan Collins
There are issues that the far right and the far left agree on, like no wars. All the people in the middle think wars are doing god’s work. So if you don’t combine the two opposite sides on the war issue, you have no anitwar movement.
Yeah! They only get to take 20-fucking-percent of MY money and YOUR money and stick it into CEO bonuses and shareholder dividend checks! Oh, and if only there was a provision that prevented medical bankruptcy! Yeah! That would be great but there isn’t anything in there to help stop medical bankruptcy so…
I can go bankrupt just as well without the bill as with it. I say without the bill because I can sock away a lot of money before I am likely to face a medical bankruptcy.
Piss off Rahm.
Jane’s got more “balls” than all of our Senators combined
Jane has held her ground ,while all of our progressive Senators have caved in on this
Jane I’m wondering how in the world this is going to drum up more signatures for this petition.
Especially since 1)there’s no link on the home page of Fox and Friends and 2)there’s no mention of the Firedoglake.com url.
Dear Rahm,
Feel free to start updating your resume today.
Can’t wait to see Obama accept your resignation and say nice bullshit about you as you leave the White House.
Sincerely,
Brc
So called “democrats” go on Fox all the time.
It’s about time they had an actual progressive voice on there saying the things they need to.
And this isn’t new. People have been saying for years that the far left and the far right have more in common than they think. That’s why it scares them.
I’m with Jane on this one..the right move.
Couple of things:
1) I’m with you on single payer.
2)Massachusetts health care comment: It’s not bullshit. A relative of mine recently had cancer surgery (on Medicare) and was told by their doctor “things would have gone better if you’d come in for care sooner”. This same doctor’s office couldn’t see him for 4 months. He went to another doctor (5 week wait) who saw him and referred him for immediate surgery.
3) I agree there s/b more availability of HEALTH CARE, but YOU ARE STILL MISSING THE POINT. You said your friend’s father died because of lack of insurance. That is so very sad. But it was lack of availability of HEALTH CARE through some type of system (not necessarily insurance) that created that situation for that man and many others.
4) You’re sadly mistaken, I’m not spewing right wing rhetoric. YOU seem to be hung up on that.
5) If you think the government can effectively regulate the insurance companies (just as they have effectively regulated banks) you’ve missed the past couple of months of Congressional tug-of-war. Who do you think killed the Medicare buy-in and single-payer system?
Kind of a ‘non-agression pact’ when it comes to certain issues?
So, afer you are done with your fit, are you prepared to sit back and watch the lunatics take over? I too am very unhappy with SOME of the Health Bill. I just am not prepared to take my ball and go home and leave the game to Tea Baggers. I believe that too many folks frequent websites that already fit their beliefs…Over time, you begin to think you are a bigger force than you are and that a majority of folks beleive JUST LIKE YOU DO. It is the secular version of how Christians project what they think Jesus would want.And hey, it turns our Jesus wants what they want!!!…You better get a stiff upper lip and realize that you will be crying the next time someone like Bush or Palin are president…
True, but it is a medium to convey an important message to Americans who need to know what their elected representatives are doing.
Great job, Jane!
Welcome, dsue.
I was actually asking on of my “evil Libertarian friends” today why none of the Republicans were going against the mandate — easily the most unpopular part of the entire bill.
They said that the mandate was something that was good for Republicans, too. They want it to pass. They’re just demagoguing the details for political advantage.
So McCain (up for election, lots of seniors in his state) is all up everyone’s grill about reimportation. Dorgan’s up for reelection too, tough race. So they get the Senators who AREN’T up for reelection to tank it, and everyone goes away happy. Good theater for the voters + PhRMA gets what they want.
Happens again and again, people just don’t seem to notice. I’d actually been giving the DNC shit about the fact that nobody was busting Sessions on his bullshit. But it called attention to the White House’s own shitty deal, so they wouldn’t. That made it look like nobody could rebut Sessions and he actually had a point.
Very happy to have the opportunity to get that out there. Thanks for the plethora of Daily Kos diaries drawing attention to it.
Good job, again, Jane.
Love it that you took it to the Republicans on their own propaganda network and had the host as baffled into silence as Big Eddy was with your opening question on his show. And I especially love what you did to Lanny Davis.
So did you find out? What exactly was Rachel Maddow talking to Roger Ailes about?
Can’t see any other way to make progress. Do you?
ROTFLMAO
Marcos btw is not a dKos critic. And those who are on dKos are the usual suspects.
No one is looking for your permission. No one needs it. Have a nice day.
This is a huge problem, common at the end of the legislative process. There are two basic solutions. First, you can try to figure it out for yourself. Honest people can disagree about this one, and Glenn Greenwald, Nate Silver and a whole bunch of other people who are clearly trustworthy do disagree. They explain their reasons, as do we here at FDL. Even without understanding the detailed reasons for their opinions, you can form a working view by thinking about their arguments.
The alternative is to select a person or group whose views have been like yours in the past, and accept their view of this issue. When I want to see a movie, I tend to read Roger Ebert, because over the years he has liked movies that I liked, and hated movies I hated. After I see one he likes, I may hate it, but it was reasonable to look at his opinion to decide whether to go to that movie.
In the end, we are all struggling with a huge question: is the Senate Bill good enough? I come down on the side of no. I hope we can make it better in conference, or later. Other people think we can’t do better later if we don’t do something now. Tough call, isn’t it?
Desire for power works as an explanation. Rahm and Obama sacrifice everything for power but they don’t get the respect Jane has because she has not sacrificed.
Fox has plans.
How the hell was FAUX “using” Jane? There wasn’t even a rebuttal to her statements. :o)
She went to kick ass, and there was no ass there to be kicked. :o)
I saw that as the HealthCare Bowl, with the score 40-0, our side. :o)
Then you’d miss the reunion…
(((Sharkbabe))) Glad to see your true handle here!
Amen!
Kudos Jane!!! One of the KEY ways those in power keep the “proletariat” (those who sell their labor) divided, and hence less powerful, is to create and maintain divisions.
By stepping out of some of these “made to separate us” boxes of division, the dynamics can create unknowns for those who benefit most from keeping things just the way they are.
I fully agree that this bill will seriously damage the Democratic Party, at first mildly, and then profoundly.
This Senate Bill is nothing less than a number of senators drinking the Kool-Aid the corporate lobbyists have delivered them. And the senators are simply unable to kick the habit. They care not what happens to the rest of the Democratic Party as long as they sense THEY will have enough funding to be re-elected.
The Democrats, Independents, are going to face some serious Tough Love in the second decade of this century. And it simply WON’T be just from the bloggers and activists.
Again, Kudos, and thank you.
I am a regular Fox viewer ( hold your fire! ) and since your appearance on Fox and Friends I’m now a member of FiredogLake because of your appearance on the show. Say what you may about Foxs’ opinion-peddlers but they are actually diverse with the guests and they offer fiesty debate – much more than any other network out there. Thats the key to their high ratings. Both sides get to fight for their positions , even though the overall tone leans right, and its good entertainment. Watch with an open mind for a day or two and you’ll get my point. You expressed a view that is common on both sides and could offer an opportunity to bring some civility to the debate. You might be suprised at how many conservatives would like to see simple healthcare reform – no-special interest strings-attached -free healthcare for all human beings! If Dems are going to mess with our healthcare , MAKE them go all the way. Thats change and leadership we can all believe in but sadly few if any current politicians have the courage to fight for whats right.
Jane, remember these words:
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”
— Mahatma Gandhi
oh please. Fox news is a fascist propaganda station and all they did today was to use Jane for their own purposes. I have no doubt that she meant well. But at the end of the day, you had Fox news encouraging their viewers (teabaggers to a large extent) to come and sign the petition here. I would never want right wingers signing any petition of mine, no matter what.
Yeah I don’t see a way to overcome that either on a permanent basis, it will always have to be ad-hoc on issues that you agree on.
Can you spot the fallacy in this sentence? Honestly, you may as well show a Fellini film to kindergarteners.
And does Jane believe for a second that her new bestest friends in the GOP and the Teabagger movement will then turn around and help her pass a better bill if she helps kill this one?
Jane is exactly right on this. Filter out the racist halfwits and there are a lot of people drawn to the faux-populist messages of the Becks and O’Reillys who love to yammer about being there representing “the folks.” That they are shameless hucksters exploiting people’s ignorance and naivete is beside the point. There are a very large number of people on the right being screwed by the system who are desperate for someone to represent their interests. Any chance to make common cause with them against the Corporatists of both parties is to the benefit of Progressives, for exactly the reasons Jane has stated.
It’s one thing to keep asking WTF is the matter with Kansas, but the *real* political judo is bringing those Kansans back into the fold. We can always go back to fighting over snowflake babies later.
We need MORE SUNSHINE not less to disinfect this perverse incentive system between corporate interests and government.
Shocker! Banks with lobbying ties to Pols get Bailouts
America’s Robin Hoodlums, indeed.
And no one is looking for your permission on what I write. If you dont like what I wrote, dont read it. Close your eyes :)
Welcome to FDL, jimbob22.
Feingold. Sanders. Franken. Weiner.
Although I have not (unfortunately) had time to read all thread comments, I wanted to give a ‘shout out’ to this point.
Good on you, Jane!
Welcome !
Nobody is joining the baggers. If you were having a fight with someone and suddenly you were attacked by a pride of lions, I expect that you would both start to try to fend off the lions. It doesn’t mean we think the baggers are all good guys. It means that we have a point of agreement. I thought that’s what our country was about.
This is in response to TheCallUp’s diary on this subject, but it is directly related to this subject:
here’s what everyone is missing;
the player can be played and should be played when it hurts the neo con movement
jane played the player, she spoke the language republicans speak and she delivered the progressive message with a method that had them siding with progressives
this was brilliant
it was definately risky, since fox is known for highjacking guests, jane knew that’s what they are known for and she was prepared for a highjacking but instead they sat there enamored with the brutal eloquence of what jane had to say
sometimes you get to play the player and jane played these players like the conductor of the phil harmonic
I question how much progress would ultimately be made given the depth of the ideological divide. I’d love to think that minds could change and hearts could begin to beat as one — but I am skeptical.
Even Obama hasn’t been able to pull it off with his fellow corporatists on the other side of the aisle.
I had no idea they were going to do that and wouldn’t have wanted them to do it if they asked. It screws up our list and creates weird pockets and Mike Whitney hates it.
If Jane wants the bill killed and going on FOX advances the cause, then hell yes! That’s taking a swing with all you have!
I stand with Jane.
Let’s see, how would it be different? Obama = expanded wars and more saber rattling at Iran, getting ready for another illegal invasion or attack. McCain = same.
Obama = bank bailouts and bank bailouts and NO financial reform and NO firings (same as Bush/Cheney)
McCain = PROBABLY the same though there is possibility that he would NOT have bailed anyone out. That’s a win in his column.
Obama = selling out to the big corporate donors (insurance companies, big pharma, mercenaries (Xe))
McCain = probably the same thing.
Hmmmm. I see a pattern.
OK, how about torture, abuse, indefinite detention and domestic spying or holding people accountable AS PER THE LAW?
Obama = Bush = McCain.
Shit. No difference exist.
Define revenue, or better yet, have your accountants define it. Then have a government agency find violations to that provision (those auditors are really sharp, just ask Bernie Maddoff). Then have another try and prosecute or arbitrate any violations found. While your at it, find a lawyer for all suckers being swindled.
Jane–
Thank you for doing and going where many of us would refuse to do or go. I have a little ’cause’ of my own . . . and I can assure those who criticize you here that my experience has taught me this: Cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face (said another way, preaching ONLY to the choir) has been the path I’ve followed. It does not expand the base, it does not open doors for ‘teachable moments’, it does not move a cause forward.
So, again–thanks.
I’m not talking about changing minds, I’m talking about finding like minded people on an issue by issue basis.
Most teapartiers seem to be confused old white folks who are afraid of losing what little they have. I think it’s great that Jane spoke on a forum they might watch……lots of teachable moments, and I’m thrilled that Jane is getting that chance. Go Jane!
It appears that many nurses agree with Jane Hamsher. This Bill is a Corporate giveaway. KILL IT!
Yeah,well, I’m getting used to it. So many coked-up trust fund frats out there with no job prospects. Or maybe just 2 coked-up frats with a selection of online names. They must get paid by the word. They’re not smooth enough to handle a propaganda job more complex than that.
Had no idea? Really? Jesus…
bada bing0
I am behind you 100% Jane!
Jane
I saw that segment with you and Lannie Davis, he started sputtering when you called him out naming all his clients…it was priceless…another corporate shill bites the dust.
keep hammerin’ at ‘em Hamsher.
we got your back.
Goddammit, how were they using her? She got off a good rant, and there was no one there to counter it in any way whatsoever. :o)
I think Fox may have been just stupid enough to think that Hamsher would come across as some hybrid of Jane Fonda and Abbie Hoffman, and look ridiculous while infuriating the Faux faithful. Instead, she nailed the corporate shits, and did it with style, grace, and persistence. What’s not to like?
Hey! If a conservative had gone on Olberman or Maddow, and Keith or Rachel had let them say the equivalent of the things that Jane said, with ZERO reply, we’d all be shitting our pants at having a couple of our hero’s keeping shut while the opposition used their show to state their case.
C’mon, bluewind; cognate…cognate…
I hear this all the time.
It seems that whenever I argue for true health care reform, not this monster of a give-away to insurance companies, I hear “Oh you must want Palin to be president.”
To you and all those who say stuff like that, knock it off. It’s stupid, it’s old, it’s just like the fucking Bushies treated us when we said we were against the Iraq war. Well if we were against it we “must be traitors.”
It’s not either or. Either we take this piece of shit and write diaries praising it OR we must want Palin to be president. Bullshit!
Actually how it works in the Senate bill, is you add up all the premiums for revenue.
THen, if the MLR is lower than 80%, say 75%, what the carrier has to do is REBATE that 5% back to the premium payers. There are no premium caps.
So what that means, is they will charge whatever they want, but make sure they spend to the MLR. THe rest is their profit.
It’s literally sickening.
Yep, the all or nothing approach just ensures permanent gridlock.
srsly, what part of
“by any means necessary”
did these naifs miss ?
You are fond of your new turn of phrase, I see. *g*
Looks like the House will go along with the Senate:
In the inteview, Grijalva confirmed that House Dems were beginning to discuss the idea of revising the Senate bill in conference to move up the implementation date for insurance coverage and make it more in line with the earlier date in the House bill.
I asked Grijalva if he could support the bill if such a change were made, even if it lacked a public option or other similar concessions sought by liberals.
“It would sweeten it somewhat,” Grijalva said, “if they speed up the coverage mechanism.”
He added: “That would be something I’d have to look at very closely.”
Asked if he was suggesting that he’s open to supporting such an outcome, Grijalva answered in the affirmative, but insisted that he would have to evaluate the changes in conference before making any decision. He said House liberals would continue to push for a public component and a repeal of the anti-trust exemption for insurance companies. And he demanded that conference negotiations not merely “rubber stamp” the Senate bill.
Thank you, Jane, and keep up the good work. If we had an effective media, you would have many helpers in telling this story (both parties representing corporations, not the people who voted for them). My light bulb moment came several years ago when I read a book by William Greider entitled “Who Will Tell the People?”
Again late this summer, after being horrified by the ignorance and meanness of the Tea Partiers — and the local ones here are really mean — I suddenly felt a great sympathy for them. It came from realizing that, although they are truly ignorant of the real reason government is not working for them, they somehow intuitively know that they are being screwed. They have real-life reasons for their anger. They’ve been fed lies to cause them to blame socialism, Muslims, communism, Acorn, or any other made-up boogy man instead of the fact that their elected representatives have completely sold out to moneyed interests, mostly corporations, and truly do not work for the good of ordinary people. Recently, when Sen. Snowe said she had been talking to her “people” about their concerns with the senate’s “reform” bill, she was actually referring to corporate lobbyists and not the voters who elected her.
We no longer have government of, by, and for the people but government of, by, and for the corporations and the lobbyists they hire to write the laws for our incompetent and corrupt representatives on both sides of the aisle in Congress and in the White House.
Suburban Guerrilla recently suggested (can’t find it now) that we need to launch an all-out campaign to strip corporations of legal “personhood.” That would go a long way toward putting the blame for our social ills where it truly belongs.
Anyhow, thanks to you for saying what needs to be said.
Well, good luck. The way I see it, the same people helping on one issue will be the ones fighting the next, but maybe that’s the only way it can be.
I still refuse to ally with those who hate me and my relatives. But I’m funny that way.
Whatever healthcare THEY pass (the criminals in DC), they MUST make themselves subject to it. They MUST get the same coverage/plan that the AVERAGE American is stuck with…and on their dime, not mine. Let’s see how eager they are to foist this shit on us then.
Thank you Jane Hamsher.
Yes! Go Jane Go. You’re the bravest person I know. I’ve had cancer once. Lucked out (so far); I know the fear it generates. The corporate worms know they can’t scare you. I’m an old green, was for Cynthia McKinney. She’s great; tore Rumsfeld a new one. Going on Fox was masterful. I’m in Oklahoma these days, and try to get people to see our common ground. It’s going to take everyone ganging up on the corporatists to stop their push for slavery. Slavers and pirates sail under the black flag: no quarter. That’s a two way street. They deserve no mercy. The Fox folks know that, too. Or they soon will (hopefully). Uh oh, think I hear a predator drone. Gotta go.
How did I suddenly become the voice of reason on this explosive thread? *g*
Maybe you didn’t notice what this thing does to women, or don’t care.
Passing no bill is better than passing a bad bill, that is where this thing is right now. Why can’t you understand that?
Instead you impugn her character, well right back at you. Why do you support a bill that is so horrid to women? What is your ugly motive?
Then it is done! Why do you need to protest, vote or even care…There all the same. I somewhat agree with the idea that corporations run everything…However, to hand over the reins to the freakin tea baggers is stupid….I appreciate your hurt feelings but you cannot be serious that they are all the same…..
Jane is getting a bit full of herself…I love her to death but enough is enough…
That is actually an interesting observation.
I don’t think he was actually trying to share in the bounty, however. There was a war over who was going to get stakeholder money, and it was extremely contentious between the parties.
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/08/19/the-baucus-caucus-phrma-insurance-hospitals-and-rahm/
“Reaching out” to the GOP was a way to find a scapegoat for ditching the public option and anything else that wasn’t on the laundry list of deliverables in Rahm’s deals. But the GOP wouldn’t cooperate. Not that they wouldn’t do the exact same thing if the sides were switched, but they calculated that their political advantage lay in moving as a block and letting the Democrats wear this one. They may change their tune at the end if the price is right — I imagine they’re still negotiating.
2/3 of the way down on the Fox & Friends page (OK, it takes some getting used to, linking over there) is a nice pic of Jane, over a link to the petition. I checked it, and the link works.
You see, that is exactly why in my opinion you made a huge mistake to go to Fox News. They did not even mention that you are a progressive or liberal. I really felt bad seeing you being used by Fox News (thats how it looked to me at least), because I really like your views in general, especially your attacks on Lieberman.
My advice: Stay away from the libertarians. They may be intellectually honest, but that does not change the fact that they are idiots.
Jane I stand with you also, and yes this scares them. ALOT! Just by judging the comments of the Vichy/Got Mine Democrats at Democratic Underground, this alone is proof that what you did was brilliant.
Go get em’ Jane!
bada bing0 jane, nicely put
I’m one of those nurses that stands with Jane, although I am not in that particular organization. The Physicians For A National Health Program has over 15,00 members and they came out against the Senate Bill today.
Raise the drawbridge!
Probably not applicable, I just like saying it.
Who called DKos progressives , other than themselves?
