Jane I’m really trying to understand your thinking about how Health Care Reform goes forward after the bill has been “killed”.

I do not disagree with your position vis-vis the corporate health care industry, the mandate, or the loss of a government run insurance option. These things make this bill unpalatable. You are right. But I do not see how killing this bill now gets us any closer to Health Care Reform.

I want to understand your position, I really do. So…

Let’s pretend it 12/26/09. The bill was defeated in the Senate last night by a group of progressive Senators who were disgusted by the antics of Joe Lieberman. You have won. The bill is dead.

How do we get HCR from this point? Please explain, because this is the part I do not understand.

Let’s pretend it 12/26/09. The bill was defeated in the Senate last night by a group of progressive Senators who were disgusted by the antics of Joe Lieberman. You have won. The bill is dead.

How do we get HCR from this point?

sangemon, it seems you may be missing an important point about the calls for “killing” the Senate bill by, ideally, withholding votes for cloture. Such a “defeat” of a filed cloture motion keeps the bill alive in the Senate (instead of alive in the conference committee) where it is still available – at the majority leader’s discretion – for amending, recommitting to committee for further work, or a complete rewrite by the U.S. Senate. Conference reports, on the other hand, as negotiated behind closed doors by Party leadership (not by the formal conferees who simply adopt the end product), cannot be amended in either the House or the Senate.

So declining to move the Senate bill out of the Senate and instead continuing the debate on some of the 400+ floor amendments offered but yet to be considered on the bill, on the principled basis that, despite its Congressional Democrat Seal of Approval, it’s now an extremely flawed product, does not in fact on its own “kill” the bill.

And, realistically, there’s no chance of the actual up-or-down vote going down to defeat (which would effectively end this bill’s run in the Senate), if cloture has already passed with 60 votes. Which, of course, is the current posture we’re now in, thanks to the likes of “Independent” Bernie Sanders, who said yesterday:

The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Vermont.

Mr. SANDERS. Mr. President, I was proud last night to have voted for [cloture on the 300-page Reid Managers' Amendment (first unveiled, but forbidden by Party abuse of power to be amended, two days earlier) to] the health care bill. The reason is, as Senator Tester indicated, this bill accomplishes a whole lot. Before I go on to talk about what I want to focus on this afternoon, I do want to say there are a number of provisions in the Senate bill I don’t support and I hope we can improve in the conference committee by adopting the House language. One is the issue of the public option, with which the Presiding Officer has been so strongly involved. At the end of the day, it seems to me the American people have been very clear. If they are not happy with their private insurance, they want the option of a Medicare type public option. I think we should give them that [but I won't risk ruffling any feathers to ensure that we do...].

Furthermore, as we look at the soaring cost of health care, we understand that one important mechanism to control escalating health care costs is a public option which provides real competition to private insurance companies that are only concerned about making as much money as possible. I know the Presiding Officer has worked very hard in that effort. I hope we can, in that regard, take the House language which includes a public option.

The other area where I disagree with the Senate and agree with the House is on the issue of taxing health benefits for middle-income workers. The House provision raises substantial funding by putting a surtax on the very wealthiest people in the country, people who received huge tax breaks during the Bush years. That makes a lot more sense to me than taxing the health benefits of middle-income workers.

[...]

The reality, however, is that both community health centers and the National Health Service Corps have been starved for funding for many years. We are finally, in this bill, doing right by them.

I should mention, importantly, that while we have placed $10 billion in the Senate bill, in the House bill there is $14 billion. My strong hope, expectation, and belief–and I have talked to the White House about this and the Senate leadership and House leadership–is that when this bill is finally passed, we will adopt the House language which calls for $14 billion.

[...]

Let me tell you why this money is so terribly important. In a few days, the Senate will be voting on final passage of a historic health reform bill that will insure an additional 31 million Americans who have no health insurance. That is a huge accomplishment. About half of the new people who will get health insurance will be enrolled in an expanded Medicaid Program. While this reduction in the number of uninsured is an essential step in achieving reform, we have to ask a very simple question: If 15 million more people go into Medicaid, where are they going to access the health care they need?

It is no secret that today Medicare [he means Medicaid, I think] is a strained program. When some of my Republican friends make that point, I have to say they are right; it is a strained program. That is why expanding community health centers in the National Health Service Corps is so important.

Please note here that Bernie Sanders demonstrates that he not only knows who really runs the secretive conference process, but understands the hidden pecking order of power when he discloses that he has already begun (impotently) lobbying those Democratic Party powers-that-be in private – starting with the White House – in lieu of fighting on the Senate floor, as a federal legislator should, for public, democratic debate and votes on the provisions (filed, but undebated, amendments) he deems necessary and vital to improving healthcare delivery for the nation.

It’s called going along to get along, and Bernie Sanders – longtime Party power-accommodating incumbent of the House – has now clearly demonstrated for all to see that he too serves Party power in Washington, while letting the people and his branch of government bring up the rear somewhere far behind.

Short answer: the relevant Senate committees go back to the drawing board, likely with the House bill as a starting point.

Here is the problem. In the House, you do not have to please every member of the Democratic Caucus to get a bill passed. In the Senate, you have to please every member of the Democratic Caucus to get a bill passed. Otherwise it will just continue to be filibustered and nothing will pass.

I am all for getting a better bill than what is in the Senate. But if the hypothetical “better bill” cannot get 60 votes for cloture, then what use is making the bill “better”?

Thank you for that cogent and detailed response. I get it. No one is really talking about killing the bill after all.

However, it seems that if this is true:

The “let’s get it done so we can move on to other things” argument is full of straw, too. Congress will spend the next year naming post offices and doing feel-good stuff. Nancy Pelosi has already said that the House won’t consider anything until after the Senate does.

Does anyone think that they will take up immigration, EFCA or anything that could be contentious after health care in a midterm election year? Really?

Then nothing will be done on HCR and things will go on as status quo until at least 2011, and then maybe the debate will be restarted?

I dunno, call me crazy, and I don’t know what the right answer is, but this does not sound like a winning strategy.

And if they did that do you think that they would come up with a different bill? What about our Congressional majority? Will it be as strong? Will we be able to do better? Honestly, I don’t see it.

Let’s face it, there are fundamental flaws in this “Kill The Bill” strategy and besides, it’s too late. The Senate has already voted for cloture. They will pass it on Christmas eve. This bill is going to reconciliation and maybe it will get marginally better there. That’s reality.

The question then becomes, working within this context, how can we improve the bill before passage and are we willing to accept what the bill does accomplish (and I find it very disingenuous to insist that there is nothing for Progressives in this bill) and keep working to make it better in the future?

Does anyone think that they will take up immigration, EFCA or anything that could be contentious after health care in a midterm election year? Really?

If the current bill passes, I don’t think fixing it will be contentious only so long as Congress follows public opinion. If the bill fails, I don’t think restarting the effort will be contentious; people are hurting and understand why. But then, contentious issues can be used to motivate voters in a mid-term election.

But in general you are correct. And certainly in the case of EFCA.

the failed strategy, in my opinion, is making deals with Pharma and the industry behind the scenes, and letting special interests write the senate bill. Then demonizing the progressives who are actually fighting for HCR, and championing a bill that entrenches a privatized system of an industry outside of anti-trust laws. It certainly isn’t a strategy of someone who is a reformer or progressive, in my opinion.