I see them as supporting the status quo, DLCers, hill,bill and Rahm.
Weren’t they for John Edwards in the primaries? Who Feingold said was running on his voting record?
I have a hard time remembering that because I live in an area where lots of evangelical Marine families live. They are in the wars are God’s work and Obama is a Kenyan Marxist Muslim Terrorist camp. If I can find common cause with them even when we aren’t together on the war, it makes it even more clear that aligning with the left on the things we have in common is not blasphemy nor is it pixie dust.
there are times both sides use each other, to both ends
my friend, recognizing those opportunities are what makes an effective leader
I’m funny the other way. I don’t hold grudges. And I try to be willing to take people in all their inconsistent human packages. (Not that I suceed very often, but it’s a goal.)
Hurt feelings? Huh? I’m not “hurt”, I’m freakin’ PO’d and ready to deck any and all Congress criminals that cross my path. That ain’t a hurt feeling, that is a desire to put a hurt ON someone.
While enemy may be too strong a term, I think this sums up what we need to do:
Jane on Fox, teaching and reaching out (and reducing people to spluttering incoherence as a bonus) is a step in that direction. In an us against them mentality we really need to understand who the them is, and accept that this changes with the issue.
Constitutional law, freedom of religion, rule of law. I have been talking to them for years about legalizing pot.
Stay healthy, jackbuddha.
I think you’re forgetting what’s at stake here.
You know, you’ve just reminded me that I still have to sign the letter!
Sorry. I’ve been so wound up over my misunderstanding of what was going on that I forgot to sign it. Doing so now.
Jane, I’m sorry, btw.
I’m with Jane on this
The Senate bill looks like something written by lobbyists for the benefit of the insurance industry.
Anything we can do to kill this bill is fair game , the insurance industry lobbyists who wrote this piece of crap surely weren’t concerned about fairness
Damn. You are ALL crazy teabaggers and birthers and haters and…what else?
Why do you hate Amerika? What’s good for Aetna is good for Amerika!
I don’t think just any of us should go on Fox, but Jane can pull it off. The are-you-trying-to-kill-30 million-people argument is the usual sort of blackmail. Same as when you try to stop a destructive industry from coming to your town and they hold the “jobs” over your head. This bill might help some people and it might hurt others, but what it will definitely do is strengthen the industry cartel and even more importantly it will reinforce our corrupt political process. It’s that corrupt process that gives us all of the crap policy that we’re suffering under. And the sustaining bedrock of that corrupt process is the ignorance of the population. If Jane can go into ignoroid central, spread around a little accurate info and walk away with a couple of converts, I say more power to her.
LOL. I like saying it too.
who are you? No one has prove anything to you. What I will say is this people are sick of being talked down to with hollow slogans in the place of leadership or action or for that matter actual thoughts.
anyone play chess?
you can sacrifice your queen for a winning game, it’s beautiful when it’s done
you can sacrifice a full rook for two lowly pawns if they are connected, they will eventually queen
it’s the end game that matters, the middle game sets it up
Have you ever watched Fox and Friends? We’re not talking about Fox News Sunday here. We’re talking about the biggest bunch or race bating, corporation loving, mad dog Repukes on television. They are barely one step above Glenn Beck. I know how these people think. My parents are both from the Panhandle of Texas and I’ve listened to there particular brand of hatred my whole life. For Jane to choose to ally herself with the bottom feeders is beyond the pale. They are not her friends, they are not my friends, they are not your friends. They are birther racists who push the “Obama is a Muslim Terrorist” meme day in and day out and defend those that have called for his assassination. I have no respect for anyone that would lend any credence to this trash.
Would you want right wingers helping you onto a life raft during a ship wreck? Would you help save them in an emergency?
Or stand aside and wait for a liberal person.
Good on ya, Jane. I’ve been saying for a long time that the only way to make our broken system work again is to finish the job of breaking it; to stop feeding the meter. In this case the meter is Washington, and we feed it each time we vote.
Despite my better judgment, and after several cycles not voting, I worked very hard to get this president elected, to get people to the polls. I took his “change” bait, hook line and sinker. I and thousands of others worked hard to change our state from Red to Blue (NC).
But there is no true change in this game, only which suits have the ball. In the end, they’re still suits – with little or no understanding of the real world, let alone we who live in it.
I often think the only way change will come – that Washington will sit up and take notice – is through a nationwide boycott of an election. ‘Tis but a dream of course, so adept are both parties at convincing enough of us that this, THIS, is the most important election of our lives!! “This election” being, of course, whatever election is next.
So every two years our legislators go to great expense to play the little game of musical chairs they call Democracy – while we watch in rapt attention (in 10-minute segments sponsored by Viagra, of course).
Those who refuse to participate are chastized as “not having any right to complain” or of being apathetic. This is bullshit designed to perpetuate the broken system, to keep it limping along. Has anyone stopped to consider what would happen if we all just – well, stopped?
I have, and each cycle of “new” governance deepens my belief that a full-on boycott is the only way to get these morons’ attention. Imagine a presidential election in which less than 20 percent of the electorate shows up.
The older I get, the more I dream of that November day.
http://www.themalcontent.com
I think everyone in DC knows that Jane is no conservative.
Great work Jane
the old divid in conquers works when people are divided.
the last thing people in power want is a united popular movement against the corporate state.
Also Jane is helping spread the word that Progressives hate this Bill.
No need to let the dumb Dems in Congress sink the progressive movement, let them sink by themselves.
Wow! I guess you can join Kucinich in a corner. Please take it down a notch and realize that things are not as bad as you are making them out to be. I understand and share some of your frustation but Geez, eveything on the web is fuck this, fuck them. You are already a evangelistic teabagger when you talk about fellow americans like this…I am not a boy scout but the commentary on this website is like a liberal version of Glen Beck.
You’re quoting Gandhi to justify the mentality that we should think about health care as an us versus them proposition – in which the “them” is apparently the Democratic party.
You haven’t read much Gandhi, have you?
You are correct that the thinking on this thread reflects us versus them thinking, I will agree with that. The way some people on this thread talk, if AETNA supported rainbows and puppies they’d oppose them, too.
This is a brilliant tactical move. Can’t wait to see the others. I’d bet there’s another by nightfall.
Jane has the right stuff to start a revolution.
Talk about courage.
You join forces with those who you have some common interests and values.Face it, the dem. and repub. party both left their core values a looong time ago.
Bush did it to the repubs.The clintons did it to the dem party. The Third Way is not my way.NAFTA was pushed by bill.He said our health care costs and environmental laws hampered business.Is he for health care reform? The one thing that would really help corporations and business to thrive in the US.
I think FOX is less crafty than you think.
I’m guessing they are still in the very simple Republican mode of ‘bring Obama down’ and are using her to help do that on this issue. I don’t think they have thought it out past the next 24 hours.
Does this mean FOX is not in on the same NWO plan as Obama?
Well gee, there goes another conspiracy theory bit the dust. Oh well, there will be dozens more where that came from.
lolz!
Jane you kicked ass on the Ed Show last night. You spoke the truth but the Senate is not listening
“Winning back the base”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30031533/
I have never thought about being attacked by a pride of lions!!! I guess you have more to worry about than i do. Teabaggers are a joke. to imply that you would stand shoulder to shoulder with them because you both realize a couple of similar points about our government, does not rationalize having anything to do with them…
That’s when you explain to them if this sham of a bill passes Palin will have a much better chance. So many folks have no clue what is in this bill.
I’m not sure the same rules apply in eleventy-dimensional chess, but I am pretty certain that sneaking pieces off the board when you think no one is looking is frowned upon in any version, and that is what the Dems are currently engaging in. That, and yelling look at those DFHs, trying to ruin it for everybody!!!! Get them!!!
I fucking despise the petit bourgeois on the left even more than I do those on the right. At least the right doesn’t pretend to give a shit about the poor. This minivan-driving lady is an embarrassment to all of us. She needs to get out of her little fucking suburban bubble of comfort and see what the real world is like. Many American’s are poor and sick. Maybe dying. If this bill doesn’t pass then there is no secondary effort. Killing the bill means killing all reform. She just doesn’t want her taxes raised. Even if it means saving some peoples’ lives. She belongs on FOX News. She’s a conservative.
HEY LADY! NEWSFLASH! THIS REFORM ISN’T FUCKING ABOUT YOU OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU. IT’S ABOUT THE POOR AND UNINSURED. YOUR OPINION IS INSIGNIFICANT. ASK THEM WHAT THEY THINK.
courage?
writing on a blog post or going on a television show to tell the hosts exactly what they want to hear does not take courage.
I would not have done it two years ago. It’s not a place to go if you’re nervous in front of a camera.
So it’s really 50% OFF! (the already 200% marked up clearance sale item) ALL ITEMS MUST GO! (it’s mandatory)
TOP QUALITY brand names like Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Aetna, Nationwide (but you’ve gotta take the one your boss picks)
Thank you, Jane. What you’re accomplishing is incredible. You are getting the message out that we’re all in this together.
Lets see if we can get him to name ’10 the ‘Year of the Progressives’.
Geez Jane ya sure hit a nerve on this one !
Thanks, Knox. Always good to have you on board.
Welcome all trolls. Remember when it was said that contesting the 2000 election would be too disruptive for the country? How did that work out for you?
Slowly rocking in a chair on the porch is fun for the aged.
but will ally yourself with and defend a WH, Congressional and Party Leadership standing in the way of full civil rights for fellow americans ?
if we’re going to go the absolutist route, there’s no such thing as a little repression.
Great job, Jane!
Ya think?
;)
Until they fear the left nothing changes. Put the fear of God in them and they’ll get out of the way, they’re basically cowards.
jane, let me ask you an honest straight up question: if the bill that came out of conference was identical to the house bill, would you support it?
I am commenting on jane’s appearance on fox, I believe it is a brilliant sascrifice
*g*
There’s some dirt on your knuckles dude. (not to be confused with grease under your nails, which is acceptable if you’re a mechanic)
Wow, there’s nothing like someone daring to step out of the predefined allowable boundaries to generate the paroxysms of rage in those who don’t think very clearly but know damn well what they believe. I think i forgot to say it earlier, so thank you Jane for continuing this fight and staying out front to take the heat.
ooh, is the clever net speach? Welcome all Teabaggers, you lord, Glenn Beck awaits you…
How it should work – I had some tests done at the local hospital. The cost was a little over $1000.00. I paid less than $9.00 because I am on Medicare. Just think what the country would be like if everyone could have that.
No, satyadaimoku,
They are the devil. Satan. Scratch. Beelzebub. They are the driving force behind everything that is wrong with our political system right now. I won’t blame Democrats or Republicans. They are doing what most of us would do in their place.
It took about a decade for this situation to “mature”. When was the last time corporate interests failed the American people? Answer: 1929.
While conditions are not the same as then, the end result will be the same, or maybe worse.
While everybody is attacking those of another party affiliation, the corporations are laughing at all of us. All the way to the bank.
No one is saying they are her friends.
I’m not sure what you would like Jane to say to you. It’s abundantly clear why she went on Fox and Friends.
Frankly, when I saw the headline my first thought was why the fuck does she even think she has to explain.
Get the fuck over it already.
I sure would. IT is a real foundation upon which improvements can be made. The senate bill? Not even remotely. It is beyond repair…unless they remove the mandate. Then it is just a wasted little bill that tweaks healthcare but doesn’t do much to improve it. The mandate is the poison pill, unless there is a public option.
“They did not even mention that you are a progressive or liberal…”
Well, there we have it.
When Jane is on Faux ripping the assholes for purchasing congressmen and women like they were tomatoes at WalMart, there are SOOO many conservatives doing that, that it’s just hard to tell the players without a program. Why, just the other day, I saw Michelle Malkin and Ann Coulter appearing on Rachel Maddow’s show, doing a great tag-team shtick as they complained about how the big Health Care company’s stocks are taking off like a rocket because Team Obama is giving Joe Lieberman prostate-gland massages with their tongues.
It’s easy to see why anyone would get confused about Jane’s politics.
No one has ever called her a liberal on any of her earlier appearances.
Bluewind, were you fired from congress, too? :o)
I get that. And though I think others here think I’m an Obamabot or Kossack or whatever, I totally get your Fox appearance, a savvy political move, like Obama invoking Reagan as a ‘transformative President’. I get speaking to these people in a dialect they get and viscerally respond to for your own ends.
I guess my questions — beyond my anger at those who blithely dismiss the rhetoric of some of these people — go to what happens after the bill is defeated? I’ve tried to follow this more closely than the average Joe, but I’m in no way en expert on all the nuances of the different plans. I’d like to see at least the House bill pass — but where would the other members of this ad hoc coalition be in the fight over that?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the whole point of Libertarianism to be completely opposed to anything near a Public Option or Single Payer or even Medicare?
I guess I’m asking whether you think common cause with them will ultimately lead to a better bill. If the goal is only to kill the Senate bill, I see that — I just wonder about the conditions afterward and how much that’s entered into your calculus.
Again diluting your brand. Doofus isn’t smart. Fox isn’t on your side and their viewers can’t be won over. They can use you though, and have. Congratulations!
to all that think this bill is fine;
I think rahm can get the rest of the progressives on board if they remove the mandate
I am among that group that wouldn’t mind the bill without a mandate
forcing someone to buy from a private corporation, and having tax payer dollars collect for that private corporation is worse then “immoral” it’s unconscionable
Good for you…I guess I’ve been too black for most of my life to be as sanguine.
bill, hill and rahm are fine with destroying the democratic party. They like the Third Way.
Just as gbush and cheney did not worry about destroying the republican party.The kinds of people who blow up frogs and shoot their friends in the face are just just destructive.
bill pushed a republican agenda. His private life hurt the democratic party even more.hill appealed to the “working men.” ie white folks.She did not know WE had moved on.
I take it you therefore refuse to have anything to do with the clothes, food, electronic devices, homes, utilities, or anything else produced by those satanic corporations? I imagine for example you are currently using a computer produced by a workers commune and connecting to the internet via magical fairy pixy dust? Because if you aren’t, then by your life choices you are recognizing that corporations produce a huge amount of value for ordinary people (in addition to causing suffering in a variety of ways) and that actual policy deliberation requires an understanding of complexity and a nuanced view of the role of corporations.
Courage?
Neither does capitulating away any chance for real reform. However, facing your angry constituents after they realize you sold them down the river just might take some. Looks like we’re gonna find out.
we don’t need fox on our side but we can use the neo con weapon against themselves, that’s what’s happened here
If they remove the mandate, there will be leverage to do another round of reform. If they don’t, it’s done. The insurers own us in perpetuity.
She’s in the entertainment business and she wants to be important and get a TV show. That’s ok if she is effective. And she started this site and and this site is important and basically constructive.
I do not know clever net speech. Are you a new hire? Reminds me of Ted Stevens and the tubes.
Libertarians are likely to be against the individual mandates. They don’t support our government making us pay for any product.
Policy deliberation! That’s the service they provide. I was wondering what all that seemingly obstructionist, unnecessary paperwork that drowned my grandma in worry was about.
Very well done, Jane. The more you do, the better.
Excuse me, in my camp? I do not believe this is a good bill, I would love to see it fail. I am however appalled that this supposed Progressive has become so convinced of her own infallibility that she would go on a TV show that promotes the birthers, the deathers, “Obama is a Muslim Terrorist”, defends those that have called for his assassination. Don’t believe me, ask Chris Wallace. Chris Wallace has derided their hate and walked off their show for their disgusting right wing lies and attacks on the President. And this is who she chose?
Jane knows who these people are. She knows what kind of hatred they spew day in and day out. That’s why she posted her defense. I’d say it’s very clear what she has become.
Either it hasn’t entered into her calculus, or she doesn’t care. In any case, she’s so far refused to answer the question.
Thanks. You too. I walk, bike, take my medicine (buttons & buds). Be bailing back to the boonies soon as my lease here is up. Someone mentioned revolution. There it is. The hazard is shit floats. Gotta watchout for that one.
I know you’re not the type to stir things up
FireDogLake should run a poll:
Should Jane Do More Interviews On Fox News?
1. Yes
2. No
3. Unsure
I just can’t believe that I’m in the minority for thinking she shouldn’t do it again, but I guess it won’t be the first time everyone disagrees with me. :)
Neither does capitulating away any chance for real reform
The word capitulating is well chosen. The actual motivation for the anger revealed in this thread is due to the sense that we have to go along with a policy choice made by douchebags like Joe Lieberman, that has been produced because of the inordinate influence of insurance companies and the like. I am also pissed off that this is the case. But that anger is interfering with a sober analysis of the actual merits of the bill in front of us, a bill that would ensure more Americans access to health care than ever before. It’s also fueling delusional fantasies of alternative legislation that will never, ever happen.
Next Saty’s gonna lecture us on the free market and competition, and how a government subsidized monopoly is GOOD for us because we deserve to be sold junk to weed out the stupid. It’s survival of the richest.
I just saw Jane for the first time. I’m proud to be associated, in my small way, with her efforts.
I’ve been hearing a lot of criticism of Jane and FDL from people basically arguing “Even if you’re right, it’s in the wrong way, and if I’m wrong, it’s in the right way.” Now where have we heard that line of “reasoning before?” Wait, it’ll come to me…. I think it rhymes with ‘shellac floor.’
How much do you watch Fox? Just curious, you seem to have a lot of opinions on the subject. How many hours a day do you watch?
If this bill passes, there is no next round of reform. Democrats are not going to be more powerful or less craven than they are now. Insurers will be richer and more powerful with a captive, mandated customer base and they will not let such a cash cow go. Voters will not trust “reformers” as soon as they find out their new insurance is going to cost them 8% of their income in premiums and another 10% in out-of-pocket costs.
In the long run, this bill will bankrupt more people. People will die then too.
This is a good explanation for your decision and a good decision given your argument about corporate giveaway and conflict of interest between the party in power and the people they represent …. but you definitely take a hit for having argued against other liberals going on Fox … but mostly here’s to hoping your bigger message is not lost as a result.
I’m with Jane and those who bemoan the Democratic parties shift to a massive multi-billion dollar transfer of wealth to the insurance industry while not offering competing alternatives such as a Public Option or medicare expansion (choice for chrissake) that Obama campaigned and which was part of the Democratic Party platform I voted for.
Does Markos still hate gays and lesbians? Does Markos still think their should be a ban on gays and lesbians in the military?
Has Markos ever apologized for writing his letter in 1993 saying how gays and lesbians did not belong in the U.S. military? Is the DailyKos a CIA front and meant to make the “left” seem looney even as he tries to “defend” them on MSNBC and NBC?
This is from an article Markos Moulitsas Zuniga wrote in the American Prospect in 2006:
“I was also a Republican. As a 17-year-old precinct captain in 1988, not even old enough to vote, I helped deliver one of the district’s best precinct performances for Henry Hyde. I had a framed picture of me with George H. W. Bush….Of course, that was a different time, a different Republican Party. And I was a different kind of Republican — always socially liberal, committed to fiscal sanity, and willing to pay more than lip service to the concept of national service. Talk was cheap. I was going to wear combat boots.”
Funny how Markos and Obama come from similar places in Illinois. Markos is the phony here, not Jane. This false attack of Jane as a “bourgeois liberal” are typical slurs, but the real insider is Markos who has admitted that is his main goal in all of this.
By attacking Jane Hamsher, Markos assures that he continues to be accepted by the likes of NBC, MSNBC and the Obama administration.
Markos/DailyKos are just criticizing Jane Hamsher to maintain their touchy-feely insider relationships with the people screwing up America.