This isn’t even about the Insurance Industry profits masquerading as HCR!!

Obama intends to remake the United States into a Free Marketer’s wettest of wet dreams.

This bill is but the proverbial Camel’s nose in the DLC saga of privatizing Public, Lands, Institutions, and Programs. We are facing rabid ideological revolutionary forces and this battle is key. Kill the bill, because it’s bad, but even more so, because it is the first step in implementing a calamitous transfer of wealth in the name of deficit reduction.

Stop Obama, Kill this Bill, Kill the Senate.

There’s a basic structural flaw in the Klein/Cohn/Krugman position, too: that it’s either this health bill or nothing. I believe that’s a false choice.

This bill has no structure still the either this bill or nothing false choice is the First Mistake. Once you start an argument based on false pretenses every conclusion that follows is also false.
Klein and Cohn are morons but Krugman should no better if a student of Paul’s began a Thesis with an undeniably false statement as the Premise would Krugman argue to pass the student?

What do we expect from those who came into the debate compromised, and then compromised on the compromises of the compromises?

After giving up the store before coming to the table, they are not so desperate to pass a bill that they’ve made things much worse than before they began.

Has the Main Stream Media caught on that this bill is more about bailing out the insurance companies than helping people?

The White House has clearly taken an extra large draught of stupid if they think this bill will be a major win in their political ledger.

If there was so much power and the congressional will existed to improve this bill it would already be a much better piece of legislation. I don’t know about you but I’ve worked very hard for years in the community and registering people, protesting with my fellows, writing letters to the editor. The fundamental fault lies with the people in Congress. This bill will financially hurt many many people it will impede young people from higher education because they can’t afford both, and it will kill many more people that is the reality.

Jane, you are heroic. Its funny, ever since you took on Lanny Davis, there has been an overtly aggressive attack campaign launched against you. It seems, to me, the WH is trying desperately to do 2 things: 1) discredit you; and 2) give the appearance there is some progressive support for this bullshit bill by manufacturing it on some progressive sites.

The WH is crazy. If they win this battle, they will lose the war. Come election time, when they need the base to be fired up and ready to go (and vote for them again), the base will not be voting for any one of them who signed this Bill.

Funny, the Dems are so out of touch they think signing this bill saves Obamas presidency. Actually, its the nail in the coffin. If Obama has lost my vote, hes a one-term president.

The reconciliation instructions that Congress already passed continue to be active.

The minute this 60 vote process dies, reconciliation becomes active.

I haven’t heard a peep from them about why the Insurance stocks are skyrocketing, so in short NO.

What do the Dems think will happen when the bill passes, and then Americans find out the hard way it is NOT what the Dems promised?

By dropping it NOW, people will be mad, but will have almost a year to see how skanky the GOP is, if they didn’t know already. If this bill passes, people will think it is good, but will find out the hard way what it really is. And the GOP hopes it will take longer than a year. And it probably will.

Then again, the average American is SO uninformed, they will never know, until it bites them in the butt PERSONALLY.

He could do us all a favor and tender his resignation, in the meantime.

There are two houses of Congress. One of them has passed a bill, the other hasn’t. Assuming that the House is irrelevant, and that nobody should be fighting for a better vision of health care reform through reconciliation simply because we need a “win” right now for political purposes, is at best strategically naive.

I think the pro-passage argument I find most offensive is the suggestion that it is a political imperative for the president and other Dems. The idea that a bill costing the better part of a trillion tax dollars and forcing millions of people to buy junk insurance should pass JUST to avoid embarrassing a political party is simply appalling.

There’s a basic structural flaw in the Klein/Cohn/Krugman position, too: that it’s either this health bill or nothing

that’s interesting, I said exactly that, it’s verbatum, I said it on the krugman thread

I didn’t get quoted though

Sangemon

First this is not healt care reform. (this is an insurance bail out)

Second the republicans will change this HCR bill, all the liberal stuff will disappear in 2011. Quickly (so the idea of 30 million people being covered by this Bill is a Joke, when the republicans get back in power, bye bye Liberal programs)

The idea that republicans can’t vote for this Bill is another Scam.

Third the current HCR bill will hurt the Progressive movement. How? Rush Limbaugh the spoke person for the OwnerShip Class will scream about how this is a Progressive Bill.

The current HCR Bill is not a progressive bill, and we progressive must make sure the masses understand this point.

In 2011 Republicans are going to kill this bill, talking about Fiscal Responsibility. They will rip out of the stuff Bernie Sanders is talking about in a heartbeat. They will leave the mandate alone.

Why? Because this is what republicans do. and yes they want need nothing but 51 senators to do it.

I feel like this whole issue has become Animal Farm. For years Bush and the Republicans were derided for corporate lobbyist influence and backroom deals (in particular what happened with Billy Tauzin). Now that the Democrats are fully in charge, what was bad becomes good and the same techniques that were used by the Republicans (and also derided by the Democrats) to silence their critics are now being employed by the Democrats. I just hate seeing this happen.

Jane says…

“Does anyone think that they will take up immigration, EFCA or anything that could be contentious after health care in a midterm election year? Really?”

Jane, you couldn’t be more wrong about that. I know for an absolute fact that the Democrats will start work on an immigration bill specifically because it is fantastic politics for them.

It helps the Ds with hispanic turnout and it forces the Rs to take a very tough stance, because they know that if they dis’ hispanics it’s bad for their party in the long run, but in the short run the conservative base will hate them for approving any kind of lenient immigration policy.

This bill will make the likes of McCain and Huckabee and Palin side with the left against their own constituents.

How is FDL preparing against the Administration’s rolling coup of privatizing the Public good in the name of deficit reduction?!?

True ‘dat.

Does anyone think that they will take up immigration, EFCA or anything that could be contentious after health care in a midterm election year? Really?

No. I think that the Democrats are going to spend the next 11 months with the single minded focus of getting the employment picture to look better by next November. This Congress, this administration and the entire progressive movement is going to be judged based entirely on whether we are able to prove to the American people that we can deliver jobs, not immigration reform or unions. If we can’t do that, we’re going to lose.

When Obama took office, the country as a whole expected an FDR-like focus on rescuing a terrible economy. Instead, since April as the economy continues to crumble, they have seen Democrats focus almost exclusively on health care, an issue only tangentially related to the economic situation. It has been difficult, and cost the administration a ton of support, to spend so long dealing with health care while the economy continues to go to shit, but it will be worth it to get a bill passed that will cover 94% of residents. But now we either shift the focus back to the economy, or we lose. And losing means the Republicans take power and everything you believe in goes to shit.

If the Democrats announced tomorrow that they were going to go back to basics on the health care bill and get a more liberal bill passed through reconciliation, there would be jubillation amoung Republicans. Reconciliation would mean months of contentious arguments, months of moderate Democrats going on tv to attack their own party, months of the economy continuing to falter and Democrats appearing more concerned with their own agenda than delivering economic improvement for people now. It would be a horrendus error.

You seem basically unwilling to think about these issues from the perspective of serious political strategy. That’s fine, it’s easy enough to do that when you’re a blogger with no actual responsibilities for governing a this country. Fortunately, the grownups of the party are in charge.

Read this crap…..