It’s going to bankrupt more people than EVER. Do you have insurance? Do you ever have to use it? Have you ever had a chronic illness? Have you ever had to depend on isurance to save your life or the life of your child? It’s clear that you have no fucking clue what is coming for us. This is a fucking insurance bailout that is going to financially cripple millions of people, and kill thousands. But I guess that is okay with you because you don’t seem to think you’ll be one of them. That ideaoligy belongs in the other side of the isle. Perhaps you should run along.
As an activist within my state, one of the things I’ve learned is that sometimes you have to make some pretty unholy alliances. There are really many different kinds of activists, but some people often become party activists, while some others (who may even be fairly loyal to a party) are squarely issue activists, caring far more about policy than who, necessary, is in office. A lot of the times, the party activists feel betrayed when issue activists go against the grain, or work with those who are enemies to their party, even if the whole reason is the party itself is pumping out trashy policy.
In Massachusetts, I’ve run a little into this trying to block the slot industries from getting into the state. We’ve been successful thus far in part because we’ve been able to divide the opposition (there are many different kinds of industries taht want slots, be it race tracks, casinos, tribal casinos, slot parlors, etc. — it’s not monolithic), whilst creating a wide group of volunteers spanning the entire political spectrum. In particular, one of the active groups in the coalition against is the Mass Family Institute — a homophobic, right-wing, James-Dobson-esque ‘Christian Coalition’ of people. They led the opposition to marriage equality in our state. As someone who is gay, I have found it very hard to think that such a group be allowed in the alliance and was first against them being in it, but they’ve actually done their part in the effort, so for the greater good I hold my nose and have organized with them. If it helps stop slots, then that’s the important thing. It’s not like I have to be friends with them.
While the activist right and the activist left may not like each other much, there are actually some issues we do agree on, at least to some extent. We can stand fairly united in being tired of the way both parties have been bought and sold by the wealthy special interests. I’m not sure how much I want to ‘work’ with them, but I don’t mind the fact that we find ourselves on the same side of the issue and plan our strategy accordingly.
Just a quick correction. Medicare Part D was passed in 2003.
I would also like to request that the remarkable number of mind readers who know just what was in Jane’s head (different from what she has plainly stated of course) take a stab at telling us all tonight’s winning Lotto numbers too. I for one promise to donate a significant portion of my winnings to progressive causes.
Exactly — it’s like inserting a fact virus into their matrix of lies and hypocrisy.
Jane, My one regret… I wish only that you had done the “dumbed down” thing for our amusement… I don’t know what “corporate welfare” means so I looked it up!
They also won’t support something like the excise tax on the wealthy, which is a big feature of the House bill. So when the Senate bill is killed, what then?
They would tend not to squawk over something like taxing Union Health Care Benefits, which is in the Senate bill and is bullshit. But Libertarians don’t like unions, unless these are the newly wonderful Magical Unicorn Libertarians I’ve heard tell of, who are farting fairy dust all over this blog.
Because the Libertarians I’m familiar with think working folks should all be on their own against the giant corporations who will sell them health care, and the invisible hand of the market will work it out.
Or am I mistaken?
JH would take a show in the MSM in a heartbeat. Even on Fox. So what? If she can get a deal, that is what she apparently wants. Another talking head? I think JH is a fine writer.
Why? It would appear that on this issue, they see eye to eye. Just think, he’d get liberal creds for having her on and she’d get a platform to voice her opinion to all the birthers and deathers out there. Seems like maybe it’s a good fit. I have no problem with what she’s saying. I’m a 60 year old woman who remembers back room abortions. My problem is with her choice of allies and her therefore implied support of their message.
No they don’t. Not unless they are regulated to within an inch of their life. They pollute, kill, poison with wild abandon unless tightly controlled.
Privatization is NOT the way to improve things. What lies that way is Blackwatering and Halliburtoning wars, fighting wars for corporate profits (already doing it). Invading countries to steal their natural resources (already doing it). Murdering people by denying them treatment (by calling it “experimental”) or putting a cap on what payout you will get (insurance companies). You get premiums jacked to the moon, copays jacked to Mars, and deductibles jacked to Jupiter (insurance companies, like now and with the senate bill).
Privatization is theft. The government never ever has a right to force you to pay money to any private for-profit entity. NEVER.
How many times a day do you accuse people of being similar to Glen Beck? Beck is a psychotic Hate-monger, who incidentally lied about the death of his mother. I myself have also been similarly insulted with this comparison. Do you have any proof that any comments here are similar to Beck’s? Or are you just a lying sack of troll crap?
damn, my bad. I thought you were among the many ‘pragmatists’ arguing in favor of the bill.
I would take a show on fox, of course I would do it my way, if jane could do it her way on fox I surely hope she’d take the gig
I’ve soberly analysed the bill in front of us and determined it needs to be scrapped and a new one proposed. That’s really not that hard of a concept. What’s congress have on the schedule in January, rubber stamping another war spending spree?
my brother in-law & i both very liberal have talked about the far left & far right going around the bend & meeting up it’s the corporation who are the enemy. keep up the heat jane
Not much. But enough to realize the obvious. They are a fascist propaganda station. Do you disagree?
Or, you know, not. Nice “psychoanalysis” of the thinking and motivation of everyone who disagrees with you. Much easier to just dismiss those wild-eyed hippies as irrational and overly emotional than use your cool vulcan logic to address the points they are making. Why taking such an unsupportable position almost suggests you may be a tad on the disingenuous side! Nah, couldn’t be.
Okay, then, if you were starving would you accept food from a winger? If your house is burning down do you check to see if all the firefighters are liberals? See how absurd this can get?
Don’t give up the fight, Jane. This bill is an abomination.
That’s your problem. You are dismissive of those who have a lot to offer. In my experience, libertarians are exceedingly smart, well-read people who see a different path to solving many of our problems. If you were more open-minded perhaps you would learn something and find that there is a lot of common ground between progressives and libertarians.
mods, please kill the link on 416
There ARE NO MERITS THAT MAKE UP FOR MANDATES, NO MERITS THAT MAKE UP FOR NO COST CONTROLS.
No merits that make up for medical bankruptcy which is still guaranteed under this bill. No merits make up for out-of-control premiums, deductibles, and copays that ARE OK in this bill.
You adamantly refuse to address the copays and deductible loophole, or the anti-trust loophole.
Why is that Rahm? Address the issues.
Maddow has quickly become just another form of Corporate Astro-Turf.
On a show a while back Dr. Maddow decried that other astro-turf guy for pretending to be a non-profit, when really he is just a shill for the industries that pay him.
Well Maddow pretends to be a journalist, when really her show is just a vehicle to legitimize the democratic establishment positions. Maddows show is corporate astro-turf.
For me the peek of her show was when she went after Obama about preventative detention. In my opinion, she cleary got the message after that, and the quality of her show declined. Now she only goes after wack jobs like Cohen or the out of power right wing.
When guest representing present power come on her show, its all softballs (see any interview with Barney Franks, or last nites shill-a-thon with Ezra Kline and Thomas Friedman..which incidently, will be the last time I watch her show. I see no reason to waste time with more corporate propoganda when there are real news shows like DemocracyNow.org)
Seriously, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Who exactly will be worse off after Health Care Reform passes? Who are going to be the thousands killed if it passes? I’m not asking you who is worse off compared to single payer or the House bill; I’m asking you who will be worse off compared to the only politically plausible alternative to this health care bill, which is nothing at all.
In fact, proving health insurance to 30 million Americans will save tens of thousands of lives.
No, jsut someone who gets out every now and then and does not sit reading KOS or FIREDOG all day everyday…
Hot thread hot thread!
Can we make the thousand comment challenge?
Come on baby! Darn that son of a gun is hot!
A true server torture test!
I certainly hope there’s something to read into it. I’d like to think Rachel is way too smart to keep inviting people on once they become Republican shills.
Crummy analogy….You would compare standing with teabaggers, who seem to have a real problem with folks who are not just like them and have signs calling Obama every name in the book to a professional fireman whose job has nothing to do with politics…Why not ask me what i would take to read if stuck on a desert island…Just about as interesting or relavent..
The passage of this bill will not prevent me from dying due to a lack of coverage, nor will it prevent bankruptcy. I’m young, healthy, and self-employed. This bill, and the House one too for that matter, look like they’re tailor-made to specifically royally screw me.
The insurance that I will be compelled, by force-of-law, to purchase contains no provisions for controlling deductibles, nor co-pays. The expectation that I pay out-of-pocket for my healthcare expenses is still the de facto condition of my life; regardless of the passage of this bill. The incredibly expensive high-deductable individual coverage that I used to pay for was dropped for a reason. It did me no good. In the event of anything catastrophic I was going to be wiped out, and in the event of anything routine I was paying full sticker-price from my savings. This bill changes nothing about that, but will now force me to continue to pay for that artifice of security.
So, my response to your position is, you’re asserting something about what this legislation will and won’t accomplish that is completely uncertain, and based on my non-unique circumstance; is wholly unconvincing.
The efficacy of your claim that this bill actually helps is predicated entirely on the notion that the subsidies are sufficient. Which they are not, neither in quantity or structure. Marcy Wheeler has cataloged the shortfalls in subsidies that one can expect as commonplace, and they are not at all indexed to real future prices, so as the inflationary pressures of the subsidies push premiums up, the shortfalls will become even more dramatic.
So, as one of those people who you think you’re advocating for; you’re not helping me, but thanks for trying.
Signed. I also pledge to make a contribution tonight.
Jane, please consider raising the target amount. It’s already near the current goal.
Oh, give it a rest.
Have you watched Fox and Friends? If not, if you have a really strong stomach, tune in some morning and listen to the vomit coming from them. Chris Wallace will no longer appear on their show because it is too hate-filled. Would you be offended if she went on Glenn Beck? Would that be over the line? Appears that for many people here, any means justify the end.I have no problem with her position, only with her choice of friends.
(Replying to satyadaimoku @343, despite the wishes of my browse):)
A fair amount, actually. But apparently that was too obtuse, so in simpler terms:
I do NOT think we are picking the correct us and them – I think (perhaps naively) that there are many Fox-viewing, Republican-voting sorts of people with whom we could and should make common cause on many issues. Right now the big THEM for many of us SHOULD be large corporate interests that have suborned our system. The more we think of our fellow citizens as THEM, the less chance we have of accomplishing the things that many of US – whether R, D, I or any other letter of your choosing – hope to see.
any woman in need of full reproductive heatlh services.
THE PRESIDENT: “Well, first of all, I think it’s important to understand, April, that the Senate and the House bills are 95 percent identical. There’s 5 percent differences, and one of those differences is the public option. But this is an area that has just become symbolic of a lot of ideological fights. As a practical matter, this is not the most important aspect to this bill — the House bill or the Senate bill.
And the idea behind the public option was is that alongside these choices that you could choose from in the private insurance industry, you could also potentially get a government-managed plan. But it was only going to apply to a few million people who were buying into the exchange. So it wasn’t like suddenly everybody would just go out there and buy a government-run plan; most people will still get health insurance from their employers. What will happen is, is that if you don’t get health insurance through your employers, you can then go to this what we’re calling a health care exchange, get a subsidy, and buy health insurance through that exchange.” —President Barack H. Obama in an answer to April Ryan of the American Urban Radio Networks from December 21, 2009
Yes, Obama just loves those “ideological” people who are “liberals and progressives.” The Obama administration has gone to war against liberals and progressives and anyone who does not agree with Precious Obama and his bad policies which only could make George W. Bush. Obama is a LIAR of omission. He knew all along his healthcare plan would be a privatzied one. Don’t forget the role of the American Medical Association in all of this. Obama lied about the role of the special interests all though his campaign speeches. Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod are Obama’s brain trust. Obama might be the first MICROCHIP President in Human History. Obama talks like a robot if you listen carefully. Obama is disgusting to listen to.
The Obama administration have rabbitt ears!!!
Read the full Transcript of Barack H. Obama with April Ryan @: http://aprildryan.com/?p=533
Damn, all this pearl clutching is embarassing. flibberdegibbets on frickin parade. Let’s try to get a little grip on ourselves, dears.
Using the neo con weapon (what is that, Foxy Friends?) against whom? Neo-cons or fellow Dems? Some help is more damaging to take than helpful.
Exactly, you have NO idea what I am talking about because you refuse to live in the reality based community and you refuse to listen to facts. I feel sorry for you. Have fun on Fantasy Island.
So Jane says exactly what the networks want to hear. Betcha’ think MSNBC is liberal…NYTimes too.Sometime get up really early and watch Morning Joe.
New thought ….not out of some tired old play book.Bullying works best in grade school.
Please. Libertarians are a bunch of idiots who believe that government is the problem. Nothing in common with real progressives.
Mandates are necessary in order to ensure that premiums don’t soar after insurance companies are required to enlist the sick.
The idea that there are no cost controls is a joke. MedPAC, comparative effectiveness research, the tax on high priced plans, more resources for preventative care and primary care, pilot programs to move the system away from fee-for-service – there are a lot of things being done to try to control costs. No, they aren’t perfect, but to dismiss them is just blather.
Reform will mean a system in which 94% of residents will have health insurance and therefore be greatly protected from medical bankruptcy, and even people uninsured will be able to purchase insurance when they get sick in order to prevent themselves from going bankrupt. Is that system perfect, or as good as single payer? Are the actuarial values lower than I would ideally want? Of course not. Politics is not the art of the perfect.
But in effect defending the current system which allows for unlimited discrimination of the sick and old, and far more medical bankruptcies, not to mention deaths of people because they cannot afford health insurance, on the grounds that the proposed bill only solves 75% of the problem rather than 100%, is insane.
Maybe she’ll meet with Lieberman and Nelson. Maybe she can change their minds. It’s quiet clear that it doesn’t matter any more how you get it done.
You forgot opportunistic and sleazy.
You sound like you could use a little health care yourself there wizard.
It’s like arguing with yourself. It doesn’t accept facts.
I’m poor. I’m uninsured. THIS BILL SUCKS.
mercury,
No, I will not….Markos is a phony and I will not give it a rest. You have much to learn about the powerful.
Open your eyes wide!
Yes. I haven’t watched it in years, but there was a time when I shared an apartment with a woman who pretty much had it on all day. She started watching as a change of pace from CNN. She was not racist nor fascist nor bigotted. She was conservative in many ways, but not in ways that conform to your own bigotted world view. That experience taught me a lot. Tends to make me skittish of people like you making bold claims about things they know little about.
you refuse to listen to facts
Well, you certainly haven’t provided any so I’ll repeat the question: who exactly will be worse off after HCR passes?
I’ll grant that some women will lose coverage of abortion services, which sucks – but lets keep in mind, 13% of all abortions are paid by private insurance today, so we’re talking about a small minority of abortions. Anyone else?
Mandates are necessary in order to ensure that premiums don’t soar after insurance companies are required to enlist the sick.
This sentence is all the insanity you need to understand what we are up against.
Yes, the good lil insurance companies are going to make and keep the premiums affordable, they promise. Give me a fucking break!
I have been reading this blog since it’s inception.
I support Jane Hamsher who is a person of integrity and intelligence.
Jane, you are a treasure. Thank you.
Good. But ’1929. things aren’t quite that bad.”
Just wait.
First shoe to drop: Housing loan failures
second shoe: Com. real estate……comming soon to towns near all of us.
third shoe: credit cards
etc. etc.
How many legs have we got.
GOD I HOPE I’M WRONG
Depression, I think will transfer our little bit of wealth too whom?
Generally I get your point but you are incorrect that FDLers are advocating to keep that status quo. You are projecting that’s the only outcome of working against the current bills on offer. Even if you are right about that, please don’t imply people here want what we have now to stay like it is.
It would be really ironic to have this precedent set on health insurance, where the government can mandate that we purchase specific products from specific private-sector markets, simply as a result of being alive and inside the borders of the U.S.
Knowing the tack of our government, there’s one thing that rides above all other concerns; our militarism. Perhaps in 2011, Congress can pass a law mandating that we all purchase at least one pistol, rifle, and shotgun per year from Smith & Wesson? After all, we’ll probably need them at the negotiating table when we try to get our mandated insurance to cover our medical bills.
To say this bill solves 75% of the problem is TRUE “blather.” Subsidizing the entities that are the cause of all this grief and trusting that INSURANCE is the key to CARE is the real insanity.
That may not be their intention, but that will be the obvious impact of their declared goal of killing this bill, and you won’t find anyone who works on Capitol Hill who will say otherwise.
whyknot,
Can you answer the substance of my posts which Markos wrote or said himself, rather than making personal attacks?
What I jave said about Markos is fair game as he attacks Jane Hamsher.
It’s obvious you have not addressed what Markos said or wrote. I sugest you listen to Markos quite revealing speech at the Commonwealth Club from June 13, 2006.
I am with you Jane. Keep doin yuh thing girl.
Jane Hamsher a true progressive fighting to the end.Now that’s my kind woman.
We can work across the “ideological chasm” without compromising progressive values or getting cooties.
whyknot,
Maybe Obama’s healthcare plan can get me a good shrink!!!
Ya think it covers biofeedback and biofeedback machines?
that was a little in-house snark
Me. I will be worse off and so will you. You will be paying at least 8% of your income on insurance, until you get really sick, then it becomes up to 20% of your income. Oh yeah, then there is the fact that you wont be able to afford healthcare because you are paying premiums up your whazoo AND the deductible is too fucking high and the copay is too fucking high.
So you and I wont go to the doctor anymore, most certainly not when we really need it.
People will go bankrupt because of the costs of medical care, but at least they will have “insurance”. It just wont do anything useful but pay for hookers and mansions for the insurance company CEO.
The people required to buy insurance that has high deductables who can’t afford to use it will be worse off, but insurance company stock holders make off like bandits. That seems fair, no?
PLease identify the section and subsection lines in the Senate Managers Amendment establishing cost controls.
Thanks.
Rahm doesn’t need to review his fact sheet, he needs to shut up and sit down at kitchen tables in ordinary homes all across the country. He’s not as smart as he thinks he is, and ordinary people like my husband and me are eager to tell him a thing or two about healthcare affordability.
The Democratic leadership needs to stop playing ostrich and really look at what’s going on across the country. There is no way in hell that people can afford the plans if they can’t keep a roof over their heads, even with the subsidies. I’ve mentioned this elsewhere today: there are people living in their cars after losing their homes, and now the banks are repossessing those very same cars. It’s grim out there.
You’re catching heat because you hit the mother of all nerves. Keep the fire extinguisher handy, and keep pounding on that raw nerve bundle.
First insurance companies make money off insuring healthy people, who don’t need insurance
The VA health care program take care of VETS (govt run)
Medicare takes care of the OLD (govt run)
Medicade takes care of the poor (govt run)
At the end of the day Insurance companies get to insure the healthy.
Now tell us again why the Mandate is necessary.
You cannot and should not try to defend a for profit Health Care program.
Insurance companies would go broke if they had to take care of sick people that is dirty secret to this whole thing.
It’s pointless to argue with it….
Most of us want single payer at the very least a public option.
Hate to admit it but Senator’s Harkin and Sanders made sense here.
The Ed Show
What’s wrong with the Health Care bill
Senator’s Harkin and Sanders. Why ?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30031533/
Harkin “The public option. We are going to revisit the public option”
That seems to be the common assumption. I actually agree wholeheartedly with her. Have signed the petition and encouraged my husband and all of my friends to sign it. However, I am appalled the she would lend her name in any way to these right wing hate mongers. For all those criticizing me, please go online and check out who these people have on for guests. Check out the horrible things they say day in and day out. They are pro-birther, pro-deather, pro-Palin, pro-blackburn, pro-Bachmann, pro-Lieberman, anti abortion, anti Hispanic, anti black, etc., etc., etc.
Actually I agree w/you that the bills should be reconciled and passed regardless of whether or not the poor public option component of the House bill manages to stagger back into the law.
However it is neither right nor fair to imply the people advocating defeat and start over and actually advocating for defeat and status quo. Seems to me Capital Hill doesn’t know all and people have the right to push their legislative agenda(s).
I just don’t like the pass this or else approach, and doubt it changes any minds.
Yes, that “tax” on high-priced plans means going after union workers who GAVE UP INCOME IN ORDER TO GET A GOOD POLICY INSTEAD. BAM! Tax those bastards.
The premiums WILL go up as they are in Mass. The deductibles WILL go up as they are in Mass. The copays WILL go up as they are in Mass. There is NO protection from adverse selection in the bill. The sick, the older, will be put into nice expensive pools and the perfectly healthy young with NO NEED of insurance will be forced to pay anyway.
You know how you can get good healthcare in college? YOU GO TO THE CLINIC. You don’t need insurance to go there and it is cheap. THAT is all younger people need but you want to force them to have coverage with high deductibles and copays so they STILL pay only out of pocket because they just refuse to get sick enough (or have enough money) to cover the copay before the insurance actually kicks in.
You are an idiot and a criminal shill for insurance companies.
I know. But the failure for a substantive rebuttal by “satya” continues to undermine “satya”.
I put “satya” in scarequotes because it means “truth” which is certainly not forthcoming from that commenter.
*G*
Thanks for doin my work hoss, good to see ya on da toobz . . *G*
Compared to the current system? HCR restricts the ability of insurance companies to sell people high deductible plans or to require massive copays, or arbitrary coverage caps. You can argue that the insurance regulations should be even tighter, and I’d even agree with you. But suggesting that high deductible plans or copays are a consequence of reform, when actually reform will reduce both things, is just massively misrepresenting what is in this bill.
satyadaimoku,
I know what you’re getting at, but I’m not of the mind to destroy them all. What I tried to convey is the control they have on our political system. We live in a Capitalist society, but not to the exclusion of all else for the sake of the dollar, which is what’s happening, right now. I think you would have to admit that.
This goes beyond political affiliation. Ever seen “Metropolis”? It’s eerily similar to what is going on, now. What I would like to see is corporations doing for the nation, instead of feeding on it. At all levels, corporate interest and influence have destroyed, or are trying to destroy, ethics and morality as we knew it, for a model that more closely resembles the “robber Baron” way of thinking.
I’m not saying you’re wrong…..but a little sidetracked. Sure, the Republicans defend the status-quo, but didn’t they always? I say get beyond political affiliation, because the corporations already are. All this other is just hot air, unless more folk do like Jane has been doing.
Remember who these people, the Teabaggers, are.
Setting aside the just plain crazy (Senators and CongressPersons), a huge number of these folks are just plain scared to death by what they see, by what they have heard (remember August), and are fighting mad.
They do not all carry guns to Presidential events, and they are not all Obama=Nazi enthusiasts.
The thing to do is peel them off before they approach that fringe (in my opinion, not all of them are so inclined) and make common cause, for our limited purposes.
Sorry guess I shouldn’t have been so personal, but I do think characterizing Obama as at war with progressives and liberals is somewhat over the top.
That could have been written by Rahm himself.Conflated ego. Passing an important health care bill.BWAHAHAHA
Dude, make a substantive point and I’ll give you a substantive rebuttal.
And I’m still waiting for tbsa to identify the “thousands” of people who will die if HCR is passed.
But true.
You missed my first ask of you then.
In a comment above I asked you to point to the section and subsection lines in the Senate Bills Manager amendment that outline cost controls.
I know for a fact on reading that document that there are no premium caps. So please point to the cost controls, and explain the m,echanism that will make theinsurance more affordable than it is today.
I have been screaming this for the last 2weeks, what family of 4 making 55k a yr has 2 dimes to rub together after paying their monthly bills?
Where are they gonna come up with the 5 to 10 k the subs wont cover?
I think the reality of this will be a lot of middle class people crossing party lines in 2012 if that’s what it takes to save themselves from financial ruin.
If we stop responding to it, it will go away.
The first time I saw myself attacked on another site as “Knoxville of Firedoglake,” I felt nothing but pride. It put a great big smile on my face.
Here’s hoping for many more attacks from Firedoglake’s opponents, whose fear and frustration are signs that we’re making a difference.
I just had no idea you were so hot.
And that is why THOUSANDS will die, because they will NOT have the ability to use their “insurance”. I guess this shit is rocket science.
Where did we get all these angry people – did they come from DKos? If so, that must be a site that will give you heartburn. I don’t read there.
Jane, I am a relative newbie to FDL, but I am extremely impressed with you.
I am a progressive who is done with the Dems, who are now overpopulated with moderate Republicans and corporatists.
The Senate bill is a disaster, and I am glad you are one of the major voices from the left that are calling Obama out on this.
2010 is shaping up to be a debacle. Emanuel is destroying this party.
From your mouth to gods’ ears. I hang out at DK, and while there are a lot of good people there, the piranha orgy on Jane’s latest petition is nothing short of stunningly stupid. The only way to keep this godawful mess in the Congress from getting even worse is to continue screaming at top volume.
I support Jane’s decision to go on Fox. I agree that it scares the “DC establishment of both parties to think that the left and right might align against the corporate interests that dominate the massive giveaways that keep happening no matter who’s in power.” Also, when Fox viewers see and hear Jane’s message, they’ll agree with much of what she’s saying. And I think it’s a positive for them to see her and realize that she is not their enemy…
The passage of this bill will not prevent me from dying due to a lack of coverage, nor will it prevent bankruptcy. I’m young, healthy, and self-employed. This bill, and the House one too for that matter, look like they’re tailor-made to specifically royally screw me.
The insurance that I will be compelled, by force-of-law, to purchase contains no provisions for controlling deductibles, nor co-pays. The expectation that I pay out-of-pocket for my healthcare expenses is still the de facto condition of my life; regardless of the passage of this bill. The incredibly expensive high-deductable individual coverage that I used to pay for was dropped for a reason. It did me no good. In the event of anything catastrophic I was going to be wiped out, and in the event of anything routine I was paying full sticker-price from my savings. This bill changes nothing about that, but will now force me to continue to pay for that artifice of security.
So, my response to your position is, you’re asserting something about what this legislation will and won’t accomplish that is completely uncertain, and based on my non-unique circumstance; is wholly unconvincing.
The efficacy of your claim that this bill actually helps is predicated entirely on the notion that the subsidies are sufficient. Which they are not, neither in quantity or structure. Marcy Wheeler has cataloged the shortfalls in subsidies that one can expect as commonplace, and they are not at all indexed to real future prices, so as the inflationary pressures of the subsidies push premiums up, the shortfalls will become even more dramatic.
So, as one of those people who you think you’re advocating for; you’re not helping me, but thanks for trying.
Yes. IT needs atention.
Completely agree with most of hte substantive points you make in this, and if you want to talk about how to reform the political process to limit the ability of corporations to influence future legislation, I’m with you on that. But you reform health care with the political system you have, and this health care reform bill is the best we are going to get out of this effort. That’s just reality. And this bill will make a huge difference in the lives of millions of peopple. To see progressives split over this is very disheartening. Although really its not surprising – you see the same problem, the same impulse for purity or nothing, an impulse that basically always leads to nothing.
Guess I’m a little too hot under the collar today. As I said, I’m a 60 year old woman who remembers when abortion was illegal. I’m a small business owner who had to cancel my insurance because I can’t afford it any longer. I’m just holding my breath and praying I make it to 65. I don’t like this health insurance bill, I hope if fails. However, I was also raised to believe that the means DO NOT justify the ends. I am just so stunned that Jane would choose to go on this show. It’s not FOX, it’s this particularly hateful disgusting bunch or racists that I find so disturbing. She lost me on this one. To me it was a betrayal. So I’m hurt, I’m sad, and I’m hypersensitive.
Ok, congrats for defending Fox news. Let me repeat, that is a fascist (real fascist) propaganda news station. Unless you think that neocons are different than fascists. In my opinion they are not. You are entitled to call me “bigoted” for believing that neocons are fascists. However, I am also entitled to call you what you obviously are:politically illiterate. Try to educate yourself a little and then you may realize that Fox news is a a neo-fascist propaganda station.
Disagree. We’ve seen war on the liberals and progressives over the last decade. This is an internecine fight amongst incrementalists and harder lefties w/in the Dem party, I think.
pay no attention to dailykos. The place is nuts and overrun with Obama trolls. I have no idea why they aren’t banning the hate speech instead of being its referee. I appreciate all of the energy and hard work you have put in on behalf of all working/middle class Americans.
A family gathers around the table for a feast. One reaches out and takes all the goodies, then puts back one bean for everyone else to fight over. Great sport. The rest of the family does not have to play. The Hopi say we are the ones we are waiting for.
Ha, yeah, obviously a slow day for issue discussion at the great orange. Maybe they are having some site envy.
it’s not rocket science – you just haven’t explained your argument. why will “thousands” be unable to use their health insurance if reform passes, but will be able to do so if reform fails? Again, who exactly is better off if reform fails?
Just went over to DK. Whoa…Jane brought that tired place to life.
Couldn’t read the comments…afraid it would dampen my holiday spirits.
This is big.Repubs want a war. Dean wouldn’t fall for it.bill clinton kept the US behind him in always taking the high road against repub. childishness.Jane is the same in that respect. But with flair.LuV it!
Shorter Jane:
1. kill the bill
2. ???
3. Universal health care!
Seriously Jane, what’s the plan after you’ve successfully killed HCR? Do your new friends decide they’ve been wrong all along and back your efforts to enact the Public Option? Otherwise, this is all an academic exercise.
Cost? shuh. Everybody knows the insurance industry is great at keeping costs low. Why would you want to unecessarily burden them with binding language? That’d be like asking an oil man to swear an oath before speaking to a Senate panel.
Ignorance does not become you. You need to get out more, read a bit, talk to people outside of your bubble. You clearly do not know the first thing about libertarians.
And you won’t answer me; because you can’t.
There are no cost controls, and no premium caps, and therefore no reform.
Once again, you confuse purity with fighting rape. Not the same.
Those with very good employer paid health insurance plans would be a lot better off if this bill dies.
this is a great community here, not everyone agrees with Jane’s every move – stick around
Repetition does not make things true. You are still ignorant and too opinionated for your own good. You really do need to get out more. I’m afraid I have to leave it at that for today. Perhaps we can discuss these things further sometime…
Assuming evidence not in facts. Don’t put words in my mouth. I do NOT want the SENATE bill to pass. And yes, if the senate bill is what passes for reform for you that is fine. But speaking as someone with skin in the game, with a child who’s life depends on healthcare don’t you ever try to tell me what is best for me and my family. We live it every day.
And BTW, who exactly is calling for reform to fail?
Yes they are windy and are probably real excited to have a chance to use a liberal w/the bonifides of Jane on their show of mad-haters.
exactly..
Jane you are a genius politically.
The media filter just sprung a major hole in it. Eyes are opening everywhere.. Nice “quintangulating”!
I support uniting the people, and exposure of the money party and the theater. Education and awareness might unite more of us permanently. “Join or Die”.. more representative flag than the Tea party has for what needs to happen to really change things. :)
The lesson to the Democrats in Congress is that there is no clamor for an indivudal mandate but there is broad public support for a public option.
Maybe they could enact something people supported and did not get riled up about instead of painting lipstick on an individual mandate pig, pissing on our legs and telling us its raining.
Fox is not a news outlet, it’s an openly partisan opinion factory and the Democrats should not be legitimizing them (and allowing them to recruit Democratic viewers to propagandize to) by doing this.
– Jane Hamsher
What’s the big deal here? Jane’s a blatant hypocrite. Is that so difficult for people to wrap their minds around?
Let’s see: According to Jane, anyone who goes on Fox is simply legitimizing and allowing them to propagandize. But not Jane. She’s above that.
And you’ll notice she doesn’t even attempt to address her own words flung back in her face.
‘Blah, blah, blah… Part D… who’s in power… PhRMA propaganda…. blah, blah, blah… I hope no one notices that I’m not even addressing the fact that I’m a hypocrite.
Seems pretty clear to me.
I will be better off if it fails, because I can continue to put money in savings that I would otherwise be putting into the pointless endeavor of faux-insurance, per my previous comment:
*whew* 500+ comments and no end in sight…! ;-)
I wonder how many were hoovered up by the Mods…! ;-)
Go, Mods…!!!
Nice bit of parsing there on the public sentiment. :-)
I like that.
You support Obama, right?
i don’t know why you want a line by line rendition of the senate bill, but i don’t know where in the bill things are located for the same reason you don’t – because we both have better things to do with our life than to read legislation cover to cover. yes, this would be a better bill if more was done to control costs. but it’s beyond serious dispute that poor and middle class people are going to be better off with $150+ billion in subsidies to help them purchase health insurance than they are today. and the nothing bill will be our reality if this bill fails will do even less to control costs.
No, it is not over the top…
Obama resent criticism and now has attacked those who do not like his lack of public option as “ideological.”
In other words, the fringes on the left and right.
I totally reject your view that the Obama administration is not at war with liberals. Obama is a DLC-Democrat. The DLC Democrats have been marginalizing the left since Clinton helped form the organization.
Yes, indeed, the Obama administration which embodies the Demnocratic Party establishment is at war with liberals and those fighting for social and economic justice.
The neoliberal project of which the Democratic Party are most loyal is pro-corporate and unfriendly to unions and workers and many others who have fought for social justice for many decades.
In Seattle in 1999, battling the WTO, both left and right came together in opposition.
In short, I argue that the present day Democratic Party is at war with the liberal and progressive movement’s concerns on substantial policy issues.
Obama has now referred to such criticisms as a typical proponent of neoliberal fundamentalism would-his opponents being “ideological” when neoliberal economics is all about ideology. So, Obama is not being too honest here himself.
In fact, politics is about ideology and ideas.
You have obviously confused hystrionic outrage with argument.
Obama is a DLC Democrat who makes Bill Clinton look like LBJ.
You have obviously confused yourself for someone who has a fucking clue about what they’re talking about.
As usual Jane you were great!! cudos to one of the best!!
Anyone who isn’t willing to change their strategy when a situation changes is an idiot.
You would not be a good battlefield general.
But they’ve got cooties!
It’s true that some young, healthy and self-employed with high incomes will do worse with this bill than nothing. Those with low incomes will face a tradeoff – health insurance will be easier to afford because of the exchanges and subsidies, but it will be mandated. But either way, the fact that you might have to pay a little more depending on income is nowhere close to the thousands of people dying claim that I was originally responding to.
If there were still liberals or progressives with any influence in the Democrat Party, there would have been a 2% tax increase on corporations which would finance the insurance plan of your choice, public or private.
Anything that frightens the jag-offs of the the DC establishment is a good thing.
This invective is probably a little unnecessary, the next time satyadaimoku asks you who will be better off if this bill fails, you can tell them, “Nathan Aschbacher, and he explained why, right here.“
You’re smoking dope buddy. $150 billion means nothing if you can’t control costs and that amount is almost equal to only the excess in drug costs in this country, NOT actual healthcare.
no offense, but I’d like to hear Jane’s answer on this question, which has been repeatedly asked and studiously avoided.
The veal pen cowers at the notion of victory because that would mean an end to those gala fundraising dinners, and that is just crazy talk!
Sure, people with $23,000+ insurance plans will face a moderate tax increase. So will people with incomes over $200k. Are liberals seriously at the point where they are worried about the upper class paying too much in taxes?
If the left/right can come together on a few key issues, I think that’d be great. But is it possible?
It is always easier to stop something from happening than to make something else happen. That’s the way that politics rolls. You don’t always have to provide alternatives in order to justify shooting down bad crap.
For those bringing up the “purity” argument, how can you say that with a straight face when this site has argued for, raised funds for, and whipped for a public option when in fact the “pure” outcome preferred would be Single Payer.
IS resorting to personal attacks all you folks have?
Politics and ideas, yes. I still completely disagree w/you on the current WH and in particular on the idea that he is Obama is a DLC corporate style Dem. He is an incremental, non-disruptive type of reformer and that often causes the more liberal left much angst.
This is quite typical of University of Chicago Democrats. So maybe we can call him a UCD instead?
Decant another bottle of the Obama kool-aid and breath in it’s heady bouquet. Smells like shit but to true believers it’s a heady aroma.
It is our only hope at this point. Let’s kill this and try to find common ground on Medicare for all beefed up on steroids.
The senate can start over, the whole “reform” effort is not dead. The senate can adopt the house bill. Insurance is not health care. This reform isn’t really reform, it will actually make things worse. It’s a banquet for the rich, and crumbs for the poor taken from the dinner table of the working class.
Jane Hamsher is hardly trying to be a pundit, who obtain that status by showing willingness to protect the status quo, not by bucking it. Tweety is a perfect example.
She went on fox to say the senate bill sucks, kill it, and in return she got to say that both the D’s and the R’s are play the working class against each other. She wasn’t marginalized like O’rielly does to his guest, the host let her speak and even helped deliver the message. It was a win!
No, the high-income people actually don’t have a problem at all. They can afford good coverage, that actually does something. That’s the stuff that I buy for my employees, that I can’t afford for myself, and so I hedge on my genetics and luck.
If today I can afford to pay $0 for a product, that has unknowable utility, but trends toward disutility, and tomorrow I have to buy $10,000 worth of it, and you’ll give me $8,000 to help out; I’m still totally screwed to the tune of $2,000 I don’t have, and that’s $2,000 I won’t have to pay for healthcare, because my deductible is going to be a non-zero value, and that’s only under the happy coincidence that whatever I need is actually covered by the product I was forced to buy.
I’ll still be faced with going without treatment, and plausibly suffer death as a result, depending on the condition. So, in terms of both finances and livelihood, I’m worse off.
Again, thanks for trying to help, but speaking as one of those people you think you’re advocating for; you’re not doing me any favors.
I believe that the bill says that the insurance companies cannot use the “preexisting conditions” thing but it doesn’t keep them from denying procedures to anyone – if I understand it correctly. People will be mandated to pay for things they may never get.
I’m sorry, but this is pure fantasy. There is no common ground with people who believe there is no problem with the current system, and that attempts to reform it are some kind of Socialist plot.
Well, the subsidy levels are tied to income, so if insurance companies keep raising premiums it will cost the government more money, not the purchasor. And at some point, if it were true that the insurance companies were charging so much money that the government was going broke, that would increase the political pressure to put a public option back in the bill.
But people have unrealistic notions about the ability of insurance companies to charge “whatever they want”, especially given the OPM prudent purchasor provisions that are in the bill.
Yep, always great to get this out to a broader audience. We gotta be able to disagree without hating one another.
You got links for those accusations or are they just ad hominen attacks.?
We have a common enemy–the vile, money-grubbing corporatists (think Lanny Davis). If we can make common cause with the right, I’m all for it.
Thank You. Being held hostage by insurance companies outrages me, people arguing for that policy to be on steroids well you see what happens…
I’m very glad you did. Kudos to you. Wherever you can go tell the truth, tell it! That’s what we’re about.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/democrats-dont-let-democr_b_85116.html
Folks with those plans are more than likely going to see their plans gradually become worse as the employer will choose plans that don’t trigger the tax.
And saying only the “rich” are going to be affected by this is incorrect. There are some union negotiated plans that are likely to be affected by this. Those union members are more likely middle class who have traded recent wage increases for better health care.
jane, this needs to be shouted from the rooftops on every network. thank you.
We will take over and unionize/democratize the insurance companies. Or, hell, are you guys too conservative to consider that an option? It really should be a wake-up call when a Texan is calling you conservative. There WILL be another round of reforming.