Donna –

Early this morning, the Senate made history and health reform cleared its most important hurdle yet — garnering the 60 votes needed to move toward a final vote in that chamber later this week.

This marks the first time in our nation’s history that comprehensive health reform has come to this point. And it appears that the American people will soon realize the genuine reform that offers security to those who have health insurance and affordable options to those who do not.

I’m grateful to Senator Harry Reid and every senator who’s been working around the clock to make this happen. And I’m grateful to you, and every member of this community, for all the work you have done to make this progress possible.

After a nearly century-long struggle, we are now on the cusp of making health insurance reform a reality in the United States of America.

As with any legislation, compromise is part of the process. But I’m pleased that recently added provisions have made this landmark bill even stronger. Between the time when the bill passes and the time when the insurance exchanges get up and running, insurance companies that try to jack up their rates do so at their own peril. Those who hike their prices may be barred from selling plans on the exchanges.

And while insurance companies will be prevented from denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing conditions once the exchanges are open, in the meantime there will be a high-risk pool where people with pre-existing conditions can purchase affordable coverage.

A recent amendment has made these protections even stronger. Insurance companies will now be prohibited from denying coverage to children immediately after this bill passes. There’s also explicit language in this bill that will protect a patient’s choice of doctor. And small businesses will get additional assistance as well.

These protections are in addition to the ones we’ve been talking about for some time. No longer will insurance companies be able to drop your coverage if you become sick and no longer will you have to pay unlimited amounts out of your own pocket for treatments that you need.

Under this bill families will save on their premiums; businesses that would see their costs rise if we don’t act will save money now and in the future. This bill will strengthen Medicare and extend the life of the program. Because it’s paid for and gets rid of waste and inefficiency in our health care system, this will be the largest deficit reduction plan in over a decade.

Finally, this reform will extend coverage to more than 30 million Americans who don’t have it.

These are not small changes. These are big changes. They’re fundamental reforms. They will save money. They will save lives.

And your passion, your work, your organizing helped make all of this possible. Now it’s time to finish the job.

Thank you,

President Barack Obama

“I don’t think fixing it will be contentious only so long as Congress follows public opinion.”

Congress follows public opinion? since when?
the public supports a public option more than they do health care reform. this has been ignored.

The public did not support the bailout (as structured, ie no strings attached): it was highly contentionous and still is. this was ignored.

Same with mortgage cramdown. I don’t recall congress listening.

we can go on like this: the war in Iraq for example. Warrantless wiretapping.

in short, congress doesn’t follow public opinion.

Tauzin was a D. ‘Nuf said.

Gee, this you gotta pass this now urgency reminds me acutely of Bush’s legislative strategy. We’ve waited this long what’s another month to get it right?

I am tired of these false choices.

Jane I’m really trying to understand your thinking about how Health Care Reform goes forward after the bill has been “killed”.

There is a governmental institutional impetus for reform which has driven the current legislative action – Medicare Reform. (Remember how Obama said that failure to pass the bill will “bankrupt the government?” He was talking about Medicare reform not “health care reform.”) Once this bill has passed and the Medicare fixes are in place that impetus will be gone. We will never see any further health care reform.

If we kill the bill, they (members of Congress) will still have to deal with Medicare. Since, Medicare and Social Security are the “third rails” of politics, they will need to continue to push “health care reform” as a cover for the cuts to Medicare. We may still be able to parlay the need to fix Medicare into real health care reform but only if we kill this bill.

How is FDL preparing against the Administration’s rolling coup of privatizing the Public good in the name of deficit reduction?!?

Deficit reduction so that we can go further into hock for Af-Pak, because that is so much more profitable than holding Israel accountable under the standards of international law.

Agreed we are getting the Hustle again.

indeed. too bad Saddam Hussein is dead, the democrats could have said “if we don’t pass our incredibly shitty bill right now, he’s gonna hit us with robot drone planes that spray anthrax, and then we’ll REALLY need health care!”

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

I disagree with you on a lotta things (the “punk” movement is one of ‘em) and I get the “heebie jeebies” when you talk about playin footsie with Ron Paul and the real indigenous American fascists but on this you are absouckinlutely right. This is THE signature for Obama andif he wins on this the rest of his administration is gunna make Nixon and LBJ look like fuckin’ socialists. However, a signature failure in the first year of his administration can turn this thing around or at least create a progressve power center in the House of Representatives.

Do you remember why back in August and September, Sister Jane, when I was beatin’ on you to forget about the Senate and focus on the House to direct not only the legislation but the policy on social-economic issues? Well…now we have the crisis moment within the Democratic Party to force a President to step into line behind the progressive base or face a revolt that will kill his administration and make ‘im a one-term failure.

And now is NOT the time to talk about a third party, this is OUR fuckin’ political party, it doesn’t belong to Etna and Goldman Sachs. If it becomes necessary to take this to the streets in the future over the war, jobs and gay rights then we can send Obama, the Clintons and Joe Likuderman down to a special place reserved in Dante’s hell but in the meantime let’s stand up in front of a coalition of Democrats in the House of Representatives and either change this bill in conference or kill the God damned thing alltogether.

Goin’ forward into 2010, our goal as progressives must be to catapult the issues of jobs, the corportate wars in the Middle East and gay and reproductive rights into pre time…I guaranfuckintee you that we can fuck up ObamaRahma’s plan to triangulate the Democratic Party back to minority staus by the time November rolls around next year.

I been spendin’ more time in local Democratic Party meetings lately and I’m here to tell ya that most of the activists out here are NOT demoralized they’re mad as hell!!

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN AMMUNITION, REV. WIGHT WAS RIGHT!!!

Are you arguing that either way, no matter what happens, the Republicans will regain the majority in both houses of Congress in 2010?

Just asking, is he the “black” Bush or the “white” Clinton?

I know for an absolute fact that the Democrats will start work on an immigration bill specifically because it is fantastic politics for them.

It helps the Ds with hispanic turnout and it forces the Rs to take a very tough stance, because they know that if they dis’ hispanics it’s bad for their party in the long run, but in the short run the conservative base will hate them for approving any kind of lenient immigration policy.

This bill will make the likes of McCain and Huckabee and Palin side with the left against the far right.

Let me also add that I believe the liberal outrage from Howard Dean and sites like this have had an overall beneficial effect. I think it has in fact stopped the bill from sliding any further to the right after the public option was taken out of the bill, and may even be somewhat responsible for moving the bill slightly back to the left (e.g. 85% medical loss ratio got put back in the bill, etc). The fact that I think you and kos (not sure about Dean) authentically oppose the bill is part of what has allowed that to happen. Which is cool and all as a political strategy. But to actually oppose this bill is completely insane. It shows a complete disregard for political consequences. And the idea that the pathetically weak public option in the House bill is the difference between a good bill worthy of support and the coming of “neo-Feudalism” is ridiculous.

And your last few posts on the policy of this bill have been deliberately misleading.

So what’s the word on what progressives in the house are doing to improve the bill? It had better be a strong, organized effort or I will be the first in line to help defeat my critter, Lynn Woolsey next cycle.