I’m sick. I need health care. Without this bill, I won’t get it. Period.
When you allow this to be defined by the Republican Party consensus and you allow Fox News to put forth its slant unchallenged, with the populist terrain dominated by the right, then yes, it is not possible.
Look, the public already supports a public option. One error in the past has been messaging. Single Payer, Public Option these are not hopeful turns of phrase. Medicare for all is, that this is the win from this go-round.
Grassroots organizing over the next year or so about the economics of Medicare for All could bust the Obama neoliberal entitlements reform juggernaut wide open and create an intergenerational alliance to allow younger folks to buy into medicare which would create a broader political base of support for it and make it better for seniors.
People get Medicare. Congress does not. What Jane did was short-circuit the filters and make a case that leads towards those discussions to folks.
We are being played against one another, the most extreme and absurd positions within each coalition are being trumpeted against one another as a campaign of propaganda. People are beginning to see through this after the past few go-rounds, and that opens the door to having a discussion about problems with the current system and possible solutions that exist outside the screaming matches. Folks want problem solving and most are willing to work on it, unlike the kleptocrats in congress.
A vast majority of them are police and fire to be exact. People who gave up money in negotiations for better benefits.
I’m hoping the Wyden Amendment accomplishes something toward the end of controlling costs by allowing people to take their employer insurance premium and shop the exchange for an individual policy instead. If there are good competitors among the non-profits they should be able to hoover up customers like crazy.
This will make the for profits crazy as they lose the captive clientele they had. That to me is one of the finest of some pretty fine amendments included in the bill at present.
Not just cost containment but cost declines are really what is necessary. Insurance costs have skyrocketed hundreds of times the level of inflation at the same time that real medical costs have declined (drugs instead of surgery, outpatient care instead of long hospital admissions are just two examples where costs MUST have declined to insurers but insurance premiums kept right on zooming up). Begging for anti-trust enforcement, from which the entire industry has outrageously been exempt for 60 years. That is a true disgrace. The whole industry has obviously been price-fixing for decades.
you have fallen for their propaganda
the fall of this bill or fixing it does NOT meane there will be no bill
period.
Just watched the video of Jane on F&F, and it was masterful! She made sure to include Republicans AND Democrats in her comments, so to Fox viewers she made her points without appearing overly partisan. I also was pleasantly surprised at the framing. Fox did a nice job without casting any aspersions. Well done!
Health care is not a risk best hedged through the financial instrument of insurance.
We are never allowed to solve problems here, just symptoms. So long as that happens, this crap is to be shot down.
The PO made it debatable, without that, the individual mandate is offensive as a trade for business practices reform to that which any honest broker would adhere.
Was working through the IM as a condition on business practices reofrm with an actuary friend. If there are 40m uninsured, then that is 20% of the population. Of that 20%, how many have preexisting conditions or exhausted their caps or would possibly be candidates for recission? Is the argument here that if the insurers had to take on the the slim percentage of 20% in any case who would otherwise be excluded, would that break their bank? Seems to me that with profit margins of 20%, hardly!
That’s the big question – will you get it? I wouldn’t like to bet that you will get the care you need but I hope you do.
At least people here are addressing the issues. I usually enjoy reading FDL. Today I was pretty shocked but I’ll get over it. I’m just very opposed to making deals with the devil and I do consider Fox and Friends and their ilk the devil. Guess it doesn’t really matter though cause this thing is going to pass and we’re all going to have to make a monumental push to get some real change into the final bill. I’m holding my breath and praying Obama will issue a signing statement regarding the abortion regulation because it may be unconstitutional. Probably too much to hope for since he seems to have been very hands off so far.
I’ve been marching since 1968 and I think I’m getting tired.
You have no assurances with this bill either. That’s sort of the problem. There’s absolutely nothing in it that ensures that you don’t end up in the de facto condition that you can’t get healthcare, despite being forced to pay to insure yourself for it. You, like me, may end up having to effectively pay out-of-pocket anyway, and now with even fewer resources.
Sucks compared to WHAT? The status quo? Newsflash! You’re uninsured. And you’re going to stay uninsured if this doesn’t pass (but it will).
Here, read these. This one disproves this petit bourgeois minivan-driver’s claims about benefits not starting until 2014:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/22/817811/-Shocker:-The-U.S.-Will-Have-100-Universal-Healthcare-in-2010
This one is a side-by-side comparison chart of what it would mean for a family’s out-of-pocket expenses if we pass the senate bill, or if we keep the status quo. It debunks the idea that it’s worse than the status quo:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/21/817583/-The-Senate-bill-WILL-save-families-money.
What liberal or progressive in their own mind would support a regressive individual mandate under any circumstances?
If you are really worried about the poorest people in this country not having access to health care and thats why you are arguing that we all support it, How can reconcile that with having an opt out for the poorest from having to buy private insurance and dismissal of the fine?
They still wont have care or the junk insurance.
Why are you supporting a wealth transfer that doesn’t deliver on the promise of universal access to health care, that it was intended to?
Can you say “bait and switch”? Most of us realize that faith in God wont deliver HC, why should we trust lying politicians that have been expose for what they are?
What does that have to do with anything, marcos?
I was in a poverty-stricken neighborhood in Philly on election day ensuring that African American voters were able to vote.
So I guess if you want to extrapolate that out to say I support Obama, you can.
But once again, what does that have to do with what Jane did?
Do you have an answer?
You’re trying to tell people making 150% of the poverty level that they should feel happy that they’ll be able to spend 1/5 of their income on health care?
This is exceptionally poignant. The purpose of risk-pooling is to insure against the improbable. We’re attempting to use it to insure against the inevitable; it’s completely asinine.
again, you are under the misguieds assumption that if this bill doesn’t pass that means a real heath bill wont.
no, , if this bill doesnt pass then a real bill will
And possibly unconstitutional, which is a whole other issue. This Congress seems somewhat unbothered by the need to form constitutional laws and this entire hot mess will probably be subject to significant judicial review.
Insurance companies would argue they need that profit margin so they can give up tactics like rescission and the ability to rider out pre-existing conditions like, for instance, having been alive before one becomes their customer. But generally I think that is bullshit. They are just a middleman and like most middlemen in the computer age are trying to find a way to maintain their illegal and unjustified rents.
But I think Wyden helps that as does the huge amount of $ going toward health clinics (good on you, Bernie Sanders). People with expensive employer provided insurance will be pretty unlikely to go consume health care w/the great unwashed but most people might find it more convenient and much, much cheaper.
Wow, in the presence of actual negroes? How well you saddle the White Man’s Burden.
How’s that working out for you?
Jane is playing to win, you won and got played. Any questions?
You mean if you ignore the fact that right now they have the option of paying nothing, which might be all they can afford?
Resole those boots n, the next few years are a great chance to influence policy!
2% tax on businesses goes to fund public or private insurance of a family’s choice including beefed up Medicare.
Also, if CostCo or WalMart can negotiate with pharma, why can’t Medicare and a PO? Why should Americans be held pharma hostage to subsidize profits for pharma so they can sell meds cheaper in Europe and Canada? That is another area where left and right can come together in a populist alliance.
pithy and eloquent.
Insurance companies would argue they need that profit margin so they can give up tactics like rescission and the ability to rider out pre-existing conditions like, for instance, having been alive before one becomes their customer.
This is what really concerns me. The bill only mandates insurance companies can’t deny someone because of a pre existing condition. However, there is no cost control for said insurance. I would not put it past the insurance companies to price pre existing people out of the market. They would still be holding to the letter of the law.
Wyden Amendment: DOA.
Of course, there was popular support behind it so it had to die.
You sure love to see your face on TV.
Laughing my arse off at the commenters here, some of whom I’m pretty sure have had conniptions before at the idea of liberals appearing on Faux Noise, but all of a sudden have had an epiphany and think liberals should take the bold step of increasing their media exposure.
What people here should try to remember is that the people on Daily Kos want what you want, and the people on Fox do not. But who are you hating on?
The level of discourse is becoming very petty and a lot of democrats/progressives are going through 5 stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and finally acceptance… I think it would serve FDL well to not engage in the pettiness and just keep stating the ultimate truths about this bill, the dysfunction/corruption of the united states government, Obama’s failures/failed promises, and what all of this means for the future of this country.
Once climate change/financial reforms get started and we see the same half measures/not-reform-called-reform, it’ll break the Obama apologists back with overwhelming proof that he is in fact inadequete and doesn’t have ordinary americans interests at heart. We don’t have to resort to personal attacks, just truth… and yes, alliances made with the right is the direction we need to go. ending corruption should be a universal issue that we can all agree on. take the system on.
The people on the Daily Kos fucked up and got played. They remain in denial about this. What they now support would make matters worse. Are you trying to suggest that just because we don’t have cooties amongst us that we not align with people who do have cooties sometimes, most of the time, when our interests coincide? Are you suggesting we lose like you all did, and not play to win, play for keeps, while we still can?
I can guarantee you they can’t afford to get sick and go to the emergency room and get a bill for $600 for having their temperature taken. THAT’S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
This would be perfectly okay w/me and I hope is where we go eventually. I’ve always believe HCR is actually about Medicare + something reimbursement rates. I prefer plus 5 for everybody. We may get plus 10 for 55 and under. It’s going to take a while but I hope no one gives up advocacy for this plan.
It’s v. frustrating to see the pharma situation. Part D was a smash & grab full stop. I understand why team Obama (disclosure, I was a OFA volunteer) wanted to sideline Pharma, but maintaining that deal is tough to take.
It was a tactic to draw a clear target on the insurance companies (take the weakest link out first) but also guaranteed to piss off the left and it sure did.
Quick get the fainting couch.
Masterful, indeed!
Re appearing partisan, Jane gave David Vitter credit for his position against PhRMA-approved language on biologic drugs: Will PhRMA’s Fax Machines in the Senate Continue Eshoo’s Work? (Nov 16, 2009).
Jane is interested in government working for the people.
And let’s face it, Jane’s on Fox because killing the bill is what they wanted. Neat framing as a “cancer survivor”. Pity you didn’t say “no, I have looked at this bill closely because I’m a progressive activist”. It all sounded a bit blah blah blah to me, loads of stuff about people whipping other people and the presenter leading you by the nose. When he says, how do you feel? all people here is the first sentence. They don’t care about the why.
Wouldn’t put it past them either, this is why that anti-trust exemption chafes me more than anything else. It is completely unjustified and has been codified into law for 60 damn years w/no one making a peep about it.
Also, I really, really, really want the Wyden Amendment to survive, it is a furtive public option IMO.
Let’s be honest here. This is about the middle class and the upper class uniting against the working class. And people wonder why they pick up guns and start revolutions.
Going on right wing networks and spewing right wing talking points. I hope you feel better soon.
Nightheat I think this is one of the better discussions I’ve joined on this site, not that I’m a regular or anything. It’s been an interesting afternoon.
I think it goes back to what people are aware of. Before this whole debate I had no idea that insurance companies were exempt from anti trust laws. If more americans were aware of that I think getting rid of the exemption might gain some traction. That’s another reason why it was great for Jane to make an appearance on F&F.
I hope Wyden survives as well, but I just read above that it’s DOA.
God bless you, Jane
And the passage of this bill doesn’t change that reality at all. Forcing them to buy insurance they can’t afford the entry fee for, and can’t afford to use once they’ve got it, isn’t going to do anything about the $600 bill they’re going to face when they try to.
There’s nothing in this bill that does anything about that $600, nor the need for that family to figure out where to come up with it.
That’s the whole point of this debate. This bill doesn’t in fact actually address and resolve any of the things that people claim that it does. The backdoors and loopholes to maintain the essential conditions of the status quo are fully in place, and in the process all that will have been gained is the premium revenues of the currently uninsured, and the penalty revenues collected by the IRS from those who refuse to go along.
Congratulations, you’re sick, you need healthcare, they’re going to make you pay for it, and they’re not going to give it to you.
553. Duh.
Thanks, Tom65.
Jesus Christ! How long have some people been in politics, or even read any history? If one had to only choose positions that their opponents didn’t support in any way, fashion or form, then one would be quite alone, and quite paralyzed. Call it orthogonal politics.
Jane, you are leading the way forward, and the ass-draggers, who only conceive of politics as a popularity contest between their favorite electoral star, are attacking what they don’t understand.
Forward to a politics of issues and principles. It can only take us to a good, if hard-fighting, place.
I don’t have any skin in the game, and I wouldn’t share the Kos view. I think their view though is that there is no “keeps” to play for, and frankly, I don’t share your short memory. I can remember Jane banning single-payer advocates for suggesting precisely that, and herself suggesting that we should fight to the death for a ludicrously weakened public option, which was little more than a symbol.
I think there is no win for progressives in here, and that both sides have merit. Kossacks think that it’s better to pass something and work to improve it; Firedogs think (this week) that it’s better to see the bill torpedoed and hope that somehow that inspires Harry Reid to become a socialist. I think you should all have fought balls out for single-payer from day one, and should never have abandoned it. It wouldn’t have got Jane much face time on Fox but it’s the right answer. Given the relative lack of power of both FDL and Kos, what’s even the point of fighting your guts out for the wrong answers?
They could always be wrong about Wyden! It’s a great amendment.
I’ve never seen you here before but might I suggest that we DID fight balls out for the public option and have fought balls out for the public option for months and months.
The only thing that politicians understand is the credible threat of defeat, electoral or legislative. The Democrats must be taught the lesson which they have not learned for no lack of being exposed to it.
Sorry, yall, but at the end of the summer it was clear that the best we could do was to link the IM to the PO, but nobody thought far enough into the future to contemplate such eleventy level strategery.
Most of the new commenters today seem to feel that we are not “pure” enough. Sound familiar?
This has nothing to do with principles! Dude, she’s on Fox because she is saying “kill the bill”. Yes, they want the bill killed. Few people watching that show are going to listen to her explaining why it should be killed. They are seeing a cancer survivor — survived the worst under the old system — who thinks the bill is terrible — with the suggestion lingering that Obama’s bill would have killed her!
If you framed it Medicare-For-All, instead of single payer or gummit-run health care–a lot of the tea party people would be for it. And if you did, the corporatists in both parties would have a shit fit.
She didn’t get rid of all of us. ;-)
This is an excellent rhetorical question.
I can certainly attest to that. FDL has fought valiantly for the most expansive health care reform available at every step.
And have won many points, although it may not feel that way at the moment.
This is the end of my work day (work? I’ve been chatting with you all!)
Thanks for the interesting commentary, this is really a fine site for libs.
There wil be no “improving” it. They will all pat themselves on the back and talk about what a wonderful thing they have done for us.
And nothing will get changed or improved – because THEY DON’T WANT IT.
A couple of things:
1) This is a 100% Democratic Party bill. This is who they are. This is what they produce if left to their own devices. It is the ultimate snapshot of how corrupt and downright stupid they are.
2) Nobody wants this bill more than Rahm Emanuel. Kill this bill and he will have to go. That will hurt his resume hopefully irreparably. Bye bye Senate seat. It is a real twofer to kill the bill.
3) When Emanuel asks how many bills Krugman has passed, the reply should be: how many good bills has Emanuel passed?
4) So, let’s make clear to all these corrupt politicians, they own the bill.
The Democrats own this bill.
Obama owns this bill.
Emanuel owns this bill.
This is the win.
I think we all know who is responsible for this atrocity.
Brilliant street-smart political advocacy, Jane. Your ad hoc alliance with libertarians could outflank the corporate/bipartisan congressional/BHO conspiracy to pad their own nests and ensure their own futures at the expense of poor and working class citizens. I’d wager “community orginizer” BHO never executed anything as smart and effective as this.
I am very grateful. Keep up the great work.
Jane is referring to Politicians.
The subtitle is “Democrats Don’t let Democrats do Fox: Why did Hillary Clinton Accept Fox debate?”.
Jane is not a politician, she is a progressive activist getting a mic where ever she can to get the message out. She is astute enough not to have her message twisted. Take the Lanny Davis episode. She may not have got to say much, but she exposed him for what he was, when he was sent to destroy her.
Do you belong to the same camp? Your accusations were founded on very thin ice, in fact you selected only the link text to make your argument, you didn’t even include the title, or any of the content.
Poliicians are interested in maintaining power by getting reelected, and fiilling their pockets. They don’t care what lies they tell. They consider half truths to be “truth” even if it misleads people to believe deadly lies. She’s fighting a noble cause. You ought to hang your head in shame.
You are aligning with teabaggers Jane. They are know nothing troglodytes. You just helped legitimize a Republican propaganda tool.
You are just deluding yourself. But I guess whatever helps you sleep at night… Shameful.
Of course, but I was just focusing on Emanuel and wondering how does he think he will ever get re-elected again when he will be forever known as the man behind the mandates.
We all work with and are friends with right wingers. The corporatists try to make it seem like we are enemies. But who is the real enemy? Who cheats us out of our money? The banksters. The corrupt Dem and Repub Party. Not the right wing people we know in real life.
No one said it wasn’t incrementalism. I just don’t think you guys really realize where we are at this point. Health care reform of any real substance hasn’t succeeded in seven decades. You guys have a total anti-historical perspective. Look, Howard Dean is a dumbass, okay? This is health insurance reform now, which is a worthy cause in itself. A few years ago, before Sicko, this whole thing would have been unthinkable! You guys are just riding the wave of what’s trendy. You say there can be health care reform after this bill is killed (and it won’t be), but how? Are any of the Senators going to change their positions? No. And we’re going to lose some of them in the upcoming election. That seems to be universally understood. So how? When? As the second article I posted a link to said:
Your hate for the insurance companies, entities which are actually able to provide coverage for people, is blinding you. I mean, I’m an anarcho-syndicalist myself. I hate the insurance companies. But I’m not a Marxist. I can see shades of gray. I’m not blinded by ideology. You guys are, and it’s thoroughly embarrassing. Don’t listen to petit bourgeois minivan-driver here. She just hates the working class.
Save your holier-than-thou BS for someone else. But you’ll notice, I answered your question, you didn’t answer mine. You hide behind petty insults and call it an answer.
So once again: remind me what Obama has to do with Jane’s hypocrisy? Hillary was “playing to win,” by going on Fox. That’s precisely why Jane criticized her.
Pot meet Kettle:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/democrats-dont-let-democr_b_85116.html
Cooties! Cooties!
WOO-HOO!!! I didn’t know you did that, Jane! Good! This is exactly the way to go. I support you completely.
All God’s chillun got shoes. All of ‘em.
I rarely comment. I’m not American and don’t have anything to win or lose by it, although my American friends do and I care about that, and I care about the people wherever they are. Yes, you fought for a public option. Never single payer. You fought for a strong public option and then when you decided that you weren’t getting it, you traded down for a weak one. Then you were willing to trade down further for a Medicare buyin so that a few older people could pay seven and a half grand for it.
The opposition take the extreme and drag the window towards it. That’s what they did. They kicked off with death panels. You kicked off with a public option, which probably most people don’t really understand. And at the end of the day, you’re now fighting to give them what they wanted. I agree that the bill sucks a ton, but patting yourselves on the back for your grand success seems a bit rich.
Hillary lost. Jane might just yet win by killing this turd.
The middle class is disappearing. What’s left is the bottom of the middle class and the poor, and we are the working class, except for those that can’t get jobs that were exported to India and China. Nice try though.
I tend to agree with you. If you even have a Democratic Congress in the upcoming, it’s hard to see them making any more than marginal improvements. There are a lot of other battles up ahead, in which sadly, progressives will waste yet more energy fighting for the wrong answers. It’s going to be heartbreaking watching progressives break themselves into pieces over cap and trade, which is a total heap of shit.
The middle class was killed, intentionally dissolved because we were not profitable enough for them.
Stop with the mini-van driver stuff. You don’t know Jane.
Does anyone here even read?
DrZen wasn’t talking about a balls out fight for the public option.
I think you should all have fought balls out for single-payer from day one, and should never have abandoned it. It wouldn’t have got Jane much face time on Fox but it’s the right answer. — DrZen
Whether you agree with that strategy or not, it’s painful to see what passes for intelligent discourse here. Sometimes it’s balls-out willful stupidity.
Explain to me how this bill helps me. Hell, strike that. Explain to me how this bill isn’t worse than the status quo for me, and I’ll immediately abandon any invocation that it should be killed.
Every single scenario you’ve brought up about why this has to pass doesn’t hold any water. Specifically the provisions of “reform” that it does provide, are systemically self-gutting by what it doesn’t address.
This bill helps exactly one demographic of people, the healthy for whom the subsidies make insurance affordable, to the degree that it becomes an attractive spending priority. Every one else suffering under the current configuration does not improve their situation with the passage of this bill, as the mandates are firm on consumers and weak on providers.
Jane–
You’re the bravest person in the room.
It’s amazing that the people who support Obama, one of the most conciliatory (to the point of spineless) leaders we have ever seen, are the most upset that you would speak to conservatives. Yet Obama continues to bow down to them, hand them political and legislative victories, and no one can say a word about it.
We are with you!
I guess we have to stop criticizing Fox as a mouthpiece for the Republican party?
I still wonder why appeal to Republicans when they supposedly don’t believe in government being involved in health care. Wasted effort. They will help bring down the health care bill for their own reasons, not Jane’s.
Shouldn’t Jane show her luv for the 40 Republican Senators who will vote against the bill by contributing to their campaigns?
What does Hillary losing have to do with anything? Had she lost at the point Jane wrote that piece?
You can’t answer my basic question. But you sure can obfuscate.
Apples to Oranges. Jane is not a politician. She is a truth teller, the goal is not the same and she doesn’t leave a trail of dead bodies (well, good peoples dead bodies) in order to win.
I answered you here :@615 get a new schtick. Yours is full of holes.
Thanks Jane,
not just for kicking ass on this and so many issues,
but for apparently
making Steve Ducy take his sanity meds before your segment. You should go on that show more often if it forces him make sense at least while you’re on.
PU-MA!….PU-MA!….Oh Sorry. I got this debate confused with that last, emotionally driven, irrational, irresponsible whining from people who know little about “patience”. Especially the patience that’s actually extended UNTIL THE BILLS ARE BEING NEGOTIATED IN CONFERENCE!
I keep thinking the same thing. How in the hell dems think this is a win for them is beyond me.
Call Jane racist, call her sexist, call her a hater, call her PUMA. The tactic never changes. That is so last year.
agree mostly, there was nothing left after the means of production was sold for capital liberalization.
Cooties? Sort of childish. What do you mean by that?
Though an open invitation diary by Jane to people who supported Hillary in the primaries who researched Obama for the empty suit he was way back then might be in order.
As pledged, I just contributed to killing the Senate’s bad joke on the American people.
Please consider contributing here.
Reid and Obama should have accepted nothing less than real health care reform, and they should have to fix their mess.
Republicans don’t represent their constituents either. That’s who she’s appealing to. She has to go where they are to get the message out.
Thank Dog she sees the benefit of doing that, and not sitting on an ideological high horse and calling them names.
There’s enough of you doing that. Take a look around you, is it working?
Filing for: James has been received by FCC. Thanks for your information. When inquiring about your complaint, be sure to reference this number: 09-C00182561 and, be sure to mention that you filed this complaint over the internet.
At approximately 1:37 PM on Tues the 22nd of December, 2009 rush Limbaugh publicly asked his listening audience to with-hold payment of their income taxes to protest the Obama administration and the Federal Government. This is illegal. Limbaugh is publicly asking citizens to break the law.
He also said that we are approaching the point where our founders were in the beginning of the USA where violent revolution would be necessary.
No it’s YOU that “haven’t read Gandhi”.
Recall that Gandhi called for non-participation in WWII which was being hypocritically portrayed as a “war for democracy”. For this he was jailed as being a “pro-Fascist subversive”.
Gandhi refused to accept the idea that negotiations with the Indian Rajahs constituted true reform and independence. He did not believe that one could take from one group and give to the elites and corporations and call this progress.
Gandhi realized that Satyagraha required tremendous discipline because some of the participants would suffer, be injured, and possibly die.
At the same time Gandhi had no problem speaking uncompromisingly to the British public through the medium of Newspaper articles about colonialism. It was the British government themselves that cut him off.
Did Jane say one thing that played into the Tea Baggers world that the corporations, if left alone, will do wonderful things for America? I don’t think she gave them a sliver of support.She stated precisely why this Bill is a travesty for working-class America and a boon to the Health Insurance industry. She was clear that it was also bad for the Democratic Party. What tea-bagger would want the Democrats to avoid a fatal mistake?
I’m sure that Ms. Hamsher will accept any invitation from any MSM program to give her perspective. I doubt many invitations will be forthcoming. People know where their bread is buttered.
I am liking what should be an unholy alliance. Everything has gottten so insane now, with Dems acting like Republicans on matters of critical importance, that I expect to see more of the kind of crossovers that this represent. God help us, but maybe some of the populist anger of the mostly brainless teabaggers can be harnessed against the corporate bastards in both parties.
You were great! Your honesty, which was not tainted by partisan political posturing and shading, is something that some people just can’t handle. Good for you!
Ha-ha. I love “Hopiness” and “Changiness.” I’ll use them whenever possible.
They can also use the “pre-existing” condition of age or sex in adjusting premiums. And I understand that they can also adjust premiums for “healthful living”. Thus someone that is “behaving badly” can be expected to pay more. Unmarried middle-aged male living in a large metropolitan area like San Francisco? Expect to pay a lot!
Amen. Sensible newtonusr.
My thoughts exactly.
There is no reason to go on Fox News, period. And especially on Fox & Friends. There is no faction of their audience that is amenable to progressive views. They only want to exploit your opposition to something they also oppose.
Democrats and progressives should refuse to lend their credibility to Fox or to validate them as a legitimate news enterprise.
I am in full agreement with Jane’s criticisms of the health care bill. But aligning with Fox is just not productive. Their criticisms are not remoteley the same.
of course there is
period.
Finally, a couple people agree with me.
I know I’ve been very critical of Jane going on Fox News, but just to make sure I haven’t been misunderstood, she gave a great interview, and I support EVERYTHING she’s been doing in this fight.
She is the one person hanging tough on the issue, so I don’t want to be criticizing her about this Fox News issue, while the SHEEP-think morons at DailyKOS pile on her about her actual fight for real reform. At the end of the day, Jane, and Arianna, and Ed Schultz, and Rachel, and a few others are all we have to keep this story alive.
SO, Jane, keep up the good fight, but, PLEASE, I beg you, don’t ever go on that propaganda network ever again.
In response to newscorpse @ #651
Even when Barack Obama does it?
Jane, I’m behind you 100%. I just called my senators and really gave them an earful. IMHO, if the Fox dittoheads see a sane and intelligent person talking for a change, they might get to like it as opposed to listening to horses’ arses like O’Reilly. The content is what is important, in the final analysis, anyway, and you are speaking truth to power. Every American understands the real deal when they hear it; it’s part of our DNA.
Dear Jane Hamsher Haters,
Look in The Mirror at Yourselves and understand how programmed you are!
Some argue that there is actually a phony “left-right” divide. I view it like this. I view the present situation in class war terms of the wealthy and powerful against the rest.
I look at the present situation in terms of class and social structures alone. The so-called “left-right” divide as spoken in the corporate media continues this diatribe on behalf of the same corporate entity they work for. The media is actually guilty in helping to foment this class, racist and sexist divide.
I value the first amendment and the right to redress one’s grievances and believe one can do it anywhere they choose to it.
Jane Hamsher was well within her first amendment rights today.
If you cannot handle Jane’s appearance on FOX, look in the mirror and you will see your innner Rahm Emanuel!
While I grant you that it is striking to see Jane appear there, let’s look at what she got:
• At no time was her political affiliation mentioned.
• At no time did the conversation stray from the lack of merit of the Senate HC bill.
• A completely sympathetic interview.
• A huge, invigorated audience, some of whom are genuinely pissed about things like mandates.
Win.Win.Win.Win.
So what. Anti-war tax resisters have been doing it for decades, and we surely didn’t need Limbaugh’s permission.
The Progressives have a difficult time getting the message out and when Jane can go on Fox and reach millions of wingers who watch, that’s a great thing. She is not aligning herself with Fox and never will but you fight your battles where you can.
My problem with it isn’t related to anything Jane said or didn’t say or anything of the sort.
The Left has spent a year marginalizing Fox News as dangerous propagandists. They want nothing more than to have well-respected voices in the Left to come on and legitimize them. I knew before I saw it that they would treat her very well. They gave the same reception to Hillary and Wolfson.
My reasons go a bit deeper than the actual interview, and the good points she made.
Half of the objections to Jane’s going on Fox are genuine. To these folks I say understand that CNN, the Washington Post, and the New York Times are also pernicious. Judy Miller didn’t work at Fox. Though I suppose she does now. I understand the contempt for Fox and I share it and I know your motives are genuine, so please understand I am on your side 100%.
The other half of the objections are just orchestrated trolls.
Jane actually shows some independence and that she is nobody’s fool!!
All you ObamaBot apologists should go ask Rahm Emanuel how much it would cost to sniff his behind!!
Just remember—Obama’s pattern is that he will throw anyone under the bus for political expediency….
These politicians act like whores and parasites. It’s time the Amerixan people tell these double talkers in Congress that we are done with ya!!!
Then how is striding into the belly of the beast, and literally cleaning up, a bad thing?
Consider Rahm Emanuel – he has a diaper full of this now, and the last person he could have imagined would appear there, and get a fair airing…
I would not like to be Rahm’s dog tonight.
I just got an email solicitation from Russ Feingold. Like many pols, he wants a good fund-raising showing before the 4th quarter of the year ends. Here is my reply:
Can we turn this into an action to stimulate heroic action from Feingold, Sanders, or Brown? Anyone with me on this?
Jane? Do you think we could initiate an email campaign to flood their offices with phone calls and emails offering campaign cash incentives to step up?
Everything she said was perfect and inspiring. That’s not what this is about. That show, in particular, is like Beck-lite — a bunch of numb-nuts. In fact, Beck was on that show when he called Obama a racist.
That means their viewers are likely not going to be receptive towards someone who, I’m sure, is routinely referred to on the network as ‘socialist,’ or ‘liberal’. That’s the demographic for that show, I’m certain. Small-minded “keep the government out of my healthcare” types.
Fox News likely considered having Jane Hamsher appear to be a real coup. They’ve been banished by the Left for so long, and now one of the Left’s biggest faces just went on, and treated them like a news organization. That gives these dangerous propagandists legitimacy.
#4 from the Petition: “Massive restriction on a woman’s right to choose, designed to trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court”
If Republicans ran over here and sighed the petition because of the interview on Fox, then fine by me! They clearly saw “liberal” with the inclusion of choice in the petition.
I just hang up the phone, talked to a friend of mine from the other side of the isle.He is a Fox news junkie, He totally agreed with Jane and so do I. It is the first time in 20 years that we have ever agreed on any thing political.
bingo.
No, what Jane did was raise the bar by going on that show. The way she implicated both parties precluded them from being able to attack her.
F&F did not stand a chance. No matter what they have or will label her she had them agreeing.
Looking at the big picture and long term, Jane presented a perfect example they could not refute. She made them stop acting like children for 3:20. That will be my miracle of the holiday season.
Thanks Jane for getting past the left/right trailer park soap opera and making the policy the story. Sure beats a bunch of personalities going at each other.
{{Jane}}
I can’t wait to find out Jane and Billo are best buds and both agree that killing that abortion doctor was justified considering what the Democrats are doing to our health care system. *rolling eyes*
Well, I’ve said my piece, and there’s no point in continuing to reiterate my point. Like I said, with all that’s going on, and all the piling on her coming from the SHEEP-THINKERS on the Left, I don’t wish to contribute to that with my, less significant, Fox News beef.
Keep up the great work, Jane!
I rarely comment-esp. about Ms. Hamsher.
But alls I got to say to you is: “Sing out, Louise! Louder!!”
I don’t care the audience or network-the truth is the truth. The old pardigms need to die. And the hard facts have to get out there past the filter of the corporatist media.
I’ve been appalled by the willful misinterpretation of the alleged “alliance’ with you-know-who on you-know-orange-where.
Esp after “I never campaigned on the PO” I am down with reaching anyone, anywhere who can lessen the hold of these corporations on our Republic.
Keep up the good work Jane!
And in the end? The Senate bill will pass. Pull your pants up Jane for now! There’s others Fox News programs to go on (like Glenn Bleck’s!) to keep selling yourself to the devil!
Kay, are you snarking?
Eerily so.
Um, Jane isn’t saying “kill HCR.”
She’s saying “send the Senate version back for a redo.”
Hopefully Jane will help Sarah Palin get elected next year to show those Dems she means business!
No.
KayInMaine,
Stop your sanctimonious and phony “outrage” Kay!
Has Obama repudiated the Bush Doctrine? NO
Has Obama stopped the Bush era threats of Iran? NO
Has Obama ended the Bush era rendition policies? NO
Has Obama stopped the b.s. Charter Schools setup? NO
Has Obama continued to Kill Innocent People? YES
Is Obama’s Defense Budget larger than Bush’s YES
Has Obama continued to spy on innocent Americans? YES
So, Barack Obama’s record is very similar to Bush’s and as I have mentioned above, virtually identical.
Kay—Wake Up there in Maine and remove your rose-colored glasses.
Obama is a center-right president who just loves to quote and make reference to Reagan and Nixon!!! Yes, Kay, in his Olso speech, Obama praised both Reagan and Nixon–both war criminals!!!
So your answer is to ban with the teabaggers, birthers, Sarah Palin supporters now? Uh, no thanks! But hey, you libbaggers have fun now ya hear!
Being a Kucinich supporter (he wasn’t high on the list of Jane or ASSvosis remember?), I’m not 100% pleased with Obama’s record but you will not catch me bellying up to the bar like a whore with the teabaggers to get my way! No way.
You all can though.
My outrage is NEVER phony. Get it asswipes (treating you like the teabaggers you are!)?
And yes! Go ahead and ban me! I would be honored.
By the way, at this rate…LITTLE GREEN FOOTBALLS HAS MORE INTEGRITY THAN FDL DOES! What a sad day.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
“We can stand fairly united in being tired of the way both parties have been bought and sold by the wealthy special interests”
Exactly. I believe in HC for ALL. Progressives, Teabagggers, neighbors, homeless, who else…
It shouldnt be political. It’s about HUMAN BEINGS, HUMAN RIGHTS.
The first thing conservative friends say when I bemoan the dominance of corporations in government is “what about the unions?”
I’d jump at the chance to build a coalition with the conservatives to drive both union and corporate moneychangers from the temple of democracy.
Dear Jane Hamsher Bashers,
If Obama ever loses to Sarah Palin, that will be Obama’s fault and his alone for being a FAILURE & SELLOUT!!! Again, if Obama ever loses to Sarah Palin, that will be Obama’s fault and his alone for being a FAILURE & SELLOUT!!!
Danny Glover told the Daily Beast’s Lloyd Grove that:
“I think the Obama administration has followed the same playbook, to a large extent, almost verbatim, as the Bush administration. I don’t see anything different,” the activist movie actor said of Obama’s policies in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Middle East. “On the domestic side, look here: What’s so clear is that this country from the outset is projecting the interests of wealth and property. Look at the bailout of Wall Street. Why not the bailout of Main Street?”
It will be Obama’s fault? Really? I’m thinking it will be Hamsher’s fault along with the other crybabies who look for absolute perfection when the rest of us understand that is not how life is! I guess none of you will have an input over the years when the bill is passed and changes are to be made. Who is going to listen to the backstabbers? Not me!
KayInMaine,
You do exercise phony arguments and show an inability of critical thinking. That’s called lazy thinking as well. Wake Up Kay.
To accuse critics of Obama as being “teabaggers” is utter nonsense.
It is also psychotic to claim it would be Jane Hamsher’s fault or “other crybabies who look for absolute perfection.” Obama’s policy record to date as I have already covered in a post above is a dismal failure. Obama is the one who governs America, not Jane Hamsher. Jane Hamsher and the American people have every damn right to hold Obama accountable for his failed policies to date.
Jesse Jackson, Danny Glover, Paul Street, Adolph Reed and writers at the Black Agenda Report have all been critical of Obama and are not his gatekeepers.
It’s your own right to be an ObamaBot. If you want to be a gatekeeper of the Obama administration and the sellout Democratic Party, then that is your right! Take care.
Yes! Let’s get rid of the unions too! Yeah, yeah, we could have a nation full of slaves working for slave wages, no vacation time, holidays…all for the benefit of the CEO’s and no one else.
If I remember correctly, many here were bitching when President Obama didn’t fix all of Bush’s failures in the first 2 weeks after being inaugurated.
Never all the way through because I can’t stomach it. But I have to understand it because so much of my family is in that demographic. I don’t have the luxury of branding them all broadly. Some of my family are racists. Most of those are of the type that “have Black friends” and honestly in their heart of hearts believe that they are not racist at all. Others don’t even try to hide it from others, never mind themselves. But I knew these people as good people before I knew them as crazies in their own little ways. So I can still see the good and am not able to watch a news clip on a teabagger rally and think everyone in that crowd is as bad as the ones they highlight. If they, too, want to get rid of the hold corporate power has on our government, I think it’s smart to help each other out. If we don’t, neither of us has the numbers to do this heavy lift. It doesn’t mean we have to be with them on everything any more than the fact that I can sit at family dinners and have pleasant coversations on some topics means that if the topic turned to racism I would be obligated by our having made common cause for peace at Thanksgiving to agree with racists remarks. So, yeah, if Jane says we can both agree that selling out the Americans to Phrma is wrong and should stop doesn’t mean that we are then magically obligated to set up a joint political party and run under a joint platform.
Yep, because you’re blinded to the fact that the bad remains the enemy of the good while the perfect should not be the enemy of the good.
No, just cut unions out of campaign finance. Rarely are they decisive in elections, while corporations often are, always to our detriment.
How funny is it that the Dem Establishment yells “for shame” when people like Jane decide they can use a segment of the population they are not ideologically aligned with to advance an agenda, then likely discard them thereafter, when that’s precisely what the Dem Establishment does every election to Progressives?
If Obama governed like he campaigned, none of this would be an issue.
If Obama campaigned like he’s governing, he would not be President.
aview999,
Absolutely. This transcends party affiliations.
HII and pharma are laughing at us all. All the way to the bank.
ANTI-TRUST LAWS NOW!
Awwwww, you so badly want to be a teabagger. That’s so cute. I can’t tell the difference between you and the teabaggers even when you told me to do some critical thinking! Wow. How come? Is it just plain to see? Could be!
I’ll wait for your big worded reply now ’cause you are the smartest teabagger I’ve ever talked to!
I think that, where appropriate, folks should try to gingerly bring some of this up this Xmas with “mixed families” because the stakes are just too high and the opportunity is just too ripe.
Maybe because the corps have more money? Oh wait! You’re teabaggers now and just like Glenn Beck you love the corporations and applaud them when they adhere to contract law by taking in $20,000,000 in salary and bonuses while denying Americans health care coverage so they can.
If this thread is still going on Christmas morning, I’m outta here.