The Clinton health plan in 1993-4 required each US citizen and permanent resident alien to become enrolled in a qualified health plan and forbade their disenrollment until covered by another plan. It listed minimum coverages and maximum annual out-of-pocket expenses for each plan. It proposed the establishment of corporate “regional alliances” of health providers to be subject to a fee-for-service schedule. People below a certain set income level were to pay nothing. The act listed funding to be sent to the states for the administration of this plan, beginning at $13.5 billion in 1993 and reaching $38.3 billion in 2003. Thank the Lord, the Clintons mashed it up.

What is the matter with you people? Get real. IF JH wants a MSM TV show out of this, give it to her and she can become our favorite talking head. Liebercare is miles ahead of Hillarycare and does not have as its core the HMOs which were part of the Clintons continuing pro Wall Street agenda. Now is the time to get smart and not fall into the trap of sounding like some SDSer from the 60s. No one knows what is going to work.

Lived in the UK for 8 years. Watched privatization from the inside. Bottom line: nothing fucking works, and it all costs more (shareholders, you know).

The house has accepted the senate bill.

I suppose that even those who are extremely angry at this bill would prefer the bill to nothing. I realize that that this is not what the progressives are saying. Their argument is for pushing the Congress and the Senate harder. That is a difficult proposition considering the Obama administration is not with the progressives.

What the health care shows to me is that the progressives do not hold much power in the halls of government. The progressives are in a quandry. Should they accept this health care bill or any other bill on any subject if it is deemed to be better than nothing. If that is case, then the progressives are allowing themselves to be triangulated and they are going to lose at every turn and no one would care what they think.

I love the Neil Young song “Western Hero”. Its words seem to me to apply to eveything we are today.

Frontier town, home of the western hero
Frontier justice, dealt with the iron hand

He wore a long coat to the ground
He wore big boots that made a sound
He wore a six gun on his hip
But now he doesn’t carry it

Sure enough, he was a western hero
On the deck, sighting an old Jap zero

And on the shores at Normandy
He fought for you, he fought for me
Across the land and on the sea
But now he’s just a memory

And in the distance, the rocket’s red glare
The bombs burst in the air
This time we’re never going back

Through the years he changed somehow
He’s different now
He’s different now

Open fire, here comes the western hero
Standing there, big money in his hand
Sure enough, he was a western hero, Sure enough

Thank you!

Finally! Something makes sense to me.

Jane,

I just received your email about killing the bill. Included were these points:

Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits and increase co-ays

Grants monopolies to to drug companies that will keep generic versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market.

Proof reading anyone?

Then again, I guess this issue is far too important to waste time on minor issues such as effective communication of a message.

I suppose that even those who are extremely angry at this bill would prefer the bill to nothing.

No, I would much prefer nothing if it’s going to be the senate bill.

probably arguing that it wont matter to working americans if republicans or corporate butboy dems we have now win. this is more difficult than two party “politics”. I use the scare quotes on “politics” because the word politics carries a connotation of a certain uncertainty of outcomes. in our wal-st owned nation, outcomes are always certain, whoever is paying for the most senators gets the outcome they demand

I’m quite serious here.

I do not believe that the real danger posed by the Obama Administration has been noticed let alone acknowledged by most. They are Free Market Fundamentalists, they have absolutely nothing in common with the people of this country!

This Bill is a symptom of things to come, and it cannot be allowed to pass, or if it does it must not meet with passive acceptance.!

“A long conference committee doesn’t serve anyone’s interests besides Republicans,” one aide said.

HAH!

quite true.

See the link @ 44

Citizen waitomo:

Are you fuckin kiddin’ me??!! Take a pill and go proof-read a good book.

Let’s assume we lost this one—then we won’t be so devastated when all the corporatists begin to crow. Instead let’s plot a response. I believe we have to make heads roll. Not every blue dog or traitor, just enough to know that we mean business and possess a counter to lobbyist and their cash. I say we start with Harry (I know, poor Harry was just Obama’s bitch) as votes have to have consequences.

Out! Out! You concern-trolls of stupidity!

this wont be over, even if OhBummah signs it. too many epople have no idea whats in this POS.

there’s no link yet but a developing story has it that nurses are showing how this bill can hurt some patients

oops, I qupted the wrong person, this is in response to fuckno’s excellant post

that’s a good post, a slight correction please since there is no such thing as “a free market”, the concept is propaganda and it cannot possibly exist, I took some liberty adding an edit

They are Free Market Fundamentalists, propagandists, they have absolutely nothing in common with the people of this country!

eCahn,
Gee, Josh Marshall must be going MSM. I notice alot of predicting(spinning) and reliance on anonymous Senate “aids”.

Not a single named source. MY, MY !

It will be over it 2010 when the pukes get the house and senate back. They will get rid of every progressive piece in this piece of crap bill. It’s too bad that enough people dont pay attention until it effects them personally. This is going to effect everyone personally and I can guarandamntee you that Americans of every stripe are going to mad as hell just like those who already know what’s in it.

Citizen terryd303:

“Instead let’s plot a response.”

See the post upstream at #36. The response has already started but most folks don’t know it yet….by Spring there will be Democrats in the streets if this thing doesn’t get changed or killed.

a guy gets his arm cut off, a republican comes along the guy says will you help me a republican says Hell no and don’t bleed on me.
A democrat comes along and the guy says can you help me the democrats says you are going to need to tie that off and you are going to need a Dr. But the best that I can do for you is this band aid and a Tylenol and don’t forget to vote for me in November. Now that’s a structural flaw!

If you were doing a tiny fraction of the work Jane does every day, you might make the occasional typo, too. This does not change the reality of what she is saying.

How high is that horse, anyway? Nosebleed territory, maybe? Ears popping?

let’s also make certain obama gets liberman to eat his words, lieberman deliberately threw obama to the progressives when he said “obama never pressured me on the public option”

we need to keep hamering and hamering that point, obama cannot claim he fought for the public option and it was lieberman that put his lie to the public

Rahm Emanuels Blue Dog, Rep. Parker Griffith Switches Parties, Becomes Republican.

There, if this doesn’t say it all….

“So let’s remember Rahm Emanuel when we start watching the votes roll in from Bobby Bright (AL), Parker Griffith (AL), Ann Kirkpatrick (AZ), Suzanne Kosmas (FL), Debbie Halvorson (IL), Frank Kratovil (MD), Harry Teague (NM), Michael McMahon (NY), Steve Dreihaus (OH), John Boccieri (OH), Gerald Connolly (VA), and Glenn Nye (VA)– a dozen new voices against progressive values and ideals.”
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2008/11/did-we-elect-rahm-emanuel-last-night-i.html

There is a huge meta Jane Hamsher pie fight raging at the Great Orange Satan, which I think is about as strong an indication as you could find that Jane has had a tremendous impact on this debate.

I, for one, appreciate everything you do, Jane. Even if I should disagree with you, I can see the bigger picture and I know that you are fighting the good fight.

Not that you need the encouragement or my approval, but surely it doesn’t hurt.

Rahm Emanuels Blue Dog, Rep. Parker Griffith Switches Parties, Becomes Republican.

Wow, good thing the Democrats bent over backwards to take it up the ass so that the Blue Dogs could have political cover.

Another scary part of this bill succeeding , it will be the template for all of Obama’s reforms.

1. Cut secret deals with the involved companies.
2. Have their representatives write the legislation.
3. Let congress pretend to argue, then settle for the agreed on bill.

Obama gets millions in campaign contributions (and freezes out the Republicans) in return the industries get to write their own regulations.
Not a future I want to see.

The problem with all the strategizing and gaming is that nobody except the “kill the bill” folks has any vision. Talk about sheeple!

The bill is fundamentally wrong, because it was written by insurance company lobbyists. The insurers love it. Never in a million years would I have allowed such a thing to happen, were I president, and neither should anyone else. What an outrageous betrayal of the American people.

The Democrats have an ‘economic enemy’ in the White House.

Those who have any doubts are willful idiots!

Obama gets millions in campaign contributions (and freezes out the Republicans) in return the industries get to write their own regulations.
Not a future I want to see.

But can those millions of contributions mobilize a base that has been kicked in the gut (and uterus) by Obama and Rahm in November or in 2012?

exactly!

HCR is their fucking ‘dry run’

Chump: “Will this bill lower my premiums?”

Insurance Cabal: “Like nobody’s business!
No seriously, it’s like non of your effing business….It’s ours! HAHAHAHAHAHA!”

The big picture is the whole point.

With no cost controls whatsoever in this bill, how long do you think it’s gonna be before those subsidies that are supposed to provide 30 million more folks with health INSURANCE (not necessarily health CARE) are gonna continue to actually provide that many? It won’t be long before it’s down to 25 million. Then, the premiums are so high and the deficit must be contained, so it’ll be down to 15 million by 2020.

This bill doesn’t address the problems that health care reform is supposed to address. AND, it likely sets a precedent for mandates to purchase goods/services from private entities that will have lobbyists in all industries salavating for decades.

This bill is worse than doing nothing. And it will result in real healthcare reform not being addressed again for another generation. There’s not going to be any “fixes” or “improvements.” I’ll wager anyone here any amount right now on that. Kill this thing. Hell, the House bill isn’t even worth saving at this point, IMO, although it was at least better than this travesty.

Truly unprecedented!

Day of atonement – November 2, 2010 is coming!

Oh, for the love of all that is holy…what is wrong with these people.

Guess I’ll be busy soon trying to get a new House Rep. What a bummer.

Health Care Reform … really?

To paraphrase our favorite Cheney administration war criminal, Donald Rumsfeld …. you go directly from the emergency room into Chapter 7 bankruptcy with the corporate insurance dominated health care system you have, not the health care system you might want or wish to have at a later time.

Everything I’ve heard about this bill leads me to believe that it’s worse than doing nothing would be. The problem is that we have too many elected Dems who have somehow convinced themselves that getting something, anything passed before the next election cycle is going to somehow save them from the electoral pain that they’re headed for next year and possibly in 2012, when in fact passing this bill as is will probably make the next few election cycles even more of a disaster.

sangemon and JADodd,
Doesn’t this same argument hold even if this bill passes? I’m no expert on the bill but do we really believe it solves the Medicare cost issue such that there will not continue to be a need for substantive change in this regard? Sincere question, not snark.

And now is NOT the time to talk about a third party, this is OUR fuckin’ political party, it doesn’t belong to Etna and Goldman Sachs.

*

I am with you here.

Surely, if only once in a blue moon and on something as important as this, we have the right to expect the Democratic Party to act responsibly, to forego self interest, to reject corruption, to do the jobs we’ve elected them to do, simply because it’s the right thing to do and not because they’re being paid off. Surely, there will be a time when so called liberals/progressives will be prepared to stand on principle and hold the Democratic Party accountable.

What will it take for the left to finally decide they’ve had enough of the lies, the deceit, the ineptness, the brazen corruption, bribery and payoffs? What will it take for the left to say it’s had enough of being used, being taken for granted, being played by this President and the Dems? If this blatant fraud that is the Dems’ so called healthcare reform bill isn’t enough, I can’t imagine what it will take.

What’s amazing is the number who call themselves liberals/progressives and who are willing to accept this abject failure that Obama and the Dems have the gall to serve up as the best they could do and then dare to call it healthcare reform.

This bill is anything but reform; at least, it’s not the kind of reform we had hoped for, or the kind of reform Brother Obama and the Dems promised. This bill will further enrich and empower big pharma and the health insurers, at the expense of the already drowning American middle class. It incorporates numerous bribes for the sleaziest of the Dems, and even excludes some insurers from the fees it supposedly imposes on them. Very importantly, it will NOT bring down or reign in healthcare and healthcare insurance costs. Quite the contrary.

It requires average Americans to pay the insurance companies significant amounts of their annual household income for coverage that will be diminished in quantity and quality. Quite literally, it is one of the biggest sellouts ever perpetrated on the American people by either party. Yet the left is willing to accept this Democratic swill. Why? Because this President says we should? Because the crazies on the right will beat their moronic chests and claim victory? Is that why we should accept something that is so incredibly inadequate?

Americans and the Democratic Party will be paying for this disaster for a very long time to come. Certainly, the Party will deserve such a fate, but it’s something the American people haven’t bargained for. They will be angry, very angry. Yes, the Party will get what it deserves.

I could accept the House bill, I think it creates a foundation for reform that actually could be built on. For me, the Public Option is where I draw the line. Even a weak PO will have profound impact on the system for one simple reason and the reason that this bill is not “reform” without it: it changes the paradigm.

The current paradigm is that private insurance companies are the gatekeepers for health care and are the sole arbiters of what gets covered and what doesn’t. The PO gives Americans a real choice; they can pay private companies for health insurance or they can pay the government for health care. Forced to compete, private insurers would have no choice but to provide better care. Even a weak PO would make a symbolic-enough difference, IMHO, to change the paradigm and create the political will for a stronger PO or single payer down the road and is the absolute minimum that I could accept.

Simply expanding and subsidizing a broken system as the Senate bill does is not the answer, it is not reform and if passed, it will come back to haunt us all.

Obama got exactly the bill he wanted, crafted by the industries involved. No imported drugs for big pharma. No public option, antitrust repeal, national across state lines insurer,or Medicare buy in for big insurance and “Trader Rabi Joe Liberman”. Might as well move the Treasury’s printing presses right to the Insurance companies handing them millions of captive customers. The justification to raise rates with the mandated pre-existing coverage and there special accounting rules will be the continued raping of the American populas. Warren Buffet figured out how Insurance companies really work and the “Magic” of being able hide profits in “Reserves” for future claims and IBNR “Incurred But Not Reported” claims and has been buying both Insurance and Re-Insurance Companies ever since and is the biggest in the US and the second largest in the world.

Did you ever say any of this when the Clintons and the Bushes were running the show for the last 20 years?

I really dont’ have a dog in this this fight.

Take, for example, I advocated for “open access” to all three public programs, and to wit, Indian Health Services, the VA’s medical and hospital systemic, and Medicare.

And all done on the premise that Equality comes first in America.

Thusly, my argument collides with the perceived belief that the Republican Party is the Party of Freedom. And whereas, the Democratic Party is perceived to be the Party of Justice. Yet, as a staunch Democrat, Justice is a “moving target” and defined and determined by political operatives. In contrast, my view of “equality” is simply known as the Rule of Law, and from therein, the yardstick that measures Justice comes up short, and not so for Equality.

Jaango

Hello all!

I am new to this website, and take exception to the control corporate interests have suborned the political process with. It’s been about a decade for attitudes in this country to devolve into a “I, Me, My” situation.