What’s it like to be an east coast elite liberal from an almost all white state that hates homosexuals?
Who here is an Evangelical and believes the earth is flat and is only 6,000 years old? Can I have a show of hands?
The passage of this bill will not prevent me from dying due to a lack of coverage, nor will it prevent bankruptcy. I’m young, healthy, and self-employed. This bill, and the House one too for that matter, look like they’re tailor-made to specifically royally screw me.
The insurance that I will be compelled, by force-of-law, to purchase contains no provisions for controlling deductibles, nor co-pays. The expectation that I pay out-of-pocket for my healthcare expenses is still the de facto condition of my life; regardless of the passage of this bill. The incredibly expensive high-deductable individual coverage that I used to pay for was dropped for a reason. It did me no good. In the event of anything catastrophic I was going to be wiped out, and in the event of anything routine I was paying full sticker-price from my savings. This bill changes nothing about that, but will now force me to continue to pay for that artifice of security.
So, my response to your position is, you’re asserting something about what this legislation will and won’t accomplish that is completely uncertain, and based on my non-unique circumstance; is wholly unconvincing.
The efficacy of your claim that this bill actually helps is predicated entirely on the notion that the subsidies are sufficient. Which they are not, neither in quantity or structure. Marcy Wheeler has cataloged the shortfalls in subsidies that one can expect as commonplace, and they are not at all indexed to real future prices, so as the inflationary pressures of the subsidies push premiums up, the shortfalls will become even more dramatic.
So, as one of those people who you think you’re advocating for; you’re not helping me, but thanks for trying.
And it’s not the well-heeled that will be worse off, the high-income people actually don’t have a problem at all. They can afford good coverage, that actually does something. That’s the stuff that I buy for my employees, that I can’t afford for myself, and so I hedge on my genetics and luck.
If today I can afford to pay $0 for a product, that has unknowable utility, but trends toward disutility, and tomorrow I have to buy $10,000 worth of it, and you’ll give me $8,000 to help out; I’m still totally screwed to the tune of $2,000 I don’t have, and that’s $2,000 I won’t have to pay for healthcare, because my deductible is going to be a non-zero value, and that’s only under the happy coincidence that whatever I need is actually covered by the product I was forced to buy.
I’ll still be faced with going without treatment, and plausibly suffer death as a result, depending on the condition. So, in terms of both finances and livelihood, I’m worse off.
Again, thanks for trying to help, but speaking as one of those people you think you’re advocating for; you’re not doing me any favors.
But what about those people who say, “But I’m sick, and I’m being denied coverage, if this doesn’t pass, I’ll never get coverage, and I’ll be expected to pay out of pocket.” ?
You have no assurances with this bill either. That’s sort of the problem. There’s absolutely nothing in it that ensures that you don’t end up in the de facto condition that you can’t get healthcare, despite being forced to pay to insure yourself for it. You, like me, may end up having to effectively pay out-of-pocket anyway, and now with even fewer resources.
That’s the whole point of this debate. This bill doesn’t in fact actually address and resolve any of the things that people claim that it does. The backdoors and loopholes to maintain the essential conditions of the status quo are fully in place, and in the process all that will have been gained is the premium revenues of the currently uninsured, and the penalty revenues collected by the IRS from those who refuse to go along.
Congratulations, you’re sick, you need healthcare, they’re going to make you pay for it, and they’re not going to give it to you.
I am? I’m a single mom who owns a housecleaning business and I don’t hate gays. Wow! I thought you teabaggers were smarter than the rest of us? Guess not!
Exactly, so if we throw off unions from the campaign mix with their 10x in contributions in exchange for the right wing ditching corporations, with their 1000x leverage, that’s a win.
How much longer will we need to wait for organized labor to get its act in gear and stop attacking itself long enough to win a campaign for American workers? I’m an SEIU household living in a union town, so don’t get me started.
We have 4 years to fix the bill. Oh wait! Jane and others will be most likely backing republicans next year in the mid-term so any chance of fixing, improving, adding in the public option, or advancing the bill will come to a halt!
Nevermind.
Ah, so only you are immune from charges of guilt by association?
Politics is the math of addition and multiplication. Good luck practicing the art of division and subtraction.
What does Jane not being a politician have to do with anything? She set the frame on appearing on Fox. Actually, she cemented it. And then she goes on Fox, appearing with the worst of the worst they have to offer.
Fox is not a news outlet, it’s an openly partisan opinion factory and the Democrats should not be legitimizing them (and allowing them to recruit Democratic viewers to propagandize to) by doing this.
– Jane Hamsher
Ohhh… I get it… she’s not a Democrat. She just worked feverishly to get one elected in Connecticut. And she was a big help there, wasn’t she? Managed to turn the spotlight on herself, didn’t she? Just what the Lamont campaign needed, right?
Who are “we?”
The expanded Democrat majorities of new voters who will register and vote Democrat because finally, someone passed an individual mandate that requires folks earning 150% poverty to pay 21% of their income for health care?
Or will that blue dog that Rahm showered with cash and just turned GOP lead your way to “fixing this bill later?”
So glad you’re in agreement with the teabaggers that a $73,000,000 golden parachute is fine as long as Americans are being denied their claims!
FDL wrote about this too: http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/20405
We = Democrats. You’re not one anymore so I’m not talking about you! Okay teabagger?
Kay, they are not going to fix this bill. It’s exactly what they want.
Actually if you look at what she did and said, she could be accused of speaking to Republican viewers…
Irony, thy name is kicking ass on someone else’s turf, and getting the host to kiss your ring.
I met Ned Lamont and had lunch with him and Chellie Pingree in Portland Maine. Can I be part of your group now?
Lieberman won by the way. I guess your Jane Master didn’t do so hot huh? And now look? The Obama Administration isn’t listening to her either! Oh boy. This is not good.
To quote John Waters, “some of the faces I’ve seen you with could stop a train.”
My sister is an independent libertarian conservative who lives in Maine. Don’t go talking shit about other Americans, that’s no way to build a coalition capable of challenging the permanent government.
If the Dems and Reps are our only choices, we now know that you all were dead wrong about Nader in 2000, that he was right, that there is a permanent government that hates Americans and is strip mining our country of jobs and resources for short term corporate profit.
And you know that? I’ve heard a few Democratic Reps talking about fixing it in the upcoming years. Maxine Waters was one.
Did you know the republican party is currently a 3rd party because they only have 20-26% of the voting block? The rest are Independents & Democrats. But hey! Ban with the losers. I don’t care. It’s your choice.
Jane, please be careful and make sure you’re connecting with people at the heart of the problem, not because you believe in the BS they’ve been conned into believing by their talk/TV show hosts. The reason many Americans fall for this shit on the right is because those hosts, and politicians, exploit people’s real frustrations with the government and corporations, and channel it into hatred of Others, unions, and everything else that will actually help them.
The similar game is played on the Democratic side, where the politicians want us to believe Lieberman, teabaggers, and Glenn Beck are the heart of our problems, not that the administration and the Democratic leadership is heavily corrupted, ideologically supportive of the status quo (neoliberalism), and not interested in rocking the boat (and the same being true for Republican leadership).
Both parties and their hench(wo)men on the radio, TV, and Internet are a common enemy of the American people. They serve to prop up their own careers and the top 1-5% of this country.
This point needs to be made clear, or else you’ll have the same hench(wo)men and politicians on the right exploiting you to claim you’re on Their side, that there’s some war between progressives, and you’ll have people like those on Daily Kos brushing you off as making deals with the enemy, the Republican Party and their cheerleaders, just to get what you want. I imagine, and hope, you’re trying to reach the root of the problem that drives the frustration in American people regardless of their political position.
Jane Hamsher was preoccupied with the public option and when it didn’t happen she freaked out and started this weird kill the bill, join the teabaggers thing. Her famous ten reasons to kill the bill post has a total of 178 comments it’s a dud.
Please, bend over as far as you can to kiss the shoes of the Party of NAFTA, because you all are going to see 1994 all over again, and you’ll have nobody to blame but yourselves. You see, when Dems act like Reps, and this is McCain care more than anything else, liberals don’t do regressive taxation and mandates on individuals, we raise taxes on corporations to pay for general welfare, they get demolished.
I could care less about the Republicans. Most people who are conservative view the Reps as we view the Dems. Jane was speaking past the Fox filter, past the jousting at absurd hyperbole that we see on BillO as much as KeithO, talking real unvarnished truth on issues to real people.
All you all got is cadence, cadence, cadence! Cadence, Cadence, Cadence, CADENCE, CADENCE, CACENCE, CRESCENDO!!!
It’s not irony. It’s hypocrisy.
This bill is unfixable and this congress cannot pass health CARE reform that will make a difference, will not make matters worse.
KayInMaine comes to Jane Hamsher’s FDL website and like a snake and not so openly has a link to her dinky blogsite of which she-Kay lambastes and slanders Jane.
This is how KayinMaine slanders Jane on her little blogsite:
Jane Hamsher of FireDogLake despises Caroline Kennedy but loves sitting down with Fox News!
Posted on | December 22, 2009 | No Comments
OMG, gag me with a snow shovel please!
http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/2009/12/22/jane-hamsher-of-firedoglake-despises-caroline-kennedy-but-loves-sitting-down-with-fox-news/
Geez, Kay, a little jealous of Jane’s successs with FDL? Kay maybe you can work with the Obama White House to have an actual successful blog!
R’s are a 3rd party?
Tell that to the Senate.
If you believe that it’s all about parties and winning, that’s fine and you should demand your pound of purity from whoever.
If you believe that what legislation is made that actually affects people matters, then this shitty mandated for-profit giveaway by the Senate to health insurers legislation should die. With anybody’s help.
The House’s version, without Stupak, should pass, and that’s just not getting through all this noise.
“I met Ned Lamont and had lunch with him and Chellie Pingree in Portland Maine. Can I be part of your group now?”
Why are you doing this Kay? You dont seem to like whats being said so why hang? If I felt like you, I woulda left hours ago. Just sayin…
~~~Flaming other commenters is prohibited, and such comments are subject to moderation.~~~
Jane is a Dem acting like a Rep isn’t she or did I miss something? Hey, say what you want about me but you will never catch me loving Billo to get what I want in life! Never. You and Jane will resort to that sort of thing though. And you can.
That would require about two six packs and 1/2 oz of indica to stomach, but I think I could get that down if I had to.
They’re a very exclusive group. And like me, you’re upsetting their apple cart. Or, as you might put it, their tea cup. Personally, I don’t think most of them are teabaggers. But they’re sure giving those goons a helping hand.
Well, I used to hang here when it was a reasonable site, but today? It’s a Libbagger site. Sad.
I just read the posts now and comment once in awhile…well that is….when I have a stick on hand to scrap the troll crap out of my sneakers!
So with that in mind, I will go back to my little happy life who is looking forward to having some health care reform. I’m with Russ Feingold on this health care reform bill:
Sunday, December 20, 2009
Kay—your hatred of Jane Hamsher is apparent.
It’s also more apparent that you are unable to grasp the main issue at hand here.
I hope someday that you will be able to deprogram yourself from the Obama marketing machine.
Bashing Jane on her site as you have done is typical of a jealous person.
I agree that not all here are teabaggers but man….this blog as a whole has soured! Oh well. Back to my measly little life where I really do make an impact! :-)
Exactly. It’s the American people against the powerful. We’ve been conned into siding with one of two teams, then made to spew their talking points and turn against our friends and family who are on the wrong team, though we all face the same problems in our lives.
One team is slightly better for the American people, but when we weigh that with the negative aspects they perpetuate or accelerate, they’re nearly equal in f*cking the American people and world as a whole.
We have to do a better job at clearly explaining the root of the problem that binds us all. The point that leads Americans to be frustrated enough that they then look for a voice, team, or “movement” to help address their problems and then get lost in the distractions made up by that side, never seeing the common root of our problems.
Yep – I’d need some decent Scotch too, but it has the PO in.
The other thing is to take out the mandate and the Nelson gimme in the Senate POS.
But no PO? No Mandate!
I loved her until she went after Caroline Kennedy. Caroline wasn’t looking for a life long career in the Senate. She wanted to be a filler (and who knows she may have taken it further than that but we’ll never know thanks to Jane!) for Hillary’s seat. It would have been so great to have a REAL PROGRESSIVE LIBERAL IN THE SENATE RIGHT NOW THAT TED KENNEDY IS GONE, but thanks to Jane….she’s not.
Since this time, my opinion of Jane is now lower than my shadow! Sad, but that is the reality.
Your not even paying attn to the responses to you, just hurling insults. Why? Does it help you in some weird way? Just curious…
It was a total win for our side.
By the way, I am NOT A JEALOUS PERSON AT ALL. I am a side-by-side kind of person. Always have been always will be. Being on here? No one to walk side-by-side with! FDL is clicking it’s jackboots to the right wing music. Scary!
Okay, I’m going to bed. Some of us have a job to go to in the morning. :-)
You’re not reading too well yourself, but you’re a teabagger and I expect that. *sigh*
You do know a blog is a conversation and not every point made in every comment has to be discussed to show if one is “cool” or “not”, okay?
Good night Kay. Sweet dreams.
You do realize most articles here rarely get many comments? The comment section is not HuffingtonPost or DailyKos. In fact, when DailyKos republishes points made here by Jon or Jane, the article on DK often get more comments. They just have a larger active user base.
I’m surprised this article has so many comments, but I think it might be due to 1 or 2 users posting non-stop trying to pick a fight with people here, calling everyone teabaggers.
I see we have here yet another ~~~EDITED IN MODERATION~~~ from the State of Maine.”
~~~ModNote: Please let us not go there.~~~
You head into enemy country, make camp, have a positive exchange where it would have been unthinkable just days ago, and leave with the part of the country who is predisposed to hate you for your politics thinking,”Not bad…”
I don’t understand the heat.
Hey Nathan, post that reply as a diary.
Eli is upstairs!
Wanted: Fierce Advocate. Serious Inquiries Only.
KayInMaine,
Again, the issue at hand is healthcare, not Caroline Kennedy.
I like Caroline Kennedy myself. I do not know what Jane Hamsher’s criticisms were about Caroline Kennedy. At the same time, the issue of Caroline Kennedy being a senator has nothing to do with this healthcare debate.
Kay, perhaps, you should email Democrats like Dick Durbin and Diane Feinstein who go on Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace. I mean you can even yell at Obama too for that matter, as he has been interviewed on FOX News…..
So, if it fails, there won’t be any mounting pressure in that same span to do something that isn’t a huge corporate-welfare edifice?
Why would it be revisited in the interim if this passes? Is it more or less likely? Which one gives the industry players money to fight with? Is money a problem in the process?
When people can’t deal with the policy, they attack the messenger. We all do it, and it is always revealing.
Nelson Mandela’s autobiography is “Long Walk to Freedom.” We are a nation of couch potatoes who are about to learn that you’ve actually gotta break into a sweat if you expect the democracy you deserve, which is your birth right.
Uhhhh… criticizing Jane on her site is called the 1st Amendment. I think Jane would back that up. Or are you only interested in an echo chamber where dissenting views don’t exist?
Dianne Feinstein and Dick Durbin never set such an impossibly high bar for themselves concerning Fox as Jane did. Please, wizard, find a quite from either of them (or Obama) that comes even close to this:
Fox is not a news outlet, it’s an openly partisan opinion factory and the Democrats should not be legitimizing them (and allowing them to recruit Democratic viewers to propagandize to) by doing this.
Duh.
You want football, go back over to dK. This is not a Democrat blog, and the moderators won’t let me say what I think should be done to those D partisans hijacking the progressive banner.
That is a very good thing to hear. Thanks for mentioning that.
Psht, it’s easy. Crossing the aisle completely jacks up the worlds of those who depend upon defining themselves by what they are not (such as the D party organization, their “messaging professionals”, and their “messaging amateurs” as seen here). Think of it like the Roman guards at the edge of the Coliseum pointing their spears at the poor contestant attempting an escape.
These are the sorts that stop just short of violence in keeping third parties off the ballot “like G-d intended”. If this were my blog, I’d clean that DLC propaganda right up. At least at AlterNet, conservative talking points are a bannable offense, and I strongly respect them for that.
The First Amendment is not guaranteed on a private blogsite with moderators…
One’s free speech rights are known as limited rights, not absolute rights.
I am quite new to FDL and am not aware of what Jane Hamsher has said about FOX News in the past….Most news outlets peddle lies and propaganda….
The Washington Post, New York Times and NBC are definite peddlers of official Washington Insider lies and propaganda. The Washington Post and the New York Times even issue apologies for their handling of the war in Iraq.
MSNBC Fired Phil Donahue and replaced him with Michael Savage.
I think all the networks are corrupt and liars myself.
Jane, keep up the good work.
The Who song, Won’t Get Fooled Again in particular “..meet the new boss, same as the old…” keeps going around in my brain lately.
I held my nose and voted for Obama, though I had little hope he would do much of anything, in particular with healthcare.
Next round I will vote for whoever I think will actually change something, not just make it their theme, regardless of their chances of victory. I completely regret the vote I made.
I support your efforts appearing on Fox. I know quite a few people that are Republicans, watch Fox, etc. I do not know a single one who is not in agreement with a public option, OR for that the Medicare buy in for 55 and over. The devil is in the details, how to pay, etc.
You have a great deal of courage!!! Keep on keeping on. I said it before and I will say it again, some people are just dolts. I left Kos long ago when reasonable discussions about any candidate but Obama was shouted down.
Jane, on Lanny. I was wondering if he thinks Ed was in on a set up? Anyway, that little segment is one of my most favorite moments of truth on tv!
Wow. A Fox news junkie agrees with you. Never mind that on this issue, it’s most assuredly for reasons diametrically opposed to almost everything you profess to believe, but at least you found common ground.
What a stunning victory for the progressive movement. I’m sure that Fox news junkie is currently writing checks to support FDL and Ned Lamont.
Or maybe, just maybe, you’ve made that person even surer of their position.
‘Even Jane Hamsher thinks this is dog-doo… I must be right’
Why the bitter invective, Kay? Does it make you feel good?
I’m still waiting for someone to explain how Faux “used” Jane, and to tell us all of the benefits that accrued to them by letting her on to say, directly and unequivocally, what’s wrong with this jive-turkey healthcare reform bill, AND, to say it with absolutely zero rebuttal.
Waiting…………………………
(Cricket-herd the size of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir…chirping away…)
Classy. Not like beck at all!!! Right away to the name calling…Take a breath, go outside. Stop living on blogs and do something except cry to a bunch of people about how screwed up everything is…
I’ll be thanking that “Fox news junkie” when he advocates to keep me from having to tithe to the private-insurance oligopoly. He may have no idea why I’m grateful, but I’ll be happy to explain it, and I’ll enjoy the lack of corporate-welfare all the same.
I thought you’d say that.
Since my first amendment rights are not guaranteed here (obviously)”bashing” Jane on her site becomes an issue of the value of free speech, not the legal interpretation of the 1st Amendment.
Just as you’re free to disrespect people with petty insults by calling them “jealous,” or “psychotic,” or “Obamabot,” we’re free to come here and post opposing views. And like I said, as much as I disagree with Jane here, I’m positive she’d back that up.
So if you’re looking for a site where someone is not criticized, I suggest you start your own blog and simply ban all commentary. Maybe that would suit you since you can’t seem to engage in honest dialogue without resorting to blatantly gratuitous insults.
And I’m still waiting for your quotes from Durbin, Feinstein and Obama.
This is moving from being a “lively debate” to being flat-out dumb.
Jane said Exactly the same things she’s been saying all along. No punches pulled. And she pointed out that conservative working people are in the same boat as the liberals. Which, on Faux, is burn-them-at-the-stake heresy.
And there was NO ONE to argue! Not a peep.
If, for some absolutely bizarre and unexplained reason, Fox thought having her on to do this would somehow give them a leg up, then, knowing that they are that boneheaded, I will sleep a little better tonight.
If she had allowed Rupert Murdoch to hold a fundraiser for she and FDL (as Hillary did, in the run-up to the primary race…) then we would have something to bitch about, but if this one was a poker game, Jane, with her sweet little smile, walked out of that with a BUNCH of men’s wallets, as well as their shoes, suits, and their underwear. :o)
Neutral corners, people. We have legitimate targets for our energy, and none of them is participating in this conversation.
Please.
I emphatically agree.
The vast majority of Americans had very high expectations for – indeed, were given by the Democrats every good reason to believe in – what Obama and this Democratic Congress were going to accomplish.
They’re failing miserably.
Total disappointment.
Anything to scare the “bejesus out of the DC establishment of both parties”. It’s what we need. With nearly everyone else going along with the Village, it thrills me to have someone who speaks for me actually being heard in that vast wasteland of the mass media. Keep it up, Jane. You are the greatest, and I think you are very savvy politically. Anyone who doubts that can just take a look a Lieberman’s current BS. You helped almost knock him out by going against the party establishment when you did in the CT primary. STFU is the last thing we need. STFU for the team is how the same old corporate crap gets repeated over and over again.
Bernie Sanders this morning painfully said what we all know, Congress has been brought by corporate interest. (on Morning Joe)
You can see the fear on Dems faces when they talk about the Health Care Bill/ Insurance Profit Bill
The sorry Dems Know, that everyone is watching them sell out to insurance companies. (The way they use to sell out the American people behind close doors is coming to light)
The idea of calling this a liberal bill, is just crazy! (the last time I check rich Insurance Executives don’t vote progressive or support progressive causes)
Every Dem that votes for this bill should be challenge in a primary in 2010.
Let us all please stop calling Obama a Progressive.
If Obama acts like a republican, supports republicans ideas, he is a republican period.
Yeah… because Russ Feingold, Al Franken and Bernie Sanders, just to name a few, have all sold out to the insurance oligopoly. So has Krugman. He’s a notorious supporter of that oligopoly. Of course, as far as I know, none of them have ever appeared on Fox & Friends. And if they had, I can only imagine Jane’s response.
Hey, Larue! Mama-mia! This is a spicy thread…Kind of like the old days at BluegrassRules, huh? :o)
(Also, I just saw Steve Gilliard standing over in the corner, grinning a happy grin. :o) )
I look forward to the day, maybe in 2011 if not next month, when FDL’s members will spell out “Thanks For All You Do” on the field at half-time during the Super Bowl.
I am glad Jane went on Fox and Friends. We are all being screwed – left, right and in between. We need to broaden the dialogue and realize this is an American issue – not owned by any one party.
waitomo,
Yes, I guess, as long as the moderators don’t think you or others are bashing Jane or others, you can freely post whatever you want…
I called people those names in response to their posts….Nice little right wing tactic of your own here in taking the words I used out of context and isoloating the words used….MY FREE SPEECH RIGHTS TOO BUDDY!!!
Waitomo, we all know by now that you think Jane is a “hypocrite” and so on. Yet, you don’t think Obama is a liar and deceiver, either? PLEASE GET ME THE VOMIT BAG!!!!!!!!
Waitomo you cannot be serious that this is a good bill either. I hope you are not that stupid….because if you think this is a good bill than you are stupid indeed.
Waitomo, are you aware that the left and the right came together in Seattle “Battle in Seattle,” in 1999 to oppose the WTO?
The Obama administration has called FOX “News” an ideological network and asked Democrats not to appear on that channel. After the Obama administration took some heat for engaing in censoring other Democrats from going on FOX did Democrats start appearing on that network again.
Waitomo you cannot say with a straight face that the Obama administration are not control freaks.
If that’s true, why did she feel the need to defend herself?
The fact is she blatantly contradicted herself by going on the worst show Fox News offers. All Hillary did was accept an invitation to a Fox News primary debate. And look what she got from Jane.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/democrats-dont-let-democr_b_85116.html
It’s called a double standard. Maybe that’s why some of us are criticizing her.
Despite the revisionist nature of many of your comments, I have a question: Have you not been allowed to type whatever you want in these pages?
Amazing. Reminds me of “Blonde On Blonde”. Dylan would love this. You got an outside line, and a huge new audience. Tomorrow I’m gonna wish I had a TV. Was that respect in Doocey’s eyes? Brava, Jane. And buenos noches.
They have all sold out to their pet issues, and Paul Krugman has been driving me personally nuts lately; with his advocacy of continual low Fed-rates, but without any commentary of the asset speculation its inducing, and without further noting that the point of keeping Fed-rates low is to keep money in the real economy, which at the moment isn’t happening. Cheap Fed money is just shoring up bank balance sheets, and funding speculation. It’s literally doing nothing but forstalling both the necessary collapse of insolvent financial institutions, and the economic recovery for the rest of us.
But then if you didn’t know very much about the topic he’s addressing, you might think he’s got all the ground covered on it.
Unless you are a corporate insurance executive I do not understand why you would be arguing in favor of this bill.
I can’t tell if you’re criticizing her for the double-standard, or because you have some kind of irrational deep seeded hatred for Fox News as some kind of villain caricature. If it’s the former, by all means; have at it. If it’s the latter, then I just don’t understand.
One other thing—I can easily get a list of Leftists, Radicals, Socialists and Marxists who do not care for Obama’s domestic or foreign policies and none of these people could be accused of being right wingers or teabaggers….
Obama is the New face of the American Neoliberal-Military-Corporate Empire which is rapdily falling down. This latest sellout to the Insurance Corporations and the Banks is related to the falling American dollar and the crumbling of the American Neoliberal-Military-Corporate Empire.
Obama is not only the New Face of the American empire but was chosen by the Global Elites of Transnational corporations.
Zizek has a great critique of Obama.
I think you’re not getting the point: I’m clearly criticizing Jane and the moderators seem fine with that. As to your other thoughts, how do they even remotely relate to the issues I’m discussing?
What if I was a right-winger? Would you lobby to ban me? Would you ban me if I thought this was a good bill? Would you welcome me with open arms if I thought Obama was a deceitful liar and this bill was totally destructive?
Talking with you is like talking to a wall. And really, I’m done. But I’m glad you’ve given your blessing to the moderator’s decision to allow me to freely post here.
I’ve been following you since the blogspot days (have the t-shirt) and think this is a brilliant out-flank. The bill is abhorrent so why not bypass the DC players by appealing to others on the side to build a critical mass that will shoot this piece of crap on the table. Critics please avoid “bwahaha” and “troll” – kthxby!
well played, Jane
waitomo,
Yes, in many ways talking to me is a waste of time, in the sense that you will not change my views regarding my core belief structure. Unless you make a great case and present solid evidence.
I am an avowed Leftist-Socialist and even radical for that matter. I am not a right winger.
If you support Obama you are supporting center-right policies. The GOP support “right-right” policies to the Dems center-right ethos. So, to support the Democratic Party is not equal to being a leftist. People again who support this Democratic party are already right-wing on many issues, including the latest Dem policy of selling out anti-choice women. So much for the Democrats being “champions” of women’s rights and reproductive health. I will not talk anout Obama’s waffling on LGBT issues from DOMA to DADT. Yeah, those Dems are just out there fighting for social and econoic justice with all their might and power! PASS THE VOMIT BAG!!!
Worse n a filibuster . . . I can only hang for one or two more sunrises . . . *G*
Myself, I’m gonna pull out War And Peace and start quoting it . . . .
this thread is gonna be its own war and piece.. already over 780 comments and still going strong. how many pages is war and peace dood (laughing)
Jane, do you accept this challenge?
If so, we know that you’ll need help. Count me in!
Frankly, Eshoo and Evergreening will kill thousands and thousands more people than Stupak ever will.
And kill thousands and thousands of women, gays, lesbians, transgendered’s, bisexuals . . .
I’ve heard NOTHING of what’s happening with Eshoo . . . no mention of it Senate side, House side, or from those analyzing all this . . . Eshoo and reimportation alone will kill and kill and kill, year after year after year.
KILL THE BILL!
Force Senate to start over, lost Eshoo and Stupak in House Bill . . .
KILL THE BILL! START OVER! NOW!
Correction from my Post @ 782:
People again who support this Democratic party are already right-wing on many issues, including the latest Dem policy of selling out pro-choice women with an anti-choice healthcare bill in both the House & Senate.
Many Sarah Palin’s in the Democratic Party on this abortion issue….Which Democrat, espeically the so-called “Feminists” in either the House or Senate will oppose the bill on the abortion issue alone in order that Democrats remain the anti-Palin Party? Then again, the Democrats enjoy their status as the number one center-right party. Many Palin’s in the Democratic Majority on the abortion issue.
Jesus Mary and Joseph 786 comments. Are all the Faux News viewers here? Jane you made so much sense. Although on the other hand what Senator’s Harkin and Brown are saying make sense too. Get the pre-existing condition issue, young adults can stay on their parents insurance, they can not boot people off. Harkin has said we will REVISIT THE PUBLIC OPTION ISSUE. For some reason I trust Harkin and Senator Sherrod Brown.
I trust Jane too.
Waitamo @ 772, because she knew that there would be people who wouldn’t understand what she’d done, and people who would twist what she’d said.
I suspect she also knew that it would make for a HOT thread. :o) Which is fine. I like FDL, but sometimes it gets a liiittle kaffeeklatscish around here. :o) The ‘pups need to lay a squirt or two on the nice, shiny, kitchen lino, just to keep it real. :o)
As for comparing Jane and Hillary, as I said, Hillary let Rupert Murdoch hold a fundraiser for her…and can you show us where Jane ever pimped for John McCain as a potentially better commander-in-chief than Obama?
It sure as hell didn’t take Hamsher 5-plus years to discover that invading Iraq was a bloody, wretched, mistake.
About week ago, Hillary joined SecDef Robert Gates and Admiral Mike Mullen, in farting in Obama’s face over his flat statement that despite his sending 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan, he would begin withdrawing troops from there in 2011.
They weren’t getting after him for the surge; they were ragging on him for saying that he would begin REMOVING troops by then.
I don’t recall a thread by Jane, or anyone else on here, for that matter, agreeing with that take.
The simple and unspinnable truth is that Hillary Clinton has never been uncomfortable with having one or both feet in the warbot camp. And to my knowledge, Jane has never been anything but critical of bush’s two shitmires. (They are, or course, rapidly becoming Obama’s two shitmires, and down the road, what happens as a result of this change of ownership is, I think, not going to be pretty.)
Which brings us back to the same question I’ve been asking:
In what way was Jane’s appearance on Fox to hammer on the healthcare bill, and to point out that REAL reform benefits liberals and conservatives, alike, being “used” by Fox?
Can you explain that? And while you’re at it take a shot at the fact that they didn’t even have someone up to argue with her.
I’d say that a bunch of FauxHeads watched that and said:
“WTF! Where’s OUR side of it?” :o)
Hey, I like the numbers…maybe that’s what’s making some of the people at Kos a little antsy. :o)
Ah ya black water diver, it’s good to see ya in here on the side of sanity, again!!!
Best cheap entertainment I’ve had in years, watching the lemmings come out and over the cliff over Mz. Hamsher’s pin pricks . . . she’s on a roll, and there’s more coming . . .
I’m really enjoying watching people lose their undie’s and going purple all over it.
Not to mention, we need to KILL THE BILL! And then see what happens . . .
As things stand now, the Senate is rigged and shit as you know, and the House is gonna neutralized from all I’m reading, and they will cave to the Senate Version.
And shit WILL hit the fan, from this.
And if FISA, TARP, AfPak, and now HCR are not indicators of what’s to come with EFCA, Banking/Fin Reform and any OTHER attemps to rehab America (oh, jobs, no jobs, no real develepment, I bet) then I’m a Shillary Shiller!
Worst first year, ever, for a President ESPECIALLY considering he could have had a place in history like Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Bhudda, and MLK and JFK all in one had he put his foots down in the right places.
Instead, corporate sell out, to the max, and now WE progs/libs get to try and pick up the shattered pieces of shit we’re left with and try to start all over again.
Sigh. On we hope, on we blog, on we do what we can.
System’s broke, it’s gonna get broker . . . then, maybe we can start to fix it.
Till then, Mz. Hamshers has my ear, and my support.
I wrote about this, and I will say it here. Hats off to you Jane. Hang in there. Stand up for what you believe in. Don’t let these Collectivist mother fookers try and scare you.
Keep up the fight!
From your Buddy on ‘da right….
-Pat
I’m tellin ya what to do, but you DON’T want to pick a word war with my pal Tanbark.
He cheats. He uses facts.
*G*
Q. Is there one word name for your philosophy? If you’re not a socialist, are you a liberal? Are you progressive? One word?
A. No, I’m not going to engage in that.
—–President Barack H. Obama answer to a question in an Interview aboard Air Force One with the New York Times from March 8, 2009
WRT to BONB, and Robert Z, you mean the chaos? *G*
And yeah, that Fox Dude was just about as said before, ‘kissing her ring’ in support.
I’ve never, ever seen that on Fox.
Amazing. *G*
“…he could have had a place in history like…”
Thassit, Larue. I don’t know why he misjudged the amount of clout he brought in with him. Of course, some people would say that he didn’t; that he was just fooling us all along. I don’t believe that.
I think he is some overwhelmed with being the boss. And I think that Rahm, a born Machiavelli/pawnbroker, loves the “deal” more than he loves making the real changes that we so desperately need.
And I think he has Obama’s ear with that mindset.
As I’ve said, when O. first came in, I was worried that Fitz would catch Emmanuel in the quid-pro-quo-with-Blago net. Now, I’m worried that he won’t. :o)
I appreciate Jane Hamsher’s devotion, passion, intelligence, commitment and grit in fighting the honest fight regarding this putrid healthcare bill which is not only obscene but vulgar in its delivery.
Thanks Jane. We need more people like you Jane. Take care.
All The Best,
KRC
That’s a good question Soooozzzz!!!
Join in the fray!!!! Yay!
Suzzzzz in da hauz!!!
Over 1,400 pages as a paperback.
Geez, there’s others with MUCH more verbiage!!!
I’m under read!!!
I must be a teabagger . . . . *G*
Let’s see if I can time this to be #800…
…shit.
I’m hoping for a bit of Trumanesque “growing into the office”.
But he needs to hurry. Things happen faster nowadays.
CURSE YOU NATHAN!!! *shakesfistatsky*
800 and HE gets it . . . ;-)
*shakeshead*
lol
Jane, Thanks for this explanation. I saw the piece on Fox and thought you were great and don’t have any issue with using the enemy’s media when the opportunity arises. I posted a diary in which I stated something to the effect that I didn’t see much potential in partnering with the Tea Baggers but after following your latest gambits a bit more closely, I find myself backing away from that claim. I’m getting an education. Keep up the good work.
Yeah, quite unusual for this site even for a post from Jane Hamsher.
I’m guessing it was mentioned on another more popular liberal blog (Daily Kos?) due to a lack of right-wing/teabagger rhetoric, but plenty of “liberal” blog rhetoric in defense of president Obama and this HCR.
Yeah. I was hoping that getting him out of the DCCC would be good. Unfortunately, he went into an even more dangerous position: Back to the White House, where he gets to do to Obama’s administration what he did to Bill Clinton’s — cripple it in its first year by demoralizing the base so much that they stay home. (Rahm did it in 1994 with NAFTA and a few other choice sellouts. Those were far more contributory to the Dems’ failure in 1994 than was not signing a health-care bill.)
Yeah, things DO happen a lot faster now.
And that’s ANOTHER reason that, when people claim it took time to really do Social Security, and Medicare, and such in the past, and that we CAN improve what we have, that I choke on my merlot.
This is NOT the time they refer to in the past, these times and climes will NOT permit tweaking the best we have as we go along. There IS no making this Senate bill as is better in the future, only worse!
This is a direct fight with the corporate overlords who own our elected offals.
We lose this one, the precedent is fully done and the future is dim, dimmer, and dimmest.
Of course, the dimmer shit gets, the brighter red and angry the masses get. That’s NOT a smart move on the part of the corporate overlords, to push this to the brink. And yet, they are.
I don’t get it, it’s suicide on their part, when they could endure forever had they just taken care of the masses.
I just don’t get that . . . . but hey, history is full of such examples, of civilizations dooming themselves at the keeping of the few and the rejection of the many.
Phoenix and Larue…
Hammer-nail-bang. :o) Or, in this case:
Hamsher-nail-bang. :o)
That was a good interview. As someone who doesn’t give a crap who is in power as long as governing is done in the best interest of the country, I don’t have a problem with this sort of thing. It’s also good that folks on that side of the political fence actually see us as real people, not the caricatures that Beck and O’Reilly create of us.
It’s fun, I sure wish you’d come around here more often . . . . *G*
Your status just keeps you off the main page . . . all the other catagories/pages are open to you.
And frankly, I wish they’d re evaluate your status on the main page as you are a valuable contributor to the FDL dialogue and have lots to share . . . .
Jane,
That group on DKos that attacks you and every prominent person who is critical of the president, or what he stands behind, would also be ganging up on Markos himself if it weren’t for the fact they’ve made that site their home. He’s come out against this on TV, just not as strongly as yourself. There is also a fairly good chance some of these users are paid shills for either the administration or the health care industry. Of course, there is no way of know who is who, so you can only assume each person is just quite supportive and defensive of this administration.
I find that the words and the patterns of words and issues and comments and replies all can help one to identify which category any one commenter might fit into. Especially those who don’t quite fit the mold of someone who wants to be a regular, agrees with many on the issues at hand, etc.
Someday, I should break it down and post it . . . but that’s a lot of work and I’m not that motivated to do so.
Yeah, I’m a com studies guy . . . lol
Jane ,
You’ll probably never see this comment 800 or so comments down the road here – but if you’re out there I want you to know that this Progressive supports what you did and how you got the message out.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you and then you win.”
Well, I didn’t get #800, but I get #812 I think, and it’s time to move upstairs and prepare for the LLN Follies, hosted by our MOST Excellent Hostess, Teh Suz!
I’m sure this thread will be here come the sunrise . . . *G*
DAMN! #813! I’m cursed!!!!
gasp
Larue, thanks. I’m tryin’…Siun is all over the clusterfuck(s) and related shit. Always enjoy reading her stuff.
What the hell. Time for a little music. :o) Here’s that clip of Rhonda Vincent, doin’ a solo job on a good old straight-up bluegrass tearjerker, “You beat all I’ve ever seen.” The sound isn’t the best, but still…and, she’s got a couple from the audience up on the stage with her. She does that, nearbout every show.
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/22/why-i-went-on-fox-and-friends/
hat-tip to FlagBabe. :o)
Rhonda likes to bear down on it, even in the slow ones, but folks, she’s the first lady of bluegrass and when she and her band put it into high gear, they can roll it like nobody else. For a little cross-cultural diversion you might want to check them out if they’re in your area. I don’t think you’ll ask for your money back. :o)
(#*@(*#!!! Wrong clip. :o)
Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bRtPqbNj3E
I think that we’re seeing the end of The New Democrat Party.
>flush<
Jane by the number of comments you sure hit nerve today!!
Keep up the valiant quest for good health care for all!! We are behind you!!!
How are the servers holding up there big guy?
Whatta thread! Standing ovation. Nice work Jane, I don’t remember any 800-plussers… The site is stll as much fun as it ever was.
One More Comment!
March to 1,000!
Must Bug The Empire! Cool!