I’m not versed in the wranglings of the Senate (I prefer the “in your face” confrontation on the congressional House floor), but since the GOP likely will NOT pen legislation to add on to, I, like a few others ask, how do you get a better bill, once the Senate bill is killed?

I am appalled at what Senate Democrats are calling a victory, but how do we get to an alternative? I’m not trying to be flippant, I want to hear all sides, before I make a determination. It seems corporate interests have infected the Senate, and more than just a few House seats, so, with having to wait til’ after the 2010 election cycle, in which the Democrats may lose a few seats, how do we get there? Or is reconciliation the only avenue? Or am I being naive?

Jane,

Is it true that you went on Fox and Friends this morning? A commenter over on dailykos says that you did. He/she also quoted you as having previosuly stated that Democrats should not go on any of their shows because it’s not a real news org and going on there only legitimizes them?

I too hate this bill but, since it’s so far along and none of the “Progressives” have kept their promise to vote against it without the public option, we’re all going to have to face the facts and try to pressure them into fixing it. Killing it isn’t realistic and we have to face that. It would be better to just make them all aware that we will never give up! We’ll continue to harass the shit out of them. It’s a process. Why the hell should we let them off by walking off in a huff?

You are welcome.

Once we understand that what Obama and rest really want is Medicare Reform, we see why all “health care reform” issues are open to compromise. We need to push back hard. We need to start playing 11th demensional chess. If we refuse to risk everything, we will get nothing.

Hearing the “serious” people in DC tell us we should “hold our noses and accept” this thing reminds me of that really creepy scene in “The Sixth Sense” where this woman is shown poisoning her sick kid, and then admonishing her “Now don’t tell me the soup tastes bad — you know how that hurts my feelings…” The most screwed-up part of this whole situation is hearing the dysfunctional, Beltway-mentality crowd offer us poison soup and then telling us not to even complain about the taste… as if the problem was that we weren’t satisfied, rather than the problem being that the DC crowd makes poison soup and then serves it to us.

Is it true that you went on Fox and Friends this morning? A commenter over on dailykos says that you did. He/she also quoted you as having previosuly stated that Democrats should not go on any of their shows because it’s not a real news org and going on there only legitimizes them?

The Democrats scream like banshees when revealed. They did it to we Greens, and they will do it to anyone who threatens their franchise. When they do it, that is an indication that you’re hitting your intended target.

” this is OUR fuckin’ political party, it doesn’t belong to Etna and Goldman Sachs.”

In your dreams, Norske, because looking at the votes and ObamaRhama, it’s their party!

You and Ariana of the HP have the libs all upset.

I ♥ a fighter.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Actually, I am doing that work attempting to put women’s lives back into the equation. I’ve been doing it for months. Or haven’t you heard about abortion?

And when doing this work, it’s kind of important to not appeer slopy and disurgonized. Because believe it or not, people are turned off by simple errors. And tell me, if you receive a message about something with which you’re not familiar, and it contains basic errors, does that color your opinion of the message conveyed? Of course it does. You don’t take it as seriously.

We’re not trying to reach the choir. We’re trying to reach those outside the doors of the church. So go ahead and keep preachin’ to the choir, brother Jamf.

I’ll be busy trying to make a real difference.

………………….The Barack Express …………………..

You Fire Dog Losers Don’t Have a Clue

Listen to Obama and He’ll Get us Through

When You’re Down on Tom Harkin You Know You’re Wrong

Some of You are Neo-Cons with their Siren Song

So it’s Health Care for Christmas and you folks are Scrooge

With Immigration for Next Year! The Barack Express is Coming Through!

As a huge fan of Ms. Hamsher, who is a heroic Leader who truly cares about what is best for The People, I’d like to share an article I wrote yesterday…
****************************************

My Health Care Reform FLIP-FLOP
” I FEEL GOOD !”

Greg Jones
Blacks4Barack
National Director

I, as many of you, have worked for months toward health care reform and lately some have been surprised by my lack of automatic enthusiasm of the bill as being proposed by the Senate. I have had a number of concerns since my primary objective has always been to see that the needs of the 47 million hard-working Americans who are struggling through life without the basic right to access quality health care are met. I have been very vocal about the vital urgency of affordability and how, without it there should be no mandate. I have voiced my disappointment of the secrecy of the Senate’s process as well as the reports stating that the bill may not go into a full conference for amendments or changes to be made to the Senate’s version, resulting in the bill being signed off basically as-is by Speaker Nancy Pelosi , then sent directly to The President for final signing.

But call it an EPIPHANY. Call it a flip-flop. Call it what you want but the more I see about what this heal th care reform bill will do for those in need, the more I LOVE IT ! Now don’t get me wrong, there are a number of components of the bill that will need to be worked on or improved in the future, but I now truly feel that this is in fact an incredibly historic bill that will save the lives of many. One thing that prompted my transformation and makes me feel very good about the bill is certain things that I heard during last nights debate before the 1AM cloture vote. When I wrote my original draft of this piece I spelled it all out, word for word. Then, after listening to some right-wing radio today, and their declaration to ratchet up any and all obstruction they can muster to block the bill’s passing, I deleted my ‘breakdown’ of what I feel is ahead to make certain of not supplying their much needed ammunition. And forgive my evasiveness but let’s just say that I now have a clearer understanding of what Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Ia) meant when he said that the passing of the bill i s “like buying the starter home; we’re not done”. In fact, he is now openly saying ” we’re going to revisit the public option…next year we can revisit it. There are other ways to get it “. (hope he’s not being TOO open)

So I now see the strategy. An incredibly effective move on the part of the Democrats. They’re going to push this bill through, possibly having Speaker Pelosi sign-off on the bill with minimal changes to get it to The President’s desk as quickly and untouched as possible, and once signed into law, during the formulation period, they plan to slide in some of the changes reflective of what we all want. All hoopla free. Absolutely BRILLIANT.

So yes, I now see the true greatness of what is transpiring here. For the first time in seven Presidencies a health reform bill will be passed that no longer allows insurance companies to refuse coverage to someone because of having a pre-existing condition. For the first time millions of Americans will have access to truly affordable coverage erasing the embarrassing need for traveling, make-shift free clinics like a third-world country. Now, more people who fall in the lower economic bracket will be covered through Medicaid while seniors will have less burden with the so-called doughnut hole they have been forced to deal with. This bill will limit big-buck executive compensation and administrative costs of the insurance profiteers while creating an exchange that will give care seekers various options.

Through the passing of this bill , and thanks to Senator Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) there will be a $10 BILLION investment in community health centers. Sanders has stated that this investment will “help bring about a revolution in primary health care in America and create new or expanded health centers in an additional 10,000 communities. The provision would also work toward creating an additional 20,000 primary care doctors, dentists, nurse practitioners, physician assistants and mental health professionals for expanded mental health counseling”. It is also anticipated that the community centers will save Medicaid billions of dollars by providing primary care to those in need. Sanders is also giving a significant hint of future improvements to the bill by saying, “the day after this bill passes we can improve it’.

While those are but a few of the incredible benefits of this historic health care bill, there are still elements of concern. Although many of the pre-existing clauses kick-in immediately (which is great) the start date for the majority of the plan is 2014, longer than I would like to have seen. The Medicaid costs to states could pose a future problem as states struggle financially. Here in Ohio they have just decided to stop giving prisoners coffee as a way to save money. Due to the fact that the Senate bill allows the insurance co mpanies to charge up to 3 times the normal rate for older aged people and those with pre-existings, there will be a need for stern monitoring of this aspect to assure affordability, something that I feel The President will stay on top of due to his mother’s personal experience with this issue.

One of the other issues that has been of great concern of mine has been the mandate/law which requires all individuals to purchase coverage or be penalized. My concern had always been the thought of penalizing someone for being guilty of not earning enough money. But we are now getting reports, although unconfirmed, that there is what they’re calling a ‘hardship clause’ in the bill which will make those who truly can not afford coverage exempt from the mandate, a component of the bill that I find to be absolutely great.

One thing for sure is the fact that our current health care system has been terrible. I live in Cleveland, Ohio, home of The Cleveland Clinic, one of the finest medical facilities in all the world. But up until now, due to the lack of health care coverage, a large majority of Clevelanders could only hope for the day that they may be able to access such a fine facility. This bill creates that opportunity and serves as evidence of the Democratic idea that, as Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid stating during the cloture debate, “health care is a right” proven by the filibuster proof 60 votes last night which included every Democratic Senator, even those originally labeled as obstructionists like Senators Lieberman, Baucus, Lincoln, Landrieu and even the Blue Dogs, all under the powerful leadership of Senator Harry Reid; all of which-in my opinion-actually deserve a sincere hat-tip.

In my own defense, although I have been a strong supporter of President Obama since 2004, which lead me to create Blacks4Barack in February of 2007 to invigorate and stimulate support toward The Presidency, I will always study the issues to determine what is best for our country and the American people before automatically signing-on. That’s just the way I am. And when it comes to this health care bill…I Feel Good !

Throughout the entire campaign and since day one in office, “Yes We Can” has been the driving motto promoted by President Barack Obama. In just 11 months in office he has achieved more than most Presidents have done in 8 years with much more yet ahead. The passing of this historic health care reform bill will not only illustrate the tenacity, vision and determination of a great Leader, but also displays ‘The Power of WE’…those who have fought the good fight and will continue to do so, working together in Unity, for The Recovery of America. Very special thanks to all of The Warriors….and Thank You Mr. President. Now, it may not be perfect (yet) but let’s get the bill passed !

Greg Jones
B4B

How do you fight a good fight when you’re retreating? The teabaggers reasons for opposing this bill have nothing to do with the reasons Jane and the rest of us have for hating this bill. And, since their party is down to 20% and they couldn’t even stop McCain from getting his ass kicked, exactly how are they going to help us? They couldn’t even stop the cloture vote. They’re just aren’t enough people on their side.

Medicare in is trouble now – meaning within the next 3 to 5 years. This bill puts the problem off for 10 to 15 years. This is why the corporate Democrats have a back up position – this budget commission which will make cuts to Medicare and Social Security with only an up or down vote by Congress. Without the reforms in the Senate bill, Congress will be faced with raising taxes – say lifting the income cap on income for the medicare tax.

Remember, Wall St. owns the government – always has and most likely always will.

Spoke out like crazy, against the Bush/Cheney regime; in truth, less than was warranted, re Clinton.

What’s all that got to do with confronting the fraud that this President and the Dems are serving up? And that’s exactly what it is.

get yuour shit straight; it’s not about t-baggers!!!

I’m curious about something. With all the outrage that this bill is producing, will any of you be voting Republican from now on or, will you just stay home? Yesterday on this site I suggested Jane reach out to those who hate this bill and perhaps get a petition going to get 5 million pledges not to show up in 2010 if the filibuster rule isn’t changed. Maybe instead, should could just have them pledge not to vote in 2010 if this bill isn’t fixed. I think, if you really want to scare them into meeting your demands, you get enough people threaten to stay home and have election night parties and watch them get their asses kicked. We could hold that gun to their heads the way Liberdick did while we still have that leverage. Killing the bill is not possible.

I see a three legged stool to health care reform:
1) Establish health care for all as a right.
2) Establish government rather than a free market as the engine to provide affordable health care.
3) Reign-in the power and profit of the special interests of insurance, pharamceuticals and health care providers.

The bill makes dramatic progress on goals 1 & 2, effecitively placing Republicans at the margins once the bill is realized. There was some progess on creating new levers of regulation for goal 3, but overall the bill at best breaks even.

I think bribing the special interests to achieve significant gains was a smart bargain with the devil. Regulation can be added incrementally, public programs can be added as spiraling costs provide political incentive.

Those progressives who want to KTB obviously defined reform narrowly as smacking-down the special interests. Obama did not choose this direct, frontal assault, his strategy is long term. This bill is one move in a chess match. Its not clear that Obama’s strategy will work, but I’m on board with the program. If it tanks, a more direct government takeover can be pursued.

Fuck you! If you’re going to stand up for the person who my comment was directed at, at least it should be coherant! I don’t suffer cowards who would turn tail and run from a fight. Here kitty, kitty, kitty! Look down and see if you can find your balls!

Yes sir, you are absolutely correct!

This bill is a very positive step in the right direction and Barack Obama is the most awewome public figure in modern history.

Get on the love train everybody!

M E R R Y…C H R I S T M A S…H A P P Y…H O L Y…D A Y S…

truth no. 573:

no elected [edited by mod], not one of them, gives the turd of a rat WHAT is in any of the legislation. it does not matter to them. it is not part of their reality. it is only part of the game. and the end ($$$$$$$$$$$$$) is ALL that counts.

*smoochies* NorskeFlamethrower! you bring good tidings from the field of battle. carry on!

[Modnote: please find another term]

First, I am a proud Independent that watched our corrupt Congress operate for a decade on C-Span. It is painfully obvious that the corporate establishment dictates policy by the legal bribery system of lobbyists donating to the puppet politicians. This is the fight.

The least any American can do is leave both corrupt parties, register as an Independent and vote for fighters that will take on this fight. I thought it would happen after the collapse as I watched the rest of the world protest. It did not but the trust was lost by most Americans.

This fight has not started here yet but it is getting closer as the gop are talking about it on the Senate floor. How do you win this fight?

Sadly, it will take a draft or another collapse for the people to show up to this fight. So, when I see a fighter like Jane I will show my support.

Hope this answers your question.

Greetings! Look foward to your contributions to the discussions here.

I have to go to the bank, so don’t call me a coward if I don’t immediately respond to further insults. I want you to know that I’m not scared!

It really doesn’t but, thaks for trying. Registering as an Independant is nice but, if you’re still going to vote for Democrats what’s the point? I was with Jane right up until she started demanding the bill be killed. Again, doesn’t much of the blame fall on those Progressives who lied to Jane when they said they wouldn’t vote for the bill without a public option? By the way, which party do the only 2 Independants in the Senate Caucus with? Unless you’re going to vote Republican, switching your party affiliation is mearly window dressing.

If you’re looking for Obama hero worship, you’re barking up the wrong tree here, at least as far as I am concerned.

You go get on your love train, I’m going to keep fighting for better progressive policy even if that means I have to fight Obama for it.

You’re welcome.

Since you make a big issue of it in an election and some Congresscritters lose their seats as a result. You are exactly right that all those things that the public supported (or opposed) were ignored in the decision by Congress. The candidates that point that out and go after the miscreants will get votes in 2010 that they might not otherwise get.

Is that going to be the progressives or someone else? That’s the only question.

Because if we don’t have a strong election issue campaign on those issues, it will be used to put the other half of the establishment back in office.

Capiche?

O.K., Here we go.

I became a Democrat because of this fight (I was apolitical before), and saw for myself the infection of corporate interest, and what it was doing to Congress. Then the bill went to the Senate, and surprise! More corporate interest. I couldn’t sit and listen to ANY politician who didn’t at least have a cogent answer to why people were dying in the richest country in the world (which we are giving up to the Chinese), and no support of any kind for them. In fact, many “pundits” against healthcare reform just marginalized them, effectively putting them in a group they don’t think deserve anything.
I fought for my country in Iraq, and many other locales around the world, and saw for myself, the healthcare systems of many a third-world country. Suffice to say that a few would put us to shame. These are THIRD-WORLD countries!
Anyone who is against healthcare reform, as far as I can see, have a myopic vision of where they want this country to go. What they don’t or can’t see is that if we don’t have anti-trust laws restricting the influence they currently have (The Ayn Rand followers are wincing, right about now), we are doomed to a failure greater than the recession we are now in, or the crash of 29′.
I didn’t go to war for this. I didn’t fight for corporate interests. I fought for my neighbors, my friends, all of you out there, even the baggers, deathers, birthers, Palin sycophants, and yes, Republicans. Like it or not, we need both parties to continue to call ourselves Americans. I don’t think beating up on Republicans is beneficial. They have an equal stake in this country’s future.
It’s corporate interest all of you should be pissed off at. That’s what Jane, I believe, has been saying.

“The 150,000 member National Nurses United, the nation’s largest union and professional organization of registered nurses in the U.S., today criticized the healthcare bill now advancing in the U.S. Senate saying it is deeply flawed and grants too much power to the giant insurers.

“It is tragic to see the promise from Washington this year for genuine, comprehensive reform ground down to a seriously flawed bill that could actually exacerbate the healthcare crisis and financial insecurity for American families, and that cedes far too much additional power to the tyranny of a callous insurance industry,” said NNU co-president Karen Higgins, RN.

NNU Co-president Deborah Burger, RN challenged arguments of legislation proponents that the bill should still be passed because of expanded coverage, new regulations on insurers, and the hope that it will be improved in the House-Senate conference committee or future years.”

There ya go.

Forgot the link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/22/nations-largest-nurses-or_n_400765.html

Except for the last 9-10 years of his career.

You don’t necessarily need the full 60 to get legislation jammed through the Senate. More smoke and mirrors they are selling the public. Revisit the Bush years (I know, ick) and you will notice the GOP did it all the time. But that is what you get when you have a party with chutzpah running the show.

Secondly your statement “I am all for getting a better bill than what is in the Senate. But if the hypothetical “better bill” cannot get 60 votes for cloture, then what use is making the bill “better”?

Well for starters, it keeps a really bad bill from getting passed through the Senate. A bad bill is NOT better than nothing at all.

And thirdly, for you and all who are defending this shit piece of legislation, I must respectfully ask you – Did you read the bill or are you buying and repeating talking points. Once you read the bill and allow for the hacking and the abortion amendment, the lies we are being told on this are very blatant and appalling.

Like it or not, we need both parties to continue to call ourselves Americans.[...]It’s corporate interest all of you should be pissed off at.

Fine then. It costs several grand but I’ll be happy to call myself Canadian.

The two major parties ARE corporate interest and exist only because the rich prop them up. The idle rich do not want wealth redistributed downward. This is a bottom-line stand, and the “two”-party system is a vital and useful tool in doing so. In the event the D party should consistently swing against the rich (i.e. anywhere left of center-right) on economic matters, the idle rich and the media will likely fire them and transform, say, the Libertarian Party into their second proxy army to keep the culture war hot.

You don’t necessarily need the full 60 to get legislation jammed through the Senate. More smoke and mirrors they are selling the public. Revisit the Bush years (I know, ick) and you will notice the GOP did it all the time. But that is what you get when you have a party with chutzpah running the show.

What Bill Maher said eight years ago is worth saying again now. Reid is standing strong for his masters. This is no cowardice.

Immigration is a really, really hot potato. It could potentially be as toxic as healthcare- esp if they do the same thing they’re doing now & pass it anyway. Wasn’t it in 2007 that they tried to get an immigration bill passed and people threw such a fit, they dropped it? That was quite awhile before all the job losses really kicked in.

I agree.
This is all about Corporate Welfare, Trickle-Down economics.
First Wall Street, then the Military-Industrial Complex, now the Insurance Corporations.
Congress holds us hostage, then opens the coffers to the Rich & Powerful.
Don’t know if this boondoggle will really help a lot of people,
But your right, there’s nothing we can’t do about it.
You can’t fight City Hall or the Rich & Powerful
with elections, petitions etc.
the only thing they respond to is civil turmoil like the 30′s (unions) and 60′s.

Yes, I remember the GOP and their Nuclear Option threats. Had they actually used it, they would have been wrong in doing so. And if the Democrats use it now, they would be wrong as well. Using the nuclear option is lying in order to get your way. Because in order for it to work, the Senators challenging the ruling have to all say that you can end a filibuster with a simple majority when the senate rules clearly say that you cannot.

I don’t see this as being a “really bad bill” and I have read much of it… but even if you do… it still has to go to the conference committee. You could pass a piece of toilet paper as the Senate version if you wanted… because the most important piece of legislation will be what comes out of the conference committee, not what goes in.

Precisely my point for effective anti-trust laws. I did say like it or not.

Your later points make sense, however. It’s all about redirection, and we are so stupid, and are amused so easily, that they feel they can do anything, which they are.

In this instance, anti-trust laws are really the only answer. Notice how fast the anti-trust language was removed from the Senate bill? The very first. That should be all the evidence anyone would need, but alas…….

I wish people were able to broaden there scope and look for solutions in places they haven’t searched yet, rather than stubbornly looking to Congress as if they were the only salvation. It should have been clear long ago that the WH and Congress have a very narrow focus in the laws they make and the public’s interest is not included. Why continue to petition Congress?

Let’s instead show some imagination and look to see what solutions lie within ourselves collectively. Just one idea is to not abide with the mandate to buy insurance sign a petition to that effect. If it falls on deaf ears in Congress no matter if carried out it will render the HCR plan unworkable.

Some show of non-compliance is needed.

To answer your first question, I, of course, will not be voting Republican. However, in the past I have argued that voting for third party candidates – regardless of their political or policy position – was a waste of a vote. After this round, I have am wondering whether voting for a Democrat is a waste of a vote.

Right now I am trying to decide whether to hold Democrats collectively responsible for this mess. By that, I mean should I withhold my vote from all Democrats in the next election? In my state, the party discourages and usually defeats any efforts to run a primary challenge – particularly from the left.

If you really think that helping Republicans win is the best way to prove your point to the Democratic party then go right ahead.

Of course, depending on your district, you would have failed to learn the lesson that the teabaggers also failed to learn in NY-23… that supporting people who are more further away from center than the candidate supported by the party only tends to help a candidate who you really don’t want in there to win.